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Legally Brunette: The Yogurt Shop Murders · Legally Brunette

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hi guys, Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane Shane Simpson.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: First of all, again just a reminder, we are now
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: on our own feed, so if you could, if you
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: love listening to us, you can go over to our
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: feed called Legally Brunette. It's so much easier to find
• 0:22
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• 0:25
  Speaker 1: all of our episodes are now populated there so you
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: don't have to kind of go through two Teas to
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: locate them. Also, just a big shout out and thank
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: you to Two Teas. That was definitely a huge help
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: for us to launch this podcast. It allowed us to
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: have an audience that could come and listen and really
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: enjoy us. So a big thank you to them for
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: allowing us to get our start.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, thank you.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: So today, let's do just a little bit of updates.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: There were a couple of things in the news that
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about because we've been following Menandez
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  Speaker 1: through all of this, so there were some new things
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: that came up, so let's just go through those. First
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  Speaker 1: of all, if you remember we talked about in earlier episodes.
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  Speaker 1: If you want to go back and listen to any
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: of our earlier Menindez episodes, there was a habeas petition
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: before Judge Ryan and that was basically asking for a
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: new trial based on new evidence. So recently the judge,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Judge Ryan denies the Menindez brothers petition for a new
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: trial and their latest setback that was an ABC News article.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: So last Tuesday, had Judge denied the Menindez brothers Habeas
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: corpus petition which they had submitted back in twenty twenty three.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: That was to throw out their old conviction and receive
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: a new trial based on recently discovered evidence. And if
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  Speaker 1: you do remember the two new pieces of evidence, do
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  Speaker 1: you remember what they were? The two new pieces of
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: evidence was.
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  Speaker 2: A letter from a childhood or a longtime friend or cousin, Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that claimed abuse. So it kind of corroborated the stories
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  Speaker 2: that the father was abuse, right.
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  Speaker 1: It was a letter that Eric Menindez had written to
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  Speaker 1: his cousin Andy basically alluding to the sexual abuse by
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  Speaker 1: his father Jose. So that was included in the habeas
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  Speaker 1: And the second piece of new evidence, do you remember
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  Speaker 1: the second one? The fingerprints on the knife no, no,
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  Speaker 1: there was no knife in case Ron case it was.
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  Speaker 1: There was a documentary that came out about the Menudo.
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  Speaker 1: A member of the Menudo, remember the band.
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  Speaker 2: Was another witness testimony, right.
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  Speaker 1: Roy Roussello, that's his name. I watched it. He also
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  Speaker 1: came forward and said that when he was a member
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  Speaker 1: of Menudo and he was very young, that he was
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  Speaker 1: also abused by Jose. And so those were the two
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  Speaker 1: pieces of corroborating evidence. However, the judge said that the
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  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight letter from Andy Cano, who was the cousin,
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  Speaker 1: about alleged abuse, was not very strong, even saying it
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  Speaker 1: contradicted the brother's attempts at a new trial. The judge said,
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  Speaker 1: neither piece of newly discovered evidence is particularly strong. The
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  Speaker 1: Cano letter contradicts in part the testimony of Eric and
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  Speaker 1: Andy Canno, who testified in the original trials. It also
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  Speaker 1: only corroborates what was already discussed at length by both witnesses.
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  Speaker 1: The two did discuss Jose's abuse. At best, it does
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  Speaker 1: not additionally inform the jury of petitioner's alleged fear at
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  Speaker 1: the time of the murders, and at worst, it puts
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  Speaker 1: a crack and the credibility of both witnesses. I'm not
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  Speaker 1: sure exactly what he means by the credibility of both witnesses,
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  Speaker 1: but I do understand where he's saying. The main issue
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  Speaker 1: is whether they were justified in killing their parents that
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  Speaker 1: night because they were fearful of their life, and that's
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  Speaker 1: why they claim that they got the shotguns and they
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  Speaker 1: shot their parents because they were afraid their parents were
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  Speaker 1: going to kill them. And he's saying, this letter corroborates
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  Speaker 1: the abuse, but it doesn't help.
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  Speaker 2: With the women at fear the eminent fear exactly.
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  Speaker 1: The judge also disputed the relevance of testimony from Roy Rosello,
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  Speaker 1: who is the member of Menudo. As for the Rosello
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  Speaker 1: declaration that corroborates the general allegation that Jose was sexually
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  Speaker 1: abusive of boys and young men, but it is not
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  Speaker 1: relevant to the petitioner's state of mind at the time
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  Speaker 1: of murders. It's the same thing. It's saying, Yeah, again,
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  Speaker 1: this corroborates that he was sexually abusive. However, again it doesn't.
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  Speaker 2: It just stops there. Yeah, Okay, we're not fine. There's abuse,
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  Speaker 2: but there's more needed in order to have a better
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  Speaker 2: defense exactly.
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  Speaker 1: So, speaking at a news conference on Tuesday after the
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  Speaker 1: judge's decision, La County District Attorney Nathan Hakman told reporters
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  Speaker 1: that the judge's decision amounted to a full cabash on
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  Speaker 1: the brothers habeas petition. And he's right now that the
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  Speaker 1: judge made a decision on the habeas petition. There's there's
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  Speaker 1: no other road that's done. There's nothing else to do,
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  Speaker 1: so that road is blocked. They still have the possibility
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  Speaker 1: of getting out on parole, which we spoke about previously
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  Speaker 1: when we did an episode on that's.
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  Speaker 2: Not for three years.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it said remember we were, it said eighteen months
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  Speaker 1: they would be eligible. I think they they in eighteen
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  Speaker 1: months they can start petitioning for parole and probably start.
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  Speaker 2: But if all goes well, it wouldn't be sooner than.
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  Speaker 1: Three to be sooner than three years. So anyway, that
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  Speaker 1: is their other option. And then there's always the option
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  Speaker 1: that Governor Newsome decides to uh.
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  Speaker 2: He actually wakes up and he wakes up attention.
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  Speaker 1: He's like, what he could commute them and you know,
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  Speaker 1: maybe getting people's.
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  Speaker 2: Good greases exactly, and the Menudo brothers and they're like, no, sir,
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  Speaker 2: Menendez brothers. We've gone over this before.
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  Speaker 1: It's Menendez, all right. So that is an update on Menendez.
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  Speaker 1: We'll keep following that and see what happens. I don't
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  Speaker 1: know what do you think the likelihood of them ever?
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  Speaker 1: Do you think they'll be paroled at some point? No, no,
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  Speaker 1: you don't.
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  Speaker 2: I have no reason to think they would in three
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  Speaker 2: years versus right now. All that's happened. Well, I don't
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  Speaker 2: know what could happen in the next three years. I
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  Speaker 2: guess they would have to use any different because then't
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  Speaker 2: they have like cell phone use. So they were.
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  Speaker 1: Right, they had some infractions and they had cell phone use.
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  Speaker 1: So I guess if they were just had a clean
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  Speaker 1: record for the next three years and they didn't have
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  Speaker 1: any maybe then you know, I think it's a possibility,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: but maybe again, we'll see. We'll continue to follow it.
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  Speaker 1: Another update, just a brief update on Lively in Baldoni.
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  Speaker 1: We took a step back from that because I was
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  Speaker 1: tired of talking about Blake Lively. But I think there's
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  Speaker 1: some interesting things that have come up in the trial recently,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: or not the trial, but the case. They're going to
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  Speaker 1: go to trial next spring at least that's on the calendar.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: We'll see what continues to happen. But Justin Baldoni has
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  Speaker 1: hired Alexandra's Shapiro to join his legal team amid his
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  Speaker 1: ongoing case with Blake Lively. If you don't remember the
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  Speaker 1: name of Alexandra Shapiro, she was part of Ditty's defense team.
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  Speaker 1: The addition of Shapiro to Baldoni's team comes as he
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  Speaker 1: is facing further scrutiny as another individual has come forward
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  Speaker 1: with claims of harassment. This is according to a newly
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  Speaker 1: filed court document, which was obtained by The Daily Mail. Also,
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  Speaker 1: I do remember when we talked, when I read all
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  Speaker 1: the legal documents in the beginning, when it came to
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  Speaker 1: Blake Lively, her original CRT, I think that's what it
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  Speaker 1: was called. It was the civil rights violation. Remember, it
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  Speaker 1: wasn't an actual This is.
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  Speaker 2: The form the allegations.
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  Speaker 1: And she alleged in that first initial complaint that there
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  Speaker 1: was someone else on this set that also had filed
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  Speaker 1: something against him for harassment, but she didn't name who
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  Speaker 1: it wasn't there wasn't any details and it was very vague,
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  Speaker 1: So I don't know if this is the same person.
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  Speaker 1: Or if this is someone different that they managed to find.
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  Speaker 1: In a sworn declaration filed by Blake Lively's lawyer, the
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  Speaker 1: individual whose name has been redacted alleged they endured repeated
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  Speaker 1: negative interactions with mister Baldoni and his associates, including verbal
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  Speaker 1: abuse by mister Baldoni. The unnamed person further claimed that
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  Speaker 1: Baldoni was not permitted on set during the majority of
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  Speaker 1: production as a result of those experiences. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: if this person is referring to it ends with us.
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  Speaker 1: We've already discussed the fact that he wasn't allowed on
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  Speaker 1: set because Blake Lively make sure.
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  Speaker 2: That he was.
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  Speaker 1: He was taken off of the movie, So I don't know. Also,
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  Speaker 1: it's very hard for me to find this man to
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  Speaker 1: be verbally abusive. After all of the research. I've done everything,
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  Speaker 1: I've read, all of his text messages, all of his
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  Speaker 1: communications with Blake Blake Lively. I don't find him to
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  Speaker 1: be a.
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  Speaker 2: Verbally find her to be more verbally abusive than him. Well,
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  Speaker 2: I find things you've read and seen.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I've seen a lot of interviews with
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  Speaker 1: her where she's very self righteous.
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  Speaker 2: But even the text messages.
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  Speaker 1: She is and so I don't know. It's hard for
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  Speaker 1: me to believe that there's any type of verbal abuse
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  Speaker 1: when it comes to this man, I don't know, I
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  Speaker 1: don't I don't find it. I don't know. We'll have
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  Speaker 1: to have more information to find it credible. But the
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  Speaker 1: individual also said they requested that Baldoni not be involved
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  Speaker 1: in marketing or public relations efforts, which I again, I
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  Speaker 1: believe that that was Blake Lively requesting that he not
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  Speaker 1: be involved in any of the marketing. And he was
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  Speaker 1: removed from a lot of the things, even a premiere day, right, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: he was in the basement at premiere days. So I
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  Speaker 1: don't know who this other person is. This will be
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  Speaker 1: interesting once that comes out. A source told TMC that
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  Speaker 1: the individual is likely to testify against Justin and Lively's trial.
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  Speaker 1: The filing also references Baldoni's business partner, Wayfair co founder
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  Speaker 1: Steve Sorrowitz, noting that the accuser had been contacted by
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  Speaker 1: sorrowitz assistant to arrange a meeting, though no specific topic
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  Speaker 1: for the discussion was identified. The document was filed on
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  Speaker 1: September fourth of twenty twenty five and was submitted under
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  Speaker 1: penalty of perjury. Okay, I find this interesting because we'll
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  Speaker 1: continue to follow that because again, when we talked about
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  Speaker 1: this case earlier, Sorrowitz is kind of like a silent partner.
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  Speaker 1: But I do remember that she made allegations that he
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  Speaker 1: was on set when she was doing the birthing scene
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  Speaker 1: and that she was uncomfortable with him being there, and
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  Speaker 1: that I don't know. I just again, it just seems.
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  Speaker 2: Who would work with her? Again, I wouldn't.
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  Speaker 1: Well, when she reaches out to you and asks you
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  Speaker 1: to be in her next movie, you can.
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  Speaker 2: Tell her how I feel like I would. However, paying attention,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: my wife doesn't like you, no, allegedly alleged.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: We're gonna go on and move on to the bulk
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  Speaker 1: of what we're going to talk about today, which is
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: the Yogurt Shot Murders. This is a four part HBO series.
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  Speaker 1: It was recently just came out on HBO, so if
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: you have the opportunity to watch it, I think it
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: was very very interesting. It was done well.
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  Speaker 2: So.
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  Speaker 1: The Yogurt Shop Murders refer to a nineteen ninety one
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  Speaker 1: unsolved quadruple homicide of four teenage girls at an Austin, Texas.
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  Speaker 1: I can't believe it's yogurt. Do you remember that? Do
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: you remember those?
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  Speaker 2: No, I just remember I can't believe it's not butter. Oh, Margarine,
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: I don't remember that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well I do remember that. Yeah, I can't believe
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  Speaker 1: it's yogurt. They called it icbuy.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure it was a play on that phrase. Yeah,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: either way, right, so this was yeah, okay, now I remember, Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: the acronym icby they were popular.
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  Speaker 1: Like now, it's yogurt land right here. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: in other places, but here in southern California, there's a
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  Speaker 1: ton of yogurt lands. But it's the same it's the
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: same concept, but it was called I can't believe it's yogurt.
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  Speaker 1: It was a crime that shocked the community and left
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  Speaker 1: a lasting trauma. The victims were forced to the back
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  Speaker 1: of the shop. This is four young teenage girls, the
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: four victims and the yogurt shop murders. Two of the girls,
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  Speaker 1: Eliza and Jennifer, who were both seventeen at the time,
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  Speaker 1: worked at the shop.
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  Speaker 2: So they're closing shops. It was like eleven o'clock at night.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the end of the night. They're closing. There's
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  Speaker 1: two girls at work there. They're closing the shop. That's
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  Speaker 1: Eliza and Jennifer. They're seventeen. Sarah, who was fifteen, was
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  Speaker 1: Jennifer's younger sister, and then she was there with her
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: best friend Amy, who was thirteen. So you have four
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  Speaker 1: teenage girls in a yogurt shop chatting, having a good
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  Speaker 1: time cleaning up, closing a shop. Someone comes in and
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: forces them to the back of the shop, ties them up,
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  Speaker 1: gags them, and then shot all four girls to death
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: before the shop was then set on fire. The case
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  Speaker 1: has remained a significant mystery for years, complicated by aggressive
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: interrogation tactics which we're going to get into that led
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: to false confessions and questionable evidence, before newer technology and
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: investigations brought new focus to the case again. A docuseries
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  Speaker 1: titled The Yogurt Shop Murders chronicles the tragedy. It's on HBO. Also,
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  Speaker 1: what I thought was interesting about The Yogurt Shop Murders
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  Speaker 1: on HBO is the new director used a lot of
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: old footage from I think Variety was going to do
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: a docuseries on it, but for some reason it never happened,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: So they have all this footage.
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  Speaker 2: You're saying a docuseries was initiated, was initiated, Maybe they
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: went through they did a significant amount of it, and
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: then they dropped it.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: And then they dropped it. I don't know why it.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Was dropped, picked up where it left off and added
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: to it.
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  Speaker 1: And now now this is recent just it just came
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: out in twenty twenty five, in August, So they've used
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of that older footage, but they've also added
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: in a lot of new interviews with the family. Also,
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  Speaker 1: what's different about the Yogurt shot murders. It's true crime,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: but I think the director she didn't focus on true crime.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: She focused on the impact that grief has on the family. Oh,
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  Speaker 1: the family, the community and the families, but specifically the families,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: how it's been thirty years, how where they are, how
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: they've processed through it. I mean you have to think
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: about the one mother lost two daughters. Yeah, nice, and
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: they interview her and.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: In that horrific manner too. I mean, those are the
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: only thoughts that are going through your head when you're right,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: child was killed like that?
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Right. The director was named Margaret Brown, and I read
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: an interview with her and she told Variety, this is
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: in August of twenty twenty five, right after this docu
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: series came out that her team or her it's called
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: A twenty four, that's her production company covered some of
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: her team's therapy costs because they were photos of the
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: actual crime scene and that it was really hard on
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  Speaker 1: their system. Now, in the docuseries, they don't show actual
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: photos of the crime scene, obviously for respect to the
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: victims and the families. They show crime scene photos of
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: fire and evidence and things like that, but they don't
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: actually show bodies bodies, right, So let's just go through
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: a timeline of the events and then get to where
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  Speaker 1: we at today with this. So, on December sixth, nineteen
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: ninety one, around midnight, all SOMEO firefighters respond to a
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: fire at the camp I can't believe it's yogurt shop
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: on Anderson Lane. Inside they find the bodies of Jennifer, Sarah, Eliza,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: and Amy, all teenagers that were bound, gagged, shot in
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: the back of the head execution style, and the store
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: had then been set on fire. I mean clearly the
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: fire was set as a way to.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: Destroy the evidence exactly.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: So nine days later, this is December fifteenth, and nineteen
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: ninety one, the police stop this young kid named Maurice Pierce,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: he's sixteen at the time, at the North Cross Mall.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: He has a twenty two caliber pistol tucked into his waistband.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: And that's the same type of gun that was used
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: in the murders. Yes, same caliber anyway, so the twenty two.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Was considered a possible match for the murder weapon. They
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: bring Maurice in for an interview and he's interviewed by
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: police Sergeant Hector Polanco, and the interview starts at midnight. Now,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: this is interesting. This kid is sixteen. He gets brought
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: into the police station. He's sixteen years old. He doesn't
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: have a parent with him. I believe.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: That's my question is like, if we had a sixteen
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: year old and they don't come home, we'd want to
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: know where they were. And if the police called and said, oh,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: he's in our interrogation room, you would drive down. I
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: would think, like, okay, where. So I don't know, maybe
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: you do. I don't know what's going on, But a
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: sixteen year old in a police station at midnight is
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: already posing some concerning questions exactly.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: And there's other boys that become involved and will go
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: through that. But according to the docu series. And I
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: think this is interesting is that these boys come from
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: broken families. And I think that this kid, this kid,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Maurice Pearce, was known as like a bad kid, right.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: He was like the kind of like punk kid in town.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: He takes a gun to the mall. He's just he's
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: known to be a troublemaker. Also, the fact that he
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: starts getting interviewed at midnight. Who gets interviewed at midnight?
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Why are they interviewing a teenager at midnight?
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: That's why I'm wondering, this is already off to a
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: bad start.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Right. Also, this Hector Polanco who interviews him, I just
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: want to read a little quote about him, because they
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: focus on a lot of problems with Hector. Hector polonco
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: new interrogation. This is what Detective John Jones says, who's
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: the main the main investigator on this case and they
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: interview him in this series. He says, you know, he
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: was a cobra. He had the reputation and homicide for
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: solving the tough cases. Now, when he said that, I
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: thought solving the tough cases or getting people to admit
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: to things that maybe they didn't possibly do. So they
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: also interview in this docuseries Detective Mike Huckabee, who worked
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: on the case. He also speaks to Polanco in the docuseries,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: and this is what he says about him. The sad
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: thing about it is Hector really is a good investigator.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: He's a very good investigator, but he don't use it right.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Hakkabee says, I've seen him get confessions from somebody that
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: did not have a thing to do with it. But
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Hector can scare the shit out of you and make
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: you confess. He can. He's okay with it. As long
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: as he gets a confession, he's okay. So this is
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: the man who was interviewing a sixteen year old at midnight.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: So I just wanted to give those kind of background
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: information on what people say about Hector and think about Hector.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: So he interviews Maurice. I'm not sure exactly how long
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: the interview goes, but it starts at midnight and the
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: and he actually gets some type of confession from him.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: I don't think Maurice says that he's actually involved himself,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: but he names other people and he does give some
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: type of confession as to what happened that night. Then
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: after Polonko's done with him. I'm sure he interviews him
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: all night long. Then the lead investigator, John Jones comes
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: in the next morning and he's like, hey, I need
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: you to take a written statement. He just confessed. So
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: John Jones then takes a written statement. The written statement
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: is almost completely different than the oral interview that he
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: gave just earlier over the night.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Is like factually different, yeah.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Factually different. Like it's just you know whatever he was
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: telling you know this this Cobra Polonko in this overnight interview. Listen,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: I go to bed at nine o'clock. If the police
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: call me in to an interview at.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: Midnight, like Shane's in the interrogation room at midnight, and
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: you'd be like, okay, me in the morning.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But I'm saying, but if I'm saying, if I'm
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: getting interviewed a midnight, yes, I'm like, I might. I
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: don't know what I would agree.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: The difference is you would know a little bit more
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: of your rights and you would be like, I'm not
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: gonna you know, I need an attorney or if you're
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: not holding me against my will, then I'm going to
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: go home. But his sixteen year old right a six
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: year old is going to be intimate, especially if they're
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: carrying a gun. And if he didn't do anything wrong,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: he's just playing and he has a gun, which I
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: don't approve of. But he has a gun and he's
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: just being playful, or he thinks he's cool and he
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: has a gun and then this happens, He's gonna be scared, right.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: So again, Maurice never actually confesses to the murders himself,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: but he does claim his friend Forrest Welborn took his
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: pistol and told him that he shot the girls and
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: that he liked watching them burn. So he's not admitting
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: that he himself was involved, but he's naming other people
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: that were involved. Police wire Maurice to get a confession
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: from Forrest, but the confession never comes. He actually like
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: gets wired and goes and talks to his friend Forrest
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: about it, and friend Forrest never he never admits to
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: anything or says that he was involved.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: In any way because he wasn't involved.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: Forrest insists that it was just a joke and that
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: he had nothing to do with the murders. He was
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: with Maurice the whole night. Then eight years later, so
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: that goes nowhere, right right, They don't really get much
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: of a confession. They try to get Forrest, you know,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: on wiretaps saying that he was involved, he doesn't admit
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: to doing anything there. Also, there's no physical evidence taken
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: from this crime scene because of the fires. Then when
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: the fire department arrives and they hose everything down, everything
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: gets wet, so then you can't get fingerprints. They don't
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: have They have very very small amounts of DNA, but
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: again this is nineteen ninety one, so they can't.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Really run it.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: It's not testable at that time in nineteen ninety one.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: You have to have large amounts of liquid to be
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: able to test it back then, so they don't have anything.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Well, and with the fire, probably whatever other DNA was
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: available that it might have been testable at the time
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: is now destroyed.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: So then eight years later we get to nineteen ninety eight,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: So nothing happens with this case until nineteen ninety eight.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Police revisit Maurice's involvement in this case and ask why
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: he gave conflicting statements, So they bring him back in
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: to the police station. And you know this is interesting too,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: because I was talking about this with Jasmine who works
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: with the Innocence Project with me, and she was saying,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: what's so sad about this? In these interrogations. She told
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: me she has a hard time watching the interrogations. Is
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: what she said is that when people go down to
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: the police station, they're going because they think they're helping, right,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: they're showing it up.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Like the guy that says I was on that bridge. Yeah,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: last week he said I was on that bridge, right, Like,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: let me know if you have any.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Questions, right exactly in this case, that's interesting you brought
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: it up. That's Richard Allen from the Delphi murders. I
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: find this case to be very similar to Richard Allen
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: and the Delphi murders. And we can talk about.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: That a little bit. They have a suspect and so
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: they make it fit the crime.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, you're talking about teenage girls that
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: are that are murdered and horrific ways. You're talking about
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: no DNA evidence, no fingerprints, no physical evidence left behind
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: in either one. There's a large time lapse that goes
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: by where they don't have a suspect. Then they're bringing
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: people in and they're basically coercing them into confessions and
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: telling them that they were there. It just the Delphi murders.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to that, we did that podcast
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: last week. It's very there's a lot of similarities between
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: these two cases. So they bring Maurice back in. This
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: is in nineteen ninety eight, this is eight years later,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: and they ask why he gave conflicting statements. Maurice can't
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: remember anything, and he never actually confesses, but he does
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: point fingers at the three boys he was with that night.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: So again he never confesses himself that he was involved,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: but he does say that there were three other guys
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: that he was with that night that were involved in
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: the case. So then this is September of nineteen ninety nine.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: First they bring in Forrest Welborn. He's the one that
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: they originally tried to get on a wiretap, admitting that
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: he was involved. Bring him back in. He shows up again.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: This is the other thing. They just keep going to
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: the police station alone with no no one with them,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: no attorney, president, they don't ask for an attorney, and
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: they go in and they sit there and I don't know.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: It's free. Yeah, well this is okay, isn't didn't you
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: tell me something about their legislation to try to make
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: it if you're under age, an attorney has to be
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: afforded to you without you like expressing your need for
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: an insue.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that actually came out of the Terrell Swift
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: case that if you watch Housewives, I I did a
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: scene with Tourell. Remember he was convicted when he was
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: very young, and then he find he signed a false
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: he was he was under age.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: He was overly interrogated by the police to the point of.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Confession false confession. He spent twenty years in prison. He
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: was exonerated by DNA evidence that came out later and
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: then recently, I don't know the name of the bill,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: but there was a recent California bill that was passed
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: because of his case that he advocated for. That has
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: to do with not being able to interrogate a minor
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: without an attorney. This is present.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: This is a state thing is yes, this is California.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: This is a no other states that have that as well, right,
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: I mean it.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Should be federal, but it's not. But there's no way
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: that you should ever be able to interrogate child.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: You want our kids' friends, come on. I feel bad
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: like if I'm going to, like, you know, talk to them,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: and oh.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: You get nervous talking to them.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: Parents.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: That's Shane, He's weird. He's taller in person, all right.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: So then Maurice Pierce names Michael Scott. They bring him
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: into interrogate him. Let' 's talk about Michael Scott's interrogation.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: They interrogate him for over twenty hours, and again he's
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: backed into a corner. He's got two investigators in his face.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: The real question is do you feel free to leave? Right?
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: That's the legal standard.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Well, yes, that is a legal standard. Does anyone ever
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: feel free to leave when you have a police officer
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: standing there and talking to you and then questioning you
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: about something. No one ever feels free to leave.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Not when you're at the farthest point of the room
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: from the door, and you have two investigators ten inches
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: from your face leaning forward into you, talking about and
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: asking you about a crime. I don't think anyone would feel.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: No one free to leave, and I can't blame them
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: for not feeling free to leave. But the courts say that,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: They say, a reasonable person you just jumped.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Up and walked out. Sorry, guys, right, No one does
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: that anyway? Also in Michael's interrogation, they actually pull out
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: a gun at a point because they're re enacting the
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: crime scene, right, and they're saying, Michael, this is what
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: you did. You were there, here's the gun. You know,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: you went up behind her and you put the gun
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: behind her. And they have an actual gun and they're
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: brandishing it in face, start putting.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: It to the back of his head, even if it's
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: not loaded. Pointing a gun at someone.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: That's scary, right, Well, again, a reasonable person standard, do
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: you feel free to leave?
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't feel threatened?
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Another tactic that they use in these interrogations that was
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: just so clear to me that this is just psychological
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: warfare at this point, right is they're saying, Michael, you
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: know what happened you you tied the girls up? How
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: did you do it? You know how you did it?
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: And the first thing he says is shoelaces, And that's
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: not right, right, it wasn't shoelaces. So they're like, no, Michael,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: you're not remembering it right. You got to think harder, Michael, Right, Michael,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: it wasn't shoelaces.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: What was it?
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: And then he's like electrical cords and they're like, no, Michael,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: it's not electrical chords. Think harder. I think he even
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: goes on to say napkins. I'm sure this guy's trying
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: to think of everything possible he could think of. And
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: then finally he's like clothes and they're like, yes, that's it, Michael,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: because they were bound by their clothing. And so, I mean,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: after four attempts, he finally gets it right and they're like, see, Michael,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: now you remember, now you remember what you did that night.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Goodness. It reminds me of when I worked at Target
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: as an investigator for internal external theft, and anytime we
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: would catch someone internal right, someone on the inside stealing,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: which was more valuable. It was a really a big deal.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: If you can catch someone on the inside, because there
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: were more of a liability, you would interrogate them. So
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: you already have all the evidence. You already have the videos,
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: you have the receipts, you have everything. Now you just
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: want a confession for added you know kicks right, So
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: you go and you get them confessed. But you they
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: had rules. Target had rules. You could not be between
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: them and the door. Nothing could be between them and
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: the door, and the door had to be cracked open,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: so they felt free to leave, and it was really important.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: And one of the tactics I use, which cops use,
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: which is I don't believe you're a bad person.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: You just made a bad choice, right you use that?
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well no, What I would say is Target's
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: a billion dollar company. They don't care about socks and
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: underwhere right, it's a big deal. Is they want to
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: straighten it out and get their money back. So just
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: you're right down everything you stole and the value. Let's
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: let's get it squared away, let's be done.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: So you were doing that thing, or you're building rapport,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: you're being their friend.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Which cops do, which is yes, and which is true
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: because I was saying, let's clear it up, write everything down,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: because you're gonna have to pay them back. I didn't
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: let them know that I already called the sheriff and
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: they're coming to arrest them afterwards once they make apussion. No, no, no,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: I was truthful.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: You just omitted things.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: I just didn't.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, omission exactly right.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Anyway. The point is cops can be crookedly and shady.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Yes. Also, I think the point of your story is
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: I feel like Target has stricter.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Uh oh yeah, way strict, way stricter. Liability. Cops have immunity, right,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Can they see the cop and say you assaulted me
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: by putting the gun? Now not really, I mean the
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: police department maybe, and it gets buried. But private organizations bam,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: big loss, deep pockets. Right.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: Lastly, they interrogate Robert Springsteen. Robert claims that he went
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: to a Rocky horror picture show that night. When they
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: bring him in for the interrogation, he's very adamant and
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: he's believable. He's like, I had nothing to do with this.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: I wasn't there. Again, those four guys were kind of troublemakers,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: and they were all together that night. But they're all
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: pointing fingers at each other.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: They don't know what's going on.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: No, and none of their none of their stories really
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: add up. He claims that he does remember that he
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: was at a rocky horror picture show that night. The
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: police then lie to him and tell him that there
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: wasn't even a showing that night. And you can tell
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: during the interrogation when they say to him, hey, we'll
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: just tell you that there wasn't even a showing that night,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: that he's dumbfounded. He's like, but I but I remember
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: being there. I remember going And then when they lie
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: to him and say there wasn't a showing, then you
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: can tell that he's That's when they start to get
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: him and they start to get him to confess because
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: he's very confused about what's going on, and you're talking
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: about these are guys in their twenties. They're not. I don't,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: I don't I think any of them are highly educated.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: They can't find anyone in.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Their early twenties is inexperienced to deal with even someone
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: in their forties might be inexperienced to deal with all this.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: He does remain adamant that he wasn't at the yogurt shop,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: and he asked to take a light detector test. This
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: is in the beginning of the interrogation, but after hours
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: of interrogating, he eventually confesses to being there, just like
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Michael Scott does. And then they start talking about things
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: and obviously this again, how would they know details of
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: this case. This case was very huge and there was
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: a lot going on in the media. They also had
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: claimed that they bought a paper the next day when
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: they were in the stolen vehicle. And went to San
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Antonio that they bought a paper and read about the murder.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: So whatever these memories are that are coming up.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they have some familiarity with.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Murder, having exactly exactly a lot of this issue with
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: the false confessions, which they actually go into in the docuseriies,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: and I was kind of glad that they did. That.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Is they say that the police use a nine step
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: interrogation process, and it's widely known as the Read technique.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: It's been heavily criticized for increasing the risk of false
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: confessions and for being psychologically manipulative and coercive. Tactics used
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: in the Read technique, like psychological pressure, deception, moral justification,
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: can be very effective at eliciting confessions from both guilty
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: and innocent people. And I don't to me, that's what
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: it seems like. I mean, did these boys really have
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: anything to do with this murder that night? My takeaway
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: is no.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: At least not. The evidence doesn't show that the evidence
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: is weak, right at.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Best, they end up being tried. First of all, Force
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: ends up we talked about earlier. Force ends up getting
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: off because he supposedly wasn't involved in it. They'd say
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: that he was like the getaway driver or something. They
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: don't have any physical evidence. The judge let's out on bail.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: He that's the End's good to them. Yeah. Robert Springsteen
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: is tried convicted of capital murder, largely based on just
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: his confession because again they have no physical evidence capital murder.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Day on that evidence, Yes, he gets sentenced to death.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: This is in May of two thousand and one. Michael
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Scott goes to trial.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Wait, so he is sentenced.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, Robert Springsteen is tried in front.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: Of it jury and is sentencing is death.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: He has found guilty of capital murder and it's all
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: based on his confession or the other people's confession, them
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: naming him, and he is sentenced to death. Again, there
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: is no DNA evidence, there is no fingerprint, there is
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: no physical evidence that ties other witnesses.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: There's nothing.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Well, the four guys naming each other in their interrogations.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Michael Scott then goes to trial. His confession is used
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: as the main evidence. Again, there's no fingerprint, DNA, there's
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: nothing that ties him to the crime. He's convicted of
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: capital murder and he receives the life in prison. Maurice
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Pierce who was the original kid that was brought in
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: for interrogation because he's the one that went to the
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: mall with the gun and the twenty two caliber. He
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: spends some time in jail awaiting trial, but prosecutors eventually
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: drop the charges due to having no physical evidence against him,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: and he would never actually confess. So he's the only
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: one that never actually confessed to being there and being
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: part of this crime. So the DA drops a case
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: against him. However, they make it very clear that he's
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: still a suspect in their eyes.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Sot there.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Well, you've got the two gods. So there are four
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: that are all naming each other and they're all being interrogated.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: You've got two that are convicted, and then you've got Maurice,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: who actually is The charges are dropped against him because
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: because he never said that he was actually there. He
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: named other people, but he didn't say he was there. Okay,
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: now they go to prison. They spend about ten years
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: in prison, and then they both get there convictions overturned
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: because there are blatant constitutional errors. They So we're talking
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: about Robert Springsteen and Michael Scott. They both have separate trials. However,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: both pleaded the fifth and did not testify on their
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: own behalf. Also, during their trials, and you'll understand this
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: because this is a sixth Amendment issue, they used confessions.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: So in Robert's trial, they use confessions from Michael Scotts.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: A made a confession and pointed to B. B made
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: a confession and pointed A. A pleads the fifth. Therefore he
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: can't be put on the stand. B pleads the fifth.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: Therefore he can't be put on the stand. Therefore A
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: cannot question B and confront his witness or the accuser,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: and B cannot question A and confront his accuser. And
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: therefore the confession is inadmissible because you're allowed to. You
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: have a constitutional right to address your accusers exactly.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: So, just to simplify that, you have the these.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Guys are simple, Well it was.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of a's and b's in there. But
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: basically what happened is these guys are accusing each other
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: during these interrogations, and then they have these written confessions. Correct.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: They take the written statements and they bring it in
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: and show it to a jury as evidence. However, you
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: can't have Michael Scott's confession during an interrogation against Robert
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: without being able to then cross examin Michael Scott. And
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Michael Scott didn't testify, so there was no way to
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: cross examine him. So again there were blatant Six Amendment violations.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: So in June of two thousand and six, the Texas
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Court of Criminal Appeals overturns Robert Springsteen's conviction, ruling his
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: rights were violated because he did not cross examine Scott,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: whose confession implicated him. And then in September of two
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: thousand and seven, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals overturns
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Michael Scott's conviction because he could not cross examine Robert Springsteen.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: So then they end up getting out of prison. Now
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: this is interesting because they do a whole thing in
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: the DA you know, does a press conference and speaks
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: and everything. So now we're in the early two thousands.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: This murder happened in nineteen ninety one, and again we
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: talked about DNA evidence. They had small traces, but in
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one it couldn't be tested. However, now we're
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: into like, you know, what are we in like two
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: thousand and eight, two thousand and nine. Now, so now
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: they have this thing called ystr DNA testing, so they
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: could use the small amounts of DNA that they found
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: during a vaginal swab. So they got some DNA from that,
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: but it was a very small amount. But now they
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: can test it. So I know they tested it thinking
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: that that DNA was gonna what match.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Back to who one of the guys that they coursed
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: into confessing.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Exactly, they think, okay, now we can we can do
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: this high tech new DNA testing.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Well they should be testing exactly.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: They've got this small amount of DNA from a vaginal swab.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: The full DNA pro file comes back and does not
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: match any of those four boys. So now you've got
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: a full DNA profile of someone else that's not any
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: of those.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Four yep, so to clear them. Yeah, yeah, So far
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: there were sentenced to One was sentenced to death. Imagine
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: had that been carried out exactly. That's why the death
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: all these a tough one to do because it's irreversible.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: You can let people out of jail, right, but you
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: can't bring him back to life.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: So the state claims that possibly the DNA could have
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: been contamination or a fifth person was involved. They do
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: not rule out the boys. The state tests everyone, and
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: then what the state does This is interesting too. First
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: of all, I watched the docu series and an attorney speaks.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: He's a defense attorney for Michael Scott, and he says,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: there's no way that it can be contamination because that
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: DNA sample is found in several other places. It's not
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: just and how can you have contamination on a rape
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: kit and the vaginal swuah, Like that's it's not like
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: in the Amanda Knox trial where they take a bunch
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: of knives and they'll throw them in a bag together.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: And that's what he's saying about the integrity of the department.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: That's you know, preserving the evidence in the you know,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: chaining command and all that, right.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: But what they did in order to rule out that
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: there was any type of contamination. And when I talk
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: about contamination, that means that someone, you know, someone in
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: the scene accidentally got some their own DNA. So the
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: state tests everyone that could have been present or near
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: the bodies, which was over two hundred men, and not
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: a single person matched. Right. So on June twenty fourth,
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: the two thousand and nine prosecutors announced that they cannot
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: retry Scott or Springsteen due to the new DNA evidence,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: both men are released from prison, and then in October
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: twenty eighth to two thousand and nine, all charges against
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: Scott and Springsteen are formally dismissed. You know what's interesting
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: is the families, And this also reminds me of the
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Delphi murders. The families still continue to believe that these
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: four boys are involved in some way. They do they do, yeah,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: And I was thinking about.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: It, and I don't want to say that they're not
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: allowed to think that. And obviously they know more about
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: the case than I do, and they're emotionally involved, but
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: it's because they probably have nowhere else to kind of.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Grief or yeah, yeah, yeah, you know it Also it
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: reminds me of Delphi too, because to me, I could
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: not find Richard Allen to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that he doesn't have the ability to
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: be the one that committed the murders, but to me,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: not beyond a reasonable doubt. And I feel the same
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: way about these four boys and this whole new DNA
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: profile that doesn't match any of them, But the families
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: still hold on to the fact that they think it's
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: these four boys, and I think you're right in what
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: you're saying. It's because they need something. Yeah, because I
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: don't know what it's like to go through that kind
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: of grief. No one does, and no one would judge that.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: And it's the same thing with the Delphi murders, where
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: the family is convinced that it's Richard Allen and they
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: can't really It's like tunnel vision, they can't really see
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: outside of that. And also it's because I do realize
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: that these families have a bond with the police officers
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: and the investigators.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: They they've been invested in in the accused for however
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: many years, right to the trials.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: And these investigators are following up with them. And what
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: are they saying, these guys did it, We know they
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: did it. We're going to get him for you, you know.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: And so they don't. They don't have the capacity, I think,
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: to look outside of that. This also is interesting. I
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: did not know this about the case, but Maurice Pearce,
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: who was the original ringleader, right, the one that took
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: the gun to the mall, he ends up being killed
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: in December of two thousand and nine in Austin. A
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: police officer. They try to pull him over during just
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: a routine traffic stop. I think he ran a stop
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: sign and instead of pulling over, he takes off and
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: he runs. They pursue him on foot and tackle him,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: and in this wrestling around, he grabs the knife from
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: the officer's belt and he stabs the officer in the
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: neck and the officer grabs his gun, shoots him and
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: kills him.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and did the officer survive?
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: The officer survived. Maurice died. And you know what's sad.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: This is what his defense attorney talks and.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: Says, Can I guess yeah, as the position that he
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: was fearful of police. Yeah, because he's had reason right
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: for years to be fearful of being convicted of a
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: crime he didn't commit.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Right. And also, what they don't they never ended up
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: telling these boys, or I think really even telling the public,
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: which it came out in this docu series, was that
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: original twenty two caliber gun that Maurice took didn't match.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: Didn't match.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Wait, so I never matched. They knew that from the beginning. Yeah,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: And they were focused on the Rocky Horror Picture show.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: They were focused on those boys and getting confessions out
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: of them.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: When it wasn't even the right guy.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: It wasn't the right gun. No, and that came out later.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: But this guy, you're right, he suffered from such severe PTSD,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: from being interrogated so many times, from being arrested, from
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: being put in prison, from thinking that he was going
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: to go on trial.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: He had no they're gonna get me after something else,
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: They're going to put me back in that jake exactly.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: So when he can you imagine, I can just picture
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: him in a car running a stop sign, which we've
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: all rolled through at some point.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Right, it's an infraction, an infraction.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: But then he ends up losing his life, which, by
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: the way, he shouldn't run from police. He shouldn't have
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: grabbed the knife. He shouldn't never understand what exactly I mean,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: they had every right to defend themselves, and.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, police got stabbed in the neck exactly stop exactly.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: But but his reaction wasn't I'll just pull over and
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: get a ticket, right, like a reasonable person would. His
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: reaction was to flee.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: And he may not even know why he was pulled over.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: He saw police, saw flashing lights start there after me.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: Again exactly, so you know this case, to me is
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: very sad. We were talking about this. It's a tragic case.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: First of all, it's tragic in the fact that there's
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: four young girls that lost their life one night for
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: for no reason at all, horrifically, horrifically lost their lives.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Then you've got these four boys who were interrogated.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: They were set back in their life for years, probably
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know what track they were on, you know,
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: to adulthood, but they were set back.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: And then the two of them spent ten years in prison,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: one set back ten years, one on death row, one
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: in for life. Yeah, and then you've got these families
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: that are grief stricken, and it's just this investigation did
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: nothing but cause more more tragedy, more tragedy, more loss
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: of life, more grief, more pain. Maurice And you can
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: honestly say, Maurice Pierce, even though he was a punk
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: when he was a kid or whatever, and he brought
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: a gun to the mall, if that kid never took
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: a gun to a mall that day, he'd still be alive.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: The whole catalyst of this entire situation with these four.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Boys, and this maybe a bit of a stretch, but
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: they might have also had better luck with finding the
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: actual criminals. Yeah, you're right, because if they were focused
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: all their energy on these boys, these young men, and
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: they're overlooking all other things, right, sort of like the
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: bridge guy, they overlooked that post it note that had
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: his phone number on it or whatever, because he was
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: at the scene at the bridge last week, and the
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: Delphi murders could very well be the same thing. Right.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: They get tunnel visions.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they overlook other there's a term for it. I
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: forgot what it is, but where they overlook other suspects,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: they're focused on one, and.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: Then when they focus on that one, they do everything
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: possible to try to make it fit.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like point a gun at their head, right like that.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: Twenty seventeen was the twenty fifth anniversary of the yogurt
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: shop murders. The Awesome Police reaffirmed that the case remains
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: open and active. The same DNA profile that was found
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: from Amy ey Or she was the one that they
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: got the vaginal DNA from, is found on other evidence,
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: but by different laps. So that's another thing that they
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: make clear that the investigator makes clear because they've had
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: three different sets of investigators, right, this case has been
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: going on for thirty years, so you had your original investigators,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: then you had a second investigative team. Now you have
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: a new cold case investigative team on it. And they
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: said that they clarified that this DNA sample could not
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: be contaminated because they've also sent it to two different
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: labs getting the same test results back, so they're adamant
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: that it is a completely different and want sect. In
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, it was the thirtieth anniversary, authorities confirmed
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: that the DNA profile is of an unidentified male, but
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: it still does not match anyone in the national database. However,
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: you know what, I read something, and this is interesting
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: to me because I don't even really understand what this means.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: But in twenty twenty, new DNA testing matched evidence from
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: the crime scene to an unidentified man. The Austin American
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Statesman reported. This was where I read it. Though the
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: FBI allegedly has a matching sample, they have not handed
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: it over to Austin investigators due to legal complications. Now
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: what do you think that means? To me? That sounds
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: like they they It says the FBI allegedly has a
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: matching sample, but they haven't turned it over to the
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Austin investigators due to legal complications.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: So that's legal complications.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: That sounds to me like they that the FBI made
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: some match, but.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: They're not going to give that the legal complications are.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: It's not the people we thought it was, That's what
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: it is. It's not the suspects.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: I don't understand how you can say that there's a
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: that they made some match, but they're not going to
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: hand that information.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: They say it was a match, No, it says.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: It says allegedly that they have a matching sample, but
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: they have not handed it over to Austin investigators due
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: to legal complications. Present day, the case remains unsolved. The
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: investigators continue to hope advance forensic technology will identify them
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: as That's.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: How it is. It's the legal complications.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. If I don't know,
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's very very well be saw. I told you
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: they swept stuff under the road, and then you brought
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: that out.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. See, I can't imagine that the FBI would have
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: a match and then they don't want to turn that
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: information over. I don't know, but I read that. I
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: think I read that the.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: Legal complications, it's the chief of police. Yeah, that's legally.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Complicated, right, Are there any signs that would point to
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: anyone else? Like, how are we ever going to find this?
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: The crime scene shows that the girls were in the
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: middle of closing up the store when this happened. It's
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: believed that two guys were the last in the shop.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Police identified fifty three customers that came in between four
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: thirty and eleven PM and a number of whom saw
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: these two men. Are they the killers? Why were they
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: never identified? Also, I do remember originally do you remember
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: they also originally blamed or brought in those two Mexican
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: There was a Mexican guy that was like a gang
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: leader or something. Oh yeah, yeah, two two of them,
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: I believe, and then they said that he did it.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: Well, then they were they were in they were they
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: were in Mexico. There were since then, like whenever they surfaced,
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: they were in Mexico. And then the authorities here wanted
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: an extra item or whatever, and then they claimed that
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: the Mexican government said no, we'll prosecute them, and then
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: that's it. That's that's as far as I heard.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: Well, they were also they also said that their interrogations
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: that they were slapped around and beaten, hit and to
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: get their confessions, because allegedly they gave a confession as
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: well and said.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: They did it, and the national practice they.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Just recanted the following day and and said that you
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: know that they were.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't know, this is terrible. Oh but
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: didn't they match the composite too well?
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that comps you know, composite drawings bother me.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: It's like it looks like you drew it and then
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: it wasn't. I mean, the they never.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Look I don't know. Sometimes they're pretty good.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I just think back to the Delphi
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: want to remember they had two different composites and like
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: one's an older guy.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm not saying they're always dead on, but it
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: is interesting if they look similar.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's another theory possibly with this case. All four
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: girls were members of the f FA, which is the
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Future Farmers of America, and could some guys have from
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: the FFA have done it because they were also they
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: were bound and gagged and you know when when they
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: you know, when they rope animals and stuff, they bind
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: them like the legs and stuff. And yeah, so I
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: don't know. That's another theory that maybe could have been explored.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but anyway, I'm.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Gonna go with the theory that the police sucked at
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: the investigation.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: That's a good theory, yeah, allegedly. All right, guys, thank
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: you so much for listening to Legally Brunette. We hope
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode. Also, just another reminder that we're
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: on our own feed so please find us, follow us,
• 49:47
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• 49:49
  Speaker 1: have to say. And again, if you have any cases
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: that you think are interesting that you would love for
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: us to cover. I always love the feedback, So thanks
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: for listening.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: M