Latest / The You Project / #2091 Borderline Personality Disorder - Kelsey Packwood

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#2091 Borderline Personality Disorder - Kelsey Packwood · The You Project

0:01
Speaker 1: I'll get eight champions. I hope you're bloody terrific. It's
0:04
Speaker 1: the project that's you. It's a Thursday. It's all going
0:09
Speaker 1: on over here at Camp Harps and Camp Tip will
0:11
Speaker 1: introduce our guests in a moment. TI if I didn't
0:13
Speaker 1: want to tell you this because I didn't want you
0:16
Speaker 1: to cry af air, but I have some news. So
0:21
Speaker 1: tell everyone what time it is as we're recording.
0:24
Speaker 2: It's ten am.
0:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's ten oh four five. Let's be honest to
0:30
Speaker 1: go on, go on. The Jumbo Jumbo's going into hospital
0:33
Speaker 1: at twelve fun Jumbo's going in for new ears.
0:39
Speaker 2: I think I spent three and a half seconds and
0:41
Speaker 2: thinking you were getting a dog today, And you have
0:43
Speaker 2: no idea the excitement that brewed inside my body that
0:47
Speaker 2: now it will not dissipate.
0:48
Speaker 1: And I'm conferable the dogs. What about what about my hospital?
0:54
Speaker 2: I tell you what's very brave, and I'm so proud
0:56
Speaker 2: that you're fixing your ears.
0:59
Speaker 1: Well, I would be much happier getting a fucking Golden
1:02
Speaker 1: Retriever puppy, but this is what today requires. So Kelsey, Hi, Hello,
1:11
Speaker 1: how are you?
1:12
Speaker 3: I'm good? Also, I would be much happier if I
1:15
Speaker 3: was getting a Golden Retriever puppy as well. I had
1:18
Speaker 3: one a long time ago.
1:19
Speaker 1: But yeah, well I'm getting a new puppy this year,
1:23
Speaker 1: so Tiff is probably, i would say, on a par
1:28
Speaker 1: with me in terms of excitement, And I somehow think
1:33
Speaker 1: she thinks that it's kind of somehow going to be
1:36
Speaker 1: kind of her puppy, which I feel like, I'll come
1:43
Speaker 1: home from something and the dog will be gone, and
1:46
Speaker 1: there'll be a small note from Tiff going, no need
1:49
Speaker 1: to worry, all good, yeah, no good, Yeah, and then
1:54
Speaker 1: I'll have to ring the cops and go, there's a
1:55
Speaker 1: fucking dog napping that's gone on, and I'll have to
1:59
Speaker 1: send them a photo of her. It's going to be
2:01
Speaker 1: a whole thing. It's going to be messy anyway. But
2:05
Speaker 1: uh yeah, yeah, fuck my is, let's get Let's get
2:08
Speaker 1: a puppy. That's a much better idea. How long go
2:12
Speaker 1: did you have a Golden Er Treva Kelsey?
2:14
Speaker 3: Oh? Like, I adopted my dad's friends Golden Retrievers when
2:19
Speaker 3: I was like in middle school, when we moved across
2:21
Speaker 3: the country and when we moved into because we stayed
2:25
Speaker 3: with them for a while when we moved into our place.
2:27
Speaker 3: We got she was older, she wasn't a puppy, but
2:31
Speaker 3: she her name was Angie. She was blind. So this
2:33
Speaker 3: was back in the mid twenty tens and we had
2:39
Speaker 3: it for like four years, and we didn't know she
2:41
Speaker 3: was blind when we got her, but shortly after we
2:43
Speaker 3: realized she couldn't see because she was bumping into the walls.
2:48
Speaker 1: So yeah, Jiff does that too. She bounced into things,
2:53
Speaker 1: but only when she's hungry because she can't focus on shit.
2:56
Speaker 1: So you give her a copkake or a cookie and
3:00
Speaker 1: her set and Nev comes back on lawn. So it's
3:05
Speaker 1: all right. Well, so Kelsey, tell my uh listeners, who
3:09
Speaker 1: you are? What do you do? Like, what what's the uh,
3:13
Speaker 1: what's the deal with you?
3:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, my name is Kelsey Packwood and I am
3:18
Speaker 3: a filmmaker, and I guess in the umbrella of filmmaking,
3:24
Speaker 3: I would say I'm a director, a writer, producer, and
3:28
Speaker 3: an actor and I've been focusing on telling a story
3:32
Speaker 3: about mental health and borderline personality disorder. So yeah, if
3:38
Speaker 3: you had asked me a year and a half ago,
3:41
Speaker 3: I couldn't have told you I was a director. So
3:43
Speaker 3: that's kind of been a newer hat that I'm wearing,
3:48
Speaker 3: but it's been it's been a comfortable hat. It felt
3:51
Speaker 3: like I I definitely fell into that pretty easily.
3:55
Speaker 1: So that's the Uh, what's the being the biggest learning curve?
4:00
Speaker 1: You producing, directing, writing, or acting? That's question one and
4:05
Speaker 1: question two? Where are you in your natural Habitat the
4:08
Speaker 1: most I.
4:10
Speaker 3: Would have told you it was acting, but I think
4:13
Speaker 3: I think producing because you can just like make a
4:16
Speaker 3: list of things and make them happen. And I don't
4:18
Speaker 3: know how, but I was able to make a lot
4:20
Speaker 3: of things happen to make my pilot. But also what's
4:24
Speaker 3: been the most challenging is the marketing aspects, like the
4:27
Speaker 3: you know, social media strategy. I feel like I'm learning
4:31
Speaker 3: a lot, but it's it's so cool to take something
4:34
Speaker 3: that you created out of nothing and then like share
4:36
Speaker 3: it with the world, but it's it's hard to get
4:38
Speaker 3: things out there sometimes undersent.
4:41
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, even podcasting obviously different thing,
4:47
Speaker 1: different level, but film producing, writing, obviously, acting, directing, and
4:54
Speaker 1: even marketing it's like you might have this great thing,
4:56
Speaker 1: but no one knows about it. Well, good good luck
5:00
Speaker 1: making a few bucks, right so, and good luck having
5:03
Speaker 1: a commercial. Oh it's amazing. No one's seen it, by
5:06
Speaker 1: the way, but it's amazing. It's like I'm the most
5:09
Speaker 1: brilliant artist in the world. Nobody's seen any of my work,
5:12
Speaker 1: and nobody's bored a painting. But I'm super gifted, which
5:15
Speaker 1: is nice. But yes, so I feel like all of
5:19
Speaker 1: that stuff is constance problem solving. Like I did three
5:26
Speaker 1: podcasts before this that didn't work, Like that didn't work commercially, right,
5:31
Speaker 1: they were okay, but you're like, okay, first one, what
5:34
Speaker 1: do we learn? What went okay? What went shit? What
5:36
Speaker 1: do I need to do more of less of? What
5:37
Speaker 1: didn't I understand? What do I understand now? How do
5:40
Speaker 1: I need to be different? What did the audience want?
5:42
Speaker 1: What's going to resonate? How do I share this idea
5:45
Speaker 1: in a way that's not complicated but still explaining the
5:48
Speaker 1: guts of the idea while being relevant for the average person.
5:51
Speaker 1: And then version two, and then version three, and then finally,
5:55
Speaker 1: you know, the fourth installment or the fourth Incarnation, which
5:59
Speaker 1: you're currently sitting on the new project. Even that took
6:02
Speaker 1: about six hundred episodes before it was like for me
6:06
Speaker 1: worth doing financially. You know, we're over two thousand now,
6:10
Speaker 1: But I literally spent three or four years just trying
6:15
Speaker 1: to figure out this this podcast algorithm, Like how do
6:20
Speaker 1: I Because I know the shit that I know is
6:22
Speaker 1: relevant to people, and I know I'm a little bit
6:25
Speaker 1: amusing and a little bit interesting at times sometimes a
6:27
Speaker 1: fucking idiot also, but how do I how do I
6:32
Speaker 1: operationalize what I have in a way that people are
6:35
Speaker 1: going to want to come back and want to you know,
6:37
Speaker 1: So for you, how are people going to Are people
6:39
Speaker 1: going to want to come to your next show or
6:42
Speaker 1: your next doco or your next whatever it is. So
6:45
Speaker 1: I feel like it's high level problem solving on an
6:48
Speaker 1: ongoing basis.
6:50
Speaker 3: Totally, and you can't get too comfortable because you can
6:53
Speaker 3: plateau a little bit and everything that you were saying.
6:56
Speaker 3: I feel like I went through all those phases of like, Okay,
6:58
Speaker 3: I have an idea. I know that this is a
7:01
Speaker 3: large problem that if we can get enough attention and
7:05
Speaker 3: enough heads together to do enough research and really educate
7:09
Speaker 3: the public, then I think that this is a topic
7:12
Speaker 3: that won't be so stigmatized, won't be so terrifying for
7:16
Speaker 3: people to talk about. So it's just like, how can
7:18
Speaker 3: I then translate that into a twenty eight minute episode
7:21
Speaker 3: of television that engages my audience, has them relate to me,
7:26
Speaker 3: and then makes a difference, makes an impact, and then
7:31
Speaker 3: has that person spread the word and say, hey, I
7:33
Speaker 3: saw this really amazing thing. And what I've noticed is
7:36
Speaker 3: I've had a lot of support in the BPD community specifically,
7:41
Speaker 3: because if you know BBD, if you know somebody who's BBD,
7:44
Speaker 3: you know how challenging it is. You know how painful
7:46
Speaker 3: it can be, not just for the person who's suffering
7:48
Speaker 3: with BBD, but the people around them. And so I've
7:53
Speaker 3: noticed that you can have like such a powerful, amazing
7:57
Speaker 3: project and like, unless people really start spreading the word
8:01
Speaker 3: for you, it's very difficult to get anywhere. But then
8:06
Speaker 3: at the same time, it's like it doesn't happen overnight.
8:08
Speaker 3: So four years sounds great. I came up with my
8:11
Speaker 3: idea four years ago. It took me three out of
8:13
Speaker 3: those four years to then film it, and then a
8:16
Speaker 3: year of getting it into the right hands to be seen.
8:21
Speaker 3: So it's anything worthwhile. It takes a lot of time
8:24
Speaker 3: and care, tender look.
8:26
Speaker 1: And for every one of you, there's another ten thousand
8:29
Speaker 1: of you, fifty hundred thousand of you with kind of
8:33
Speaker 1: the same intention or similar or similar drive or similar aspirations.
8:38
Speaker 1: You know, in the podcasting world. I think it's like
8:40
Speaker 1: the average podcast loves last seven episodes and almost one
8:46
Speaker 1: hundred percent, but not like ninety nine point five percent
8:49
Speaker 1: of or more podcasts make zero dollars like zero, you know,
8:54
Speaker 1: they don't have sponsors. They don't actually, which is fine.
8:57
Speaker 1: I mean, if all you want to do is have
8:59
Speaker 1: a podcast and talk to cool people and hang out,
9:01
Speaker 1: then you're succeeding if that's your goal. But yeah, to
9:04
Speaker 1: actually take your idea and then turn that into a
9:08
Speaker 1: creative success, a financial success, a personal success, and something
9:13
Speaker 1: that's potentially doing some good in the world where this
9:17
Speaker 1: information and inspiration and education is needed. That's that's not
9:21
Speaker 1: a quick or easy process, right.
9:25
Speaker 3: Right, you know, and it goes with it. I was
9:27
Speaker 3: thinking about this with all kinds of art or major ideas.
9:31
Speaker 3: Like a song, it couldn't exist if this person didn't
9:34
Speaker 3: write it first. They make the money after. But yeah,
9:37
Speaker 3: you don't even think about that. When they're like the
9:39
Speaker 3: biggest star in the world. You're like, oh, they have millions, millions.
9:41
Speaker 3: Like when you really strip it back, it's like, well,
9:44
Speaker 3: initially they had to come up with the song first.
9:46
Speaker 3: They came out of them. And that's what I think
9:48
Speaker 3: also happened with me, Like these words that I wrote,
9:51
Speaker 3: they came out of me, almost without me even thinking.
9:54
Speaker 3: It just was in me and it just happened. So
9:57
Speaker 3: there is some spiritual element to it too. I think
10:00
Speaker 3: when you're passing on knowledge or showkissing art at a high.
10:07
Speaker 1: Level, I agree tif to you. You might not. I don't,
10:10
Speaker 1: I should, but I'm old, you're young. The dude that
10:13
Speaker 1: we had on who wrote a book like twenty years ago,
10:17
Speaker 1: a really good book, but it didn't sell like it
10:20
Speaker 1: didn't you know, it did Okay, he probably sold a
10:23
Speaker 1: few thousand copies, but it didn't catch fire. And then
10:26
Speaker 1: about a year ago, a major league baseball player was sitting,
10:30
Speaker 1: you know, like he was in the game, as in
10:32
Speaker 1: he was playing, but he was sitting in the dugout
10:34
Speaker 1: waiting for his turn to bat or whatever, and he
10:38
Speaker 1: was reading this guy's book, right, And so the TV
10:42
Speaker 1: camera zoomed in on this book and they're like, what
10:46
Speaker 1: is he reading? And then the name of the book
10:48
Speaker 1: came up, and then the producers research it in real
10:52
Speaker 1: time and they're like, oh, this guy wrote this book,
10:54
Speaker 1: it's about that, And then they kept cutting back to
10:56
Speaker 1: this guy who's literally in the middle of a game
10:59
Speaker 1: obviously not his turn at bat or whatever, but and
11:04
Speaker 1: he was yes, And so that dude Kelsey went from
11:09
Speaker 1: oblivion to doing all the national talk shows in a week.
11:14
Speaker 1: He got booked out for speaking, like his book became famous,
11:17
Speaker 1: and he became famous. I should remember anyway, I interviewed
11:21
Speaker 1: him really good, dude. I feel bad, but I've interviewed
11:25
Speaker 1: two thousand people, so I don't feel that bad.
11:27
Speaker 3: But you know, it's like a lot of pieces and
11:30
Speaker 3: names to remember. Yeah, he'll be calling incredible story. I mean,
11:34
Speaker 3: that's that's that's totally the magic of life. And yes,
11:39
Speaker 3: you can't even create that energy that just that just happened.
11:43
Speaker 3: That's that's incredible. I love that.
11:45
Speaker 1: I love this. I'm just going to if you figure
11:47
Speaker 1: that out, let me know, just interrupt me. You don't
11:50
Speaker 1: need to. By the way, Kelsey is the writer and
11:57
Speaker 1: creator of Borderline, a half hour traumity. I've never heard that,
12:00
Speaker 1: but I understand that's. I love that word. That's clever,
12:04
Speaker 1: a half hour traumany scripted series based on her lived
12:07
Speaker 1: experience with Borderline Personality is sort of BPD. Kelsey's directional
12:13
Speaker 1: debut of Borderline premiere at Sony Picture January sixteen, twenty
12:17
Speaker 1: twenty five. So pretty much this time last year. Well
12:23
Speaker 1: done you. I mean, I don't know, I'm not going
12:26
Speaker 1: to ask you how old you are, but you look
12:27
Speaker 1: fucking twelve. So well done. I mean it's like, you know,
12:33
Speaker 1: I look like I could be a great great granddad.
12:36
Speaker 1: But that's that's amazing. Did you How did your friends
12:42
Speaker 1: and family respond to you know, I'm sure you're very
12:46
Speaker 1: talented and always have been. But did they go, of
12:48
Speaker 1: course you did that, that's what you do, of course,
12:51
Speaker 1: or did they go, how the fuck did you pull
12:53
Speaker 1: that off?
12:55
Speaker 3: You know, that's so funny. I think that, Like I
12:57
Speaker 3: think my immediate family isn't totally surprised. But the story
13:03
Speaker 3: is about my dad and I. You know, when I
13:06
Speaker 3: get diagnosed with VPD, there's a rift in our relationship,
13:10
Speaker 3: and so you know, he wasn't really around for those
13:14
Speaker 3: years where I was creating the show and rewriting the scripts,
13:18
Speaker 3: and so when it came time to make the movie
13:21
Speaker 3: and get it all done, and by the time my
13:23
Speaker 3: dad had seen it, he had no idea what to expect.
13:26
Speaker 3: He had no idea what quality to expect. I mean,
13:30
Speaker 3: first time making my own film didn't mean that I
13:33
Speaker 3: hadn't experienced many film sets. So it all somehow seamlessly
13:38
Speaker 3: came together down to, like the fundraising elements of I
13:42
Speaker 3: had exactly what I needed when I shot the pilot,
13:45
Speaker 3: you know, and I didn't have what I needed for
13:48
Speaker 3: post production, so I raised that later. But when I
13:52
Speaker 3: did my little call out on my Instagram asking, hey, like,
13:56
Speaker 3: I have these roles, these positions to fill on the crew,
13:58
Speaker 3: and you know, don't have a lot of money to pay,
14:02
Speaker 3: but maybe I will when I raise it. Does anybody
14:05
Speaker 3: want to work on this thing? Two day shoot like
14:08
Speaker 3: in April of this year, And so yeah, it just
14:13
Speaker 3: kind of just worked. And so I don't think I
14:16
Speaker 3: even realized how quick it all happened and how well
14:22
Speaker 3: it went until I saw it for the first time,
14:24
Speaker 3: Like until I was with my editor Chris Rosenbloom, who
14:27
Speaker 3: he was such a life saver and such a talented
14:30
Speaker 3: guy who gave his whole heart to this project. And
14:34
Speaker 3: by the time that we could watch it for the
14:36
Speaker 3: first time, all the way through that roughish cut that
14:39
Speaker 3: we got together, I was like, oh, wow, like this
14:43
Speaker 3: is this is going to be something, This is going
14:45
Speaker 3: to be something special. I mean, I thought it would,
14:47
Speaker 3: but I know it now. And then it was another
14:50
Speaker 3: couple of months until my dad got to see it,
14:52
Speaker 3: and I knew that he wouldn't be surprised because I've
14:56
Speaker 3: always been a performer and he hadn't known me as
14:59
Speaker 3: a filmmaker. But in the end, he wasn't surprised, but
15:04
Speaker 3: he definitely he didn't know what to expect. I didn't
15:07
Speaker 3: know what his reaction would be. And what I was
15:09
Speaker 3: surprised about was how well he took the movie, because
15:13
Speaker 3: it's a lot about the fractured relationship. You know, it's
15:17
Speaker 3: very it's complex, and there were so many call outs
15:22
Speaker 3: in the film that were directly for him, and my
15:26
Speaker 3: mom knew everything along the way, so you know, it
15:28
Speaker 3: wasn't as much of a reveal. But I think it's
15:32
Speaker 3: been a pleasant surprise, and it's also brought my family
15:35
Speaker 3: closer together, which is, you know, it was the hope
15:38
Speaker 3: when I made it, and so the fact that it
15:40
Speaker 3: ended up happening that way is just kind of like, wow, Okay,
15:44
Speaker 3: you can do something like out of you know, love
15:47
Speaker 3: and pain and grandiosity, you know, like I wanted to
15:53
Speaker 3: change my life, and I wanted to tell a big
15:55
Speaker 3: story and I thought, Okay, let me strip it away
15:57
Speaker 3: and let me get back to the basics. And what
16:00
Speaker 3: is the most core relationship you have on this planet?
16:05
Speaker 3: And it's with your parents. And when you start having
16:08
Speaker 3: mental health issues and start realizing patterns in your family
16:12
Speaker 3: and behaviors, and then like your lived experience is dependent
16:17
Speaker 3: on like the experience that they had with you. It's
16:20
Speaker 3: it's very it's it's wild when when you just strip
16:24
Speaker 3: it all away and like talk straight to your family,
16:28
Speaker 3: your your parents. So I don't think there was any
16:31
Speaker 3: surprises on their end, but for me, I was surprised
16:35
Speaker 3: at how well received it was.
16:37
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I write something on social
16:41
Speaker 1: media about that. Dioh yes to die about the spice
16:46
Speaker 1: between being gifted and being skilled. Like, so you know,
16:54
Speaker 1: you have you borne with certain abilities or gifts or talent,
16:57
Speaker 1: innate talent, right, but you didn't earn it, you didn't
17:00
Speaker 1: create it, you didn't work for it. You just have it.
17:04
Speaker 1: But then there's what you do with that, you know.
17:07
Speaker 1: So I was like, I don't have many gifts at all,
17:09
Speaker 1: but I was probably of all the things, you know,
17:13
Speaker 1: I was probably a reasonably gifted communicator even as a kid,
17:16
Speaker 1: Like I could bullshit my way in and out of everything,
17:20
Speaker 1: you know, and talk with adults when I was ten
17:22
Speaker 1: and have adult conversations. And but then, you know, as
17:27
Speaker 1: you move into what I do now, which is corporate
17:30
Speaker 1: speaking and podcasting and the odd bit of university lecturing
17:34
Speaker 1: and talking to teams and athletes and all that stuff,
17:38
Speaker 1: you realize that how good you You know, like, your
17:42
Speaker 1: your talent is finite, but your skill is the one
17:45
Speaker 1: thing that you can develop so that you can become
17:48
Speaker 1: a better producer, better actor, better director, better marketer, all
17:53
Speaker 1: through work and effort and paying attention to the outcomes,
17:57
Speaker 1: like what are my results telling me what I need
17:59
Speaker 1: to do more or less of? Yeah, And I think
18:02
Speaker 1: there's that when you're born with something, you go especially
18:05
Speaker 1: if that's something that talent is something that you happen
18:09
Speaker 1: to be passionate about. Well, that's a beautiful running start.
18:12
Speaker 1: But then what it matters is what am I going
18:15
Speaker 1: to do with this? Like this thing that I have,
18:18
Speaker 1: like TIFSA an athlete, box are genetically gifted. I'm not
18:23
Speaker 1: genetically gifted. And then you go, like I've said to
18:26
Speaker 1: many times, well you know, so you've got an athletic body,
18:30
Speaker 1: You've got amazing genetics, and now what matters is what
18:33
Speaker 1: we do with that, you know, skill and training and
18:35
Speaker 1: adaptation and kind of getting uncomfortable. And I feel like
18:41
Speaker 1: that that for many people as a limiting factor where
18:44
Speaker 1: things come really easily when they're young. You know, it
18:48
Speaker 1: might be with sport, might be with academia, it might
18:51
Speaker 1: be with I don't know, solving problems. But then sometimes
18:55
Speaker 1: they don't keep building on that as they get older.
19:00
Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember as a kid, I had this strong
19:03
Speaker 3: pull for TV and film, and I didn't know anything
19:07
Speaker 3: about it. I didn't know what a showrunner was. I
19:09
Speaker 3: didn't know where Hollywood was, Like, I had no concept.
19:13
Speaker 3: And I slowly gained because I was in New York
19:16
Speaker 3: with my with my parents, I mean, they weren't together,
19:18
Speaker 3: so I was kind of back and forth. So my
19:20
Speaker 3: whole life consisted of, you know, going to my mom's
19:23
Speaker 3: house for a couple of days out of the week,
19:24
Speaker 3: going to my dad's. I was like, I was more
19:25
Speaker 3: focused on, like where we were going to be, where
19:29
Speaker 3: I was going to be not like what was out
19:31
Speaker 3: in the world. I only knew what I knew, and
19:34
Speaker 3: so it's been wild to to learn more and then
19:38
Speaker 3: learn what is possible and like that you can create
19:41
Speaker 3: things for yourself and also like that, yeah, you can
19:45
Speaker 3: have that gift, but when it comes to being the
19:48
Speaker 3: best version of yourself, you need to set yourself up
19:50
Speaker 3: for success. You know, you need to position yourself to
19:54
Speaker 3: even have this thing that you're creating, like land correctly.
20:00
Speaker 3: So I totally know what you mean. It's it's you
20:03
Speaker 3: can see it. I think pretty clearly with people like that,
20:07
Speaker 3: just how easy certain things are for certain people, or
20:11
Speaker 3: how how some people like you know, they need to
20:15
Speaker 3: work a little harder and do a little more. Like
20:19
Speaker 3: you know, in school, when you're there's theater school, where
20:22
Speaker 3: there's like a music school, and like somebody's like better
20:25
Speaker 3: than you. There's always like somebody who's better than you.
20:27
Speaker 3: So like there's a balance between trusting and then also
20:34
Speaker 3: just sharpening and constantly absorbing from the universe to see
20:38
Speaker 3: what you can take from the world and what you
20:40
Speaker 3: can learn so that you can implement those things going forward.
20:44
Speaker 1: I might be being very presumptuous when I'm thinking you
20:48
Speaker 1: probably don't listen to a lot of Joe Rogan.
20:51
Speaker 3: I don't.
20:53
Speaker 1: Good assumption hops. I have a recommendation for you, which
20:58
Speaker 1: I think you might even say an email and go thanks,
21:01
Speaker 1: that was good. So Ben Athleck and Matt Damon are
21:04
Speaker 1: talking with him and it's a nearly three hour just
21:08
Speaker 1: rambling conversation about their creative process production, you know, creating
21:14
Speaker 1: a team, creating, you know, working with different people, rewarding
21:18
Speaker 1: the people that they work with, and it's just a
21:21
Speaker 1: very very you know, like they're smoking, they're drinking booze,
21:24
Speaker 1: they're hanging out, and it's just yeah, it's a really
21:31
Speaker 1: good listen and like, I'm never going to make a film.
21:34
Speaker 1: I'm not a filmmaker. I'm never going to make but
21:36
Speaker 1: just listening to how they solve problems in that space, create,
21:41
Speaker 1: build connection, rapport, trust, respect, do their job. Yeah, I
21:45
Speaker 1: would have a listen to that if I was you.
21:47
Speaker 1: It's probably if you just go into the JR. Jo
21:50
Speaker 1: Rogan experience. I think it's the most recent one or
21:53
Speaker 1: the last one. But yeah, you're.
21:56
Speaker 3: Like, well, there are some of the ogs who wrote
21:59
Speaker 3: their own thing, wrote parts for themselves and pushed things
22:03
Speaker 3: together and packaged films together to create the life they
22:08
Speaker 3: have and now, I mean, they're at the top of
22:10
Speaker 3: their game. It's really a beautiful thing to watch people
22:14
Speaker 3: who have dreams execute them to the point of creating
22:20
Speaker 3: a life beyond the work too. I mean, it's pretty magical.
22:25
Speaker 3: And I feel that way about the project that I've
22:26
Speaker 3: been working on. I've had so many people reach out
22:28
Speaker 3: to me who have BPD or who are family members
22:32
Speaker 3: of people who have VPD, who've lost people who've died
22:35
Speaker 3: by suicide because of their worderland personality disorder, and it's
22:40
Speaker 3: been that's how I know that this feels greater than me,
22:46
Speaker 3: you know, like it feels. And the reason why I
22:49
Speaker 3: wanted to create a show specifically about it was because,
22:53
Speaker 3: I mean, I know that I started feeling better when
22:56
Speaker 3: I had more psycho education about BPD. And there's so
22:58
Speaker 3: many people who just don't have the resources or the
23:01
Speaker 3: energy to go out and get the help that they need.
23:03
Speaker 3: There's just so many people who just can't They can't
23:07
Speaker 3: find comfort, they can't find a calmness in the storm.
23:13
Speaker 3: And I know that the people who end up getting
23:16
Speaker 3: hospitalized psychiatric hospitalization, I mean, fifty percent of them exhibit
23:22
Speaker 3: traits of orderline personality disorder. So if it's such a
23:25
Speaker 3: gigantic number of people who are constantly in the fire
23:31
Speaker 3: in these hospitals, but yet like there's no clear answer
23:35
Speaker 3: except for maybe hospitalize them, maybe put them on some
23:38
Speaker 3: drugs for a couple of weeks, a couple of months,
23:41
Speaker 3: a couple of years, and see how they do. Versus like, Okay, well,
23:44
Speaker 3: how do we how do we get to the core
23:46
Speaker 3: of the problem, which is the nine symptoms, the chronic
23:52
Speaker 3: feelings of emptiness and loneliness and helplessness, you know, the
23:55
Speaker 3: fear of abandonment to the point of frantic efforts to
23:58
Speaker 3: avoid it, and the suicidality. It's such a major problem
24:03
Speaker 3: that I think is only getting worse. And this project,
24:07
Speaker 3: I mean, I hoped that when I made this project
24:10
Speaker 3: and it started with a pitch deck, you know, it
24:13
Speaker 3: always starts nice, like little pitch deck to say like, hey,
24:18
Speaker 3: here's the concept. And so I said, if I can
24:21
Speaker 3: just like if I was sending it out to people
24:23
Speaker 3: to read, friends, family, random people, executives like directors, I
24:28
Speaker 3: was just really open with spreading that word. When I
24:32
Speaker 3: was in Los Angeles and I remember this one girl
24:37
Speaker 3: who's friends with a friend of mine, and I was
24:40
Speaker 3: telling her about it, and then a couple months later,
24:43
Speaker 3: my friends said, oh, yeah, she got diagnosed with BPD
24:45
Speaker 3: after reading your pitch deck. So that was like the
24:47
Speaker 3: first example of wow, Wow, if I could just change
24:52
Speaker 3: someone person's life and give them some sort of education.
24:55
Speaker 3: What they do is they read what I'm saying about
24:57
Speaker 3: the BBD and now the pilot, and now that it's available,
25:01
Speaker 3: now you can see what I'm saying about BPD, and
25:03
Speaker 3: it can go, hey, maybe that's that's a little bit
25:06
Speaker 3: like me. And instead of holding that fear and shame
25:09
Speaker 3: of oh reading up on BPD on the internet and Google,
25:16
Speaker 3: you can actually just like see a version of it
25:18
Speaker 3: where we humanize it. And and you know, I was
25:23
Speaker 3: I was happy with just one with one person telling
25:26
Speaker 3: me that they got diagnosed or that it helps them.
25:29
Speaker 3: But what I've noticed is that there's such just a
25:32
Speaker 3: continual support of people who have reached out saying I
25:37
Speaker 3: have this, my sister has this, my mom is undiagnosed,
25:42
Speaker 3: I lost my daughter to this, and that that hasn't stopped.
25:47
Speaker 3: So it's pretty amazing to see how like you can
25:53
Speaker 3: tell when something is supposed to exist, and the goal
25:58
Speaker 3: is to change the way that the world view use
26:00
Speaker 3: mental illness because I don't think we've cracked the personality
26:03
Speaker 3: disorder world. You know, there's a lot of them. There's
26:06
Speaker 3: cluster A, Cluster B, Cluster C, and out of all
26:09
Speaker 3: of them, bpds, I think I think it's like the
26:13
Speaker 3: only one that like that I know a lot about.
26:19
Speaker 3: So it's like if I if I don't even know
26:21
Speaker 3: about like all of these other ones. I know there's
26:24
Speaker 3: four personality disorders in cluster B, and if I don't
26:26
Speaker 3: even know about the other one, like we haven't even
26:28
Speaker 3: begun to describe the surface. So there's a lot of
26:32
Speaker 3: work that needs to be done. But there's a lot
26:34
Speaker 3: of people out there on this planet who are trying
26:36
Speaker 3: to do that work. And I actually think there's more
26:38
Speaker 3: people with personality disorders walking around them we think.
26:43
Speaker 1: You know, probably it's funny because like understanding the human
26:50
Speaker 1: brian and the human mind, and more broadly just understanding
26:53
Speaker 1: humans throat, it's it's pretty fucking complicated, and it's pretty complex,
27:02
Speaker 1: you know. It's like with my PhD. My PhD is
27:07
Speaker 1: on psychology, but it's metapception, which is your ability to
27:12
Speaker 1: understand how other people perceive and process you. Right, So,
27:16
Speaker 1: in other words, what's the Kelsey experience like for Kraig
27:19
Speaker 1: and Tiff in this moment and your ability to have
27:22
Speaker 1: some insight into that. It's kind of like a development
27:25
Speaker 1: of theory of mind. But when people go, oh, so
27:30
Speaker 1: you you know, doctor of psychology, and I go, ah, well,
27:36
Speaker 1: like technically yes, but then depending on where I'm at.
27:40
Speaker 1: If I'm at a cafe, I'll pick up the sugar
27:42
Speaker 1: and I'll go look into this jar of sugar. How
27:45
Speaker 1: many grains of sugar do you reckon herre in there?
27:48
Speaker 1: They go, fuck, five, ten thousand, I go, yeah, so
27:51
Speaker 1: one of those grains of sugar is what I've spent
27:54
Speaker 1: six years studying. Right, It's like to study a component
27:59
Speaker 1: of human behavior, and even within the context of meta
28:03
Speaker 1: perception and meta accuracy, there's so much more. And I
28:07
Speaker 1: just think that you know, like we it's almost a misnomer.
28:12
Speaker 1: I think sometimes doing like when you come out you
28:14
Speaker 1: graduate and you have you know, you're a doctor in
28:17
Speaker 1: psychology in effect, but you really don't know most of
28:22
Speaker 1: what there is to know at all, Like you might
28:25
Speaker 1: have a bit of an insight, but it's not really like, well,
28:28
Speaker 1: in this very very small sliver of awareness, consciousness, social intelligence,
28:37
Speaker 1: self awareness, in this very small space that is still
28:41
Speaker 1: broadly relevant, but it's still a small area of research
28:45
Speaker 1: relative to the totality of it. Yeah, I know about that,
28:50
Speaker 1: but all the other stuff, you know, do you ever
28:52
Speaker 1: find that that people assume because you have a pretty
28:55
Speaker 1: good understanding of mental health or human behavior of psychology,
28:59
Speaker 1: that people assume you'll know about that other thing because
29:02
Speaker 1: that also falls onto the umbrella.
29:05
Speaker 3: Right right, And then it's like what do what does
29:09
Speaker 3: anyone know? You know? And also so many professionals who
29:14
Speaker 3: it's easy to say things and then not see them
29:18
Speaker 3: in your own life. So it's kind of hilarious how
29:21
Speaker 3: we can be very clear on things when we look
29:24
Speaker 3: at other people's experiences, or like advice we would give
29:27
Speaker 3: a friend, but if we had to take that own advice,
29:29
Speaker 3: it'd be harder for us to even accept it. So
29:31
Speaker 3: it's yeah, the research on things and the knowledge on things,
29:34
Speaker 3: but then also just implementing those practices in your everyday
29:37
Speaker 3: life is it's fascinating. It's so funny how complex we are.
29:41
Speaker 3: And that's a part of the human experience. And I
29:44
Speaker 3: keep saying, you know, I wouldn't want to have been
29:48
Speaker 3: less deep and less intense in my life, like I
29:52
Speaker 3: feel like I've lived my life to the fullest because
29:54
Speaker 3: I feel deeply. So it's a conundrum. But at the
29:58
Speaker 3: same time, I'm happy for all this knowledge. I know
30:02
Speaker 3: I don't know everything. I know that there's so many
30:05
Speaker 3: different ways that we can perceive all this information, and
30:09
Speaker 3: that we haven't even begun to understand the mind. I mean,
30:11
Speaker 3: the brain is so fascinating, and the fact that we
30:13
Speaker 3: can study it in any capacity is the fact that
30:17
Speaker 3: there's any sort of research down it is a miracle.
30:20
Speaker 3: I always think too that the fact that we can
30:22
Speaker 3: see and hear and taste and everything is such a coincidence.
30:27
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, we had a British we had a
30:32
Speaker 1: British neuroscientist on the other day and we're talking about
30:36
Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff, and I said, all there is
30:39
Speaker 1: to know about the brain, like, you know, if what
30:42
Speaker 1: there is to know is a hundred of what's possible,
30:45
Speaker 1: that's there's nothing else anyone could know. If that's one
30:48
Speaker 1: hundred percent, what do we currently know? And he goes
30:53
Speaker 1: less than one, less than one, he goes less than one.
31:00
Speaker 1: You guys, we think we know seventy percent, but we
31:03
Speaker 1: know less than one. It's like that we don't. Yeah,
31:06
Speaker 1: we know more than we used to. We understand more.
31:08
Speaker 1: We've got better tools, better you know, research capacity. Sure, sure,
31:13
Speaker 1: we've really progressed. But you know, it's just there's a
31:18
Speaker 1: galaxy of knowledge ahead of us to discover, you know.
31:23
Speaker 3: So yeah, but I find that connection has been the
31:27
Speaker 3: most strong energy that I have felt, or maybe not
31:33
Speaker 3: human because even like dog connection, just like creature being connection,
31:39
Speaker 3: it's just there's a mystical element to it. And I
31:43
Speaker 3: remember being a kid and watching Harry Potter and Sabringa
31:47
Speaker 3: The Teenage Witch and having dreams of like, oh, I
31:50
Speaker 3: have little magical powers and I can fly, and then
31:53
Speaker 3: waking up and saying, I'm so depressed. I can't do
31:57
Speaker 3: any of those things. Magic isn't real. And the older
32:01
Speaker 3: I get, the more convinced I am that magic is real,
32:04
Speaker 3: you know, with all the energy that we have on
32:06
Speaker 3: this planet, because there's been too many coincidences. And you
32:09
Speaker 3: can see in the pilot, I did a bit of
32:14
Speaker 3: a version of that in the end because I have
32:18
Speaker 3: this basically this girl. It follows my story of this
32:22
Speaker 3: girl who doesn't want to be alone, and so the
32:23
Speaker 3: whole day she's trying to avoid being alone, and she's
32:26
Speaker 3: forcing it, she's forcing connection. She's she like, wants to
32:30
Speaker 3: talk to her therapist or therapist. The session is over,
32:32
Speaker 3: she can't afford it anymore. Okay, well, that option is done.
32:35
Speaker 3: She tries to call her dad. He doesn't want to
32:37
Speaker 3: pick up the phone. She goes on a date, but
32:39
Speaker 3: the date can't handle the intensity of the relationship, especially
32:43
Speaker 3: since it's like a new relationship. And in the end,
32:45
Speaker 3: she feels like she's failed, you know, like she's incapable
32:50
Speaker 3: of human connection, she's incapable of sharing a moment with someone.
32:56
Speaker 3: And yet like there's and I won't give it away
32:59
Speaker 3: for those who haven't watched it, but there's just there's
33:02
Speaker 3: moment directly after a deep moment of suffering that's almost
33:07
Speaker 3: manifested in the exact way it's needed. And I've found
33:12
Speaker 3: people have asked me if that was a true incident
33:15
Speaker 3: that occurred, and I said no, I had to script
33:18
Speaker 3: it very specifically, just to make sure that the arc
33:21
Speaker 3: of the story landed. But what I did was I
33:24
Speaker 3: took elements of my life that I had experienced in
33:26
Speaker 3: deep moments of suffering where I would pray or I,
33:31
Speaker 3: you know, would talk to a stranger, and it was
33:35
Speaker 3: shocking how talking to a stranger made me feel more
33:38
Speaker 3: hurt and seene than talking to some people that I
33:41
Speaker 3: on my entire life. And so I have this new
33:46
Speaker 3: view of, like, actually, there is magic if you're willing
33:49
Speaker 3: to listen and open your eyes and look around the corner.
33:51
Speaker 3: And that's another thing that I think about the mind
33:53
Speaker 3: is that it's so such a powerful thing. And if
33:56
Speaker 3: we don't know ninety nine percent of what else is
33:59
Speaker 3: out there, then isn't there more like percentage chance that
34:05
Speaker 3: we can actually like completely create the life that we
34:09
Speaker 3: want and that we can heal ourselves and we can
34:13
Speaker 3: do the things we say we can't. Because if we're
34:15
Speaker 3: so sure about what we know we can't do, or
34:19
Speaker 3: we're so sure about what we know we can, I mean,
34:23
Speaker 3: I think that there's so much chance that we actually
34:26
Speaker 3: don't know the full story. So I like to add
34:30
Speaker 3: a little element of whimsy and hope to the to
34:35
Speaker 3: the hard stuff, you know, because there's a lot of
34:38
Speaker 3: people who've reached out to me as well, who maybe
34:41
Speaker 3: have been really scared or struggling, and nobody has time
34:43
Speaker 3: for them, you know, nobody has time to talk.
34:45
Speaker 1: And yeah, the beauty.
34:47
Speaker 3: In it is that, like, I might not know this
34:49
Speaker 3: person for longer than a day or a couple of weeks,
34:52
Speaker 3: yet we've made a lasting impact. And actually I've had
34:55
Speaker 3: people do that to me, where they've in moments where
34:58
Speaker 3: I was really really alone, They've reached out and and
35:04
Speaker 3: you know, been there like and said something at the
35:07
Speaker 3: perfect moment for me to change my perspective on the struggle.
35:11
Speaker 3: Because life, you know, as beautiful as it can be,
35:14
Speaker 3: it also is uh unpredictable and a little terrifying sometimes.
35:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know what what fascinates me? And Tiff
35:25
Speaker 1: and I have spoken about this and a few guests,
35:27
Speaker 1: But is the stuff that you know that you haven't
35:31
Speaker 1: been taught, You haven't read it, you haven't studied it
35:34
Speaker 1: quiet you haven't a quieted And there's shit that you
35:38
Speaker 1: know and you do not know, you do not know
35:41
Speaker 1: how you know, like nobody told you, nobody taught you,
35:44
Speaker 1: you didn't read it, but you just know shit. And
35:46
Speaker 1: then one day something happens which goes one hundred percent correct,
35:50
Speaker 1: and you're like, I fucking knew it. I knew it.
35:53
Speaker 1: And what I don't know, if that's instinct, didn't tuition,
35:56
Speaker 1: luck or whatever. But I feel like, I don't know,
36:01
Speaker 1: maybe it's a spiritual or a cellular or a physiological
36:05
Speaker 1: or a cognitive carryover from generations past that my great
36:09
Speaker 1: great great grandma knew something and now I know it
36:12
Speaker 1: because somehow I got it. I don't fucking know, but
36:15
Speaker 1: I do know. I like that. And as a scientist, I,
36:21
Speaker 1: you know, I should be skeptical and I should go, no,
36:24
Speaker 1: that's bullshit. There's no data for that. You don't have
36:26
Speaker 1: data for that. I'm like, fuck the data. Sometimes it's like, yeah, sure,
36:32
Speaker 1: science is great, but also there's this thing, and if
36:35
Speaker 1: we think that science is the totality, the start and
36:38
Speaker 1: finish of what there is to understand and experience in
36:41
Speaker 1: the universe, we're fucking idiots, because science is a man
36:44
Speaker 1: made construct anyway, right, It's just something we created to
36:49
Speaker 1: look through a particular lens to try to understand stuff.
36:53
Speaker 1: Who makes the science rules? Humans? Who interprets the data, humans?
36:58
Speaker 1: Who tells the stories to the people who aren't the
37:00
Speaker 1: scientists the scientists, do you know?
37:03
Speaker 3: So?
37:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, science is good. Also flawed, also ignorant, also brilliant.
37:10
Speaker 1: You know, I love that pactic.
37:12
Speaker 3: It's dialectic. It's two truths at the same time being true.
37:16
Speaker 1: Look at you, look at you? Hey, all right, So
37:19
Speaker 1: I want to ask a few specifics. Did your dad
37:23
Speaker 1: say anything to you about the show the film?
37:28
Speaker 3: He said, he's so proud of me, and that he's
37:35
Speaker 3: he he's ready to change the things that he couldn't before.
37:43
Speaker 3: It was so symbolic. Yeah, it was symbolic of so
37:47
Speaker 3: much we'd been through, so much. He raised me and
37:50
Speaker 3: we took this time apart. And I remember the first
37:52
Speaker 3: time that I had spent a lot of time with
37:56
Speaker 3: him in person, because I saw him briefly once, but
38:00
Speaker 3: then I like spent like a couple of weeks with him,
38:03
Speaker 3: and there was questions that I was like, oh, I've
38:05
Speaker 3: been I've been waiting to ask, and they're hard ones.
38:10
Speaker 3: So I said, like, hey, like, how did you feel
38:14
Speaker 3: when I was gone? Because like a lot of it
38:17
Speaker 3: was him choosing not to answer the phone, like in
38:20
Speaker 3: that beginning portion the first couple of years, And I said,
38:24
Speaker 3: how did you how are you feeling when you didn't
38:27
Speaker 3: know what was going on with me? Or when I
38:29
Speaker 3: was feeling suicidal and you didn't know if I was
38:32
Speaker 3: going to survive it. And he told me he was heartbroken,
38:37
Speaker 3: and it was so interesting because I said, like, if
38:40
Speaker 3: you were so heartbroken, why didn't you call? And it
38:43
Speaker 3: was just so fascinating to have this like strange conversation
38:46
Speaker 3: with this person who I used to be so close with,
38:49
Speaker 3: and then it just feels like there's this big gap
38:52
Speaker 3: and this like how do you get back to like
38:55
Speaker 3: baseline trust? And we just kept talking about it after
38:58
Speaker 3: that conversation, and we you know, there'd be moments where
39:02
Speaker 3: like one of us would cry and the other would cry,
39:04
Speaker 3: and then in the end he just said like this
39:07
Speaker 3: and like I'm so proud of you and I love
39:09
Speaker 3: you and I'm listening now. And he used to get
39:13
Speaker 3: so defensive. And people who don't understand BPD, who are
39:17
Speaker 3: in the thick of it with the other person who's
39:18
Speaker 3: going through the BBD, like they get so defensive. And
39:21
Speaker 3: it's the more you strip it away, when you understand
39:23
Speaker 3: the behavioral therapy aspect of like how to change the
39:26
Speaker 3: behaviors on both sides to help mend these interpersonal relationship problems,
39:33
Speaker 3: it's just fascinating because it's very clear how the people
39:39
Speaker 3: would be bed, want to be treated and need to
39:41
Speaker 3: be treated. I haven't had one phone call with a
39:43
Speaker 3: person with BPD who's reached out to me or I've
39:46
Speaker 3: reached out to them and we've told each other our stories.
39:49
Speaker 3: There hasn't been one time that I've given them like
39:52
Speaker 3: a suggestion of or like ask them, is this how
39:55
Speaker 3: you feel and where they've said, no, that's not how
39:57
Speaker 3: I feel. Like it's been pretty like consistent around the
40:03
Speaker 3: entire the all of the communication where people have told
40:08
Speaker 3: me that I get it, or I've told them they
40:12
Speaker 3: get it, and so it's very clear what's happening to
40:15
Speaker 3: people with BPD. But the problem is that there's two
40:18
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty six different combinations with it. Because there's
40:20
Speaker 3: the nine criteria, the five out of nine symptoms you
40:23
Speaker 3: have to have to be considered borderline, and so then
40:28
Speaker 3: it presents itself in so many different ways. It also
40:30
Speaker 3: presents differently in men versus women, and so it's hard
40:36
Speaker 3: to get people who don't understand BPD to know it
40:41
Speaker 3: all and know how to de escalate certain situations. But
40:47
Speaker 3: I finally got my dad to the point where he
40:49
Speaker 3: was willing to be patient and validating, and that was
40:57
Speaker 3: like a major change in our relationship for the better.
41:01
Speaker 1: Wow, well good on Dad. Yeah. If I were you,
41:05
Speaker 1: because I'm not as good a person as you, clearly,
41:09
Speaker 1: I would have gone, hi, Dad, fuck you.
41:12
Speaker 3: I think I did do that once or twice.
41:17
Speaker 1: I don't know that i'd be going and Dad, how
41:19
Speaker 1: do you feel about this? I'm like, that's such a
41:22
Speaker 1: that's such a mature, spiritually evolved, bloody approach. I'm like, wow,
41:29
Speaker 1: you so much better than me.
41:31
Speaker 3: I missed him. I missed him. But also the movie
41:37
Speaker 3: was so cathartic. It was so it was a letter
41:40
Speaker 3: to him. And once I said what I said and
41:43
Speaker 3: felt how I felt, you know, like it, it kind
41:46
Speaker 3: of just made it go like okay, like I'm putting
41:49
Speaker 3: this over here, and if if I'm going to grab
41:52
Speaker 3: it again, it's going to because it's going to be positive.
41:54
Speaker 3: And if it can't be positive, then I have accepted that.
41:58
Speaker 3: You know, people ask, you know, for advice about their
42:01
Speaker 3: family situations, like I don't know if my parents would
42:04
Speaker 3: be capable of reuniting with me the way they've reunited
42:06
Speaker 3: with you. And I've said listen, like you trust your gut,
42:10
Speaker 3: you know. I was prepared, and my dad said the
42:12
Speaker 3: same thing. It was wild hearing this from him. He
42:15
Speaker 3: said he had mourned my gut, He had mourned the
42:18
Speaker 3: loss of me. He thought he would never see me
42:20
Speaker 3: again in this lifetime, and so when it came time
42:23
Speaker 3: to see each other again, it was just really powerful
42:29
Speaker 3: and intense. But he had at a certain point accepted
42:34
Speaker 3: that there might be a chance that we would have
42:38
Speaker 3: never seen each other again. And I think we both
42:42
Speaker 3: had accepted it, you know, And I think that that's
42:45
Speaker 3: kind of where I needed to get to, this acceptance of, like,
42:48
Speaker 3: this person might not show up in my life again.
42:51
Speaker 3: My mom was there with me throughout it all, like
42:54
Speaker 3: that really really rough time when I first got diagnosed.
42:58
Speaker 3: So it was interesting because she witnessed the whole film
43:03
Speaker 3: being made, Like she witnessed me developing the series of
43:06
Speaker 3: shooting the pilot and everything, and she coached me through
43:10
Speaker 3: really rough moments. But the interesting thing about that is
43:13
Speaker 3: that she wasn't close to me before that period of
43:16
Speaker 3: my life my dad, So my mom kind of stepped
43:19
Speaker 3: in at this time when my dad kind of couldn't
43:24
Speaker 3: handle what was going on, and then we all have
43:27
Speaker 3: somehow come out on the other side of it. We
43:30
Speaker 3: had this really beautiful reunion interview with the National Education
43:35
Speaker 3: Allianes for borderline Personality Disorder and I brought them on
43:38
Speaker 3: and you know, they had a rough custody battle for
43:41
Speaker 3: ten and a half years in Queen's Court in New York.
43:44
Speaker 3: I was a kid, and they hadn't talked in at
43:48
Speaker 3: least decade. So I brought them in to show the
43:53
Speaker 3: audience the people, the families who use any ABPD as
43:57
Speaker 3: a resource that you know, healing is possible. And you know,
44:02
Speaker 3: there was a long time that I did say fuck
44:04
Speaker 3: you dad, you know, and there was times where I
44:06
Speaker 3: said fuck you mom, And there was times that they
44:08
Speaker 3: said fuck you, you know, and like yeah, but it's so
44:11
Speaker 3: fascinating how like who's going to rile you up like that,
44:14
Speaker 3: your family or your whole life, Who's seen every side
44:18
Speaker 3: of you? So there's another element to that that's interesting,
44:22
Speaker 3: which is, you know, your family is your family. You're
44:26
Speaker 3: born with your family, and it's up to you all
44:29
Speaker 3: to navigate it and to respect each other. And if
44:33
Speaker 3: it doesn't serve you to be in each other's lives,
44:36
Speaker 3: if it's causing everybody more grief than okay, except that
44:39
Speaker 3: if both people have gone off and healed and then
44:43
Speaker 3: come back and already and open, then you can you
44:49
Speaker 3: can navigate the next steps. If not, then that's just
44:53
Speaker 3: the way it is. And I think that's that's one
44:55
Speaker 3: of the most painful things that I think about of
44:57
Speaker 3: human relationships is actually family relationships, as if you just
45:04
Speaker 3: get so stuck in your own ways as people like
45:07
Speaker 3: both sides, you know that, like you can't hear because
45:12
Speaker 3: when you fight, it's because you care, you know, but
45:16
Speaker 3: maybe you're caring about your feelings more than somebody else's
45:19
Speaker 3: feelings or your perspective or being heard over hearing the
45:22
Speaker 3: other person, and so like both people have to care
45:25
Speaker 3: enough about the other person, more about the other person
45:29
Speaker 3: than their own than being right to be able to
45:32
Speaker 3: ever get to the point of resolution. So that's been
45:37
Speaker 3: a lifelong journey. That's been a life long journey. And
45:40
Speaker 3: I've I'm thirty one.
45:42
Speaker 4: So I've I've spent a lot of time thinking about
45:48
Speaker 4: this and also I have a lot longer to conquer
45:52
Speaker 4: it as well.
45:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, wow, that's amazing, and it's it's so true.
45:58
Speaker 1: It's like so many people get in interactions or exchanges
46:02
Speaker 1: or you know whatever, conversations and there is no listening.
46:07
Speaker 1: There's only talking, and everyone's everyone's trying to win. Everyone's
46:12
Speaker 1: trying to win, and everyone's trying to be right. And
46:15
Speaker 1: when when your sense of self is tied into winning
46:20
Speaker 1: or being right, like your identity is interwoven with this
46:23
Speaker 1: concept or this idea and you don't understand. I understand,
46:28
Speaker 1: but you don't understand and you don't listen, and they're
46:32
Speaker 1: both doing that. It's like, hey, just don't just don't
46:36
Speaker 1: get together, like get together and do something good or
46:38
Speaker 1: at the very least, Like I talk about this all
46:43
Speaker 1: the time, the idea that I could be wrong on
46:46
Speaker 1: this podcast. I'm sure I've said something that's either version
46:49
Speaker 1: of the truth of not a version of the truth,
46:52
Speaker 1: or misleading in some way without intending to. But like
46:57
Speaker 1: I think this, when you turn down the emotion because
47:00
Speaker 1: I want to be right, that's emotion. I believe in
47:03
Speaker 1: this thing that's emotion, and because my belief in that
47:08
Speaker 1: thing is intertwined with my personality. So when you disagree
47:12
Speaker 1: with or you question my belief, then you question me.
47:15
Speaker 1: All that kind of stuff. I go, well, how many
47:20
Speaker 1: times have I been wrong about things. I go, oh,
47:23
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe a million. I don't know, like
47:26
Speaker 1: I've been around for a long time. And I go,
47:28
Speaker 1: did I get anything wrong yesterday? I probably conservatively ten,
47:33
Speaker 1: maybe thirty, I don't know. And then you go, well,
47:36
Speaker 1: what are the chances that I'm right now? Well, statistically
47:40
Speaker 1: fucking half, you know, fifty percent if I'm lucky. Where
47:44
Speaker 1: you go, look, I could be like one of the
47:48
Speaker 1: ones that I talk about people with a lot, because
47:50
Speaker 1: everyone understands is like, for example, God, like I grew
47:53
Speaker 1: up in a God house. I grew up with with
47:56
Speaker 1: belief and faith. And even though I say sweary words
47:58
Speaker 1: and all of that, and and the truth is I
48:03
Speaker 1: believe in God. Do I have any evidence? No? Can
48:06
Speaker 1: I prove it? No? Could it be that there isn't
48:10
Speaker 1: a God? Yep, okay, But it's like, obviously faith is
48:17
Speaker 1: believing in something you can't prove, something for which you
48:19
Speaker 1: have no evidence or data or absoluteness. Otherwise it'd be knowledge,
48:23
Speaker 1: not faith. But it's very hard to talk to religious
48:27
Speaker 1: people who would even consider that they could be wrong,
48:32
Speaker 1: because their whole sense of security is wrapped around being right.
48:38
Speaker 1: So I can't be even when you go listen bro, statistically,
48:42
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't you could be right. But just
48:44
Speaker 1: think about this. There's twelve major religions four thousand minor religions.
48:49
Speaker 1: They all think like you think, which is that everyone
48:53
Speaker 1: except me is wrong. Well, you know, it's like, even
48:58
Speaker 1: just from that, I think, of course, there's at least
49:01
Speaker 1: a chance I'm wrong. Of course, you know, is there
49:04
Speaker 1: a chance I'm right? Is there a chance that there's
49:06
Speaker 1: a god? Is there a chance that there's a thing
49:09
Speaker 1: called eternity after this kind of eighty or so years
49:13
Speaker 1: spinning on a blue ball in infinity? Is there a chance?
49:16
Speaker 4: Well?
49:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know.
49:17
Speaker 3: But just that.
49:19
Speaker 1: Arrogance and that need to be right and that need
49:23
Speaker 1: to win is so fucking socially, emotionally and relationally toxic
49:29
Speaker 1: that you've got to get over that first, or you've
49:31
Speaker 1: got to at least open yourself to the possibility that
49:35
Speaker 1: I don't know, and I'm okay, I don't know.
49:38
Speaker 3: How do you do that in a country like you know,
49:41
Speaker 3: whatever is going on in the States right now, How
49:43
Speaker 3: do you do that when it's promoted to act like that,
49:48
Speaker 3: like we're trained to act like that. I mean from
49:51
Speaker 3: very young, you know, or programmed to behave in a
49:54
Speaker 3: certain way so that you can be accepted by these
49:57
Speaker 3: friend groups, so that you can have friends, so that
49:59
Speaker 3: you can be accepted in larger friend groups, so that
50:02
Speaker 3: you can work your way up in the social hierarchy
50:05
Speaker 3: and have a chance in this life. And bullying is promoted,
50:09
Speaker 3: and negativity is promoted, and pitting people against each other
50:13
Speaker 3: is the.
50:13
Speaker 1: Norm, and it's selective, selective, selective dumbness. It's like, so
50:19
Speaker 1: do you if you understand the concept of echo chambers
50:23
Speaker 1: and confirmation bias? Oh yeah, yeah, do you think that's real? Yeah,
50:27
Speaker 1: but it doesn't affect you at all. Oh no, it
50:29
Speaker 1: doesn't affect me because you're superhuman, you know. It's like
50:36
Speaker 1: it is an like I always say, the biggest problem
50:40
Speaker 1: in my life is me, which is not me throwing
50:43
Speaker 1: myself under the bus. It's not self hate, it's just
50:46
Speaker 1: self awareness. It's like, well, of course, because the only
50:49
Speaker 1: person who can really fuck up my life, even with
50:52
Speaker 1: good and bad things going on, is ultimately me, because
50:55
Speaker 1: I'm the decision maker and the action taker. And if
50:58
Speaker 1: I don't take total accountability for what I do and
51:00
Speaker 1: don't do and what I create, then I'm just going
51:03
Speaker 1: to blame someone for where I end up. If I
51:06
Speaker 1: end up in a great place, it will be my
51:08
Speaker 1: fault because I'm amazing. But if I don't, it's going
51:11
Speaker 1: to be Kelsey's problem or fault because she did this
51:14
Speaker 1: and she didn't do enough of that. So you know,
51:17
Speaker 1: this is just the ridiculous, inane, unintelligent kind of operating
51:24
Speaker 1: system that so many people are. And when you get
51:28
Speaker 1: in front of charismatic, charming, articulate, well spoken, good looking, attractive,
51:36
Speaker 1: popular people who some of them are sociopaths, of course
51:41
Speaker 1: they've got a fucking following. Of course, people you know,
51:44
Speaker 1: drink the kool aid. Of course humans. And also we
51:48
Speaker 1: want to belong to a group. We don't like being
51:52
Speaker 1: out here. We want to be in the group. We
51:54
Speaker 1: want to be accepted and loved and needed and valued.
51:57
Speaker 1: So when our group believes something we don't, maybe we
52:01
Speaker 1: don't say it because we don't want to be rejected
52:03
Speaker 1: or rejected you.
52:05
Speaker 3: Know in us since school, I mean it, since every
52:10
Speaker 3: you can remember. So, yes, how do you escape that
52:15
Speaker 3: mentality of needing to conform? And then you know, finding
52:20
Speaker 3: a way in a path on your own to build
52:22
Speaker 3: something that's healthy.
52:24
Speaker 1: And not take Yeah, takes incredible courage and self awareness
52:29
Speaker 1: and humility to go. I got so many things wrong,
52:33
Speaker 1: and sometimes I'll say, by the way, what I just
52:35
Speaker 1: said everyone last five minutes could be wrong. I could be.
52:41
Speaker 1: I could be. But I think like a really not
52:45
Speaker 1: that this is a one stop kind of fix all.
52:50
Speaker 1: But if you get really clear about what matters to you,
52:53
Speaker 1: your values, not what anyone else thinks your value should be,
52:56
Speaker 1: not what the group says, not what the gang says,
52:58
Speaker 1: the theology, to philosophy, the ideology, fuck all that. What
53:02
Speaker 1: do you think? Like what you we're talking about that
53:05
Speaker 1: knowledge that we have without knowing why when you go
53:08
Speaker 1: into that place that's beyond mind and brain, it's just
53:12
Speaker 1: truth or it's your version of the truth. What do
53:16
Speaker 1: you know in there? Like, that's where I think values
53:20
Speaker 1: kind of reveal themselves. You know, I've been around sixty years, right,
53:25
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of stuff, bought a lot of
53:26
Speaker 1: stuff in the eyes of the world, have been somewhat successful.
53:31
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah blah blah. But you can get all
53:34
Speaker 1: the stuff own, all the stuff have, all the stuff.
53:37
Speaker 1: Still we medicated for anxiety and depression and sleeplessness. In
53:41
Speaker 1: the middle of all of your success, you're fucking sad,
53:44
Speaker 1: so you're not successful. You just have stuff, you know.
53:50
Speaker 1: So I think it's that if you can get clear
53:52
Speaker 1: about what your values really are for you and then
53:55
Speaker 1: build a reality around that, it's not the worst start.
54:00
Speaker 3: No one is exempt from suffering. I mean the richest
54:03
Speaker 3: people in the world who have knowledge that other people
54:07
Speaker 3: don't have, where they know more about the threats that
54:12
Speaker 3: face this earth, and also the poorest people in the
54:15
Speaker 3: world who struggle to find their meal that day, or
54:19
Speaker 3: who witnessed horrific experiences of their siblings or their parents
54:25
Speaker 3: dying from an air strike in their country and not
54:28
Speaker 3: knowing where they're going to end up. I mean, if
54:32
Speaker 3: I've learned anything from the doctors and professionals that I've
54:36
Speaker 3: been speaking with, is that no one is exempt from suffering.
54:41
Speaker 3: Which that's very eye opening because you know, I came
54:44
Speaker 3: from not a lot. I came from, you know, a
54:52
Speaker 3: single mom household with my sisters, and then you know
54:55
Speaker 3: my single dad, and I mean it's harder to raise families,
54:59
Speaker 3: as I say parents, So like both sides, like witnessing
55:03
Speaker 3: how difficult it was for both My mom and my
55:05
Speaker 3: dad to get through raising children, a child or multiple
55:10
Speaker 3: children by themselves. You know, it took its toll on them,
55:16
Speaker 3: and so I. You know, it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy.
55:20
Speaker 3: And I didn't know that I was ever going to
55:23
Speaker 3: be capable of making anything like I have. I didn't
55:28
Speaker 3: know that I'd be able to carve out a life
55:32
Speaker 3: for myself that I enjoyed. And it took ten thousand
55:37
Speaker 3: hours plus of practice of studying, of dreaming, and that
55:43
Speaker 3: served me well. I mean the dreaming, dreaming bigger, and
55:48
Speaker 3: knowing that no one was going to do that for me,
55:52
Speaker 3: that I had to do that for myself. It pushed me.
55:55
Speaker 3: And I still struggle, you know, I still have moments
55:58
Speaker 3: where I just go like like when when will the
56:02
Speaker 3: thing happen that will make things even easier, Like I'm ready.
56:07
Speaker 3: But again, if you if if you look back all
56:09
Speaker 3: the way to my childhood, I just I need to
56:12
Speaker 3: remember that have come far. So but this society, it's
56:18
Speaker 3: so hard to deal with with all the stressors and
56:21
Speaker 3: then the constant reminders on in social media telling you
56:23
Speaker 3: all the tragic things that are going on. It's hard.
56:25
Speaker 3: It's hard to balance that and to push that stuff out.
56:29
Speaker 1: Possible, But do you know what, it's super nice to
56:32
Speaker 1: meet you. We need to get you back because we're
56:34
Speaker 1: then talking for an hour and we really haven't done
56:36
Speaker 1: any kind of education nor awareness around BP day. So
56:40
Speaker 1: I want to do that if you if you want
56:43
Speaker 1: to come back like specific, just talk about it.
56:48
Speaker 3: So.
56:49
Speaker 1: Kelsey's website is dub dub dub, kelspac k l s
56:53
Speaker 1: p a c k dot com, Instagram, kel spack uh,
56:58
Speaker 1: and your Borderline and pilot people can watch on YouTube on.
57:03
Speaker 3: YouTube and a Borderline TV series on TikTok and Instagram
57:08
Speaker 3: for behind the scenes and clips of the film and
57:11
Speaker 3: updates on BPD education.
57:14
Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing. Is there anywhere else you want to point
57:19
Speaker 1: our audience to anything that you want them to look
57:22
Speaker 1: at or follow you on or connect with you on?
57:24
Speaker 1: Or is that about it?
57:26
Speaker 3: I think that's That's what I've been focusing on for now.
57:30
Speaker 3: I'm like, maybe I'll get an X account one day,
57:35
Speaker 3: but I also am like very comfortable on Instagram.
57:39
Speaker 1: Yeah me too. I We'll talk offeebit. Kelsey, thank you
57:42
Speaker 1: so much. That was in lightning. You're an inspiration. Keep
57:45
Speaker 1: doing great things, just quickly twenty seconds. Are you doing
57:51
Speaker 1: your pay? I stay with doctor Blise.
57:54
Speaker 3: You know. I want to get my masters at a
57:57
Speaker 3: Harvard extension, so that is on the horai in So
58:01
Speaker 3: I don't think I'll ever do PhD because that takes
58:04
Speaker 3: so long. But if I can do masters, I really
58:08
Speaker 3: want to. I really want to have some credentials and
58:11
Speaker 3: be an expert in psychology.
58:13
Speaker 1: For you, good for you. Get done to a stay
58:16
Speaker 1: that domb. It was not, but uh, Tiffany, and thanks
58:21
Speaker 1: for sitting over there quietly.
58:23
Speaker 2: Thank you sir, Thank you Chilsey.
58:25
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. I had a blast with
58:28
Speaker 3: you guys. Can't wait to do it again.