Latest / Success Story with Scott Clary / Chris Voss - FBI Hostage Negotiator | Everything in Life Is A Negotiation

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Chris Voss - FBI Hostage Negotiator | Everything in Life Is A Negotiation · Success Story with Scott Clary

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  slash success code success for 30% off your first order of these amazing gummies. You encourage people
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  to become straight shooters and how do you do that? You deactivate their fears. How do you do that?
• 1:14
  You're saying this probably stuff you're holding back, you're scared. If you tell me it's going to blow
• 1:18
  off the deal. What if everything you thought you knew about negotiation was wrong? That the key
• 1:21
  to influence persuasion and success isn't logic, but emotion. Chris Voss spent 24 years as the FBIs
• 1:28
  lead hostage negotiator facing life or death conversations. When Chatchee PT and the AI stuff
• 1:33
  started really hitting the business community hard about a year and a half ago and I was confused.
• 1:38
  One of the guys on the panel said this is being a great intern that'll give you a good first pass
• 1:44
  at the information. So I'm like, oh, okay, then realize it's not going to be all the way there,
• 1:49
  but it's going to get you more than halfway there. If you look at it in that capacity, then it's
• 1:53
  very helpful. Now he teaches the world's top businesses how to win every deal. In this episode,
• 1:58
  he reveals the surprising power of tactical empathy, the secrets behind high stakes negotiations,
• 2:03
  and why the best deals aren't one with aggression, but with understanding. This is the conversation
• 2:08
  that will change how you communicate forever. AI is a copy of the knowledge as it exists in a given
• 2:13
  moment time and it freezes it. Great entrepreneurs, great business people begin to learn to their
• 2:18
  gut instinct, which is overriding their hopes and fears early. Welcome to success story. I'm your host,
• 2:26
  Scott Clary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. HubSpot not only
• 2:31
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• 3:22
  People know your story. People kind of know you for never split the difference. They know you
• 3:29
  for speaking about negotiation tactics in your past life and business, and otherwise,
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  I don't just want to rehash the same stuff that you've spoken about before. So right now,
• 3:40
  in your world, what's exciting you? What's new? What's different?
• 3:43
  Yeah, well, thanks. Appreciate that. Same Patrick state. We're doing a two-day March,
• 3:50
  yeah, same panties days March, 2025. We're doing a two-day negotiation mastery summit in Louis,
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  Wilkins, Turkey. This is the first big summit that we've done, and I'm looking forward to it.
• 4:03
  It's going to be great. First of all, Louisville. Different. It's going to be fun to be in Louisville.
• 4:09
  Now, why do we pick Louisville? Well, actually, we're putting out a bourbon called the Difference,
• 4:15
  which is we're going to screen it. We're going to give people an opportunity to taste it
• 4:19
  at Louisville. And while we're getting ready to put the bourbon together, I'm like,
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  Louisville's a fun place. It's a lot of the beaten path. If we're going to put together monstrous
• 4:28
  learning event for mastery of negotiation, let's do it here. It's a cool place to go.
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  So it's going to be a fun place Louisville is interesting. Two days, what makes a difference
• 4:40
  between two days and one day? Two days is because you need the intervening night to bake the
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  information in your brain. You don't just get the same amount of learning if you go to one day training.
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  So we're going to immerse people the first day in the skills. It's going to bake in overnight.
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  And when you come back the next day, you're going to be better ready for day two.
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  We are doing a fair amount of prep. We've got a, we've done a couple of webinars. We're going to
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  do another one, the seven baby steps to prepare for the quantum leap. We teach people you want to
• 5:17
  get a little bit better every day. And for a variety of reasons, that's a great approach to improvement,
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  just a little better every day. Because then if you have a bad day, if you're hung over,
• 5:30
  if you're significant in other yells, if you're dog bites, yeah, dog bites, a male man,
• 5:37
  and you lose that day, you haven't lost a lot. You can pick yourself back up, go in the next day.
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  But now, what do you want to do if you want to do a quantum leap? What if you want to get seven
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  months of improvement in two days? You come to a two day immersion. So the Black Swan groups,
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  two day negotiation mastery summit, it's either the 16th or the 17th or the 17th and 18th of March.
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  But you find it, I'll put in the show notes too. So we'll have the links and everything in the
• 6:04
  show notes too. Yeah, it's, it's going to be awesome. And we're also, we've got some additional
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  benefits for attending the two days. So to be cool, I'm looking forward to it. It's the first big
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  one we've ever done is why I'm really excited. It's the first time we've gone big and we're going
• 6:20
  big this time. First of all, I don't know what's, I don't know what's harder. They're killing
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  negotiation or to put on like an exceptionally well planned two day super large event. That's
• 6:35
  also not so easy. We're looking forward to it. Yeah. No, I'm looking forward to it too. Tell me,
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  when you, when you think about all the topics that you're going to talk about and discuss,
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  I know that you speak now on business, empathy, AI, these are very hot topics. So what's the
• 6:56
  content that you're going to discuss that is something people are asking you about now that maybe
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  five years ago, I'm assuming some do with technology, something that people are asking about today
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  that they weren't so concerned about when it comes to AI negotiations, how it's going to impact
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  it to any degree that that concept. Yeah, well, there's two really interesting topics there.
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  And I'm going to sort them out. I'm going to set AI off AI off to the side for a second.
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  In terms of learning, everybody wants what's new to start with. So there's a phrase, nobody
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  steps in the same river twice. You're not the same person and it's not the same river.
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  So even if we were to go back over information that we said exactly the same way we did five years
• 7:39
  ago, which we don't, you're going to hear it differently. You are going to be a different person.
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  If you've been studying this, you got smarter. If you haven't been studying this,
• 7:49
  in point of fact, you are smarter anyway. You've got more emotional intelligence than you did
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  five years ago. You're going to hear stuff that we have never said before. Now,
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  we're both using AI and why will our live training always be ahead of AI?
• 8:07
  Because we're always innovating. Like AI is a copy of the knowledge as it exists in a given moment
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  time and that freezes it. It's a little bit the same reason why the the US beat the Russians to the
• 8:20
  moon when the Russians were the first ones in outer space. Once we got into the space race,
• 8:27
  the Russian strategy was to steal everything that we invented, which meant they were copying it,
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  which meant it took a little while for them to steal it, to copy it, to think about it,
• 8:38
  to do it. And the amount of time it takes to copy existing information, the innovators continue to
• 8:44
  get better. We continue to get better. We're talking about stuff that we've never talked about
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  before, talking about the different levels of labels. I did a special training for a high-end
• 8:54
  group in Arizona about a month ago. One of the blacks won skills is the i-message. I thought I'd
• 9:02
  laid it out to this group in detail. And the i-message is just complicated enough. It's a high-level
• 9:10
  advanced skill. So first, I got to make sure you got the basics and even the people who had the
• 9:16
  essentials we that we workshopped i-messages for each one of their individual scenarios.
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  And then they got it. So we're going to workshop i-messages. If you're using them,
• 9:30
  it's going to sound harsh. You're probably missing the mark. There wasn't anybody in the room
• 9:36
  that they that got it either exactly right or knew the exact moment to use an i-message. What's an
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  i-message for? An i-message is for somebody is killing you with scope creep. An i-message is somebody
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  who's chipping away at you, asking for extra things after the deal has been signed, which is, by the way,
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  a technique that's taught by the lesser negotiation methodologies. And it's like going to the
• 10:08
  tailor getting a tailored suit and after you've agreed on the suit and he's measuring you're looking
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  at the tailor and saying, how many free ties do I get? Now, there are a bunch of people that are
• 10:18
  doing that. The problem with that is you got the free ties, but you don't realize at the tailor
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  and never going to tailor another suit for you. Or when he does, he's not going to give you the same
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  attention to detail. So businesses are getting caught up in this all the time. The remedy is the i-message
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  and it's complicated surgical strike and we're going to go into it in great depth so people really
• 10:42
  understand how to make it work and not make an enemy and that could kill being nickeled and dined
• 10:47
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• 12:11
  This brings me to an interesting thought and I guess there's a very simple question but obviously
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  it's something that has to be answered. What part of negotiation do people have a hard time
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  wrapping their minds around? Why do they still get it wrong even after spending time with you
• 12:30
  consuming your podcast? What's the thing? It doesn't click and why? They're mainly three things.
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  Now this is going to be dependent upon you. Each individual that's listening to me now,
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  you have a natural born conflict type, you either fight flight or make friends,
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  analyst, assertive or a comedy. Now if you're an assertive, if you're the Donald Trump type
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  and Donald Trump is a great poster child for the assertive negotiator, like you get what you
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  want in the moment and it's celebratory and it's big wins and then people stop dealing with you,
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  you can't get them to pick up the phone, you can't get them to come to a meeting,
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  you can't get them to sign the deal, they get gunshot and Ivanka Trump once said of her father,
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  look my dad's just direct and honest, but everybody else thinks he's blunt and harsh.
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  Well, unless you can unleash MAGA on somebody, you can't get away with being blunt and harsh,
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  you got to have an army behind you and most people don't have an army behind them.
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  Maybe it's just you, maybe you're dependent upon the good will of the long term relationship.
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  So as an assertive, what you don't get is what you think is your strength is going to work
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  against you in the long run. You're too blunt, you're too harsh, I'm a natural born assertive.
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  You know, I got to find out a way to use a downward inflecting voice or smile or use self-effacing
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  humor or using empathy before I assert. So that's one problem, people not knowing how to use empathy
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  instead of assertion, it's in front of assertion. Now the accommodator, the relationship oriented
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  person, opposite approach. People love dealing with you, loving.
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  But you make them wonder what you really want because you're afraid that you're being too assertive.
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  You're scared of scaring them off and you're making them read your mind and making them guess what you
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  want. So you need to be more clear and clarity is not violence. They need the people want to deal with
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  you. They want to know what you want. They want to make a great deal with you long term. Don't make
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  them guess. So keep your same mannerisms, very pleasant, always enjoyable to deal with.
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  And come out and say what you want. That's the third thing that people don't get the analyst.
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  You're making them guess too. You're keeping your cards very close to the vest
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  and you're analyzing 5,000 moves ahead. And you're coming off as cold and distant. If people
• 15:31
  don't feel connected to you. But you can't imagine that's true because deep down inside,
• 15:35
  you get tons of people that love you and tons of people that you love. And you can't imagine
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  if people see who's cold and distant or often when they do, you feel it to your advantage. But you
• 15:45
  drive a business away and you're making people guess and you're not sharing information because
• 15:51
  you're afraid of getting caught off guard. So it's kind of three three different things that are
• 15:55
  type dependent and the world is crazy as it sounds. And I know this sounds crazy.
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  It breaks up evenly into the three types. Whether you're a New Yorker, you live in Beijing,
• 16:10
  you live in Beirut, you live in Bangkok. The world splits up evenly in the thirds.
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  I would assume because you probably see this quite a bit with some of the people that work with
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  you. I would assume when people try, because most people are not negotiating in a hostage situation.
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  Most people, especially people who have listened to this show are negotiating in a business context.
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  And I'm curious if you see people who follow the Trumps of the world. And they see how Trump
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  negotiates at this stage in his life. And they're thinking, well, I'm just starting out,
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  let me try and mirror him or let me try and copy him, even though he's at a much different stage
• 16:52
  in his life, then you are just starting your business as a new entrepreneur. And I'm assuming
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  that backfires 11 out of 10 times. You know, backfires summon and be careful about
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  assuming how he negotiates based on what you report in the media. I read the art of the deal
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  way back when it's the 1980s book. I was in New York at the time. Donald Trump's the New York guy.
• 17:19
  You know, there's some my world that his world came very close, but never actually overlapped.
• 17:26
  We actually attended the same church. A minister that he was very close to was a good friend of mine.
• 17:33
  I threw Donald Trump was gracious enough to support a fundraiser for the suicide hotline I
• 17:39
  volunteered at and held it in his apartment from tile. So that's all to say, you know, I
• 17:47
  assessed Donald Trump based on what I read in the art of the deal versus what you're seeing in
• 17:52
  the media because the media is going to give you a snapshot distorted view. It's hard. It's like
• 17:58
  a picture, a photograph that's out of context. So Donald Trump and in the art of the deal is a
• 18:04
  thoughtful guy and liked people who knew how to handle it and based on respect. So what's the
• 18:12
  original question? If you're modeling Donald Trump, don't model what you see in the media.
• 18:17
  Read the art of the deal. He loves difference. He loves people who stand up for themselves
• 18:28
  in a very quiet way. Look at his relationship with his son in law, Jared.
• 18:34
  Jared is not a chair kicking kind of guy. And it appears that they get along very well. So,
• 18:40
  you know, just dig in a little bit deeper, whichever type you are looking at and be careful about
• 18:46
  taking a one-dimensional or two-dimensional snapshot based on media reports. Now, the flip side is
• 18:53
  of each of the types that I mentioned, your natural born strength, the thing that you like,
• 18:59
  your go-to is essential and inadequate. So the part of Donald Trump's
• 19:06
  negotiation style as perceived that's essential is you got to let the other side know what you want.
• 19:13
  And he is clear about what he wants. So, you can say it in a nice way. And my understanding is
• 19:22
  on a regular basis and one-on-one meetings, the meetings go great. And he can be charming
• 19:28
  and complete, could be a completely different conversation. So, yes, be clear about what you want.
• 19:34
  You could just say it in a nice way. One thing that I want to unpack to conflicting ideas
• 19:41
  from a layman, they're conflicting ideas. And hear me out. Of course. So, you don't like the idea win-win.
• 19:50
  That's one idea. I don't like what art. So, I don't like people who use it as a tactic
• 19:56
  to weft. I don't like people who weaponize it. Okay, I want to understand that. How do you weaponize
• 20:04
  win-win? Because the conflicting idea, so you just put out a book on empathy and understanding
• 20:10
  in business. And empathy and understanding, it seems like that would be like the outcome of
• 20:16
  be like a win-win if you actually understand the person. So, explain to me what the difference
• 20:20
  between being empathetic and having a mutually beneficial outcome from a deal versus weaponizing
• 20:27
  win-win. Okay, weaponizing win-win to start with. Let's start there. My experience on a regular
• 20:33
  basis, and you know, it's just the star and narrow one-to-one correlation. Like, if you start
• 20:39
  talking to me and you say, right away, you want to win-win deal. If I head in the first minute
• 20:45
  to five, what you want is for you to win period. You're trying to get me to do a lot for little
• 20:54
  or nothing. Now, when win-win, when it came out, there are a lot of people like, yeah, of course.
• 21:00
  Yeah, let's collaborate. And then they would give up the store, give away the store,
• 21:09
  expecting the same in return. And so the cut-throat negotiators, like, okay, if I say this right away,
• 21:20
  there's a pretty good chance, I'm gonna get everything I want really fast.
• 21:26
  So, it's become a tactic very much like the word fair that can be used to gain a psychological
• 21:38
  transactional short-term slaughter or the other side. Like, you put a, they used to call a
• 21:45
  create value versus claim value. You know, the win-win guys or the create value, let's create value
• 21:52
  together. And the claim value guys are the highly transactional, maximize the term short-term.
• 21:59
  Let me kill you. I'm gonna, I got you over barrel in the cut-throat. And you put a claim value
• 22:06
  guy up against a create value guy and a claim value guy just wipes the, yeah, the attacker wipes
• 22:13
  you the guy out. The claim value wipes the creator out. So you could be highly vulnerable. Now,
• 22:20
  separately, you sort of ask me about what essentially is the spirit of win-win.
• 22:26
  And the crazy thing is, people think it's the monetary terms. When it's really
• 22:35
  how involved with I was I in the transaction, how do I feel respected?
• 22:40
  Something other than a deal, it's not, but it's the emotional process. And so the deal might not
• 22:50
  be that great. The best deal might not be that great for your short term, but you felt a full
• 22:54
  participant in the process. It's one of the reasons why my Harvard brothers and sisters love this
• 23:00
  concept, the yesable proposition. You know, let me create a proposition that's so wonderful
• 23:08
  that all you got to do is say yes. So were I to lay that in front of you,
• 23:17
  you didn't feel involved at all. Like you didn't have a say in it. You know, you're, you're,
• 23:23
  you're a slave in a gilded cage. It's still a cage. It doesn't matter that it's gilded.
• 23:30
  And so it's inherently unsatisfying for you. Now, let's say we go back and we get into a process
• 23:37
  you're fully engaged every step of the way. And by deal terms, it's actually worse for you than
• 23:44
  than the first one, which was the yesable proposition, you're going to prefer the one you were
• 23:48
  fully engaged in because you were there. You got involved. You were respected. What you said
• 23:54
  mattered and you felt it was a joint outcome. So what am I driving at? When, when is more of
• 24:02
  emotional concept? Did you feel like you were treated with respect? Were you involved?
• 24:09
  Then you're going to feel like you won separate and apart from what the actual deal terms are.
• 24:15
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  no credit card required. And for all you success story listeners out there, I've got something
• 26:52
  special. Get an exclusive 60% off for six months when you visit freshbooks.com slash pricing
• 26:58
  dash offer. Transform your business with fresh books today. That's freshbooks.com slash pricing
• 27:04
  dash offer for 60% off. So if somebody does want to look for a partner, a business partner,
• 27:14
  join venture that will actually include you in part of the process before you go too far down
• 27:23
  the rabbit hole in that deal. What are the signals that you should look for? Obviously it's not
• 27:28
  them saying I want this to be a win-win. So what are the signals that you should look for?
• 27:32
  That this is somebody that you would want to do business with and negotiate with?
• 27:36
  Well, you know, if you don't see eye to eye, how do they react? Are they rolling over you?
• 27:42
  Or do they want to actually hear what you have to say? Are they looking at you as a source of
• 27:47
  information? Because at some point in time, in any deal, you're not going to see eye to eye.
• 27:56
  So what you really are is you want to gauge what that moment's going to look like.
• 28:02
  Is it going to be collaborative? And you can start to gauge that from the very beginning. Are
• 28:07
  they treating you as if someone who's to be used and abused? And there's a lot of that going on
• 28:14
  in private equity right now. Private equity in any company they're going to buy. They're going to say
• 28:20
  all right. So is the CEO coachable? If he or she is, there's pretty good chance there's a long-term
• 28:28
  play here. If they're coachable, we can actually help them with processes. And there'll be worth
• 28:35
  more money. So do they ask good questions? Do they listen? Do they take initiative? Are they coachable?
• 28:43
  All right. So it's a highly valuable company. CEO is not coachable. Can we kick the management
• 28:49
  team out, take over and make the value ourselves? Or do we buy it in strictly assets? And these
• 28:56
  are the three things that every private equity is looking for. Have you got good core processes
• 29:02
  but bad management, right? Management's got to go. Good, good core processes, but maybe B level
• 29:11
  management that's coachable. All right. We'll bring you guys in because you're committed.
• 29:16
  You got a few components that are more viable than the company in its entirety. We're going to buy
• 29:21
  you and we're going to take you apart. So knowing that that's how the other side is looking at you
• 29:26
  in a deal, now you got to gauge what do you want to do? What do they look like? And are they
• 29:32
  looking at me like a lion looking at a stake? Or are they looking at me as a suitor and a business
• 29:42
  gathering? Who's looking for a long-term relationship? And you're going to get a feel for that very early
• 29:48
  on. If you open yourself up to it. Yeah, that's an interesting, that's a really interesting point.
• 29:55
  I mean, you just mentioned it in the context of private equity and a business owner selling
• 29:59
  their business. But I would say that the same, the same thought should be given to if you're
• 30:08
  raising money and you want to bring an angel on or a VC on or whether or not it's just a single
• 30:15
  person or a whole group. I mean, how are they going to operate after the deal is done? And you do
• 30:21
  want it to be quote unquote win-win. You want them to add value. You want them to understand when
• 30:27
  things don't go right into help you out. You don't want them to start firing off your employees or if
• 30:32
  they acquire you laying off the whole staff. These are stresses for entrepreneurs and founders.
• 30:38
  But I don't think they know how to navigate that situation. I think because there's a motion and
• 30:42
  there's money tied up into it. I think people make a lot of poor decisions because there's so many
• 30:46
  things that are clouding their judgment when they're trying to make that call. Yeah. And so
• 30:53
  separating out your amygdala, your fear centers or your hope centers from your gut instinct.
• 30:59
  And great entrepreneurs, great business people begin to learn to their gut instinct, which is
• 31:03
  overriding their hopes and fears early on. Because your gut instinct asks you got what you've
• 31:10
  got telling you. Not what are you afraid is going to happen? What do you hope is going to happen?
• 31:14
  Those are the two things of club your judgment. You know, if you hope something nice is going to
• 31:18
  happen, you got what we refer to as happy years. Got happy years. You know, hope is not a strategy. It's
• 31:25
  a drug that's hoping which interferes in your ability to hear what the other side is really saying.
• 31:31
  Or if you're fear-based, oh my god. You know, I get I get I get cheese like this one other time. Ain't
• 31:37
  I'm never going to let it happen again. Well, now that's clouding your judgment too. And so
• 31:42
  the challenge is, how do you listen to your gut? Look for yellow flags, not red flags.
• 31:50
  Look for a stop to make your go. Hmm. I don't know what that means. Well, that's a yellow flag.
• 31:57
  And you start to accumulate the yellow flags and you find they add up pretty quickly.
• 32:01
  You talk a lot and speak a lot about empathy in business.
• 32:07
  Define how you oh, this is going to I'm saying it the wrong way. I was going to say,
• 32:10
  define how you leverage empathy for business, but that's already insinuating that you're using it
• 32:14
  to a means to an end. What is the what is the proper way to use empathy in business so that you
• 32:21
  get what you want, but you also don't get taken advantage of? Yeah. Okay. So let's define empathy
• 32:28
  first. Let's define it as simply assessment. And the articulation of your assessment.
• 32:36
  Empathy is not sympathy. Empathy is not agreement. Empathy is not compassion.
• 32:41
  Friend of mine, Stephen Collar, Shronson, read a number of books that are worth reading.
• 32:45
  The rise of Superman and Staling Fire too great of my favorites that Stephen wrote.
• 32:51
  And in one of his books, he said empathy is about the transmission of information.
• 32:56
  Compassion is the reaction to that transmission. So empathy truly understand where the other
• 33:03
  sides coming from. Even if you don't like it and then being able to articulate it from their
• 33:10
  perspective. What does that look like? You think I'm being unfair. You think I'm greedy.
• 33:19
  You think that I don't care about you at all. Those are empathy statements. I never agreed nor
• 33:28
  disagreed. I just pointed out what my gut instinct is telling me that you're thinking.
• 33:36
  And we teach tactical empathy as the articulation, the expression of what your gut is telling you about
• 33:43
  their perspective. If you take away agreement or disagreement, then you can be empathic with
• 33:50
  anyone. A member of Hamas can be empathetic with someone from Israel and vice versa.
• 33:59
  Because it's not agreement or disagreement. So if somebody from Hamas can do it with somebody
• 34:03
  from Israel, that means you could do it too. If you define it that way. Now business,
• 34:09
  it's the way of analyzing. So let me analyze what you're probably thinking.
• 34:18
  Let me feed it back to you. You're going to feel very connected to me. It's actually going to
• 34:25
  open up the channels. One of the phrases which is the cliche about negotiation is the biggest
• 34:31
  myth about communication is the biggest myth about communication is that it's taken place.
• 34:38
  Now people hear that and they say, oh, I just have to express myself better.
• 34:45
  Now the opposite is true. Listening hasn't been taken place. Hearing took place. I heard what you
• 34:53
  said, but did I analyze it? Did I think about what it meant? You know, the whole grade school thing,
• 34:59
  probably in seventh grade, somebody you had a teacher that said, what's the difference between
• 35:03
  listening and hearing? I can still remember that. But the difference is, did you analyze what they
• 35:09
  said and discern its true meaning? Which means you're not agreeing with it.
• 35:15
  Which now puts it in the business context. And then certain predictable things based on fears.
• 35:20
  You're going to feel at some point in time I'm asking for too much. You're going to feel at
• 35:24
  some point in time I'm being disrespectful. You're going to feel at some point in time I got
• 35:29
  a hidden agenda because I won't give to the point. But you're saying that begins to clear the
• 35:36
  air and it puts me in a position to move forward with you. Two thoughts on that. First thought
• 35:44
  should you actually articulate that to the person that you're speaking to. And then second thought,
• 35:49
  how do you make sure that your own lens that you see the world through does not impact
• 35:57
  how you infer what they think because it's good to be empathetic. But you're going to have your own
• 36:04
  world view that's going to impact. So yes, so should you articulate that and why? And then how do you
• 36:08
  stop your own lens from fogging it all up? Yeah. First of all, you should. Like in any time we
• 36:14
  gots telling you, you should. And there's aspects to it that when we're coaching in negotiations,
• 36:21
  we're going to ask you to lead with like in a first meeting, you're going to you can say to
• 36:27
  him, look at some point in time, you're probably going to ask yourself, whether or not you're
• 36:32
  wasting your time with me. Because they're probably 60 seconds into the meeting. They're thinking
• 36:38
  that what this does is this deactivates and inoculates. Most people think of plants
• 36:44
  fears. It does. You can't plan a fear. You can just you can plan it if you deny it.
• 36:49
  If I could say to you like, look, I don't want you to think I'm being greedy. You're going to be like,
• 36:53
  oh, I got to cover my wallet. Here it comes. And I can say, look, it's probably going to seem greedy.
• 37:03
  And then when I lay out what I want, your reaction to that is going to be like, oh, well,
• 37:08
  actually, that was just honest. I appreciate you being honest with me.
• 37:13
  So those are examples of why you should go ahead and call it out in the moment or even in advance.
• 37:20
  Now does my lens interfere with me seeing it? Yes, that's why you want to lay out what you think
• 37:27
  the other side saying. Because for not just your lens, you know, your angles on it leading up to
• 37:36
  this moment. So I frequently say, and coach people say, look, before we go on, here's how I think
• 37:42
  you see things. Now I'm going to lay it out in wherever my vision has been clouded.
• 37:52
  If I approach you with genuine curiosity, not judgment, I can't say, here's how I think you see
• 37:58
  things. You know, my tone of voice is telling you negative things about my thought patterns towards you.
• 38:08
  But if instead I say, all right, so before we go on before, here's how I think you see things.
• 38:12
  You know, that's exploratory collaborative. Whatever I'm missing, whatever I'm wrong on,
• 38:19
  you're going to want to correct me because the urge to correct is actually very satisfying,
• 38:23
  and you're going to feel good about it. So that's how you keep your filter from getting in the
• 38:29
  way. Check it with the other side and invite correction. Thank you, NetSuite for supporting today's
• 38:34
  episode. Now what does the future hold for business? If you ask nine experts, you're going to get
• 38:39
  10 answers, bull market, bear market, inflation up, inflation down. Honestly, I just need a crystal ball.
• 38:45
  But until we get one over 41,000 businesses have found the next best thing. They future proved
• 38:52
  their operations with NetSuite by Oracle, which is the number one cloud ERP. Imagine having your
• 38:58
  accounting, your financial management, your inventory, your HR, all flowing together in one fluid
• 39:04
  platform. Here's what makes NetSuite different. It gives you one source of truth for your business.
• 39:09
  You get the visibility and control to make quick, confident decisions while others are guessing
• 39:14
  you're working with real-time data, insights, forecasting. You're basically looking into the future
• 39:19
  of your business with actionable data. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds
• 39:25
  of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and helps you grab your biggest
• 39:30
  opportunities. And speaking of opportunities, they put together the CFO's guide to AI and
• 39:34
  machine learning at NetSuite.com slash Scott Clary. This is the playbook for understanding how to use
• 39:41
  AI for your business. The guide is free. Go to NetSuite.com slash Scott Clary. That is NetSuite.com slash
• 39:48
  Scott Clary. One last question. When people deploy this tactic and then I want to move on to
• 39:55
  something, a couple other ideas. But when people deploy this tactic, what would one thing be that
• 40:01
  they get wrong the majority of the time? What is one common misconception about deploying tactical
• 40:06
  empathy? First of all, your perspective is their perspective. Even if your perspective is
• 40:14
  accurate, they're going to have a different perspective. Common misconception is that you guys
• 40:21
  are on the same sheet of music. You see things the same way. Among other common misconceptions,
• 40:28
  they got to go first and you got to lay out your position first. That's the mark of an average
• 40:34
  negotiator. So I need the information in your head, which is why I'm going to invite you to go
• 40:41
  first. And then two out of three negotiators, it's impossible for them to shut up.
• 40:49
  Shut up more. You're going to find that in those golden moments of silence,
• 40:56
  they're either going to bond with you or they're going to give you information.
• 41:00
  All those things are good. You know, it's so funny. That's one thing that I remember one way,
• 41:07
  way, way back in a past life when I was in sales. And I can't remember who told me this, but the
• 41:12
  the sentence was whoever talks less wins. That was it. And so far, I mean, this is what I do for
• 41:20
  a living. I try and talk as little as possible and just let the guest. Now, it's not a negotiation.
• 41:25
  It's hopefully, hopefully, it's beneficial to both of us. But yes, when you shut up, good
• 41:29
  things happen. When you shut up, good things happen. Amen. Let's talk about people being deceitful,
• 41:39
  counterfeit, yeses. I thought it was so interesting because when I was first putting, you know,
• 41:44
  some of these talking points together, of course, I like to call them lies. I'm pretty sure
• 41:48
  that's what the rest of the world calls them. You don't like to call them lies. So this plays a
• 41:53
  big piece of negotiation. Obviously, you have to figure out what's the truth and what's not.
• 41:58
  First of all, why do you not like calling lies lies? Because of the emotional reaction to it,
• 42:07
  you know, lies slash deception, the vast majority of it is the set defensive in nature.
• 42:16
  People are deceiving people like as they scared because they're afraid to tell the truth.
• 42:24
  Now, that doesn't mean they're trying to victimize you. They're scared of the relationship.
• 42:30
  They're scared as you're going to say, no, they don't know how to tell you the truth.
• 42:35
  So the deception takes place on a massive level. But it's not predatory. It's some of it is
• 42:43
  predatory, a small percentage. What's the percentage? I mean, let me put it like this. There's a
• 42:51
  guess that the incidence of someone being a social path or a psychopath.
• 42:59
  I was trying to read the current differences in the definitions that social paths are somebody that
• 43:05
  intentionally pray upon you in the moment. A psychopath is somebody who plans on
• 43:13
  praying on you in a future moment. So it's a it's a planning issue.
• 43:19
  One in 35. So that means 34 out of 35, if that number holds.
• 43:29
  When they deceive you, they're not trying to victimize you. 34 out of 35 lies, let's say,
• 43:36
  is this defensive? They don't know how to tell you the truth there. They don't know how to fix it
• 43:40
  if they do. It's it's all fear based not necessarily the same as being a coward. Those are two
• 43:47
  different instances. But fear based because they're trying to preserve the relationship with
• 43:53
  it and how to get around it. So why am I going on this rant? Yes, it exists all the time.
• 43:58
  Stop yourself from being triggered on it. You're going to assume that they're lying to you because
• 44:01
  they're trying to victimize you. That's that's not the case. 34 out of 35 times.
• 44:10
  So you encourage people to become straight shooters and how do you do that? You deactivate their fears.
• 44:17
  How do you do that? You say it's probably stuff you're holding back. You're scared if you tell me
• 44:21
  it's going to blow off the deal. I know. You've got things that you're afraid to tell me
• 44:29
  because you think if I know I'll exploit you. Me even sharing that recognition
• 44:38
  is going to get you to start to loosen up. Now my walk has to match my talk. And I'm very careful
• 44:46
  about that. But I'm also very concerned about if I say something that doesn't add up to you,
• 44:53
  you're going to instinctively react that I'm trying to hurt you.
• 44:58
  So I got to be careful about making sure those two things add up. I got to be careful about being
• 45:02
  vague. I'm going to, in fact, under promise instead of over promise. And then I got to talk to
• 45:10
  with you about how we're going to fix things when we come to the inevitable glitches that
• 45:16
  life rings in no matter what happens. So that's one way to get the person you're speaking with
• 45:22
  to feel more comfortable. Now, is there ways to detect whether or not they're giving you counterfeit
• 45:28
  guesses or lies regardless? Is there a way to figure that out? Say you've done all of that.
• 45:33
  Right. You still want to make sure because sometimes somebody is not just going to open up. It's not
• 45:38
  100% success rate that they're all of a sudden going to be like, yes, this is what's wrong. And
• 45:42
  you know what, we're being sued. And you know, our revenues aren't what I'm saying they are
• 45:47
  and all this stuff that you want them to say. Say they still have these counterfeit guesses.
• 45:52
  How do you catch? How do you catch those? Well, first of all, I'm learning the word yes at all
• 45:57
  because people are afraid to say yes. There's misgivings with the yes. Yes, it feels like a trap
• 46:01
  for the person who says yes. There's always this fear of what am I let myself in for that I don't know
• 46:08
  about. So in order to stay away from that, I stay away from the work. And so I'm going to start
• 46:14
  summarizing, I'm going to start inviting for your correction and inviting your clarity. And
• 46:20
  in those corrections, people correct with the truth. So you're much more likely to tell me the truth
• 46:26
  and the correction than as opposed to a straight question. Because we're asking you questions going to
• 46:32
  make you feel interrogated, which is also going to work against our relationship. So there are all
• 46:39
  these little points of friction in the communication process that we're actually taught we should do
• 46:45
  but instead increase the friction. And one of them is asking questions.
• 46:51
  So I don't ask questions. I say things that invite your responses. A question is designed to
• 46:57
  elicit a response to corner you to extract the information from you. Instead of extracting
• 47:06
  information, I'm inviting you to give it to me. It's going to change things completely. A big thank you
• 47:10
  to indeed for supporting success story because hiring people is one of the hardest things you're ever
• 47:14
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• 48:27
  credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed dot com slash clary terms conditions do apply
• 48:33
  just go to indeed dot com slash clary a huge thank you to net suite for supporting today's episode now
• 48:39
  what does the future hold for business if you ask nine experts you're going to get 10 answers
• 48:44
  bull market bear market inflation up inflation down honestly at this point you just need a crystal ball
• 48:49
  but until we get one over 41,000 businesses have found the next best thing they future proof
• 48:56
  their businesses their operations with net suite by oracle which is the number one cloud ERP
• 49:01
  imagine having your accounting your financial management your inventory your HR all flowing together
• 49:07
  in one fluid platform and here's what makes net suite different it gives you one source of truth
• 49:12
  for your business you get the visibility and control to make quick confident decisions while others
• 49:16
  are guessing you're working with real time data insights forecasting you're basically looking
• 49:22
  in the future of your business with actionable data whether your company earns a couple million
• 49:27
  or even hundreds of millions net suite helps you respond to immediate challenges and helps you grab
• 49:32
  your biggest opportunities and speaking of opportunities they put together the CFO's guide to AI
• 49:37
  and machine learning and net suite dot com slash Scott clary this is the playbook for understanding how
• 49:42
  to use AI for your business the guide is free that is net suite dot com slash Scott clary a shadow
• 49:48
  to Nord VPN for supporting today's episode I have to tell you a story so I was actually in Toronto
• 49:52
  visiting family last month and I went to binge some of my favorite Netflix shows I forgot and
• 49:57
  I realized that half of my US shows weren't available in Canada super annoying flipped on Nord VPN
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  trust me it's worth checking out especially if you travel or stream content regularly that's
• 51:04
  nord VPN dot com slash success when you detect that somebody has again fabricated truth
• 51:15
  what would be your recommendation for somebody to preserve that relationship or should they not
• 51:20
  yeah you shouldn't in point of fact I mean you're going to gauge it to some degree because
• 51:26
  it's impossible to escape white lies now how broad a definition of white light is from the other side
• 51:34
  the problem with human behavior is how you do something is how you do everything
• 51:40
  so if they started to lie to you even if you can get them to be straight which you can tell you
• 51:44
  the truth uh the lion they're using that methodology to get by another parts of the world
• 51:50
  which is going to make it difficult for them to deliver so there's always going to be
• 51:56
  delivery and implementation problems with people that are getting by with lies and exaggerations
• 52:00
  it's gonna it's gonna hit the skids at some point in time no matter how good you can get
• 52:06
  information from them so that's an indicator of problems to come and those problems to come
• 52:12
  are very expensive so in in my in my early training of everybody comes onto my team
• 52:22
  they think that if you work for christmas the negotiation company the black swan group
• 52:27
  the greatest negotiators in a while then I'm going to expect you to make every deal and my answer is
• 52:34
  no somebody who takes a long time to get the deal somebody who takes a long time to get implementation
• 52:42
  somebody that we have to double check everything they say these are expensive people
• 52:50
  and we're gonna walk away from them so when we catch you dealing with us like that
• 52:57
  we're gonna we're gonna do if uh take a number of approaches with you where we're just like no
• 53:06
  no we're not doing it uh we can't do that I'm sorry but we're very clear in what we won't do and
• 53:13
  then actually you're more likely to walk away from us because we're immobile one thing that you
• 53:21
  spoken about a few times and I just want to touch on it because I think it's interesting for
• 53:24
  the audience I know that you think you did a whole podcast on it but you spoken about negotiating
• 53:29
  with narcissists and I think it's a really and that word gets thrown around a lot and it's a very
• 53:36
  like a topical on-vogue word so for somebody listening to this so they're like oh great he's
• 53:44
  gonna teach me how to you know deal with my husband or boy no I think people throw the word around
• 53:50
  narcissists too often so how do you know when you're negotiating with somebody you actually
• 53:56
  is has some sort of definable mental trait who's out to get you versus somebody who's just
• 54:04
  difficult and secondly if you do find yourself in a negotiation a relationship with a narcissist
• 54:10
  what are some tips to deal with that um yeah so the more confusing they are the more you
• 54:22
  feel guilty somebody's truly narcissistic their whole goal is to destabilize you
• 54:31
  and they're gonna flip back and forth from being a victim to being a persecutor how are you
• 54:36
  failing oh the answer was horrible uh life is really overwhelming for me or what you just said
• 54:45
  is not helping at all those I'm toggling back and forth from being a victim to being a persecutor
• 54:53
  and I'm enjoying moving around from those two positions is this old thing called the drama triangle
• 55:01
  which has held since I've been aware of it in the early 1990s and somebody's manipulating you
• 55:08
  is gonna move back and forth from being a victim a persecutor or a rescuer and they will never stay
• 55:17
  in one of those positions long because as soon as you try to hone in on that position they're gonna
• 55:23
  jump to another one I need your help all that was a stupid idea victim to persecutor I need your
• 55:33
  help no you're not doing it right here's how I'm gonna help you victim to rescuer so just ask
• 55:42
  yourself for the jumping back and forth between those three things if they aren't in their
• 55:46
  narcissist they're manipulating you the manipulation is the objective of the communication there is
• 55:52
  no other objective now somebody who's just as functional make their behavior the path to the goal
• 56:01
  make your goal the path to their goal and what's that look like in a kidnapping I'd say
• 56:09
  I'm not supposed to appear if I don't know you're gonna let the hostage go they want the money
• 56:14
  oh all right let him go gives me where I want to go cool I'm cool I'm good with that in a business
• 56:22
  deal how are we supposed to continue this relationship if every time I talked you you asked me for
• 56:29
  something different oh they're scatterbrained you just told them they need to be focused they need
• 56:36
  to remember what they did before if they're a narcissist then they're gonna blame you for not
• 56:42
  listening now they are persecuting you no I was gonna say I think it's important to identify
• 56:48
  the difference because first of all in a business context I hear the word narcissist run around a lot
• 56:55
  in a relationship context as well this is not a commentary on whether or not they are good to do
• 57:00
  business with if they are dysfunctional there is a very valid reason for you to exit that relationship
• 57:05
  regardless however I think that it is important to understand that if you can align objectives
• 57:12
  and the person is dysfunctional there could still be an outcome depending on the severity of the
• 57:17
  condition versus somebody who has no interest in mutually beneficial outcomes and their only
• 57:24
  purpose on this earth is to make your life a living hell is there a way to negotiate with that
• 57:32
  actual narcissist or is that a relationship you exit a hundred percent of the time my advice is
• 57:39
  to exit a hundred percent of the time like the it's not a sin to not get the deal it's a sin to take
• 57:45
  a long time to not get the deal it's also a sin to take a long time to get a bad deal so if you
• 57:51
  negotiating with a narcissist either you're not going to get the deal or you're going to get a bad
• 57:56
  deal either way you've committed a sin because you're most valuable commodity at the end of the
• 58:01
  days you're a time and the narcissist is standing in the way of the people that want to be great
• 58:10
  partners to you now this is very hard to feel because they can be so obscuring your view of reality
• 58:17
  and so obscuring your view of the coming opportunities that you don't see it but we're seeing it
• 58:24
  over and over again play out on a regular basis the narcissist are blocking the good people
• 58:31
  from getting to you and so the sooner you exit from a narcissist the sooner the other people
• 58:36
  who want to do business with you genuinely show up when you engage in a negotiation
• 58:45
  let's say not a narcissist but somebody who you do not have a past relationship with
• 58:51
  just some very high-level thoughts what are the boundaries that you want to set I mean you always
• 58:57
  you're very famous for saying always start with no you can mention that briefly if you want
• 59:02
  but other other sort of high-level ideas that you want people to start to think about when they
• 59:08
  go into a relationship go into a negotiation for the first time well I like to get a line on what
• 59:17
  somebody's core values are fairly quickly so let's say I'm hired a plumber I'm gonna say you know
• 59:29
  what do you love about what you do for living when you start asking somebody about what they
• 59:36
  love about something you start finding out who they are really quickly and it's and it's a great
• 59:44
  opportunity for the two of you to have a meaningful small talk if that's not a contradiction in terms
• 59:51
  but I'm going to start teasing out from you what you love about what you do for living because
• 59:55
  it's going to tell me about who you are and then I'm also going to say you know what makes you
• 1:00:02
  want to talk to me that's going to tell me a lot about how you view the possibilities for the
• 1:00:08
  future relationship you start combining these things you find in very short period of time
• 1:00:14
  brand new person if you're listening you don't have happy years
• 1:00:20
  but you're actually listening to what they said they're going to tell you who they are pretty quickly
• 1:00:25
  one thing that I think could be a negative of technology especially with AI is that we leverage AI
• 1:00:34
  to do research and we leverage AI to understand things and we leverage AI because it's comfortable
• 1:00:39
  and it's easy and then you I've noticed it even myself with the podcast I use AI to do research
• 1:00:46
  on the guest one before I would listen to their past podcasts and get like a really good idea
• 1:00:50
  of who they are and I think that leveraging that AI that makes us lazy and it makes us not connect
• 1:00:58
  with the human in the best way possible and I'm really just curious is there is there a place or
• 1:01:05
  a strategy for technology AI in the negotiation process that doesn't remove the human component that
• 1:01:11
  obviously you know you're alluding to the fact that it's so valuable to really get a baseline on
• 1:01:16
  somebody like where does technology fit into it properly so it doesn't hurt you it helps you
• 1:01:21
  would chat GPT and the AI stuff when it started really hitting the business community hard about a
• 1:01:26
  year and a half ago maybe and I was confused by it and I sat through a panel and one of the guys
• 1:01:33
  on the panel said look at this is being a great intern that'll give you a good first pass at the
• 1:01:40
  information so I'm like oh okay there's going to be a lot of it that's going to be good but it's
• 1:01:46
  going to lack some insight but it's going to be a pretty good first draft assessment first pass
• 1:01:52
  at the information then you can use it and realize then you got to go back and read it again
• 1:02:00
  but it's it's it's not going to be all the way there but it's going to get you more than half
• 1:02:05
  way there so if you look at it as a great assistant a great intern and then you got to go in with
• 1:02:12
  your insight and your wisdom and refine it and then look for more or see something that makes
• 1:02:19
  you curious and you you've got to dig a little bit deeper into it if you look at it in that capacity
• 1:02:25
  then it's very helpful if you think it's going to do the whole job for you now flip side you've got
• 1:02:31
  a draft that's anywhere from 15 to 25 percent flawed just wrong and those kind of errors will sink you
• 1:02:41
  if you don't find them so it's how you put it in perspective very very smart okay um I want
• 1:02:49
  I want you to tell people where they can go to connect with you obviously we have uh we have
• 1:02:54
  the event is coming up we'll put that in the show notes um so tell people where they can connect
• 1:02:59
  with you just the socials website um and also what also you're working on now that they should be
• 1:03:05
  interested about anything like that well blacks one ltd dot com is a website b l a c k s w a and
• 1:03:13
  ltd dot com now if you're serious about putting in the effort and the time to become a better
• 1:03:22
  nidoe share if you want if you want to weigh the magic wand you know if you if you want to sit
• 1:03:28
  in a jacuzzi and so if you want to sit in a gym and get into condition without actually getting
• 1:03:33
  up out of the armchair now the blacks one website is for if you want to get in a gym
• 1:03:40
  we're going to do you any good if you just want to sit in a gym you're going to have to get up on
• 1:03:44
  a treadmill in the meantime uh my instagram at the FBI negotiator we've been putting a lot of a lot of
• 1:03:54
  short videos up there recently it really in the last seven or eight months is the first time I've
• 1:04:01
  been getting feedback from top tier negotiators saying like hey I love what's on your Instagram
• 1:04:07
  these days I'm checking that every day the videos are helping me a lot so that's those two references
• 1:04:15
  with context if you're there ain't no magic one just like there are top tier clients don't miss a day
• 1:04:26
  with this not a day and what they told me is like once you get in the gym you start missing days in a
• 1:04:33
  gym you're not as good a shake you gotta get in the gym you gotta do it you gotta put your days in
• 1:04:37
  and then your results are phenomenal that's when you get to the point where you're doing stuff that
• 1:04:42
  nobody else can do which is a really cool place to be the last thing I mean we went into a lot so
• 1:04:48
  anything else that I should have asked you that I didn't feel for you the floor is yours
• 1:04:52
  then I have one last question after that no I you know I like it a lot what wherever you are in
• 1:04:56
  negotiations if you actually want to get better if you're flipping burgers and McDonald's
• 1:05:03
  we have products for you we get tools we get low cost and no cost stuff to get you started and get
• 1:05:09
  you going if you're private equity investor investor and it's something that says all right so I'm
• 1:05:18
  as good as anybody of my class but I think I could be better then we got stuff for you too
• 1:05:26
  and by the way I think this is it's not a skill that only works in one industry it's not a skill
• 1:05:36
  that only works in one part of life is it's universal universally applicable it's any situation you
• 1:05:42
  go into ever it's a positive and benefit to you to understand how to negotiate how to understand
• 1:05:49
  people how to communicate that's just I mean there's really nothing you do in life that doesn't
• 1:05:54
  benefit from learning how to do this that's right last question I like to ask so you've had an
• 1:06:03
  incredible career you've gone through multiple seasons of your career and out of all the wisdom
• 1:06:09
  negotiation business otherwise you want to leave one lesson with your kids what would that
• 1:06:17
  lesson be what was the most important lesson that you want to pass down be collaborative
• 1:06:25
  which is not the same as cooperative collaborative is where you're talking about
• 1:06:31
  working with someone to get what you both need instead of giving in and then realize that
• 1:06:37
  nothing works all the time there's gonna be there's gonna be blobs there's gonna be mistakes
• 1:06:43
  things are gonna go sideways pick something that works more than anything else does and being
• 1:06:48
  genuinely collaborative will not make you invincible from all harm it's just gonna make your
• 1:06:57
  wins so much more in terms of percentages that the harm are is simply gonna be lessons that make
• 1:07:06
  you smarter versus things that destroy you