Latest / DevQuestions with Tim Corey / 273. Why Getting a Job is Hard and How To Make It Better

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273. Why Getting a Job is Hard and How To Make It Better · DevQuestions with Tim Corey

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Why is getting a job so difficult?
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Why do companies ask me to do frustrating things like whiteboard interviews or take-home assessments?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Getting a job as a developer is a difficult process, but understanding why the process is difficult is the first step towards making the process easier.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the process of hiring software developers in this episode of DevQuestions.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the DevQuestiPast with Tim Corey.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Software development is more than just writing code.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about the rest of it.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Specifically, let's talk about why the process of getting a software development job is so difficult.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: What I want to do first is put ourselves in the role of a hiring manager.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Once you better understand what they go through, we can then identify the steps needed to stand out to the hiring manager.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say that you want to hire a C sharp developer.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: What's your first step?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, your first step is to assemble a job description.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: So what you're looking for is the most for the least.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: You walk into the car lot, what you want is the best possible car for the least amount of money.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: You never walk into the car lot and say, can I pay more for that?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, you want the best for the least.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: You want something where you're going to get the most value out of it and had the smallest payments or the smallest overall payout for the vehicle.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is what employers are doing too when they set up that job description.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: They're looking for what do I want?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes this is the dream with me phase where they go, let's dream with me.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: What can we ask for?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, the initial thought is I want a C sharp developer.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but then they're like, well, it'd be great if they knew DevOps.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: It'd be great if they knew Azure.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Boy, we love someone who could also be a Scrum Master.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it'd be pretty awesome if they could also be the SQL database administrator.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Before you know it, you have these weird job descriptions that have everything in them, you know, and they're they're looking for an entry-level C sharp developer who has 10 years experience in 15 different things.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's because they did the dream with me thing.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: They were they were dreaming at what they like.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And again, they're asking for the most.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: So knowing that is important because what does it really mean?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it means that they're going to compromise.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: They're not expecting to, they're hoping, but they're not expecting to find a person who matches every criteria they ask for.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, they're going to have some core things they're looking for, and the rest is just gravy.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the first thing to understand is how they assemble that job description.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, these are people and they're imperfect.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Think about how you would assemble a job description for a C sharp developer.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Again, wanting to get the most for the least.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: That will give you some insight into how it works.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And number the next thing they're going to do is they're going to post the job boards.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a uh a two-edged sword here.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of times a company will have a place on their website that says open positions or you know, open jobs, something like that, and they'll post it there.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is that not everyone knows to go there.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: So they won't get as many applicants.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: But when they post on a job board, well, all of a sudden they're going to get more applicants, lots more.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then if they post on two job boards, they'll get even more.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: So what do they do?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they have to figure out what that balance is of do I want tons of applicants or do I want less, but that means less headache.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this is where some companies will just post on their own website, and that's it.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Some companies will post everywhere, and some are going to hit the middle ground.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll find that you know, job boards like let's say Indeed, that will have some of the jobs, but not nearly all the jobs for your area.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: You'll have to go through multiple job boards.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: You'll have to sometimes use niche job boards.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And ideally, if you have the time, you'll have to go through all the companies in your area and find their web pages and see if they're hiring.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a lot.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: But why do they do that?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because when they when they put it on a job board like Indeed, they might get a thousand applications in a week.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot to go through.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so the idea of getting dumped on by that many applicants is overwhelming.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: How do you filter through?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of the next step is let's say you receive a thousand plus applications.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you're opening a remote job where you can work remotely, oh my goodness, you'll hit thousands in the first 24 hours.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you're doing just a local job and you're posting it anywhere like Indeed or other job boards that are pretty popular, you're gonna get hundreds of applications.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, what does that mean for you?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: The people posting, they're overwhelmed.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so the next step is they're going to reduce the clutter, those who don't qualify.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, what does that mean?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna look at who doesn't match.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it is, you know, we asked for the moon, we asked for 10 years experience for an entry-level job.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's some people who have no experience.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna cut them out.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: They might say, you know what, we find that there's a lot of people applying who have five years experience.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll just make that the base because that still gives us a number of people.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so they'll figure out how to set those levels.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: But what they're gonna do is look at that job posting and say, if you don't match well enough, we're gonna throw you out.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna reduce the clutter.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of clutter in job postings.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: When a person applies to a job, you'll find that a lot of times they'll apply at jobs that just don't apply.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: I had a senior C sharp developer job open that required a number of years' experience because it's a senior C sharp developer position, not an entry level.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: I had people apply who had zero experience.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're just throwing darts, hoping that some of those darts land, and then getting frustrated when they don't land my job.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because they're clutter.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: You're just throwing clutter out there and somehow expecting that to be somehow valuable.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's not.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: So reducing the clutter is the next step.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now, once they reduce the clutter, now they are going to want to interview the top candidates.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: But here's the problem.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: We live in a world where we only have 24 hours a day.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: We only have, in theory, eight hours per day of a workday.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And in theory, only five days out of the week for a workday.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you have at most 40 hours in a work week to evaluate candidates.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, tell you what, every single interview takes up at least an hour.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you may say, well, I'm going to do a 15-minute interview.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but prep for that interview, waiting for the applicant to connect, closing out afterwards, it's 45 minutes to an hour.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: So think about how many interview candidates you could go through when you still have a few hundred of them in your queue.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, you could go through maybe, maybe 25 in a week.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have to schedule and figure out when times work, et cetera.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe you go through 25 in a week per person.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, unless you're a big company, you probably don't have five, six people working on this project.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do, they're the non-technical people.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's a difficult process to go through because you only have so much time in the day.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the next step, and we're gonna get to how to conquer these things, but I want you to understand the process first.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So the next step they'll go through is to eliminate those that are clearly not good enough.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you've you've had the interview process, the first interview, and they're like, you know what, let's cut out the people that just aren't good enough.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: But then you've got to figure out how to evaluate those who do seem like they're good enough.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because here's the thing: you learn early on when you're hiring people that some people talk a great game, but they don't actually back it up with what they can do.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to figure out how do I evaluate that?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because you can't just talk to them because they talk great and it sounds great.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So this is where, and this is the dreaded thing for software developers, there's the testing.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And different companies do testing differently, whether it's a whiteboard testing, or it's a take-home test, or it's um, you know, it's a work over our shoulders kind of thing, or it's a pair programming thing, or it's just a quiz show style.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna ask you technical questions.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but figuring out how to eliminate those people who just talk a good game and don't actually know how to do the work is a hard one because there is no clear way of doing that for a developer.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: After all that, they have to pick the best candidate from who's left.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's a grueling process from the perspective of the person doing the hiring.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And add to that, that let's say you get a thousand candidates in the first week.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you have to figure out how to evaluate all those people, boil it down, and start the interview process within days.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't, then people get frustrated because they're like, this is taking forever.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but even the fastest process, it's going to take a couple of weeks at least to go through.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And no one is doing the fastest process.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's also real life to deal with.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's a difficult process.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that's that's how it works.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are the hurdles that you have to go through when hiring a candidate?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you got to sort through that massive pile.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: You have the time per candidate.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: You have to separate those who are good from those who were, you know, just talk good.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: You have to pick the person who will do the job best while fitting into the rest of the team.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: So now we understand that.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about what we can do to make the hiring manager's job easier and put ourselves ahead of the competition.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, number one is match your resume to the job posting.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Remember the the initial we get a thousand plus applicants potentially in 24 hours, you got to clear most of those away.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if your job, if your application, your resume doesn't match up with the job posting well, like maybe it uses.NET instead of C sharp, or the posting uses.net and you use C sharp or things like that, it's not going to look like it matches.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: And they're not going to understand your resume.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're not going to dig deep into your resume.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is, I have to read a thousand resumes in a day.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no one is going to dive deep into your life story and read all the paragraphs of information or all the wall of text.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: No one's going to do that.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: They're going to skim through and look for the most important things.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Look for the keywords, look for the things that match.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you do?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: You make your resume match that job posting as close as possible based upon not lying, but but highlighting the things that are most valuable.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Bold certain things.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure that your resume looks an awful lot like what they're looking for.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: That helps with the sorting process.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Then, number two, practice talking about yourself so you can get more natural at it.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna get a phone call with the HR person, probably, or a person that is non-technical, and they're gonna want to have a short conversation about, hey, you know, who are you?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: What's what's your you know resume look like?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: What's what are some things about you I should know?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Learn how to have that conversation by not waiting until that conversation to practice it for the first time.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so practice it over and over until you're natural at talking about what you've done, what you do, and what you can do for that employer.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: So being a bit more eloquent by practicing is really important.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: The first time you build an application is going to be a not so great application.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: You want to build applications over and over to get better at it over time and learn and iterate.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: The same is true for learning how to talk about what you can do.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: The first time you do it, it's gonna be rough.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna have some speed bumps there.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Learn to be better by practice.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Practice is huge.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Number three, have a have portfolio adms to show because you can show them that you can do the job instead of just telling them.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Make their life easier when they go, how do we technically evaluate people?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: You go, well, you could technically evaluate me by just looking at my code.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what I do.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not just what I say, but what I do.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: They can look at that and that can shortcut the process, can make their life easier.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Number four, get a recommendation for a friend.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have someone that you know that works the company, get a recommendation from them.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Have that person put a good word in with the hiring manager.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: That helps you stand out at every step and helps the fit evaluation because you already have a fit with somebody in the company.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: You already have a connection there.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to stand out.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: You want to be recognized or noticed.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And by having recommendation, it's it's huge.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, people say it's not what you know, it's who you know.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is one of those things where, yeah, it's you can be upset about it, but the reality is it helps.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so whether or not you like it, it helps.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: So make more friends in the industry, make more friends in business in general.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Learn how to put connections together.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn is good for this, but so is going and meeting people, go to a user group, figure out how to connect with people so that you have a connection to say, hey, I see your company has a job posting.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm applying for it.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Would you mind putting a good word in for me?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: That can be helpful.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Number five, search company job boards.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: What this does is it allows you to compete in a smaller pool.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes companies won't be posting on big job boards because they don't want that overwhelming number of applicants.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then post, uh look for their posts on their websites.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, you have to look through a lot more websites and you have to figure out who are the employers in the area.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn will help with that because LinkedIn will show you people who work in companies in your area in your field, or Glassdoor is another one for looking for companies in my area that that employ software developers.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: So search company-specific job boards, company web pages for their jobs and compete in a smaller pool because you know what?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: If you if everything else is equal, a one in a hundred chance is better than one in a thousand, or one in ten chance is better than a one in a hundred chance.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like compete in a smaller pool, it's a whole lot easier to go through these steps.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Number six, look for local-only jobs.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is one that I know everyone wants to work from home, everyone wants to, you know, work the 38 hours a week or 40 hours a week, um, not having a commute.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I understand that, but you know what?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: When you look for jobs where it's only in the office and it's only at one location, you'll find that companies have job postings that are open for a lot longer because they're looking for people.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I used to work in a company that's had open software developer jobs for years now.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: They they continue to have open software developer roles because of the fact that it's a it's an in-person job only, or mostly it's actually somewhat remote now where you can work from home a couple days a week, but you have to be near the office and you have to work in the office a couple days a week.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So having a local only job you apply for means, again, you're applying in a smaller pool.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's less people who are willing to do it, therefore you have a better chance of getting that job.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Number seven, get a different job at the company you want to work for.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is something where people don't necessarily think about this, but if if you want to work for a company that that, let's say builds software, maybe you apply for a QA job, or maybe you apply if you don't get the software developer job, maybe you apply for a QA job, or maybe you apply for a help desk job.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then you continue to work on building up your skills and you become known inside the company.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can know the hiring manager and say, hey, next time a software development job comes open, I would love to apply for it.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're one of one or one of a few where you get preferential treatment, you get kind of first billing at a potential job opening.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, it may mean not working your field right away, but it is that foot in the door that allows you to then move up.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, knowing the hiring process, the process hiring managers go through can really help you identify ways to get ahead of the competition and make the hiring manager's life easier.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you that making the hiring manager's life easier is awesome.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: We love that.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it can also make the difference between getting a canned rejection letter and getting the job.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for listening.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: And as always, I am Tim Corey.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Dev Questions.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: When you're ready to learn to think and code like a professional developer, head over to IamtimCorey.com and enroll in a course.