Latest / Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association / Episode 16: AI Can't Love: Women in Ministry and Artificial Intelligence in the Church With Dr. Kristen Ferguson of Gateway Seminary + Cheerwine Soda Review and Pleading the Blood of Jesus in Prayer.

Transcript

Episode 16: AI Can't Love: Women in Ministry and Artificial Intelligence in the Church With Dr. Kristen Ferguson of Gateway Seminary + Cheerwine Soda Review and Pleading the Blood of Jesus in Prayer. · Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association

0:00
Speaker0: Hey guys, this is Chase. Same great guest as last week. Today, Dr.
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Speaker0: Kristen Ferguson, Vice President of Gateway Seminary just outside of LA and
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Speaker0: an expert on women in ministry and artificial intelligence.
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Speaker0: Here is a clip from Dr. Ferguson.
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Speaker1: That's a good leader to say like, I don't really care about how I look in this,
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Speaker1: but I care about the mission.
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Speaker0: Broadcasting from the north central coast of California and the beautiful Redwoods,
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Speaker0: the Every Church Flourishing podcast is all about helping churches,
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Speaker0: leaders, and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,
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Speaker0: soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship
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Speaker0: and the broader kingdom of God.
0:47
Speaker0: Join hosts Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.
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Speaker0: Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal
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Speaker0: of making every church flourish.
0:59
Speaker0: Hello, everybody, and welcome into episode number 16 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast.
1:04
Speaker0: We are a ministry of the Great Commission Association of North and Central California.
1:09
Speaker0: And if you're a pastor or church leader out west and you're looking for a ministry
1:13
Speaker0: team association to join up with, we would love to hear from you,
1:17
Speaker0: just like we heard from a pastor just this week about possibly joining up with the GCA and SBC.
1:24
Speaker0: Our website is gcasbc.org. That's how you can get in touch with us.
1:31
Speaker0: Today, another action-packed episode, Gateway Seminary Vice President, Dr.
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Speaker0: Kristen Ferguson joins us again, and our co-hosts are school superintendent,
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Speaker0: Lynette Lozano, and women's ministry expert, Dr.
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Speaker0: Kathy Smith. Today, we talk about how women in the church are a fundamental
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Speaker0: key to church flourishing that no wise leader should ever overlook.
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Speaker0: We're also going to talk to Dr. Ferguson about AI.
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Speaker0: Can artificial intelligence take the place of counseling, pastors,
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Speaker0: sermon prep, all of that kind of stuff?
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Speaker0: How much should Christians lean on AI?
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Speaker0: And is there some warnings that we should probably take heed of in the realm
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Speaker0: of artificial intelligence?
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Speaker0: We've also got Cal Baptist bat student JC back with us today for a review of
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Speaker0: the South's favorite cherry beverage, Cheerwine. Does it actually contain wine?
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Speaker0: Finally, we're going to talk about prayer and pleading the blood of Jesus.
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Speaker0: Is that a thing? Is it biblical?
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Speaker0: Is there power, special power, in pleading the blood of Jesus?
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Speaker0: Maybe not, but we will discuss one key to faithful, power-packed prayer that
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Speaker0: is indeed biblical and is also often overlooked. That will be after the interview with Dr.
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Speaker0: Ferguson. For now, let's get right to it as I take a backseat in the beginning
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Speaker0: and let Dr. Smith and Ms. Lynette interview Dr.
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Speaker0: Ferguson on Women in Ministry. If you are a church leader or pastor and you
3:02
Speaker0: aren't really interested in the topic of women in ministry and want to fast
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Speaker0: forward to the rest of the podcast,
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Speaker0: actually, let me stop you right there and point you right on over to Romans
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Speaker0: chapter 16, a letter of Paul almost certainly delivered to that church by Phoebe.
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Speaker0: A female in ministry who was a benefactor of Paul himself.
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Speaker0: Read through that list of shout outs in Romans 16. If you don't really think
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Speaker0: highly of women in ministry, lots of females there.
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Speaker0: And if you think Paul didn't care about women in ministry,
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Speaker0: think again, listen well and understand the church will not flourish without
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Speaker0: the ladies of the church in their God ordained scripture called roles. So let's go.
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Speaker0: Okay, so I'm going to take a step back and we're going to talk about women in
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Speaker0: ministry in California and the West.
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Speaker0: And Kathy's got some questions and Miss Lynette, you jump in and I'm just going
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Speaker0: to kind of stretch out and get warmed up for our AI discussion,
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Speaker0: which is going to finish out the podcast.
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Speaker0: But for now, you ladies take it away.
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Speaker1: So Kristen, do you think that the church in California and the West in general
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Speaker1: is properly and so effectively?
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Speaker1: Mobilizing women in ministry roles? I guess there's never a moment in time that
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Speaker1: all people have been used to their maximum extent to do ministry.
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Speaker1: Like the scripture said, like Jesus said, like the harvest is plentiful and the workers are few.
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Speaker1: So I guess in keeping with that, I would probably say a little bit, but there's more.
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Speaker1: Or yes, but more.
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Speaker1: I don't think that women are not being used.
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Speaker1: I think I see in every church I've ever participated in, I see a numerous amount
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Speaker1: of women doing very critical gospel work in every church.
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Speaker1: I can think of my church, numerous women who, if they were not doing the service
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Speaker1: part that they are doing, our church would be much less effective at reaching
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Speaker1: our community for Christ.
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Speaker1: So I think that women are absolutely being used in our churches.
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Speaker1: But is there more to do?
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Speaker1: Like, yes, there's so much more to do.
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Speaker1: And there's so many ways to use the skills and giftings and talents and networks
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Speaker1: even and special access that only women get.
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Speaker1: I think about my friend Carola Manriquez, who also works here at Gateway. She goes to our church.
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Speaker1: She's involved in the after hours ministry. Are you guys familiar with that? It's through NAMM.
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Speaker1: Yeah. And so they go kind of like in the middle of the night down into L.A.
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Speaker1: And attempt to share the gospel and minister to women who are in sex trafficking.
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Speaker1: And there's so much that only women really can do.
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Speaker1: There are men involved in that ministry, and they serve a very particular kind
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Speaker1: of role in that ministry.
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Speaker1: But, you know, these are special moments that we need to deploy a lot more women
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Speaker1: to get a lot more work done. I agree.
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Speaker1: And being a woman in ministry, because my husband is not a pastor,
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Speaker1: I can relate to a lot of what pastors' wives go through, the loneliness and
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Speaker1: not being able to have anybody to talk to.
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Speaker1: Just being in the church and really involved, I think that it's getting better,
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Speaker1: but I think purposely...
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Speaker1: Putting into women and letting them know it's okay, because a lot of them feel
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Speaker1: restrained, and they step back because they don't feel it's their place.
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Speaker1: So giving them the permissions, but that needs to come from the leadership and
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Speaker1: the deacons and the pastor to allow those things to happen.
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Speaker1: And I think it's happening slowly.
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Speaker1: It's not happening as fast as it could be, which would actually enhance the
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Speaker1: church and the ministries, because I see women are the ones that are stepping up.
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Speaker1: A lot of the men, some men do, but more women, they're like,
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Speaker1: come on, put me out there. Let's do this.
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Speaker1: Let's do this. Yeah. And I think that one of the things that I know is very
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Speaker1: typical in churches is a lot of kind of stage time, pulpit time,
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Speaker1: Bible teacher time dedicated to
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Speaker1: really explaining and understanding those Bible passages that we all love and
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Speaker1: submit ourselves to about the different ways that men and women both serve in
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Speaker1: different contexts and different roles.
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Speaker1: But sometimes I think we lack a little creativity and opportunity that we lay
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Speaker1: before women because we are so concerned with getting those passages just right,
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Speaker1: which don't get me wrong, that's very important.
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Speaker1: We have to understand those passages so we know what God intends for the way that we serve.
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Speaker1: But in that same conversation and in that same moment,
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Speaker1: opening up all of our eyes to the variety of ways that God needs and wants women
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Speaker1: to involve themselves in the kingdom work is, I think, very exciting.
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Speaker1: We want those passages to be taught with like, we want to get up right now and go do it.
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Speaker1: You know, we want some energy and urgency for the gospel ministry.
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Speaker1: Even though there are different roles, there's so much work to be done that
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Speaker1: is very critical and very important.
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Speaker1: I think along those lines, sometimes it's easy to get caught in certain things that women
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Speaker1: Don't necessarily do in our complementarian view.
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Speaker1: And we forget, like you're saying, to be creative and encourage ways to show
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Speaker1: women where they can serve.
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Speaker1: And I know that I've seen several statistics lately that there's a lot of women
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Speaker1: that are leaving the church, especially younger women. And I read into some
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Speaker1: of why those reasonings were, why people think that, and they're still trying to figure out a lot of it.
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Speaker1: But some of it is because women, the way that we approach women's ministry and
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Speaker1: then women hasn't really changed in some churches in a really long time.
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Speaker1: And so it's focused that they some one statistics that even in 50 years,
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Speaker1: it hasn't changed that much.
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Speaker1: So we're still thinking of women as being the primary volunteers in a lot of ways in the church.
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Speaker1: But women are really busy these days, more so than they were.
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Speaker1: Well, not necessarily more so, but in a different way than they were 50 years ago.
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Speaker1: And so how the church approaches that has to start to look a little bit different.
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Speaker1: And I think that's challenging. But I know, Kristen, you and I have talked about
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Speaker1: missional complementarianism and how that works.
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Speaker1: And I saw you had written something about it's God's order fuels the mission
9:57
Speaker1: or something like that is what you said.
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Speaker1: And I think that's so important to focus on the mission and how we move forward in that.
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Speaker1: So I don't know if you can share some more insight into that in ways that that
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Speaker1: churches can really help to encourage women to be on mission and to use those gifts.
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Speaker1: So they're not going elsewhere and finding another place to serve,
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Speaker1: but they can also find that in the local church.
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Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. Missional complementarianism is just a term that my husband
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Speaker1: and I use when we shepherd other couples and we talk about this topic.
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Speaker1: And it's the best way we have found to describe the way we think that the Bible
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Speaker1: talks about complementarianism.
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Speaker1: We're very committed that a pastor should be a man, a pastor elder should be
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Speaker1: a man, and women come alongside and have critical roles to play in kingdom expansion.
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Speaker1: And so missional complementarian really helps us take our eyes to not just focus
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Speaker1: on the role part of it, not just like, well, you do these things and I do these things.
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Speaker1: I think it's helping us understand like, what are we all do?
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Speaker1: What are we as the body of Christ?
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Speaker1: Even non-pastoral men have a part in this whole missional opportunity to share
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Speaker1: the gospel and take the gospel to the kingdom.
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Speaker1: And if you focus on the kingdom of God and see, okay, we each have a part to
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Speaker1: play, whether it's gifting, role, whatever it is, we all have a part to play.
11:30
Speaker1: It helps really drive that you are to be utilized.
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Speaker1: You have a part to play. It's not just you stand over there while the rest of us do the thing.
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Speaker1: It's we are all doing this thing together, but we all have different parts to play in it.
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Speaker1: Just like 1 Corinthians 12 teaches us about spiritual gifting and the members of the body.
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Speaker1: That's literally what we're talking about when it comes to men and women as
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Speaker1: well, that we all have a role to play, even if women are not playing that leadership pastoral role.
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Speaker1: I think that's really important. And part of that,
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Speaker1: I think it involves helping women to know how to make disciples and sometimes
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Speaker1: like being intentional to do that is sometimes maybe we assume that people know
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Speaker1: more than they do. At least I've, I've come to find that, that,
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Speaker1: People know they're supposed to make disciples, but sometimes they're not really
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Speaker1: sure what that looks like.
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Speaker1: So how could the church also help women in that way? Women need the Word of
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Speaker1: God, and they need it in a serious way.
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Speaker1: Like, we want our women to be faithful to interpret the Word of God accurately.
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Speaker1: If it's important for our pastors to interpret the Word of God accurately,
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Speaker1: it's important for the people who are volunteering in the kids' ministry And
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Speaker1: the people who are also doing discipleship or counseling or sharing the gospel,
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Speaker1: every person at our church, we want them to know the Bible and we want them
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Speaker1: to interpret it faithfully so that they can take the gospel faithfully to the nations.
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Speaker1: So I think one of the most important things is don't give any group,
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Speaker1: including women, don't give them the light stuff.
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Speaker1: We all need meat. We all need the word of God.
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Speaker1: And we all need to grow in it seriously. It's a skill-building opportunity to
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Speaker1: develop your hermeneutic, to develop your understanding of the Old and New Testament,
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Speaker1: And to be able to understand the nuances of various genres in Scripture and
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Speaker1: how to get the main point out of a passage and how to interpret that faithfully
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Speaker1: and apply it faithfully. Women need to know that stuff.
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Speaker1: And so don't skimp on that stuff. Give them the meat and let them do what it
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Speaker1: says to do, and they'll find ways to serve God faithfully in that. That's a great word.
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Speaker0: But before we shift to AI, do you ladies have any more questions or you want
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Speaker0: to go further up, further in on this conversation? I love the idea that you're
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Speaker0: talking about, which is missional complementarianism.
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Speaker0: Anything else that we need to say about all that?
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Speaker1: Well, I think there's a lot more that could be said that probably not fit in this time frame.
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Speaker0: Okay, well, I think especially...
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Speaker0: Again, people in other parts of the country don't know how populous the West is.
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Speaker0: The church that is not engaging every member in ministry and understanding the
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Speaker0: spiritual gifts and the missional call of every member and understanding that
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Speaker0: the people who followed Jesus around,
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Speaker0: yes, there were 12 dudes, but there were also this group of women that were
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Speaker0: essentially always there, taking care of their needs, managing things,
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Speaker0: doing all of this incredible work. ministry.
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Speaker0: When we don't understand that dynamic, buddy, we are missing out on touchdowns
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Speaker0: we should be scoring and fruit of the kingdom we should be making.
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Speaker1: Kathy, one of the things that you and I had talked about on that same note,
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Speaker1: Chase, that you just reminded me of is really examining what leadership is in Scripture.
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Speaker1: As far as I'm aware, in Scripture, leadership is not just the leader goes and does stuff.
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Speaker1: Leadership is a deep connection with the people around and a faithful leader
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Speaker1: will take account of all of the resources, all of the skills under their care.
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Speaker1: And deploy them strategically for the gospel. So it's not a very good leader
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Speaker1: who's like, I have this huge asset here with all these skills and resources,
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Speaker1: but you don't do anything. You just stay over there because I'm the leader.
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Speaker1: And I think sometimes it's like the leader is insecure that this follower is
15:44
Speaker1: going to outshine or something.
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Speaker1: But that's actually a good, that actually looks good on the leader.
15:50
Speaker1: For the leader who says you deploy somebody who has skill and who has ability.
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Speaker1: That's a good leader to say, like, I don't really care about how I look in this,
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Speaker1: but I care about the mission.
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Speaker1: Even if other people are doing lots of good things and I'm championing them
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Speaker1: and I fall into the background like a Barnabas, you know, and I deploy other
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Speaker1: people to do it. That's good leadership.
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Speaker1: And I think often women are sometimes to the side or it's a bubble on the side
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Speaker1: and we're part of the meat. We're part of the core.
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Speaker1: We're part of the church. And we want to be deployed. We want to go and we want
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Speaker1: to share and we want to risk it all.
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Speaker1: We want women in our churches to go across the world and die for the sake of the gospel.
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Speaker1: Like, we don't want to just do the light stuff. We want to serve God with everything
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Speaker1: we have, even if it costs us everything.
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Speaker1: And I think looking at women in our churches like that will help our pastors
16:44
Speaker1: deploy them effectively.
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Speaker1: Yeah. Well, it also helps them not to be marginalized because they think when
16:49
Speaker1: they're just kind of set off in a corner, which is true for the special needs
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Speaker1: population. I was a director of special needs before.
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Speaker1: And the same thing can happen with them anytime any group of people,
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Speaker1: not just a gender, but a group of people is marginalized.
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Speaker1: They're not really being deployed in the way that the Lord wanted.
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Speaker1: And if we look at Jesus' life, He didn't marginalize any group.
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Speaker1: He didn't even marginalize women. He engaged them. He engaged sick people.
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Speaker1: He engaged poor people. He engaged rich people.
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Speaker1: He engaged all the groups of people.
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Speaker1: And I think that's a great reminder. Thank you.
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Speaker0: Yeah, it's not without reason that our missionary giving heroes in the Baptist
17:32
Speaker0: church are Annie Armstrong and Lottie Moon.
17:34
Speaker0: And not a couple of guys, because we have these great examples of ladies who
17:39
Speaker0: are incredibly fruitful and braver than 99.99% of men out there on the mission
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Speaker0: field, mobilizing and doing the work of the kingdom.
17:48
Speaker0: And maybe we don't honor them enough.
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Speaker0: Okay, let's shift gears again and talk a little bit about artificial intelligence in the church.
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Speaker0: And I want to get from you, Dr. Ferguson, your best tips on how to use AI for
18:01
Speaker0: writing my sermon. yeah i'm just kidding yeah that's a horrible thing yeah.
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Speaker1: You know it's so easy you know it really cuts your time down
18:10
Speaker0: It can man i barely have to do anything these days with gemini and chat creepy
18:16
Speaker0: no i'm just kidding but one thing i've noticed and i bet you guys have too there
18:20
Speaker0: is a very vocal group of people online and even in person who are almost like
18:27
Speaker0: revolutionaries against AI.
18:30
Speaker0: They think it's wicked and evil. But I just saw a survey that Barna and Glue
18:36
Speaker0: put out that I found really, really interesting.
18:39
Speaker0: And it basically showed that pastors and Christians in general have a slightly
18:46
Speaker0: more positive view of AI in terms of saying AI is making the world a better
18:53
Speaker0: place than the general population.
18:56
Speaker0: Now, at the same time, they're more likely to agree with the statement that
19:02
Speaker0: AI is a threat than the general population.
19:05
Speaker0: So I don't know how you can out of one side of your mouth say it's making the
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Speaker0: world a better place and the other side you say it's a big threat.
19:11
Speaker0: But look, so many people are using AI right now.
19:15
Speaker0: I think in 10 years it is going to
19:16
Speaker0: be as ubiquitous and commonplace as the Internet is, maybe even more so.
19:21
Speaker0: Dr. Ferguson, what are your thoughts on AI? How are you encountering it in the seminary?
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Speaker0: Is it vexing your life that students are writing all their papers with AI?
19:31
Speaker0: What are your views here?
19:33
Speaker1: Oh, my goodness. Thank you. I love this topic, actually.
19:36
Speaker1: About a year and a half ago, I did my academic convocation.
19:41
Speaker1: Every semester, one of the faculty members gives a paper.
19:44
Speaker1: I saw that. Yeah. And so my academic convocation was on educating humans in the age of AI.
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Speaker1: So I have lots of opinions and thoughts about this. And I am a huge AI user.
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Speaker1: So full confession, I do use AI. But I promise you, I did not use AI to formulate
20:02
Speaker1: anything that I said today.
20:05
Speaker1: So, you know what's really interesting is because I studied a lot of online
20:09
Speaker1: education, I see so many patterns that are very similar as far as like this reaction.
20:15
Speaker1: To a new technology. So like when online education became more and more popular,
20:21
Speaker1: there are these two camps of like, it's the worst thing ever,
20:24
Speaker1: it's going to ruin everything.
20:26
Speaker1: Or it's like the best thing ever. And it's going to be our savior of all things.
20:30
Speaker1: It's like always these two like polar opposites.
20:33
Speaker1: And I've always felt that neither are looking at it in quite the right way.
20:39
Speaker1: And that's very common in AI literature, even secular discussions about AI.
20:45
Speaker1: It's either going to be Armageddon or utopia, you know, either one,
20:49
Speaker1: maybe a little boat somehow.
20:50
Speaker1: I don't know. But it's either going to be the end of humans as we know it,
20:55
Speaker1: or humans are going to basically enter into heaven now because we're never going
20:59
Speaker1: to have to do anything ever again.
21:00
Speaker1: And so I think I think what's important is that we actually take a little more
21:06
Speaker1: time and don't opt for one of those easy camps.
21:10
Speaker1: I truly think it's just going to take more work. In order to land at a truly
21:14
Speaker1: biblical perspective of AI, it's not going to be enough to just say no completely
21:19
Speaker1: to it or yes completely to it. That's the easy route either way.
21:24
Speaker1: I think if you decide no to AI
21:25
Speaker1: and you're just like, it's going to be Armageddon, let's try to stop it.
21:30
Speaker1: I just think you're in a fruitless endeavor. Like, I agree with you, Chase.
21:35
Speaker1: This is absolutely becoming inescapable and it's becoming integrated in all
21:40
Speaker1: of the tools that we've typically already adopted, that the whole,
21:43
Speaker1: you know, United States has already adopted and it's becoming integrated in
21:47
Speaker1: all of these things, in our phones and things like that.
21:50
Speaker1: So it's going to be, unless we're going to take the route of like a more Amish
21:54
Speaker1: kind of withdrawal, it's going to be very part of our culture.
21:59
Speaker1: So we have to do the hard work ethically to determine how we're going to engage,
22:04
Speaker1: if we should engage, why we should engage or why not.
22:07
Speaker1: And so I think what becomes very important in this conversation is our image
22:13
Speaker1: bearing nature and our role as the image of God.
22:17
Speaker1: And what are the things in this world that are only for humans?
22:23
Speaker1: What are those things that are only for humans?
22:26
Speaker1: A good example of this, like kind of analogy, is like, I could not deploy my
22:31
Speaker1: AI robot to go on a date with my husband.
22:34
Speaker1: That doesn't work. It requires my personhood.
22:38
Speaker1: I, as a human person, need to engage with my husband as a human person.
22:44
Speaker1: Those are moments that are not replaceable by AI.
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Speaker1: And the same is true with our relationship with God. I think it's one of the
22:52
Speaker1: biggest threats to Christianity in the age of AI is that it is so easy to get answers.
22:59
Speaker1: And we want a bullet point, easy to read.
23:04
Speaker1: It takes us two seconds to get through it. When reading the Word of God takes
23:09
Speaker1: some effort. It takes some discipline. It takes interpretation.
23:13
Speaker1: It takes understanding the biblical context. It's harder than going to AI and
23:17
Speaker1: being like, what should I do? What should I do in this situation?
23:20
Speaker1: And I think it's going to be so tempting for us as Christians to constantly
23:24
Speaker1: go to AI instead of going to God in prayer or instead of going to the word of God.
23:29
Speaker1: And so there's going to have to be this conscious understanding that I as a
23:34
Speaker1: human being, as an image bearer of God, I'm created to know God through his word.
23:40
Speaker1: And I am created to commune with the living, real, most high God through prayer
23:47
Speaker1: and through doing His will in this world.
23:50
Speaker1: And I cannot do that.
23:53
Speaker1: In AI. Like AI is not the replacement for a real active living relationship
23:58
Speaker1: with the real living God.
24:00
Speaker1: AI is not the living God. And I almost think there's this analogy with like
24:04
Speaker1: idols, where like idolatry in the Old Testament, they, you know,
24:08
Speaker1: we hear in Isaiah where it says they don't speak and they don't hear. AI actually talks.
24:14
Speaker1: So it's really tempting to replace God.
24:18
Speaker1: And we don't say it that way. We wouldn't be like, oh, I worship AI.
24:21
Speaker1: No one is saying that they're worshiping AI.
24:24
Speaker1: But in an effect, in reality, functionally, we could be going to AI and depending
24:29
Speaker1: on AI for so much of what we do day to day that we're replacing our dependence with God.
24:34
Speaker1: So we need to think as Christians about our image-bearing nature,
24:39
Speaker1: our unique role and dignity and responsibility in this world to know God and
24:46
Speaker1: to make him known and then put AI in its right place.
24:49
Speaker1: But I do think AI can serve some of that.
24:53
Speaker1: Like, for instance, I think AI is so helpful to understand other worldviews
24:58
Speaker1: and like asking it questions about like, okay, what would someone from this
25:02
Speaker1: culture think about in this way?
25:05
Speaker1: And like, there's just so many helpful things like strategizing and ideas and
25:11
Speaker1: things that can come from development with AI, but it can never replace our
25:15
Speaker1: intimate connection with God and his work. So hopefully that's a snapshot.
25:20
Speaker0: That's a great perspective. I will add that to this, that if somebody is not
25:26
Speaker0: afraid of using Google to do research, they shouldn't be afraid of using AI.
25:31
Speaker0: AI is different than Google, and it can be profoundly effective at certain searches
25:39
Speaker0: if you use it at the right way.
25:40
Speaker0: And Dr. Ferguson has warned us against the dangers of leaning on AI for spiritual
25:47
Speaker0: guidance from God and for intimacy with God. And I think that's a huge one.
25:51
Speaker0: I'll add to that, on the other hand, on the other side of the equation,
25:55
Speaker0: in AI, we've talked years about the Turing test and the ability of an artificial
26:00
Speaker0: intelligence to fool a majority of humans that they are talking to a human.
26:05
Speaker0: And I think we're past that. And I think most researchers would agree.
26:09
Speaker0: We've passed that. The AI can pass as humans.
26:13
Speaker0: And in addition to the danger you're warning us about,
26:16
Speaker0: I would add to it, and this I think is a significant fear as well,
26:20
Speaker0: is that people will rely on AI for deep spiritual conversations that they should
26:27
Speaker0: be having in the body of Christ, that it will become a replacement for intimacy in the church,
26:34
Speaker0: maybe even intimacy between a husband and a wife.
26:36
Speaker0: But AI doesn't disagree with you as much.
26:40
Speaker0: It doesn't challenge you as much. It doesn't confront you as much.
26:43
Speaker0: It doesn't know your deepest sins and desires and heart.
26:47
Speaker0: It knows a lot about you, but it can't know you as well as somebody else in
26:51
Speaker0: the body of Christ. It will not be iron sharpening iron, so to speak.
26:55
Speaker1: And even if you tell it, tell me all my weaknesses and criticisms and,
26:59
Speaker1: you know, tell me all these things.
27:01
Speaker1: Like you can you can make AI accommodate the weaknesses that you think are in
27:06
Speaker1: AI, like remove all of your phrases and just give it to me straight.
27:10
Speaker1: Like you can craft AI to do that for you, which is kind of like,
27:14
Speaker1: OK, maybe if we just design it right.
27:16
Speaker1: But I think that the core is even if you can design AI to to effectively do
27:21
Speaker1: a lot of those things at the at the end of the day, AI is not real. It is not a real being.
27:28
Speaker1: We have a real living God who actually works in this world, who really exists,
27:35
Speaker1: who wants to know us, who is available to us, and who's died to save us.
27:39
Speaker1: We have a God who is able to do far more than AI could ever do.
27:45
Speaker1: God can make a way for things to happen that AI could never do.
27:49
Speaker1: And I think it's going to be so tempting to try to think that AI can solve all
27:53
Speaker1: the problems when we have a real and living God who is actively at work through
27:57
Speaker1: our problems to do more than just solve problems.
28:01
Speaker1: He's bringing about his kingdom in this world.
28:03
Speaker0: Yeah. Fantastic.
28:05
Speaker1: AI can't love either. It can't have feelings or emotions.
28:09
Speaker1: And we know that's true, but we sometimes do this thing.
28:14
Speaker1: My family kind of play around and ask questions to our AI just to be funny.
28:19
Speaker1: And so I asked her if she loved me and she said, I'm incapable of,
28:24
Speaker1: I haven't figured out human emotions yet.
28:26
Speaker1: And I think that's so really important though. It's where that was funny.
28:30
Speaker1: But it's also like a real reminder that emotions are meant for humans and God
28:36
Speaker1: to experience together. It's not something that can be replaced artificially. So true.
28:41
Speaker0: So true. Absolutely, Kathy. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation.
28:44
Speaker0: I have one more quick question before we close out.
28:48
Speaker0: Dr. Ferguson, I'm going to ask this of everybody. The question is going to be, what are you reading?
28:52
Speaker0: And Dr. Ferguson, I know you read smart people books like Jason Thacker's The
28:57
Speaker0: Age of AI and like Heart Deep Teaching and Ms.
29:01
Speaker0: Ortlund's Help, I'm Married to the Pastor. I know you read smart people books
29:04
Speaker0: and maybe your answer is going to be a smart person book.
29:07
Speaker0: But if that's the book you read for fun, a smart person book, that's great.
29:11
Speaker0: But I'm going to ask, what are the books you're reading right now or listening
29:15
Speaker0: to? Because I count that. What are the books right now you guys are listening to?
29:19
Speaker0: Fun might be too whimsical.
29:23
Speaker0: I read for fun and I read for the good reasons too.
29:26
Speaker0: But what are you guys reading for fun these days that enriches your soul,
29:30
Speaker0: that blesses you, that is maybe a step above streaming?
29:34
Speaker1: Are you talking about Magic Treehouse with my kids? Because that's active every night.
29:39
Speaker0: Those aren't bad books. I enjoy some of those books with the kids.
29:43
Speaker0: Some of them are tedious and terrible, but Magic Treehouse is pretty good.
29:47
Speaker1: I got some variety for you, Chase.
29:50
Speaker1: It is not just smart people books. I don't even know if I've got time for a
29:54
Speaker1: lot of Smart People books, but I'm looking around.
29:56
Speaker1: I've got some VBS materials over here that I've been reading very intently.
30:02
Speaker1: Magic Treehouse, for sure, at home. But I also have our biblical counseling.
30:07
Speaker1: Oh, it's backwards on the screen. But our biblical counseling professor recommended this one.
30:11
Speaker1: To me, it's called The Gospel for Disordered Lives by Robert Jones,
30:15
Speaker1: Kristen Kellen, and Rob Green.
30:17
Speaker1: And I'm really enjoying that as well. I really appreciate so much personal growth
30:23
Speaker1: from biblical counseling and just their dependence on the Word of God.
30:26
Speaker1: So I really enjoy reading biblical counseling books, but I'm enjoying that one a lot as well.
30:31
Speaker0: Fantastic. Ladies?
30:32
Speaker1: I, too, am reading some curriculum books to revamp our stuff through ACSI.
30:38
Speaker1: And we're in the middle of doing a survey for our K-8 school.
30:43
Speaker1: So looking for stuff for that.
30:46
Speaker1: But also looking forward to a conference that I'm going to attend in Dallas,
30:50
Speaker1: the Outcomes Conference, in a couple weeks.
30:53
Speaker1: So they always have some great books for personal growth. I'm ready for some personal growth books.
30:58
Speaker0: All right.
30:58
Speaker1: I'm actually rereading this book with a friend, but it's Instruments in the
31:03
Speaker1: Redeemer's Hand by Paul David Trigger.
31:05
Speaker1: And it's a great biblical counseling resource as well, but it's just been just a great reminder.
31:10
Speaker1: In mentoring relationships, but in my own personal relationships.
31:15
Speaker1: Also, I think it's just how I love others, my family, my church,
31:20
Speaker1: everything, and seeing things through a different lens has been really great.
31:24
Speaker1: And I'm also going through the See For Yourself.
31:28
Speaker1: It's a new kind of Bible study that came out by Kelly Needham.
31:33
Speaker1: Well, her husband wrote one too for men, but this one's for women.
31:36
Speaker1: And I'm reading it not as a Bible study, but as a way to help others to learn how to study the Bible.
31:44
Speaker1: And so that's, I mean, that's fun for me.
31:46
Speaker1: It's not as fun as maybe as Magic Treehouse, but it is really exciting.
31:52
Speaker1: But just as important, Kathy, just as important. It is very important.
31:56
Speaker1: It is very important. And it's not like a work for me. Like I just find those
32:00
Speaker1: kinds of things very interesting.
32:02
Speaker0: Awesome. Well, you guys are probably a lot more mature than me.
32:05
Speaker0: I feel pressured to say I'm reading a lot of the early church fathers right now, and that is true.
32:10
Speaker0: But what I really like to read is mystery books, and I plow through them.
32:14
Speaker0: And right now I'm reading the Mysterious Benedict Society series, which is for kids.
32:19
Speaker0: And I'm not a kid, but I enjoy it. And I'm also reading the Grantchester series by James Bruncey,
32:26
Speaker0: which is about a Church of England pastor called Sidney Chambers,
32:30
Speaker0: who is a detective, which is probably my fantasy to be a pastor and detective
32:35
Speaker0: on the side. It's a really interesting book.
32:38
Speaker0: Sidney Chambers is a good bit more liberal than I am, even though he believes
32:42
Speaker0: in the resurrection of Jesus.
32:44
Speaker0: But he constantly struggles with putting his wife and his child in the right
32:50
Speaker0: place of priorities in his life and ministry while he's working and solving
32:55
Speaker0: all these mysterious detective mystery kind of things and murders.
32:59
Speaker0: It's high-level writing, I think. I appreciate the struggle with prioritizing for a pastor.
33:04
Speaker0: I've thoroughly enjoyed myself, and this has been a very edifying conversation.
33:09
Speaker0: Thank you so much for your time, and thank you all for listening in.
33:13
Speaker0: What a blast to have had Dr. Ferguson with us for the last two episodes.
33:17
Speaker0: She represents Gateway Seminary very well.
33:20
Speaker0: Next up, we continue our discussion of women in ministry with Dr.
33:24
Speaker0: Kathy Smith, and we will also have Pastor Anthony Ferguson on, Dr.
33:29
Speaker0: Kristen Ferguson's husband, to talk about the Yellow Card Initiative,
33:32
Speaker0: which is an SBC outreach aimed at those attending the World Cup games in the Bay Area this summer.
33:39
Speaker0: We're also going to have Pastor CJ talking to us about prayer yet again,
33:43
Speaker0: and it's going to be a fantastic episode.
33:46
Speaker0: Hey, today for the show, we're going to be reviewing North Carolina's own Cheerwine.
33:51
Speaker0: How has one small independent soft drink managed to survive for literally over
33:57
Speaker0: 100 years and not be bought out by Pepsi or Coke or anybody else.
34:03
Speaker0: I'm going to give you some Cheerwine trivia. You ready, JC? Let's hear it. Okay.
34:07
Speaker0: Number one, it's not wine, but it's wine colored.
34:10
Speaker0: You can kind of see that, right? Wine colored. It got its name from that color.
34:16
Speaker0: It's cherry and deep burgundy.
34:18
Speaker0: And it's a non-alcoholic cherry beverage made in Salisbury, North Carolina.
34:22
Speaker0: Number two, It was created because of a sugar shortage.
34:26
Speaker0: The cherry made it to where you could have a really nice, sweet tasting soda with less sugar.
34:33
Speaker0: And number three, this has been owned by the same family, the Peeler family, for over 100 years.
34:40
Speaker0: So what do you think, JC? How does it smell? Smells good. Yeah,
34:43
Speaker0: I'm excited to try this one. I was hoping I could smell the cherry.
34:47
Speaker0: I can't smell it yet. By the way, this was donated to the show.
34:52
Speaker0: Every Church Flourishing Podcast, everychurchflourishing.com by Virginia listener
34:56
Speaker0: Jesse Worrell. Well, let's give it a shot.
35:00
Speaker0: Mmm. It definitely tastes the cherry there. It's way more cherry than cherry Coke, right?
35:07
Speaker0: Absolutely. Since 1917, this is full on. This is not a diet,
35:12
Speaker0: so it's definitely sweeter than diet soda.
35:15
Speaker0: Got a good mouth feel. It's a little bit like a few cherries were squeezed into
35:20
Speaker0: this thing. It's really cherry forward.
35:22
Speaker0: Honestly, I think it's great. I'm kind of tasting, I don't know why,
35:26
Speaker0: it kind of gives off Coke Zero with cherry.
35:29
Speaker0: I'm a big fan of Coke Zero. That's some bonus points as well.
35:33
Speaker0: I like the cherry taste though. I do too. I love this.
35:36
Speaker0: This is not, as you say, it's not very different from Coke Zero or Cherry Coke,
35:43
Speaker0: but it's just a little more cherry. And I'll give you a bonus.
35:46
Speaker0: It's made, and I don't know if you can see this on the video,
35:49
Speaker0: it's made with real cane sugar, not high fructose corn syrup. So that's great.
35:55
Speaker0: All right, JC, out of five Spurgeons, what are you going to give it? Kind of tricky.
35:59
Speaker0: It's not got a lot going on. It tastes good and I enjoy it, but it's not super exciting.
36:07
Speaker0: But for a regular soda, I would say it's good, but on the exciting scale,
36:13
Speaker0: like, man, this is an interesting soda, kind of takes it down some points. I would say.
36:18
Speaker0: Let's go with 3.9 Spurgeons. Solid taste, well-rounded, but not super interesting.
36:25
Speaker0: I got you. You're looking for something a little bolder. I'm going to give it
36:29
Speaker0: four and three quarters Spurgeons. I would say this is delicious.
36:32
Speaker0: It's tasty. It's simple, as you say, but well worth drinking.
36:38
Speaker0: Okay. Thanks, JC. Enjoy your salmon and honey butter. Sounds good.
36:41
Speaker0: Thank you. Thank you, JC.
36:43
Speaker0: One more topic, and it's an important one. Should Christians plead the blood
36:48
Speaker0: of Jesus and a better key to triumphant prayer?
36:52
Speaker0: So the central importance of blood in both the Old Testament and the New Testament
36:56
Speaker0: is illustrated by the fact that the phrase, the blood,
37:00
Speaker0: appears over 125 times in most major English translations of the Bible,
37:06
Speaker0: and the word blood itself appears nearly 400 times.
37:10
Speaker0: Perhaps you have heard somebody use the phrase, quote, I plead the blood of Jesus, as in P-L-E-A-D.
37:18
Speaker0: You've heard that maybe in a prayer, church setting, or something like that.
37:22
Speaker0: Generally, when people say that, they mean something like, I apply the blood
37:27
Speaker0: of Jesus to this situation.
37:29
Speaker0: Essentially, asking for Jesus' blood to cover us, or cover a prayer request,
37:34
Speaker0: or cover a sick person, or some sort of situation in some way.
37:38
Speaker0: In many ways, pleading the blood of Jesus is kind of a fairly new practice in the church,
37:43
Speaker0: and it seems to have its roots in the 1906 Azusa Street Revival in California
37:49
Speaker0: under the ministry of the Pentecostal preacher William Seymour.
37:53
Speaker0: Who often did plead the blood of Jesus over those he prayed for.
37:58
Speaker0: Is that a biblical practice?
38:01
Speaker0: Well, strictly speaking, it's not. There seems to be no example in the Bible
38:06
Speaker0: of anybody using the phrase, I plead the blood of Jesus, nor can I find any example of...
38:13
Speaker0: Really anything close to such a thing.
38:16
Speaker0: Many who plead the blood of Jesus cite Revelation 12, verse 11,
38:21
Speaker0: which says, They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word
38:26
Speaker0: of their testimony, for they love not their lives even unto death.
38:31
Speaker0: Now, as Pastor Wanjiro Nganganga of TGC Africa notes, At first glance,
38:38
Speaker0: this verse, Revelation 12, 11, seems to suggest that believers should invoke
38:43
Speaker0: the blood of Jesus to gain fresh victory over Satan and his works in their daily lives.
38:49
Speaker0: However, a deeper look at the context discloses a very different message.
38:54
Speaker0: The victory has already been accomplished through Christ's finished work on the cross.
39:01
Speaker0: Revelation 12 is part of a vision describing the conflict between God's people
39:05
Speaker0: and Satan, And Revelation 12, 11 teaches us that believers overcome Satan by two means.
39:12
Speaker0: The first is the blood of the Lamb, referring to Christ's atoning sacrifice
39:17
Speaker0: on the cross, which secures their redemption.
39:21
Speaker0: It represents the full payment for sin and the triumph over Satan's accusations.
39:28
Speaker0: See, for instance, Colossians 2, 14, 15, Revelation 1, verse 5.
39:32
Speaker0: The second is the word of their testimony, which underscores their faithfulness
39:38
Speaker0: and perseverance in the gospel.
39:40
Speaker0: Again, see Revelation 19.10. A plain reading of Revelation 12.11 in its proper
39:46
Speaker0: context reveals that it isn't instructing believers to plead or apply Jesus'
39:54
Speaker0: blood in prayer for victory over daily circumstances.
39:57
Speaker0: Instead, it points to the fact that this victory has already been accomplished
40:03
Speaker0: through Christ's finished work on the cross.
40:07
Speaker0: There is indeed power in the blood of Jesus, but that power is the power of the blood of
40:11
Speaker0: is not ours to command any more than angels are ours to command.
40:16
Speaker0: And I'm not really sure what pleading the blood is meant to accomplish.
40:21
Speaker0: We don't have magic phrases or incantations in the Bible or in the church,
40:27
Speaker0: although some people do pray in the name of Jesus and use that phrase in Jesus'
40:33
Speaker0: name as sort of a magic incantation.
40:36
Speaker0: There aren't hidden or secret phrases or expressions known only to a few of
40:42
Speaker0: the really kind of inner circle and elite Christians that,
40:46
Speaker0: when used, can particularly invoke the power of God in an extra sort of way. Think about it this way.
40:54
Speaker0: If you're praying for somebody and you use the phrase, I plead the blood of
40:59
Speaker0: Jesus, do you expect that your use of that phrase gives your prayer extra power or oomph?
41:07
Speaker0: Does it make your prayer more effective?
41:09
Speaker0: Do demons flee when we plead the blood of Jesus, but hang around and kind of
41:15
Speaker0: laugh at us when we don't use that phrase?
41:18
Speaker0: Does actually somehow, someway.
41:21
Speaker0: God hear that and either spiritually or physically or something actually pour
41:29
Speaker0: out a measure of the blood of Jesus on a person or on a situation when we say that? I don't think so.
41:37
Speaker0: I don't think pleading the blood of Jesus gives extra power and effect to our prayers.
41:43
Speaker0: And when we think that that does or things like that do, it's almost like we're
41:50
Speaker0: being kind of superstitious.
41:53
Speaker0: Our faith can rest in the power of our word phrases and our practices rather
41:59
Speaker0: than God or Jesus himself.
42:02
Speaker0: It reminds me kind of the phrase, if you've ever watched like vampire movies
42:07
Speaker0: or whatever, the blood of Christ compels you or the power of Christ compels you.
42:12
Speaker0: Like I said, you see that in exorcist-type movies or horror movies or whatever.
42:17
Speaker0: In most of those movies, it's clear that they expect that their accoutrements
42:22
Speaker0: of exorcism, like holy water, specific phrases, signs of the cross.
42:27
Speaker0: Ornate crosses, etc., will have this kind of power to drive demonic beings away.
42:35
Speaker0: God has power over demons. Water blessed by mortal humans does not.
42:42
Speaker0: Jesus rules over demons and commands them to depart, but phrases and signs and
42:48
Speaker0: even cross-shaped items do not have power.
42:52
Speaker0: Put your faith in Christ and God and not in ceremonies or phrases or incantations or objects.
43:01
Speaker0: What has the power to drive demons away?
43:04
Speaker0: Well, here's what the Bible says, and I note that there's no magical phrases
43:08
Speaker0: or magical prayers offered here.
43:10
Speaker0: James 4, 7 says, therefore, submit to God, resist the devil,
43:15
Speaker0: and he will flee from you.
43:17
Speaker0: Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. I'm not really saying so much
43:21
Speaker0: that it is a sin to, quote, plead the blood of Jesus,
43:25
Speaker0: but I'm suggesting that we should probably distance ourselves from practices that we see no saint,
43:32
Speaker0: nobody at all doing in Scripture and that we find no basis for whatsoever in Scripture.
43:40
Speaker0: The blood of Jesus is not an abstract concept for us to control and invoke.
43:47
Speaker0: It's not our prayers. It's not our invocations, our phrases or whatever that
43:52
Speaker0: has the power to heal, to bring light to darkness, to encourage or rebuke the enemy.
43:58
Speaker0: It's Jesus Christ himself, crucified, risen, glorified, and exalted.
44:03
Speaker0: It is he who is the power and in prayer. Indeed, Christians...
44:08
Speaker0: Can become partakers of that presence and power of Christ, but not at all in
44:14
Speaker0: a spell-wielding sort of magic word, incantational way.
44:20
Speaker0: The effectual, fervent prayer of the righteous is indeed powerful in its effect,
44:26
Speaker0: as James says, but not because of some magic power,
44:30
Speaker0: but because Almighty God moves on behalf of the prayers of His people,
44:35
Speaker0: which gets us to what is indeed a key to powerful prayer that is biblical and
44:41
Speaker0: is not akin to Christian spellcasting or superstition.
44:46
Speaker0: Allow me to tag in hero of the faith and giant of prayer, George Mueller.
44:51
Speaker0: A man who cataloged and documented over 50,000 answered prayers,
44:58
Speaker0: 30,000 of which were answered the same day he prayed them.
45:03
Speaker0: I want you to hear that number again. He literally wrote in his journals of
45:09
Speaker0: 50,000 prayers he prayed that were answered specifically by God,
45:16
Speaker0: and 30,000 of them were answered the same day he prayed them.
45:23
Speaker0: Has there ever been a more mighty man of prayer than George Mueller?
45:27
Speaker0: If there was, I don't know of them.
45:29
Speaker0: This is what he says about a somewhat unknown key to powerful prayer.
45:37
Speaker0: It is as plain to me as anything that the first thing the child of God has to
45:41
Speaker0: do morning by morning is to obtain food for his inner man.
45:46
Speaker0: As the outward man is not fit for work for any length of time except we take
45:51
Speaker0: food, and as this is one of the first things we do in the morning,
45:55
Speaker0: so it should be with the inner man, the inner person.
45:58
Speaker0: We should take food for that as everyone must allow.
46:02
Speaker0: Now, what is the food for the inner man?
46:04
Speaker0: Not prayer, but the word of God.
46:07
Speaker0: And here again, not the simple reading of the word of God so that it only passes
46:13
Speaker0: through our minds just as water runs through a pipe, but considering what we read.
46:19
Speaker0: Pondering over it and applying it to our hearts.
46:23
Speaker0: When we pray, we speak to God. Now, prayer, in order to be continued for any
46:28
Speaker0: length of time in any other than a formal manner, requires, generally speaking,
46:34
Speaker0: a measure of strength or godly desire.
46:37
Speaker0: And the season, therefore, when this exercise of the soul can be most effectually
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Speaker0: performed is after the inner man has been nourished by meditation on the word of God,
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Speaker0: where we find our father speaking to us to encourage us.
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Speaker0: To comfort us, to instruct us, to humble us, to reprove us.
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Speaker0: We may therefore profitably meditate with God's blessing, though we are ever so weak spiritually.
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Speaker0: The weaker we are, the more we
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Speaker0: need meditation on the word of God for the strengthening of our inner man.
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Speaker0: There is thus far less to be feared from wandering of mind than if we give ourselves
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Speaker0: to prayer without having had previously time for meditation.
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Speaker0: I dwell, says Mueller, so particularly on this point because of the immense
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Speaker0: spiritual profit and refreshment I am conscious of having derived from it myself,
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Speaker0: and I affectionately and solemnly beseech all my fellow believers to ponder this matter.
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Speaker0: Dear friends, the hidden power of prayer is not at all in a particular incantation
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Speaker0: or phrase we pray, but if we would have powerful prayer lives,
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Speaker0: let us do as Mueller suggests and go first to the Word of God and feast on it
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Speaker0: and meditate on it so that built up in faith,
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Speaker0: we might pray prayers that are powerful and effectual because we are praying
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Speaker0: in faith to the one who can indeed move mountains with but a word or a thought.
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Speaker0: Well, I want to point you as we close out to our website for the podcast.
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Speaker0: Everychurchflourishing.com. It's so helpful when you leave a review for us on
48:31
Speaker0: Apple Podcasts and tell a friend about the show.
48:35
Speaker0: And I also want to point you to the website for our Association of Churches,
48:40
Speaker0: which sponsors this podcast.
48:41
Speaker0: You can find it at gcasbc.org. Go check that out today and see what's all is
48:49
Speaker0: going on in the Great Commission Association.
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Speaker0: Thanks for listening. Good day to you and Godspeed.