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The Knife: Off Record – 114 · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm Patia Eaton. I'm
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Speaker 1: Hannah Smith, and today we have two stories for you. First,
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Speaker 1: Pasha will tell me about a case that she's been
0:30
Speaker 1: looking into, and then I will tell her a story
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Speaker 1: after that. And both of our stories are thematically connected.
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Speaker 1: They both have something to do with adoption fraud, but
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Speaker 1: very different kinds of stories. So let's just get right
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Speaker 1: into it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So a while back I met with a couple,
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Speaker 2: Salicia and Eric Milligan, and they wanted to talk about
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Speaker 2: their story with adoption fraud. This all happened back in
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Speaker 2: twenty fourteen. Salisha and Eric met at work. They live
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Speaker 2: in the South and Eric had been previously married Sheliicia
1:04
Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily interested in him in that way, but he
1:07
Speaker 2: was stopping by her desk a lot, and eventually they
1:11
Speaker 2: go on a date and the rest is sort of
1:14
Speaker 2: history for their relationship.
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Speaker 3: They were, you know, really.
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Speaker 2: Excited to start a family together. Salisha didn't have any children,
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Speaker 2: Eric had children from a previous marriage, and in twenty
1:26
Speaker 2: nineteen they start trying for a baby. So, because Eric
1:30
Speaker 2: has children from a previous marriage. When they begin having
1:35
Speaker 2: trouble conceiving, Slisha pretty quickly decides to get tested and
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Speaker 2: these has revealed that both of her fallopian tubes were blocked,
1:44
Speaker 2: so it was going to be extremely difficult for her
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Speaker 2: to conceive, and so they start looking at alternative forms
1:53
Speaker 2: of you know, becoming parents. They looked into embryo adoption,
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Speaker 2: and they did a transfer that was unsuccessful and actually
2:01
Speaker 2: ended in miscarriage, and that was a very difficult thing
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Speaker 2: to go through, as you can imagine, and they didn't
2:07
Speaker 2: want to, you know, experience that again, and so they
2:10
Speaker 2: started looking into adoption. And by this time it's twenty twenty,
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Speaker 2: they're just starting their adoption journey. And if you don't
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Speaker 2: know anything about adoption, it can be extremely expensive. It
2:23
Speaker 2: can be upwards of like forty thousand dollars. So they
2:26
Speaker 2: were doing like private adoption. Yeah, so the route that
2:29
Speaker 2: they were planning to go was to avoid an agency
2:32
Speaker 2: because forty thousand dollars is just so much money, so
2:35
Speaker 2: much money, and instead self match and self matching is
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Speaker 2: basically you put it out there that you're looking to adopt,
2:43
Speaker 2: and you you know, try to reach mothers or you know,
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Speaker 2: pregnant people who are perhaps interested in finding an adoptive
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Speaker 2: couple for their child. So that's what they did. They
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Speaker 2: joined Facebook groups. So this is July now of twenty twenty.
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Speaker 2: They have a home they go through the whole thing
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Speaker 2: there by the book okay, and in August they get
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Speaker 2: a message.
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Speaker 3: Wow, that's fast, really really fast.
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Speaker 2: And one thing that Shelisha and Eric were super aware
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Speaker 2: of and mindful of is doing this the right way
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Speaker 2: because adoption, even when it's not, you know, fraudulent, can
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Speaker 2: be a really muddy thing. There's an exchange of money,
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Speaker 2: which sometimes makes sense, but making sense of it can
3:30
Speaker 2: be really difficult. You know, you want to maybe provide
3:34
Speaker 2: for the birth mother for good reasons, but you also
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Speaker 2: don't want to get into a situation where you're paying
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Speaker 2: for a child, right, buying a baby, buying a baby
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Speaker 2: and not good, not good. And they absolutely didn't want
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Speaker 2: to be a part of that either. So they did
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Speaker 2: this home study, they got approved, they get this message,
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Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, here's the good luck that we haven't
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Speaker 2: had yet in this journey. And the person who reached
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Speaker 2: out identify herself to Slisha as a sixteen year old
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Speaker 2: girl living in Texas, and she identified herself as Melody,
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Speaker 2: and she said that she was pregnant by her stepfather.
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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, which you know that's rape.
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Speaker 2: And Salisha was immediately concerned for this girl's well being.
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Speaker 2: That was her primary focus. You know, they were not
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Speaker 2: even excited about the prospect of adopting as much in
4:29
Speaker 2: that moment as they were Okay, let's see if we
4:31
Speaker 2: can get this young woman some help. This girl some help,
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Speaker 2: and let's get in touch with our lawyer.
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Speaker 1: Was this just messages back and forth at this time
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Speaker 1: or did they talk on the phone or anything like that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it starts out as Facebook messages and then
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Speaker 2: they start talking on the phone, but pretty quickly Selicia
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Speaker 2: gets her lawyer involved. Okay, because this girl tells them
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Speaker 2: that she hasn't had prenatal care. She's in a dangerous
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Speaker 2: situation because she still lives in the home with her stepfather.
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Speaker 2: She tells them that her older brother is incarcerated because
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Speaker 2: he actually had a physical altercation with their stepfather about
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Speaker 2: what happened. So they make her arrangements to get her
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Speaker 2: to a safe house. And you know, this is all
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Speaker 2: sort of happening as Shelicia and Eric are talking to
5:16
Speaker 2: her more and more about the pregnancy. She says she's
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Speaker 2: due in December, and so I think in September is
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Speaker 2: when they get her to the safe house. The lawyer
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Speaker 2: makes arrangements to get her somewhere else in Texas, I
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Speaker 2: think in San Antonio, and they pick her up and
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Speaker 2: she goes okay. So now she's safe. They start talking
5:34
Speaker 2: to her a little more about her situation and they're like,
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Speaker 2: we really need to get you checked by a doctor
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Speaker 2: for your health and for the health of the baby.
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Speaker 1: So sorry, is Shelicia and Eric are they there with
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Speaker 1: her or just the attorney.
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Speaker 2: The attorney had representatives from the safe house go and
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Speaker 2: get her.
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Speaker 1: So Salicia and Eric notified their attorney, who also it
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Speaker 1: sounds like, was like, we need to get her out
5:57
Speaker 1: of the situation immediately, and then put that in motion
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Speaker 1: and then they actually do get her away from her house.
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Speaker 1: It sounds like, yeah, they make arrangements to take her
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Speaker 1: to a safe place, a place for girls who need help,
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Speaker 1: and that was in San Antonio. So Shelicia and Eric
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Speaker 1: are not in Texas, their attorney is not in Texas.
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Speaker 1: This is all happening long distance, but they're in constant contact.
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Speaker 3: Okay.
6:23
Speaker 2: And so once she's at the safe house, that's when
6:26
Speaker 2: they start making a plan for her to see a doctor.
6:29
Speaker 2: And it takes some convincing. She's really reluctant. But at
6:34
Speaker 2: this point, you know, it's been multiple months of communication,
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Speaker 2: she's gone to a safe house, and she hasn't taken
6:42
Speaker 2: a dime from them. There's been no money exchanged. So
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Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, she must really need our help. She's
6:48
Speaker 2: not asking us for anything, she's just talking to us
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Speaker 2: and saying that she needs this help and that she
6:53
Speaker 2: wants to place the baby for adoption. So Melody eventually,
6:58
Speaker 2: very reluctantly agrees to go see this doctor, and they
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Speaker 2: make additional arrangements to get her cross state lines to Huntsville, Alabama.
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Speaker 2: This is where things go completely haywire. So Melody arrives
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Speaker 2: to the medical facility and the doctor goes to check
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Speaker 2: on her. You know, they ask you a bunch of questions.
7:20
Speaker 2: They're talking to Okay, when was your last period? The
7:23
Speaker 2: basic basic stuff. But then they want to do a
7:26
Speaker 2: sonogram and she declines. She's like, full stop not doing it.
7:31
Speaker 2: So the doctor leaves the room and he's like okay, well,
7:33
Speaker 2: I can't do much with this, and this is a
7:35
Speaker 2: bit strange. Yeah, And so the lawyer gets on the
7:39
Speaker 2: phone with the people who are with her at the doctor,
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Speaker 2: which was another representative, not Salsia and Nerrick themselves, and
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Speaker 2: the lawyer's like, well, I'm twenty minutes away. I'm going
7:50
Speaker 2: to drive up there and talk to her myself because
7:52
Speaker 2: this is now getting a little weird. So he goes
7:55
Speaker 2: into the room with this girl Melodies who says she's sixteen,
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Speaker 2: And for twenty minutes he's sitting across from her in
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Speaker 2: pretty much silence. She doesn't want to respond to his questions,
8:08
Speaker 2: she doesn't want to talk to him. And in a way,
8:10
Speaker 2: it makes sense. She's a miner, she's in a new place,
8:13
Speaker 2: she's pregnant, she's been yeah, through so much trauma that.
8:18
Speaker 1: It makes sense that she wouldn't want her body touched
8:22
Speaker 1: or yeah, inspected.
8:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so they're trying to sort of toe the
8:26
Speaker 2: line of being sensitive to that and being patient, but
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Speaker 2: also like, well, we need to verify that you're pregnant, right, right,
8:35
Speaker 2: And so after twenty minutes of asking pretty pointed questions,
8:40
Speaker 2: she comes out and says, I'm not sixteen.
8:43
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm not sixteen.
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Speaker 2: And he says okay, and she says I'm actually nineteen
8:49
Speaker 2: and he says okay. Is there anything else? And then
8:54
Speaker 2: she says, I'm not really pregnant. Oh wow, So she
8:58
Speaker 2: had just well one, It's like, then, well, who is
9:02
Speaker 2: this person?
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Speaker 3: Why is this happening? Like what is going on?
9:07
Speaker 2: And so he says to her, well, what were you
9:10
Speaker 2: going to do when you got here? Yeah, like you're
9:13
Speaker 2: at a doctor's appointment to verify your pregnancy. You can't
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Speaker 2: fake that, And she said she doesn't know. Money hadn't
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Speaker 2: exchanged hands. So it was pretty baffling. Other than Shelisha
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Speaker 2: and Erik had been working out money for this attorney,
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Speaker 2: so it's not like this was not costing them any money.
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Speaker 2: It just wasn't going to Melody as she said she was.
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Speaker 2: It's interesting that she got that far along. You know,
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Speaker 2: I'm guessing she just made this story up then for
9:42
Speaker 2: whatever reason. But it's interesting that she went along with
9:45
Speaker 2: the plan when they said we're going to come pick
9:47
Speaker 2: you up from the house, that she didn't just disappear
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Speaker 2: or that she was like, yeah, okay, great, and she
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Speaker 2: went with them. She even goes to the doctor's office, Right, Yeah,
9:58
Speaker 2: it's like what is the end game? Like did you
10:00
Speaker 2: have an out or are you just going to try
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Speaker 2: to like sneak out of the office. So bizarre. So
10:06
Speaker 2: now they're asking her, well, why did you do this?
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Speaker 2: And the best answer she can give them is I
10:11
Speaker 2: can't explain it, And so they make arrangements for her to,
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Speaker 2: you know, go back home to Texas and Salicia and
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Speaker 2: Eric are now it's it's pretty discouraging. They've been through
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Speaker 2: so much emotionally trying to start their family and here's
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Speaker 2: this person who just took them on this emotional rollercoaster.
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Speaker 2: Slicia said that she was starting to buy baby clothes
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Speaker 2: that were for the wintertime, because yeah, this person had
10:40
Speaker 2: said she was doing December, and she was pretty measured
10:43
Speaker 2: about it. She hadn't gotten in like too deep. But
10:46
Speaker 2: it was really hard for them. Yeah, you get your
10:48
Speaker 2: hopes up, it's got to be really hard, really hard.
10:51
Speaker 2: And so in all that time that you're investing your
10:54
Speaker 2: energy into this person, it's not like you're going to
10:57
Speaker 2: engage with another perspective birth mother. So it was really
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Speaker 2: sad and Shelicia goes on Facebook and joins a group
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Speaker 2: called Ending Adoption scams, and she says, has anyone heard
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Speaker 2: of this person? She eventually revealed a different name to
11:16
Speaker 2: them that I'm not going to say, which I'll tell
11:18
Speaker 2: you why. But she goes asleep, she thinks nothing of
11:21
Speaker 2: this Facebook post, like, hopefully someone can see this and
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Speaker 2: not get duped by this same woman. She wakes up
11:28
Speaker 2: to multiple comments saying I've been scammed by this same person,
11:33
Speaker 2: same thing, all emotional, all attention. Didn't take any money
11:37
Speaker 2: from me, and that is probably why she wasn't convicted
11:42
Speaker 2: of a crime. There's actually a famous couple, Bella and
11:45
Speaker 2: doln Lambert, who were scammed by someone I think is
11:49
Speaker 2: the same person, but I wasn't able to verify and
11:53
Speaker 2: once again, was not about money. So I reached out
11:56
Speaker 2: to this Facebook page to see what I could find
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Speaker 2: out about the woman who had identified herself as Melody,
12:01
Speaker 2: and she said that, you know, there were a couple
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Speaker 2: of posts about a woman doing something similar, both in
12:07
Speaker 2: the South and in California, and the reason that they
12:12
Speaker 2: don't face criminal charges is because they're not asking for money.
12:16
Speaker 2: The woman in California eventually did face one charge because
12:19
Speaker 2: she accepted a small amount of money, but she actually
12:21
Speaker 2: wasn't prosecuted because they offered her a mental health program
12:26
Speaker 2: in lieu of prosecution. Okay, and that person is actually
12:30
Speaker 2: an adoptee themselves, so you know, it's like this adopted
12:35
Speaker 2: person goes to scam prospective adoptive parents for attention. I mean,
12:41
Speaker 2: it's really sad, and her parents are aware that she
12:44
Speaker 2: does this, But how do you keep someone off the internet.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so curious what her experience was like as
12:51
Speaker 1: someone who is adopted, Like, what's going on that she's
12:55
Speaker 1: right trying to stop adoptions or get back at adoptive
13:00
Speaker 1: parents or something. I don't know.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a psychologist either.
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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's really strange and unfair to these families.
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Speaker 2: The adoption journey can be really emotional, in controversial, it's
13:14
Speaker 2: difficult to regulate, it's expensive, it can be inaccessible and
13:17
Speaker 2: unfair at times. So there's so much to consider. Shelisha
13:21
Speaker 2: and Eric, their story has a happy ending. They eventually
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Speaker 2: did match with someone and had a child placed in
13:29
Speaker 2: their home. They are now proud parents. We actually saw
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Speaker 2: him on the interview crying. It was so cute Eric
13:36
Speaker 2: rocking him back and forth. Adorable and so Slisha and
13:39
Speaker 2: Eric have you know, come out on the other side
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Speaker 2: of this. But they felt like it was important to
13:44
Speaker 2: talk about because they never really considered that they might
13:46
Speaker 2: be scammed for, you know, someone who wasn't asking for money.
13:51
Speaker 2: With adoption fraud stories, there's not always happy ending. So
13:55
Speaker 2: I'm glad to hear that Salisia and Eric did end
13:58
Speaker 2: up with a child.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's such a sweet couple.
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Speaker 2: And you know, I think it's not easy to talk
14:04
Speaker 2: about being duped by someone when you're already going through
14:07
Speaker 2: something so difficult, and really appreciate them taking the time.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so when you had mentioned talking about this story
14:15
Speaker 1: that you just told me, it made me, of course,
14:17
Speaker 1: think of Tara Lee. We actually covered Tara Lee years ago,
14:23
Speaker 1: around twenty twenty one, did a couple of episodes all
14:27
Speaker 1: about her, you know, adoption fraud that spanned something like
14:31
Speaker 1: twenty four states in the US. Those episodes are not
14:34
Speaker 1: currently available for free online anymore. So I want to
14:37
Speaker 1: talk about it. I think it's a good time to
14:39
Speaker 1: revisit that story. I really remember so many of those
14:43
Speaker 1: interviews very well. Still, I was so impacted by those conversations.
14:48
Speaker 1: I think that we talked with multiple adoptive parents, We
14:51
Speaker 1: talked with birth parents, the FBI, as well as attorneys
14:56
Speaker 1: who you know, worked on this. So there's also a
14:59
Speaker 1: couple of updates the case that are pretty recent.
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Speaker 3: So great.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So Tara Lee founded and ran Always Hope Pregnancy
15:13
Speaker 1: Center in Michigan from about twenty fourteen to twenty eighteen,
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Speaker 1: and she advertised it as different things at different times
15:22
Speaker 1: to different people, but often as a pregnancy crisis center.
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Speaker 1: Really she functioned as an adoption agency, and as you mentioned,
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Speaker 1: there's a lot of complications when you're trying to adopt someone,
15:36
Speaker 1: specifically a baby. In the US, there's like very very
15:40
Speaker 1: high demand, so oftentimes people will be on a list
15:45
Speaker 1: for a long time. It's not unusual to be on
15:47
Speaker 1: a list waiting for over a year or longer to
15:50
Speaker 1: get any kind of contact or news about a potential adoption.
15:55
Speaker 1: Most of the people who ended up being victims of
15:58
Speaker 1: Tara were in that same situation. Wanted to have children
16:03
Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons. We're not able to write
16:05
Speaker 1: and so we're looking into adoption. A couple of people
16:09
Speaker 1: that we talked to actually talked about the difficulty even
16:13
Speaker 1: with private adoption agencies in the US. We spoke with
16:17
Speaker 1: a woman named Amber, who was a single woman who
16:20
Speaker 1: you know, had saved up money. She felt like her
16:23
Speaker 1: life was very stable, she was ready to be a parent,
16:25
Speaker 1: she just didn't have a partner, and she was rejected
16:28
Speaker 1: by a lot of adoption agencies because she's single, she
16:32
Speaker 1: didn't have a husband. They didn't like that. You know,
16:35
Speaker 1: it's so wild to think about. There's so much I
16:37
Speaker 1: could say about that. So anyway, usually it was like
16:42
Speaker 1: a person or a couple would go down this rabbit
16:46
Speaker 1: hole and then either they're waiting for so long to
16:49
Speaker 1: get matched or they're rejected even by these agencies, so
16:53
Speaker 1: they end up looking for other options and somehow or
16:55
Speaker 1: another are connected with Tara Lee.
16:58
Speaker 2: In this process. I mean, you're putting your whole life
17:01
Speaker 2: out there. If you look at adoption agencies online, on
17:04
Speaker 2: a lot of them, you can just scroll through these
17:06
Speaker 2: prospective parents and it's like this whole profile, photos of
17:11
Speaker 2: you and your partner, if you have one, your home,
17:14
Speaker 2: your extended family, talking all about your lifestyle and the
17:18
Speaker 2: lifestyle that this child would have if you pick them.
17:20
Speaker 2: I mean, you're putting it all out there. Oh yeah, absolutely,
17:24
Speaker 2: it's a very vulnerable thing. There's pictures of you, of
17:27
Speaker 2: your partner, There's questionnaires you have to answer about what
17:31
Speaker 2: the life would be like for this kid. And I
17:33
Speaker 2: think that's really important to remember because Tara, running this
17:37
Speaker 2: sort of adoption agency, had access to all of these
17:40
Speaker 2: booklets that had so much information about people and what
17:43
Speaker 2: they were looking for. She would even have them fill
17:45
Speaker 2: out questions of like what would be the ideal scenario
17:49
Speaker 2: for you as far as like being matched with a
17:51
Speaker 2: birth parent? She asked Amber, and Amber wanted to detail
17:54
Speaker 2: and said, well, I mean, I'm open to whatever, but
17:56
Speaker 2: you know, it would be great if it were a
17:58
Speaker 2: young woman who was still in school and had big
18:01
Speaker 2: hopes and dreams for her life and just didn't want
18:03
Speaker 2: to become a parent. Right then this is the kind
18:06
Speaker 2: of person she's hoping to help by adopting from them.
18:10
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, She's.
18:11
Speaker 1: Like, that would be my sort of if I had
18:13
Speaker 1: to write my perfect birth parent match, that would be it.
18:17
Speaker 1: And then lo and behold. You know, weeks later, Tara
18:20
Speaker 1: comes back to her and says, can you even believe it?
18:23
Speaker 1: There's a young woman, she's a teenager, and because of that,
18:27
Speaker 1: you won't have any access or contact with her, you'll
18:30
Speaker 1: only go through me. She's pregnant. You know, she'd like
18:33
Speaker 1: to have the baby and place her child with someone
18:36
Speaker 1: who wants a kid but can't have one. And I
18:39
Speaker 1: gave her your booklet She Loves You. So Amber was
18:42
Speaker 1: really excited. She started to again buy baby clothes. She
18:45
Speaker 1: started to imagine what her life would be like as
18:47
Speaker 1: a mother. But as Jessica will call her, Jessica's due
18:51
Speaker 1: date approached, all these issues started to arise. Tara would
18:54
Speaker 1: text her things like, well, now Jessica's parents are upset
18:59
Speaker 1: because they want to adopt the baby, but Jessica still
19:02
Speaker 1: wants you to adopt her child. So we're going to
19:04
Speaker 1: keep moving forward. We want to let you know, like
19:06
Speaker 1: you know, there's some risks. So she started to kind
19:09
Speaker 1: of prep her in that way. So right before you
19:11
Speaker 1: know her due date, Amber like goes to Michigan and
19:15
Speaker 1: you know, has a crib, is so ready, has the
19:18
Speaker 1: car seat, everything, and then nothing. She doesn't hear from
19:22
Speaker 1: Tara what's going on. Then Tara, you know, calls her
19:26
Speaker 1: in a panic and is like, oh my gosh, Jessica's
19:28
Speaker 1: gone missing. We don't know what's going on. She might
19:31
Speaker 1: be in danger, she might be wandering the streets of Detroit.
19:34
Speaker 1: Of course, Amber is in a panic about this, and
19:36
Speaker 1: eventually Tara's just like, I don't know. She basically ghosted us.
19:40
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on. So sorry, it's not
19:42
Speaker 1: going to work out.
19:43
Speaker 2: And had Amber been paying for Jessica's pre needle care.
19:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, So how it worked was when prospective adoptive parents
19:52
Speaker 1: signed up with Tara, they had to immediately pay her
19:56
Speaker 1: her fee for her services, as well as fee for
20:00
Speaker 1: the birth parent, and that could range depending on how
20:03
Speaker 1: far along they were in their pregnancy. That amount was different,
20:07
Speaker 1: but a lot of people estimated and you know, in total,
20:09
Speaker 1: it was about twenty thousand dollars that they would hand
20:11
Speaker 1: over to Tara, which honestly felt like a bit of
20:14
Speaker 1: a deal because, as you mentioned, the average price is
20:17
Speaker 1: more around forty thousand dollars and Tara's services were about
20:21
Speaker 1: half of that, so it was more affordable. Even though
20:26
Speaker 1: a lot of these people they had saved up for
20:28
Speaker 1: years to have that amount of money to be able
20:32
Speaker 1: to hand over to Tara, and it wasn't like they
20:33
Speaker 1: had a lot more money if something didn't work out
20:36
Speaker 1: to try again. Now, Tara did say that if something
20:39
Speaker 1: falls through with the match, you'll get some of this
20:42
Speaker 1: money refunded or whatever we haven't spent you can use
20:46
Speaker 1: toward an additional match.
20:48
Speaker 3: Right.
20:48
Speaker 1: So for Amber, though, you know obviously this is like heartbreaking,
20:52
Speaker 1: she ends up going home. She sort of needs a
20:56
Speaker 1: minute before she can try to pursue adoption again after this.
21:00
Speaker 2: So she went all the way to Michigan, all the
21:03
Speaker 2: way because I remember working on this, I don't remember
21:05
Speaker 2: this specific interview. So she goes all the way to Michigan,
21:09
Speaker 2: and that's when Tara chooses to tell her Jessica is
21:13
Speaker 2: no longer interested.
21:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jessica has ghosted us, right, which she might be
21:17
Speaker 1: in danger, the baby might be in danger. It's all
21:20
Speaker 1: of these unknowns, and Amber didn't really get any answers
21:24
Speaker 1: about that. It just was over. So then she goes home.
21:26
Speaker 1: She's heartbroken. She said, for years after this she would
21:30
Speaker 1: think about Jessica and about the baby and like wonder
21:34
Speaker 1: what they were doing and if they were okay, and
21:36
Speaker 1: like hope that they were doing well. She would find
21:39
Speaker 1: out years later that Jessica never existed, never existed. So
21:45
Speaker 1: Tara meets Amber says here's what this person is looking for.
21:48
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna like make up a completely fabricated person
21:53
Speaker 1: to match that, and then I'm going to string her
21:56
Speaker 1: along for nine months or however many months had ended up,
22:00
Speaker 1: take twenty thousand dollars and just leave. Yeah, it's like terrible.
22:05
Speaker 1: I mean, also, just imagine if you're amber in that situation.
22:09
Speaker 1: Not only are your own hopes built up for this,
22:14
Speaker 1: but you're probably already understanding that there is some chance
22:20
Speaker 1: that any birth mother will decide at the final hour
22:24
Speaker 1: to not place their baby for adoption and to raise
22:28
Speaker 1: that baby themselves, and that is their right for a
22:30
Speaker 1: certain amount of time, and so you're legal even after
22:32
Speaker 1: the baby is born for like three days or something.
22:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can change your mind, and that's a good
22:37
Speaker 2: thing that that's in place. But as someone who's trying
22:40
Speaker 2: to adopt, it's still scary. Oh yeah, it's still emotional,
22:44
Speaker 2: and so you're already battling that and then to find
22:46
Speaker 2: out that none.
22:48
Speaker 3: Of it was true.
22:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, And because of those very real risks with adoption,
22:54
Speaker 1: especially when a person is choosing to place a child
22:58
Speaker 1: that they're giving birth to a for adoption, of course
23:01
Speaker 1: their rights really need to be paramount here. So if
23:05
Speaker 1: they give birth and then they decide no, I actually
23:07
Speaker 1: I want to raise this kid. They have every right
23:10
Speaker 1: in the world to make that decision, and they should.
23:12
Speaker 1: But because there is that emotional risk, that financial risk
23:15
Speaker 1: for people going through the adoption process. As perspective adoptive parents,
23:20
Speaker 1: a lot of states have very strict rules about agencies
23:23
Speaker 1: and what they have to offer birth parents perspective of
23:26
Speaker 1: birth parents, like counseling, they have to have a certain
23:31
Speaker 1: amount of counseling before they are even allowed to say yes,
23:35
Speaker 1: I would like to place my child up for adoption.
23:38
Speaker 1: You can never really make sure, but to try to
23:42
Speaker 1: safeguard against this right.
23:43
Speaker 2: To safeguard against this as much as you can. And
23:46
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that someone shouldn't change their mind at
23:48
Speaker 2: the last minute if that's what they want to do.
23:50
Speaker 2: But there's an emotional toll that takes place if for
23:53
Speaker 2: several months you've been telling someone that they'll potentially be
23:56
Speaker 2: the adopted family.
23:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then Tara, she said that she was a
24:00
Speaker 1: counselor and that she was providing counseling services to birth
24:04
Speaker 1: parents that she worked with, which will come out as
24:07
Speaker 1: not true. I want to talk about one other couple
24:18
Speaker 1: because I just really liked them a lot.
24:20
Speaker 3: I think I know which cole you're talking.
24:22
Speaker 1: About, Teresa and Mike Mathene. So there was a podcast
24:27
Speaker 1: that I thought was really well done that the Binge
24:29
Speaker 1: just put out this year, Baby Broker, and I noticed
24:33
Speaker 1: that Teresa and Mike also spoke with them. One of
24:36
Speaker 1: the things that Teresa told us, which Amber also told us,
24:40
Speaker 1: it sounds like Tara Lee had this sort of phrase
24:45
Speaker 1: or group of phrases that she would use to describe
24:48
Speaker 1: herself when she met perspective adoptive parents, and she would
24:53
Speaker 1: say something along the lines of to everybody, you know,
24:57
Speaker 1: I cuss like a trucker, I'm covered in tattoo, I've
25:00
Speaker 1: survived a heart attack, I've been shot at. But I
25:03
Speaker 1: just love my work. I love these birth moms.
25:06
Speaker 3: You know.
25:06
Speaker 1: I'm their sister, I'm their mother, I'm their chauffeur, I'm
25:09
Speaker 1: their best friend. I'm changing diapers, I'm driving people to appointments.
25:14
Speaker 1: And multiple people said that this sort of vibe that
25:18
Speaker 1: she put out it was kind of chaotic, but it
25:21
Speaker 1: also communicated that she cared a lot. She was messy,
25:25
Speaker 1: she was chaotic, but she was all heart, like her
25:29
Speaker 1: heart was in the right place. She cared so much
25:32
Speaker 1: she was sort of stretching herself thin. Yeah, if I
25:35
Speaker 1: remember correctly. One thing that Tara did with everyone is
25:40
Speaker 1: she was in pretty constant communication texts and phone calls.
25:44
Speaker 1: It was a very became a very casual and friendly,
25:49
Speaker 1: frequent dialogue between her and these prospective parents. There was
25:52
Speaker 1: not like, Okay, a channel you go through, right, well,
25:56
Speaker 1: all communication went through Tara, and it sounds like she
26:01
Speaker 1: was very communicative. Sometimes after she was paid a big
26:05
Speaker 1: chunk of money and there were like important questions that
26:08
Speaker 1: people needed answer, she would sort of not be as
26:10
Speaker 1: communicative for a while, you know. Like with Mike and Teresa,
26:14
Speaker 1: they had been very similar kind of story to a
26:17
Speaker 1: lot of people, and that they signed up with an agency,
26:20
Speaker 1: were waiting for eighteen months without any news. They ended
26:24
Speaker 1: up meeting this woman in South Carolina who like went
26:27
Speaker 1: to Teresa's dad's church, like very trusted kind of They
26:32
Speaker 1: felt really comfortable with her. She has a referral service,
26:36
Speaker 1: so they pay like twenty five hundred dollars just to
26:38
Speaker 1: be part of her referral service. That woman was in
26:42
Speaker 1: contact with Tara didn't know we don't think there's no
26:46
Speaker 1: evidence that she knew what Tara was doing, but she
26:49
Speaker 1: would often send prospective adoptive parents to Tara. So that's
26:53
Speaker 1: how they got in contact with Tara. Within a week,
26:56
Speaker 1: they get a call. Tara says, I've already shown your
26:59
Speaker 1: book to a prospective adoptive parent and she loves you
27:04
Speaker 1: and she wants to place with you. So of course
27:06
Speaker 1: they're freaking out. They're so excited, and then Tara says,
27:09
Speaker 1: I'm gonna patch her in right now. So then they're
27:12
Speaker 1: just on the phone with her right then it's just
27:14
Speaker 1: happening so fast, and on the phone with them, Tara
27:17
Speaker 1: asks this birth mom, so what do you think do
27:20
Speaker 1: you want to place your kid with Teresa?
27:22
Speaker 3: And Mike? Okay? That I mean?
27:24
Speaker 2: And you know what, though, we see this so often
27:27
Speaker 2: where in hindsight you're like, well that's bananas, there's no
27:31
Speaker 2: way that could be real. But in the moment, people
27:34
Speaker 2: get really caught up. We all do in, you know,
27:38
Speaker 2: hoping that something is real. And also, these people had
27:42
Speaker 2: a legitimate referral service connect them to Tara. Yeah, sounds
27:46
Speaker 2: like they had some other connection to the referral service.
27:49
Speaker 2: It's like, who would think who totally. Plus that means
27:52
Speaker 2: that the person she's patching in is also in on it.
27:56
Speaker 2: It's a good question, right, So in Mike said, I'm
28:00
Speaker 2: the kind of guy that reads every contract no matter what,
28:03
Speaker 2: like my loyal will read it, but I'm also reading it.
28:06
Speaker 2: But in this moment, we just were so excited about
28:09
Speaker 2: the prospect and it seemed like so like you got
28:12
Speaker 2: to act now. So they were just like great, and
28:16
Speaker 2: the birth mom said, yeah, I really liked them, let's
28:18
Speaker 2: do it.
28:18
Speaker 3: Okay. So then they hang up.
28:20
Speaker 1: Tara immediately calls back and is like, I need you
28:22
Speaker 1: to send me thirteen thousand dollars immediately to secure this thing.
28:25
Speaker 1: So they do without a contract. You know. So this
28:29
Speaker 1: was September, the end of September twenty eighteen, and they're
28:33
Speaker 1: told the babies do next month, so now you have
28:37
Speaker 1: to like, okay, let's get ready quickly. But things are
28:41
Speaker 1: immediately a little strange. They're hard, having a really hard
28:45
Speaker 1: time getting an exact due.
28:47
Speaker 3: Date from Tara. She's sort of wishy washy.
28:50
Speaker 1: She finally does send a contract, but it's sort of
28:53
Speaker 1: like not well written.
28:54
Speaker 3: They're like okay.
28:55
Speaker 1: She puts them on a group text with the birth
28:58
Speaker 1: mom and says, you know, just to be respectful. I
29:02
Speaker 1: only want you to communicate with her through this group
29:04
Speaker 1: text so that if anything gets weird, I can be
29:07
Speaker 1: like the person that helps it along. She's like, I
29:10
Speaker 1: have a master's in social work, and they're like, okay,
29:12
Speaker 1: that makes sense. That totally makes sense. Eight thousand of
29:15
Speaker 1: the thirteen thousand dollars is for birth parent expenses, which
29:19
Speaker 1: should be going to the birth parents, rent food, you know,
29:23
Speaker 1: transportation to doctor's offices, any medical bills. Those are all
29:27
Speaker 1: legal things for them to pay. It was based on
29:31
Speaker 1: her bills. It was like more than enough, almost double
29:33
Speaker 1: what she would need. But they were like great, you know,
29:36
Speaker 1: in case she needs something random, like we want her
29:39
Speaker 1: to be taken care of. So they finally get a date.
29:42
Speaker 1: It's going to be end of October. They're in Georgia.
29:46
Speaker 1: They pack up their car. They're going to drive to
29:48
Speaker 1: Detroit so that they can bring the baby back with
29:51
Speaker 1: like you know, in the car with the car seat everything.
29:54
Speaker 1: And the day before they leave, they get an email
29:58
Speaker 1: like from another agency that's sort of ominous and says
30:01
Speaker 1: something like are any of our parents working with Tara Lee?
30:04
Speaker 1: Like contact us immediately. Long story short, they end up
30:08
Speaker 1: getting contact with some attorneys who were working with Tara
30:13
Speaker 1: but didn't realize what was going on. But they said, look,
30:17
Speaker 1: the FBI just contacted us and they're investigating Tera Lee.
30:22
Speaker 1: You can't tell anyone about this. So Teresa and Mike
30:27
Speaker 1: are just devastated, freaking out, like, we're getting ready to
30:31
Speaker 1: drive to Detroit and you're telling me that she is
30:35
Speaker 1: scamming people. What's going on? Like, what should we do?
30:39
Speaker 1: And Tanya the lawyer said, look, we're pretty sure your
30:43
Speaker 1: adoption is real. We're pretty sure the birth mom you've
30:46
Speaker 1: been talking to is a real person and is pregnant
30:50
Speaker 1: and is in Detroit and does want to place her
30:53
Speaker 1: child for adoption. So you should probably go. But you
30:58
Speaker 1: can't tell Tara anything. In fact, if you even let
31:01
Speaker 1: it slip that you're like suspicious of her, or do
31:05
Speaker 1: anything that it messes up the FBI investigation, you could
31:08
Speaker 1: be criminally charged. Oh my gosh, for interfering with an
31:11
Speaker 1: FBI investigation.
31:13
Speaker 3: Wow.
31:14
Speaker 2: So they're in Georgia packing up their car to go
31:16
Speaker 2: to Michigan. I don't know if that for me road
31:19
Speaker 2: trip would be silent or if I would be talking
31:21
Speaker 2: NonStop because you're so hopeful, but now you're more nervous
31:24
Speaker 2: than ever, and you have this added fear of messing
31:27
Speaker 2: up the investigation. I mean, I assume they're still texting
31:30
Speaker 2: with Tara and this supposed birth mother. Yeah, I mean
31:35
Speaker 2: it had to be somewhat reassuring that Tanya said that
31:39
Speaker 2: she thought things were real. That would be good to
31:41
Speaker 2: hear in the midst of hearing something else like that.
31:43
Speaker 3: Yeah.
31:43
Speaker 1: I think it's the only reason they went right with
31:45
Speaker 1: that hope, because they were hearing stories already. Tanya and Talia,
31:49
Speaker 1: the other attorney, they had an agency together. They had
31:53
Speaker 1: started to hear all these stories from different people, I
31:55
Speaker 1: mean horror stories of fake birth parents or Tarah apparently
32:00
Speaker 1: made up a story with someone, you know, a fake
32:03
Speaker 1: birth parent that she had fabricated, and then what she
32:06
Speaker 1: told the perspective adoptive parent was, oh my gosh, she
32:09
Speaker 1: was shot and killed and so is the fetus, just
32:13
Speaker 1: like concocting these like traumatic stories. She also she did
32:18
Speaker 1: work with some people that were actually pregnant, but then
32:20
Speaker 1: she would often try to match them with like three
32:23
Speaker 1: four more families because every time she got a new
32:26
Speaker 1: family on board, she got that match fee, so that
32:29
Speaker 1: was like five six seven thousand dollars in her pocket immediately,
32:33
Speaker 1: and then she would try to get that match to
32:35
Speaker 1: fail so that then she could match the pregnant person
32:38
Speaker 1: again with a different family.
32:39
Speaker 3: And this is so exploitative of the birth mother.
32:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you're explaining these perspective adoptive parents, but
32:45
Speaker 2: you also have this birth mother who thinks that you're
32:48
Speaker 2: going to help her and find the right person, and
32:51
Speaker 2: you're just like raking in cash using her trauma.
32:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, for money, And Mike and Teresa are about to
32:59
Speaker 1: learn a lot lot more about that. They do go
33:02
Speaker 1: to Michigan. They end up meeting Tara and the birth
33:06
Speaker 1: parents mom and dad at Texas Roadhouse for a meal
33:10
Speaker 1: because Tara told them that that was the birth mom's
33:12
Speaker 1: favorite restaurant. Spoiler alert, it was not. Tara liked the restaurant.
33:19
Speaker 3: No disrespect to Texas Roadhouse, but the lies. Yeah.
33:23
Speaker 1: So you know, Teresa and Mike at this point are
33:26
Speaker 1: sitting there feeling all this intensity. They see the birth
33:30
Speaker 1: mom and she's very pregnant, and so that's like, okay,
33:34
Speaker 1: it's a good sign. But Tara shows up and they're
33:37
Speaker 1: describing her as like, you know, full Lululemon sweatsuit, nails done,
33:42
Speaker 1: Prada glasses, Rolex watch, lou Vitan bag. She sort of
33:47
Speaker 1: tries to intervene. Anytime Teresa and Mike try to actually
33:50
Speaker 1: speak with the birth parents, Tarah kind of interjects and
33:55
Speaker 1: tries to shut that communication down. So she's actively trying
33:59
Speaker 1: to get them to not communicate with each other sort of.
34:02
Speaker 1: And then Tara also, I love this little tidbit. She
34:06
Speaker 1: orders food to go and it's like clear that Mike
34:08
Speaker 1: and Teresa are going.
34:09
Speaker 3: To pay for the meal, so shameless, shameless.
34:12
Speaker 1: They think that Tara's plan all along was to sort
34:14
Speaker 1: of have this fail and for them to leave. But
34:17
Speaker 1: what happened while they were there is that the birth
34:20
Speaker 1: mom actually ends up passing not at Texas roadhouse. They leave,
34:24
Speaker 1: but like a couple days later, she ends up passing
34:27
Speaker 1: out and has to go to the hospital and what
34:29
Speaker 1: comes out is that she has proclampsia. And the reason
34:34
Speaker 1: this hasn't been caught or on anyone's radar is that
34:38
Speaker 1: she hasn't been going to doctor's appointments because Tara is
34:41
Speaker 1: not actually doing anything for her. She needs new tires
34:45
Speaker 1: for her car. She keeps telling Tara that, and Teresa
34:48
Speaker 1: and Mike hurt her kind of mention that at the
34:51
Speaker 1: dinner and wondered why she didn't have tires for her
34:54
Speaker 1: car when they'd given like eight thousand dollars that was
34:57
Speaker 1: supposed to go directly to anything the birth mom needed.
35:00
Speaker 1: Her power got shut off on her house, and Tara
35:04
Speaker 1: insisted that she give birth to the hospital that was
35:06
Speaker 1: sixty miles from where she was living. And clear that
35:10
Speaker 1: Tara was not actually that involved. She wasn't helping her
35:12
Speaker 1: get to doctor's appointments, she wasn't taking care of her,
35:15
Speaker 1: was not giving her the money that Mike and Teresa
35:18
Speaker 1: had given to Tara to help her.
35:21
Speaker 2: It's terrible. I mean, that's a life threatening condition. It's
35:24
Speaker 2: like pregnancy is this quote, you know, routine health event,
35:28
Speaker 2: but there is so much danger and that is why
35:31
Speaker 2: this pringnatle care is so important and just also sad
35:35
Speaker 2: to think of what this person was already going through
35:38
Speaker 2: and then to just pile on this greed.
35:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, So because of that, Mike and Teresa end up
35:46
Speaker 1: in a situation where they are in the hospital. There's
35:49
Speaker 1: a day where Tara's somehow not around, and they end
35:52
Speaker 1: up communicating with the birth parents and get along well.
35:56
Speaker 1: And it turns out that the birth parents realized Tara
36:00
Speaker 1: had been lying to them and was saying that my
36:02
Speaker 1: COUNDRIESA just haven't paid. They just won't pay. They won't
36:05
Speaker 1: pay her expenses. So that's why she didn't want them
36:07
Speaker 1: to speak at dinner. Yeah, okay, the adoption does end
36:11
Speaker 1: up going through. It's one of the few sort of
36:13
Speaker 1: happy stories in everything that Tara Lee was involved with
36:18
Speaker 1: with this, and they're on good terms with their birth
36:20
Speaker 1: parents to this day, which is really cool. That is cool,
36:24
Speaker 1: but obviously a very stressful thing to go through. So
36:28
Speaker 1: Tara Lee, her home was you know rated, they had
36:33
Speaker 1: a search warrant. She ended up you know, getting arrested.
36:37
Speaker 1: She was charged with multiple counts of wire fraud. There
36:41
Speaker 1: was another person who was also charged, I think with
36:44
Speaker 1: three counts of wirefraud, who was a woman who was
36:46
Speaker 1: working with her and posing as a birth mom and
36:49
Speaker 1: like pretending to be all these other people. And in
36:53
Speaker 1: twenty twenty she was convicted. She ended up posting bail,
36:57
Speaker 1: but then violated her terms multiple times. She wasn't supposed
37:01
Speaker 1: to use a cell phone and there were pictures of
37:03
Speaker 1: her using a cell phone, so she ended up getting
37:05
Speaker 1: arrested and the investigation revealed that she basically stole defrauded
37:12
Speaker 1: people of two point one million dollars from twenty fourteen
37:17
Speaker 1: to twenty eighteen, and she was convicted and sentenced to
37:24
Speaker 1: I think it was one hundred and twenty one months
37:26
Speaker 1: in prison, So she was sentenced to about ten years,
37:28
Speaker 1: which was actually the maximum that the judge could give
37:31
Speaker 1: her for her plea deal. She ended up pleading guilty
37:34
Speaker 1: to like three counts of wire fraud, but the judge
37:37
Speaker 1: took this very seriously. A bunch of people showed up
37:40
Speaker 1: and he let everybody give their victim impact statements and
37:45
Speaker 1: then gave her the maximum sentence. Additionally, he said that
37:49
Speaker 1: she would have to read and record all the victim
37:53
Speaker 1: impact statements once she was incarcerated as part of her punishment.
37:58
Speaker 3: I like that.
37:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that. They said that over one hundred
38:02
Speaker 1: and sixty couples were affected by her actions. So she
38:06
Speaker 1: was supposed to be released in twenty seven but actually
38:10
Speaker 1: at the beginning of this year, she was moved from
38:12
Speaker 1: a federal prison in Alabama to a halfway house, so
38:16
Speaker 1: she's still being monitored, but she's no longer in a
38:19
Speaker 1: federal prison, and I think a lot of the victims
38:23
Speaker 1: were pretty unhappy about that. Yeah.
38:25
Speaker 2: I mean she put people's lives in danger. In the
38:28
Speaker 2: case of the birth mother you were speaking about that
38:31
Speaker 2: never got the preteal care that she needed. Yeah, and
38:35
Speaker 2: she also robbed people of money they had set aside
38:39
Speaker 2: to start their family. That you can't just snap your
38:41
Speaker 2: fingers and come up with that again.
38:43
Speaker 1: No, And it's like the time to get over that trauma,
38:46
Speaker 1: plus having to save up money again, it was really
38:49
Speaker 1: negatively impactful for a lot of people.
38:52
Speaker 2: What I think about a lot now with this story
38:54
Speaker 2: is Tara is a mother. Yeah, It's like she knows
38:58
Speaker 2: what that feels like to want a child, to have
39:01
Speaker 2: a child, to be pregnant. I don't know how you
39:05
Speaker 2: can separate your own experience from others. She just drew
39:10
Speaker 2: this line like, well, I'm fine if it happens to them,
39:13
Speaker 2: even though I went through and I know how hard
39:15
Speaker 2: pregnancy is.
39:16
Speaker 1: It's like, really, how could you do that? It's very
39:19
Speaker 1: hard to believe, very hard to understand. I remember when
39:22
Speaker 1: we spoke with the FBI to investigators, they talked about
39:26
Speaker 1: this moment when they interviewed her, and you know, this
39:29
Speaker 1: is their perception, but they said something like it was
39:33
Speaker 1: very memorable because she was going through this range of emotions.
39:38
Speaker 1: She would tell us something and she would like start
39:40
Speaker 1: kind of crying, and it was clear that we weren't
39:42
Speaker 1: really buying it or reacting, and then she would switch
39:45
Speaker 1: and then like she would be like more like mousey
39:48
Speaker 1: and afraid, and then she would switch and she would
39:51
Speaker 1: be kind of like aggressive and angry. Their read of
39:53
Speaker 1: it was she was trying to manipulate the situation and
39:57
Speaker 1: figure out what would convince them to believe her.
40:01
Speaker 3: And that's what she'd been doing this entire time.
40:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I remember that we reached out to her
40:08
Speaker 2: family as well, and no one would speak with us.
40:11
Speaker 2: That's a perspective I'm always so curious about in these situations.
40:15
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe they really didn't know what she was doing,
40:19
Speaker 2: but what would that feel like to know that someone
40:22
Speaker 2: super close to you, or the mother of your children
40:26
Speaker 2: had been treating other women like that? It's astounding. And
40:30
Speaker 2: to hear that she's already been released to a halfway
40:33
Speaker 2: house I think in Detroit. Hmm, yeah, so now she's
40:38
Speaker 2: much closer to home, you think about the price these
40:40
Speaker 2: people paid and how it changed our lives forever. Yeah,
40:43
Speaker 2: and you just have to wonder is that justice?
40:45
Speaker 3: I don't know.
40:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So I have a quick recommendation. It's not
40:51
Speaker 1: true crime. So we'll see if people like it. If
40:54
Speaker 1: you don't, yell at me, tell me that you only
40:57
Speaker 1: want true crime recommendations. But it started watching this because
41:01
Speaker 1: multiple people had recommended it to me, which I did
41:04
Speaker 1: not take personally. You'll see what I mean. It's called
41:08
Speaker 1: Couples Therapy. Okay, but have you watched this?
41:11
Speaker 3: No? Okay.
41:12
Speaker 1: I think it took me a while to watch it
41:14
Speaker 1: because I was like, what is this? It's a docu
41:16
Speaker 1: series and it is so fascinating. It is real people,
41:21
Speaker 1: real couples in a couple's therapy office, and you're seeing
41:27
Speaker 1: their their therapy sessions.
41:28
Speaker 2: Is it over the course of years or months or
41:31
Speaker 2: what is the timeline?
41:32
Speaker 3: Do you know?
41:33
Speaker 1: Okay? I think it's because I looked it up afterward.
41:35
Speaker 1: They're like looking for couples for the new season. I'm
41:38
Speaker 1: not going to do it just they film it in
41:41
Speaker 1: New York. It's twenty free sessions. This therapist is really
41:45
Speaker 1: good and at first I was like why would anyone
41:48
Speaker 1: sign up for this? Probably like you get twenty free
41:50
Speaker 1: sessions of free therapy with a very good psychoanalyst is
41:55
Speaker 1: what the type of therapist that she is. And it's
41:59
Speaker 1: filmed really really like nicely. In the episode, they sort
42:02
Speaker 1: of weave in like multiple couples. I'm on the first season.
42:05
Speaker 1: Apparently there's four the first season. There's multiple couples that
42:09
Speaker 1: you're following over the course of you know, twenty sessions
42:12
Speaker 1: or something, and it's just so interesting to see, you know,
42:19
Speaker 1: like every couple, the fights that they get in, the
42:22
Speaker 1: patterns that the things that they're struggling with. Sometimes you're like,
42:25
Speaker 1: oh God, that's so stupid, and then sometimes you're like,
42:27
Speaker 1: oh that's so heartbreaking, and you start to feel for
42:30
Speaker 1: these people.
42:30
Speaker 2: And well I heard that, you like, or maybe I
42:33
Speaker 2: saw it or read it. I don't I don't remember.
42:36
Speaker 2: A couple's therapist was talking about how long term couples
42:40
Speaker 2: have the same three fights. They're disguised as other things,
42:43
Speaker 2: but they're the same three fights.
42:45
Speaker 1: H Yeah, it's interesting. You can really start to see
42:50
Speaker 1: those dynamics at play. And I just also really like
42:54
Speaker 1: the therapist. I think it's interesting to see her and
42:57
Speaker 1: where her brain goes, and the advice and the questions
43:00
Speaker 1: that she asked these couples. I didn't think that I
43:03
Speaker 1: would be as interested in it, but I'm very interested
43:05
Speaker 1: in it.
43:06
Speaker 2: Well, I would personally love to do that because my
43:08
Speaker 2: husband puts peanut butter in the refrigerator and this is
43:12
Speaker 2: I can't understand it.
43:14
Speaker 1: How committed are you to this marriage?
43:15
Speaker 3: I don't know anymore.
43:17
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like ten plus years bad just removed. Okay,
43:21
Speaker 2: why you know? It's like you want it to be
43:22
Speaker 2: so unspreadable that the sandwich is a disaster, Like what
43:27
Speaker 2: is what is the end goal?
43:28
Speaker 1: I like shredded bread, shredded bread. Yeah, okay, well yeah
43:32
Speaker 1: check it out. Let me know what you think of it. Yeah,
43:34
Speaker 1: I would love to That's our episode for today. Thanks
43:37
Speaker 1: so much for listening. See you next week. If you
43:41
Speaker 1: have a story for us, we would love to hear it.
43:43
Speaker 1: Our email is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com, or
43:46
Speaker 1: you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife podcast
43:49
Speaker 1: or a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast. This has
43:51
Speaker 1: been an exactly Right production hosted and produced by me
43:55
Speaker 1: Hannah Smith and me Patia Eating. Our producers are Tom
43:58
Speaker 1: Briefogel and Alexis Amoro. This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.
44:02
Speaker 3: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
44:05
Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport, artwork.
44:08
Speaker 3: By Vanessa Lilac.
44:09
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.