Latest / Off The Shelf With Phil and Dave- A Movie Review Podcast / 2000's Reindeer Games

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2000's Reindeer Games · Off The Shelf With Phil and Dave- A Movie Review Podcast

0:00
But this is future Dave and future Phil coming back to close
0:03
the loop. I'm currently abroad while I'm.
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Still a man to me. Actually, man.
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Barely traveling as we speak, so we have a couple re releases
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coming your way. And just to play it safe, I'm
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going to ensure that our audience gets at least one
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classic Christmas movie. Therefore, we are collectively
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Phil and I. He's in on this too.
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I'm in on the rerelease, I'm not in on the classic.
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Ohhh, I'm not giving that to you.
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It is with Phil's favorite actor, Ben Affleck.
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Reindeer Games? Yes Sir.
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We're bringing Affleck off the shelf for one last go round with
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Charlie's and Sanitise. Great film and Dennis Farina.
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Dennis Farina. Yeah, absolutely.
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So you're in for a real treat. That's right.
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We were so excited with the ice play that happened in Four
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Brothers. We just needed to get back on
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the ice. Yes, with reindeer games.
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So enjoy this episode, we'll have a new one dropping for you
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next week. Talk to you then, bye.
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Bye. Here we are coming off.
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Of Dave's shelf. The year 2000s Reindeer Games.
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Right on time, my friend. How are things this week and
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how's the you're shaping up for? You so far so good, Phil.
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No complaints. There's no on the ground.
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All you need. And so we have a few Santas. 5.
1:40
5 needs to be 5. Clear that up.
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Right now there needs to be 5 Santas, and by the end we'll
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explain that to you. If you didn't.
1:48
I got it. Yeah.
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So will the movie. Yeah, well, it doesn't.
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Very good job of explaining everything that's going on, I
1:55
would say to a fault. Interesting about that.
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And this movie has a few of those.
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Phil, first tell me. Yeah, I'll throw it back to you.
2:04
Then I'll get into my history with her.
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But I'm really curious to know how many times you've seen
2:08
Reindeer Games and if it's actually on your.
2:10
Shelf This is the second time I've seen this movie.
2:14
OK, as you know, certainly around this era, Thousand 2003
2:20
is my band sweet spot. Yeah, yeah.
2:24
The director, John Frankenheimer, is not a long
2:26
history of quality. Well, I shouldn't say a long
2:29
history, but there's quality interspersed in his filmography.
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OK. The writer, this guy named Aaron
2:35
Krueger, had really pissed me off OHS prior, which we'll get
2:39
into hear it. There were enough in the
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benefit. Obviously, it was enough to get
2:43
excited. Charlize.
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Early Charlize. I would assume it's early
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Charlie. Why the career she took?
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It must be an early. One do a 20 year old Phil was
2:53
enough reasons to watch the movie.
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I hated it then. Theatre.
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No, no, no, no. This is a rental.
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I was working at the video store by then OK and just couldn't
3:04
connect the dots on it I thought.
3:06
It's not for everyone. Didn't really get what I wanted
3:09
out of it. I did, however, really enjoy the
3:11
trailer the way that it's cut and put together.
3:13
Misleading trailer be. Yeah.
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I was like, I can get into this. Yeah.
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I thought Affleck was in that same sweet spot in that,
3:20
particularly around how he really can't wait to get some
3:22
hot chocolate and some pecan pie in which he pie delivers that.
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I was like, I can get into this. And the movie was a bit of a let
3:29
down all the way back then and today it has not improved
3:34
whatsoever in It's Like a Fine Wine.
3:36
We did ourselves and the listeners a favor this week and
3:39
chose to watch the directors cut.
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We gotta stop doing that. That's it, no more.
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I don't care what it was all I could find.
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To be fair, we will. Have to go and actually get you
3:50
an actual copy. I will pay money if you don't
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have to watch because if you're watching director, I have to
3:56
watch this exactly. Sorry.
3:58
Directors cut or extended cut? Directors cut.
4:00
To imply that the director had something to do with it.
4:01
Extended cut sometimes, particularly around the era of
4:04
the DVD, which this was, and that sort of early DVD sweet
4:07
spot, it was a marketing ploy. We just sort of put the stuff
4:11
back in. Doesn't always necessarily
4:12
reflect the director's vision. Got you, Got you got so.
4:16
This may have been just the extended cut, I can't explain.
4:19
I do know that it was longer than it needed to be and longer
4:23
than it was 23 years ago when I watched it.
4:26
Yes. I would agree.
4:27
I think we've learned our lesson with the extended.
4:29
I would hope so. Directors cut.
4:31
I would say maybe if directors cut, there's a little bit of
4:34
trust in there. Sure.
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I mean, Ridley Scott's made a career out of it.
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So too is Oliver Stone. But really Scott in particular,
4:40
he releases The Kingdom of Heaven and his directors cut is
4:44
something like an hour and 15 minutes more than that or
4:46
something like that. Napoleon League, Justice League,
4:49
another one, the Napoleon movie that just came out is already
4:51
like 2 1/2. And he says, well, there's a
4:53
four and a half hour directors cut that's coming to Apple
4:56
eventually. Something like Blade Runner has
4:58
four or five different cuts. What differentiates between
5:01
extended cut for marketing purposes, directors cut for
5:03
visionary purposes? It's a bit murky, but there are
5:05
a number of directors that like to revisit.
5:07
I will say from a person who has done a lot of editing in the
5:10
last two years, not only audio, but I've done a lot of video, as
5:15
you know. Absolutely.
5:16
And I've learned a lot. I came in to school with no
5:18
experience whatsoever editing video.
5:21
And let me tell you, it's tough. Yeah.
5:23
To pick and choose what doesn't make it in.
5:27
Sure. Because as a young,
5:28
inexperienced visionary, you want it all.
5:32
You want all your stuff perfect. You want it in there and you
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gotta cut and merciless 80% like we did 1.
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And I feel like it's pretty seamless, flows good.
5:43
We thought we had hit that mark. Yep, still not enough.
5:46
So we clearly, well, I'm still in school.
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This was clearly learning to do. That's right.
5:50
There's still there's nothing left.
5:51
I just leave. I got it, folks.
5:53
Yeah, so I feel with these movies like, well, we really
5:56
want this in and it's a way to market it and sell it.
5:59
But if the movie is already shitty, you haven't cut out the
6:03
good stuff and left in the shitty.
6:06
Stuff that's a very poor choice if that's the case.
6:08
I will argue that there have been occasions another one that
6:11
actually is guilty of this because I just have recently
6:13
watched The Outsiders, the complete novel, which is a recut
6:16
of that movie by Francis Ford who has gone and recut
6:19
Apocalypse now and recut Godfather 3 in the years.
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There is an element that says I couldn't do it because studio
6:28
pressures Lucas another prime example now recutting the movie
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isn't necessarily what he did, but saw the limitations of 1977
6:37
or 81 or I'll get back and like I will and can now make it
6:41
something different. Coppola is restructuring
6:43
Godfather. He's shuffled the beginning, the
6:45
middle of the end in different ways.
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And in part it's with the benefit of hindsight.
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It's like, well, this movie wasn't well received and now I
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can go and try and make it better.
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We've talked before about a couple of movies, none of which
6:56
come to mind immediately, that I would have preferred a longer
6:59
version because what it cuts out or skips over I think is
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actually more interesting than what we actually get.
7:06
Not to suggest that it exists like that they shot it, but I
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meant in the cutting of the movie.
7:12
I want to spend more time with these guys in this world, in
7:15
this thing. Event horizon I think.
7:17
Maybe that's another one. Actually, there's another one
7:18
where they cut so much out of it that the story doesn't make any
7:21
sense anymore. Now that is cut together for a
7:24
variety of reasons. I don't know specifically, but
7:26
studio involvement likely, and theatre.
7:28
Keeping it less disgusting. Less gory, all of these kinds of
7:32
things. It's a horror fan.
7:33
The unrated directors cut was always like the Holy Grail for
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me because I got a chance to finally watch.
7:39
The kills were cut out of the EPA and video is different than
7:42
the theatres, like they're different rating systems.
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So all of that love is to say that it's not always a detriment
7:49
to add more to a story. I think when your movie is
7:53
really shitty, it's challenging to make it not shitty.
7:58
Shitty it so well I'll tell you this did not do it any.
8:01
Good on either side, I said. I didn't like it at the original
8:05
length. This wasn't any better.
8:06
Yeah, having said all that, this is a nay on if it makes it
8:11
better. I myself feel like you had seen
8:14
it once before I snagged it. Sure it deal someplace.
8:18
Yeah, 10 bucks somewhere. Bargain bin at.
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The time would have been like no don't think so.
8:24
I think I found it under the letter RI go right to the RRS.
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OK, and I go Rocky. Nope.
8:30
Nope. Rambo no.
8:31
Rainier Games, yes yeah, that's it.
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I went through a pretty big phase shortly after that movie
8:37
came out of grabbing a lot of. Reindeer based games, Reindeer
8:41
movies. And Blu rays came out.
8:43
When were Blu rays started really hitting?
8:45
Early to mid 2000s. So yeah, I think it was
8:48
probably. Mid 2000s.
8:50
Yeah, what about four or five years after it came out?
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So I hadn't seen it until I got it on Blu.
8:54
Ray. And it's been blessed sitting on
8:57
my shelf ever since. I've thought about going back to
9:02
it, but there's reasons why it hadn't gone back to it eagerly.
9:05
And I'm just getting it back to it now.
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And I needed some more time to forget about it so I could watch
9:12
it with fresh eyes. Sure.
9:14
Yeah, Yeah. And only remembered was OK.
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I think there's a twist. There's some guys dressed up as
9:19
Santa Claus. There's some snow and a
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transport. Truck.
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I was really surprised about how little I remembered of it.
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I remembered the Charlize of it, certainly.
9:29
I did not totally forgot she was in.
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It and I remember what I felt even at the time was one of the
9:34
worst lines of dialogue ever committed to film, which was
9:37
Spanish saying don't play any of your reindeer games.
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Yeah, it felt like what? Like that's what exactly?
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Like it's just such like a nonsense I.
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Guess if I knew what it meant like.
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It doesn't mean anything I. Can mean something.
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Well, it's a reference. We wouldn't say it.
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It's in reference to Rudolph. Obviously they wouldn't let him
9:54
play in any reindeer themes, but it's no that doesn't mean
9:56
anything other than. OK, well that's the case.
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I don't. Like it?
10:00
I'm surprised you couldn't have picked that up, but the one
10:02
reindeer in the entire universe you couldn't put the.
10:06
Oh, his name is Rudy. There it is.
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Yeah. Rudolph.
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Rudy, Sure, but he doesn't know he's.
10:11
Rudy And it doesn't even matter even if you did not that it's
10:15
like trying to be clever. It's garbage.
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OK. It is so that I remembered, and
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I remember Charlize and I remembered that there was a
10:20
twist, but I couldn't remember what that twist.
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Was I forgot what the actual was existed and Gary and he says
10:26
haircut hairstyle should say yeah is due.
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Is due so going in I actually had I wanna say high hopes I
10:32
certainly recognize that I did not like this movie all those
10:35
years ago and here we are but I did think.
10:37
Not like it all over. Again, it's another opportunity,
10:39
as we've talked a number of times over the years of this
10:41
show, is to try and recontextualize movies.
10:45
Sometimes they grow in esteem, so they lose some of that.
10:48
Sometimes it just stay the. Same and this one just stays the
10:50
same as it feels like I hated it then.
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Now I know why though. I feel like I can articulate it,
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maybe more Tried articulate, I'm not.
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Very good article. You can stumble your way
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through. Yeah, probably stumbled through.
11:00
I'll get some words out, some of it will make sense.
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That's right. But as you get better and better
11:04
editing, the listeners won't even know the difference.
11:07
It'll flow beautifully. I've gotten so good in the last
11:11
two years. Yeah, everything.
11:12
Yeah, it's magic. First of all, I wanna say, have
11:15
you ever been to prison? I would just, you know, I went
11:18
to Alcatraz. Yeah.
11:20
To visit, though. Yes.
11:21
Just to visit. OK.
11:22
Well, you've never been in a prison, Never been involved in a
11:24
riot? No.
11:26
Nothing like that. No.
11:27
OK. Just want to get that out of the
11:28
way. This is the first section of the
11:29
movie is. Sure.
11:30
Now, I did just briefly want to chat about the filmakers as we
11:33
talked a little bit about John Frankenheimer, who has done
11:37
prison time, actually has probably done some prison.
11:40
I don't think so. He directed a movie called The
11:42
Manchurian Candidate. Denzel 1 cause it was.
11:44
That's Jonathan Demme, OK, He not the original.
11:47
Back in the 60s, yeah. With Frank Sinatra.
11:50
Frankie yes. Our dear friend still around,
11:52
Angela Lansbury yeah, Which is a really good movie.
11:56
Any Hour had a resurgence in the 90s by directing Ronan Which?
12:01
Is on my show. I don't think I've ever
12:03
actually, I don't think I've ever watched it.
12:04
Alright, well, maybe it was in that space.
12:08
He did, I believe, the second French Connection movie.
12:11
So he had a career that lasted a long time, but not a lot that I
12:14
would immediately glom onto. OK.
12:17
And this was his last movie and written by this guy Aaron
12:21
Krueger, which you're probably unfamiliar, but at the time I
12:24
was really big into screen writing.
12:26
And he had won what they call the Nickel Fellowship in 97
12:30
eight, some of that region. And his first script was
12:32
Arlington Rd. Really.
12:34
Because that is on my shelf and I've watched it a few times.
12:38
There you go. Pretty unique and.
12:39
So that's a movie where I remember hearing the premise and
12:42
thinking that's really clever. To explain the.
12:45
Twist and then if that same logic I find out he's written
12:49
this movie and I hear the premise.
12:52
I think that's pretty clever. And you went on later to write
12:55
the ring. He wrote the third Scream movie.
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I think he's done the recent Top Gun like he's he's a hack.
13:02
To be fair, at least in my opinion, because those are all
13:04
suck and I find that he's better with concept than he is maybe
13:07
with execution because again, I watched this and hear this.
13:09
Two guys in prison, one guy dies, the other one takes over
13:12
his life. I'm like there's ruled there's
13:15
room for a movie there. Yes, a good idea here.
13:18
The premise was solid and it's once the movie starts getting
13:21
going, you realize not so much and evident certainly in these
13:25
first scenes. Now the movie, as you say, does
13:27
open in prison and one of the things that drove me the most
13:31
nuts. There's two things that I really
13:32
have problems with right away. And that are oh, right at the.
13:35
Right away because I was OK with it for that whole section.
13:38
Really, they're fairly stylistic choices, so I can appreciate
13:40
there's maybe more of me being a jerk, picky, or whatever else in
13:45
regards to my aesthetic. OK, but the two things that
13:48
stuck out were the excessive use of close-ups in the prison
13:53
phases type headshots. OK, that I just thought.
13:56
That's. Unnecessary.
13:59
No. I mean, there's a reason why you
14:01
cut wide. There's a reason why you zoom
14:03
in. There's a reason why you Dolly
14:04
over your shoulder. All of these things are ways to
14:06
tell a story and to convey information.
14:09
But like a dialogue sequence in a prison yard, you don't need
14:13
what I think anyway. Tight, extreme close-ups.
14:16
You need a wide two shot to show that they're just two people in
14:19
this vast place. You don't get any of the sense
14:21
of where they are when you're looking at that stuff.
14:23
So those choices, I think right away I'm like, it's a bit
14:26
jarring. As much as I like Ben, I don't
14:28
need to see that shot. Jarring is a big word that comes
14:30
up in my at school during You don't want to jar.
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The audience I do not sounds, I don't enjoy being Jarred and.
14:35
Unless you're not jam so. The second thing that really
14:39
right away ticked me off OK, is the camera is going up and down.
14:45
If you remember when the photos are on Nick's wall, the photos
14:50
of Ashley great and the cameras down and up and down and up and
14:55
down and up. And then we get a reveal of Ben
14:58
Affleck doing push ups. Except Ben Affleck is facing out
15:04
of the prison of the bars. Sure, but the camera angle,
15:08
which is effectively a POV, effectively in that shot,
15:12
ineffective it's designed to be, is doing up and down over
15:16
pictures of Ashley Marshall. Or Ashley.
15:18
So you've got to switch 60 degrees 90.
15:20
Degrees 90°. That wasn't very good algebra
15:23
anyway. So right away I'm just like this
15:25
movie feels like a hackery. The choices that are being made
15:29
here are not sound, and I recognize that may be at my own
15:34
aesthetic choices or preferences, but I read it like
15:37
Logic is already being discounted.
15:40
Yeah, I cannot say that I picked up on that because I'm not as
15:43
astute as you, my friend. But that does make sense because
15:47
throughout the movie I'm like, this is lazy or it's a poor
15:51
choice, unnecessary. They talked about it before.
15:54
I'll talk about it again. This movie, it really annoys me,
15:57
Glass. I really let it out that
15:58
episode. Just the fact that you didn't
16:00
put any. And who you have in the scene,
16:03
these extras just look like very extra.
16:05
They're NPCS. They're just.
16:06
Yeah, wander around. And these are very important
16:09
people. Yeah.
16:10
They're supposed to be. Yeah.
16:12
Well, they sell your scene. They sell your.
16:14
Movement, yeah. And that really put me over the
16:17
edge. And this isn't as bad as that.
16:20
But again, there's a lot of points where I'm like, come on,
16:22
guys. I think what's more telling than
16:25
just some snobby idiot going on and on about shots and why maybe
16:29
they don't work or why they stick out or whatever jar an
16:33
image. I think it's really fascinating
16:35
to me to hear you who's sort of a self professed kind of.
16:40
I don't know, man. Like I just take the movie as it
16:43
comes. Sure, Yeah, right.
16:44
There's nothing wrong with that. But I meant like even.
16:46
His advantages and disadvantages exactly.
16:48
But even through just that lens and that prism of you maybe
16:52
couldn't articulate what was off, but something was off.
16:55
Yeah, right. Not enjoying it, That's.
16:57
The thing. And so to me, that's obviously a
16:59
movie problem because I can look at it and go like, oh, you're
17:01
just being snobby or you're just being nitpicky or you're just
17:03
being your own thing, something. And while you may not be able to
17:05
specify the thing in that regard, it makes it telling to
17:10
me that it's a filmmaker problem, not necessarily a
17:13
meanie being nitpicky problem. Yeah, most things are typically
17:16
a you. I usually accept.
17:18
That, yeah, but you're. Right in this.
17:20
Case OK, Argue. No, it's not.
17:22
So. Well, now those are like
17:24
literally like the first sort of two shots of the movie or
17:26
whatever else. What about the rest of the
17:28
prison scene? We could maybe look at that as a
17:30
chunk. We can't we.
17:32
Maybe not the rest of it, but. No, we can.
17:34
Certainly this is because its own moment.
17:37
Really, it's all like the preface.
17:39
For what comes next, yes. Everything.
17:42
Not absolutely. So what are your thoughts on
17:45
just the prison sequence in general and the scenes, the
17:48
relationship, how it establishes that friendship?
17:51
Do you have any highlights of that?
17:53
Well, I think overall it's done pretty well.
17:55
It gives me the sense that this could be a good movie.
17:59
The dialogue is pretty solid. It's giving us some exposition.
18:02
It's giving a little idea why he's been in prison.
18:04
He says that pretty good with a voiceover.
18:06
Some people are in for rape and murder and they're out before I
18:10
am. And I'm car thief for car thief,
18:12
you know, and but of Nicks, sort of why he's in there, a little
18:15
bit of whoopsie, Daisy, I killed the guy.
18:18
I was mad, wasn't planned. So therefore it's manslaughter.
18:20
So he's getting out at the same time.
18:22
Actually, this movie has a tendency to playing what it's
18:26
doing, what it's doing. And I don't mind that in some
18:28
instances. Sometimes I need it because I
18:31
need it to be explained to me. Yeah.
18:33
But at that point, I'm OK with it.
18:34
So I thought in general, I thought the insects in the food
18:37
I thought was great. It was gross.
18:40
I thought it was. I had real problems I just
18:42
thought. The has it happened to?
18:44
You no, I mean the stuff around like their demons or something
18:47
in the gelatin and like repeating.
18:49
I just thought like, OK, so if this is your inciting incident,
18:53
it doesn't make any sense. Is it that like the riot later,
18:57
is is taken into account that it was an accident like it wasn't?
19:02
Planned. It wasn't planned because he was
19:04
supposed to get stabbed. That's.
19:05
Right, so who? So it just so happens that this
19:08
one day there was a these bugs in the gel.
19:11
Like I, I just felt like a lot of protein.
19:13
I don't understand most of that stuff.
19:18
Yeah. And I felt like it's a little
19:19
contrived and a little silly. Now, obviously it sets up the
19:22
fact the rest of the movie is going to be exactly as contrived
19:25
and as silly as it is. So I didn't really think too
19:28
much of it. But in the moment, not knowing
19:29
what the rest is to come, I was like, I just don't.
19:33
This is such a weird sequence and how Affleck doesn't seem to
19:38
care. And that, I think, is just the
19:41
idea, Like it's protein, don't worry about who cares, shut up.
19:43
I just think you'd have to be pretty far gone in life.
19:47
That was pretty. Good to not have that be like
19:50
affecting on some level. I don't think he wants to eat it
19:52
himself. Yeah, I think he's just trying
19:54
to be joke smart ass. You don't Bannah.
19:57
Smart ass. But.
19:58
I just threw me off as all. Overall, I thought again by the
20:01
end of the whole prison scene, I think that's.
20:03
OK. Do you get that relationship?
20:05
Do you get those two as buddies? Yeah, for sure they're buddies,
20:08
but not buddy. Buddy with the whole courtyard.
20:11
Yeah. That's my question about Charlie
20:13
ease about her like, well, how about I take her out for a
20:16
couple years dates during the day, like we mean night sort of
20:20
things happened. I thought it was a little.
20:21
Bit cringy, Little gross, yeah. But here we have two guys who
20:24
have been in prison for I think what I think it's 5.
20:26
Years. Five years.
20:27
So I bought it on that premise, like, well, if I haven't been
20:31
with a woman for five, which I probably did definitely go five
20:33
years, sure, at some point. All 5 to 10. 5 to 10, yeah.
20:40
And I think it's different because I probably could if I
20:43
tried harder, applied myself. Sure.
20:45
You can apply yourself as much as you want in prison.
20:48
You're not getting it, at least for it you're female.
20:50
My initial note for this sequence as well was in talking
20:54
about how their buddies and their friends, and in voiceover
20:57
he talks about how all you can really talk about in the
21:01
courtyard or in prison is what you're going to do after prison.
21:04
And then he says, what are you going to do when you get out of
21:07
prison? Huh.
21:08
There's a part of me that thought, this is today.
21:11
Is this the first time that he's asked that question?
21:13
Because after this long, he's just talked about how this is
21:16
what you talk about when you're in prison.
21:18
And then he asked the question, I'm like, OK, so is it mean that
21:20
you've been talking yourself about this today?
21:23
This is what you do. The 20th time he's mentioned.
21:26
Pecan. And that's the thing, I took it
21:27
to sort of be maybe more like I'm excited.
21:30
And you know what I'm gonna do when I get out of prison?
21:33
I'm going to get some hot chocolate and some pecan pie.
21:35
I feel like my hope is that it's like an inside joke between them
21:40
that they consistently have talked about what the first
21:42
thing they're. Gonna do in the movie that
21:43
indicates he has said pecan π before.
21:46
Anyway, I gave it credit by the end, but at first I thought this
21:49
sucks. This movie is so lazy in its
21:53
writing and its execution, right?
21:55
Away. You're saying it sucks and we're
21:56
not even out of prison. Yet we're not even out of
21:58
prison. I'm already now and then three
22:01
or four strikes against it is the problem is like I'm watching
22:03
this movie and there's things that are so uncomfortable to me.
22:08
I did like the Shiv. I did like that there was death,
22:11
yes, early on. From that point on, I enjoyed
22:15
it. I didn't really get the prison
22:16
guard messing with him after. It's unnecessary.
22:19
But generally speaking, you think it never comes back if
22:22
that guard came back again. It be a little different if
22:24
there was some other element. But of all the things that do
22:27
come back in this movie, the guard wasn't one of them.
22:29
But I did like the stuff on the bus.
22:31
So what are your thoughts on the bus?
22:33
Would you have gotten off the bus, do you think, given
22:35
circumstances? Five years, Charlize in a nice
22:38
silver coat. Well, with the knowledge I have
22:40
now, no, But with the knowledge I had stay at that time.
22:43
I love that when he looks to the left and he's about to not do
22:46
it. Yeah.
22:47
And he sees this couple making out on the.
22:49
Bus ready to pork her on the. And so I think that's clever.
22:52
Yeah, I agree. Would I do it?
22:54
I'm not sure. But the fact that the character
22:56
did it makes complete sense within the script and with
22:59
what's being delivered. And it has to happen, obviously
23:01
anyways. Well, I would without
23:03
hesitation, get off the bus. Get off the bus.
23:05
Yeah. Well, we I'm aware.
23:09
It is clever structure of a story to do that and the sort of
23:14
premise within, as I said, obviously needs to have it for
23:16
the movie. But I would not be as conflicted
23:18
as Mr. Affleck was in that moment.
23:20
As for bus scenes go, it's fine, you're the best bus scene I've
23:23
seen, but not the. Worst No fugitive probably maybe
23:26
the best bus scene. The daylight.
23:28
Good bus scene there, shoe involved.
23:31
Speed. Speed we haven't talked about on
23:34
the podcast, so movie doesn't exist really.
23:36
There's a bus, Definitely, absolutely.
23:47
So now begins effectively the very short but the lovey dovey,
23:51
if you will. The winter romance.
23:53
The winter romance, the rushed love.
23:55
A good winter romance. Side you know you have to go out
23:58
that often that's stay home watch movies look.
24:00
Out nothing but a candy cane doesn't make any sense either.
24:03
I don't know better, she says that, she says to him.
24:07
When I get back in there, you better be wearing nothing.
24:09
Put a candy cane. Have you ever worn a candy cane
24:11
in your life? No, but I guess that you could
24:13
hook it on an erection. Sure.
24:15
Yeah. I don't know if that's what she
24:16
was. Would you wanna put on a candy
24:18
cane if you're having interaction doesn't make.
24:20
No, take the whole sexualization of it.
24:23
I don't wanna candy gain on any given day.
24:26
No, I don't enjoy. I don't like the flavor for a
24:29
Christmas guy, I do not enjoy peppermint, and I don't mind the
24:31
ones that were actually cherry flavored.
24:33
Sure, you know that extra fake one?
24:34
Different stripes. That's right.
24:36
Yeah, the wannabes. But otherwise not a fan.
24:38
So, yeah, it's very record. They first sit down.
24:40
I love that they're talking about the weather.
24:42
She says -5 yeah. And he must say with the wind
24:46
chill, you know, if he said wind chill, some people think it's
24:48
windshield. Doesn't clarify that for
24:51
everyone. Wind.
24:51
Chill all 12 listeners. It's wind chill.
24:55
Yes, yes, I love the awkwardness of the scene actually.
24:58
Oh yeah, plays. Because I think it totally
24:59
plays. I think you get all that
25:00
excitement. I don't know if you ever did on
25:02
the online dating, but I did a period of my life with some
25:04
online dating Lava life completely lava life my jam.
25:07
And there would be occasions where your texting and you're
25:11
chatting like MSN or whatever. Else back and forth.
25:13
And then at some point you have to break the seal, as it were,
25:17
and go into public. And there's the things that you
25:19
were chatting about and the ease in which you were doing it on
25:23
text, and then you get in face to face and it's weird and
25:27
awkward. And having comfortable and then
25:29
eventually you have sex. Now you've mentioned, I think
25:30
I've recalled having that sort of conversation being then being
25:34
super awkward and ending up that night.
25:37
Still works the sack. Sure, because you've already
25:39
built up all the credibility, even a moment of
25:41
uncomfortability, and they may never see you again anyway.
25:44
And everyone knows you're getting into, in this instance,
25:46
sure anyway. But that was a situation where
25:48
this felt really fairly natural, actually.
25:50
Was like, he doesn't know what to say to her, in part because
25:54
he doesn't have the history. Yeah, right.
25:56
But also, what do you got? You got nothing to talk about.
25:59
Five years got nothing to say. Actually one of the better
26:01
scenes in the movie. Speaking of natural, yeah, it's
26:04
a few moments later we could see Charlize with her natural,
26:09
natural beauty. Natural beauty, yes, I forgot
26:12
about that. That's all I could think about
26:14
this one for 23 years, the only thing that stuck out to me.
26:16
Yeah. So.
26:17
And Ben's bottom. Yes.
26:19
Yes. Not shy.
26:20
Was that his bottom or do you think it was a stunt double?
26:23
Not really a stunt, but just a butt double, I guess.
26:26
I think it's natural. I'd have to spend spend some
26:29
time on it, but I'm gonna call it Bens Butt.
26:31
Yeah. Early contender for Bud of the
26:34
Year and rest of the year he gets through category.
26:37
Absolutely. Next year, buddy.
26:40
But that is where the sort of good scenes really end for a
26:44
long time. Yeah.
26:45
And then there's a shopping spree.
26:47
There's only one stage. Yeah.
26:48
You watch them doing the fun things.
26:50
And it's not long after. And soon after, we get
26:52
introduced to Gabriel. Yeah, her brother.
26:55
Gary Sinise. Sinise is it?
26:57
Yes, now we haven't talked a lot about Gary Sinise.
27:01
No, no, we haven't done anything with him in.
27:04
It I don't think so. I don't think so.
27:06
Do you have any thoughts on him or his performance in here?
27:09
He's obviously the main bad guy in this movie, ultimately with
27:13
the heck of a haircut. Yeah, you know what?
27:15
When I picture my seam in his and NCIS or.
27:18
OHK OK. He does one of those.
27:21
OK. Shows.
27:22
I think it's New York, CSI New York, I believe I'm not
27:25
mistaken. I see him in that good role, of
27:28
course. He Lieutenant Dan.
27:29
Forrest and I have very small recollection of that movie.
27:34
Seems like he was a good guy but not a good guy.
27:37
Bad guy until he was reformed, sure.
27:38
Yeah. So I don't have a lot of
27:40
experience with Gary, MMMM, other than my brother Gary,
27:43
which I know a little bit better and I think him as a bad guy.
27:47
He has a bit of a look. Like I say, you could do a bad
27:49
guy pretty. Easily.
27:50
Yeah. I think they made him pretty
27:52
bad. Guy hair hairstyle made him look
27:54
even more shitty. Facial hair and the long
27:57
straggly hair. I was like, yeah, you're selling
27:59
me on bad guy. Yeah, it probably is.
28:00
They do a lot of that in this movie.
28:01
In general. They're trying to sell you
28:03
stuff. Yeah, they're trying to sell
28:05
you. He's a bad guy.
28:06
Yeah, they're trying to sell. By beating you over the head
28:08
with the fact that he's a. Bad.
28:09
Yeah. And then you have the back and
28:11
forth with Nick and Rudy's. There's a lot of that.
28:13
And all it does is give me a headache.
28:14
But back to the point is, I think him as a bad guy is pretty
28:19
good. I just don't think it was
28:20
written well. There's a lot of fat in this
28:24
movie. Yeah, that could have been
28:25
shaved off. That could have kept his
28:27
baldness intact, but without giving me a headache.
28:30
Yeah, I think that he's in the movie too much.
28:32
Yeah, I think ultimately. That's what it is, an extended.
28:34
Cut. I find it pretty repetitive, the
28:36
scenes that he's in, the dialogue that he's got.
28:38
Having the same to kick your. Ass man.
28:41
And then he gets free. And then 10 minutes later, you
28:44
sit down, I'm gonna kick your ass, OK?
28:47
And then he breaks out and then comes back and you do that
28:49
again, I'm gonna kick your ass. A lot of rinse and.
28:51
Repeat over and over and over again.
28:53
So I agree like the look I think works but he's not given
28:57
anything really. He's got 1 scene which I really
28:59
like that I'll get to shortly, but otherwise it's such a stock
29:04
mustache twirling bad guy like it's bad guy with a capital B
29:08
look at me, I'm the bad guy performance that it just doesn't
29:13
carry the weight and he's in it too much to really believe him
29:15
as a bad guy because he's had opportunities to really be the
29:19
bad guy and doesn't really deliver on.
29:22
It's forced on you, like, oh, we have to remind the audience that
29:25
this guy is bad, so now it's time for him to kill an innocent
29:28
person, which is what we get later on when Ben runs away.
29:32
Spoiler talk about that scene. But there's a lot of that in
29:35
this movie. Just let you know, this guy's
29:37
bad. And he's got really shitty
29:38
dialogue. This is a problem as well.
29:42
You're going to try and get up my sister's chimney or something
29:44
like that, or get. Down lot of Christmas metaphor.
29:47
Metaphor. It's garbage.
29:49
I was like, what are you talking about?
29:50
Don't play any of your reindeer games and you're trying to get
29:53
down to my sister's chimney. Like what the fuck are you even
29:55
talking about? Nobody talks like that.
29:57
Now they switched the names or at that point he was Rudy and
30:01
they don't play any reindeer games.
30:03
Rudy more of his Rudolph the then and delivered properly.
30:08
Yes, there's there's Nick here. It's pretty easy and it is
30:12
agreed he like it's an easy joke to make but it's even in the
30:17
easiness it's ill timed. And he's Nick.
30:20
And he's Nick, so doesn't matter.
30:21
Yeah, that's another thing I didn't really like is the on and
30:25
on about. Oh my God.
30:27
He's Nick. No, he's not.
30:29
He's rude. He's but he's not.
30:30
What is happening? Man, some of it, but.
30:33
Sure. Again, you have a couple of
30:34
scenes. One whole extra scene that Yeah,
30:37
that. It's on and on and on and on,
30:39
and the movie is so dependent on this confusion.
30:43
And then certainly by the end of it you realize what the fuck
30:45
were we even arguing about this whole time anyway?
30:47
Like none of it makes any fucking sense by the time this
30:50
movie is. Over I love it doesn't.
30:51
Matter to the plot, to the story?
30:52
That doesn't matter to the character.
30:54
Big problem with this. Movie.
30:55
It's such a huge problem and as a result we get shitty things
30:59
like don't play any no reindeer games with me and you get.
31:03
Anything else? Well, you got this.
31:05
Clever this. Scene soon afterward, Danny
31:07
Trejo plays one of the villains. This other villain, I should
31:10
mention the cadre there. We've seen him.
31:12
He's a typical, he's your bad guy.
31:14
Absolutely he's a bad guy, but. Generally speaking, is sort of
31:17
the bad guy thug. He's in Heat, plays a good guy
31:21
in Halloween 2 or Halloween 1. The Rob Zombie remake.
31:24
Of course we've got Donald Logue.
31:27
Canadian boy, Yeah. Born from Ottawa, Ottawa, ON and
31:30
Ottawa. And we last spoke of him in Max
31:33
Payne. He played his partner's great,
31:35
great film. The archive that.
31:37
That's in the archives, of course.
31:38
Yeah, Wahlberg delight. And we've got Clarence Williams,
31:41
the third, who played Link Hayes in the mod squad.
31:46
Sure. Which he's in a movie called The
31:49
Legend of 1900 that I think we might take off the shelf this
31:53
year. When stop and you.
31:54
Just a beautiful movie. But anyway, he's in that.
31:56
He was also, I believe, in American Gangster, which we can
31:59
talk about in the archives as well.
32:01
That's the sort of bad guy group.
32:02
But there's a scene in which they're driving after they've
32:05
captured Nick and he's in the back of the truck.
32:08
And this to me is like Aaron Krueger shitty writing over the
32:11
magazine. The magazine where he talks
32:13
about seems to me like anybody smart would have.
32:16
So it's like, it's like it's a Quentin Tarantino type of
32:20
dialogue. It's like, look how smart we
32:21
are. We're modern, we're hip, we're
32:23
bad guys, but we're kind of cool.
32:25
And the best we could come up with is we should have a second
32:28
Christmas in July. That way we can make more money.
32:31
Makes sense. What's funny though, at work we
32:33
talked about how all the deals are now where we really have
32:36
just top load. You've trained customers to only
32:39
shop once a year. Yeah.
32:41
And that's not necessarily a good thing.
32:44
We. Got for consistently thriving
32:45
business. Right now, so I see his point,
32:48
yes, so I related to. It, I don't think it's a bad
32:51
point. I just think coming in this
32:53
movie at this time, with these actors in this movie.
32:56
Ill timed. A silly scene to me.
33:00
There's nothing natural about this conversation to me, which
33:03
is really annoying. We cut to again, more close-ups.
33:07
We get the scene now where he's now basically trying to fight
33:12
back. He's saying he talks to Ashley
33:15
and says he's had better sex in prison than with her with Coach.
33:21
Ouch indeed. In more ways than one, if you
33:24
know what I mean. But having watched that sex
33:26
scene, I find it difficult to believe that that's true.
33:28
He's lashing out. Yes, exactly.
33:30
Yeah, he's upset, but rightfully so.
33:33
I do think that the scene in which Donald Lowe goes to him,
33:36
this is a plot hole we've already felt.
33:39
And Donald Logos, I get why he wants us to think that he's not
33:44
the guy. But why does she?
33:45
Think. But why does he want her to
33:47
think that he's not the guy? I don't think he's the guy.
33:51
And he had it right all. Along and that's the thing I
33:53
just think like that is logical question.
33:54
You don't believe Canadians. Those are logical questions to
33:58
an illogical plot that are disregarded, and I get that.
34:02
Again, the movie needs to keep moving forward.
34:03
But in this type of movie, to someone almost calling out the
34:08
absurdity of the plot that we're watching.
34:11
He gets it. Logan gets it, yeah.
34:13
It just makes the audience, or at least certainly me as an
34:16
audience member, roll my eyes even more because I'm watching
34:19
this going, oh, come on, this is ridiculous.
34:22
Just kill him. And then the guys like, what
34:24
about shut up, you don't know we're going to keep.
34:27
Some dumb reason to keep a lot? Yeah, some small little.
34:31
Oh well, in case we need someone who has little bit curly hair or
34:35
something, we might. Wanna yeah, maybe we should try
34:37
and like. He's right-handed.
34:39
It will keep him around, see what happens next.
34:40
It's so obvious and so garbage, but we finally get the payoff of
34:45
that trailer I like so much, which is the hot chocolate and
34:48
the pecan. Pie.
34:49
Yeah, you finally gets to. Finally gets to have a nibble,
34:52
eh? Did you find this movie to be
34:55
unintentional comedy? No.
34:57
I think it wanted to be a comedy.
34:59
Number might have wanted to. That's my question, yeah, but I
35:02
didn't feel the same. I was like none of this is
35:03
funny, although I. Did trying.
35:06
They were trying. Really.
35:07
Really. None of it delivers.
35:09
Gave me a a laugh other than when he says reindeer game.
35:12
Well, Reindeer Games is hilarious.
35:14
Good. That's gold.
35:16
The only time actually, I did chuckle actually, was in the
35:18
diner sequence where he finally does get his pie and he's eating
35:21
it and Senise is trying to interject and like, get to the
35:25
plan and he just gives the waving of his hand in front of
35:27
him. Like, not now.
35:28
I'm not finished yet. That I did find strangely
35:31
comedic. I was like, well, that's funny.
35:33
One thing that I actually found inadvertently funny, because
35:37
we're talking about how I tried to be funny, they're planning
35:39
the heist in the coffee shop restaurant, and Ben says the R
35:44
word. Yeah.
35:44
And as soon as he says it, Garry's character gets really
35:48
mad. Yeah, lose it.
35:49
He loses it. And it's not because of that,
35:51
but the way it was timed. I thought he's mad because he
35:54
said the artwork. That's right.
35:56
That somehow is 2023. And yeah, exactly.
35:59
Yeah, he's offended. Offended.
36:02
He's a killer, but killers can get offended.
36:04
Too. That's right.
36:05
So that's one thing I I chuckled at, but it was that was not
36:08
intended. Didn't funny, No.
36:10
Unlike Ranger games. That's right.
36:12
I just think at the beginning of this movie, I'm like, it's a
36:14
hard thriller. I find the tone of this movie is
36:17
to be a bit of a mess. I think it's indicative of the
36:19
fact that you're saying that all the choices that are being made
36:21
feel like they're being made in the moment and not as part of a
36:23
larger story to tell. This movie unfortunately try to
36:28
be something and all it should have been was a popcorn action.
36:32
Obey. Like sure, a heist movie
36:34
something. It just falls apart of the
36:35
weight. Of it tries to be something that
36:36
it really shouldn't have been in my opinion.
36:38
I did find some humor in the cowboy outfits when they're
36:43
doing the Recon. What about Ashton Kutcher?
36:45
About 50 minutes into the movie and we get the gang going in to.
36:49
Sort of Recon. Recon mission and see what's
36:51
what. And I found that to be somewhat
36:54
humorous very briefly, but I thought, you know, if I can pull
36:57
that silliness off pretty good. I think the introduction of the
37:00
great Dennis Farina in this moment, as well as the as the
37:04
casino honcho or whatever else where he's talking to the guys
37:07
above about how he's brought in all these axes.
37:10
Got the coke and Pepsi. Coke and Pepsi.
37:13
Anyone else that offers both and I stole this.
37:15
True a lot of the time. Sure, they have a deal with one
37:17
of the other stuff that's still relatable.
37:20
Today, Yep, it hits home. But I think all the stuff that
37:25
he does, I should say all this stuff, but this first little
37:27
scene, he just can sell it. I think he's just as good
37:29
enough. Oht He's an actor and he's
37:31
funny, obviously and. Striking distance out of sight.
37:34
Sorry. But he's fantastic in Get
37:36
Shorty, which may come off this year too, but he's out time.
37:40
He's just a great actor and when you're watching him shovel his
37:43
shit to the other guys trying to get more money for the casino
37:46
made me chuckle throughout. But the rest of it, he talks
37:50
about how he's going to He's getting three Russian Broads to
37:52
do the music or whatever look like The Golden Girls doing some
37:56
entertainment. Like he's the.
37:57
Man, there's something about that that's.
37:59
Funny, I just had to run down with Dennis Farina ideas.
38:01
Yeah, I just got. He just great.
38:04
He's got all these great ideas. And he doesn't want to go back
38:06
to Vegas, definitely does not want to go here.
38:07
Yeah. Affleck gets away, makes a deal
38:10
with the guy to switch outfits, and we get what I think is the
38:13
only time where I feel any level of threat from the bad guys
38:19
because everything up until now is the same way.
38:21
We were talking. Sit down or I'll kick your ass.
38:25
Stand up real quick. Your ass.
38:26
This we actually get to watch. To me, Gabriel be be Gabriel be
38:30
pretty dark. Yeah, be himself.
38:32
So the sequence where he's running away, they fall on the
38:35
ice. I like these winter scenes.
38:36
I think that part does deliver in terms of the excitement of
38:39
the movie or whatever else. Like, it looks cold.
38:41
It looks naturally 100% wintery. And he fell through like,
38:45
that's. Yeah.
38:46
So like that stuff like Harry Bailey falls in the ice.
38:49
He has to save her and then Gabriel sees the ice Fisher like
38:56
ice fisherman. Hey, what's going on over here?
38:57
Whatever else and bends like trying to kill you Don't say
39:01
anything. Go away, go away.
39:03
I really like that scene. I like that.
39:05
Eventually Gabriel goes to the shack.
39:08
He's already shot him through the shoulder it seemed, and then
39:10
instead of shooting him shoots all around.
39:13
So the ice collapses and takes him under where this movie has
39:16
spent the last two much time now being funny for Arena and the
39:21
Cowboys and the Indians and the you know.
39:23
All you want to see the real game that you've been waiting.
39:26
I just if you're gonna have steaks, I want steaks.
39:29
You're supposed to have steaks. And they're not showing me
39:31
anything up in those points all thread.
39:32
It's all been read medium rare up to this point.
39:35
That's right. That's right.
39:36
And he says I have a hunger and a headache.
39:38
So he has a hunger to kill, is what I gather from that.
39:41
Sure. He's not actually hungry for
39:43
burger, steak, steak, so he's clearly a cold.
39:50
I don't want to say he's calculated, but he's certainly
39:53
the cold killer. Sometimes calculated.
39:55
Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
39:56
Sometimes you calculates it, sometimes you don't know.
39:58
We have been with hyperthermia. Yeah, geez.
40:00
What are your thoughts on this? I actually thought this was
40:02
fairly well rendered. As we looked cold.
40:04
Looked cold. I like that he couldn't.
40:05
Bear the darts. Get his dialogue out like he was
40:07
sort of mumbling. And then he takes some.
40:09
Dark takes some darts to himself, which I thought was
40:11
pretty good too. Basically everything from the
40:13
escape until the hypothermia darts scene.
40:16
I've actually think that is solid, 10 minutes or 15 maybe of
40:20
the movie. It's the only parts of the movie
40:22
that consistently make sense, that all of the motivations seem
40:26
legitimate, all the reactions and the interactions all make
40:30
sense. Performances seem to be on point
40:32
and we're in a moment of jeopardy.
40:33
Like all of those things, I feel for the first time, an hour ish
40:37
into the movie finally starts to coalesce and make a little bit
40:40
of sense. Doesn't last very long.
40:41
Yeah. For this brief period, I thought
40:43
this is well executed. I felt tense.
40:45
Yeah. In terms of the filmmaking, I
40:47
thought everything started to work.
40:48
Then we get back to the yelling and screaming and I'm gonna kill
40:52
you if you do this. Yeah, there's a lot of that.
40:54
And what reason do we have to keep you alive?
40:57
And then Ben always seems to find a reason to keep himself
41:00
around. It's just done too much I think.
41:03
There's a lot of flipping and flopping because right after
41:04
this scene. We have another flop so.
41:07
As a flip, Affleck saves her, they get back, she's being
41:10
consoling, whatever. Else yelling at each.
41:12
Other a little bit, but then at the same time he's like, I gotta
41:15
get a gun. Yeah, she's working with him.
41:17
And then not 5-6 minutes after that, he's working his way
41:22
around the motel. What does he find?
41:24
At what point did you realize they were brother and sister or
41:27
weren't brother and sister at this point?
41:29
OK, I was about halfway through. Like I'm thinking when I first
41:32
watched the top, maybe I'm like, yeah, just a weird relationship.
41:37
Then as soon as the top came off, that was that the point of
41:40
the thing? Yeah, but I did find.
41:42
Same here. I mean, it's a great excuse to
41:44
get some boobs out. Sure seen them though, wasn't
41:46
overly impressed. Ohgod.
41:49
High standards rests OK like mine.
41:53
Yeah, that's right. That's my bar.
41:55
Is the key question to you is who gets into a pool mat?
41:58
You might be in the pool, swim around, then you get mad, but
42:01
who gets it and then get in the pool.
42:03
Because I'm so mad at you to swim.
42:04
Yeah, exactly. I get the sense they're both
42:06
coming into the pool mad. Sure, there's tension in the
42:09
air. Yeah, I don't know.
42:10
They haven't been able to. Take care of themselves
42:12
presumably, I suppose. This is our first twist.
42:15
It's a big plot twist, yeah. It's the big reveal if.
42:18
You. But I had no idea until that
42:19
point. No, exactly.
42:20
And I thought overall, OK, I was indifferent to it.
42:23
I was like shocked and surprised or whatever, but at the same
42:26
time wasn't OHT Yeah, saw that coming a mile away.
42:28
It just happened and I accepted it and I thought it was
42:31
perfectly like legitimate, sure. Yeah.
42:33
On the offered up anyway. I can work with it.
42:36
I can work with. It but I did not, for lack of a
42:39
better term, see it coming. Like I felt surprised.
42:42
Yeah, and she's just going, no, you need them.
42:45
That's right. You can't do it.
42:47
You gotta have 5. No needs six.
42:50
Yeah, I'm just kidding. OK, well I got the real numbers.
42:52
Here hard data. Because the next scene,
42:55
basically I've got is needs six guys, 6 guns.
42:58
There you go again. Ben's trying to finagle a gun.
43:01
Yeah, which makes sense out of it makes sense.
43:03
He goes after knowing what he knows now even more so that.
43:07
Yeah, he's very much on his own. Exactly.
43:08
He's already upset with her for just telling the brother who he
43:12
knows is crazy. Hey, I know this guy in prison.
43:15
Like, come on, don't do that. Honest mistake.
43:18
But we do get, of course, the classic room service.
43:23
Bill Joe, he goes to check out of the room dollars.
43:26
Of pay-per-view, all the paper views, some booze thing.
43:30
My next question is how do you feel in general about stairwell
43:33
case scenes? You know, stairwells love them.
43:37
You love generally love them up and down, maybe an elevator.
43:40
And Richard, it's a great, great stairwell sequence.
43:45
You picked the best 1. I actually did even think of
43:47
Fugitive, but good call. But there's some good ones,
43:50
absolutely. Absolutely.
43:51
And this is it should have been a category last.
43:54
Year best stairs. But yeah, the geography of that
43:58
scene was the biggest issue for me.
43:59
Well, it's like, I don't understand where I'm at any
44:01
moment. And if these guys are so worried
44:03
about him, they just do a little pop in, you're fine and leave.
44:06
It's all awkward. Well, and the whole hot wire
44:09
thing, and that's the thing throughout this movie, fucking
44:12
Hotwire car, because you can Hotwire a car does not mean you
44:15
can Hotwire hotel. Like those are completely
44:18
different configurations, different technology estable.
44:21
Engine. The other one is.
44:23
IPad I get a headache at this point.
44:25
Yeah, it's bad. Like it's a lot of bickering and
44:27
a lot of Nick and I'm not Nick. The movie was made it really
44:31
hard to stay with it. I found it difficult to care at
44:35
any point about anybody in the movie.
44:37
I was like I don't really like it's only because it's been
44:39
really it's it. But even all but his performance
44:42
isn't even the thing. So it's just like the actor like
44:44
God, I like him. A lot of my Bruce movies are.
44:46
I feel that's. Right.
44:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's not really.
44:49
Doing it that way with Ben and we're.
44:51
Basically now at the casino. Or the the the official heist?
44:55
We're about an hour and a. Half ago in his Cowboys.
44:57
We're gonna go in. As Santas, Santas, which I
45:00
actually, you know, again from a visual standpoint or an overhead
45:03
shot of the Santas walking in or what have you visually, I
45:05
thought that I'm OK with that conceptually, what it does with
45:09
that after, I've no interest other than I do like the
45:13
blackjack sequence. Never tell you the first time I
45:15
ever played blackjack at a. Table no.
45:17
Maybe you never tell me. The first time I ever sat down
45:20
to play blackjack at a casino, I was fairly young.
45:23
You don't stand. And I had, I wanna say maybe
45:27
1617. I can't remember the exact cards
45:29
in front of me, but I hit and I had the guy next to me chastised
45:34
me and say, what are you doing? You took my card and I said,
45:39
well, I don't know what that means.
45:40
And what it means effectively is that, which is what effect does
45:44
to his old guy in this movie, is what are you doing hitting on 16
45:48
if there's a 10 in there on it? And that way the dealer takes it
45:53
and he busts out and everybody wins.
45:55
But you're playing for you and you should be playing for all is
45:58
how it was presented, how the gambler.
46:01
But I sort of get. So I was chastised.
46:03
So at a blackjack table, it's everybody against the dealer if
46:06
the dealer busts. I did not know.
46:08
That then that's the perception. It's like if the dealer busts,
46:11
then everybody pays. So the whole goal is to have the
46:13
dealer bust the car. So if you're hitting on
46:16
something that doesn't need a hit because of what's showing,
46:19
there's a lot of variables. Then potentially because I took
46:22
the dealers card, the guy next to me gets the dealers card and
46:26
therefore, you know, it just throws off the dynamic.
46:28
So anyway, I got in. Shit.
46:30
Yeah, it sounds like it. And that's ultimately what
46:31
Affleck is doing. This whole sequence where he's
46:34
sort of causing the scene. Is this the old man?
46:36
The old man and the issue there. So I found little solace, of
46:40
course, being in a casino that felt comfortable to me.
46:44
Yeah. But also that sequence in
46:47
general has brought back some traumatic memories.
46:48
What felt relatable to me is the point where Dan, I think it's
46:52
Dennis Serena's character, is telling the security guards like
46:55
a lot of you can go home because it's not very quiet.
46:59
And it reminded me of work. It's like, OK, we're about to
47:02
let someone leave early or as a manager, I would let you have to
47:05
leave early. You could be the nice boss
47:08
doesn't affect you at all and it makes you look.
47:09
Like, sure, you're a hero. Yeah, yeah.
47:12
And then as soon as they leave or they're about to leave,
47:15
either a you were going to let them leave and now you have to
47:18
say sorry, you need to stay, you know, or you they do leave and
47:21
you're now stuck being super busy.
47:23
We used to be at the. Airport, we would let people go
47:25
because yeah it's slow there's one last fight of the night
47:28
everyone just get out of here it's fine and then we get the
47:30
call yeah that flights cancelled you're like oh shit we have
47:34
nobody left anymore we just let 5 people go and we have to deal
47:39
with all these passengers now anyway so it's like it never
47:42
fails that you're trying to be the good people and you're like.
47:46
But anyways, yeah, you got all the Santas.
47:47
Get the the blackjack and the. We get Farina and he's getting
47:51
beat to a pulp. I don't know what you're talking
47:53
about. Know you're talking about,
47:54
except there's a pow wow safe. Yeah.
47:57
Yeah, there is. So there's this thing where the
47:59
whole movie, never quite Affleck is sort of pretending like
48:01
there's this pow wow, saying something, but he doesn't know
48:04
it. And you know what's in it.
48:05
He doesn't know anything about it.
48:07
And I'm not convinced even when he's talking about at the
48:09
beginning of the movie, that it even exists at all.
48:12
Maybe it's something everybody typically has.
48:13
And then he lies like you're like casino guide.
48:16
I've never seen a pussy personally.
48:18
And why is it called pow? Wow.
48:19
I think that's more because it's on a reservation.
48:21
Oh, OK. But he plays it throughout the
48:23
rest of the movie. This pow wow save.
48:25
This pow wow save, and he's at the diner and he's talking about
48:27
it. He's making it up.
48:28
You can clearly see in his eyes and his performance, he's making
48:31
it up. He's making it up.
48:31
He's making it up. Then he gets to the actual room
48:34
and Farina doesn't seem to have any.
48:37
Like when he says the words, it doesn't seem to make any sense
48:39
to Farina. He's not playing it like he
48:41
knows what a power safe is. Sanis is beating him to a pulp
48:45
asking for a pow wow. Dave then Affleck has never
48:49
known what this pow wow safe is, especially after renovation, but
48:52
he's talked about it. He then says it's behind the
48:55
liquor cabinet on a whim. It is behind.
48:59
You could tell he got lucky, he had that look like.
49:02
But just the idea is like he doesn't know what the fuck he's
49:04
talking about but just so happens that he's right Farina
49:07
doesn't know anything about it. Then goes OK and the pow wow
49:10
safe is not money at all. No, it's pow wow.
49:14
It's a gun. A machine gun.
49:16
An oozy yeah. And then it's all done to set up
49:18
a good line that's. All it is.
49:20
Yeah. And Dennis, right, might have,
49:22
might be the worst shot. He's worse than a storm.
49:24
Show Oh my God. It's the worst.
49:26
It's over in five. Seconds and Ben takes awhile for
49:29
him to dock because he has that look, he's got the guns and he's
49:32
like still standing up. It's so bad.
49:34
It's like, oh, I guess I better get down.
49:36
It's terrible, so bad. And this is another thing and we
49:40
talked about right at the beginning of the show about the
49:42
laziness and the oversight of these little things that I
49:46
wouldn't think that difficult to get right.
49:49
Sure. And.
49:50
With a little attention, With a little bit.
49:51
Of bit yeah, I can't buy this at all so.
49:54
Bad. And I know Frena isn't a rough
49:56
state, so maybe a little bit you get the sense that he was just
49:59
like this moments earlier and now he's this, but then he's
50:03
jumping out of windows. Exactly.
50:05
This is character didn't need to die.
50:07
No. He is chased them off.
50:08
Yes, he can just stop. Just move on.
50:11
Wait for help to come. Yeah, he has lived and dies when
50:14
he's 98. Exactly.
50:15
He's on a good life. Exactly.
50:17
It's not. Vegas.
50:18
Yeah, Somewhere, anywhere but Vegas.
50:19
But he keeps chasing. For no good reason, he's got no
50:22
dog in the fight. And Gabriel just obviously just
50:25
shoot him. It doesn't make any sense.
50:27
It also doesn't make much sense if the safe only had the gun in
50:31
it and the guys that are holding him captive already have guns,
50:36
then just let him in the safe. Who gives a shit if you're there
50:39
to protect? Just like the money.
50:40
If there's like $2,000,000 in a pow wow save, then that's what
50:43
you're trying to protect. Then yeah, you're going to get
50:45
beaten down and beaten down and beaten down.
50:46
But the implication when that safe opens is that there's only
50:49
guns in there. I don't see any other money.
50:51
So who gives a shit if he gets this gun, just let him open the
50:54
safe. What's the problem anyway?
50:55
It's just dumb. It's just dumb.
50:58
And if you couldn't believe it already, the movie really starts
51:01
to fall apart. They do get Clarence Williams
51:03
the third to burn in a scene that doesn't make much sense to
51:06
me, but I like that it happens. Yeah.
51:08
Like just the effect of the Burn I.
51:10
Thought was figured you like any sort of sick death that's a good
51:13
effect. You know, I bought I bought the
51:15
burn out the window. He goes.
51:18
Yeah, the old squirty gun again, that was.
51:21
Exactly, so I'm willing to accept.
51:23
OK. But now the movie, which was
51:27
already a bit of a disaster, already run its course as far as
51:29
I'm concerned. We still have another 10 or so
51:31
15 minutes. And then the movie to me really
51:34
just falls apart, starts to making no sense at all because
51:37
now it's nothing but like long exposition scenes, planning,
51:40
explaining every fucking thing that's happened up until now.
51:43
Who wouldn't love Charlize Theron?
51:45
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, hands up, right?
51:47
Here. That's right, you don't even
51:48
like her boobs. I'm not a.
51:49
Fan you liked her, I like your Mad Max.
51:52
I don't think we've. Done.
51:53
I think it's the one arm mechanical arm.
51:55
Just like have a type. I like kale charms, that's why I
51:58
like the Fugitive so much. Sure, absolutely had a
52:00
mechanical. Arm and Jedi, you're like, yeah,
52:03
right. All the things.
52:05
It just doesn't make any sense. And I do like one line in this
52:09
entire sequence. You like a line?
52:11
I like a look. Go.
52:12
With one line where he says to Charlize, I saved your life and
52:17
she simply just says you shouldn't have.
52:20
I just something about the coldness of that I thought was
52:23
really don't was a powerful, but like appropriate.
52:26
What have you got? The look that I like was after
52:29
she slips up. Oh gosh.
52:31
And knew how into that and knew how Nick.
52:33
Yeah, Rudy. Yeah, the other like you how
52:36
whoever died. Yes.
52:37
Well, I never mentioned a Shiv. Yes.
52:39
And he gives Gabriel a look like they're almost on the same team
52:43
for just a moment. If you're in the shit coming out
52:45
of mouth and yeah, yeah, and yeah, that's it.
52:48
Just a moment. It's such a collapsed movie,
52:52
just completely falls flat to me at this point.
52:54
I already don't care. There's obviously been nothing
52:56
at this point. It gives me an interested.
52:58
I'm just questioning how the logistics exactly.
53:00
But all of a sudden you've got these movies and we've talked
53:02
about movies with twists before. And I've said some of my
53:04
challenges with like an M night and so forth, where the movie is
53:06
so predicated on the twist that if you take the twist out or you
53:10
recognize that twist early, how the rest of me doesn't make a
53:13
lot of sense. Oh, hey, Gabriel still alive and
53:17
like just all sorts of like, what am I even watching at this
53:19
point? None of it makes any sense.
53:21
And then so much exposition. Sinise is now dead.
53:26
Somehow she decides to. Dude, him and not.
53:29
Athlete, not Affleck, who's already solved whatever
53:31
Affleck's point was, is over. Unless you gotta have 5, which
53:36
you do. I think that's the trick is you
53:38
gotta have 5. And they make keep giving us
53:40
reasons why they're not killing Ben.
53:43
And this is probably one of the better ones actually into
53:45
compared to smell. Sure you need 5, but can the
53:47
fifth one not have a bullet? And cannot find any.
53:50
Gonna burn him anyway. Exactly what the fuck does it
53:52
gasolines the car? Yeah, when you car goes over
53:55
it's gonna probably blow up. From the footage I've seen, yes.
53:58
Anywhere. Any Yes, in any movie in
54:00
anytime. Yes, yeah.
54:01
But I think, you know, when the twist comes, the reaction you
54:03
have tells you how good it is or how successful or effective.
54:08
Yeah. Yeah.
54:08
This one had me like, let me think.
54:10
Yeah. Yeah, I don't think so.
54:12
No, No replay they actually show.
54:14
You show you getting shipped again.
54:15
So stupid. And the blood capsule and this
54:18
and that. But what it actually happens?
54:20
It looks too real. Yes.
54:22
Like, no, that wasn't fake. No, it's like revisionist.
54:25
I don't like when they do that. You know how I feel about it.
54:28
But did you anticipate him showing up at any point?
54:31
No, because it would. Make it didn't make any sense.
54:33
It's fucking. Bad.
54:34
I like Nicks death scene though. Ohe the crushing.
54:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know me, I don't typically
54:40
like that. No, no, no.
54:42
I like good crushing. I liked it in film, not in real
54:46
life. I.
54:47
Do hate the never put a car thief behind the wheel?
54:51
Ohe yeah. Like fuck.
54:53
I just. There's nothing good.
54:54
I can't. I'm not.
54:55
I'm gonna stop. Yeah.
54:56
Everything about the ending of this movie, particularly last 10
54:58
or 15. Minutes is.
54:59
Fucking terrible. There's not a good single thing
55:02
about it. Except for the legs.
55:04
Yeah, exactly. Desperate attempts.
55:06
Like we can still be friends, right?
55:08
Yeah, I think we're past that. Yeah.
55:10
Yeah. It's funny, actually.
55:11
That is a little bit funny and the ending was sort of taking
55:14
all the money that he raised and saved and gave it away with that
55:17
talk to. Me.
55:18
We need 5 Santos, right? That's the whole thing.
55:20
We need 5 dead Santa have 5, now we have 4, and we have one going
55:25
around town with a big sack of cash handing it out.
55:29
Gee, that's not suspicious. Who would ever know?
55:31
That's the complete opposite of what Charlize was going for.
55:35
And I get it. You need 5 Santas.
55:36
I'm on board with that. Yeah.
55:38
Well, apparently you don't. No, the other one can just go
55:41
around town with a big sack of stolen money and put it in
55:44
mailbox. Because nothing in this movie
55:45
matters. Should have taken off the suit,
55:47
put it on smashed legs guy Nick sure now you got your friend him
55:51
over and then you walk away with a cache.
55:53
Really, at this point is the when embodies the accumulation
55:58
of what I don't like. When movies do this, it's.
56:01
Just none of it makes any sense. Laziness.
56:04
Laziness. Pure laziness.
56:05
And I should be 1 to talk about laziness, so sure I will be.
56:09
Hypocritical, similar to what we talked about with a simple plan
56:12
is they addressed the fact, you know, we'll burn up or we'll
56:16
leave $50,000 or $500,000 in Genius Plane because no one will
56:22
think it must have gone undetected because $500,000
56:26
would have been taken, right? So in this instance, yeah, throw
56:30
some of that money in the car, burn it up, and now your Bob's
56:33
your uncle, Hmm. And you're all good.
56:35
But instead, it turns into something else entirely.
56:37
And ending with Afflecks again, another extreme close up on
56:42
Affleck's face while the voiceover of his parents and
56:46
eating hot chocolate and pecan pie.
56:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's just smiling.
56:50
Looking at the camera is just stupid.
56:53
It's a terrible way to end a terrible movie.
56:56
Maybe it's an appropriate way. Well, considering the fact that
56:58
this movie sucks so bad right out of the gate, you know, last
57:01
year the first movie we did after the new year was the thing
57:04
for coming in here, and that's a fucking stone cold masterpiece.
57:09
And this is just. Garbage.
57:10
We are coming in cold, Cold 24, Yeah.
57:14
There's not a movie that I've seen that's worse than this this
57:17
year. And yeah, and it might hold, it
57:22
could sustain it was not sure though, if I'm involved in this
57:25
if you keep me coming. Back with 26 more opportunities
57:28
to burn it to the ground? Absolutely.
57:29
Buddy, we got more where that came from.
57:32
But yeah, I finished your thoughts and I'll.
57:34
I think it's just trash. I think there's nothing about it
57:36
that I really think is any good. I hope that sometime would have
57:40
maybe forget, and I did. Honestly, I didn't remember much
57:42
of this plotting, but it's bad. It doesn't make any sense.
57:46
It's bad choices from top to bottom.
57:48
Yeah, I don't think the 20 years, 23 years of the movie
57:53
aging, I don't think that's what even hurts it either.
57:55
We talked about how age true movies no.
57:58
This is not an age problem. Equally as bad now, so it didn't
58:01
get worse. So if I make something good out
58:03
of this is the movie isn't worse now than it was 20 years ago.
58:07
It was bad then and it's equally as bad now.
58:11
This movie should have been an action movie. 90 minutes, nice
58:15
and tight, you know, a no brainer little thrill, a little
58:18
bit of a Ben Affleck High movie with Affleck.
58:20
Yeah. And that's it.
58:21
Yeah. And not try to force this.
58:22
All this extra dialogue and it was just numbed my brain after a
58:27
while and it really took me out of the film.
58:29
Was very disappointed. The only reason I probably liked
58:31
it the first time more is I was just more younger and Dumber.
58:36
Someone argue I'm just older and equally as dumb.
58:39
Just like this movie is equally as bad now with a more mature
58:43
sort of sensibility about myself.
58:45
Like, no, this is just not a good movie.
58:47
Yeah, IMDb knows it too. Yeah, sure.
58:49
I have no doubt. I will say before we wrap it up
58:51
that the difference between the extended cut and the regular
58:55
cut. Do you know it's only about 18
58:56
minutes? So the problems with this movie
58:58
are not entirely the fact that we watched the long one, it's
59:01
that it's bad from minute 1 till.
59:03
It's just bad for less. To give up less of your.
59:06
Life. For it, but that's about it.
59:08
There you go folks. We do appreciate you giving us
59:12
this, this hour and a bit of your life.
59:15
Got extended. We did not do an.
59:16
Extent. We did not do an extended
59:17
episode. Some Magnolia levels, it's not
59:19
quite there. We come out with editors cut.
59:22
For that by the it's 15 minutes long.
59:25
It's fantastic. We do appreciate you listening.
59:27
Of course. Please start the new year off
59:30
right by liking the podcast, sharing it, following it,
59:34
subscribing to it, and sharing it with all your friends and
59:37
neighbors. And of course, we don't want any
59:39
of your reindeer games either. Let me know what you think about
59:42
it on. The absolutely join us on the
59:44
Facebook. Page.
59:45
If you liked it, maybe tell. Us why?
59:47
If anybody out there likes this movie, you can try.
59:49
And we will not chastise. You for No.
59:52
We might invite you on the episode.
59:54
Entertainment as a guest. Thanks folks.
59:56
We'll talk to you next week. You next.