Latest / Tracking Wisdom / Mastering Self-Reflection, Transforming Internal Narratives, Overcoming Negative Mindsets

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Mastering Self-Reflection, Transforming Internal Narratives, Overcoming Negative Mindsets · Tracking Wisdom

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  Foreign views, interpretations and opinions expressed are not advice nor official positions presented on behalf of any organization or institution.
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  They are for informational and entertainment purposes only.
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  Now join Ryan and Peter for another episode of the Tracking Wisdom podcast.
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  When I think about the article that was talking about Buddha's enlightenment and the idea of being brought into essentially instant all knowing awareness is actually something that is frequently also reported by people with the near death experiences and
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  some others.
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  One and I didn't have a good, I wanted like a short kind of excerpt video talking about.
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  So this is Dr.
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  Sue Mortimer.
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  She wrote a book called the Energy Codes and I've started but not finished reading, well listening to it and what I found interesting with her is she talks about kind of her, her backstory and stuff, but she found
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  herself amidst some in really heavy meditation group kind of thing and was brought into this giant, I imagine it like a gymnasium or something, you know, like a big room, all the lights off and they went through this
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  whole meditation and she found herself having this like out of body type experience thing where similar, basically similar experience to what the near death experience testimony sounded like to me.
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  And when I think about Buddha enlightenment or even other potential teachers who have reported to gain significant insight into the matter of things if they were experiencing these types of.
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  Through meditation or whatever, these out, you know, Buddha called it enlightenment or whatever, it's translated into enlightenment.
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  And this concept is sort of this abstract concept that's unattainable for anybody.
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  It's not but people I think would think that it might be unattainable for them.
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  Like oh, this was something that happened to this person, but can I do it?
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  You know.
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  And so I just.
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  When I hear the more modern attestations to this type of experience, it makes me wonder if that's kind of what happened to these other people and they just didn't know how best to describe it or this is how
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  we're describing it in our day and that's how they described it in their day.
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  And that there could potentially be many, many people who have enlightened through these types of either meditation or through trauma or whatever.
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  So maybe it's more accessible and, and real than sort of the myth feeling that comes from a story that's thousands of years old.
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  You know what I mean?
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  So that was just something that I found interesting and was it was sort of drawing a connection to in my mind was when we think about that enlightened state and that all knowingness it draws me to those kinds
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  of testimonies.
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  You know, that, that Calls to us.
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  I think I've mentioned before the star of Mara.
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  Right.
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  Mara, the, the, the adversary.
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  Right.
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  Kind of the Satan, the demon.
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  And in, in the context of enlightenment.
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  Okay, so Mara represents kind of our, our negative voices, right.
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  Our fears, Fears, temptations, you know, bad impulses that kind of saw the negative aspects of our personality.
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  And what I find, what I find very interesting is that Buddha was fully enlightened, supremely enlightened, like perfectly enlightened.
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  And that did not mean that he was free of Mara.
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  Like, he still had interactions with Mara, which I think is incredibly interesting, because certainly, you know, you would assume that, well, that enlightenment would mean you're trouble free.
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  Right.
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  You really, I mean, it just seems obvious.
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  And yet it's very clear in the stories that he has to interact with Mara, which means that he is experiencing negative mind states arising, which is I, I, I just find very exciting and remarkable.
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  Kind of to your point, what's unattainable, Right, right.
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  This kind of perfect experience, perfected experience or the state where your experience now becomes one of.
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  I never experience anything that's negative.
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  It's like, no, I mean, Buddha died in pain, right?
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  He had like some, you know, the story is that he ate, that ate bad pork and got a stomachache and died like he was, he was in pain.
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  He was definitely in pain, but he still died.
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  Well, so anyway, yeah, I just, I just think that's interesting.
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  So it's not that you don't have a negative mind state, it's just that you have a negative mind state and you immediately recognize, oh, there's a negative mind state.
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  And that's it.
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  Like, it's, oh, hi.
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  Hi, Mar.
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  Because that's in the stories.
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  That's what happens.
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  You know, the phrase is is, or it's his teaching, is that.
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  Or what he does in the story is Mara appears, and rather than being conflicted or adversarial, he says, oh, Mara, come, come sit down, have tea.
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  So anyway, I guess that kind of.
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  Goes to the mindfulness.
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  Yeah.
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  You know, recognize it without judgment.
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  Exactly, exactly.
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  So to bring it completely contemporary, it's raining practice.
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  Right.
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  So recognize, acknowledge, investigate, and nurture.
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  It was nurture.
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  I didn't like that word.
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  So at the same time, when you were talking about this what all knowledge kind of thing, you know, I'm very skeptical about that.
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  It's very hard for me to even kind of theoretically think about that and accept that even though I believe that that enlightenment is accessible to me, if I am able to not succumb to my Hindrances, right.
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  If I'm not, if I'm able to overcome the obstacles that I set for myself, that I could become enlightened.
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  I believe that the idea that what that would mean is that I would suddenly have perfect total knowledge is not realistic.
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  I, I don't believe that.
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  You know, and so it's kind of this weird to me in my mind, this weird dichotomy.
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  Yeah, like what you need infinite knowledge.
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  Like that's, you know, it doesn't really matter to me.
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  It's like it's irrelevant because, well, if I get that, then I'll know.
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  But of course, getting even my watered down version of acknowledge enlightenment is worthwhile.
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  Right.
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  So, and then, and then, of course, the journey is worthwhile, right?
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  Because I know that the practice itself is a good thing.
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  Like to be calmer and less reactive to people and kinder to people.
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  That's all good.
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  So it's all worthwhile.
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  The.
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  I think it was the book, but also, I've heard this other places.
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  But the being tied to outcome, that might be a mindfulness thing too.
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  I'm not sure.
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  But I think that's a big part of our negative experiences here is when we're so tied.
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  And now in the age of technology where we have instant gratification for like everything, it, it can be tough to, to not have the focus on the end point and to really just live in the moment on the
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  journey and enjoy the path wherever it takes us.
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  I mean, this is something that reminds me of kind of our management experience and things like crucial conversations and that, you know, the popular reaction is, well, they should be convinced, like, I'm using this tool.
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  They should be convinced they should do what I want.
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  And it's like, no, your job is to do your best and, and just in work in general, right?
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  You put in the hours and you put in the effort and it may not work out.
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  And that's okay, it's disappointing.
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  But that's not the point of doing the work.
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  Like, you don't do the work because there's a guaranteed outcome.
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  Right.
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  And I think that, I mean, at least in my experience, I would say there's very little that I've done that has been fully in vain.
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  It may not have culminated in whatever started me down that path, but I mean, I've said it in other things, every job I've ever had that the knowledge and experience I gained in that is brought to my current
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  job, you know, or my current role in some way.
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  I mean, even as weird as warehousing and then I end up helping CPD set up a warehouse and write an inventory control SOP and stuff that, you know, that was just random life experiences.
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  But though that knowledge helped me in another experience, you know.
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  So yeah, I think it's probably not likely that it, any of it is truly in vain, although it may take some time to have the fruits come to fruition.
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  So yeah, I mean that's, that's like mature perspective.
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  Right.
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  I'm thinking growth mindset for some reason, but I think the other thing was more growth mindset.
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  The when you said outcome oriented.
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  Right, right.
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  That's like non growth mindset.
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  Right, right.
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  I was going to say oh, in vain.
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  And appreciating.
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  Appreciating the value of past experiences kind of brings kinds of caused me to the something I wanted to talk about, which is a recent growth experience I had through meditation work.
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  So I'll say openly in case this makes it to air that I've talked to Ryan about this and I'm kind of reluctant to tell the story, but I think it is very much about recognizing the value of negative
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  experiences.
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  So I recently took an online course, the Power of Awareness with Jack Kornfeld and Tara Brock.
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  And that's a lot of work.
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  And I've been.
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  It's a lot of.
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  Not a lot of homework.
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  It's a lot of internal work.
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  Self work.
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  Yeah, it's a lot of self work.
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  And so in the last.
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  So we.
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  I just completed what they call the half day retreat which is a three hour session of alternating video talks and walking meditation and seated meditation.
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  And sometime between, you know, through that and maybe the previous couple of weeks of meditation, I, I had some insights which to me are very significant.
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  So one of the things that I've experienced for years is I have a difficult family relationship and, and I've been that that's someone who's very, very critical of me and makes me feel.
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  Well, most of us have someone like this, someone who you meet them like once a year, twice a year.
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  And every time you, you feel terrible, you know, or like you looking forward to that visit where you're going to meet that person, you're just like, oh my God.
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  So I've got one of those.
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  But what I realized was that, you know, over the past 20 years at least I've had several hours or maybe many hours of contact with them.
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  But over decades, that's nothing, right?
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  A few hours a year, basically essentially a few hours of conversation a year.
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  Maybe not even.
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  Because frankly he just doesn't interact with me that much.
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  It's like I'm visiting his house, he's not interacting with me.
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  But meanwhile, the rest of the, you know, the other 360 days a year, I'm having these extensive interactions with him I've had.
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  So, so basically the point is, you know, I've had hours and hours of interactions in my head, right?
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  And I think most people are familiar with this kind of thing.
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  That's not the news, Right.
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  But for me, I was thinking about meta practice, loving kindness practice, you know, not shutting someone out of your heart and this, this kind of thing and feeling positive towards a person.
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  And, and I realized that, you know, all this really very negative identification that I have, like, very basically I view this person as a real adversary, like a real threat to my happiness.
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  And I realized that 99% of what I attribute to him isn't from him, it's from me.
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  Yeah.
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  And so I had a couple of different thoughts.
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  So, number one is this image.
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  I realized one day that I really don't see him as a person.
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  I really see him as this kind of archetype of negativity.
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  And then I thought about, well, what, what is that what?
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  You know?
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  And I thought, well, it's really.
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  It's not what I think of him is not who he is as a person.
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  It's just a working model that I have of him.
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  Now, this is generically true, right?
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  And I mean my, my understanding of you across the table from me is not who you are.
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  It's only whatever information that I have about you.
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  But in this case, this is a really extreme example that I have this huge negative experience of interaction and most of that huge negative interaction never happened or is rather not attributable to him.
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  It's completely attributable to me.
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  And why is that?
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  It's a working model.
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  It's like, I don't know him.
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  I know my working model of him.
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  Now, one of the kind of catches is that working model is 99.9% accurate to my own experience.
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  So for this, for the three hours a year that I interact with him, he perfectly matches my working model of him.
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  So to that extent, it's completely fair.
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  It's not unreasonable.
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  It matches my experience.
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  Realizing, though, that that's just my experience of him.
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  That's not who he is.
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  It's just the way he.
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  It is, in fact, the way he behaves towards me.
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  That's not.
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  I'm not being unfair about that, but it's not him.
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  And the way he behaves towards me is influenced by the way I behave towards him.
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  Sure, it's not my fault, but there's an influence there.
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  So.
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  So that was my first big insight.
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  It's like, oh, well, this is not him.
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  Like, this is just a working model that happens to be accurate, but it's not him.
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  It's not who he is.
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  It's not him as a person.
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  And by knowing that that's not him as a person gives me the opportunity conceptually.
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  It's like, oh, well, I could know him as a person concept, theoretically, practically speaking, I don't know.
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  I don't know.
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  But it gave me kind of the emotional freedom to have that idea.
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  So that was interesting.
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  That was a very interesting insight for me.
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  And most especially just the knowledge that, hey, I've made that voice in my head.
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  Like, there's a very concrete, real reason that I did that, but it's a voice that I made in my head.
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  He didn't do this to me, and he's not doing it to me just because he's continuing to behave the way he's behaving.
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  It's something that I'm actually doing in my head.
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  And this is what mindfulness meditation teaches you.
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  It's like, what is your mind doing?
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  And I finally recognize, oh, this is what my mind is doing.
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  So that was a huge insight for me, what happened this weekend.
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  For some reason, I had this realization that if I am making him say this in my head, then I can make him say whatever I want to make him say in my head.
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  And so I changed the interaction, and I had him be very positive and nurturing to me, which is bizarre and actually kind of makes me choke up a bit because this is a big part of mindfulness training.
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  It's identifying what you need.
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  Like, your suffering is caused by your unmet need.
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  So what is your unmet need?
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  It's very.
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  It's a challenging thing to identify that, you know, that's a big part of the work, is finding out what your unmet need is and then going about the job of doing it for yourself, because you can't rely on
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  other people to behave the way you want them to behave or even the way you need them to behave.
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  They can disappoint you, and you have to be able to be happy without that or to be able to be happy in the context of that disappointment.
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  And so that was my second big insight was.
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  And the thing is, it's not a trivial thing.
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  And, you know, you can hear me say this and think, oh, I Should be able to do that and not be able to do.
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  Because these are things conceptually that are not new to me.
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  But to be able to have the experience of the insight as opposed to just the knowledge that this is a thing that someone said.
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  Mm.
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  It takes.
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  Takes the right conditions.
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  I was gonna say it takes a lot of work.
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  It doesn't necessarily take a lot of work.
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  If you have the right conditions, you're receptive.
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  Your mind is set up at this time.
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  Maybe what I just said clicked with you, and you're like, oh, my God.
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  You know, for me, I was not.
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  The conditions were not met within my personality until whatever happened for me to have these personal insights.
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  So the other thing that I realized is so Ryan and I talking about, you know, our difficulties with our kids, and I, you know, been having some significant challenges with one of my kids.
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  And.
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  And I realize it's kind of a corollary to this that, you know, questioning myself, why am I generating so much conflict here?
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  I mean, I'm not making it up.
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  There are real issues, but I'm dealing it with it in a way that is very.
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  There's a lot of conflict and distress.
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  And why is that?
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  And I think that in a simple way, I've been projecting and redirecting kind of these issues with her.
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  And in another way, because it's been getting worse over the past few weeks.
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  And my interpretation of that, which is actually consistent with a bunch of teachings, is that doing the work that I've been doing has been threatening that part of my personality.
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  And so it's been acting out.
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  And that's.
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  That's what I'm seeing in.
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  In this negativity is kind of, if you will.
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  Well, the way I said it earlier is my ID was threatened by my superego recognizing, you know, having these insights or coming approaching these insights, which would then have this impact of me kind of restructuring my id, you
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  know, changing the voice that real.
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  Recognizing that I actually am the source of my id, and I can change that which is threatening to my id.
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  And so I think that that was coming out in a lot of my interactions where, paradoxically, here I am focusing on meditation, you know, believing that I'm working towards, you know, being a better, kinder person and seeing myself
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  behave in ways that are really contrary to that.
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  And so, you know, we were saying earlier that there's hypocrisy to this and.
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  Which could look really bad from.
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  From another perspective.
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  Like, you know, oh, yeah, here's some guy who's, like, really into meditation.
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  Like, look how badly he's behaving with his family.
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  That it's part of the path, that you can generate a bunch of negativity.
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  The difference is that you understand that negativity and that it's temporary and not self justified.
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  And that's, that's the difference.
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  Because the path, without the practice, I would absolutely be caught up in the anger being self justified.
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  Well, I'm perfectly, I am absolutely right.
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  You know, I'm still intellectually able to say, oh yeah, I'm, I'm right about X, Y and Z, but I know that that's.
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  It's bad behavior.
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  That's all.
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  It doesn't matter if I'm right.
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  There's bad behavior, that's bad behavior.
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  So yeah, I, that's what I wanted to share.
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  I don't know, does that, does that resonate?
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  It does.
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  I mean, obviously we had talked about it after and I'm glad you shared.
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  I think that.
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  So you had mentioned before.
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  So in our management experience, we had somebody facilitate the crucial conversations book.
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  One of the things that resonated most with me during that session or those sessions, whatever it was, was the comments about the stories we tell ourselves.
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  And then I went back and tried reading that book.
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  And I don't think it's actually in that book, but I don't know where it came from.
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  It wasn't some sort of text.
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  Tell your stories is.
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  Tell your stories is one of the main steps.
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  It is, of course.
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  Okay, it is.
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  That's why I thought.
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  And I knew that.
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  But when I went back and tried skimming through the book, I couldn't find it because that was one of the biggest things to me.
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  So at the time, this was obviously many years ago now, God, probably like 10 years ago now, but I was commuting, you know, it was a rough time as far as that's concerned.
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  And I definitely was not managing my frustration anger as well.
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  And speaking specifically about my time with the commuting, I really recognize when.
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  And it's sometimes it's so funny how such a simple thing can be said to somebody in the right moment and just be like, oh yeah, totally do that.
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  Totally demonizing this person as a person because what God knows what they're doing and heaven forbid it's some emergency, you know, I would feel obviously very badly about the pretty terrible things I've thought about people, you know, and
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  so that has been something that has stuck with me quite a bit and actually has resonated in some of the other teachings and things I've read that have said similar things and really alluded to ultimately.
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  And this is, this is where I think it has the potential for internal destruction is basically you're telling people that it's their fault.
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  Like you feel this way because of you.
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  And you can either manage that in a constructive way as you did.
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  And I feel like I did at least as far as recognizing that now I have the power to make an impact on that.
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  And I think that's the positive spin on is like you may have been creating.
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  There could be some righteousness in it, but the behavior in and of itself and the negative connotation feelings around it, you likely had some significant impact in nurturing and fostering that feeling.
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  To your point, you know, like you experience.
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  I have people at work and I know, you know, these people that like I cringe every single time they got to come to a meeting or whatever it is.
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  And I think of all the horrendous things that are going to happen at this meeting and frankly, 90% of the time it's probably not even that bad.
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  But we've had some really bad interactions that now that is what my gut instinct when that person is around is.
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  I feel threatened and I'm.
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  I have a hard time thinking clearly because I'm on the defensive and I'm trying to anticipate the next attack or threat and offset that.
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  And so I guess that's the fear.
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  And we've talked previously about negative emotions being based and driven from fear.
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  And so knowing that I have some power over that gives me the ability to change the narrative, tell myself a story that isn't that.
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  So that was a big thing as far as I'm concerned is, is the narratives.
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  We tell it ourselves and the impact that has on our experience and happiness.
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  And it sounds like that was kind of similar to what you were.
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  The revelations kind of that you had experienced.
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  Again, this isn't new knowledge necessarily to you, but to.
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  To have the actual experience of it.
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  I guess that's as far as I can go because I don't remember if there was anything else I was going to talk about.
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  But so, you know, the, the challenge now is to continue the practice in a way that I don't forget this because, you know, for, for anyone who's interested in meditation or mindfulness, you know, it's not typical that you
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  get to a point and you have a breakthrough and something's fixed and then it's not a problem after that, things are occurring.
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  Which is honestly, I guess really goes to the story about Mara.
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  Right.
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  Negative mind states will continue to arise, and even the same ones that you've defused.
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  And so the challenge is to remember what you already learned and to reapply it again and again and again.
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  Now you have a tool in your toolbox, but you have to pull that tool out and actually use it.
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  You can't just say, oh, it's in my toolbox now it's fixed.
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  And so, you know, right now, being so close to the experience, I feel pretty good about it.
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  But being as experienced as I am, I'm also ready to recognize it's.
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  I'm very likely to forget it at some point.
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  I'm very likely to find myself back in this really troubled state and have to remember.
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  But my goal right now is, as I said, try to practice in a way that I remember for as long as possible and that.
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  That I don't forget for as long as possible, and that if I do forget, that I remember as quickly as possible.
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  And the reason I'm saying this is because I think a lot of people do try meditation or other kinds of internal work and get frustrated, and they oh, that didn't really work.
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  Like, it seemed to work, but it didn't really work.
• 26:25
  It's like, no, it is working if, you know, if you recognize that you're developing a tool and then you know how to use that tool when you need it.
• 26:34
  And I think, you know, for me, I tend to think of meditation tools as like, you know, counting your breath a certain way or that kind of thing.
• 26:42
  And now I'm realizing, oh, this is the real tool.
• 26:45
  Like, you use those tools, the basic tools, until you have the experience and the experience becomes a new tool, a more a stronger tool, free to use.
• 26:55
  Oh, there was something else I wanted to say meditation, but slipped my mind.
• 26:58
  Oh, well, I'm still working on my mindfulness, too.
• 27:04
  The.
• 27:06
  Well, I guess 1.
• 27:08
  To extend the tool metaphor.
• 27:10
  Go ahead.
• 27:11
  No, go ahead.
• 27:11
  No, you go.
• 27:12
  Before you forget the.
• 27:14
  So when you were talking about the stories that we tell ourselves and how we maybe make things worse or, you know, create negative circumstances where there aren't any.
• 27:24
  It's based in reality.
• 27:25
  Right.
• 27:25
  I mean, that's the.
• 27:26
  That's the hard part is that a lot of people, it's very difficult.
• 27:30
  I mean, included.
• 27:31
  It's very difficult to not say, but he really did this because.
• 27:35
  Although most of it they didn't do, some of it they did do.
• 27:39
  Right.
• 27:39
  And that part's real, and that's not your fault.
• 27:41
  So just to say that, because, you know, Another aspect of.
• 27:46
  Of this is hearing these stories and then thinking that things are your fault because you should be able to know better.
• 27:53
  But as we've said about negative emotions before, it's hardwired.
• 27:56
  It's.
• 27:57
  It's.
• 27:57
  You're neurologically inclined biologically to do these things with your head.
• 28:03
  Well, and it doesn't.
• 28:05
  I don't think we should.
• 28:07
  We should be cautious to label.
• 28:10
  And another term for label could be judge.
• 28:13
  The point is not that you were right or wrong or they were right or wrong.
• 28:18
  That's not the point.
• 28:20
  Right.
• 28:20
  The point is your experience of the event is negative because you allow it to be and because of sort of how you.
• 28:29
  How your brain is wired to run in that direction.
• 28:32
  And, you know, I.
• 28:34
  Some of that goes to.
• 28:35
  To forgiveness, to me, and the importance of forgiveness and, and, you know, certainly in the Christian faith, but other areas as well, that the forgiveness is not a judgment that that person was right and you were wrong or
• 28:50
  that it's okay.
• 28:52
  It's also not for that other person.
• 28:55
  The forgiveness is to allow yourself to move on.
• 28:57
  I.
• 28:58
  I want to, because I know that you had something that I.
• 29:00
  That I interrupted that's going to hold that thought.
• 29:03
  But I do want to pursue this a little bit because I think that we have a strong cultural disadvantage because we put a lot of cultural value.
• 29:13
  You know, unless this podcast is going international, for those in the States where we are, there's a huge cultural bias towards being right and not being wrong and not letting someone else be right and make you wrong.
• 29:27
  It reminds me of this.
• 29:29
  There's a story I have heard.
• 29:32
  I don't know if it's true that in Japan, there's not an idiom for who did this.
• 29:38
  Like, it's not their kind of orientation of the language.
• 29:41
  If you see something spilled, you know, oh, I think it's like, if there's an accident, you don't say, john spilled the tea, you say the tea spilled.
• 29:49
  And that there's this disconnect from blame, which we absolutely do not have in our, you know, although I guess that goes back around to the whole accountability issue, because we hate it when people say, like, if someone spilled
• 30:02
  the tea and then.
• 30:03
  And didn't clean it up, they say, oh, the tea spilled.
• 30:06
  It's like, no, you spilled the tea.
• 30:08
  Clean it up.
• 30:10
  You know, I mean, that is the culture.
• 30:12
  I mean, I feel that way because that's my culture.
• 30:14
  Yeah.
• 30:15
  So, yes.
• 30:16
  So forgiveness, not easy one.
• 30:18
  That's one thing.
• 30:19
  But the thing is, we have a strong bias towards blame.
• 30:23
  And either blaming ourselves or blaming someone else, but placing the blame is like a very strong cultural value for us.
• 30:31
  So recognize that that's very difficult to overcome.
• 30:34
  The other thing regarding forgiveness is an aphorism that you are not attributed to the Buddha.
• 30:40
  You are not punished for your anger, you're punished by your anger.
• 30:44
  So, yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
• 30:46
  Yeah.
• 30:46
  I mean, I guess that's really where I've been trying to focus with my daughter.
• 30:52
  Just because she's quite young still, she's significantly younger than yours, but trying to help her to understand the power she has.
• 31:01
  And that's really the intent is for empowerment and that she doesn't have to feel all of these things.
• 31:10
  So in intense, like fiery anger and frustration.
• 31:18
  And that's all I want for her to be happy.
• 31:21
  And I can see how she could be there.
• 31:23
  And I guess when it comes to being tied to the outcomes and the fear is I will behave negatively or certainly not helping anything because I want so badly for her to see the power that she.
• 31:40
  She has and to become that happy person that I know she can.
• 31:43
  It's not that she's unhappy, but she's unhappy in pretty much any responsibility she has to do.
• 31:50
  And I know that that's gonna be a thing.
• 31:53
  And I know that there's people who never kind of get there, and I've seen them in their adult life and I do not want to see my daughter go there.
• 32:03
  And I don't want to be the one that's like, hands off, good luck.
• 32:07
  So.
• 32:07
  So yeah, this is something I was talking about earlier this morning too, is that's our fear, is that what we're seeing is what it's going to be.
• 32:15
  Right.
• 32:15
  Like, this is the person my child is going to become.
• 32:19
  And so part of what we have to learn as parents is that it's not right.
• 32:25
  That's the person they are right now.
• 32:26
  It's the person they're experiencing right now.
• 32:28
  It doesn't mean that in four years, that's, you know, and so for me, not having, not saying, oh, well, what's it going to be like in five years, you know, and being realistic about it is debilitating.
• 32:41
  You know, being concerned, being completely caught up in the idea, like, oh my God, this is the way my kid's gonna grow up.
• 32:50
  This is the adult my kid's gonna be is very limiting and fear inducing and anger inducing.
• 32:57
  And that's what you know, because as parents, that's our fear is like, I don't want my kid to experience the world this way, and they seem to be on that track.
• 33:07
  But we do have to have faith that, hey, they're going to change a lot in four years or six months, you know, so to kind of get that perspective and unclench is an important lesson, but very difficult.
• 33:20
  Like, so difficult to do well.
• 33:23
  And, you know, I talked last time about how August was such a phenomenal month for me personally in my relationships, including my relationship with my daughter, where I made a conscious decision to change the way I interacted with
• 33:41
  her, which, for lack of a better term, required me to be the bigger person, which I am.
• 33:45
  I'm 42, and my child is 8.
• 33:50
  Of.
• 33:50
  My wife points out a lot, like.
• 33:52
  You'Re the adult in this.
• 33:54
  Like, she's only eight.
• 33:55
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:58
  So I had to be the one to.
• 34:00
  To initiate that change.
• 34:02
  And then I also had to call it out and.
• 34:05
  And after, you know, a few days or a week, I'm like, listen, I am working really hard right now.
• 34:10
  This is very frustrating for me right now, and I'm working really hard to stay calm, and I need your help, basically, like, let's work together.
• 34:17
  And after a couple of those conversations, she did seem we.
• 34:20
  The way we interacted together was so much more pleasant, and she was so much more responsive, which to me kind of indicates that she's also really in this fight or flight state a lot.
• 34:32
  And certainly I'm not helping that, you know, and probably causing it, let's be honest.
• 34:39
  So that precludes her from being able to have these rational thoughts that I'm trying to have while I have this really loud voice threatening her with action.
• 34:50
  Oh, yeah.
• 34:51
  Can't imagine why she doesn't get it, you know, so.
• 34:54
  And unfortunately, for whatever reason, some events changed, you know, this past month, which has been less effective in that.
• 35:02
  Part of it, she went back to school.
• 35:04
  Part of it, she went back to school.
• 35:05
  So now it's more pressure and stress on family.
• 35:08
  So we're all tired and we have a lot going on.
• 35:10
  And so I'm finding it more difficult to take that breath and be mindful in the moment and really try and take that more constructive approach.
• 35:20
  And it's addictive in some respect.
• 35:23
  Like, once you let it go, the cat's kind of out of the bag, and then you just keep kind of just like exploding, and it's not helpful.
• 35:31
  But the point is, I guess that, yeah, I had kind of an aha moment as well, and I was really like, yes, we're.
• 35:39
  We're good now.
• 35:40
  We're gonna Keep going, you know, a few weeks later and it's back to kind of normal.
• 35:45
  But I had the experience.
• 35:46
  We both had the experience.
• 35:48
  So now it's a referenceable point that when we're having that issue and my wife's like, you guys gotta rein this in, that we both can kind of come together and have that pool shared meaning and be like, this
• 36:00
  is the relationship we want to have.
• 36:02
  I don't behave necessarily in the best way.
• 36:05
  And this is the reason why.
• 36:07
  This is what I'm afraid of.
• 36:09
  This is what concerns me.
• 36:10
  This is what I want for you, is for you to be the successful, happy person that I know you can be.
• 36:19
  So.
• 36:19
  Yeah, so, so I I in with my daughter, I feel like I need to circle back with my insight and try again to create the pool of shared meaning because that's something that I've been unable to do.
• 36:33
  Like, I try.
• 36:34
  This was part of the struggle over the past couple of months.
• 36:37
  So a few months ago, I don't know if I think I told you, like, things were going pretty well.
• 36:42
  And then more recently, things started getting really bad.
• 36:46
  And although I've been trying kind of have a sit down and like, let's talk about like, what this misunderstanding is, because you're getting very angry because you do not understand what I'm saying.
• 36:59
  You know, it really is misunderstanding and having the frustration of being unable to have that conversation.
• 37:07
  Like, she will not allow me to have that conversation.
• 37:11
  Now I know that I was not helping her to help me.
• 37:15
  Like, right.
• 37:16
  I was not bringing the right thing to the, to the conversation so that she could me explain.
• 37:24
  So hopefully, you know, now I'm in a better space or now I can go into it with a little more awareness of what I'm bringing to it and, and makes have some progress.
• 37:36
  Yeah.
• 37:37
  You know, but yeah, so, you know, something you were saying was making me think about kind of our culpability in this, that, that we're responsible, but it's not our fault, you know, and this is, I mean, this is
• 37:52
  a difficult concept.
• 37:54
  The one that I'd like to, I'd like to introduce to our listeners if they haven't heard about it.
• 37:58
  I think this is because in our, in our experience, and we are presumably more experienced than, you know, well, we've said before our target, we want, we want to try to talk to younger people who are struggling, you
• 38:11
  know, this idea of responsibility versus blame.
• 38:14
  Right, right.
• 38:14
  And it's something that in our management responsibilities, we struggled with people who don't understand that you.
• 38:23
  Your responsibility you have to take responsibility for it.
• 38:26
  It doesn't mean it's your fault.
• 38:27
  Right.
• 38:28
  There are all these factors that interact with which as managers, we're trying to understand what the factors are, what the factors are entering into what happened under your responsibility and for which you must take responsibility.
• 38:40
  But we're not going to blame you.
• 38:42
  We're going to try to understand all the factors that entered into this.
• 38:45
  Sorry, I'm getting a little abstract.
• 38:47
  Even if you don't have kids, you're going to have these kinds of interactions with people who are doing the wrong thing or making you angry, whatever.
• 38:56
  And you may be in the positions that we're talking about where you're misbehaving in response to someone's poor behavior.
• 39:05
  It's not your fault.
• 39:06
  You can learn responsibility for it and you can find the tools to correct it.
• 39:11
  And, oh, the other thing I was.
• 39:13
  We were talking about forgiveness and kind of the purpose of forgiveness, and it's not for the other person.
• 39:19
  And this whole, this whole discussion of how to behave and what to do, it's not about being right.
• 39:25
  It's about being happy.
• 39:26
  In fact, that's one of my wife's phrases is, would you rather be right or be happy?
• 39:31
  Kind of.
• 39:31
  The point of the podcast is exploring how to be happy.
• 39:37
  And a lot of times that means setting aside being right, which is hard because of this cultural bias.
• 39:43
  It doesn't mean you have to be wrong.
• 39:46
  It doesn't mean you have to say that you're wrong and the other person's right.
• 39:49
  Disassociate from that, that aside and learn what it is to be happy.
• 39:55
  You know, learn what's preventing your happiness.
• 39:58
  And it's often not being right or being wrong that's preventing your happiness.
• 40:02
  It's getting this perspective and learning these tools and seeking out these experiences that become new tools for you to say, ah, I understand now.
• 40:13
  Yeah.
• 40:13
  And then.
• 40:13
  And then practicing.
• 40:20
  Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.
• 40:23
  Join us next time as we continue the discussion.
• 40:26
  Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube and visit www.ethstudio.com for more information and.