Latest / Fit Happens: Why CEOs and Leaders Succeed or Fail / Founder, Investor, Activist, Emmy Winner: Dave Lu

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Founder, Investor, Activist, Emmy Winner: Dave Lu · Fit Happens: Why CEOs and Leaders Succeed or Fail

• Jason Baumgarten 00:00 The perfect resume nearly kept Dave Lu from the career he was built for. Dave is the founder of Hyphen Capital, the co founder of Fanpop, and the man who put the word enough across a full page of the Wall Street Journal, and an Emmy winning producer. Jason Baumgarten 00:14 Today we're asking whether a great career comes from climbing a ladder or from finding the one room where you're the person who wins. Jason Baumgarten 00:21 I'm excited to welcome Dave Lu to the show. Welcome to Fit Happens. Dave Lu 00:25 Thanks for having me, Jason. Jason Baumgarten 00:26 Absolutely. Well, Dave, I'll start with an easy one. What was your first paid job ever? Dave Lu 00:31 Oh, first paid job ever. I did a paper route in fifth grade and then I delivered Chinese food in high school for a friend's parents restaurant in New Jersey. But after that was internships and then I became a consultant out of actually graduating from Penn here in San Francisco. Jason Baumgarten 00:50 I always like to start with the first job. It gives people a little perspective on your own journey. So we're going to go back actually to those early days. Jason Baumgarten 00:58 You grew up in Somerset, New Jersey, and you've said you were the only Asian kid in your class until your family moved to Princeton in fifth grade. Jason Baumgarten 01:07 What did being the other teach you that you still use? And what do you look back and think it cost you? Dave Lu 01:14 Yeah, I mean, I think growing up when I was from like 3 years old, after moving from Queens to Somerset until 5th grade, I was one of two Asian kids in the school in Somerset, in elementary school. Dave Lu 01:27 And I mean a lot of it was, you know, survival skills because most other kids were white and black. And then it was me and my fast best friend, the other, he happened to be Taiwanese American too, that lived across the street. Dave Lu 01:39 So we became best friends like literally because he was across the street. I think for me it was very much, you know, I would get teased or bullied, but I think it was learning about how to stand up for myself back then and not be quiet because then I'd be a target if I was quiet. Dave Lu 01:56 So I remember learning to be, I mean I was already pretty quick witted but using my words to fight back made people back off and leave me alone. Dave Lu 02:06 You know, it was the yo mama jokes and this and that and just like surviving like. And so because I would tear other kids apart, they would not want to get near me. Dave Lu 02:16 So but it was definitely that and you know, few fights here and there, but I mean I think I stood my ground. But it was, it toughened me up pretty quick because it was not like, you know, when you stick out then you're an easy target for others. Dave Lu 02:28 So. But when I moved to Princeton, it was very different because it was about 30% east and south Asian. Dave Lu 02:34 And so I found, you know, others like me, and it just felt less alone. And for me, that was, you know, a big change from growing up in Somerset. Jason Baumgarten 02:45 You told a story about a moment when you were a kid at a New Jersey mall when your dad started yelling at a family that cut in line for a kiddie train ride. Jason Baumgarten 02:55 And this really struck me. And we're both from immigrant families. Different stories. But a lot of the things you talk about really made an impact on me. Jason Baumgarten 03:05 And you said you and your mom went to hide in a store, kind of mortified. But then people came up to thank your dad. Jason Baumgarten 03:13 What did that sort of rewire for you when you think back on that moment? Dave Lu 03:16 Yeah, I mean, we were in Woodbridge Mall in New Jersey. I remember vividly we hid out in a KB toy store, and my dad was causing a scene. Dave Lu 03:24 And it was just really embarrassing for my mom and I because we're like, oh, you know, growing up, we're raised to not draw attention to ourselves. Dave Lu 03:32 Meanwhile, my dad's drawing a lot of attention to us in the middle of the mall. But I think I was so concerned with kind of that saving face and not being ashamed and humiliated or having attention drawn to me. Dave Lu 03:45 But my dad stood up for what was right because all the families behind us were also upset that this family is ignoring us and just acted like we weren't even there and just cut in front of us. Dave Lu 03:53 And so, you know, I think it taught me that standing up for others and for yourself, it really does mean a lot to people. Dave Lu 04:01 And I think sometimes more people will say nothing than, you know, than they will say something. And so when someone does that on your behalf, they're grateful for that, but it doesn't mean that they would have done it themselves. Dave Lu 04:12 But it reminded me that I could be that person that does speak up for others. And the other lesson was not caring as much about what other people think of me if it's doing the right thing. Jason Baumgarten 04:22 It's such a powerful lesson to not make the perception drive your decision, but sort of what's right or what do you think is the right thing to do. Jason Baumgarten 04:31 And your parents had come from Taiwan for grad school in the 60s, your dad to Tulsa, your mom to Fresno. They didn't know anyone. Jason Baumgarten 04:39 And one of the things you've talked about over the years is the scarcity mindset that that brings to people. What's something that you recognize in your own early journey where you look back and go, man, I was operating with that scarcity mindset, even if you didn't know it at the time. Dave Lu 04:56 Yeah, I mean, I think it's very much the. If you don't do everything by the book and kind of as planned out for you to build that perfect resume, you will not have success or security. Dave Lu 05:09 Like, if you do not get into Ivy League school, you're a failure. If you do not get this job, you're a failure. At some point, it was not my parents voice in my head because they didn't even know what consulting was. They didn't know what investment banking was. They were never exposed. The three jobs were engineer, lawyer, doctor. Dave Lu 05:24 And so, I mean, my friend Deb Liu, you know, she said the only four jobs a parent, like an Asian parent knows is lawyer, doctor, engineer and failure consultant and banker. Dave Lu 05:35 They don't know what that is. But at that point it was me that was driving that kind of narrative in my own head because I was at Wharton undergrad, every other kid was gunning for Goldman Sachs or McKinsey. Dave Lu 05:45 And so those are the only options, right? If that's the best of the best, that's what I have to do. But it's always what does everyone else value as being the best option? Dave Lu 05:55 So I just looked to others to kind of give me that guidance. I wasn't even thinking about any other career options. It was like, oh, I have to do one of these two jobs. Dave Lu 06:03 And so majored in finance, majored in strategic management. The two things that would get me into these two jobs and so recruited, got offers from JP Morgan and other consulting firms and decided to go to San Francisco to become a consultant. Dave Lu 06:15 And so it was a safe route. And so then, you know, when I quit after one year realizing I hate this, I'm like in Fort Worth, Texas, like working at Kaiser. Dave Lu 06:26 And yeah, it was just like this miserable. And I thought, and I quit. I couldn't take it because I was like, this is not for me. Dave Lu 06:32 I joined some northern startup for like a few months and then decided to go work at Yahoo. But again, telling my parents, my parents, I think they only knew about Yahoo because Jerry Yang was, you know, Taiwanese and the CEO and founders were like, oh, okay, tell our friends about that. Dave Lu 06:47 But it was very much driven by again, others perception of what success looks like. And so it was never about what do I want to do, it was about what would make me successful in the eyes of others. Jason Baumgarten 07:01 I talk to a lot of people about what do they want to get done? Like, what's their big thing, what's their next horizon? Whether it's in their job, in their family, in their community. Jason Baumgarten 07:09 And I think a lot of people are very reactive or they have this issue of like, what does the world think I should do? As opposed to like, what do you want to do? Jason Baumgarten 07:16 Like if you want to run, you know, you want to be a triathlete, like, great. That's your what? Like go. But it's very hard. Jason Baumgarten 07:22 I think a lot of us do define. And your point about when it switches from theirs to yours, I think it's a very dangerous moment because then you start to internalize and have you rewrite the history to be like, well, I wanted to do this. Dave Lu 07:35 Yeah. Jason Baumgarten 07:36 And it wasn't, it was really the other. I loved your point about your parents didn't know what a consultant was. I remember when I told my parents I was going to go be a consultant at McKinsey, my mom was like, oh, the Sprint store, they have consultants. Jason Baumgarten 07:47 And I was like, oh yeah, slightly different thing. But you know, it's like my parents were academics. They didn't know what any of these jobs were. Jason Baumgarten 07:53 It was a totally different world. You had a great phrase, you talk about this, you know, the Wharton, Deloitte, Yahoo, Apple, you know, blah blah blah, you know, Stanford moments. Jason Baumgarten 08:03 And you talked about it as your Super Mario Brothers days. What does that mean? Like when you talk to people about it, what is that? Jason Baumgarten 08:13 Super Mario World? Dave Lu 08:15 Yeah, I mean it's like that image from my last essay. It's this never ending staircase of the next big name big thing that it's not like a Grand Theft Auto game or Zelda where you can choose different paths to go. Dave Lu 08:29 There's only one direction to go and you just keep going up and completing. It's like Game of Death, like Bruce Lee going up to the top. Dave Lu 08:36 It's like, I think I joked, I was like, oh, a doctor's life must be miserable because you just go on the exact paths that offer you like med school, residency, fellowship, be a doctor, then do this. Dave Lu 08:46 But I'm like, but was my life that different? It was more like I had option of companies to work at, but it was still the same ladder I was climbing. Dave Lu 08:53 To what end? And I didn't know, but I think so many of us are programmed to just kind of hit that next achievement or the next hoop that's kind of set out before us or we set out before us. Dave Lu 09:03 And then once we get through that, it's like, okay, so what's the next hoop I gotta jump through? And it just doesn't end until you get off the hamster wheel or. Dave Lu 09:11 Why not? Jason Baumgarten 09:13 Yeah, and sometimes you can still stay in that world, but you define what you want out of it, which is very powerful. You said that working for Jerry Yang at Yahoo was a really, you know, an important lesson, important moment for you. I think you called it your see it to be it moment. What did he do that you hadn't seen before? Dave Lu 09:32 I mean, to be honest, that was the first big company I had worked at, because prior to that, I mean, I'd interned at places and then I'd worked in consulting or not. Dave Lu 09:40 But to be at a company that early on, it was like, around a thousand people or just less than under a thousand people, seeing it be founded by someone that looked like me, similar background to me, I think it meant a lot. Dave Lu 09:52 Because, again, to know that that was an option was huge for me. Because I thought, oh, you know, starting a company, I don't know if that's for me. Dave Lu 10:00 I'm just going to keep working at these big, you know, these big companies. I'm like, oh, but this big company was started by someone like me, and why couldn't I do that? Dave Lu 10:07 And so I think I planted this seed in the entrepreneurial seed in me that made me want to go do this myself. Dave Lu 10:14 I'm not programmed to work for someone else, I don't think. I think after a while, once you become your own CEO, you cannot. Dave Lu 10:20 It's really hard to. But I think you're basically unemployable, as Grossbeck said. I think it's really hard when you know that you have your own kind of vision of how things should be. Dave Lu 10:31 When you work for someone else, they have a vision, too. And that doesn't often, you know, jive well. So I think for me, when that became an option, I thought, oh, I don't like having managers. Dave Lu 10:40 Like, maybe I should go do my own thing. And, you know, for a child of immigrants who, you know, wanted you to become, you know, a corporate successor, they do not want you to start from zero because that's the scarcity of mindset. Dave Lu 10:52 Saying you will be starving, like, please get a job at Google for, like, the love of God, like, for your own good and your future. Dave Lu 10:58 Like, to get a job. People joke with, like, okay, you've done this job, you know, for a while. Can you go back and get a med school degree now. Dave Lu 11:05 And you're like, I'm not gonna go be a doctor now. But it's kind of like, you know, their hope, because that's the ultimate insecurity. Dave Lu 11:12 Everyone will always need doctors, so, or accountants or things like that, because so you always have a job. I'm like, well, once AI takes over, they won't have jobs either. Dave Lu 11:20 So is it really that secure anymore? I don't know. Jason Baumgarten 11:23 Yes. All the parents who push their kids to be computer scientists might be regretting it at the moment. Dave Lu 11:27 Yeah. Jason Baumgarten 11:28 You know, you started fan pop, which was, for anyone who doesn't remember, an amazing pop culture website. And I remember you talking about going to parties and telling people what you did. Jason Baumgarten 11:38 And, you know, we all have that moment where you have some huge brand that everyone knows or. And sometimes it's the environment. Right. Jason Baumgarten 11:44 Sometimes you're in a different country or a different place and they don't know the brand. But then sometimes it's because you do something entrepreneurial or you. Jason Baumgarten 11:51 Or you want to identify differently. I remember when I moved to Seattle, everyone would say, what do you do? And I would respond the way everyone in New York used to, which is like, what do you do for work? Jason Baumgarten 12:00 And then I realized they meant like, are you a skier? Are you a snowboarder? Are you a hiker? So, you know, when you say to somebody back then, especially in Seattle, what do you do? Jason Baumgarten 12:09 They'd be like, oh, I'm a snowboarder. You'd then find out they were like, you know, president of a trillion dollar company, but, you know, they identified that way. Dave Lu 12:17 Yeah. Jason Baumgarten 12:17 How did you get your own head around the deep breath? It's okay to be running a pop culture website. Dave Lu 12:24 I mean, I think it was really hard because I think my identity was had always been tied up in where I went to school, where I worked, and I had swag. Dave Lu 12:31 Because I could say, oh, I worked at Yahoo. And everyone knows what Yahoo was. You know, even at reunion, I could say that. But then I think when I was building a site that no one had ever heard of, it's very humbling because my identity was still tied to my work. Dave Lu 12:45 And, you know, you go into a dinner party or a party and then you tell people what you do, and they're like, oh, so you're basically unemployed. Dave Lu 12:51 Like you couldn't find a job at a real company. And it's very humbling. But I think I am very grateful for that period in my life where I learned that, you know, it was hard at first and pride swallowing to be like, oh, man, my ego is like really taking a hit from saying like this. Dave Lu 13:07 I know for a fact I probably jumped to, oh, yeah, I went to Wharton, I worked at Yahoo, and I did this and then that. Dave Lu 13:14 You know, I went to GSB, I went to Stanford business school, and I was like, oh, okay, okay, so, you know, you're legit. But how quickly I just jumped to my resume to make me feel like I was somewhat. Dave Lu 13:22 I was important. Then later I realized, like, I'm not that impressed by anyone else either. Like, so what? You work at Google. Dave Lu 13:29 You got lucky and you picked the right company to work at. So what, you worked at this place. I mean, whatever. Like that I could go work there too. Like, it's not that big a deal to me in Silicon Valley and in New York, very similar. Dave Lu 13:39 A lot of people are very insecure, but they have to kind of puff their chest and prove that they're worth talking to. And I think that game really sucks you into this kind of insecure spiral where you're like, oh, my validation is if I don't work at anthropic and open AI, I'm nothing right now because it's all about AI or, you know, people aren't impressed anymore. Dave Lu 13:58 And so I decided to opt out of that game because, you know, I was interviewing, like, Seth Rogen and people and going to movie premieres and doing all sorts of stuff, and these people working cubes, doing, like, working on a login page. Dave Lu 14:10 I'm like, I don't want to do that. So for me, you know, I'm like, making deals with, like, Walmart sales and McDonald's and movie studios and other stuff. Dave Lu 14:18 And I'm like, this is awesome. Like, I don't. I don't really care what other people are doing. I'm happy with what I'm doing. And so it became, why do. Dave Lu 14:27 Why was I so concerned about others perception of me? And if I flip the script, I'm like, okay, well, like, what makes you so impressive? Dave Lu 14:34 Like, what have you actually done? Like you said in Seattle, it's healthier. Like, what do you do? What do you love to do? Who are you? Dave Lu 14:40 I'm a skier. I'm snowboarder. I golf. Like, that's what I love. But it's about that, not about your employment. You know, it's because for a lot of people, their employment is a paycheck and they really don't love what they do. Dave Lu 14:50 That's not who they are. Jason Baumgarten 14:52 Yeah. And it's okay, if it is, like, I always say, if that's, if that really is the most important thing in your life, that's fine. Dave Lu 14:59 But be honest about it. Jason Baumgarten 15:00 But be honest about it, and be honest. If it's not like it's okay. That's so interesting. You know, you started hosting dinners years ago with other Asian Americans. Jason Baumgarten 15:09 A lot of founders, you know, that's turned into, I mean, dare I say, kind of a movement from a few to hundreds. Jason Baumgarten 15:18 What did you tap into? What was there that you, you know, the product market fit kind of question. Dave Lu 15:24 I think at the time I had known that, you know, it was very lonely. Like, one thing about being a founder is if you don't have community, you're literally like, alone because you're just doing this by yourself or maybe with a few other people. Dave Lu 15:35 And if those few other people are great to work with, but you don't necessarily share, you have stress that they don't have, then it's hard to kind of connect with them on the things that you're worried about or if they have different interests than you. Dave Lu 15:47 It's like, okay, well, you know, you're my work colleagues, but I don't click otherwise. Then you're very, very alone. And so I think for me, it was about finding other peers who understood what I was going through and the kind of anxiety I had around paying the bills and making payroll and other things like that. Dave Lu 16:03 But that's why I brought some folks together, because I disparately knew a few other founders, and I thought, oh, well, they don't know each other, so why don't I just get some folks together? Dave Lu 16:11 And I think there's power in building community that people don't realize because others look to you and are grateful that you, they know that you are the genesis of these friendships that they had. Dave Lu 16:21 They wouldn't have this community without you, and so they give you credit for that and be grateful for it. And so I think in life I've learned that building these relationships where you give and don't expect anything in return, people remember that, and then they, whether they repay it or they want to introduce to other people, you know, it comes back to you in different ways. Dave Lu 16:41 And so I think if you have a transactional mentality where you're always thinking, what am I going to get from this for inviting you to this, or how much are you going to pay me to come to this thing? Dave Lu 16:49 Or that hurts you more than it helps. I mean, you might get a little hit or a fix, you know, one time you do something. Dave Lu 16:56 But if you constantly are thinking about other people, you'll keep saying, hey, you know, I want to invite you to this thing, or, I think you would love meeting this person, or I want you to be on my podcast or let me write about a profile about you. Dave Lu 17:08 But if you can lift other people up, I think they always remember that. And I think for me, like, the one thing at the GSB that I didn't feel like I got was. Dave Lu 17:17 I mean, we got it all from our relationships just by, but that was the most valuable thing coming out of school. And it's like, but we never had a class on the importance of that. Dave Lu 17:25 I mean, touchy feely was how we, or interacting with other people. But if there was a sales class, it probably would have been the best thing ever. Dave Lu 17:32 But we never got that. Or storytelling class, whatever, let me know, narrative storytelling. But I think as I've gotten older, I realized how important that is. Dave Lu 17:40 And so those dinners were bringing people together. But, you know, years and years later, people are still thankful that we had a lot of those times. Jason Baumgarten 17:48 Yeah, it's a really important thing. I mean, Adam Grant in Give and Take wrote about people's reciprocity styles, and he said, there are three styles. Jason Baumgarten 17:56 There's givers, takers, and matchers. The matchers are what you described, the transactional. You do a favor for me, I'll, I'll. Jason Baumgarten 18:02 I'm keeping score. The takers generally struggle over time. And what's interesting about the givers is they tend to actually occupy the extremes of society, some of the least successful and most successful people. Jason Baumgarten 18:17 And so part of the lesson is like, how do you, how do you do that but not be in the group? That's, you know, getting taken advantage of, but instead one that's. Jason Baumgarten 18:25 That's benefiting, you know, and the classic thing is like, I'm the vulnerable giver who's always giving and not getting. And part of that is just. Jason Baumgarten 18:33 I mean, I often tell people, like, just remember to ask people really like being helpful to other people, but you have to actually ask because they're not. Jason Baumgarten 18:40 They don't know. But if you say, like, hey, there's three things you could help me with. Somebody's like, oh, I could really help with number two. Dave Lu 18:47 I'd be happy to, but you got to ask. I mean, I think that's the difference because I see so many givers that are out there and they struggle. Dave Lu 18:55 But I'm like, you have to be bolder. Like, you have to make it known what you act like, what do you want? Like, what do you, I mean, you've helped so many people. Dave Lu 19:03 You're more than likely they're going to be willing to, like, help you too. But you have to be willing to put it out there. Jason Baumgarten 19:09 Yeah. And you have to be okay when some people say, yeah, I can't do that. Dave Lu 19:13 Yeah, I gotta have to free. Yeah. Jason Baumgarten 19:14 You know, but a lot of people will. It's amazing. You started hyphen. You weren't making big announcement plans, and someone tweeted your essay. It went a little viral. Dave Lu 19:26 Yeah. Jason Baumgarten 19:27 You said something that a first check frees a founder from their day job and the guilt and doubt of their parents. Jason Baumgarten 19:33 And, I mean, that resonated with me particularly because I think we have a lot of mythology around founders. Jason Baumgarten 19:42 We have a lot of mythology around, you know, starting things. You know, whether it's a big tech thing or it's just like, literally, I'm. Jason Baumgarten 19:49 I'm putting a lemonade stand out there. Dave Lu 19:51 Yeah. Jason Baumgarten 19:51 But when you think about underwriting people, how much of this person's breaking with the script and sort of, you know, recognizing that there's more there if they can unlock themselves, how much of that plays into your thinking? Dave Lu 20:05 It's huge. The founder themselves, whether whatever the idea is, I think that that's the most important investment you can make is in the person, not necessarily in the deck or the business idea. Dave Lu 20:16 Yes, they have to be fully capable, intelligent, you know, have the domain expertise, but I think you can't wire that into someone. Dave Lu 20:25 The risk taking, the boldness, that mentality. And it's not easy to find either. I think it's someone who's already figured some of this stuff out that they don't like. Dave Lu 20:35 They're not concerned about what other people think, because if they are, it's going to be a very different path than someone who is like, no, I have this mission. Dave Lu 20:41 I want to build this because it affects me personally. It's something that I've always wanted to do. I've spent a whole life involved in this kind of mission. Dave Lu 20:49 It's very different than saying someone who's like, oh, I needed an idea and I want to be a founder. This seems like an opportunity because it's backwards. Dave Lu 20:58 It's like someone who's like, oh, well, I just got laid off, and so now I need to find something. And so I'm going to try to come up with an idea for a business. Dave Lu 21:07 And so that, that, I think, is much harder than someone who's like, my dad died of cancer and I'm going to go find a cure and I'm going to build this thing to figure out how to do that. Dave Lu 21:16 It's completely different. And so I think the wiring of someone who is building something makes a lot of difference. Jason Baumgarten 21:25 Yeah, it's interesting. I was reading some research that came out recently where they were promoting that they'd cracked the founder psyche. Jason Baumgarten 21:31 And I looked it deep in the notes and they literally, they assess 16 founders. I was like, all right, well, there's like a few hundred founders a year that get like 50 million plus checks put into them. Jason Baumgarten 21:43 And this goes back to the psyche. Like, we glorify a few founders who have been successful, but there's way more founders who are unsuccessful or modestly successful and do all the same things that the successful ones do. Jason Baumgarten 21:57 How are you trying to separate the noise from the signal on what you think really makes the difference? Dave Lu 22:05 I mean, look, I think there's a narrative in the Valley and among venture capitalists to make themselves feel better that they're good at picking. Dave Lu 22:12 I mean, I think it's bs. People are more lucky than good. And at the end of the day, it's about access. It's like, did you know this person in grad school? Dave Lu 22:21 Did you know this person socially beforehand? Did you hear about this before anyone else did and that's how you learned. Dave Lu 22:27 Is there an inside track that you have that they didn't have? You can say that. I have all these models that are and a team of crack analysts that are looking into all the traffic out there and they're finding out, you know, which on Google who are the most published or referenced PhD papers out there. Dave Lu 22:44 I was like, yeah, but at the end of the day, they don't know who you are. They're not going to get you a deal, but that's not going to get you into the round. Dave Lu 22:50 Like, you have to know almost before it happens to actually be part of that. And if not, if it's a competitive deal, you have to have access to that person before everyone else got to them. Dave Lu 22:58 And they have to have a reason to choose you to take your money. Because the best founders are often the ones that everyone's already been chasing. Dave Lu 23:05 And if not, then you have an inside track because you already knew them probably beforehand. So it's rare that someone randomly identifies a company that's going to be huge and they just happen to be. Dave Lu 23:18 I mean, if it is, that's 100% luck. I don't know that it's not anything other than that. It's like they came from not Silicon Valley and they reached out to you and you somehow, you know, found them outside the route. Dave Lu 23:30 But if they're here, everyone's heard of them and it's near impossible to get into a deal. So I do think, you know, after the fact, after you've gotten that and you meet, you have that access and you meet the founder and you can break all these things down, it's like, okay, yeah, now this person definitely is a good bet. Dave Lu 23:46 But you know, if people also say second time founders, third time founders are guaranteed to, I'm like, well, that's not true either. Because if they had an exit, they checked out. Dave Lu 23:54 Or if they fail twice, doesn't mean they're going to, you know, hit a home run the next time. So again, this whole mythology around VCs being really good pickers, I mean, honestly, from what I've seen, most VCs are VCs because they have access to capital that they can deploy. Dave Lu 24:10 Like, you know, they just happen to have, you look into it, it's like, oh, well, they're second or third generation someone and they had enough money to start a small fund and that's where it went from. Dave Lu 24:19 But it's rare that it's, if you could have someone really good at picking but they can't raise money and they, you'll never know. Dave Lu 24:27 So again, it's all a game of access. And access is all around relationships. Again, it always comes back down to the relationships. Jason Baumgarten 24:34 It's an important lesson and it's an important lesson for people who are starting their careers because I think people often are so back to that track mentality. Jason Baumgarten 24:43 They're so busy focused on the track that they forget that it's the people around them that are really going to make or break. I mean, I always say it's, you need to know what you want to achieve, but then it's the people around you that make that happen. Jason Baumgarten 24:53 I referenced the enough headline and you talked about as your throwing one stone moment. But tell everyone who's listening just what happened because it's kind of an incredible story. Dave Lu 25:04 Yeah, so during the pandemic when people were blaming Asians for Covid, there's a rise in anti Asian hate crimes around the country. Dave Lu 25:12 And so I'm in San Francisco. A Thai grandpa, Vicharatanapakti, was knocked down and died. Here in the city where I live, people were throwing acid on people's faces, throwing rocks like in their head, like in New York and other places. Dave Lu 25:24 And that was the kind of the headlines I was seeing constantly. And so during that time I realized, you know, like, no one's going to help us except ourselves. Dave Lu 25:33 But it wasn't until the shootings in Atlanta, at the spas where six Asian women were murdered, that I realized that, you know, we have to speak up, we have to say something publicly. Dave Lu 25:43 And my friend started reaching out. The CEO of OpenTable and other friends, they're like, what are we going to do about this, Dave? And I was already working on Open Letter and I asked them to sign it because I'm like, hey, I'm not as important as you guys. Dave Lu 25:54 The more important people that sign this, the better, and people will get eyes on it. Another friend suggested, you know, two other friends, like, wanted to help write it. Dave Lu 26:03 One of those friends suggested we get a buy a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal. And so we worked on the letter published in the Wall Street Journal, you know, as an ad, a full page ad, and big bold letters that said, enough. Dave Lu 26:13 I talked about how we write your code, we do your nails, we cook your food, and you still treat us like we're foreigners in our own country. Dave Lu 26:20 The same streets and neighborhoods our parents have walked for 40 years, they don't feel safe when walking in anymore. And so the effect was that we had all these CEOs and people like President Bush signed it, Andre Godala signed it. Dave Lu 26:32 J.J. Abrams, the director signed it, Jeremy Lin signed it. I mean, CEOs of Footlocker and DocuSign and Google and everyone signed this thing. Dave Lu 26:41 We had 8,000 people that signed the document. But a friend of mine, he was the founder of Twitch, he asked me, he's like, Dave, what was the point of why'd you spend, you know, 70, $80,000 on this full page ad? Dave Lu 26:51 You could have given it to a nonprofit. That helps. I was like, Kevin, you realize that people don't give a crap about us. They don't know this is happening to us. Dave Lu 26:58 One of my board members whose wife is Thai, he didn't even know about it. And I was like, you know, his kids are Asian and he doesn't know they're dealing with this. Dave Lu 27:04 And so by putting it in a place where everyone can see it and people could say, hey, in the Wall Street Journal of all places, that, oh, I invest in that person, I'm on the board with that person. Dave Lu 27:15 Their kids go to my kids school, my neighbor is in there who signed. I didn't realize that this was a thing. But that's when by bringing awareness it makes is a huge, powerful statement to everyone. Dave Lu 27:25 So, you know, for me, when Emily Chang interviewed me on Bloomberg after the ad came out, she's like, what do you hope to, you know, gain from doing this? Dave Lu 27:32 And I said, you know, a lot of people blame Asians for the pandemic, but no one's giving Asians credit for actually helping us get through this. Dave Lu 27:40 We wouldn't have Doordash and Instacart to feed us without Asian founders. We wouldn't have Zoom to do work in school on without Asian founders. Dave Lu 27:46 We wouldn't have YouTube and Twitch to entertain us without Asian founders. We wouldn't have Peloton to work out on if it weren't for Asian founders. And the funny thing is, I found out a lot of Asian Americans didn't even know that these companies were founded by Asians. Dave Lu 27:58 And it said a lot about how our stories aren't covered. And part of that is that we don't try to draw attention to ourselves. Dave Lu 28:04 But another part is that media just doesn't cover us very well. And so I want to put that out there. And I think it was a big statement. Dave Lu 28:11 And I had a woman who was an engineer at Apple, she was in Mountain View, and someone. She was 38 weeks pregnant, and someone yelled, why don't you go back to your own country? Dave Lu 28:19 And this is in Mountain View. All places where, you know, it's pretty Asian. She said, why am I going to raise my kid here? Dave Lu 28:25 I mean, maybe I should go back to Asia where it's safer. And then she saw the ad in the paper and she cried because she said, no, this is my country, too. Dave Lu 28:33 I should stay and fight. And so for me, it's about that, helping people see themselves and wanting to stay and fight because this country is as much theirs as anyone's. Dave Lu 28:43 Especially these days when we're being told that we look like foreigners and we shouldn't be cheering for a football game at our own college, that we're going to things like that, for me, it's reminding people that you do belong. Jason Baumgarten 28:56 Yeah, I think we all. You know, when you're in business, you spend a lot of time thinking about the business you're in. Jason Baumgarten 29:04 And for every leader, you also have to remember, whether you think about your business like a group of humans that have all these other things going on in their lives or not, it's a good reminder that we all have the parenting and the elder care and the community member and the church or synagogue or mosque member, but we also have these bigger things going on in our lives. Jason Baumgarten 29:26 That can be very impactful. And I think just reminding every leader that walk through the other shoes of the people that. Jason Baumgarten 29:34 That are working for you and think about what do they have going on or how would this thing that's going on impact them differently than it might land on you. Jason Baumgarten 29:41 You may not see it, but somebody else may see it very differently. You know, and even if you're the most raw capitalist still going to hurt productivity. Jason Baumgarten 29:50 Right. Even if you have no empathy for what they're going through, they're still not going to show up to work. They're 100% self. Jason Baumgarten 29:56 I mean that. Yeah, that engineer at Apple did not have a good day at work writing code. Dave Lu 30:00 Yeah, it does affect you. And yeah, so I, and that's the thing, I think, you know, when you get the Elons and others people saying that empathy is a weakness or you shouldn't have empathy, I'm like, well, you could think that or you could actually have empathy and your employees would actually respect you more. Jason Baumgarten 30:14 Yeah, it's an interesting thing for sure. I want to spend a second on. You did end up going back to Hollywood doing the film thing. Give us 30 seconds on the film. Dave Lu 30:28 Yeah, no, I mean, I was a huge Jeremy Lin fan. When Lin's haney happened, I flew out to New York from San Francisco and D.C. from San Francisco to see Jeremy play a number of times. I'd been following him since he was at Harvard and he played out here in Santa Clara. Dave Lu 30:42 And for me, I was like, it was a once in a lifetime moment that I was going to miss. I grew up a Knicks fan. My dad was a Knicks fan. Dave Lu 30:49 I was a Knicks fan growing up. And so for me, seeing a Taiwanese kid from Harvard playing in the NBA for my Knicks and doing what he was doing, I was like, I am not missing this for the world and I don't know when it's going to happen again. Dave Lu 31:00 So when my friend reached out and said, hey, I have two friends who want to produce a documentary about kind of a ten year look back at what Linsanity meant to them, I was all in on that. Dave Lu 31:09 I was like, no way, I'm not doing this. And so, you know, I got Jeremy was on board and I was like, okay, this is something I really want my kids to see someday too, because they missed the whole thing. Dave Lu 31:19 And a lot of folks like, you know, they won't have lived through that like I did. And so for me it was just important, you know, because, you know, I had heard that a couple other studios didn't want to do it because they're like, well, we're already doing something about Michael Chang. Dave Lu 31:33 And I'm like, really? We get one movie. That's all we deserve. Really? Jason Baumgarten 31:36 That seems a tiny bit different. Dave Lu 31:38 Yeah, yeah. And I was like, okay, you wouldn't say that to anyone of the group, but if you're not going to make it, then I will find the money to make it. Dave Lu 31:45 And so it was like yet another reminder that I had been raised always to ask permission for things. Dave Lu 31:51 And now I was. From the letter to starting my own investment syndicate and now fund to making the documentary. Dave Lu 31:58 I was like, forget asking permission. Just take control and just do and drive. I don't wait for someone else to give me permission. Dave Lu 32:05 I give permission to myself. And so I think too many of us have been, and especially in conservative, like, if you're in a scarcity mindset place where you're afraid to stick your head out and you know, you might get scolded or in trouble or whatnot, you always ask permission because you're afraid of the consequences. Dave Lu 32:21 But I think many of us live with this boogeyman that like, oh, if you don't ask permission, you're going to be in trouble or something bad is going to happen to you and they're going to punish you. Dave Lu 32:29 Even nowadays speaking up if you believe in what you believe in, these days, people are afraid. Oh, no. Like, you know, they're going to come after me. Dave Lu 32:37 But I'm like, if there were no people that actually stood up and said something like my dad did, they'll just do whatever they want to you. And so at least some people have to stand up. Dave Lu 32:44 And so for me, it's like, again, if I want to see something made or done or a thing that needs to be in the world or created, then I have to go do it. Dave Lu 32:54 Like, no one gave me permission to write a children's book, but I'm writing one. And it's like, but I want this to exist in the world. And so again, I think that time and time again the reminders, like, if something isn't there and you think it deserves or belongs to be there, then you should make it happen. Dave Lu 33:08 Don't wait for someone else to do it. Jason Baumgarten 33:10 Yeah. It is very much your comment about the founder. You know what, you can't create that in someone. That insatiable belief that you have something the world needs or is missing, and you've got to be part of that. Jason Baumgarten 33:23 And having a forgiveness versus permission mindset, you wrote two different things. Jason Baumgarten 33:29 Over the years that I wanted to call, you know, sort of the tension between the two and get your reaction. Jason Baumgarten 33:35 At one point, you wrote about why you have no power and that the values Asian kids are raised with, deference, humility, avoiding conflict works in Asian societies where everyone shares the same social contract, but not in the West. Jason Baumgarten 33:53 How do you think about that as a context argument where it works in some context but not in others? Jason Baumgarten 34:00 And how does somebody have to think about that? Dave Lu 34:03 Yeah, I mean, I think if everyone plays by the same rules, it's very different. And especially culturally, where if it's a collectivist society where people kind of. Dave Lu 34:12 There's a mutual understanding and everyone's looking out for the benefit of the group versus the individual, you behave differently. Dave Lu 34:19 Because if it's game theory, you know, kind of how the other players will act. But if you're in a place where you don't know how theirs will act, and there are irrational players or there are people who are, you know, bolder or willing to take shortcuts or talk behind your back or do other things that are not seen as necessarily bad by everyone, they're, like, respected. Dave Lu 34:39 It's like, oh, they're just a hustler. They're a killer. That changes the game. If you are playing by a very mild set of rules where you're, like, trying to behave and act accordingly, thinking that this is a meritocracy, because it is not, in fact, a meritocracy. Dave Lu 34:53 You know, you've seen this through all your, you know, work at Spencer Stuart. Like, there's. Just because you do good work does not mean you're getting promoted. Dave Lu 35:01 You have to play the game. It's, again, relational. I think it's very much that that dinner or golf round you spend with the CEO to get promoted is worth way more than the project that you sold or whatever it might be, because someone could take credit for that easily. Dave Lu 35:16 You know, you don't know what people are saying behind your back or in emails or in text messages that you're not privy to. And so I think, you know, if you are used to working in a truly meritocratic system, you know, you believe that just doing the work will get you where you want to get to. Dave Lu 35:32 If you're not in that, the politics are way more effective. You're not going to win that game. And so you have to learn how to play the politics game. Jason Baumgarten 35:41 So you've talked about that. You got to learn the game you're playing and learn the rules. You've also said, stop trying to break the ceiling and just build your own house. Is this a everyone should just find which path works for them or is this a evolution in your own thinking? Dave Lu 36:00 This is a hedging for those people who don't want to start their own thing because it's not for everyone. I realize that not everyone is going to be a founder, entrepreneur. Dave Lu 36:08 So I try to write for the audiences that I think it'll speak to the most. And so if you're going to play within the context of a corporation and like a highly political like environment, then you have to know how to survive in that environment. Dave Lu 36:21 If not, and if you don't want to play that game, then go do your own thing and get out of that, because then you can make the rules. Dave Lu 36:28 And so I think those are the two options that I see. But I don't think that the rules will be any, should be any different in that, like the rules of power and how to get ahead. Dave Lu 36:39 You still need to be self promotional, like break rules and break norms so that you stand out, lean into your power to get more power. Dave Lu 36:46 But all these things, I think are things that both founders and kind of corporate executives need to do. Dave Lu 36:53 Because at the end of the day, it's selling, you're selling your own product, you're selling yourself, whatever it might be, you're persuading others to buy into you or whatever you're building. Dave Lu 37:01 And so the rules technically still apply to both. But yes, it's kind of like a framing for audiences. Jason Baumgarten 37:08 No, no, that's, that's helpful and important, I think, because some people will read both and say, wait a minute, what is Dave suggesting? Jason Baumgarten 37:16 We mentioned an old professor we both know, Jeffrey Pfeffer, who calls authentic leadership nonsense repeatedly. Jason Baumgarten 37:24 You know, you've talked about not having to become someone else. And tell us, how does that resonate with you? Jason Baumgarten 37:33 Because I find that at times this notion of be authentic can be taken too far. And at the same time, I also think he's kind of wrong, which is often the case with my reading of his work, which is that he's taking it to the extreme, right, he's taking this notion to the extreme that authentic leadership is garbage. Jason Baumgarten 37:52 I go back to Mark Twain's simple phrase, don't lie. They're hard to remember. Trying to not be authentic is much more work. Jason Baumgarten 38:00 You've got to constantly be lying about who you are, what you believe in, what you want, so it's just easier to be you. Jason Baumgarten 38:07 But how do you feel about that? Dave Lu 38:10 I mean, it's interesting because I love Jeffrey and his work. I think what he's talking about is like, you know, when he hears of Simon Sinek and others in the world where he's like, ah, that's just a bunch of like, sociological mumbo jumbo that they're. Dave Lu 38:23 They're throwing out there. It's. No, there's not base in fact, or, you know, whatnot. But I do think, try to be as authentic as possible. Dave Lu 38:30 But I'm also not running a, you know, 10,000 person organization. I think there's a fine line between being too vulnerable and knowing what kind of the people that follow you need. Dave Lu 38:42 And I think I've cried in front of my employees before. And I think that showing that vulnerability makes them trust me more to be their leader, that I'll be honest with them. Dave Lu 38:50 But at the same time, there's things that I didn't tell them that I don't think would make sense for them to know or would actually hurt them. And so I think there's making decisions and using your discretion. Dave Lu 39:01 But again, I obviously err on the side of being more authentic in myself than anything. But I'm not saying be like an Elizabeth Holmes and try to fake who you are with your voice and everything else, but I'm saying that there's a time and place for the things that they need, that you can be more vulnerable yourself. Dave Lu 39:20 And there's other times that you don't need to necessarily show all your cards. Jason Baumgarten 39:23 I mean, it strikes me that people have to be appropriately authentic. Like, there are some things that feel just like they don't fit. Like, why are you doing that? Like, it's almost like an act. Like it's performative authenticity. Dave Lu 39:34 Yeah. Jason Baumgarten 39:35 No, it's like I'm crying because somebody told me I should cry, and it's Dave Lu 39:38 like, yeah, no, no, no. Jason Baumgarten 39:40 Why? Like, are, you know, are you doing it because you want people to understand how impactful something was to you? Dave Lu 39:45 Yeah. Jason Baumgarten 39:46 Cry like it's okay. It's a human emotion. Dave Lu 39:48 Yeah. Jason Baumgarten 39:48 So I get where you're going, which is like, it's. There are moments where exposing more of yourself helps people understand who you are, where you come from, in an authentic way. Doing it as an act, doing it as a. On either extreme is off, you know, whether you're trying to, like, pretend who you are entirely. Dave Lu 40:06 Yeah. Jason Baumgarten 40:07 I mean, she had bigger problems in Dave Lu 40:08 the business, and you should see a therapist, probably. Jason Baumgarten 40:11 Yeah. I was like, well, if the voice was the only thing, it would have been okay. It was the business underneath. Dave Lu 40:16 Turning people in fraud. Yeah, that, exactly. Jason Baumgarten 40:19 No, that's helpful because I find that sometimes we take these things. It's like the founder stuff. It's like, we take it so far that it's really almost crazy. Right. Where it's like, if you follow that too logically, it'll get you to a bad place. Dave Lu 40:32 Yeah. And I think a lot of the founders see that kind of archetype here now. It's like, oh, I have to be like a Sam Altman, Mark Zuckerberg, bro, whatever. Dave Lu 40:39 I'm like, well, that's not who they really are either. A lot of people are trying to fake the this role now to try to seem like there's something they're not because it fits a media narrative. Dave Lu 40:47 But I'm like, people can see through that. Nobody wants to work for someone like that. And so it is interesting to see kind of how the shift of the Wall Street CEO versus now the Silicon Valley type CEO, the archetypes changed a bit, but it's still, again, you are egomaniacal and you are arrogant and all this other stuff. Dave Lu 41:08 But I'm like, does that necessarily make for the best leader? And I see a different model that. Because I saw Jerry, and Jerry, when he was CEO, he wasn't like that. Dave Lu 41:16 You know, he also cried in front of us, and he was very human, you know. Jason Baumgarten 41:20 And Yahoo is a great success in the, you know, people, you know, obviously the company has faded, but in its early days, it was an incredible tech success. Jason Baumgarten 41:28 I think what people tend to do is they have a correlation problem with this stuff where it's like, is this person great because they were lucky? Jason Baumgarten 41:36 Are they great because they have just stumbled into an amazing thing? Or is this, you know, behavior that they're putting out there, the thing that makes them great? Jason Baumgarten 41:44 And we correlate it, but it's not actually correlated. And I see this a lot with leaders where. I mean, I've worked with almost every notable founder in recent history, and they're all radically different. Jason Baumgarten 41:56 Even the ones that have some similarity on the outside. When you get to know them better, when you sit in their teams, when you sit in their board meetings, some of them are like enormous risk takers. Jason Baumgarten 42:07 Some of them are calculated to sort of paint with this broad brush of like, oh, they're all working this particular way, by the way, a lot of it's a narrative. Jason Baumgarten 42:16 Like, somebody will say, oh, this person works so hard. I'm like, no, they don't. They work 20 hours a week on that job. I think it's important on all of us not to sort of just listen to the headlines and take it with a grain of salt, dig a little deeper, look for the correlations. Jason Baumgarten 42:31 You said something I want to ask about. You said a lot of people want to pick the racehorse and don't want to invest in the workhorse and that your job is to find the workhorse. Jason Baumgarten 42:45 That's the racehorse in disguise. I'm in the horse picking business, so I spend a lot of time thinking about this and I worry a lot about the signals that people pick on because I think often it's your exact point. Jason Baumgarten 42:57 Did they get to OpenAI because they were unemployed and that was the startup that had a job and they went there three, four years before anyone thought it was a good idea or did they go to it after? Jason Baumgarten 43:09 It was an amazing rocket ship and it was actually really hard to get a job. How do you think about that workhorse racehorse trade off beyond where they work? Dave Lu 43:18 I think if you see what they did while they were there and where given the opportunity they have, like what do they do when they had that opportunity? Dave Lu 43:27 I think, you know, when I talk about workhorses, like very much when you're thinking that meritocracy is going to get you somewhere and you just put your head down and you just grind that, you will eventually get promoted. Dave Lu 43:38 And because of your hard work and effort, you can probably see that in the stories on an, on a resume or on LinkedIn. Dave Lu 43:44 It's like, what do they work on? They're like, oh, they built 10 products and did this or that and it's like, okay, but were they able to break through and do a big product that helped save the business or like start like Deb started Facebook marketplaces, like things like that were game changing for a company. Dave Lu 44:01 Those are the ones that people pay attention to. Those are the show horses. So it's kind of like a. Well, regardless of when they got into OpenAI, what they do while they're there, did they actually launch a new kind of part of the business that wasn't there before? Dave Lu 44:15 That's helped a lot. Or did they just do the job they were given and they kind of complied and they were very effective at that job because they're smart. Dave Lu 44:23 You can tell the difference when you look at what they've worked on because you can't make these things up. If they have a bunch of little projects I never heard of versus they launched cloud code, it's a very different kind of outcome. Dave Lu 44:34 And so you know who the kind of racehorse is because they had to push that through and lead that charge or be picked for it because someone else saw that in them. Jason Baumgarten 44:44 Yeah, no, it's a. I always talk about the portability of your expertise in your work. You know, a lot of the things you do are unique to that company, but don't replicate outside of it. Jason Baumgarten 44:55 That's a good example of somebody who's playing the game well, but they're not. You can't take them and say, great, now go launch some other great product. Jason Baumgarten 45:01 And they're like, I don't know how to do that. I just. I knew how to influence getting put on the right project as opposed to coming up with the idea or having the insight. Dave Lu 45:10 Yeah. Jason Baumgarten 45:10 To begin with. Dave Lu 45:11 The worst story I have is like, I remember when I was at a startup and we had someone who came over from Google, YouTube, and I wrote an email to the whole team. Dave Lu 45:18 I was a CMO. I wrote an email to the team and. And then he kind of scolded me. He's like, oh, that's not how you write an email. Like, we would never write that at, like, YouTube. Dave Lu 45:25 I'm like, I don't give a shit what you write at YouTube. This is not Google you're working on. This is a startup. But it was. That mentality is like, wow, you could only succeed in a place like that because you've been. Dave Lu 45:33 That's your DNA. That's all you know. And that's why I'm like, you know, when you see someone working at a place for 10, 20 years, whatever, it's Shawshank Redemption. Dave Lu 45:40 They don't know how to exist outside of the environment. And I don't know that they would know how to succeed outside of the environment. Right. It's very. Jason Baumgarten 45:46 It's higher risk. It's higher risk for sure. Dave Lu 45:49 So even if it's someone who had been at that place for a while, but then they've launched a bunch of other things outside or done things outside, it's like, oh, they've succeeded outside of that institution. That means that they probably have, you know what it takes to lead outside. Jason Baumgarten 46:03 Yeah. No, totally fair. All right, we'll do the speed round. Okay. A hobby or pastime where you get totally in the zone from any other distraction. Dave Lu 46:13 Golf. Golf is life. It's something that, for me, I think it's really helped me a lot because it makes me focus on, like, my own game. Dave Lu 46:23 You're playing by yourself. You're your own. Your own opponent. The course is there for you. But if you miss, swing, or just. Dave Lu 46:29 You have no one else to blame but yourself. This little ball didn't move like you did, all of it. And then you can improve if you put the work in and you can see the results. Dave Lu 46:37 But you have to put that there. And every shot is a new shot to start. You can make a mistake, but you can have to recover the next one. Dave Lu 46:44 For me, it's very reflective of life. And for me, it's also a time to be with my own thoughts and be out there and just not have to. Dave Lu 46:55 The distractions of the world are not there. I'm just hitting this little white ball to a hole. I've fallen madly in love with this game. Jason Baumgarten 47:02 I am a terrible golfer, but I have enormous appreciation for people who can do well. A book or TV series that has had a lot of impact on you recently or that you're into at the moment. Dave Lu 47:14 Gosh, you know, I'm watching the new season of Ted Lasso and that show. I don't know. I think again, it's the authenticity of leadership. Dave Lu 47:22 When I see how he interacts with, whether it was the men's team before or the women's team now and adapting to the environment, different people and different environments. Dave Lu 47:30 Completely different. The men's team versus the women's team. And the things he has to think about or be aware of from the funny stuff, like he can't go in the locker room and have a talk until they're everyone's decent versus before you just go in. Dave Lu 47:41 But these are the things that I'm like, you know what? This is what an empathetic, effective leader looks like because they trust him. He builds those relationships and people look to him for guidance. Dave Lu 47:51 And I think that's the kind of leader I think everyone should strive to be. Someone that people that work for you or follow you trust you enough to actually come to you for whenever you need. Jason Baumgarten 48:02 That's a good one. What skill that you thought mattered earlier in your career that you've changed your mind about? Dave Lu 48:11 Yeah. I mean, it's again, growing up in a STEM encouraging household and being a finance major at Wharton, I kept thinking, oh, this analytical stuff is so important. Dave Lu 48:25 And now look at all the AI is doing it for you. And copilot Claude, everything is doing that. So, I mean, it's not doing the math perfect yet, but it'll get there. Dave Lu 48:34 And so all the things that I thought could add value before as an analyst or this or that, that would get me through that ladder. Dave Lu 48:42 Irrelevant. It just leveled the playing field for a lot of people who can't do math well, and so I used to think that was what kind of set me apart. Dave Lu 48:49 But I'm like, oh, well, a lot of these analysts can be replaced by the AI code out there. And it's terrifying if you're going to be graduating from college and want to be an analyst. Dave Lu 48:58 But I don't know that, you know, when I wanted to be an investment banker analyst back or consultant back when I was in college, I don't know that that would necessarily be what my thought would be. Dave Lu 49:06 Nowadays. It might not be computer programmer either, but it's the, the number of safe, successful jobs is. Is definitely. Dave Lu 49:13 It's getting smaller and smaller. Jason Baumgarten 49:15 Yes. And I think people will, you know, they'll have to think about what, what. You know, I hear a lot about, like, oh, well, humans are great because they have judgment and taste. And I'm like, really? Have you met humans? We're not so good at the judgment taste thing. But I, Yeah, I think it's going to force us to. Dave Lu 49:30 Following rules and playing within a system. Right. Your tastes are whatever they want me to be. Jason Baumgarten 49:34 But I think it's going to force people to really think about what they're great at, what is intrinsically something they do well, and then where can they apply it? You know, what's that place? One piece of leadership advice you hear often and you think it's actually pretty bad. Dave Lu 49:49 One. Gosh, it's funny. I feel like it's the stuff that, like, Jeff points out that Simon, like some of these other folks say is like, I think. Dave Lu 49:59 I'm not saying that I do believe that being authentic is good, but I do also think that those who are, like, are meant to be kind of fearless and not show any signs of weakness. Dave Lu 50:13 That's the archetype you see on TV and movies. And it's like, okay, people want to have a strong leader. But I think, as I've seen leadership and through YPO and other forms, the leaders that are most respected are the ones who I think connect with their employees. Dave Lu 50:30 When people trust you, they'll be loyal to you. If they think that you are behaving a certain way or you care more about profits than people or the mission, you're not going to have their loyalty. Dave Lu 50:41 They'll probably switch jobs as soon as the stock price starts fumbling or the earnings call is not as good as the last one. Dave Lu 50:47 And I don't think that the cost of that turnover, I don't think that people calculate that in their equation because you've got to go recruit and find new people, and that takes time and that. Dave Lu 50:58 That slows you down. And so I don't know if it's worth being that kind of type A, aggro kind of leader that shows no empathy or weakness. Dave Lu 51:09 It's something that we've seen in TV and movies. And that I think is a reason why now, with all the backlash against DEI for hiring for executives and this and that, okay, I think a woman would probably be much better leader for this kind of company because they're going to be more empathetic. Dave Lu 51:26 But then you also have the pressure of these women being told that they shouldn't be empathetic, they should be stronger. But if they are, then they're a bitch because they're too strong. Dave Lu 51:34 I mean, it's all these mixed messages. I'm like, you know what? Be the best leader that you know how to be. Don't listen to all these other narratives, because, you know, every company, every group of people needs a different type of leader. So. Jason Baumgarten 51:45 Well, it goes back to what you were talking about throughout the whole conversation, which is really this idea of, have your own North Star and don't spend so much time worrying about what everyone else thinks about you. Jason Baumgarten 51:55 Because even to your point about leadership styles, if you're focused on just what your team needs and how to win, you'll be a good leader. Jason Baumgarten 52:03 If you get it in your head about what you're supposed to be or look like or act like because of what other people are saying a leader ought to do, you're probably doing it for the wrong context, the wrong team, and. Jason Baumgarten 52:13 And not for you. Dave Lu 52:15 Yep. Jason Baumgarten 52:16 Dave, thank you for spending the time with us. As always, leadership doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens in context. Jason Baumgarten 52:23 And I think you've shown how much the context of your own journey has had a huge impact, not only on you, but on these incredible things that you've been able to achieve, to have impact on others. Jason Baumgarten 52:33 As a provocateur, as an entrepreneur, and now as a venture capitalist, it proves the point that fit always happens. Jason Baumgarten 52:40 So thank you for being with us and for anyone who doesn't read Dave's very prolific work, you are always writing amazing things and looking for amazing founders. Jason Baumgarten 52:50 So thank you for all the work you do. Dave Lu 52:52 Thanks, Jason. Thanks for having me. It was fun.