Latest / Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries / Episode 143: Be Kind to Yourself (ft. Mark Wick)

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Episode 143: Be Kind to Yourself (ft. Mark Wick) · Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries

0:00
Why do you think men's mental health is so important right now?
0:05
Well,'cause I think we all have it.
0:07
You know?
0:07
And, and it's something that we're finally starting to talk about.
0:11
I don't think this is a new thing.
0:13
I think the fact that we're talking about it is a new thing.
0:15
You know?
0:15
Men's mental health has been around for a number of years.
0:17
We've always had it, it's just we've never wanted to talk about it because we get these messages of,"That must mean you're weak," right?
0:24
Because mental health talks about more feelings, emotions, the things that we can't see, things that we're experiencing, and we're supposed to be tough.
0:33
So it's been around, but we just haven't talked about it.
0:38
How do we break through that, that old-school mentality that if you talk about it, if you have a bad day, if you're struggling with something, that makes you a wuss?
0:45
How, how do we, how do we power through this?
0:48
I think with what we're doing right now, you know?
0:50
The more we talk about it, the more we normalize it, and understand that, um, it's nothing to be ashamed of because we all experience it.
0:58
And, um, why do we have to struggle?
1:02
You know?
1:02
If, if you, if you slipped on a curb today and broke your ankle, you wouldn't walk around for the next 20 years to show how tough you were.
1:08
You wouldn't hide it.
1:09
Exactly.
1:10
You know?
1:10
But, but we can also see that, and we can't see how people feel.
1:15
But it's okay to tell people how we feel.
1:18
that's, that's kinda new for a lot of people.
1:20
You know, for people in my generation in that we didn't talk about it.
1:24
and then we, we hit it, and we also know the consequences of hiding it, that it becomes very heavy.
1:31
And growing up with parents or grandparents of the Silent Generation, the rub some dirt on it, tough it out, kid.
1:37
Yep.
1:37
You know, it, it, it's a sign of weakness, right?
1:40
Yeah.
1:40
And, and we get that message.
1:41
Suck it up.
1:42
Be tough.
1:43
Well, um, I think the toughest thing sometimes is to ask for help.
1:50
That's challenging.
1:52
we're all really good at helping others out.
1:54
We'll, we'll do anything for anybody else.
1:56
But asking for the help, that's what we struggle with.
2:00
And in this case, if, if you fell off that curb, and I saw you, I'd be like,"Wow, what can I do?
2:06
I can help you." Because I can see it, right?
2:08
Somebody gets in an accident or you see, you know, blood or something, it's like,"Hey, what can I do?" We see it.
2:14
We wanna help, but we can't see the mental health things.
2:17
We can't see what you're living and experiencing.
2:20
but we don't wanna reach out either,'cause what do you think the most common thing when, when somebody's struggling and I say,"Have you shared this with anybody or have you told your close friends?" Um, what do you think their answer is?
2:32
They don't wanna be what?
2:33
Judged.
2:34
They don't wanna be judged and they don't wanna be a burden.
2:38
But yet they'll help anybody else out.
2:40
And when I help people out, I don't look at them as a burden, I feel better- Yeah after I help'em out, right?
2:46
And if somebody asks, you would, and, and especially with this, wouldn't we all say,"Absolutely.
2:51
How can I help you?
2:52
Let's chat.
2:53
let's get together." Yeah.
2:54
And, um, the guys at Face It, you might know them, I don't know.
2:59
A little bit, Mark and Bill.
3:00
Yeah.
3:00
Yeah.
3:01
you know, they, they shared this.
3:02
Um, instead of phrasing it as a burden, right?
3:07
Um, if we look at it this way, that I'm struggling, and you know what?
3:12
I'm gonna ask you for help because I know at the end of the day, you'll feel better helping me.
3:17
If I don't ask you, I'm denying you that opportunity to feel good about yourself.
3:22
And if we can just kind of change that narrative, but changing that narrative is not just about that.
3:28
There's about so many things in the mental health area that we have to change the narrative, um, and the way we change it is we talk about it.
3:34
Yeah.
3:34
You know, we understand it better.
3:37
And time and again, when something bad happens in terms of suicide, we were all at a funeral together a couple weeks ago.
3:45
Mm-hmm.
3:46
And the recurring theme from everyone,"Didn't see it coming." Absolutely.
3:50
"Why didn't he say something?
3:52
What I wouldn't have given to have helped." I, I know hindsight's 20/20, and you'll never know.
3:57
Mm-hmm.
3:57
But the rest of us that remain deal with that.
4:01
The, the pain is just transferred.
4:03
And yet that person, and again, I, I can't read their minds and those types of stuff, I know from, from personal experience, the thought is, though, that everybody'll be better off without me.
4:14
Yeah.
4:15
Like- I'm doing them, I'm doing a favor I'm doing everybody a favor- Yeah when in hindsight it's the other way, but that's the way our mind works, and that's the really tough thing about this, about mental health, is, um, that is a common thing that people will say,"I didn't see this coming." And the reason is the people that live it, we get really good at hiding it.
4:35
Because we don't want people to, to see it because it's always been looked at as something negative.
4:41
So I, I don't wanna show that, and over time that gets really, really heavy, and then we see the consequences of that.
4:50
I saw Jimmy Carr, a comedian, sharing a rather unexpected aspect in his standup routine where he addressed that, and I wanna read what he said.
5:03
"Suicide doesn't work.
5:05
People commit suicide because they wanna get rid of the pain, but you can't get rid of the pain.
5:10
All you can ever hope to do is redistribute the pain to people that loved you." He called that a terrifying realization.
5:20
And then if one person listened to that and goes,"Okay, yeah, I, I can't do that." Mm-hmm.
5:25
I hadn't thought about it that way.
5:26
That, that pain that someone's feeling is just getting...
5:30
It's a tidal wave onto the people you leave behind.
5:33
There's no favor being done.
5:34
No.
5:36
Mark Wick, we are happy to have you in studio today.
5:39
We have mutual friends, as you mentioned, Bill and Mark from Face It Foundation.
5:43
You have quite a- Friends is a- Well, it's a loose- I mean, acquaintances Depends on the day.
5:47
Yep.
5:47
No.
5:47
There's a lot of teasing that goes.
5:49
Isn't that the thing, that we, we tease and, and give each other a hard time are those we love the most?
5:55
You have quite an accomplished hockey coaching career.
5:58
We're gonna talk about that a little bit.
6:01
Men's mental health has been a big focus for the Minnesota Freemasons.
6:05
We've embarked on a partnership with Face It Foundation for the next five years.
6:09
We are bringing the BEHIVE initiative to lodges across our state, with the goal being: how can we connect on a deeper and more authentic level?
6:20
Masons use a lot of these descriptions of brotherhood and friendship, personal growth, accountability to one another.
6:29
We wanna see that become something that is tangible.
6:32
Brotherhood is a verb felt in the heart.
6:35
You can say the words all day long, but if they're just platitudes, and if they're not felt, if they're not-- if there's not that authentic connection of trust and love, we're missing the mark in a world that is lonely, isolated.
6:51
We've gone through the stats so many times, the friendship recession, people struggling in, in silence.
6:59
Why are we going through this journey of life and not leaning on those who we know care about us and love us?
7:07
And you talked about that reciprocal relationship.
7:10
I, I wish we could just find that answer, but it's, like you said, talking about it is the start.
7:15
Yep, normalizing it.
7:17
Because, this is what I do now.
7:19
I try to talk about it, because I'm one of the lucky ones.
7:22
You talk about all those stats, right?
7:25
Um, that could've been me, right?
7:27
Can you share your story?
7:29
I've lived with, I'll say I li- I've lived with depression probably my whole life.
7:34
And I know, you know, for 30 years my wife tried to tell me, I had depression and tried to, you know, get me help.
7:45
But it's a really tough thing, to identify, right?
7:49
What's she gonna do?
7:50
Like, blood test, X-ray, MRI?
7:51
Like- Right it was her word against mine kinda thing, and she could say it, but I didn't wanna believe it because, that's a label, the way I looked at it.
8:01
So I denied it, I hid it, I did all those things.
8:05
And like I said, when we hold those things in and we don't share them with other people, they get really, really heavy.
8:10
And, you know, I don't have to go through the whole thing, but the 2014-'15 season when I was coaching, we were on a, playing in a tournament out in New York, out in Oswego, New York.
8:21
And, um, after a event on Friday night, a loss, you know, I kinda lost it on the team.
8:29
I went out in the parking lot.
8:30
I kinda had a panic attack.
8:31
I got all these racing thoughts.
8:33
but I had to go back in, watch the rest of the game.
8:35
I sent the team off by themselves.
8:37
Um, told them I'd meet them back at the hotel.
8:40
It was upstate New York, January 2nd of 2015, so just like northern Minnesota, not a great night, blustery.
8:46
I decided to walk back to the hotel that night, and all these thoughts running through my head.
8:51
I was crying.
8:51
It's like,"I can't do this anymore." Why is my wife still with me?
8:56
My poor kids drew the short straw with me as a dad." All these thoughts.
9:01
And our hotel just happened to be on the, other side of the Oswego River, which is kinda like the Mississippi that runs into Lake Ontario.
9:10
And, uh, as I stood on the bridge that night, the best thing for me to do as I stopped there and looked over the edge was to jump, that everybody'd be better off without me.
9:22
obviously I didn't jump that night, and it wasn't because I said to myself,"Oh, that's a dumb idea.
9:27
What are you thinking?" It just wasn't the right time.
9:29
See, we're out in New York, I'm already a burden to my wife.
9:32
Now she's gotta find, they gotta find my body, get it back to Minnesota.
9:36
You know, the team probably doesn't know,'cause we were headed to New York City the next day, um, probably don't know where we're staying.
9:42
I got the school credit card.
9:43
Like, all these thoughts that to me at the time were rational, just like jumping was a rational thought, it, um, you know, just wasn't the right time.
9:52
Had we been closer to Duluth that night, I don't know what would've happened, fast-forward to January 31st, a really tough month, our last home game of the year, we lost.
10:02
An event happened.
10:03
I went after the other coach on the ice.
10:05
Um, they separated us.
10:06
I went back to the locker room, and I was kind of in a state of just, um- I was locked.
10:13
Like I, I, I was non...
10:15
I couldn't do anything.
10:16
Was that in the handshake line?
10:17
no, it was after the handshake line.
10:19
It was a stick salute, and we did our stick salute.
10:21
The other team did a stick salute in front of our fan- in front of their fans on the ice, and my captain turned around and looked at me.
10:30
What he was asking was,"Hey, where's the volleyball coach?"'Cause it was her birthday and we always stick salute her on her birthday.
10:36
I took it as,"Hey, Coach, look at them.
10:38
Are you gonna do anything?""Yeah, sure.
10:41
I'd love to." Right?
10:42
So I went...
10:42
That's when I went after their coach.
10:44
Get to the locker room.
10:45
I was non-functional.
10:47
Sat in a chair, had my hands.
10:49
Um, our assistant coaches were in there, radio people, and our women's hockey coach.
10:57
And Jackie McMillan, the women's coach, said she was leaving.
11:00
She left, but she didn't really leave.
11:02
She called my wife and, um, she waited till everybody left and she came back in the room and said,"You know, Mark, what the hell's going on?" And then my wife walked in.
11:12
And that was it.
11:13
That's when I got help.
11:15
I will say this, if Jackie didn't call my wife that night, I probably wouldn't be here today either, because we hide it, I, I would've gone home.
11:24
It would've been normal.
11:25
I got home at 3:00 in the morning.
11:26
Everybody would've known,"Dad lost.
11:28
Stay away from him.
11:28
Just give him some time." And it got worse and worse every year, and there was gonna be a point that it did happen.
11:37
And at that point, I really couldn't argue the getting help piece because now I was...
11:42
I, I couldn't do it anymore, That was my rock bottom.
11:46
But a lot of people don't get, get that second chance.
11:50
That's why I'm a lucky one I have to believe that your line of work made that even more difficult because you're the coach, it's hockey- Mm-hmm it's tough, it's rough, it's play through the pain like we talked about a few minutes ago.
12:08
How can you be the one that said stop to say,"I need help.
12:11
I need to go address a very serious situation in my life right now"?
12:16
Except at that point, I didn't have any other choice because I, I couldn't also do what I was doing.
12:21
I was so far down the line, and that's where we normally lose people, and that's why I say I'm, I'm the lucky one to be here.
12:29
And that was the first time I took it seriously, and, I wish I would've li- listened to my wife 30 years earlier.
12:37
But there was this whole stigma.
12:39
We don't talk about this stuff.
12:40
Yeah.
12:40
It's, it's not real.
12:42
And, you know, when we even talk about depression, like, what are the signs and symptoms, It's, you know, sad, withdrawn, lonely, hopeless, all that, right?
12:51
Mm-hmm.
12:51
That's what I thought.
12:53
Well, another sign, especially in men, can be anger, rage, lack of focus, um, self-medication.
13:05
all these things screamed my name.
13:08
But I didn't associate that, right?
13:10
You ever seen a coach get upset?
13:12
It's what we do, right?
13:13
I, I always- It's what you get paid for, right?
13:15
Well, I, I always joke, like my wife being a nurse, like, what happens if she sees, um, a doctor at the nurse's station and says,"Is this your patient?
13:24
You came up with this diagnosis?
13:26
My God, did you even go to med school?" And throws a chart at him and storms out.
13:30
What happens to her?
13:31
She gets fired.
13:33
I always tell people, like, I'm a helper.
13:35
Mm-hmm.
13:35
And we know in my sport who needed to be helped the most, the referees, and I would help them.
13:40
And I might tell them that that's the worst call I've ever seen in my 30 years of coaching, and I might drop an F-bomb or five.
13:47
And what would generally happen to me?
13:49
People would cheer.
13:50
Yeah.
13:50
People cheer.
13:50
They love seeing that stuff.
13:51
You, you might get a bench minor or something, right?
13:53
Yeah.
13:53
But who cares, right?
13:54
But, but two minutes.
13:55
Yeah.
13:56
Right?
13:56
But mostly people cheered, Go, go to Major League Baseball back in the day, right?
14:00
Everybody loved watching a manager go, go out there and kick dirt and get in the umpire's face.
14:05
Like, yeah, you know?
14:07
Mm-hmm.
14:07
And, and in hockey we, we fight, People don't lean over and say,"Huh, I wonder if those guys got some mental health issues," right?
14:13
It's part of the game.
14:14
Yeah.
14:14
And the team gets fired up.
14:16
Absolutely.
14:16
I was in the perfect profession to hide my illness because other coaches were doing it, too.
14:23
But I didn't...
14:24
At the end, I didn't control it.
14:26
I didn't wanna act that way, but I...
14:28
my mental health was controlling me.
14:30
I didn't have control of it.
14:33
And in your line of work, there's almost a hall of fame of coaches that behave that way.
14:37
Don Cherry- Oh Barry Melrose.
14:40
Go...
14:41
There's a long, long list.
14:42
Oh, you can go all the way down to Bobby Knight in basketball.
14:44
You can pick out any sport- Oh, yeah full of those guys.
14:46
Throw the chair.
14:47
Oh, yeah.
14:47
Yeah.
14:47
You know?
14:49
You said a few moments ago that that's not real.
14:53
Mm-hmm.
14:53
And I bet people would also,"Oh, it'll pass." Yeah.
14:55
I may be in rage.
14:58
I may be not...
14:59
My, my thought process is all scattered, but that'll pass.
15:02
It's just a thing, right?
15:03
Yep, yep.
15:04
And- But it b- but it won't a- and we can always justify it because there isn't that X-ray, that MRI, that blood test, right?
15:13
You, you can't, you can't talk your way out of a broken arm.
15:16
Well, you don't have to get help, but that's what the X-ray shows, right?
15:19
Here, you just don't get it, right?
15:22
There's a reason for it, like I got mad because somebody did something that made me mad, Um, there was always a reason for my actions, I want...
15:33
You know, I'd sleep a lot.
15:35
Well, it's because I'd been on the road recruiting.
15:37
I'm working these 100-hour weeks, right?
15:39
I didn't sleep, right?
15:41
Well, there was a reason.
15:41
Huh, look at our power play.
15:43
Like, you wouldn't sleep either, right?
15:45
Mm-hmm.
15:45
So, I always had these reasons on why I was acting that way, the justifications.
15:50
Because it was a lot easier to justify than look at myself and say something might be wrong.
15:56
That is a tangled web when your behavior can be directly linked to the job you were hired for.
16:02
Oh.
16:03
What are some other common signs, or maybe not common signs, that would indicate, you know, when it's time for someone to seek help, whether that's through- Mm a therapist or even having a conversation through our friends at Face It Foundation or, say, at our Beehive Initiative?
16:20
I think it's changes in people, Um, changes that we see.
16:23
I was a different person around everybody on campus, um, around neighbors than I was at home, than I was in the locker room, Because again, kind of like when we talked about f- facing, like who are the, we the meanest to, right?
16:38
Who do we joke with the most sometimes?
16:40
Mm-hmm.
16:40
Well, who do you think saw my depression, anxiety the most?
16:46
My wife, my kids, my team.
16:48
the entities that I love the most, right, were the worst two, because I think we feel kind of safe, I didn't act like that to the neighbors.
16:56
I didn't like that, act like that to other coaches.
16:59
I didn't act like that to students or professors across campus, because I didn't feel as safe.
17:05
But in this area, my wife and kids would always be there.
17:08
The team was always there.
17:10
We take it out on them.
17:11
So to see those changes and ask, like,"Are you doing okay?" You know, I, I remember after my incident when I took a leave from the team that year, um, the first p- coach I talked to after a week, I first talked to Mike Sertich because he was my...
17:27
He worked with me for a couple of years, and a, a great friend.
17:31
He was a great coach, but more importantly, just a great person I could talk to.
17:36
Um, and he said to me,"You know, I was at a game a couple weeks ago, and I just noticed something, and I wish I would've said something." And I told him,"I'm glad you didn't," because I wasn't ready for the help, and I would've just denied it, I would've hit it deeper figuring,"I gotta hide this more," right?
17:53
It's a panic of, uh-oh, is it visible?
17:55
Right.
17:55
I don't want people to see this, Because it's not a good sign.
17:59
And then the next person a week later was Dana Moore, our volleyball coach, and Dana said to me,"Mark, I've known you for 20 years.
18:07
I would have never guessed you had depression." And when she said that, it was like, it's out there.
18:14
The gig's up.
18:15
I don't have to carry this around anymore, It was such a freeing thing, you know?
18:20
And I told her,"I know," because we don't want people to know.
18:23
We hide it.
18:24
But it had gotten so heavy that I couldn't carry it anymore, and that was just a freeing thing, and at that point, it's like, I don't have to hide this anymore.
18:33
like I said, I was a lucky one to be able to, to share that because I was still around.
18:42
You are from the old school of coaching.
18:46
Yep.
18:47
Has the culture changed a little bit?
18:49
Or how has it evolved in the locker room if a, if a player notices something either in a teammate or even someone on the coaching staff that is a bit of a red flag?
18:59
Are, are people feel more freely to talk about that, acknowledge that in private and, and be discreet about it?
19:04
Or is it still a h- is it a really one-way power vacuum?
19:09
Yep.
19:11
yes to both.
19:11
Okay.
19:12
Be- because, um, you talked about the old school coaches, right?
19:16
Where do we learn a lot of things, Well, people don't necessarily teach us how to coach.
19:22
They model it.
19:24
So who are our models, you know, I wasn't the type of coach I wanted to be, But I didn't have the training on how to be that coach, If you looked at my office, I saw I had books from, Tony Dungy, Phil Jackson.
19:39
Phil Jackson, I was gonna say.
19:39
Yeah.
19:40
Yep.
19:40
Tho- those kind of coaches, right?
19:41
The, the coach that, you know, I admired maybe the most,'cause I was a grad assistant at Bowling Green, when he was still coaching, that was Jerry York, right?
19:49
And this is a coach that all-time winning-est college coach.
19:53
Players never heard him swear.
19:55
Is he Boston?
19:56
He was Boston College.
19:57
Yep.
19:58
Um, he beat UMD, for the national title at Bowling Green in the four overtimes, and then, um, went to Boston College, his alma mater, won another handful of national titles.
20:08
But you know, his thing was he was calm.
20:11
He couldn't tell anything, right?
20:14
I had that, But I was more like the, um, Mike Keenan, um, Bobby Knight, right?
20:21
Um, you know, in tennis I remember being young, I wanted to be Björn Borg.
20:25
I was Ivan Lendl, right?
20:27
You don't know those guys, but- I do.
20:28
I know those guys but, but Ivan, uh- Wimbledon in the early'80s?
20:31
Absolutely.
20:31
Yeah, and, and Björn was the guy that you couldn't tell how he was doing.
20:33
No.
20:33
And Ilie would be the one breaking rackets.
20:35
Mm-hmm.
20:36
Because we weren't taught that way.
20:37
Now, I will say this.
20:39
There's some young coaches out there and, um, and some of the older coaches that have transitioned, they get it, and they're having these, right?
20:49
I work with a handful of, um, Division I teams right now on mental health.
20:54
Great.
20:54
On c- mental performance, right?
20:55
They have me in the locker room to talk about this stuff because they understand the importance of it, right?
21:01
We always talk about the importance of the mental game, but we don't do anything with it, we have coaches, you know, hollering, screaming,"Focus, relax." Well, A, they're screaming, they're not relaxed themselves.
21:13
But we don't teach kids how to do that stuff It's like telling a child,"I'm going to give you something to cry about" while a child is crying.
21:19
Really?
21:19
Exactly.
21:20
Yeah.
21:20
Right?
21:20
When you're peeling the paint off the walls, screaming at your team, telling them to mentally focus and, and relax.
21:27
but that, that's the way...
21:29
We don't have enough time to talk about this, but that's the way our mental health system is set up.
21:33
We wait till crisis.
21:35
It's like, I always say, it's like giving swimming lessons when somebody's drowning.
21:39
It doesn't work that well, right?
21:41
We have to be on the front end and be more proactive.
21:43
I think that's what, you know, you're doing with this initiative, is you're being proactive.
21:47
You're giving the out- the, the platform for people just to talk about it.
21:52
Because I think at the end of the day, there is a stigma.
21:57
But I also think, especially guys, my experience, is we wanna talk about it, but we also wanna know, and I don't like this term, but we also wanna know it's safe.
22:09
That we're not gonna be judged, that it's not gonna be held against us.
22:14
But, you know, one of the things a lot of times, and I felt this way, and, and people always say,"Nobody gets what I'm going through." Yeah.
22:22
Um,"I feel like I'm on an island.""I'm the only one." Yep.
22:26
And man, that island is packed because, you know, we know all, of, you know, get in a room and have people count off by three or four and stand up.
22:37
You know, you got 100 people in a room, 25% of them have a mental illness.
22:43
They're diagnosed.
22:46
And another large handful have it also, they're just not diagnosed.
22:50
Like, I wasn't one of that stat 30 years ago.
22:54
You know, right now it's, it's been 11 years, I wasn't one of those stats'cause I never got diagnosed,'cause guess what?
23:01
If you don't go in, you don't get diagnosed.
23:02
Mm-hmm.
23:03
Doesn't mean I didn't have it.
23:05
So when we know of the numbers, they're that much higher because people aren't willing to do it.
23:11
Yet you get in an environment where you know that it's safe and people start to share their stories, it's like, what?
23:20
I feel that same way.
23:21
I didn't think anybody else felt that way.
23:23
Or especially the guy across the room that I assumed had his life was- Absolutely perfect.
23:28
Yeah.
23:28
Ab- like, you got it all together.
23:30
I'm like, really?
23:32
Not even close.
23:33
No.
23:33
but what do we show people?
23:35
What we want them to see.
23:36
Wear a mask.
23:38
Absolutely.
23:39
and, and that's where when they know it's safe to talk about, boy, you'd be amazed at the things that they're willing to share.
23:47
And once you share it, take some of that burden off.
23:51
You're not alone.
23:52
Absolutely.
23:56
If you want a calmer or happier life, you need to address small problems while they're still small.
24:04
The cost of dealing with an issue rarely gets cheaper with time.
24:08
Procrastination turns uncomfortable things into unavoidable things.
24:14
That could even apply to a home project I don't wanna do just yet.
24:18
Yep.
24:19
When it's forced upon-- But as far as that applies to our mental health And not worrying about being gossiped about or judged.
24:30
A big part of our motivator in partnering with the FACE IT Foundation is that we had a number of members of our Masonic fraternity seeking help or guidance on the things you and I are talking about today elsewhere.
24:44
Which is great, but their feedback was,"I'm not comfortable sharing this, even privately, with someone I, I know and trust in my, in my lodge." Mm-hmm.
24:54
And that's a big warning sign to me, or a red flag, that we are the purveyors of brotherhood and friendship, and the goal of the beehive initiative is to make brotherhood something we can, like I said earlier, it's not an abstract concept or a buzzword that we just say because it's in the script or it's part of the fraternity.
25:16
how can we be there for each other?
25:19
And to your earlier point, when you see the signs in someone, not calling them out in a gotcha sort of manner- No but in a,"Hey, how are you doing?" And then when we get past the platitudes,"How are you really doing?" And answering honestly D- did we miss any things that other misconceptions that m- m- men specifically have before they'll say,"Hey, I need to talk"?
25:47
Well, I, I think it's, it's breaking down those barriers that something's wrong with you, that, um, that it is weakness.
25:57
It's being vulnerable is, is weakness.
26:00
And, you know, ju- just, just like I tell people that we all have physical health, You ever been sick?
26:09
Yeah.
26:10
You ever been injured, hurt?
26:12
Right.
26:12
That ha- And what happens when that happens, is that we either stay home and rest or eat our chicken soup, or we maybe go see a doctor if it goes on for a period of time, Or we have to go in for other things, But it goes on this continuum, and we wanna get it back to healthy, right?
26:30
Well, understand that mental health doesn't necessarily mean mental illness.
26:38
if you have somebody lose a loved one, they're gonna be depressed.
26:43
It doesn't mean they have depression, but they're gonna be depressed.
26:47
Now, what do they do with that, Well, they can talk to somebody, or they can go out and get drunk and- Mm-hmm ignore it, deny it.
26:55
Self-medicate.
26:55
Self-medicate, Numb it, And it's...
26:59
We, we all go through those things, and that's normal because we all have mental health.
27:04
I think sometimes we don't admit it because I don't wanna have mental illness.
27:10
I don't wanna be diagnosable, right?
27:12
That's one of the things I don't like about our mental health system.
27:15
And again, it's different for different people.
27:16
Some people, it gives them an understanding on,"Well, there's nothing wrong with me.
27:21
This is an illness.
27:22
I didn't cause this.
27:23
I didn't want this," But for other people, it's that label, but I think we're getting past that.
27:28
But when you go to therapy, they have to diagnose it, or they're not gonna get paid for it.
27:32
Yeah.
27:33
You know?
27:34
Uh, we don't do as much of the preventative stuff, Now, there's ways that we as therapists can get around that, and we do, but people don't understand that, and it's, it's the, the comfortableness of talking and then understanding you're not alone and hearing stories from others that gives us the power.
27:53
But it, it doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you.
27:55
It doesn't mean that you have a mental illness.
27:58
I think that just nailed it, though.
28:01
I would assume so many men equate just the concept of mental health with, uh-oh, it equals mental illness, which it does not.
28:09
Mental health is just dealing with life and the rollercoaster that we all experience every day.
28:14
Absolutely.
28:15
Day in and day out, the stress of relationships and kids and jobs and finances.
28:22
Mental health is no different, or is parallel to our physical health or the other aspects that we address No, no, I, I, I think you're dead on.
28:30
Like, you're gonna go for a job interview, would you be willing to have somebody look at your resume to say,"Hey, how can I spice this up?
28:38
How can this really help me?" Right?
28:39
Yeah, another set of eyes.
28:41
Yeah.
28:41
Are you okay with going to somebody and saying,"Hey, I get so anxious at these things, I freeze up"?
28:47
That's, that's your mental...
28:48
That, that means you- your anxiety gets so high that you can't perform the way you want to.
28:55
Well, there's ways to deal with that.
28:57
That doesn't mean you have anxiety, a diagnosable anxiety.
29:02
It just means that's normal.
29:03
We get super anxious.
29:04
You're human.
29:05
Exactly.
29:06
but we look at it as differently, like, I don't wanna do that.
29:09
When I work, I say I work with these teams, It is really tough on what's my title.
29:15
'Cause if you say mental health- Yeah we're having somebody come in and speak about mental health- Coach is gonna think I'm- a lot of the kids tune out.
29:22
Yeah.
29:22
Right?
29:22
Because,"Well, I don't have a mental illness." I know, but you have mental health, and we wanna give you these tools, But it's got this negative connotation, like- So what do you call it then?
29:32
Mental performance.
29:33
Okay.
29:33
Mental skills coach, We're just talking about tools to regulate ourselves, I wish, if I'da had these tools, Um, I always tell people, if I'da had these tools and known these things I know now 30 years ago, man, I would've been a much better coach.
29:53
I would've been a much better husband.
29:55
I'd have been a much better father.
29:58
But more importantly is, I would've l- lived life a lot happier.
30:02
I would've enjoyed life more.
30:04
And that's what we have to understand, that our mental health affects everything that we do, You can have a broken ankle and still go to class.
30:12
You can still be a good husband, father, son, brother, um, those things.
30:20
But if your mental health is bad, then it's tough to be a good husband, father, son, brother, all those things.
30:29
that's why the mental health piece we really have to talk about and be willing to work on and share what we are experiencing'cause people can't see it.
30:40
I love one of your quotes that said,"Depression is not your problem.
30:44
Your problem is you don't do anything about your depression." It's one of the first things my therapist said to me.
30:50
I, I was very blessed because my wife, an amazing woman, is well-connected in the medical field.
30:57
my incident happened January 31st on a Saturday night.
31:00
Monday morning, I was in to see a psychiatrist at the University of Minnesota.
31:06
That doesn't happen.
31:08
If I'd had an appointment in March, I would've gone.
31:11
I'd have talked my way out of it by then, or at least when I went, I wouldn't have been honest, right?
31:15
Mm-hmm.
31:16
Um, Wednesday I went to see a therapist in Duluth.
31:19
I told my wife,"I'll start here.
31:20
I got this name from somebody, but it's a starting point, but I gotta wait to find somebody I can be open and honest with." Um, I ended up seeing that guy from February of 2015 till, April of 2018 when I left Duluth.
31:36
Had I known what I know now with Zoom, I'd probably still be seeing him, but we didn't have that back then.
31:42
So, um, in my first meeting, one of the first things he said to me was,"Depression is not your problem." I'm like,"Yes." He's like,"The fact you don't take care of your depression, that's your problem.
31:53
Like deal with it," If you, if you have diabetes and don't deal with it, you're probably gonna have health conditions, right?
31:59
A lot of people have this.
32:00
Deal with it.
32:02
And I decided to take control of my depression because before that, my depression controlled me.
32:08
So that, that's a message that I give to everybody.
32:11
That's so solid.
32:12
And I think one of the things that Faces stress is that I appreci- appreciate about them is that- We can talk about it, but we have to do more than talk about it.
32:24
We have to work on it.
32:26
We have to do the work.
32:27
We were talking about that earlier, my office at the school, I had to walk by the weight room for 15, 14 years.
32:34
I never got in better shape.
32:36
Apparently, you had to use equipment.
32:38
Huh, weird.
32:38
You have to do the work?
32:39
Yeah.
32:39
What?
32:39
Exactly, we have to do the work, and it's not always easy.
32:44
because sometimes we gotta look in that mirror, and sometimes we don't like what we see.
32:49
But we have to understand, we can change that.
32:51
That doesn't mean that's who we have to be.
32:53
I can say it's well worth it deferring reality and being stuck in that rumination trap.
33:01
It's like a case study in how bright people can be capable of not seeing what they don't wanna see.
33:08
Mm-hmm.
33:10
And the way you explained it, that it's-- this is just another facet of our overall health.
33:15
It doesn't mean somebody is not well overall.
33:19
It, it's just going through the rigors of life.
33:22
But it's the one thing we cling to and just so reluctant to just have a conversation.
33:29
This has been super helpful today.
33:31
I re- can't thank you enough for, for coming in and sharing some of your, your own story.
33:37
And as you look back on...
33:40
Like, what other piece of advice would you give your younger self, or if you go back to 2015 or before that even?
33:47
Be open and honest with yourself and share the way you feel.
33:53
It's okay to be vulnerable.
33:55
um, we're gonna look at things differently because of our lived experiences But at the end of the day, how do we want it to be, If I wanted to be like a Tony Dungy, like a Phil Jackson, like a Jerry York, I should have learned how to be like that.
34:17
I just thought I could do all this stuff myself.
34:19
Yet there's other things we don't do ourselves.
34:21
We get help for our taxes, we get help to fix our cars, we get help from a doctor, right?
34:27
Teach me how to control my emotions'cause I, I couldn't control my emotions.
34:32
Okay.
34:34
Learn how to do that.
34:36
I wasn't willing to reach out because now that's a weakness on my part.
34:40
you know, reach out, be open, be honest with yourself and with others.
34:46
but at the same time, for some of us, we do have an illness.
34:49
I do have an illness.
34:51
I'm not here to, to push this or not.
34:53
Um, I'm on medication.
34:57
I know some people that have been on medication, got off medication.
34:59
That's fine, right?
35:00
People have told me,"Well, I, I don't wanna take medication." Okay.
35:05
But what now?
35:06
'Cause doing nothing is an option, and I tried that option for many years, and I wouldn't say it's a good one, But do something.
35:15
this isn't a choice of mine.
35:18
I didn't choose to have depression.
35:19
I didn't say someday,"God, I hope I get depression.
35:21
That'd be so cool." Wouldn't that be swell?
35:23
Yeah.
35:23
Woo-hoo.
35:24
but it doesn't have to define me either, but it did for a long time.
35:29
Now I, you know, I control it now.
35:31
I define myself what I wanna do.
35:34
And, you know, for me, I wish we would've had these messages, I wish we would've had these podcasts, you know, when I was younger, and I wish I would've listened to them, because the one thing about this is this does not discriminate.
35:49
Mental illness does not discriminate.
35:53
Young, old, rich, poor, male, female, white, Black, it doesn't matter, right?
35:57
And again, we talked about this earlier off, um, the podcast about, you know, pro athletes, right?
36:04
Just'cause they sign a$10 million contract doesn't mean they're immune from getting injured now.
36:09
Doesn't mean they're immune from not having mental health challenges, But yet everybody looks at them or, or we look at ourselves and say like,"How could I have mental...
36:20
Why would I have depression?
36:22
I got a great life.
36:23
I got great kids, a great wife." Like,"I don't have that." You have everything.
36:27
Yeah.
36:27
Right?
36:27
Or,"Well, I shouldn't be sad.
36:31
I have it better than other people.
36:32
They have it worse than me." Well, they do, but this isn't a competition, and it doesn't mean you're immune to this.
36:40
This is an illness, and it's a, it's a very tough illness, but you can control it too.
36:48
80, you know, um- 80% of people that get help for depression, now we're talking about the diagnosable piece, 80% of people that get help for that recover.
37:00
It's a pretty good stat.
37:01
That's big.
37:02
You know?
37:02
I mean, if, if we said,"Hey, 80% of people that have this disease or that disease rec- uh, recover," we'd be like,"Okay, I'm gonna get through this." but I think the first step is talking about it, and that's what you guys are doing at The Masons, and that's what I appreciate so much, that, as a person that lives with this, I think hearing the things that you're doing, even having this podcast, means so much because it moves the needle, that it's making change.
37:33
Face It, again, um...
37:37
Well, just for transparency, Mark and Bill, you know, they, they run the place.
37:42
I go there, and, Since I moved to the cities in 2018, I got introduced to Face It by an old college teammate of mine, and I've been going to Face It every other week since 2018.
37:55
Um, I've been in, you know, two or three groups at a time'cause I'm a mess.
38:00
but it's so rewarding to go there and be able to be honest and open with other guys that get me, that get it, and, and I think there's nothing stronger than that peer support, right?
38:14
And again, hey, there's, there's professional support and that stuff, but that peer support is so important to realize you're not alone.
38:22
And that's the culture shift that we are seeking in our Masonic circles.
38:27
And you're creating.
38:28
So I appreciate that If a stranger had to live your life for 24 hours, what would they probably screw up the most?
38:41
Uh, n- probably not much,'cause I screw most of it up myself, so that would probably be an improvement for them.
38:47
Um, what would they screw up the most?
38:50
Maybe being late for things, but I do that myself, so that's a, that's a tough one.
38:56
You stumped me What's been your favorite age?
39:02
You know, that, that's a great question.
39:04
We-- Somebody asked that the other day.
39:07
We were talking, a group of us, what age would you like to go back to, if you could?
39:11
Cause I'm in my, um, 60s.
39:16
I would say, my late 50s to early 60s, since 2015, the last 11 years, because I've been healthy.
39:25
Now, I would l- that's been my favorite time.
39:29
Now, I had experiences in all those other ones, but I'm doing things now where I can actually enjoy them,'cause I wasn't enjoying things back then, and that gets into a whole nother thing we don't have time to talk about, but being present.
39:43
I'm able to be much more present now and enjoy these things because I got the help.
39:48
But I would say the last 10 years I've really enjoyed.
39:52
The flip side of the card says: What's been your least favorite age, and why?
39:57
probably my 40s because at that time I was so busy I opened up a gym and then I got back into coaching I was so busy and I wasn't in a good mental spot that, I just wasn't around as much and I wasn't the person that I wish I could have been at that point What is the best thing you've ever splurged on?
40:21
I, I would say for me, my, my wife would la- laugh at this because splurge for me takes a long time.
40:28
I bought a fishing boat, probably about'14, 2014.
40:34
I just love going out...
40:35
Uh, we were living up in Duluth at the time, just going out on lakes.
40:39
that, that was something just for me.
40:41
You know, I was the only one in our family.
40:43
The kids didn't fish.
40:44
My wife didn't like to go out, you know, fishing all the time.
40:46
She liked to go out and sit in the boat.
40:48
But, probably that fishing boat, and it was the toughest thing to get rid of when we moved down to the cities in 2018 because that was kind of my way to get out at the time and just be by myself and, and have some, some quiet time What's something you'd like to learn how to do at this point in life?
41:11
Oh, man.
41:12
play the guitar.
41:14
And I bought a guitar in Probably 1993 I was coaching at Augsburg at the time.
41:21
We were living in the cities.
41:22
I went to one of these, Schmidt or something, to take some lessons or whatever, but never really learned how to play it.
41:29
And, you know, I was coaching, recruiting, busy, and then kids came and all that stuff.
41:32
I have that guitar, and we've moved with it, and my wife's like,"Can we just get rid of this?" I'm like,"Nope, I'm gonna learn how to play it." I go on YouTube every now and then and look up for some stuff and, and I'll practice for a little while, and my fingers don't work that way, and I get so frustrated, but I'm not getting rid of that thing.
41:49
Um, I'm gonna learn to play that guitar.
41:51
You won't be Eddie Van Halen overnight- but you gotta keep at it.
41:54
I know.
41:55
I know.
41:56
But one of my strengths isn't patience.
41:59
Uh-huh.
41:59
I wanna play it, and I wanna play it now.
42:00
Right.
42:01
With anything.
42:02
But, I am gonna learn how to play that guitar Mark Wick, this has been a fantastic conversation and very enlightening for all of us to realize this takes work.
42:15
Mm-hmm.
42:15
It takes commitment.
42:16
We can talk about it or we can do something about it and really help one another through this journey of life.
42:23
And I appreciate being on here and having this opportunity just to talk about it, like I said before, and hopefully start the conversations when, you know, people listen to this, they can go to somebody else and say,"Hey, I heard, you know, these guys talk, and it made me think about this.
42:38
How are you doing?" if I can just end with a couple messages.
42:42
Number one, I think that, we don't always know how many people care for us and love us, and it doesn't always feel that way, but that is true, and people would be devastated if anything happened to you.
42:56
you know, try to remember that and reach out to those people and let them know.
43:00
And I think the other thing that we need right now in this world is we need much more kindness.
43:05
We don't know what that person next to us is going through, and our, ability to be kind to them might make a difference in their world.
43:14
But at the same time, I challenge people to try to be kind to themselves because that's the one person that sometimes we're really, really mean to.
43:24
So give yourself some grace, give yourself some compassion.
43:28
So be kind to others, but more importantly, be kind to yourself.