Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The Nose Job Murder- 6 Shots To The Face in Self-Defense?

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The Nose Job Murder- 6 Shots To The Face in Self-Defense? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:01
Speaker 1: Body doors, but Joseph's gotten more. You want to hear
0:06
Speaker 1: a horrible term. I've always hated this term when it
0:11
Speaker 1: comes to medicine. I don't know, it's always made my
0:14
Speaker 1: skin crawl. It's actually the word rhino plasty. Rhino of course,
0:22
Speaker 1: referring to a rhinoceros and the idea that they've got
0:28
Speaker 1: the big horn, you know, sticking out of their nose.
0:35
Speaker 1: Plasty goes to a surgical intervention. Perhaps that is going
0:41
Speaker 1: to alter one's appearance. Rhinoplasty. We might otherwise know it
0:47
Speaker 1: as a nose job, and there are many people who
0:53
Speaker 1: have had those jobs because of serious cosmetic issues, and
0:58
Speaker 1: they look so much better. And at the end of
1:02
Speaker 1: the day, you know, it all depends on your own
1:06
Speaker 1: personal perception of yourself. Maybe it needs to have a
1:10
Speaker 1: medical intervention that requires rhinoplasty. And then there's others. I
1:15
Speaker 1: think that we can go back in time and look
1:17
Speaker 1: that have had rhinoplasty and probably ill advised. But today's case,
1:26
Speaker 1: today's case is a case that involves an individual who,
1:33
Speaker 1: according to her, administered a notes shop. Only this was
1:40
Speaker 1: not a surgical intervention. This was murder in the instrument.
1:47
Speaker 1: It was a three eighty caliber pistol. I'm Joseph Scott
1:52
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body Facts. Brother Dave, I got
1:58
Speaker 1: a time. I'm going to tell you something about myself
2:00
Speaker 1: today that I have never told you. I know, right,
2:04
Speaker 1: hold on, friends, in case you don't know it. Dave
2:11
Speaker 1: and I are actually we we we do our our
2:17
Speaker 1: our tapings actually looking at one another. We can see
2:22
Speaker 1: one another. You know, scary, We're having a conversation. It
2:26
Speaker 1: is scary.
2:27
Speaker 2: It is scary.
2:28
Speaker 1: We see ourselves in all all sorts of dishevelment. And
2:32
Speaker 1: other days will come in and say, hey, would you
2:34
Speaker 1: do text shower day? But Dave, and you know, I've
2:40
Speaker 1: I've broken my nose four times in my life, really
2:43
Speaker 1: actually and I no no, but and I think but
2:53
Speaker 1: the first time I fell at a skating rink in
2:56
Speaker 1: my face was used to catch myself. First time I'd
3:01
Speaker 1: been on skates. I think I was probably eight. Wow, terrifying.
3:06
Speaker 1: The other one actually had a dear friend of mine.
3:12
Speaker 1: I was at a church, the church we attended when
3:15
Speaker 1: I was a kid. I was coming out of what
3:17
Speaker 1: we call the game room. This church is really old,
3:20
Speaker 1: so every door in the church was solid oak. And
3:28
Speaker 1: she had come running down the hallway as I was
3:31
Speaker 1: walking out of the door, grabbed a solid oak door
3:33
Speaker 1: and slammed it on my face. I never saw it coming. Wow,
3:36
Speaker 1: And that broke my nose. And then I broke my
3:39
Speaker 1: nose in football, I actually had a face mask that
3:42
Speaker 1: gave way and caved in on me. Took a shot
3:45
Speaker 1: in to the face and then the other one I
3:47
Speaker 1: think might have been a broken nose. I'm I'm not
3:51
Speaker 1: going to go into but suffice it to say I
3:54
Speaker 1: have now rather a robust probosca as Jimmy Dan. But yeah,
4:02
Speaker 1: Jimmy Durany, you know, got a big ridge in my nose.
4:07
Speaker 1: You know, uh it My nose generally arrives at a
4:11
Speaker 1: location a couple of seconds ahead of the rest of me,
4:14
Speaker 1: So I'll put it that way. If it were raining outside,
4:18
Speaker 1: people could take shelter.
4:19
Speaker 3: It was just stay dry, so you never know.
4:22
Speaker 2: Large.
4:24
Speaker 1: Well, it is rather robust, but that's okay. There are
4:28
Speaker 1: many people that that do go under the knife, if
4:32
Speaker 1: you will. For Ronald Placid, one of the things that's
4:34
Speaker 1: always kind of put me off about the process is
4:39
Speaker 1: that hammers and chisels are used many times. Now there's
4:46
Speaker 1: surgical hammers and chisels, you know, to knock off edges
4:49
Speaker 1: and whatnother. There's something kind of ghastly about it. You know,
4:53
Speaker 1: we do ghastly things in the borg obviously, but you know,
4:56
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about, you know, the breaking. You know,
4:58
Speaker 1: in order, you know what the old adage, Uh, you
5:02
Speaker 1: got to break some eggs to make an eye, you
5:04
Speaker 1: got to break the nose. And uh that's why that's
5:08
Speaker 1: why you see this, uh, the bilateral raccoon eyes with
5:12
Speaker 1: people that have undergone rhino plastic. Because you're fracturing, You're
5:16
Speaker 1: fracturing the skull. Wow.
5:18
Speaker 3: Let me, Is it true that your nose once you
5:21
Speaker 3: have a nose job, that your nose doesn't keep growing?
5:26
Speaker 3: I know, when we get older, our nose in our
5:28
Speaker 3: ears continue to grow correct as they as we see issues.
5:33
Speaker 1: You know, the soft tissue does. And you have a
5:35
Speaker 1: nose underlying skeletal structure.
5:38
Speaker 3: Okay, but when you have a nose job, does that
5:41
Speaker 3: prevent your nose from getting longer as you age?
5:44
Speaker 1: Uh? I'm going to tell you right now, I'm going
5:49
Speaker 1: to say it plainly. I have no idea. I don't
5:53
Speaker 1: I don't have an answer to that question it, but
5:56
Speaker 1: I can tell you this, I would think that that
6:00
Speaker 1: it would disrupt it to a certain degree. Here here's
6:05
Speaker 1: a kind of a little bony fact, if you will.
6:08
Speaker 1: Did you know that in your throughout your skeleton, you
6:16
Speaker 1: have what refer to medical types refer to it and
6:19
Speaker 1: anatomus refer to it as foramen. Foramen are these tiny
6:25
Speaker 1: little holes that are in bone. Okay, as a matter
6:30
Speaker 1: of fact, the largest foramen that we have is what's
6:34
Speaker 1: referred to as the foramen magnum, and it is at
6:37
Speaker 1: the base of the skull. It's the biggest bony hole
6:41
Speaker 1: in your body, and it's where your spinal cord emerges
6:47
Speaker 1: comes out of that hole, you know, from beneath the brain,
6:50
Speaker 1: and you've got tiny little framen that surround it, and
6:54
Speaker 1: that's where blood vessels pass through day. So if you've
6:56
Speaker 1: got like a foramen in your you know your facial structure,
7:01
Speaker 1: that is a blood supply to the soft tissues around
7:06
Speaker 1: and to the bone. Two, if you get it altered surgically,
7:10
Speaker 1: I really wonder how surgeons go in and account for
7:13
Speaker 1: that because those vessels have to go somewhere else, or
7:16
Speaker 1: does it diminish the supply of blood? And I know
7:19
Speaker 1: that there's people out there. There are surgeons and work
7:22
Speaker 1: with surgeons, and they could probably have the answer to that.
7:24
Speaker 1: But it is interesting, to say the very least, and
7:28
Speaker 1: you have to account for that. And you know, people
7:30
Speaker 1: that want to approve improve their appearance, you know, they
7:36
Speaker 1: pursue these types of things, and that's kind of at
7:41
Speaker 1: the heart at the center, I think at least a
7:44
Speaker 1: comment that's associated with this case.
7:47
Speaker 3: It is referred to as the nose job murder.
7:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is. And look, I'll look all in all,
7:57
Speaker 1: all aside, I've covered this case. I've covered it in
8:00
Speaker 1: the news. I've covered it with at Nancy. I think
8:03
Speaker 1: I covered it probably on Long Crime Net one when
8:07
Speaker 1: they were still doing the daily court coverage, and you know,
8:11
Speaker 1: I would be one of the it's almost like being
8:13
Speaker 1: a color commentator. It's kind of a strange thing. I'm
8:17
Speaker 1: almost sure that we're you know, we're talking about the
8:20
Speaker 1: the shu Shannon Shana Hubers Shana Huber's case. And you
8:27
Speaker 1: had questions for me about this case, and I was
8:31
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, well I'll revisit this with you
8:33
Speaker 1: because you've got questions. I want to try to answer
8:35
Speaker 1: them as best I can.
8:37
Speaker 2: You know, Joe.
8:37
Speaker 3: It is called the uh the nose I've murdered because
8:41
Speaker 3: Shanna Hubers claims she shot her boyfriend in self defense
8:46
Speaker 3: and during her interview with police, she said that he
8:52
Speaker 3: was very vain and that she had a friend who
8:55
Speaker 3: was a dentist and he uh the Bryan Posting, the
8:59
Speaker 3: victim here, that Ryan wanted to get veneers for his teeth,
9:03
Speaker 3: and he also wanted to get a nose job. And
9:08
Speaker 3: in this interview with police, after Ryan Posting has been
9:12
Speaker 3: shot six times in the face, Shana Hubers says, I
9:17
Speaker 3: gave him the nose job he always wanted. That's why
9:23
Speaker 3: this case has been called the nose job murder, because
9:26
Speaker 3: who would say that about somebody they claimed to love?
9:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, and it's uh, it's uh. I
9:36
Speaker 1: use the term chilling a lot. It goes beyond chilling.
9:40
Speaker 1: It's uh. This is this has got a level of
9:44
Speaker 1: disgusting to it. Yeah, And I think that it's important
9:48
Speaker 1: that we remember the victim, Ron Posting here and what
9:52
Speaker 1: he did for a living. I mean, he he was
9:55
Speaker 1: an attorney. Okay. Most people think of attorneys in the
10:00
Speaker 1: sense where you're in trial and you're in this bit
10:02
Speaker 1: courtroom and you're presenting to the jury, and that's very typical.
10:06
Speaker 1: You know, you can practice law in any number, any
10:09
Speaker 1: number of ways, contract law. You'll never walk inside of
10:12
Speaker 1: a courtroom, you know, to try a case. That's you know,
10:16
Speaker 1: that's not what they do. But for him, I think Dave,
10:20
Speaker 1: first off, he's he's a good looking cat. I can
10:22
Speaker 1: say that, you know, to begin with handsome had a
10:26
Speaker 1: lot of friends that really loved him and thought he
10:29
Speaker 1: was a really cool dude. He had gone to I
10:32
Speaker 1: think he went to the University of Indiana or Indiana
10:35
Speaker 1: University undergraduate, was a triple major there with an eye
10:42
Speaker 1: toward going to law school, and I think that he
10:44
Speaker 1: wound up going to the University of Northern Kentucky for
10:47
Speaker 1: his law degree.
10:48
Speaker 3: I'm just trying to think a triple major, do you
10:51
Speaker 3: have brain power that requires.
10:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, you got to stay on you got to stay
10:55
Speaker 1: on top of it and became me. Yeah, it's like
10:59
Speaker 1: a normal degree is like I think at jack State
11:04
Speaker 1: it's one hundred you know, average it's going to vary,
11:07
Speaker 1: but it's like one hundred and twenty hours all right,
11:12
Speaker 1: roughly one hundred and twenty twenty four hours. That's for
11:16
Speaker 1: an undergraduate degree. Well, you still have to do all
11:20
Speaker 1: of the major requisites for if you're majoring in political science,
11:25
Speaker 1: which I think he was geography, which I think he was,
11:29
Speaker 1: and I can't remember what the other one was, but
11:31
Speaker 1: there were like three. Might he might walk out of
11:35
Speaker 1: the door with one hundred and sixty five undergraduate hours
11:41
Speaker 1: and you say, well, what would be the point where
11:43
Speaker 1: he's trying to be well rounded? I think, you know,
11:46
Speaker 1: before he sets himself up to go to law school,
11:48
Speaker 1: be able to write effectively and do all those things.
11:50
Speaker 1: And he was apparently quite a success, dave.
11:53
Speaker 2: He was.
11:54
Speaker 3: He was an add of Cincinnati where he practiced, and
11:57
Speaker 3: you know you mentioned a minute ago about his friends
11:59
Speaker 3: really caring about him. Ryan Postin was a well thought
12:01
Speaker 3: of individual at twenty nine years old, a very accomplished
12:04
Speaker 3: young man, and he kind of had his uh, had
12:10
Speaker 3: his pick of the women he would see.
12:12
Speaker 2: You know.
12:13
Speaker 3: He was, I mean, obviously smart, obviously attractive, and you know,
12:20
Speaker 3: a good guy. Here's the problem. He and Shanna Huber's
12:22
Speaker 3: data for eighteen months, and it was content. It was
12:24
Speaker 3: an on again, off again relationship. I've poured over some
12:27
Speaker 3: text messages between the two of them and It's interesting
12:31
Speaker 3: if you realize that. First of all, Shana was twenty
12:34
Speaker 3: one years old and she was in college at the time.
12:36
Speaker 3: No slotch intellectually, but you know, you have people that
12:41
Speaker 3: are street smart and yet they lack in other areas
12:44
Speaker 3: of maturity or you know, street smarts and things like that,
12:48
Speaker 3: and she was lacking in social graces and being able
12:52
Speaker 3: to be somebody that people would really like. She had
12:57
Speaker 3: a lot of edges on her again, very smart and
13:01
Speaker 3: very attractive, but there were parts of her that were
13:06
Speaker 3: really unappealing to people who got to know her. And
13:09
Speaker 3: in this case with Ryan, they dated today eighteen months.
13:12
Speaker 3: They met online, as many people do these days. Ryan
13:16
Speaker 3: actually saw a Facebook picture that she posted of a
13:19
Speaker 3: spring break trip she had. He liked the photo that
13:22
Speaker 3: led to communication online. They met, they went out, and
13:29
Speaker 3: it was a hot, hot relationship at times. There was
13:33
Speaker 3: a lot of intensity there. And here's the part about
13:38
Speaker 3: Ryan that I think his friends were I'm glad they
13:44
Speaker 3: shared it with us. He didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings.
13:47
Speaker 3: He really was that guy. He didn't want You know,
13:50
Speaker 3: some people just they don't care about others feelings. They
13:53
Speaker 3: don't and they just go through life like that Ryan did.
13:55
Speaker 3: He cared so much about other people's feelings, in particular
13:59
Speaker 3: with Shana. He wanted to break up with her, He
14:02
Speaker 3: needed to break up with her, but he didn't want
14:06
Speaker 3: to hurt her feelings, so he would do it in
14:08
Speaker 3: soft ways, not very direct and not final, and always
14:12
Speaker 3: left this door open and she would come back. She
14:15
Speaker 3: was relentless.
14:17
Speaker 1: And yeah, the number of text messages, I think is
14:21
Speaker 1: something that really and this is we have to go back.
14:23
Speaker 1: This is this case originated in twenty twelve, I think
14:27
Speaker 1: it was. And I look back in time, interestingly enough,
14:35
Speaker 1: I got to say, guess what else was in the
14:37
Speaker 1: news at this particular time that kind of parallels this
14:42
Speaker 1: case and something to Shannon Huber is actually referenced, and
14:46
Speaker 1: that's that's Jodi Arius trial. This was actually the trial
14:50
Speaker 1: itself was going on during this period of time. I know,
14:53
Speaker 1: because you know, i'd been I was at h l
14:59
Speaker 1: N at the time, you know, covering the scene with
15:01
Speaker 1: Vinnie and the guys, and we covered it for a
15:04
Speaker 1: long long time. And it's striking parallels, you know, in
15:09
Speaker 1: this case and with Jody Arius. I don't know, can
15:14
Speaker 1: you say unrequited love or you know, wanting to distance
15:18
Speaker 1: yourself from someone. You've got this highly charged, highly charged
15:25
Speaker 1: relationship that's you know, you've got these these people that
15:29
Speaker 1: are deeply intimately involved. I was I was listening to
15:36
Speaker 1: an interview regarding this case, and a lady that was speaking,
15:42
Speaker 1: I believe she was one of the foreign prosecutors, had
15:44
Speaker 1: said that this victim, Ryan would come home Dave and
15:51
Speaker 1: somehow Shana would get into his apartment and he would
15:56
Speaker 1: walk through the door and she would be lying on
15:58
Speaker 1: the sofa nude, smiling at him when he walked in. Now, look,
16:03
Speaker 1: I'm a red blooded most I'm not saying that I
16:07
Speaker 1: have an aversion to that when it comes to my wife. However,
16:11
Speaker 1: I have to say, you've got someone that has come
16:16
Speaker 1: into your space and feels that very comfortable in an
16:20
Speaker 1: intimate setting, that very bold like that, and you know
16:26
Speaker 1: that they don't necessarily want you any longer, and you're
16:30
Speaker 1: going to literally bear yourself to them. You're really in
16:35
Speaker 1: a very very difficult area. It's an emotionally charged situation
16:39
Speaker 1: and it can only get worse. Day.
16:41
Speaker 3: During the time of their relationship, Ryan would text Shana,
16:51
Speaker 3: it's over. As you think about how bold it would
16:54
Speaker 3: take for somebody to be to sneak into the house,
16:56
Speaker 3: break into the house, and be laying there on the
16:57
Speaker 3: couch nude when the man comes home. Shana was aggressive
17:02
Speaker 3: and relentless when it came to Ryan posting. She was
17:05
Speaker 3: there constantly, even when he said stop, please stop. But Joe,
17:10
Speaker 3: one thing I did notice, let me share. February twenty twelve,
17:13
Speaker 3: he sends her a text. You can tell people you
17:16
Speaker 3: broke up with me. He's negotiating here. You know she
17:20
Speaker 3: won't stop. She won't leave them alone. Look, tell people
17:22
Speaker 3: you broke up with me. Now, I'm good with that.
17:26
Speaker 3: March of twenty twelve. The next month, Ryan to Shana,
17:30
Speaker 3: stop texting me. April, I no longer have the patience
17:39
Speaker 3: to deal with you. So three months in a row
17:43
Speaker 3: he is sending very specific things to Shana, but she
17:48
Speaker 3: won't give up.
17:49
Speaker 2: Relentless.
17:50
Speaker 3: Investigators found hundreds of thousands of text messages between Ryan
17:54
Speaker 3: and Shana, and again, remember their relationship only lasted a
17:57
Speaker 3: period of eighteen months. Forever one message that Ryan sent
18:02
Speaker 3: to Shana, Shana probably sent fifty to him.
18:07
Speaker 2: Wow, what a ratio.
18:08
Speaker 3: She could not stop herself, and when it came right
18:13
Speaker 3: down to it. Ryan had been chased out of his
18:16
Speaker 3: own house and it ended up at his stepfather's house
18:19
Speaker 3: in the middle of the night because she wouldn't leave
18:21
Speaker 3: his place. She would not leave. He had to leave
18:25
Speaker 3: his own condo because she wouldn't leave. You want to
18:28
Speaker 3: get physical with her now? She claimed he was Joe.
18:32
Speaker 3: She claimed he was physically abusive to her. As a
18:35
Speaker 3: matter of fact, she showed bruises on her arms to
18:39
Speaker 3: a next door neighbor, claiming that Ryan did that. She
18:44
Speaker 3: confesslated on this she bruised herself. Now, I'm no lawyer.
18:50
Speaker 3: You're no lawyer, but we hang out with a lot
18:52
Speaker 3: of lawyers.
18:54
Speaker 2: Yes, we do.
18:55
Speaker 3: What does that seem like to you, Joe? That she
18:57
Speaker 3: was playing She was playing a long game to get
18:59
Speaker 3: him back after he had said stop, leave me alone,
19:02
Speaker 3: and she wouldn't that. Now she's turned the tables and
19:05
Speaker 3: now she's planning something else.
19:06
Speaker 2: Maybe yeah.
19:08
Speaker 1: And I think that many people would, in a knee
19:11
Speaker 1: jerk manner, probably say that she's simply crazy and dismiss it.
19:19
Speaker 1: But let me tell you this, just because somebody actually
19:25
Speaker 1: behaves in a manner in which you see as quote
19:28
Speaker 1: unquote crazy does not necessarily mean that they're insane. However,
19:36
Speaker 1: what it might mean is that they are pure evil.
19:53
Speaker 1: Who actually makes a comment that is socallous when speaking
20:02
Speaker 1: of the dead. And again, I want to, as you know,
20:05
Speaker 1: as an advocate for the dead, here, I gotta say
20:08
Speaker 1: the dead. The dead can't offer up any testimony on
20:11
Speaker 1: their on behalf. We need to keep that in mind.
20:14
Speaker 1: But what, what kind of person in what context was
20:16
Speaker 1: this comment about those jobs made?
20:18
Speaker 3: Dave Well On the night in question, October the twelfth,
20:22
Speaker 3: twenty twelve, Shanna Hubers is at Ryan Posting's house. They
20:26
Speaker 3: spent October the eleventh together and had actually gone to
20:30
Speaker 3: Shane's mother's house. Ryan was trying to ease her out
20:34
Speaker 3: of the relationship. He told Shana, I have a date
20:38
Speaker 3: tomorrow night on the twelfth, at nine thirty pm. I
20:42
Speaker 3: have a date. By the way, his date was with
20:45
Speaker 3: the reigning Miss Ohio USA. Her name is Audrey Bolt.
20:50
Speaker 3: He has a d and he's telling her this now.
20:52
Speaker 3: He's trying to be nice to Shana so that he
20:55
Speaker 3: can leave with class. But they go to Shane his
20:59
Speaker 3: mom's house on our cover October twelfth or October the eleventh.
21:02
Speaker 3: She spends the night. She will not leave Ryan's house.
21:05
Speaker 3: After everything he's trying to do, she still won't leave.
21:07
Speaker 3: So on October the twelfth, he's telling her, I have
21:11
Speaker 3: a date. I'm going out. You need to leave, and
21:15
Speaker 3: she won't. On October the twelfth, nine one one gets
21:19
Speaker 3: a call. Emergency medical Services called to the scene because
21:28
Speaker 3: Shana Hubers says, I shot my boyfriend in self defense.
21:36
Speaker 3: That's the case. I shot my boyfriend in self defense.
21:42
Speaker 3: In this nine to one one call, it's hours later
21:45
Speaker 3: when she's being interviewed by police and she explains the
21:48
Speaker 3: shooting and by the way, six shots in all, and
21:53
Speaker 3: she says to the investigator, a female investigator, she's sitting
21:58
Speaker 3: in the room and Shaney says, he's vain. He wanted
22:03
Speaker 3: ben ears and he wanted a nose job. So I
22:07
Speaker 3: gave him the nose job he always wanted by shooting
22:12
Speaker 3: him in the face. Joe, that was That's where the
22:15
Speaker 3: nose job murder comes from. I shot him in the face,
22:18
Speaker 3: and I gave him the nose job he always wanted.
22:23
Speaker 1: Wow, you know, it's not too often I think a
22:26
Speaker 1: lot of people. Again, forgive me, Dave. You know, I'm
22:31
Speaker 1: always referring to things that we see in Hollywood. Things
22:34
Speaker 1: we see in movies as kind of a point of reference,
22:40
Speaker 1: but we I feel as though I'm compelled to do
22:43
Speaker 1: that because they get so much wrong, and you know,
22:47
Speaker 1: from a forensics perspective, how we handle cases and probability
22:52
Speaker 1: and all sorts of things. First off, headshots are very
22:56
Speaker 1: difficult to score really when you think about it, Yes,
22:59
Speaker 1: they are. Yeah, you know, when when you're firing, it's
23:04
Speaker 1: a smaller object. You know, if you're in the military,
23:06
Speaker 1: if you've worked in law enforcement, or if you just
23:08
Speaker 1: enjoy weapons and you go out training and you have
23:11
Speaker 1: an instructor, the one thing they're always going to tell you,
23:13
Speaker 1: particularly when you're thinking about firing from the perspective of
23:17
Speaker 1: an aggressor coming at you, you always fire for center mass.
23:22
Speaker 2: Okay.
23:23
Speaker 1: Center mass means that you know, essentially if you think
23:27
Speaker 1: about from the shoulders to the abdomen, okay, well that's
23:30
Speaker 1: a much bigger target than the head, right. So it's
23:34
Speaker 1: and Hollywood loves to deal in fantasy, okay, and it's
23:40
Speaker 1: it's fantastical many times to think, well, they scored a
23:43
Speaker 1: head shot from a great distance. I love these movies
23:46
Speaker 1: that show someone firing a pistol, and it's from yards
23:51
Speaker 1: and yards and yards away, and they score you know,
23:54
Speaker 1: a center mass. I mean they score a head shot
23:57
Speaker 1: as opposed to firing at center asked and knock the
24:00
Speaker 1: person down. And those are the exceptions, not the rules. Okay, However,
24:07
Speaker 1: if you do score a headshot. The first thing, as
24:10
Speaker 1: far as range of fire goes, that I like to
24:12
Speaker 1: think of is that I think about proximity because most
24:18
Speaker 1: of the time when you fire fire a weapon, it
24:25
Speaker 1: is It's different firing at static targets. You know, if
24:28
Speaker 1: you've got a paper target that's hanging up, or if
24:29
Speaker 1: you're shooting you know, I don't know, old coffee cans
24:32
Speaker 1: off of a fence post, which my grandfather used to do.
24:35
Speaker 1: Taught me how to shoot that way with a BB gun. Actually,
24:40
Speaker 1: that's completely different than working in a dynamic environment. We
24:44
Speaker 1: have an individual advancing on you. You know, say you've got
24:48
Speaker 1: this woman who is being abused and she feels threatened
24:54
Speaker 1: and she shoes do you want to hear? Literally right now,
24:57
Speaker 1: I want to tell you about this one of the
24:59
Speaker 1: most fantastic, I say fantastic, one of the most unbelievable
25:04
Speaker 1: shots that I have ever borne. Witness to as an investigator.
25:09
Speaker 1: And again, now this is a true case of domestic abuse.
25:15
Speaker 1: There was case that I worked many many years ago,
25:18
Speaker 1: immediately adjacent to the New Orleans International Airport, and there
25:24
Speaker 1: was a trailer park underneath an overpass, if you can
25:27
Speaker 1: imagine that. So you're living beneath an underpass an overpass
25:32
Speaker 1: in trailers, immediately adjacent to the airport, which is an
25:37
Speaker 1: international airport, and it's busy, So you've got the sound
25:40
Speaker 1: of traffic over you, and you've also got the sound
25:43
Speaker 1: of jets taking off and landing there at lou Armstrong Airport. Dave,
25:50
Speaker 1: there was this man and a woman that lived together
25:53
Speaker 1: in this trailer, and the trailer itself had a set
25:57
Speaker 1: of concrete steps that you would push up to the side,
26:00
Speaker 1: you know, prefab steps, that was a single entrance into
26:03
Speaker 1: it that actually had steps, and they have screen door
26:06
Speaker 1: on the trailer and they would leave the primary interior
26:09
Speaker 1: door open. Well, he had beaten this poor woman over
26:13
Speaker 1: and over again. He'd get hammered, drunk, he'd raise his
26:16
Speaker 1: hand to her and then he would have these you know,
26:22
Speaker 1: bold things that he would get out in the yard
26:24
Speaker 1: start screaming at the trailer. At her, you know, calling
26:28
Speaker 1: her names and just continuing to just act like a
26:31
Speaker 1: wild man after he'd beat her. They'd had the police
26:34
Speaker 1: that had rolled out there a couple of times. The
26:38
Speaker 1: locals that lived there, they saw it happen. You know,
26:41
Speaker 1: they saw him demonstrating out there outside of the trailer.
26:45
Speaker 1: You know, I guess, like marking his territory or something
26:48
Speaker 1: after he would hit this poor woman. Well, he did
26:52
Speaker 1: it one too many times, Dave. And this comes down
26:54
Speaker 1: to the idea, the most incredible shot that I've ever seen,
26:59
Speaker 1: according to witnesses. Now, I saw the aftermath, okay, But
27:02
Speaker 1: according to witnesses, they heard arguing going on, or they
27:06
Speaker 1: heard him screaming. He had walked out of the house
27:11
Speaker 1: off those concrete steps. The screen door was closed behind him,
27:17
Speaker 1: and he said something to her to the effect, I'm
27:23
Speaker 1: going to come back in there and beat your ass again.
27:27
Speaker 1: And he had said that, and he's screaming this, and
27:29
Speaker 1: he's screaming it over and over again, and this poor
27:33
Speaker 1: and she was a little bitty tiny thing. She retrieves
27:38
Speaker 1: a twenty five caliber pistol, which is one of the
27:42
Speaker 1: smallest caliber handguns you can have. Some people refer to
27:45
Speaker 1: it as a pocket pistol or a belly gun. He
27:52
Speaker 1: is at the base of the stairs, Dave, and he's
27:54
Speaker 1: yelling at her, and somebody says they heard him say
28:01
Speaker 1: you've oh, you've got the gun. You've got the gun.
28:06
Speaker 1: Go ahead, go ahead. I'm a man, I can take it.
28:10
Speaker 1: And he made that pronouncement one more time, I'm a
28:13
Speaker 1: man I can take and it cut off and it
28:15
Speaker 1: was replaced with a sound of pop. Dave. She shot
28:19
Speaker 1: this guy through an intermediate target, which is the screen
28:22
Speaker 1: door on a downward trajectory, and Dave, here comes a
28:27
Speaker 1: big finish. His mouth was open, he was in mid sentence.
28:30
Speaker 1: That round passed through his open mouth and actually lodged,
28:36
Speaker 1: actually lodged in in the base of his brain at
28:40
Speaker 1: the stem his spine, at the at the stem of
28:42
Speaker 1: the spinal cord there the brain stem rather and dropped
28:47
Speaker 1: him immediately to his knees. Now that goes to a
28:51
Speaker 1: range of fire in proximity. How do you score it? Well,
28:53
Speaker 1: that was a one in a million shot through a
28:55
Speaker 1: screen door, through an into an open mouth and lodging
28:59
Speaker 1: in the rain stem. When we look at the this
29:03
Speaker 1: Huber's case involving you know Ron pottson these shots that
29:10
Speaker 1: were fired, and I think, Dave, give me, correct me
29:13
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. How many were there?
29:14
Speaker 3: There were six six There were two shots right away
29:19
Speaker 3: and ear witnesses two quick shots and then quiet for
29:25
Speaker 3: enough time to be noted by the ear witnesses next door,
29:29
Speaker 3: and then a succession of four more shots. So bam bam, bam, bam,
29:35
Speaker 3: bam bam.
29:38
Speaker 1: And that and it was a three eighty pistol that
29:41
Speaker 1: she had. And that's that is like in when we
29:44
Speaker 1: think about these belly guns, as I mentioned just a
29:47
Speaker 1: second ago, pocket pistols, you've got you've got three. There
29:52
Speaker 1: used to be four, uh, and you can still find
29:55
Speaker 1: the fourth caliber. But it's rare. Twenty two caliber, okay,
30:01
Speaker 1: twenty two caliber pistol. And this is you can hold
30:04
Speaker 1: it in the palm of your hand and people wouldn't
30:06
Speaker 1: know that you have it. A twenty five caliber, the
30:10
Speaker 1: afore mentioned caliber I was referring to with this this
30:13
Speaker 1: miraculous shot. And then three eighty. The three eighty is
30:17
Speaker 1: zero point three eight zero caliber. It's just like a
30:20
Speaker 1: thirty eight special, but it's not the three eighty. The
30:24
Speaker 1: three eighty caliber is not as robust as a thirty
30:27
Speaker 1: eight Special, which cops used to carry. The diameter of
30:31
Speaker 1: the projectile is is the same, okay, But the robustness,
30:35
Speaker 1: the length, the weight of the projectile of a three
30:40
Speaker 1: to eighty versus a thirty eight special is not as
30:44
Speaker 1: as robust as a thirty eight Special. But you'll see
30:47
Speaker 1: people that want to have a concealed weapon on them
30:50
Speaker 1: carry these things. And Dave, you have to be in
30:53
Speaker 1: close proximity for these things to be effective. Okay, now
30:57
Speaker 1: you can. You can score a shot from a distance,
31:01
Speaker 1: but with those smaller calibers like that at a greater distance,
31:07
Speaker 1: it's as much luck as it is skilled. So this
31:09
Speaker 1: tells me about this case that you had to have
31:14
Speaker 1: very close proximity when this weapon was being fired. And
31:19
Speaker 1: here's another bit about this. The assessment of Ryan's injuries
31:26
Speaker 1: indicated that he had stippling on his face all about,
31:32
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, associated with these rounds. And
31:35
Speaker 1: I got to tell you, for those that don't know,
31:39
Speaker 1: those bits of evidence that are left behind by unburnt gunpowder,
31:44
Speaker 1: for instance, will always.
31:49
Speaker 2: Tell the tale.
32:03
Speaker 1: Ballistic fingerprints. I think that that's a term that is
32:07
Speaker 1: thrown around frequently, and it's kind of broad ranging depended
32:13
Speaker 1: upon how it's being applied, because you have markings on bullets.
32:20
Speaker 1: You have things that are kind of left behind by
32:22
Speaker 1: projectiles and even by weapons themselves that we look at
32:28
Speaker 1: that are going to paint the picture when a firearm
32:30
Speaker 1: is involved.
32:30
Speaker 3: Dave, Now I've got questions about multiple things here, Joe.
32:34
Speaker 3: So one, Shanny Heuvers from the very beginning claimed it
32:38
Speaker 3: was self defense. And we also know that before she
32:42
Speaker 3: called nine to one one she called her mother. All right,
32:46
Speaker 3: So yeah, now I want to get back to the shooting.
32:49
Speaker 3: You said stipling on our victim here, Ryan had stippling.
32:53
Speaker 3: We know there are six shots. We know that Shanny
32:57
Speaker 3: Hubvers claims that he was standing coming towards her. The
33:02
Speaker 3: story is that he pulled a gun on her, that
33:05
Speaker 3: he had been beating her all day like a rag doll,
33:07
Speaker 3: throwing her around and that, and that he pulled a
33:11
Speaker 3: gun and she, fearing for her life, grabbed a gun
33:15
Speaker 3: and shot him six times in the face. And that's
33:19
Speaker 3: her story, and she's sticking to it. So if he's
33:23
Speaker 3: standing and she shoots him only because he's coming at
33:26
Speaker 3: her and she fears for her life, I'm going to
33:28
Speaker 3: assume and I want you to correct me that there's
33:30
Speaker 3: going to be indications of that based on blood on
33:35
Speaker 3: him and surrounding areas. Prosecution claims he was not standing.
33:39
Speaker 3: They claim he was sitting. I've got to assume here
33:43
Speaker 3: that we've got a lot of differences between somebody standing
33:47
Speaker 3: being shot in the head and sitting being shot in
33:49
Speaker 3: the head. And you just said stipling. So yeah, there's
33:53
Speaker 3: a whole lot to unpack here, Joe.
33:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there are. And let me kind of lay
33:58
Speaker 1: this out to you when we say stipling relative to
34:02
Speaker 1: our findings in forensic pathology, and stippling will be you
34:07
Speaker 1: look at the skin and bits of unburned gunpowder will
34:16
Speaker 1: actually be with great force slam into the skin and
34:25
Speaker 1: it kind of buries itself there. And what it looks like, Okay,
34:29
Speaker 1: this is what it looks like. Just imagine, if you will,
34:34
Speaker 1: you had a handful of black pepper, okay, and you
34:38
Speaker 1: just kind of take it and slap it onto a
34:40
Speaker 1: particular surface. You're not kind of tossing it out, you know,
34:44
Speaker 1: like shaking it out of a shaker. You've got a
34:46
Speaker 1: handful of it, okay, and you lay it down on
34:49
Speaker 1: a surface and you'll see if you did that, you
34:52
Speaker 1: would see it kind of concentrated in a particular area,
34:55
Speaker 1: and as it begins to extend out from the center,
34:57
Speaker 1: it becomes more widely dispersed. That's kind of what stippling
35:01
Speaker 1: looks like. Most of the time, you'll have a defect,
35:04
Speaker 1: which is just a fancy term that forensic pathologists use
35:09
Speaker 1: for a whole all right, So when you're talking about
35:12
Speaker 1: firearms related desks, so you got the hole that's generated
35:16
Speaker 1: by the projectile, and that's called a defect, and then
35:20
Speaker 1: extending out from it, you'll have these little bitty dots
35:23
Speaker 1: that look like black pepper. Well, those dots are stippling.
35:27
Speaker 1: That's unburned propellant or gunpowder that comes out of the
35:34
Speaker 1: end of the muzzle when the weapon is discharged. So
35:37
Speaker 1: you think that everything is burned up because you know,
35:40
Speaker 1: it's like when you fire a bullet. I was actually
35:42
Speaker 1: just teaching this the other day in my intro forensics class.
35:48
Speaker 1: When you fire a bullet, okay, a live round, it's
35:53
Speaker 1: almost like launching a rocket. You have a primer cap
35:56
Speaker 1: in the bottom, Okay, that's got an un It's it's
36:00
Speaker 1: less stable than gunpowder itself. The primer, because what you
36:04
Speaker 1: want to do is you tap it. It's actually a
36:07
Speaker 1: cap that's below there. It sends a spark through the
36:10
Speaker 1: flash holes in the base of the projectile.
36:13
Speaker 2: Uh.
36:14
Speaker 1: The powder is seated on top of the flash holes
36:16
Speaker 1: and the flat and the powder ignites and it drives
36:19
Speaker 1: out the projectile. And so just because this thing ignites
36:25
Speaker 1: and it burns off and you hear the loud pop
36:28
Speaker 1: that comes along with a weapon being fired, doesn't mean
36:32
Speaker 1: that all that powder is consumed by the fire. Some
36:34
Speaker 1: of it's just gets blown out through the explosion, and
36:38
Speaker 1: it's it's not as it's not what an engineer would
36:43
Speaker 1: call efficient. Uh. You know. So people want to have
36:49
Speaker 1: a propellant or the gunpowder. They want to have it
36:55
Speaker 1: to the point chemically where you're going to get literally
36:58
Speaker 1: the most bang for your buck. Sometimes it just doesn't
37:01
Speaker 1: totally ignite. That powder's driven out of the end of
37:04
Speaker 1: the barrel and it's got to go somewhere. Here's the
37:07
Speaker 1: trick though, Dave powder. If you think about talcum powder,
37:13
Speaker 1: for instance, and you just put it in your hand,
37:15
Speaker 1: you blew it out, what's it going to do? Well,
37:18
Speaker 1: after a few feet, the blown air that comes out
37:21
Speaker 1: from between your lips is going to be insufficient to
37:26
Speaker 1: drive that powder any further down range away from the
37:29
Speaker 1: palm of your hand that you've blown it out of.
37:31
Speaker 1: It's going to drift down to the earth. Okay, Gravity's
37:34
Speaker 1: going to take over a bullet down Well, just like
37:37
Speaker 1: that gunpowder is not very aerodynamic, Okay, it bleeds off
37:44
Speaker 1: that energy really quick and after that initial blast it
37:48
Speaker 1: drifts away. So once you get out outside, I think,
37:52
Speaker 1: in my opinion, particularly with a three eighty, once you
37:55
Speaker 1: get outside of about eighteen to twenty five inches this
38:00
Speaker 1: particular caliber, there won't be any evidence of it. More
38:03
Speaker 1: than likely you might have a bit of it kind
38:05
Speaker 1: of float down and whatnot, But that kind of concentrated
38:08
Speaker 1: blast that you get that's going to lead to actually
38:11
Speaker 1: blasting into the skin. So for us when we're talking
38:15
Speaker 1: about this and we're trying to determine range of fire,
38:19
Speaker 1: we're going to look at the distribution pattern of the stipling.
38:24
Speaker 1: So the further out it is that it extends from
38:28
Speaker 1: that little central hole that the bullet has made or
38:30
Speaker 1: projectile has made, the greater the distance because it spreads
38:33
Speaker 1: out almost like a if you're firing like bird shot,
38:36
Speaker 1: out of a shotgun, it kind of spreads, well, same principle,
38:41
Speaker 1: it spreads, and the further out it spreads, you know
38:44
Speaker 1: that the individual firing the weapon was further away. So
38:48
Speaker 1: the tighter the concentration, the closer it is.
38:51
Speaker 3: Okay, So you can tell by these shots whether or
38:57
Speaker 3: not Ryan was standing or sitting, Yes, was charging forward?
39:01
Speaker 3: What did the blood tell you? Because I know that
39:03
Speaker 3: they actually discussed where the blood was on his shirt
39:07
Speaker 3: and undershirt and is I guess he was wearing sweatpants
39:13
Speaker 3: where the blood was from him? Because Shane Hubs was not.
39:16
Speaker 3: And by the way, her claiming that she had been
39:19
Speaker 3: slung around that condo like a rag doll and all
39:22
Speaker 3: that when police got to the scene, that's not what
39:26
Speaker 3: they described seeing.
39:29
Speaker 1: What did I tell you? I think it was just
39:30
Speaker 1: a couple episodes we ago. We had the same discussion
39:32
Speaker 1: about what's our canned our canned line, Let's see if
39:36
Speaker 1: you remember it. We go to the scene and are
39:39
Speaker 1: there any what's it sign? What do we say? Were
39:42
Speaker 1: there any signs of.
39:47
Speaker 3: Joe I'm a nut. I can't and.
39:49
Speaker 1: I'll give it to you. Any signs of fourth century
39:52
Speaker 1: or struggle?
39:52
Speaker 3: Thank you?
39:53
Speaker 1: That's that's kind of our that's ground zero for what
39:56
Speaker 1: we do. And if I've got a if I've got
39:59
Speaker 1: a victim, if I've got a victim of saying he
40:04
Speaker 1: has been beating my tail all day. As a matter
40:06
Speaker 1: of that, she goes into great detail, he has been
40:09
Speaker 1: throwing me around like a rag doll, flung me into
40:12
Speaker 1: the TV. Yeah, and guess what TV is still functioning.
40:17
Speaker 3: With dust on it. It's got dust on it. His dad,
40:20
Speaker 3: I mean, family members said he was kind of a slob. Okay,
40:24
Speaker 3: they were. They're not being mean to say that. It's
40:26
Speaker 3: just day. He was kind of a slob, slob, And
40:29
Speaker 3: that's the fact that they pointed out on the TV.
40:31
Speaker 3: She specifically said he flung me into the TV, and
40:34
Speaker 3: when they looked at the TV, there was dust on it.
40:39
Speaker 1: And that's something that we that we would notice very
40:43
Speaker 1: quickly because and I've actually, I don't know if I've
40:46
Speaker 1: ever had a television. I have had a door though,
40:51
Speaker 1: where individual claimed that they had been thrown into and
40:54
Speaker 1: there was a dusty it was, it was covered with dust,
40:58
Speaker 1: and I've seen a point of impact in dust and
41:02
Speaker 1: you can almost make out an outline on the door
41:06
Speaker 1: where you could see like the lateral like the right
41:08
Speaker 1: lateral side impacts. I've seen this on cars, Dave, dusty
41:12
Speaker 1: cars that people are hit by. I saw a guy
41:15
Speaker 1: that was almost bent like a pretzel that the impact
41:19
Speaker 1: was like in his hip of the bumper, but he
41:22
Speaker 1: bent to the point where you could see his arm
41:26
Speaker 1: catching himself on the hood of the car. I actually
41:29
Speaker 1: had it happen on a Marta train one time. I
41:32
Speaker 1: had a guy that committed suicide by throwing himself in
41:35
Speaker 1: the main the main what's called Little five or it's
41:38
Speaker 1: called actually five Points, Little five Points another location in Atlanta,
41:42
Speaker 1: but in the five Points there, which is the main
41:44
Speaker 1: hub where you get onto the Marta trains, and you
41:47
Speaker 1: could see his arm, the outline of his arm where
41:51
Speaker 1: it hit the dust, and you could see his fingers
41:54
Speaker 1: even extended when he was impacted by that train. So
41:57
Speaker 1: that kind of disturbance are lacked there up. It's going
42:00
Speaker 1: to tell slot if you're telling me that you've been
42:03
Speaker 1: slammed around this apartment, I'm not just going to look
42:05
Speaker 1: for disturbed dust on a television. I'm going to look for,
42:09
Speaker 1: you know, any kind of knickknack that has been busted
42:13
Speaker 1: or are broken and there's a big difference. Listen, I
42:16
Speaker 1: don't know about you, but I am a slob. I
42:19
Speaker 1: am a slob. I freely admitted. I'm I'm part of
42:22
Speaker 1: the slob kingdom. So for me, in this environment, we
42:29
Speaker 1: can I can walk in I can walk into a
42:31
Speaker 1: hoarder's home, which I've walked into a lot of these
42:34
Speaker 1: homes where people have died, and I can tell what
42:37
Speaker 1: was naturally not naturally that that makes it sound like
42:42
Speaker 1: nature had a hand, but what items have been placed
42:47
Speaker 1: in a location and have been there for a protracted
42:49
Speaker 1: period of time, as opposed to somebody being in an
42:53
Speaker 1: environment where a tussle has taken place, or maybe they've
42:56
Speaker 1: fallen over and knocked something over. It just looks different.
42:59
Speaker 1: It looks different than sloppiness. And so I think that
43:03
Speaker 1: that's you know, you're right, you know, that's what his
43:05
Speaker 1: dad was saying about this, that yeah, my son's a slob.
43:09
Speaker 1: That's okay, you know, he is a slob. But there's
43:12
Speaker 1: a big difference between being a slob and having you know,
43:15
Speaker 1: a bust of TV or maybe broken furniture or anything
43:19
Speaker 1: like that.
43:20
Speaker 3: And that was their point, is that, Okay, he's a slob, fine,
43:23
Speaker 3: but there's no indication that a violent struggle happened in
43:29
Speaker 3: this condo. And this is all in the first minutes
43:35
Speaker 3: of the investigation where they see the scene. You've got
43:39
Speaker 3: the twenty nine year old dead, and she's claiming he
43:42
Speaker 3: was standing charging towards her when she shot him. The
43:46
Speaker 3: physical evidence does not show that. The prosecution claims he
43:51
Speaker 3: was sitting at the table, Joe at the dining room table,
43:53
Speaker 3: sitting at the table in a chair when he was shot.
43:56
Speaker 3: How are you going to prove that. I mean, you
43:58
Speaker 3: talked about the stippling, so I understand being closed, but
44:01
Speaker 3: what about the blood on the shirt and on the sweatpants.
44:04
Speaker 1: Let me tell you what's going to happen when you
44:06
Speaker 1: know I was talking about rhinoplasty earlier and kind of
44:09
Speaker 1: the the tools that they utilize. One of the things
44:13
Speaker 1: you find out with the head human head, it's very vascular.
44:17
Speaker 1: Probably out of all of the regions of the body.
44:23
Speaker 1: You've got more vessels that pass for the size relative
44:27
Speaker 1: size of the head, more vessels that pass through it
44:30
Speaker 1: than any other location in the body. It is because
44:32
Speaker 1: the brain demands so much blood. Okay, so when you're
44:39
Speaker 1: slammed in the face with a projectile. One of the
44:43
Speaker 1: things that's going to happen are multiple little fractures all
44:47
Speaker 1: over the place when an individual essentially takes their own
44:54
Speaker 1: life with a weapon, whether it be to the side
44:58
Speaker 1: of the head or in the mouth, you're fracturing that
45:04
Speaker 1: that uh, the floor of the skull essentially, and all
45:08
Speaker 1: of the associated support structures, facial facial structures, and they
45:13
Speaker 1: have so many vessels that pour that run through them.
45:17
Speaker 1: That's why you'll see like a tremendous amount of blood
45:20
Speaker 1: that issues forth from the body almost immediately. And if
45:26
Speaker 1: you are in a seated position. Okay, so where you
45:32
Speaker 1: and I are sitting across the table from one another.
45:37
Speaker 1: If we're in a seated position and a projectile hit
45:43
Speaker 1: you center mass in the face, they write in the
45:46
Speaker 1: nose for lack of a better uh, you know, anatomic position,
45:51
Speaker 1: blood is going to almost immediately begin to gush out
45:54
Speaker 1: of your nose, in your mouth. I've seen this happen
45:56
Speaker 1: both ways. Well where does it wind up. Well, obviously
45:58
Speaker 1: it's going to get out the front of your sh
46:00
Speaker 1: or if you're seated, it's going to wind up staining
46:04
Speaker 1: your lap. But here's the thing. When you get the
46:07
Speaker 1: body in a position where you can examine it and
46:10
Speaker 1: say you've extended the legs like on an examining table,
46:14
Speaker 1: and you're looking at the clothing, did you know that
46:16
Speaker 1: you will see a big bloodstain on the lap, then
46:19
Speaker 1: probably on the upper chest, maybe running down to the abdomen.
46:22
Speaker 1: But when the legs are extended, you'll see a big
46:25
Speaker 1: gap in the waste between where the blood starts on
46:30
Speaker 1: the tops of the thighs and where it ends at,
46:34
Speaker 1: say the abdomen. When you spread the body out, you'll
46:36
Speaker 1: see a gap, and that gives you an indication that
46:40
Speaker 1: perhaps a person was in a seated position. Now you
46:44
Speaker 1: have to couple that when you begin to talk about
46:46
Speaker 1: her relationship relative and I'm talking about physical, dynamic crime
46:51
Speaker 1: scene relationship. We're not talking about doctor Phil here where
46:56
Speaker 1: you're you also have to factor in trajectory because it's
47:00
Speaker 1: not just his position, it's her position as well. So
47:05
Speaker 1: if you look at if you look at where positionality
47:10
Speaker 1: relative to the end of the muzzle, was she firing
47:13
Speaker 1: from above to below? And remember when you read a
47:15
Speaker 1: lot of these autopsy reports involving and you and I
47:18
Speaker 1: certainly have, you begin to describe these injuries. The physician
47:22
Speaker 1: will always talk about it's left to right, front to back,
47:26
Speaker 1: and either from below to above or from above to below.
47:31
Speaker 1: That gives us that's a three dimensional portrait that you're painting.
47:35
Speaker 1: Their relative to trajectory, and that's important as well. So
47:39
Speaker 1: it's not just a range of fire, it's also the trajectory.
47:42
Speaker 1: But I got to tell you, I want to conclude
47:44
Speaker 1: by saying this a quote directly from my good friend
47:49
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, and hopefully she won't come down too hard
47:53
Speaker 1: on me for, you know, borrowing this, but she always says,
47:59
Speaker 1: if you want to know the whole worse, check its
48:02
Speaker 1: track record. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body backs.
48:12
Speaker 2: H mm hmm