Latest / Beautifully Complex / 367: Systems that Work with the Brain, with Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.

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367: Systems that Work with the Brain, with Angela Kingdon, Ph.D. · Beautifully Complex

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Speaker 1: Do you know how many other problems I have in
0:03
Speaker 1: my life? I am fifteen years old. I'm going to
0:05
Speaker 1: eliminate not liking my outfit. I like my outfit every day.
0:09
Speaker 1: I'm comfortable in my outfit every day. Sometimes I wear
0:13
Speaker 1: it backwards with the bee in the back. Sometimes I
0:16
Speaker 1: wear it with a mini skirt. Like I have eliminated
0:21
Speaker 1: the problem of not liking my outfits by wearing the
0:24
Speaker 1: same outfit.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
0:30
Speaker 2: means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
0:34
Speaker 2: Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
0:39
Speaker 2: this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
0:42
Speaker 2: to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
0:47
Speaker 2: if you want more support, join our free community at
0:51
Speaker 2: hub dot beautifully complex dot life.
0:56
Speaker 3: Welcome back everyone. I am really thrilled and excited to
1:00
Speaker 3: have with me today Doctor Angela Kingdon to talk about ADHD, autism, ODHD,
1:09
Speaker 3: how all of these experiences sometimes intertwine, and how we
1:15
Speaker 3: can look at really systems that work with the neurodivergent
1:20
Speaker 3: brain instead of working against it. So Angela and welcome.
1:24
Speaker 3: Will you start by letting everybody know who you are
1:27
Speaker 3: and what you do?
1:29
Speaker 1: Sure, absolutely, thanks for having me here. First of all,
1:32
Speaker 1: longtime listener, first time caller. So I love this show.
1:36
Speaker 1: It's been in my rotation of amazingly helpful podcasts. I
1:43
Speaker 1: run a podcast network which is called the Autistic Culture
1:46
Speaker 1: Podcast Network, and I run the network really because podcasts
1:51
Speaker 1: saved my life. So about five years ago now I
1:55
Speaker 1: hit burnout. I actually had been diagnosed. So my dis
2:00
Speaker 1: story is the flip of everyone else's, I think. But
2:04
Speaker 1: I had a life that was weirdly and coincidentally perfectly
2:09
Speaker 1: set up for my neurodivergent quirks. And then I got diagnosed.
2:14
Speaker 1: And I was not somebody that has like traditionally female
2:19
Speaker 1: autism or like mask. I actually wasn't very good at
2:22
Speaker 1: masking at all, and that created other problems in my life.
2:26
Speaker 1: But then when I got diagnosed, I was sent to
2:31
Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy and I learned how to mask for
2:35
Speaker 1: the first time in my life. And it was the
2:37
Speaker 1: first time in my life. I had friends. It was
2:40
Speaker 1: the first time in my life I had a relationship.
2:42
Speaker 1: I went out, I had a super successful career, I
2:46
Speaker 1: weirdly became famous on the internet, and then I burned out.
2:51
Speaker 1: So I learned how to mask. CBT taught me how
2:54
Speaker 1: to mask, and then I got an a in it,
2:57
Speaker 1: so I didn't even know it was an option, and
2:59
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, this is how you play this game.
3:02
Speaker 1: And then I burned out absolutely spectacularly. And during my burnout,
3:08
Speaker 1: the only thing I could do was listen to podcasts,
3:12
Speaker 1: and that became my special interest. That became my lifeline.
3:15
Speaker 1: Before I was a reader and I lost my ability
3:18
Speaker 1: to read, I somehow couldn't listen to audio books. There
3:23
Speaker 1: was like grief associated with it somehow. But podcasts, which
3:28
Speaker 1: just felt like talking to a friend, Yeah, saved my life.
3:32
Speaker 1: And I came back and started a podcast, and then
3:35
Speaker 1: started two more, and then helped a bunch of people
3:38
Speaker 1: with their podcast and now we have I think thirty
3:41
Speaker 1: three podcasts that are either live or in various states
3:45
Speaker 1: of production. So yeah, so it's pretty exciting because I
3:49
Speaker 1: do think we need to hear from all different voice.
3:52
Speaker 1: We all have different experiences, you know, we all need
3:56
Speaker 1: different tools, and so having a variety of ages and
4:00
Speaker 1: life stages and experiences and chronic conditions and different types
4:05
Speaker 1: of kids that we're dealing with. Yeah, I think that is.
4:09
Speaker 1: If you find the podcast at the right time, it
4:12
Speaker 1: can just be really helpful. So hopefully we'll give some
4:15
Speaker 1: people some tips today.
4:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so your podcast network, if I understand all
4:20
Speaker 3: the podcasts are hosted by assistic individuals, is that correct?
4:25
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I would say most are probably AUDIHD
4:29
Speaker 1: or I like what you say, beautifully complex. We've got
4:33
Speaker 1: a little bit of everything. But yeah, it is based
4:38
Speaker 1: on the idea that while we have medical issues, we
4:42
Speaker 1: are not a medical issue. We are a culture.
4:46
Speaker 3: Love that just a neurotype, right, yeah, just an aerotype neus,
4:50
Speaker 3: a different operating system, just a completely different operating system, right.
4:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, stuck in stuck in this world. We're expected to
5:01
Speaker 1: operate like a PC and we're out here operating like
5:04
Speaker 1: a Unix system or something.
5:05
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I think that leads right into this conversation
5:08
Speaker 3: about systems too, Like this world is full of systems,
5:12
Speaker 3: societal systems, cultural systems, all of these different entities that
5:18
Speaker 3: we ask our kids, we ask adults to not just
5:22
Speaker 3: function in, but succeed in, right, we want everyone to
5:27
Speaker 3: succeed in these systems, and they don't work for everyone,
5:31
Speaker 3: and they weren't made for everyone. Do you want to
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Speaker 3: define when you talk about systems and systems that do
5:38
Speaker 3: work with a brain? What does that word mean to you?
5:41
Speaker 3: What are we really talking about there?
5:44
Speaker 1: Well, because we live in the world, there are systems
5:47
Speaker 1: that we have no control of, like the way you
5:49
Speaker 1: get a driver's license or the way you get a
5:51
Speaker 1: high school diploma, like there are certain systems I don't know.
5:56
Speaker 1: I guess we can vote, but we're probably not in
5:58
Speaker 1: our lifetime going to change the way the process to
6:03
Speaker 1: get a library book out works. If you don't like
6:06
Speaker 1: the fluorescent lights in the library, there's not a whole
6:10
Speaker 1: lot you're going to do to change the library. And
6:13
Speaker 1: so my focus is on what are the ways that
6:19
Speaker 1: we do control the way we operate that we can
6:23
Speaker 1: create for us. So, for instance, just what I mean
6:27
Speaker 1: by system might be I love to go to the library,
6:30
Speaker 1: which is true. I do not like the lights in
6:34
Speaker 1: the library and the hum of the lights in the library,
6:38
Speaker 1: And so when I go to a library, I might
6:42
Speaker 1: wear I have a pair of sunglasses that are just
6:44
Speaker 1: like lightly tinted, so I might wear my lightly tinted
6:49
Speaker 1: prescription glasses, and I would definitely wear my loop ear plugs.
6:53
Speaker 1: So my system this is like a little bit expensive.
6:57
Speaker 1: Not everybody could necessarily do this, but my system is
7:00
Speaker 1: I always keep a pair of loops in the car. Actually,
7:03
Speaker 1: the way that happened was I lost a pair and
7:04
Speaker 1: then I bought another pair, and then I had an
7:06
Speaker 1: extra pair. So I always keep, yeah, an extra pair
7:10
Speaker 1: of loops in the car. I always keep sunglasses in
7:12
Speaker 1: the car. I have like a little kit. I always
7:14
Speaker 1: keep like a stem toy, and I will have like
7:18
Speaker 1: a little kit of things that I have in my house,
7:21
Speaker 1: I have in my car, I have in my purse.
7:23
Speaker 1: And I know my process when I'm going into a
7:28
Speaker 1: place like a grocery store or the library or things
7:32
Speaker 1: like that is to be over prepared. I literally have
7:37
Speaker 1: such an inability to control my body temperature. Like that's
7:41
Speaker 1: just me, right, I know that about me. So I
7:44
Speaker 1: have three scarfs with me, I have a zip up sweatshirt,
7:49
Speaker 1: and then I'm always wearing one or two layers so
7:52
Speaker 1: I can take off clothes or put on clothes. I
7:54
Speaker 1: can wish that my body had the ability to self regulate,
7:58
Speaker 1: but it doesn't. I could wish that I never needed
8:01
Speaker 1: to leave my house and I do try and avoid
8:03
Speaker 1: leaving my house. I still can't regulate my body temperature
8:06
Speaker 1: in my house. But it's like, so I need to
8:08
Speaker 1: create a system or a way of operating that works
8:13
Speaker 1: this way one hundred percent of the time. That's going
8:16
Speaker 1: to make all the other systems I have no control
8:19
Speaker 1: of more manageable.
8:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, a way of operating.
8:23
Speaker 1: That's how I think of it. Yeah. And for me,
8:27
Speaker 1: because I am autistic, I find great relief and comfort
8:33
Speaker 1: creating new systems. So I'll think of something. I'll be like, God,
8:38
Speaker 1: I wish I had something earphones in every room. And
8:43
Speaker 1: then I will find the right container. I will find
8:46
Speaker 1: the right earphones, I will set up everything because I
8:49
Speaker 1: love building systems. But I also recognize, like that is
8:54
Speaker 1: not always a comforting word to everyone. My son is AUDIHD,
8:59
Speaker 1: and he feels like there's so many systems I have
9:02
Speaker 1: to comply with all day long. Yeah, do not give
9:06
Speaker 1: me one more system and I'll give you my little
9:08
Speaker 1: hack for that. The system is for him reduce the
9:12
Speaker 1: number of systems. That is a system m HM. So
9:16
Speaker 1: it's really identifying what works for you now, creating space
9:23
Speaker 1: for that to change, and having the process to accommodate
9:29
Speaker 1: yourself as much as possible. That's really it. So it's environmental,
9:34
Speaker 1: but it's also psychological, I think to be like I
9:37
Speaker 1: am allowed to not like the lights at the library,
9:41
Speaker 1: I'm also allowed to not complain about it, because complaining
9:44
Speaker 1: is also just regulating for me.
9:46
Speaker 3: Mm hmm yeah and those around you.
9:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah for sure. Yeah, especially the children's knowh my goodness,
9:54
Speaker 1: you see see it. Yeah, So as I accommodate myself,
9:59
Speaker 1: That's the other thing is, like I can watch my son,
10:03
Speaker 1: who would never want to call it a system, develop
10:06
Speaker 1: a system.
10:07
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
10:08
Speaker 1: So he had the most elaborate system for studying for
10:13
Speaker 1: his SATs, and he got like very close to a
10:17
Speaker 1: perfect score in his SATs, he got under a thousand.
10:21
Speaker 1: I think he got like eight sixty or something on
10:23
Speaker 1: his PSATs. And then he developed this elaborate system to
10:29
Speaker 1: like he just wanted to master it. It just became
10:31
Speaker 1: his like monotropic focus. But if I called it a system,
10:36
Speaker 1: oh my god, say that's the system is. Don't call
10:40
Speaker 1: it a system, mom, Why do you have to have
10:42
Speaker 1: a system for everything? Yeah, came uah.
10:45
Speaker 3: And that brings up a point that I learned through
10:48
Speaker 3: the years of my own parenting is like sometimes we
10:52
Speaker 3: just have to call things something different. Like if our
10:55
Speaker 3: kids are resistant, it isn't always the actual thing that
11:00
Speaker 3: are resisting. Sometimes it's the language and the packaging that
11:04
Speaker 3: we're putting it in that doesn't feel right for them. Yeah,
11:09
Speaker 3: So why don't we ask them to say what it is? Right? Like,
11:12
Speaker 3: why don't we ask them what's going to work for you?
11:16
Speaker 3: And what do you want to call it? Just being open?
11:21
Speaker 1: But you can see how that I can see how
11:24
Speaker 1: that certain words or terms would be dysregulating. Yeah, and
11:30
Speaker 1: so that is a really big part of it, is
11:34
Speaker 1: like what would make this easier for me? So, like
11:40
Speaker 1: I charge my phone with my phone has a USB
11:44
Speaker 1: C charger the new one, and my microphone also uses
11:49
Speaker 1: a USBC charger, and one of the things that drives
11:54
Speaker 1: me crazy or cables, And so I don't leave my
11:57
Speaker 1: microphone out, but I podcast a lot, as you could imagine,
12:01
Speaker 1: since it's my career. And so every time I pulled
12:05
Speaker 1: my microphone out of the drawer of cables, I would
12:08
Speaker 1: be as like untangling a necklace, Like I would be
12:12
Speaker 1: untangling this necklace and then I would be running late
12:15
Speaker 1: because I was untangling the necklace, and so I'd like
12:18
Speaker 1: try and calm myself down and like get into podcasting mode.
12:22
Speaker 1: And then I made like the simplest little change, which
12:26
Speaker 1: is I unplugged my phone and I use that same
12:29
Speaker 1: USBC to plug in instead. I don't have to use
12:33
Speaker 1: the cable that came with the microphone. I didn't just
12:36
Speaker 1: use any USB. And I know that's really small and
12:39
Speaker 1: to me when I call that a system, like I
12:41
Speaker 1: have a system for getting my microphone out, and I
12:44
Speaker 1: have simplified my system, Okay, or you could just call
12:48
Speaker 1: it I use the same cable.
12:50
Speaker 3: I mean, it's right.
12:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a little strategy. It's like a little tool,
12:57
Speaker 1: it's a little hack, it's whatever you want to call it.
12:59
Speaker 1: It's good. Yeah, how could you make your life easier?
13:02
Speaker 1: Because there's so many things you aren't You are not
13:04
Speaker 1: going to change the US tax code, right, somebody might,
13:07
Speaker 1: it won't be you, and it won't be today. Like,
13:10
Speaker 1: there's so many things you're going to have no control of.
13:13
Speaker 1: What can you tame? What beasts can you tame? Today?
13:18
Speaker 3: Yeah? Where is your influence? Lie? And we talk so
13:21
Speaker 3: much about that here with parents, Like when I'm coaching parents,
13:26
Speaker 3: we can worry about a whole lot of things, and
13:28
Speaker 3: we're going to we're parents. But if we can't influence
13:31
Speaker 3: those things we're worrying about, we're causing our self distress
13:35
Speaker 3: and the people around us distress, and nothing is changing.
13:38
Speaker 3: So how can we pivot to work on what we
13:41
Speaker 3: can work on? Right? What can we control? It's a
13:44
Speaker 3: out of work I've been doing with my own therapist too, because,
13:47
Speaker 3: as she said in our first our first conversation with
13:51
Speaker 3: each other, you have some control issues, like do I
13:57
Speaker 3: now you don't say? So I've learned to like think
14:01
Speaker 3: about when I'm feeling dysregularly because I don't have control,
14:05
Speaker 3: what thing can I do that gives me some control?
14:09
Speaker 3: And that can be in parenting, that can be personally right,
14:12
Speaker 3: it can be in a lot of ways, but that
14:14
Speaker 3: really does provide relief to our nervous system to find
14:18
Speaker 3: something that we can control when we feel like we
14:23
Speaker 3: need that and we don't have it.
14:27
Speaker 1: One of my kind of the premise underneath the autistic
14:31
Speaker 1: culture network is something that I call the ten pillars
14:34
Speaker 1: of autistic culture. And so I looked at autistic traits
14:40
Speaker 1: through a lens like so the guy who did the
14:43
Speaker 1: original research. His name is Garrett Hofstetter, And when you
14:48
Speaker 1: get sent overseas, either with your company or with the government,
14:52
Speaker 1: there's a Girt Hofstetter training in that country's customs and mannerism.
14:58
Speaker 1: So if you're going to South America and the parties
15:00
Speaker 1: at eight show up at nine. If you're going to
15:03
Speaker 1: a party in Germany and the parties at eight show
15:05
Speaker 1: up at seven thirty, what are all the different cultural
15:10
Speaker 1: differences that you need to know in order to be
15:13
Speaker 1: successful in business or diplomacy overseas. So I took that
15:16
Speaker 1: same framework and I applied it to autistic people and
15:21
Speaker 1: pillar number eight And I do think in many ways
15:24
Speaker 1: slightly differently, but this applies to ADHD people and then
15:28
Speaker 1: also slightly differently for like OCD. But pillar number eight
15:33
Speaker 1: I call predictably comforting. And the idea behind it is
15:38
Speaker 1: why we often eat the same foods and people are like,
15:42
Speaker 1: aren't you sick of those butter noodles? No, I am not.
15:46
Speaker 1: Or why we wear the same clothes. When Andy Warhol,
15:49
Speaker 1: who has autistic, died, they found fifty pairs of the
15:52
Speaker 1: same green underwear. When Stephen Sondheim died, who is also autistic,
15:58
Speaker 1: they found fifty boxes of black Wing pencils. If you
16:01
Speaker 1: want to know the best pencil in the world, it's
16:03
Speaker 1: a black Wing. They canceled it. Steven Sondheim had a
16:06
Speaker 1: melt down. He bought the whole factory, and then they
16:09
Speaker 1: brought it back very recently. They're really good. If you
16:12
Speaker 1: go to like museums, they'll often sell black Wing pencils.
16:16
Speaker 1: So we find something that is the best for us,
16:21
Speaker 1: and we're like, why would I get up every morning
16:24
Speaker 1: and put out a different pair of underwear. Some might
16:27
Speaker 1: be comfortable, some might not. If I could just get
16:30
Speaker 1: twenty of the exact same underwear and eliminate that. That's
16:34
Speaker 1: one last thing. So I remember, weirdly having like shame
16:40
Speaker 1: about that. I think there was I was really really
16:43
Speaker 1: into I'm gonna date myself. But do you remember the
16:47
Speaker 1: They were the sweaters from the Limited Express. They were
16:51
Speaker 1: like these V neck sweaters with like a wide cable.
16:55
Speaker 1: And I loved the sweater. And I remember having this
16:59
Speaker 1: thought in high school, I could wear this sweater every day,
17:03
Speaker 1: like this sweater with leggings, this sweater with a belt
17:07
Speaker 1: around it. I'll get some that are bigger than others.
17:11
Speaker 1: And I literally bought every single color. It's a limited
17:15
Speaker 1: express of this sweater and it was all I wore.
17:17
Speaker 1: I think this was sophomore year of high school or something,
17:20
Speaker 1: and like people made fun of me. They were like,
17:24
Speaker 1: oh my, Like literally, is that the only thing you wear?
17:26
Speaker 1: And the answer is yes, it is. Do you know
17:29
Speaker 1: how many other problems I have in my life? I
17:32
Speaker 1: am fifteen years old. I'm gonna eliminate not liking my outfit? Yeah,
17:36
Speaker 1: I like my outfit every day. I'm comfortable in my
17:39
Speaker 1: outfit every day. Sometimes I wear it backwards with the
17:43
Speaker 1: bee in the back. Sometimes I wear it with a
17:46
Speaker 1: mini skirt. Like I have eliminated the problem of not
17:51
Speaker 1: liking my outfits by wearing the same outfit.
17:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I do the same thing sometimes if I'm like, ooh,
17:58
Speaker 3: I feel like I look good in this? Like I
18:00
Speaker 3: feel good in this? Is there another color? Can I
18:03
Speaker 3: have to? Right? Like? Why not?
18:07
Speaker 1: And then my question is why do we feel like
18:10
Speaker 1: guilt and shame about this? And I'm not saying everyone
18:14
Speaker 1: has to do it, Like if you get joy from
18:16
Speaker 1: wearing a different thing every day, or fashion is your
18:19
Speaker 1: you know interest, or like go crazy? Yeah, but my
18:24
Speaker 1: mission of like finding systems that work with you is
18:29
Speaker 1: freeing you from the pressure to do things you don't
18:33
Speaker 1: have to do other people's wigh their way. Like the
18:37
Speaker 1: bank has a way for you to get a bank
18:38
Speaker 1: account that you're not going to change, right, But what
18:41
Speaker 1: you wear when you go to the bank, you're in
18:44
Speaker 1: control of that.
18:45
Speaker 3: Whyly up to you?
18:46
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, so why give up that autonomy? I guess
18:50
Speaker 1: it's like I'm not a PDA or. But maybe this
18:54
Speaker 1: is why I'm not a PDA or, because I'm so
18:57
Speaker 1: militant about identifying where do I have control and then
19:02
Speaker 1: taking it all the way. So then I'm not mad
19:05
Speaker 1: when somebody Sometimes I'm mad, but I'm not as mad
19:09
Speaker 1: when somebody makes me follow a process that I might
19:13
Speaker 1: not want because I'm not imposing it on myself.
19:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about parenting and how
19:33
Speaker 3: we help our kids figure out what systems work for them,
19:37
Speaker 3: because as parents, we have an idea of what's going
19:41
Speaker 3: to work, what works for us maybe, and we want
19:45
Speaker 3: to impose that right. Oh, well, you know, a notebook
19:48
Speaker 3: for every class worked for me. Is I'm going to
19:50
Speaker 3: get a notebook for every class for you? Or the
19:53
Speaker 3: teacher says this is the stuff you need for each class,
19:58
Speaker 3: and so that's what we're going to do, which I
20:01
Speaker 3: learned early on. I could challenge that I could do
20:05
Speaker 3: it different. It was okay, right.
20:08
Speaker 1: Wild wild.
20:10
Speaker 3: How do we lean into their way and not ours
20:15
Speaker 3: or what somebody else is trying to impose. How do
20:19
Speaker 3: we figure that out?
20:21
Speaker 1: It's such a great question, and that is so much
20:23
Speaker 1: a part of the journey of parenting, I guess, like
20:28
Speaker 1: especially if we're thinking about older kid like puberty, Like
20:33
Speaker 1: up until twenty five, I heard this thing once as
20:37
Speaker 1: my kid was going into high school that really guided
20:40
Speaker 1: that journey for me, which was when your kid is
20:44
Speaker 1: a baby, or even when you're pregnant, and as they're
20:46
Speaker 1: growing up, you were their son. Their whole world revolves
20:52
Speaker 1: around you. Like if you're going to the bank, they
20:55
Speaker 1: go to the bank. If you're going to a haircut,
20:57
Speaker 1: they go to a haircut. If you want a purple
20:59
Speaker 1: baby carrier, they get a purple baby carrier, right, And
21:03
Speaker 1: as they transition through puberty, you become their moon. You
21:08
Speaker 1: light them in the dark. And so that was the
21:13
Speaker 1: shift that for me really helped so earlier on when
21:17
Speaker 1: they're little, I think it was very obvious to me like,
21:21
Speaker 1: we're gonna do this my way. Like I'm excited about systems,
21:24
Speaker 1: so we'll have lots of them. I'm gonna color code
21:26
Speaker 1: your toys. I'm gonna I had all those Ikea Klyx,
21:31
Speaker 1: you know, the big squares, Like the whole room was
21:34
Speaker 1: the squares. I have labels. I had a little key touch.
21:37
Speaker 1: I labeled everything me too. This did not work for
21:41
Speaker 1: my ADHD child, but it never even occurred to me
21:45
Speaker 1: because I thought it was my room. Like when the
21:48
Speaker 1: baby was inside me, he was mine right then he
21:51
Speaker 1: came out and I'm doing everything and he's mine. But
21:55
Speaker 1: there's a day where he's his and he's not mine,
21:58
Speaker 1: and they don't tell you, like they don't announce it right.
22:02
Speaker 1: And so I think that transition, that Sun to Moon
22:06
Speaker 1: parenting transition. I think when they're little and your systems
22:12
Speaker 1: are yours and you have to manage the day, and
22:15
Speaker 1: you try and impose those systems at some point when
22:19
Speaker 1: you notice they're not working. I wish I caught that
22:23
Speaker 1: sooner because I didn't create any space to even see
22:27
Speaker 1: my kid's way. Yeah, so now I can see it now,
22:31
Speaker 1: I can see, like I was excited about all the
22:33
Speaker 1: klyx cubes. But the reason why things weren't getting put
22:37
Speaker 1: away with the labels was because that's not how he
22:40
Speaker 1: would organize. It wasn't exciting. When I saw everything put away,
22:43
Speaker 1: it looked really pretty to me. But now my child
22:48
Speaker 1: has that form of organization, which I need to like
22:52
Speaker 1: respect because it really is. He's quite organized. He has
22:56
Speaker 1: to see everything right, So you know that strategy of
23:00
Speaker 1: like taking the doors off the cabinets, that's not my strategy,
23:05
Speaker 1: but that is definitely his strategy. And so how do
23:10
Speaker 1: you like? I don't know why I want to use
23:12
Speaker 1: the word grief so much. Parenting is about grief for me,
23:15
Speaker 1: but like it is because, like my systems are so good,
23:20
Speaker 1: why didn't I have the kid that was so excited?
23:23
Speaker 1: Like I alphabetize and I color code and I match
23:27
Speaker 1: my size. I can line up anything, and like my
23:32
Speaker 1: child needs, Like luckily he had a really big room,
23:36
Speaker 1: which is great. It just it was kind of a weird, long,
23:39
Speaker 1: skinny room, but it was really big. And now I
23:41
Speaker 1: realize what I should have had are multiple surfaces at
23:45
Speaker 1: different heights where he could leave everything out. I wanted
23:50
Speaker 1: to put everything away, and it made him so disregulated.
23:55
Speaker 1: Because then he didn't have his toys. So as I
24:00
Speaker 1: that piece of that Sun Moon advice, I wish I
24:02
Speaker 1: could remember her name. She's a poet that helps when
24:05
Speaker 1: your kid is going to college. But I just found
24:07
Speaker 1: her on Facebook and she was amazing. And as I
24:10
Speaker 1: found that, I realized that I needed to look for
24:15
Speaker 1: where he had systems that I might not have been honoring.
24:20
Speaker 1: Like the the word that came up. Now this is
24:23
Speaker 1: partly because I have a son, maybe, but the word
24:26
Speaker 1: that came up was that he was feeling disrespected. And
24:31
Speaker 1: I now think he was right because I thought his system.
24:34
Speaker 1: Your system is you're going to have two piles of
24:36
Speaker 1: clothes on the floor that look the same to me,
24:39
Speaker 1: and you're gonna know one pile is dirty and one
24:42
Speaker 1: pile is clean. That's the system. I bought very nice hangers.
24:46
Speaker 1: They're color coded, and I wasn't honor. I was like
24:52
Speaker 1: very disrespectful, so I couldn't see them as systems. So
24:56
Speaker 1: that's like the thing I would say now, and I've
24:59
Speaker 1: gotten better at it. He's a he's a college junior now,
25:03
Speaker 1: so it's easier because he doesn't live with me, so
25:06
Speaker 1: the mess isn't there. But because there are like, obviously
25:09
Speaker 1: they live in your house, they have to follow your rules,
25:11
Speaker 1: but maybe they do have a system and you just
25:15
Speaker 1: need to look harder or ask or ask. I know,
25:19
Speaker 1: I love your idea to ask it, just to ask.
25:22
Speaker 1: I don't know if that because I know his answer
25:25
Speaker 1: to everything, and I don't know if this is a
25:27
Speaker 1: PDA or thing, but literally anything. The answer was I
25:31
Speaker 1: don't know with an eye roll, so I think I
25:34
Speaker 1: can do it. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, So that
25:39
Speaker 1: wasn't helpful. I like that you're saying ask. Maybe if
25:42
Speaker 1: I asked earlier because maybe I don't know, meant you're
25:47
Speaker 1: not gonna listen to me anyway, So I'm not going
25:49
Speaker 1: to spend cycles on this.
25:51
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm hm.
25:53
Speaker 1: But like, to my credit, I just didn't see it.
25:55
Speaker 1: I didn't see it. I was like, but my way
25:58
Speaker 1: is so good.
25:59
Speaker 3: And we're taught that there are specific ways to do things,
26:03
Speaker 3: like culturally, we're taught that you need to put your
26:06
Speaker 3: stuff away that we don't want to see clutter. Now
26:10
Speaker 3: I'm like, yo, if everything isn't like I even have
26:14
Speaker 3: this symmetrical need that is mind blowing, Like I can't
26:19
Speaker 3: get one hand wet and not get the other hand
26:22
Speaker 3: wet and so like I need things so organized and
26:28
Speaker 3: put away. But I don't have that kid, and I
26:32
Speaker 3: don't have anyone in my household. Actually that's like that
26:35
Speaker 3: but me, And so it's very hard to shift this need.
26:41
Speaker 3: You know, where do we draw the line between each
26:43
Speaker 3: person's needs. My nervous system needs it to be all
26:47
Speaker 3: put away. Their nervous system needs it to be in
26:50
Speaker 3: the way that works for them, right, And so who
26:53
Speaker 3: sort of wins in those situations? And I think a
26:57
Speaker 3: lot of times it needs to be our kids because
27:00
Speaker 3: are struggling and we need to help them with that struggle.
27:04
Speaker 3: We need to help them figure out their systems or
27:08
Speaker 3: whatever they're going to call them so they can be successful.
27:12
Speaker 1: Right, I think the because what like in theory, we're
27:17
Speaker 1: older than them, and so I think the growth opportunity.
27:22
Speaker 1: And I have had some moments of like great joy
27:28
Speaker 1: in the discovery is being curious about maybe, as crazy
27:36
Speaker 1: as it sounds, maybe this way could work for me. Right, So,
27:41
Speaker 1: like maybe throwing my clothes on the floor could work.
27:46
Speaker 1: Like that sounds crazy, like it literally is dysregulating, Like
27:50
Speaker 1: it's like so crazy making But if I can shift
27:53
Speaker 1: my thinking into curiosity and be like, but what if
27:58
Speaker 1: I just embrace that possibility. It doesn't mean I'm gonna
28:03
Speaker 1: do it, But can I, like walk a mile in
28:06
Speaker 1: somebody else? Can I inhabit? Who would I be if
28:09
Speaker 1: that was comforting? And then obviously, if your pile is
28:14
Speaker 1: in my living room, now I'm gonna draw a boundary, right,
28:18
Speaker 1: But if it's in your room, maybe I don't have
28:21
Speaker 1: to say clean up your room, Like, maybe I don't
28:24
Speaker 1: the glasses. All of my glasses left my kitchen and
28:28
Speaker 1: we're in my child's room. How could there be that
28:30
Speaker 1: many drinking glasses? I don't know. Yeah, And so for me,
28:36
Speaker 1: the choice I made. This is not every parent's choice,
28:39
Speaker 1: but for me, I was like, ah, I would rather
28:41
Speaker 1: go in the room and grab the glasses and bring
28:45
Speaker 1: him to the kitchen myself. I can see the argument
28:48
Speaker 1: many ways, but I was like, I don't want to
28:52
Speaker 1: have this fight. Someday he'll have his own house and
28:54
Speaker 1: if he wants to have glasses in his room he can.
28:57
Speaker 1: I don't want glasses in his room because then and
29:00
Speaker 1: I don't have anything to drink out of, right, So
29:03
Speaker 1: for me, I'm getting glasses. For me, that's kind of
29:08
Speaker 1: how I shifted is like, I guess I'm supposed to
29:12
Speaker 1: teach him right from wrong and put your glasses away,
29:15
Speaker 1: but ultimately, what do I care. I'm not going to
29:17
Speaker 1: live with him when he's an adult.
29:18
Speaker 3: I hope.
29:19
Speaker 1: So that's, you know, that's kind of where I guess.
29:23
Speaker 1: It's like a pick your battles thing totally. But one
29:27
Speaker 1: of the great moments of joy I wanted to share
29:29
Speaker 1: is the rule for me. I don't know where I
29:32
Speaker 1: learned this, I'm sure I'm right though, was that when
29:35
Speaker 1: you go to on vacation, you must maximize the money
29:39
Speaker 1: you have spent so you have paid for flights and hotel.
29:43
Speaker 1: You will get up early, you will do all the
29:45
Speaker 1: activities from sunrise until you know dusk, but long after dark,
29:53
Speaker 1: and you will fill the day with four to eight activities.
29:55
Speaker 1: Like I was like, we're doing this. Then this I
29:58
Speaker 1: also like to write and color code it and include pictures,
30:02
Speaker 1: And before we would go on trips, i'd make a
30:04
Speaker 1: little book because once I read that, like, you get
30:08
Speaker 1: all the joy out of planning a trip that you
30:12
Speaker 1: do from actually having it. So I am an amazing
30:16
Speaker 1: trip planner. And then one day I don't know if
30:20
Speaker 1: I asked him or if he just told me. But
30:22
Speaker 1: it was in the era when I was practicing respect
30:26
Speaker 1: and just like this curiosity and like maybe his way
30:31
Speaker 1: is fine. I Oh, this was one of the ways
30:33
Speaker 1: I tricked my mind. I kept saying to myself, if
30:36
Speaker 1: he was thirty and had his own house, would this
30:38
Speaker 1: be okay? So that was like I just kept asking
30:42
Speaker 1: myself that he was not thirty, by the way, and
30:44
Speaker 1: I was paying all the bills, but I just kept
30:46
Speaker 1: like like do it. So anyway, we planned a trip
30:51
Speaker 1: that was so expensive to the Amalfi Coast in Italy,
30:56
Speaker 1: and I think it was my fiftieth birthday trip and
31:01
Speaker 1: I had packed it to the gills and I showed
31:03
Speaker 1: it to him and he was like, I really don't
31:07
Speaker 1: want to do more than one thing a day, and
31:10
Speaker 1: I was like, I will never get my money's work. Also,
31:14
Speaker 1: it's my fiftieth birthday. Like literally we landed at the
31:19
Speaker 1: airport after and all later and I was like at
31:21
Speaker 1: the coliseum like fighting with the lion, throwing the Christians
31:25
Speaker 1: to the lions. Like I was like, let's go anyway
31:28
Speaker 1: in Rome. I kept my schedule, but once we got
31:31
Speaker 1: down to the Amalfi Coast. I cleared everything off the schedule,
31:35
Speaker 1: which is his preferred way to travel. So much serendipity
31:40
Speaker 1: happened so much, just like hang time and great conversations
31:44
Speaker 1: where we weren't talking about the logistics of getting to
31:47
Speaker 1: the next activity, yeah, stressing. We met random people. My
31:53
Speaker 1: child does not speak Italian, but he just spontaneously decided
31:58
Speaker 1: he could speak Italian, like he can't, but he did.
32:02
Speaker 1: I don't know how to explain this, but he would
32:03
Speaker 1: just meet people and start saying words in Italian and
32:09
Speaker 1: I was like, but you don't speak Italian. So he
32:11
Speaker 1: was just like wanted to connect so much that he
32:15
Speaker 1: sort of discovered the Italian language. Like, we met so
32:19
Speaker 1: many strangers that we never would have met, and it
32:24
Speaker 1: was not my way, Like I literally thought it was
32:27
Speaker 1: the wrong way to do a vacation. And now I
32:31
Speaker 1: have a trip with my daughter, my neurotypical daughter, to
32:35
Speaker 1: Venice next week, and I planned everything to the letter,
32:40
Speaker 1: and I slightly heard something in her voice. She's really
32:43
Speaker 1: stressed out about some things in her life. And I
32:46
Speaker 1: was like, do you just want to hang out by
32:48
Speaker 1: the pool at the hotel? Like we're going to Venice?
32:51
Speaker 1: We should do all the things. In Venice, I canceled
32:55
Speaker 1: everything except for a massage at the hotel. Now that
32:58
Speaker 1: doesn't mean we won't do anything. It just means by
33:03
Speaker 1: having that little bit of curiosity that I like, have
33:08
Speaker 1: opened something new in me over fifty Yeah, because I
33:12
Speaker 1: was willing to consider that, just because it seemed right
33:16
Speaker 1: to me. There could be another thing equally right.
33:21
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, there's more than one way to do things.
33:25
Speaker 3: There's more in one way. Yeah.
33:27
Speaker 1: Crazy.
33:27
Speaker 3: Oh, we've had the same vacation battles too, Like really,
33:32
Speaker 3: you know, I'm like, we got to see everything. We're
33:34
Speaker 3: going to this place, We got it. We got to
33:36
Speaker 3: do all the things. We got to see all the things.
33:38
Speaker 3: And I'll tell you, the best vacation we ever had
33:42
Speaker 3: was when we went to an island and we were
33:44
Speaker 3: actually in a tent, which none of us liked, but
33:48
Speaker 3: the beach was amazing and there was no plan. Every
33:51
Speaker 3: day we woke up, what do you want to do?
33:54
Speaker 3: And we just enjoyed where we were and like the
33:58
Speaker 3: tent part was horrendous, but still it's everybody's favorite because wow,
34:05
Speaker 3: we were just you know, going with what was happening.
34:09
Speaker 3: My kid when he was young His happy place was
34:12
Speaker 3: definitely the beach. She could just be energetic and free
34:17
Speaker 3: and nobody was going to correct him and tell him
34:19
Speaker 3: to calm down and all the things, you know, and
34:22
Speaker 3: it was just, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of wisdom
34:26
Speaker 3: in really getting curious and noticing what our kids are
34:32
Speaker 3: sort of signaling. Maybe they can't tell us what system
34:35
Speaker 3: will work. Maybe they can't tell us what they want
34:37
Speaker 3: to do and don't want to do, but they are clues.
34:41
Speaker 3: There are always clues.
34:43
Speaker 1: Sophia kept saying, like I would send her like does
34:47
Speaker 1: this cooking class look good? Do you want to go
34:49
Speaker 1: to the blowing glass exposition? Like do you want to
34:53
Speaker 1: do this? Whatever I sent, she's like very positive, and
34:57
Speaker 1: she's like that looks great. That looks great. And then
34:59
Speaker 1: every time I said what do you want to do?
35:02
Speaker 1: She kept saying all I care about is my tan
35:06
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, Venice isn't really you know,
35:09
Speaker 1: like that's not Venice isn't like famous for tanning, Like
35:13
Speaker 1: we're not going to the Greek aisles, like it's famous
35:17
Speaker 1: for art. We're going to see art, Like let's get
35:20
Speaker 1: on board cooking art dinners. And then I was like
35:24
Speaker 1: why not we could literally go to Venice and sit
35:27
Speaker 1: by a pool and the world will not end.
35:29
Speaker 3: Yep.
35:30
Speaker 1: This is very hard for my brain because the art.
35:32
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but what I really want is for her
35:35
Speaker 1: to relax and open up and so yeah, so I
35:39
Speaker 1: think that's it, right. It's like it's much more comfortable
35:42
Speaker 1: to me to be heavily scheduled. But my other goal
35:46
Speaker 1: is to connect with my child on a deep level.
35:49
Speaker 3: Yep.
35:49
Speaker 1: And so I'm like, oh, my best way of connecting
35:52
Speaker 1: and really hearing what's going on is sitting by the pool.
35:56
Speaker 1: Which sitting by the pool with the view of Venice not.
35:59
Speaker 3: The worst thing.
36:00
Speaker 1: It's a rooftop pool in an island off the coast
36:04
Speaker 1: of Venice. Yeah, it's gonna be fine. So yeah, I
36:09
Speaker 1: think that's it. I think it's like curiosity about what
36:12
Speaker 1: we need, curiosity about what our kids are communicating, and
36:18
Speaker 1: then the like healthy boundaries like I obviously wouldn't do
36:22
Speaker 1: that if I thought it was going to be harmful
36:25
Speaker 1: to me or not meet my goals. But but I
36:29
Speaker 1: can loose it, like I am not chill, I have
36:32
Speaker 1: I have like no chill, But I can loosen up
36:36
Speaker 1: a little because it meets another goal. And I think
36:40
Speaker 1: that's part of the journey. And if you're listening to
36:44
Speaker 1: this and you're not there and you really want to
36:45
Speaker 1: organize your kids room, like, that's fine too, because you've
36:51
Speaker 1: got to take care of yourself, like oxygen over your
36:53
Speaker 1: own nose of mouth first. So whatever is going to
36:57
Speaker 1: help you get to the next day sometimes when you
37:00
Speaker 1: got it. I had two that were they're Irish twins,
37:03
Speaker 1: so they're only six, they're like three hundred and sixty
37:07
Speaker 1: days apart, three hundred and fifty nine days apart. So
37:11
Speaker 1: I had two littles and we had to sometimes just
37:14
Speaker 1: make it to the next hour, never mind the next day.
37:17
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it has to be about both. It has
37:21
Speaker 3: to be about us too, not just our kids, because
37:24
Speaker 3: how we feel actually impacts how they feel and how
37:28
Speaker 3: they're doing too. Yeah, exactly, any final words of wisdom,
37:34
Speaker 3: anything you want to leave the parents, the educators, the
37:38
Speaker 3: adults who are listening with.
37:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's that flexibility that not only are
37:48
Speaker 1: your kids going to change as they grow up or
37:52
Speaker 1: you know, your classroom dynamics will change as you get
37:55
Speaker 1: different combinations of kids, but your needs will change, and
38:00
Speaker 1: so building system This is like my greatest hack in
38:04
Speaker 1: life into every system I build is iteration. So the
38:12
Speaker 1: way this system works is the system gets reviewed depending
38:16
Speaker 1: on what it is, but gets reviewed once a year,
38:18
Speaker 1: once a month, once every three months. That is actually
38:21
Speaker 1: built into it. So for instance, with our podcast network,
38:25
Speaker 1: just as an example, all my creators are neurodivergent. When
38:29
Speaker 1: most people think of a podcast, they think it's a
38:34
Speaker 1: show I do every week forever, or that plays every
38:37
Speaker 1: week even if I record it in batches. The way
38:41
Speaker 1: we do our shows is we do seasons. So we
38:45
Speaker 1: do four seasons a year, winter falls, summer, spring. Each
38:49
Speaker 1: season you can have up to twelve podcasts, so you
38:53
Speaker 1: can have anywhere from zero to twelve. If you do
38:56
Speaker 1: four seasons of twelve podcasts, you have a year long podcast.
39:00
Speaker 1: But every three months they have to resign a contract.
39:04
Speaker 1: So we have like a master services agreement, and then
39:07
Speaker 1: they get just an update that says, how many shows
39:10
Speaker 1: do you want to do this quarter? Zero to twelve
39:14
Speaker 1: and you pick a number and there's a dead lane
39:17
Speaker 1: that there due buy. And if you want to take
39:19
Speaker 1: the summer off because you have kids, you could just
39:22
Speaker 1: take the summer off and you don't have to quit
39:24
Speaker 1: if you want to take the summer off because you
39:25
Speaker 1: have knee surgery, that's fine. If you're super free because
39:30
Speaker 1: you just lost your job and you want to make
39:31
Speaker 1: twelve episodes and use it to start your own company,
39:36
Speaker 1: you could do that. But built into the structure of
39:40
Speaker 1: our company is that everyone rethinks what they're doing every
39:44
Speaker 1: three months. Yeah, and so how can you build in
39:49
Speaker 1: that The rule is that everything changes? Yeah, because that
39:53
Speaker 1: is the rule. That's the rule. Surprise.
39:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, that flexibility is important, but also just reevaluating, like
40:02
Speaker 3: is this still working? Is this not working? Giving our
40:05
Speaker 3: kids a chance every so often to have some input.
40:09
Speaker 1: Well, like schools. So I think a lot of us,
40:13
Speaker 1: you know, depending on you know, what state you live
40:16
Speaker 1: in or country or whatever. But you know, your kids
40:19
Speaker 1: going to a different high school in most cases, a
40:21
Speaker 1: different junior higher middle school, a different elementary school. But
40:24
Speaker 1: did you know you could reevaluate more often than that,
40:29
Speaker 1: Like if the school isn't we're now, maybe not the
40:31
Speaker 1: middle of the school year because that's sort of chaotic
40:33
Speaker 1: and hard on everyone's commutes and whatever. But if you
40:36
Speaker 1: didn't have a good school experience last year, you can
40:40
Speaker 1: pick a different school this year. People do that, Yeah,
40:44
Speaker 1: and you might not know that because all of your
40:47
Speaker 1: kids went to Deal Middle school. But this one doesn't
40:51
Speaker 1: have to.
40:51
Speaker 3: Mm hm, things can be different and different is good? Yeah, yeah,
40:57
Speaker 3: yeah yeah, Angela. Will you tell you abouty where they
40:59
Speaker 3: can find you online? I'm going to link it up
41:01
Speaker 3: in the shows as well, but let's point them in
41:04
Speaker 3: the right direction.
41:05
Speaker 1: Excellent. Yes, So the best place to find me is
41:08
Speaker 1: at Autistic Culture podcast Network dot com Autistic Culturepodcastnetwork dot
41:17
Speaker 1: com and that has all the shows and also a
41:22
Speaker 1: link to my personal page, which is Angela Kingdon dot
41:25
Speaker 1: com if you just want to find me perfect.
41:27
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, thank you for being here. It
41:29
Speaker 3: was lovely to chat with you. I had a good
41:31
Speaker 3: time me too.
41:32
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me Penny Us.
41:34
Speaker 3: I'll see everybody next time. Take good care, I see you.
41:40
Speaker 2: You're doing hard and meaningful work and you don't have
41:43
Speaker 2: to do it alone. If you found this episode helpful,
41:46
Speaker 2: share it with someone who needs it and leave a
41:49
Speaker 2: quick review so others can find this support too. When
41:52
Speaker 2: you're ready for next steps, the Regulated Kids Project is
41:56
Speaker 2: here with the tools, coaching, and community to help you
42:00
Speaker 2: raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get more info at
42:04
Speaker 2: Regulated Kids dot com