Latest / The MOOD Podcast / Why Photographer Ridwan Didot Asks Every Artist "What's Wrong With You?", E120

Transcript

Why Photographer Ridwan Didot Asks Every Artist "What's Wrong With You?", E120 · The MOOD Podcast

• 0:00
  Matt: If you want to make photographs that are unmistakably yours, work that lasts, you've probably run into the same wall I have before.
• 0:09
  Matt: You copy the photographers you admire, you nail the technique, and somehow the picture still isn't quite yours.
• 0:16
  Matt: While someone who maybe barely knows what a lens is takes what is an ordinary photo, it seems, and it stops you cold.
• 0:23
  Matt: Well, in this conversation, my guest and I get into why a photograph that still works in maybe 50 years beats one that could just look good today.
• 0:32
  Matt: Why copying anyone, even yourself, is impossible.
• 0:35
  Matt: And the one question he asks every artist that most photographers could spend their whole careers avoiding.
• 0:42
  Matt: This is the Mood Podcast, and I'm Matt Jacob, and this is the show that helps emerging photographers like yourself find their voice so that you can build a cohesive body of work, articulate what it's really about, and get it in front of the right people.
• 0:59
  Matt: My guest this week is Ridwan D Dot.
• 1:03
  Matt: Ridwan is a wedding photographer from Indonesia who came up through the country's most serious documentary tradition.
• 1:11
  Matt: He runs a studio called Native Visual, and he shoots commercial work with the eye and the patience of a documentarian.
• 1:20
  Matt: In the conversation, we get into whether there's such a thing as photography that's art and photography that isn't, and where that line might actually sit, why the love and care you put into a frame shows up in the final image, and why its absence shows up just as clearly, why copying the photographers you admire never usually works, no matter how closely you study them, and how to stop chasing approval long enough to make work that's genuinely yours.
• 1:51
  Matt: Stay to the end because Ridwan closes with the one question he asks every artist he meets.
• 1:59
  Matt: It's the question that a lot of us photographers spend their whole careers avoiding or pretending doesn't exist.
• 2:06
  Matt: Enjoy.
• 2:08
  Matt: Read one.
• 2:16
  Matt: Hey, how are you, mate?
• 2:18
  Matt: Good, mate.
• 2:18
  Matt: How are you?
• 2:19
  Matt: I'm good.
• 2:19
  Matt: Thank you.
• 2:20
  Matt: Welcome to the show.
• 2:20
  Matt: Finally.
• 2:21
  Matt: Finally, we get you on um in the studio, which is even better.
• 2:25
  Ridwan: Exactly.
• 2:26
  Matt: Give us um a bit of an overview of your background and where photography fits into your history, your upbringing, and how it got you to where you are today.
• 2:37
  Ridwan: Okay, uh, me and photography.
• 2:39
  Ridwan: Uh yeah, I'm a photographer and I know in camera since I was a kid.
• 2:43
  Ridwan: Because of my mother influenced me, I guess.
• 2:45
  Ridwan: Uh I'm the oldest son, their first son at the moment.
• 2:49
  Ridwan: And uh my mom used to documenting me when I was a kid.
• 2:53
  Ridwan: So uh later on I'm being the uh the son when we went to the holiday.
• 3:00
  Ridwan: I'm always holding the camera and taking picture of everything.
• 3:04
  Ridwan: And I realized since I was uh in junior high school, I need to move to other city.
• 3:10
  Ridwan: Uh I'm taking pictures of my friends in the classes.
• 3:14
  Ridwan: I still get the picture till today.
• 3:15
  Matt: Really?
• 3:16
  Ridwan: And yeah.
• 3:16
  Ridwan: Film and yes, film.
• 3:18
  Ridwan: With point and shoot back in the days.
• 3:22
  Ridwan: And later on, I continued my life, of course.
• 3:27
  Ridwan: And after in college, in the first year, I get interested with the big camera stuff, how it looks at the beginning.
• 3:35
  Ridwan: Because I met one of the guys, my now is my best friend.
• 3:39
  Ridwan: Uh we know each other eight years ago, and he holding one alt-Canon camera, it's digital.
• 3:45
  Ridwan: Since that day, I was really interested from the physical of the the looks of the camera.
• 3:51
  Ridwan: And yeah.
• 3:52
  Ridwan: Uh then I bought my on camera.
• 3:56
  Ridwan: It's uh my first camera is Olympus uh E500, I guess.
• 4:01
  Ridwan: And it's very cheap cameras, and I got two lenses when I bought it.
• 4:06
  Ridwan: But apparently on that time I wasn't really enjoying the quality because it's four-third blah blind stuff.
• 4:11
  Ridwan: Then I changed to Canon.
• 4:13
  Ridwan: Yeah.
• 4:14
  Ridwan: Anyway, uh I start loving the journey of photography because at some point I'm starting to change my self as a human.
• 4:26
  Ridwan: And uh because of photography, or you would change it anyway?
• 4:30
  Ridwan: I think because of photography.
• 4:32
  Ridwan: Uh in what way?
• 4:33
  Ridwan: So I live in West Sumatra back then.
• 4:37
  Ridwan: And because of the photography, there's so many times me and my friends went to the village or went to the landscape to take a picture, and during those moments we met all ma many people, then start to know how to react to those people within a good way to good a to get a good result of pictures anyway.
• 4:58
  Ridwan: So it's kinda humbled me.
• 5:00
  Ridwan: And maybe uh it's teaching how to live as a human and see many variants of level of human at some point.
• 5:10
  Ridwan: So yeah.
• 5:12
  Ridwan: And what what else?
• 5:15
  Ridwan: And uh Yeah, it's also that's the thing I love about photography is uh it's giving me kind of an access, somehow giving an access to meet that some people they if I'm not a photographer, maybe I couldn't meet them.
• 5:31
  Ridwan: Or even with some experience.
• 5:34
  Ridwan: Maybe if I'm not a photographer, I'm I don't have this kind of experience or those experiences.
• 5:39
  Ridwan: So yeah, it's uh part of journey, I guess.
• 5:43
  Ridwan: And now here I am, because of the photography as well.
• 5:46
  Matt: So at what at what point in your um, I guess, photography journey did the camera start becoming a way of thinking and seeing what rather than just recording?
• 5:59
  Matt: Do you know what you know what I mean?
• 6:01
  Matt: Like documenting is where we all start.
• 6:03
  Matt: When did it become much more of a you know, a philosophical tool and a way of living, a way of thinking, a way of seeing and expressing?
• 6:13
  Ridwan: I don't know when exactly, but get along.
• 6:17
  Ridwan: I'm grow grown as a man.
• 6:19
  Ridwan: It's uh it's also helping me to understand life through photography.
• 6:26
  Ridwan: I mean, I met a lot of people, and we as a photographer is uh a third person.
• 6:32
  Ridwan: So we kind of observe everything at one moment and we kind of select which one should I take and which one should we don't take.
• 6:40
  Ridwan: But basically, by observing those kind of things, for me it's always like uh being a third person in this one scene and absorb and you think about what it's all about and what it does mean.
• 6:57
  Ridwan: It's something unlogical at some point, because it's also how can I say it?
• 7:04
  Ridwan: It's yeah, it's philosophical at some point.
• 7:07
  Ridwan: If you ask me when is start, it's really hard to answer actually.
• 7:11
  Matt: But what what's the um most of it's illogical for sure?
• 7:15
  Matt: Certainly as you get into I guess more of the artistic elements of photography, but when what what do you think is driving those moments that you choose to take?
• 7:25
  Matt: I mean, I've seen you I've I've watched you photograph a lot of a lot of times, and you're quite instinctive.
• 7:31
  Matt: Um you have a good balance between being reactive and being proactive and you know, kind of conceptual.
• 7:38
  Matt: But what do you think is in here that's driving those decisions for you to shoot or not to shoot?
• 7:44
  Matt: What are you interested in through the lens the most?
• 7:49
  Ridwan: So I do believe uh as a photographer, it's required uh some specific sensitivity of yourself as a human to observe.
• 8:00
  Ridwan: And apparently it's not on the day during with your camera, but also it's affected without when you without the camera itself.
• 8:09
  Ridwan: So I think this job is really not uh require technical things only, but also about how you see in psychological uh affect you as a human, that holding the camera and how much you have a sensitivity about something and how to react about it.
• 8:30
  Ridwan: And it's really, really reflect on the work itself.
• 8:33
  Ridwan: So I think to answer your question is about being a sensitive person at some point, and then you will know because you observe the people, you will know when to shoot and we not and when you have to move or how to shoot these people right.
• 8:51
  Ridwan: Because every person like taking portraits could be the same because the this person cannot, a dead person can, or if you saw some reference, it's really good portrait, but maybe if you're gonna do it in different ways, so it's not it's it's always never the same.
• 9:07
  Ridwan: Because every human has different sensitivity.
• 9:09
  Ridwan: And I think this kind of thing requires that stuff.
• 9:15
  Matt: Sensitivity.
• 9:16
  Ridwan: Yeah.
• 9:16
  Matt: Love it.
• 9:17
  Matt: Do you think that's kind of training has come from your wedding photography background?
• 9:21
  Matt: Those sensitivities and training as in like training your mind to be a little bit sensitive and selective with how you know, understanding when you're gonna be shooting, certainly in and around people.
• 9:34
  Ridwan: Uh kinda, yeah, but to be honest, so the moment that trained me that much about my wedding photography is while I'm shooting my grandma and grandpa for six years, I guess.
• 9:47
  Matt: Okay.
• 9:48
  Ridwan: So uh I mean I'm seeing them as a couple, old couples.
• 9:53
  Ridwan: And then uh I could see the proof of couples being ages, you know.
• 10:01
  Ridwan: And in my job, I met the young couple.
• 10:04
  Ridwan: And also at the moment I saw their album about my family and stuff, and I kinda maybe I could think that some people is some pictures not really aesthetically like today's, of course, but it's functional.
• 10:18
  Ridwan: No matter how it looks, uh how it's gonna the pictures look like, but I still get an information how is my grandpa when he's young, or my grandma when uh she's feeding on me.
• 10:31
  Ridwan: At some point the picture is have some function over the aesthetic.
• 10:35
  Ridwan: So if you ask me about how am I training my mind related to my wedding photographies from my personal project from my grandma and grandpa pictures.
• 10:47
  Ridwan: I mean, I've been seeing them every day, daily, how they touch or how they talk actually.
• 10:54
  Ridwan: Sometimes it's not too sweet, but but yeah, it's they're they're still there and feeling each other and I could reflect what kind of picture my clients gonna need at the end of the day.
• 11:07
  Ridwan: Yeah.
• 11:08
  Matt: Sorry to cut away from the episode for a minute, but I wanted to talk to you about something very quickly.
• 11:14
  Matt: Now, I spent a long time thinking that isolation was part of the deal when it came to photography.
• 11:19
  Matt: That if you were serious about the work, you did it alone.
• 11:23
  Matt: You'd consume enough, watch enough, read enough, and eventually it would all cohere into something meaningful.
• 11:30
  Matt: And it sometimes did.
• 11:32
  Matt: But mostly I was just alone with my doubts and no one to push back on them.
• 11:38
  Matt: What changed things for me wasn't a course or a workshop.
• 11:42
  Matt: It was a conversation with someone who was doing the same kind of work and cared about it in exactly the same way I did.
• 11:50
  Matt: The doubts didn't disappear, but they got a little bit smaller and I felt more okay with them.
• 11:56
  Matt: They got named.
• 11:57
  Matt: That's what I'm building with The Mood Insiders.
• 12:00
  Matt: It's a place where the work is taken seriously, where you can bring your questions and, of course, your half-finished ideas, and where someone will actually engage with them.
• 12:11
  Matt: We have the ad-free extended podcast episodes with bonus content.
• 12:16
  Matt: We have monthly masterclasses, QA sessions, and of course the weekly book clubs and direct access to me and my team because you don't have to do this alone.
• 12:26
  Matt: So the link is in the show notes, and hopefully I'll see you inside.
• 12:30
  Matt: You talked about function and uh as a as a photograph.
• 12:35
  Matt: So do you think there is photography that is art and photography that isn't art?
• 12:41
  Matt: How would you find that line?
• 12:45
  Ridwan: Uh, since uh from what I know, photography is still debating, is it art or no?
• 12:50
  Ridwan: Still the debate's still going on comparing to painting, blah, blah, and other art form because of the process time of how you made it, the artwork itself.
• 13:01
  Ridwan: But uh my standpoint is uh I really want to make a piece of art that also have a function.
• 13:11
  Matt: Give me an example.
• 13:13
  Ridwan: Give an example like architectural, they have an art platform, but also they're thinking about the function itself.
• 13:24
  Ridwan: Yeah, some architect maybe not thinking about the function, or vice versa, also not thinking about their art, but I think it's gonna be good if you couldn't could combine those two things in one piece of work.
• 13:39
  Ridwan: Yeah.
• 13:41
  Matt: So what does art mean to you as a definition?
• 13:46
  Ridwan: Art uh it could be different from any moment to answer that.
• 13:51
  Ridwan: Uh for me is uh art it's uh a way to express yourself whether it's good or bad, or any intention that you want to express.
• 14:03
  Ridwan: Or any how can I say this here?
• 14:07
  Ridwan: Like fixing your life at some point by making an art.
• 14:11
  Ridwan: There's many answers for that actually.
• 14:14
  Matt: But But there are some things in this life that you would say are not art, and you would say there are some things that are are art, right?
• 14:23
  Matt: I don't know, but like um let me try and try and try and give an example.
• 14:28
  Matt: I think you know, making a bag.
• 14:30
  Matt: You know, someone someone makes a bag.
• 14:32
  Matt: Yeah, it could be there could be art or it could be just function.
• 14:36
  Matt: You know, walking the dog is not art.
• 14:39
  Matt: Walking a dog is not art.
• 14:41
  Matt: R going for a run is not art.
• 14:44
  Matt: But there's an art for running, right?
• 14:46
  Matt: It can be artistic, yeah.
• 14:48
  Matt: I mean, but me going for a run is not me creating art, is it?
• 14:52
  Ridwan: Well, also for me, banana is not an art, but for Andy Warhol it's an art.
• 14:56
  Matt: So it's always depends on the.
• 14:58
  Matt: Yeah, but the banana is not the art.
• 15:00
  Matt: His painting of the banana is the art.
• 15:03
  Matt: As I remember, he put a banana in the wall and just taped it on it.
• 15:08
  Matt: Oh, okay.
• 15:09
  Matt: Remember that?
• 15:09
  Matt: Yeah, but the but the the object itself, he's made an object into a subject.
• 15:15
  Matt: Right.
• 15:15
  Matt: By doing that.
• 15:16
  Matt: The object of the banana, no one made that uh unless you obviously believe in God or other higher powers that have created something like that specifically.
• 15:24
  Ridwan: But what if I just put banana randomly?
• 15:26
  Ridwan: Are you gonna call it art or no?
• 15:27
  Ridwan: If you do what, sorry?
• 15:28
  Ridwan: If I just put randomly a banana on the wall, are you gonna call it art or no?
• 15:34
  Ridwan: Me?
• 15:34
  Ridwan: No.
• 15:35
  Ridwan: But people call it an art.
• 15:37
  Matt: Yeah, but the the banana is not the art.
• 15:39
  Matt: The fact you put it on the wall is what they, you know, in in that context, is what they deem art.
• 15:45
  Matt: Like if someone just handed a banana to you to eat, you wouldn't say, I'm eating art.
• 15:53
  Ridwan: Yes, true.
• 15:54
  Ridwan: Fair enough.
• 15:55
  Matt: No, I'm just trying to like, I don't think there's a right or wrong with this because the issue I have and to be the the devil's advocate here, to be this cynical, grumpy old man, of course.
• 16:05
  Matt: Is that I see s everyone calling themselves an artist.
• 16:08
  Matt: And not that I say I'm an artist and there's no like elitism here at all.
• 16:13
  Matt: Yeah.
• 16:13
  Matt: But I think for art to be as powerful as art can be, there has to be some lines of discernment where we say that is art because it's extremely powerful and means something to the artist or to the person experiencing it, whatever those layers of art might be.
• 16:31
  Matt: And I'm on one side of the fence, I agree.
• 16:34
  Matt: There are, yeah, I I like to step away from the conventional forms of art.
• 16:38
  Matt: There are other arts that are outside the painting and the music.
• 16:42
  Matt: And I mean, I mean, photography is definitely an art.
• 16:45
  Matt: I don't think that's a debate.
• 16:46
  Matt: But I also think there's photography that isn't art.
• 16:48
  Matt: You know, if your beginner has picked up a camera, right, and you just take a shot with your iPhone of a dog, and you've never taken a photo before, I I would argue that that's not art.
• 17:02
  Matt: Right.
• 17:02
  Matt: That's just a picture.
• 17:03
  Matt: Right.
• 17:04
  Matt: And that's where there's there's this huge gray area in the middle, and we have so many people call themselves artists, and you look at their work, just go, well, why?
• 17:13
  Matt: You don't don't necessarily judge it, but once you ask more questions about it, they can't explain what that means to them, or they just they think that something visual is art, right?
• 17:24
  Matt: So it's I think we have to be a little bit protect protective of this word art.
• 17:29
  Matt: And I don't think there's a specific definition.
• 17:32
  Matt: Like you said, I think everyone has their own subjective definition of art or photography as art.
• 17:37
  Matt: So yeah, I don't think there's a point to what I'm saying.
• 17:40
  Matt: I just like to have some kind of standards in in that respect.
• 17:45
  Matt: And now everyone has a camera in their hand.
• 17:48
  Matt: Like we can't call everyone an artist because they've got an iPhone, right?
• 17:52
  Matt: It's like, where's the where Okay?
• 17:56
  Ridwan: So uh there's two things I want to respond from your sentences.
• 17:59
  Ridwan: It's the but I do understand about maybe you're just hearing many uh claim, oh, he's an artist, blah, blah, and stuff, way too much.
• 18:07
  Ridwan: And then the second about the photography from the phone itself.
• 18:10
  Ridwan: Uh okay.
• 18:12
  Ridwan: This is my perspective.
• 18:14
  Ridwan: Yeah uh yeah, since living in Bali, I in the middle of comedy of an artist, blah blah and stuff, and yeah, I do get your point.
• 18:22
  Ridwan: And for me, I always can really tell which one is the real artist or not.
• 18:31
  Ridwan: It's it's uh how can I tell you?
• 18:34
  Ridwan: How am I described them?
• 18:36
  Ridwan: I don't know, maybe I'm just a bit cynical at some point.
• 18:40
  Ridwan: And and by that I can judge, but never speak out a lot of this to that person.
• 18:47
  Ridwan: But I always can tell, okay.
• 18:50
  Matt: Uh but why do you think you can tell?
• 18:54
  Matt: Is it because you feel something from it, whereas something else you may not feel something from it, or you can you can identify the intention of what the artist is trying to do or say.
• 19:05
  Ridwan: Yeah, it's it's from the work itself that represents what is the intention of the maker.
• 19:12
  Ridwan: No judge.
• 19:13
  Ridwan: It could be anything, and it there's no right or wrong about this.
• 19:17
  Ridwan: But um what I'm trying to say is uh is for me, I I'm quite confident to say it, uh yeah, maybe I can judge what is the intention.
• 19:29
  Ridwan: But again, it could be everything.
• 19:32
  Ridwan: The intention could be the business or the money or uh trying to look cool or even curious or and it could be anything, but it's nothing to do is right and wrong unless you do it in honest whatever the reason.
• 19:52
  Ridwan: If you wanna really get money from this, I mean totally all in.
• 19:55
  Ridwan: Do it in the business-wise thinking, you know.
• 19:59
  Ridwan: Not not trying to mix it up because you're gonna wanna mess it up your business anyway, then.
• 20:06
  Ridwan: If you wanna be an artist, also you don't try to mix it up with a business decision.
• 20:10
  Ridwan: It's a letter-on thing.
• 20:13
  Ridwan: But at the beginning you need to put it all in in one intention with more focus about it.
• 20:21
  Ridwan: So I think I always can tell what what and it's something I it's earned by someone, I guess, to claim as as an artist.
• 20:29
  Ridwan: It's a good way of saying it.
• 20:31
  Ridwan: I think so, yeah.
• 20:32
  Matt: Yeah.
• 20:32
  Ridwan: Earning earning that.
• 20:33
  Ridwan: Yeah, just earning that.
• 20:34
  Ridwan: It's not something you can say to yourself in front of other people.
• 20:38
  Ridwan: And until today, I don't even confident to say I'm an artist, blah blah.
• 20:41
  Ridwan: So I don't I don't really have kind of uh how can I say confidence to say it.
• 20:47
  Ridwan: So I remember one uh one time I went to Malaysia and went some galleries, some and it's uh painting gallery and photos photography galleries, and they got some exhibition.
• 20:58
  Ridwan: I I even asked uh the one uh exhibition that's shown the artwork asked me, are you an artist or not?
• 21:06
  Ridwan: I was answering, like, I I'm not confident to say I'm an artist.
• 21:11
  Ridwan: And he kind of asked me the question and do you like your work?
• 21:15
  Ridwan: Yes, I do.
• 21:15
  Ridwan: So you're an artist.
• 21:17
  Ridwan: Okay.
• 21:19
  Ridwan: Probably I'm an artist.
• 21:20
  Ridwan: I like my work.
• 21:21
  Matt: What would you say your voice is?
• 21:24
  Matt: And that's a cliche, and I hate to use it, but I think because we're talking about artistic elements within photography, I think, like you said, intention is such a huge part of that to translate one's intention into the understanding of the viewer.
• 21:37
  Matt: So you you have an intention to express something or to make yourself feel something, and hopefully that connects the viewer into the same emotions or curiosity or something else that they feel or understand.
• 21:50
  Matt: That is someone's voice, right?
• 21:53
  Matt: They're they're saying something, they're able to translate it into the viewer's mind.
• 21:57
  Matt: Right.
• 21:58
  Matt: What would you say that is?
• 22:00
  Ridwan: for you Oh no okay I'm gonna answer it by this so I you I feel it after I move to Bali like like I feel like I start to care less about the what people think about my works actually and I it's it's on the game you know it's uh it's really like uh it's gonna affect you as an artist or no because uh at the same moment artists need feasibility to become yeah quote unquote work as an artist and earn money blah blah stuff and in Bali uh I feel like there's a lot of people in my form as a photographer doing a really good pictures and I agree making good pictures in here really really not really easy but easy things comparing to let's say Jakarta maybe because here we're dealing with foreigners with a different skin tone maybe different lights we go to the beach go to strangers blah blah and stuff.
• 23:22
  Ridwan: Kind of like that many many things going on that can uh elaborate your works become uh good to with a big amount of audience but at some point I don't want to be like everyone else so and also at the same point the artist needs feasibility right so it's kind of a game you know like but at the end of the day I was like no I'm not gonna do this kind of stuff uh because of the feasibility I'm just gonna do the things that I do really like doesn't matter uh how much the audience is gonna like it and just wishing at the end of the day I met some people that really understand and we have some vision and we can work together.
• 24:12
  Ridwan: I mean like you brother I feel like uh finally someone see the vision of the how am I working and how's the picture itself.
• 24:24
  Ridwan: But and of course since the beginning I knew and I consciously this is not for everyone.
• 24:33
  Ridwan: So I know how big the spectrum and the audience for this kind of works and that's all right.
• 24:42
  Matt: And also you just can't the more you worry about what other people think about your work and the more you worry about I mean this going back to what we're talking about art, on one side of things and they'll talk talk to beginners and amateurs about this all the time it's like you've got to be prepared to go and get feedback.
• 24:59
  Matt: So there's an element of not worrying about what people say but interested in what people think about your work.
• 25:05
  Matt: Right.
• 25:05
  Matt: I think that's important for us always to be evolving and learning.
• 25:08
  Matt: Yeah.
• 25:09
  Matt: But yeah at some point you've just got to you know it's almost like Q money.
• 25:14
  Matt: You know you don't have Q money but you have few talent.
• 25:16
  Matt: It's like well f you I don't need I don't really care about what you think.
• 25:19
  Matt: But talent is chip bro.
• 25:21
  Matt: Yeah yeah but I mean you've got something that you believe in yourself you know like that guy asking you do you like your work?
• 25:29
  Matt: So if you like your work that's all you need right to believe to that you're good enough to just do what you love and not worry about I mean you can't compete with the people on social media that you can't compete with eight billion people in the world.
• 25:42
  Matt: You can't compete with a hundred thousand people I mean you could try a hundred thousand professional photographers like yeah what's the point?
• 25:49
  Matt: Go you might as well just find your lane and stick in it.
• 25:53
  Matt: Because finding your lane finding your lane is the difficult part and understanding what you like.
• 25:58
  Matt: So that's my question back to you.
• 26:00
  Matt: It's like you you know what you like what is that in photography?
• 26:05
  Matt: What is it that you like to shoot in photography?
• 26:08
  Ridwan: Okay I was very itchy to answer that because my words really sound cliche yeah of course I was saying things very cliche but also at the same time it's already really dangerous to say it because it's it could be make some other people okay I'm just gonna alright sorry yeah I'm just gonna do it whatever I like.
• 26:31
  Ridwan: Yeah.
• 26:32
  Ridwan: For me how can I say that kind of stuff because I've been through many kind of experience and have a same routine a year and I go through a few classes and read a few books.
• 26:51
  Ridwan: So I kinda knew how to make construction of this work.
• 26:56
  Ridwan: And after I knew how to construct it so I knew how to destroy it properly.
• 27:01
  Ridwan: So I always like put this analogy to whenever I talk about this is have you ever saw the bomb of one big apartment?
• 27:12
  Ridwan: Where?
• 27:13
  Ridwan: A bomb with they to destroy they're trying to destroy one big apartment with the bomb.
• 27:18
  Ridwan: In Bali.
• 27:19
  Ridwan: No anywhere in the world oh right yeah I see what I mean yeah yeah yeah so uh the workers need to put the right bomb in the right places not randomly put it you know if you randomly put it you're just gonna mess up with the neighbors and even yourself.
• 27:36
  Ridwan: And how they make a they can put the right bomb and in the right place because they know the construction.
• 27:43
  Ridwan: So what I'm trying to say is maybe I'm saying I I in a part of I'm gonna do whatever I like but at the beginning I know the construction how is it works and how I know really well to discon disconstructive my works until I love it to disconstructive my work and after yeah let's the audience judge and I don't really matter of it.
• 28:07
  Ridwan: So yeah that's that's my standing point about saying just I just love what I do and doesn't care about everyone else but not the simple answer because some people just gonna do it and bro this is art or bro I do whatever I want I read somewhere or I hear some someone in podcast saying he doing whatever he wants and meet the right audience but no on my side yeah like like what I'm saying before it's a it's his journey not the construction of the work itself then you can discard disconstruct your work.
• 28:47
  Matt: Yeah I love that that's a great analogy now there comes a point in every photographer's journey where gear or technique stops being the question you've learned your camera you can read light you know how to edit how to produce what a good frame looks like and you can probably make one on demand quite easily but something is still missing the work feels good competent maybe even pretty but it doesn't quite feel completely yours.
• 29:15
  Matt: It doesn't really say anything that couldn't have been said by someone else on Instagram with the same camera.
• 29:22
  Matt: That's the moment most people get stuck not at the beginning but right here right there somewhere in the middle of it in the midst of it where you have all the tools but not really any of the language.
• 29:34
  Matt: And the reason it's so hard to move past is because nobody can teach you your voice in a tutorial or a silly little YouTube video.
• 29:43
  Matt: Because it's not a setting on the dial it has to be drawn out of you slowly by methods and introspections that actually allow you to look at yourself and your work and challenge you with the harder questions all in order to draw out your unique and photographic voice.
• 30:01
  Matt: That's what my voice alchemy mentorship program is.
• 30:06
  Matt: It's an online container for photographers who really already know how to use their camera but want to use it to say something that's more meaningful and that actually matters to them.
• 30:18
  Matt: Personalized strategy honest feedback and the kind of work that builds a body a voice and a brand that actually gets noticed it's not a course it's just the thing I always wished I'd had and it's the thing I now spend most of my days doing.
• 30:34
  Ridwan: The link is in the show notes so if something in this is calling you hit the link and we'll see where you're at so would you say then there is a there is a such a thing as a good photograph and a bad photograph is there a is there go through classes like you said read books uh speak to people listen to podcasts look obviously look at hundreds and thousands of of photographers' work we have a brain that's evolved over millions of years to think black and white like fix this you know problem solution good bad am I doing well or am I not doing well and we struggle as humans in such a young medium that photography is to understand like you know people just want to be told and people ask me all the time is this good well like it's not that simple or is it yeah uh no oh it's very I like this kind of discussion because um by age and there's a part of my life in photography of course aiming a really good picture I mean good good pictures and how to make it in perfect uh formula good lights blah blah stuff and also relatively I found it's very boring to do I know as I was before we started the podcast I was reading some randomly opened the page from the book it's it said related to this topic he did say this is uh the creative acts by Rick Rubin we're gonna we're gonna get onto that yeah a little bit later but yeah it said if you trying to make a perfection if in your art it's very overwhelming and really agree and related to our previous talk about the audience he said um if your art it's like by many audience so you don't go further enough so yeah these really good books anyway so nowadays it's really hard for me to tell which is which one is really bad photography or not because for me this time perfection photography also bore me that much and but there's an ugly picture of course it's really hard I don't know maybe just me can tell it isn't that just taste kinda but you always know for me maybe I'm too subjective about it because I more kinda envy with some group of people or like people uh who not in to to photography like us but producing a really good picture to the to their phone but so for some people of course not a bad picture but I know how you think that way we can and there's a part of me during my life trying to make this kind of picture always really hard because I'm starting copying them but they're being genuine but me not.
• 33:48
  Ridwan: You can't copy cannot so it's really hard to tell but uh but I think I've been through this photography life for ages so yeah this their picture is really good and I I'm so envy with people that not really into the photography don't even know about the lenses about the role of third things but produce a really good picture and the picture itself feel close to me because it's banality on the pictures and I was imagining how can you make this picture and me at the same place doesn't make it so it kinda hit you know some feelings you know like yeah what I'm trying to say is again it's really hard to say an ugly picture or no because uh no no I wouldn't say ugly good or bad that's different.
• 34:44
  Matt: Yeah sorry good or bad pictures but for me good pictures again is uh have a function and affected too many kind of people yeah and especially functional really good things doesn't matter about the you need to watch the Hans Harsman on the TED talks so it's it's uh this is my favorite Tel Talks whenever I feel stuck I'm gonna go back to the video because basically he talks about how he uh he produced photography that really close to painting and it's kinda it's really irritating for him why my photography always related to paintings also uh he tells us a story about one photographer like CF photographer he the photographer works for the some company for some government to take a picture of empty road or to to for the job only this is really interesting so this photographer using a mopped every time a job one day he took a picture the moppet is lost because somebody still it so he bought another moppet and then after every picture of the attack and of the road there always is mopped inside the frame it's always something special yeah right but it's not really in a good aesthetic way you know but we we can we cannot copy that way right because I'm trying to be I'm not him and I'm not being genuine he is genuine the picture tells the story yeah about his moppet he just doesn't want to lose his moped again it's a it's a beautiful thing for me over the aesthetic blah blah and stuff you know aesthetics have a function and um I've always been drawn to aesthetic photographs before the the function functional or more documentative photos.
• 36:53
  Matt: I appreciate everything in photography of course and respect all of it there's something about a beautiful photograph that will pull it's like a hook.
• 37:01
  Matt: You know it just hooks me in initially and then I have time to sit with that image and if it doesn't say much then it's just another image but sometimes you can get that beautiful combination of an aesthetically pleasing photo and something that's original meaningful and has layers to it and that's really for me that's the artistic side of photography.
• 37:23
  Matt: But um yeah that's it that's a really interesting story and we'll check that TED talk out because I'll I will I have to bro really I'll have a look at it um where where do you find inspirations other than you know and talking photographers mainly specifically um who are your kind of biggest go-to's when it's inspirations you can't copy authenticity cannot cannot so that's something that's I haven't really thought about before but not being able to um emulate someone's brain you know we think about it like that the the the camera's just an extension of the brain right and there we are trying to like copy people and that works and that's good and you can just like you said you can just really really tell the difference.
• 38:11
  Ridwan: So did you I mean we all tried to copy some people when we were learning but who are your inspirations now or before like certainly learning photography who were the big names that you you turned to I know Diane Arbus was was one of them who else uh okay I'm just uh first I'm gonna comment about a copy the what you said before it's really interesting to talk so uh yeah we do copy people in our journey in photography of course and you will find yourself copied by someone else right and you feel at some point you're also gonna feel kinda some people feel irritated by copy it by someone else and I was thinking about it a few months and then part of my journey of photography and uh it's come up to the conclusion it's very impossible to copy someone's works.
• 39:13
  Matt: Why?
• 39:13
  Matt: Because uh first uh me not him and him not me.
• 39:23
  Ridwan: And the other things that realize me that much it's I couldn't even copy it myself about my previous work.
• 39:33
  Ridwan: No.
• 39:33
  Ridwan: So why worry?
• 39:35
  Ridwan: Yeah people's gonna copy you because there's one time that some pictures I really I kinda like it.
• 39:43
  Ridwan: And I'm trying to copy it.
• 39:46
  Ridwan: Again, even it's on my own pictures you know it's feel totally different.
• 39:50
  Ridwan: So it feels like alright this is an impossible thing to do because copying myself is really hard as well but what's the point?
• 40:01
  Ridwan: And also I read from this book uh when the works is released so it's uh just say goodbye to the works.
• 40:10
  Ridwan: Because I know it's really I really need that because uh I shoot weddings I shoot at the same places sometimes yeah if I keep thinking about my previous successful picture but with different clients different days different sun different many things going on but I keep taking my previous really good pictures it always doesn't work so I'm not saying goodbye to the previous work.
• 40:36
  Matt: Have you ever had experiences before and just in life and outside of photography because this resonates with me in a in a you know a lifestyle aspect when you have like a really great dinner all right or you have a great party with friends or you just have a good dinner party or you go to a nice yeah yeah resort and have holiday and you finish that and just go, oh really that was so amazing we should do it again in New York again and it's never the same.
• 41:00
  Ridwan: Yeah of course yeah same.
• 41:02
  Ridwan: No not but there's a beauty in that it is the beauty so it's one time only.
• 41:07
  Matt: Yeah.
• 41:07
  Matt: Just like life.
• 41:09
  Ridwan: Yes exactly also with photography is safe I keep thinking about how my previous work is gonna work.
• 41:15
  Ridwan: So I do believe it's really hard this is kind of work that really hard to copy.
• 41:19
  Ridwan: Yeah but of course uh if the pictures again this if the pictures is kinda uh you can measure the lightings what gear you can use blah blah and stuff of course you could copy it unless you have the money for that.
• 41:35
  Ridwan: Yeah that's on the only reason to do that.
• 41:39
  Ridwan: But you cannot copy the works that really less technical things.
• 41:46
  Matt: Yeah have you ever been with other photographers like journal photojournalists talk about this all the time.
• 41:51
  Matt: They go to a war zone or go to some event around the world and there's many photograph photographers from different agencies.
• 41:57
  Matt: They're all in the same place but they'll get different photos right and that's a just a good analogy for you know why you shouldn't really try and copy people because it's always gonna and embrace that uniqueness that is you.
• 42:07
  Matt: Yeah.
• 42:08
  Matt: So going back to um inspirations is any any of the big photographers like give us some names that we may have heard of or may not have heard of yeah again latter um read a lot about Dana Arbus because I found it because of my routine as a photographer during not shooting day.
• 42:28
  Ridwan: So uh I got inspired because something what she said she said like the subject is more important than the photograph itself.
• 42:39
  Ridwan: So it's kind of twisting on me how explain I think having a good connection to the subject itself it's more how can I say it's more important than a piece of pictures because uh at the end of the day it's about you and the subject how you connect with them.
• 43:04
  Matt: What if the subject is not a person?
• 43:07
  Ridwan: What if the subject is not the person?
• 43:09
  Ridwan: Yeah but but this is a really good analogy whatever the subject is you need to know it.
• 43:14
  Ridwan: And if you already know it you know how to produce good pictures.
• 43:18
  Ridwan: I think it's what she's trying to say.
• 43:21
  Ridwan: If I know you more so for me photography is a visual language is how to communicate it's like people communicate to other people let's say this is our first day to talk like this I'm gonna talk you like a first person that known you rarely I mean I got cap.
• 43:42
  Ridwan: I'm gonna take a picture of you with those kind of gap.
• 43:46
  Ridwan: But what if you get along for 30 days I think I could take a picture of you in different way and personal way.
• 43:57
  Ridwan: So for me Is the sentence is really affected and it's gonna shift and change the work itself.
• 44:06
  Matt: Same with um landscapes or streets.
• 44:09
  Matt: Like you keep going back to those same places, then you become more aware and more mindful of how things move and the different light.
• 44:16
  Matt: And so yeah, I I couldn't agree with that more.
• 44:18
  Matt: I just think people are, you know, obviously they're a little bit more three-dimensional than maybe a landscape is, and it's a little bit more complex to deal with, human to human, but yeah, the principle is exactly the same.
• 44:28
  Matt: The more you get to know that location or that person, and the more you get to understand the breakdown barriers and you know it a lot better, more familiar with how things work, and you can also conceptualize, have more time to conceptualize things.
• 44:41
  Matt: So, yeah, um Diane Arbus is uh is a very interesting artist, and she had a lot to say, which I like.
• 44:50
  Matt: I like artists that don't just necessarily put images out there, but I love I love people who have an opinion because that's what makes life so interesting and diverse.
• 45:01
  Matt: And I think she was one of those artists.
• 45:04
  Matt: Yeah, kinda.
• 45:05
  Matt: Yeah.
• 45:06
  Matt: Um, speaking of books, so we have the the creative act um here by Rick Rubin, um, A Way of Being.
• 45:16
  Matt: Now, I asked you to bring these because we've talked about this book a lot, you know, off-air.
• 45:21
  Matt: And um, we even brought it up in our in our photography collective the other week.
• 45:26
  Matt: Um, it's been such a big influence on you uh and your creative journey.
• 45:31
  Matt: So I thought we could just kind of pick out a few.
• 45:33
  Matt: I mean, you've highlighted so much, pick out a few things and just kind of discuss them.
• 45:38
  Matt: But um, give us a just give us an explanation why this book means so much to you and why you enjoy it and why it's so important, you think, for many other people to to read.
• 45:48
  Matt: To read this?
• 45:49
  Ridwan: Okay.
• 45:49
  Ridwan: So um maybe also part of how to I found this book is quite personal story.
• 45:57
  Ridwan: So long story short, I found this book uh when I w I'm about to go to Japan and uh I I saw this book on the bookstore in the airport.
• 46:07
  Ridwan: And uh but apparently I didn't bought the book on the day because it's quite big and I my travel bag is not that big.
• 46:16
  Ridwan: I I buy the uh another book.
• 46:19
  Ridwan: And after my Japan trip, I met one of my friends, and he said, Hey, have you read this?
• 46:23
  Ridwan: I think you need to read this.
• 46:25
  Ridwan: This book.
• 46:26
  Ridwan: But again, I didn't bought it because I was in Bekin Padang and we just have a bookstore that uh we don't have Periplus over there.
• 46:34
  Matt: But I didn't know Periplus is like for people watching and listening, Peri Plus is like um I'm trying to think of a universal book.
• 46:43
  Matt: This is a bookstore basically.
• 46:44
  Matt: Yeah, online and in location.
• 46:47
  Ridwan: But I didn't take it, uh bought it online anyway.
• 46:50
  Ridwan: Until one day uh I went to Bali again for a trip back and forth.
• 46:55
  Ridwan: I found uh one cafe on Malasty that has this book.
• 47:00
  Ridwan: This this became my reason.
• 47:03
  Ridwan: I need to go to the cafe itself and then read this.
• 47:06
  Ridwan: And end up being friends to the owner because we talked about the book and the book just hooked me at the first reading.
• 47:13
  Ridwan: And uh why people need to read this and why this is important for me as well.
• 47:20
  Ridwan: The feeling after reading this is because I don't know you, yeah.
• 47:26
  Ridwan: But me as uh I have no creative background before.
• 47:30
  Ridwan: I don't I don't study art.
• 47:32
  Ridwan: I don't study art.
• 47:34
  Ridwan: It's not very Indonesian thing, I guess.
• 47:39
  Ridwan: Have a but of course there's uh faculty that focuses on art, but me, in my case, I didn't.
• 47:47
  Ridwan: I study economics.
• 47:48
  Ridwan: And I I always think about this form by myself or having discussion with you or my friend, but end up in your head.
• 47:58
  Ridwan: It's always in your head.
• 47:59
  Ridwan: It's no one giving a validation if it is right or not.
• 48:05
  Ridwan: And after reading this book and searching the guy who write this and how many experience him with the artist, yeah, I start to feel believe it about my works even more.
• 48:20
  Ridwan: And then I feel like finally there's someone writing about this that everything previously in your head become a book form.
• 48:33
  Ridwan: It's from someone that validated in this kind of work.
• 48:39
  Ridwan: So I think it really helps a lot.
• 48:43
  Ridwan: And the right the book's really good, the writing is really good.
• 48:46
  Matt: Yeah.
• 48:47
  Matt: Um for someone for someone who comes from, I guess, um, he has lots of different experiences in different art forms, but he's made mainly a music background, music producer background, and to make it so universal to all art is it was so um relevant and resonant with with any reader.
• 49:07
  Matt: Um I struggled with this book initially just as a flow state to read, you know, like something that's that's still has a story to it.
• 49:16
  Matt: And this really doesn't.
• 49:17
  Matt: I mean, it has sections, but it's much more of a a Bible than it is, or a memorandum than it is uh, you know, something that's even non-fiction but has some kind of arc to it.
• 49:28
  Matt: But yeah, when when I got through it, um I had a conversation with my friend about this book as well.
• 49:35
  Matt: And it's lovely to hear that so many people talk about this book.
• 49:38
  Matt: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:39
  Matt: Yeah, that's another, you know, art form in itself that connects people, and we'll we'll talk about books as well soon.
• 49:46
  Matt: Um he said he this friend he said, yeah, I just use it as a go-to when I'm a little bit stuck to get inspiration.
• 49:54
  Matt: He'll just open up any random page, a bit like you did this morning.
• 49:58
  Matt: But open up any random page and just read that page, and guaranteed it will help him have a little bit of spark for that day.
• 50:04
  Matt: Even if it's just get up out of a chair and go do something.
• 50:07
  Matt: Um, and so I started using it like that, and my goodness, it really, really, really does help.
• 50:13
  Matt: Um, but I've I've I've I've opened up this page here, and just to kind of double down on what we were talking about in terms of art, and you've highlighted this and ask you why you highlighted it, but it says this art is choosing to do something skillfully.
• 50:28
  Matt: So there's there's skill in it.
• 50:32
  Matt: Like I don't think we can call anything art, uh, but okay.
• 50:36
  Matt: Art is choosing to do something skillfully, caring about the details, bringing all of yourself to make the finest work you can.
• 50:44
  Matt: It is beyond ego, vanity, self-glorification, and need for approval.
• 50:49
  Ridwan: Yeah.
• 50:50
  Ridwan: This is what we discuss about since starting, you know.
• 50:54
  Ridwan: Yeah.
• 50:54
  Ridwan: It's all about.
• 50:55
  Matt: Yeah.
• 50:56
  Matt: I think it sums it up beautifully.
• 50:57
  Matt: And I think we how do you how do you feel about today's world and need?
• 51:03
  Matt: I mean, I'm gonna ask you a little bit about the differences between East and West and Indonesia and the and the West as well, because um, I see tangible differences certainly when it comes to tangible differences, like vis visible, I shouldn't say tangible, visible differences in terms of how I guess art is perceived and how photography is used.
• 51:24
  Matt: And you touch upon it a little bit there earlier, like in the West, art is it's there are specific education departments, specific school art schools, right?
• 51:36
  Matt: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:36
  Matt: Where you have much less here, if any, and it's just kind of gets pushed aside as no, you need to go and do business, you need to go and get a proper job in that kind of like the conventional hierarchy of career ladder.
• 51:47
  Matt: But and that aside, um what how do you see this status game that we all play?
• 51:54
  Matt: And how do you kind of not get embroiled in that battle of being visible?
• 52:00
  Matt: You know, the thing with photographers is we want to make work and we want to make people happy, we want to make ourselves happy.
• 52:05
  Matt: And part of that is the sharing.
• 52:06
  Matt: You know, there's an argument that is photography art if you never share it, or is art art if you if no one ever sees it?
• 52:14
  Matt: What where again, where where is that line?
• 52:16
  Matt: But people get drawn into that status game and the chasing status of need for approval.
• 52:24
  Matt: Do you battle with that a lot?
• 52:26
  Matt: Have you managed, and you talked earlier about not necessarily caring what other people think anymore, but you're human and there's still uh you still want to be liked?
• 52:35
  Matt: Yeah.
• 52:36
  Ridwan: All right.
• 52:36
  Ridwan: Um yeah, I got your point, but uh here.
• 52:40
  Ridwan: Yeah, of course it's kind of irritating at the beginning.
• 52:43
  Ridwan: And but after I read some books, so this book is written by Ahmad Sadeli.
• 52:49
  Ridwan: Ahmad Sadali is a big lecture or teacher or sister.
• 52:54
  Ridwan: He's a painter, and he also has a big role in uh Itebe.
• 53:00
  Ridwan: Itebe is uh famous university in Indonesia in Bandong.
• 53:04
  Ridwan: They have a Java.
• 53:06
  Ridwan: In Bandong.
• 53:08
  Ridwan: So Ramat Sadel is one of the guys that uh founded by Rothschild, I guess.
• 53:16
  Matt: Roth Rothschild.
• 53:18
  Ridwan: Okay.
• 53:18
  Ridwan: And uh the book tells us about how he traveled the world from Asia to Europe and America to have a uh like you know, you went to study there and you comparing to your places.
• 53:36
  Ridwan: How do you call that?
• 53:38
  Ridwan: So this this Ahmad Sadali went to the America and also Asian.
• 53:46
  Ridwan: And there's some moment when he went to America, he went to the Iowa, went to some university, and from those parts I realize what happened in here.
• 53:59
  Ridwan: Because uh on the that university focus on art, the class is for everyone.
• 54:08
  Ridwan: So if you're not in an art class, you you still keep into the class.
• 54:15
  Ridwan: Here we don't even have the class at some point, and even there we we cannot enter the class.
• 54:20
  Ridwan: In my university we don't have an art uh faculty.
• 54:24
  Ridwan: And then on the aisle of the campus campus, it's many art displayed.
• 54:33
  Ridwan: Of course, it's affected to the student.
• 54:38
  Ridwan: The student's gonna be audience.
• 54:40
  Ridwan: So since their era in university, they absorb and get used to with the art.
• 54:48
  Ridwan: And it's affected to everything at the end of the day, affected to industry, affected to the how you appreciate someone else's works.
• 54:56
  Ridwan: And it's not something like that happening in here.
• 55:01
  Matt: Now, when it comes to photography, the whole infrastructure of the internet rewards speed.
• 55:05
  Matt: Post small, post faster, be first, be everywhere.
• 55:09
  Matt: The algorithm doesn't care whether you went deep, it cares whether you showed up yesterday.
• 55:14
  Matt: And I guess that's not photography specific.
• 55:16
  Matt: Now, for me, I built my work around a different bet that there are people who would rather go slowly and understand something fully than go fast and understand probably nothing.
• 55:27
  Matt: That depth is not a liability, that the work you make when you take your time is categorically different from the work you make when you're chasing the feed, maybe, or chasing the algorithm.
• 55:39
  Matt: Now, the Mood Insiders is built on that same bet.
• 55:43
  Matt: It's a private community for photographers and visual artists who are serious about the slow work.
• 55:49
  Matt: We have monthly masterclasses where we actually go deep on craft and thinking.
• 55:54
  Matt: We have a weekly book club, monthly QA's.
• 55:58
  Matt: We have the podcast, of course, but ad-free with bonus content.
• 56:01
  Matt: And we have direct access to me and my team.
• 56:04
  Matt: It's not another newsletter you'll forget about, not a Discord server full of noise.
• 56:08
  Matt: It's a room with a small number of serious people and a very clear and supportive focus.
• 56:14
  Matt: It's just $19 a month.
• 56:15
  Matt: The link is in the show notes, and I really hope I can see you inside.
• 56:20
  Matt: Um, there's a couple of other pages here I want to before we move on to the other book.
• 56:25
  Matt: Um I love the notes the way is it?
• 56:30
  Ridwan: What I'm saying.
• 56:32
  Matt: Um crafting can be daunting.
• 56:34
  Matt: It's helpful to think of it as another opportunity for play.
• 56:38
  Matt: For some artists, crafting is their favorite part of the process.
• 56:42
  Matt: There is a natural joy and sense of accomplishment in following a set of instructions to create something physical and beautiful.
• 56:49
  Matt: The love and care they put into this phase can be clearly recognized in the final work.
• 56:54
  Matt: Again, kind of, I think you were talking about that a little bit later, when you uh a little bit earlier, when you said you could recognize you could recognize quite easily a photograph that's more artistic than another photograph, and that's something innate in us that we can notice, you know, this um recognize all this love and care that they put into the work in in in the final piece, and you've written here, you need love and care.
• 57:22
  Matt: What do you mean exactly?
• 57:25
  Matt: What do I read?
• 57:26
  Matt: You need love and care.
• 57:30
  Matt: Oh yeah.
• 57:30
  Matt: Obviously.
• 57:31
  Matt: You need love and care.
• 57:33
  Matt: For what?
• 57:34
  Matt: For the subject, for your work.
• 57:39
  Ridwan: I mean Okay, there's some situation like I probably can shoot people that I hate or either that you love.
• 57:49
  Ridwan: Not something in between.
• 57:50
  Ridwan: It's gonna produce really good pictures.
• 57:52
  Ridwan: Probably.
• 57:53
  Matt: Yeah.
• 57:53
  Matt: The extremes of emotion.
• 57:57
  Ridwan: I mean, when you hate it, you're gonna prove to them.
• 57:59
  Ridwan: Let's see.
• 58:00
  Ridwan: Just see me, you know?
• 58:01
  Ridwan: And it's gonna anyway it's gonna produce at the moment at most of the time I'm it's gonna produce some really good pictures.
• 58:09
  Ridwan: Or some someone you love or something you love.
• 58:12
  Ridwan: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:13
  Ridwan: So I think it's simply makes sense, I guess.
• 58:15
  Matt: Love and care is very needed.
• 58:17
  Matt: Very needed written because it can be clearly recognized in the final work.
• 58:21
  Matt: I think um, yeah, I don't know you well enough to know if you've put love into I mean, because you've done some some photographs for us here at House of Yuri.
• 58:29
  Matt: And I can definitely I think that's why I really love your work, because you can see the care in it, as well as the innovation and the creativity and all of that kind of stuff.
• 58:39
  Matt: And the aesthetics are great, they match, you know, the brand and whatever.
• 58:43
  Matt: But I can definitely see the care that you put into into the work.
• 58:48
  Matt: So I think vice versa.
• 58:51
  Matt: When you work with a photographer, or you you see a photographer or you talk to a photographer that that clearly just doesn't give a shit.
• 58:58
  Matt: It's it's just nothing, right?
• 59:01
  Matt: You they could aesthetically or technically be as good, if not better, but again, like you just don't recognize that in the final work, and therefore it doesn't mean anything to you, the viewer.
• 59:11
  Matt: I think that's a big, big difference.
• 59:13
  Matt: Well written again by Rick Rubin.
• 59:16
  Matt: What a great book.
• 59:18
  Matt: Is it?
• 59:19
  Matt: Um to this one a second, because this one's a little bit more functional.
• 59:23
  Matt: Yeah, I guess.
• 59:25
  Matt: Um, this would be a little bit more philosophical, philosophical and esoteric.
• 59:30
  Matt: And this one definitely so this is the photographer's playbook.
• 59:34
  Matt: Um, and I'm gonna cover this in my book club uh I think in September.
• 59:39
  Matt: Um, and this is basically taking an artist and the artist telling you, giving you a an assignment, basically.
• 59:47
  Matt: So what assignments in here or what uh tasks in here really resonated with you when you you first because there's what how many?
• 59:58
  Matt: 370?
• 59:59
  Ridwan: Seven seven, yeah.
• 1:00:00
  Matt: We're not gonna go through 307.
• 1:00:02
  Matt: Let's pick out one or two that you can remember.
• 1:00:05
  Matt: I mean, Andrea Modica, I'm speaking to her on the podcast uh in September as well.
• 1:00:09
  Matt: We could take something like this, Paul Moakley.
• 1:00:11
  Matt: Um, is he the curator?
• 1:00:16
  Matt: Who's it?
• 1:00:16
  Matt: Paul Moakley.
• 1:00:17
  Matt: I think Paul Moakley is.
• 1:00:19
  Matt: I'm gonna I don't want to say this on air because I could be thinking of the wrong person.
• 1:00:24
  Matt: Anyway, um, any ones in here that you can reel off from your memory that really uh Christopher McCall, yeah.
• 1:00:32
  Matt: Uh that really resonated with you in terms of what changed the way you looked at your photography?
• 1:00:39
  Ridwan: Yeah, I think so.
• 1:00:40
  Ridwan: So I don't know who's saying this, but uh he said something like if you photograph, if you're trying to photograph about something intangible, which is like feelings or something like that, make sure you could do it very well.
• 1:00:53
  Ridwan: Because if not, it's gonna be not that good.
• 1:00:56
  Ridwan: It's gonna be shit.
• 1:00:58
  Matt: Say that again.
• 1:00:59
  Ridwan: He said if you photograph something intangible like feelings.
• 1:01:03
  Ridwan: Like yeah, feelings basically.
• 1:01:06
  Ridwan: Okay, I see.
• 1:01:07
  Ridwan: Unphysical.
• 1:01:07
  Ridwan: Yeah.
• 1:01:08
  Ridwan: And you're trying to say those things, make sure you're doing it's really, really good.
• 1:01:12
  Ridwan: Unless you're gonna be super shit.
• 1:01:14
  Ridwan: Or just people are gonna have to made it up.
• 1:01:17
  Ridwan: It's really easy to made it up.
• 1:01:18
  Ridwan: Yeah.
• 1:01:19
  Ridwan: And it's really easy how to disconnect also, but yeah, from the pictures.
• 1:01:25
  Ridwan: Yeah.
• 1:01:26
  Ridwan: So those kind of things need to the pictures need to speak by itself without the art.
• 1:01:33
  Matt: That's such a wonderful uh can you remember who said it?
• 1:01:36
  Matt: Because I couldn't agree with that more.
• 1:01:37
  Matt: And I see that um I've seen it in my own work as well.
• 1:01:41
  Matt: You're trying to make something that isn't there, or trying to make trying to like uh evoke feelings that maybe are not there, or you're trying to insert layers of metaphors that just aren't there, and at the end of the day, it's just a picture of something.
• 1:01:56
  Matt: And I see that with um with a lot of photographers that are in my community and that I come into contact with, and they're they they post photos and then they make stories up.
• 1:02:05
  Matt: You know, they make stories about feelings up that that we have to try and then reconcile with the images themselves.
• 1:02:13
  Matt: So I think that's a really, really good point to bring up.
• 1:02:15
  Ridwan: Yeah, is it?
• 1:02:16
  Ridwan: And it's really hard to do, actually.
• 1:02:17
  Ridwan: Really hard to do.
• 1:02:18
  Ridwan: If you suck selfish, you're gonna be have a really, really good picture.
• 1:02:21
  Ridwan: But it's not it's not, it's gonna be super cheap.
• 1:02:25
  Matt: Especially with still images.
• 1:02:26
  Matt: Like it's just it's so difficult to do with with two-dimensional still images.
• 1:02:31
  Matt: A little bit easier to do with motion uh pictures and film, but um this one by Jeffrey Ladd about insecurity.
• 1:02:40
  Matt: I think this is a really important topic to talk about because again, so many.
• 1:02:45
  Matt: I mean, I I talk about this directing it to people like us or up and coming photographers or or beginners that want to go further with it.
• 1:02:55
  Matt: And I'm not really aiming this at the people that have already kind of made it, I guess.
• 1:03:00
  Matt: Um, even though we've made it in our own sense of the word of success, but you know what I mean.
• 1:03:06
  Matt: People are trying to learn a little bit more.
• 1:03:08
  Matt: And the one of the most common themes is self-doubt, insecurity, imposter syndrome, all of these things, right?
• 1:03:14
  Matt: Not really wanting to share their work, they're fearful about sharing the work because of what people might say about it.
• 1:03:20
  Matt: Um, so this this this one by Jeffrey Laddon.
• 1:03:23
  Matt: I'll just read.
• 1:03:24
  Matt: Um, I guess I'll just read the first paragraph.
• 1:03:27
  Matt: I believe insecurity is good for the shooting process.
• 1:03:31
  Matt: When you're out in the world with your digital camera and see something, you raise the camera, frame, and make a photograph.
• 1:03:37
  Matt: Nine times out of ten, you will look at the screen and respond to what you see previewed there and maybe try again.
• 1:03:43
  Matt: You might repeat this process three or four times before you see the results you want or expect on the screen, then you move on.
• 1:03:51
  Matt: When shooting film, obviously, you don't have the benefit of seeing the results immediately.
• 1:03:56
  Matt: So you have to work with some degree of insecurity, having no idea if you got it.
• 1:04:01
  Matt: Actually, the thought of I got it isn't part of the equation at all.
• 1:04:06
  Matt: The instinct is more to stay within the relationship you established when you responded to something in the first place.
• 1:04:12
  Matt: You keep working, shooting, and trying as many variations as your attention allows.
• 1:04:17
  Matt: Your attention is not continuously shifting between the world and your tools.
• 1:04:23
  Matt: As an assignment, I would suggest shooting photographs without looking at them in the moment.
• 1:04:27
  Matt: Work with a bit of insecurity lingering over your shoulder and see what happens.
• 1:04:31
  Matt: Put black tape over the screen if the draw to look at it is too great.
• 1:04:35
  Matt: Yeah.
• 1:04:36
  Matt: I think this for me, when I moved to fill, I mean, I'll shoot both analog and digital, but um I'll shoot analog before uh well, I'll line something up digital, right?
• 1:04:48
  Matt: So you kind of get an idea of the light.
• 1:04:50
  Matt: But then I'll primarily shoot analog.
• 1:04:54
  Matt: And it's really taught me that, exactly that, to be okay with or to develop a relationship with failure rather than with digital, you have the relationship with success and you keep going until you get it.
• 1:05:06
  Matt: Whereas film is like you, you're kind of guessing, and then nine times out of ten, it's it.
• 1:05:12
  Matt: Get in the dark room, go, oh, I have to remember to try and do something different next time.
• 1:05:17
  Matt: And so you have this like beautiful relationship with failure and learning.
• 1:05:23
  Matt: And I think that's can be extrapolated across everything in the photography world, whether it's like I said, sharing your work and being okay with that failure of maybe not something not going so great, or images you think were amazing, or not getting great feedback?
• 1:05:42
  Matt: Again, it's like putting ourselves in that situation.
• 1:05:44
  Matt: But it's almost too easy these days to with digital, with everything at our fingertips and not having to necessarily get out get out of our comfort zone.
• 1:05:55
  Matt: Um, how have you developed that relationship with failure and?
• 1:05:59
  Matt: The insecurity.
• 1:06:00
  Matt: Are you insecure as a as a photographer?
• 1:06:02
  Matt: Do you kind of push through that?
• 1:06:04
  Ridwan: Alright.
• 1:06:04
  Ridwan: Talking about insecurity is uh it's a part of me that not reading from the photography, actually.
• 1:06:13
  Ridwan: It's uh part of me that knew it from my attraction to the psychology things.
• 1:06:19
  Ridwan: They're really important to be feel natural.
• 1:06:23
  Ridwan: I knew it from Alfred Adler, one of my favorite psychologists.
• 1:06:28
  Ridwan: Uh he said it's uh the the that he talked focused more like superiority complex and inferiority complex.
• 1:06:36
  Ridwan: And I it got it comes to the conclusion it's really important to you to be in natural, in a natural position.
• 1:06:42
  Ridwan: So you don't have to be inferior or you don't have to be superior at some point.
• 1:06:47
  Ridwan: So you that's how you see yourself, and that's how you're gonna react to someone else.
• 1:06:52
  Ridwan: So it's gonna be in uh help in uh helping you communicate with other people.
• 1:07:00
  Ridwan: For example, let's say if I feel inferior in front in front of you, Matt, I feel a superior.
• 1:07:06
  Ridwan: Which you should.
• 1:07:07
  Ridwan: And I feel it's the the the conversation is gonna be so different.
• 1:07:12
  Ridwan: Yeah.
• 1:07:13
  Ridwan: If I if I feel inferior about myself, and I feel you're a superior, and vice versa.
• 1:07:18
  Ridwan: And the connection is gonna be different thing as well.
• 1:07:22
  Matt: Sorry to interrupt, but that's a really important point that you make between Indonesian culture and Western culture.
• 1:07:28
  Matt: Indonesian culture is is for its beauty, and that's why I live here, because I love it.
• 1:07:33
  Matt: But I would say one of the drawbacks or one of the limitations is the subservient or hierarchical nature of the culture.
• 1:07:41
  Matt: You again, it maybe not rely on like good and bad, like you're better than me, you're good and it's like you're more senior than me, I feel inferior to you.
• 1:07:50
  Matt: So I will sit here and I'll be very polite and respectful.
• 1:07:53
  Matt: I'll do what I'm told, I won't speak out of turn.
• 1:07:56
  Matt: Whereas in the West, it's it's the opposite, right?
• 1:07:59
  Matt: It's people feel entitled, but they they can work in in different ways.
• 1:08:04
  Matt: So I'm glad you brought that up because there's a there's a huge difference in that.
• 1:08:08
  Matt: And I don't know whether that changes the art world or that changes kind of the relationship people have with other artists and how one can make their way in the art world here in Southeast Asia.
• 1:08:22
  Matt: But sorry, Tinta, I just wanted to make that point.
• 1:08:25
  Matt: Um, but yeah, continue.
• 1:08:26
  Ridwan: Yeah, so uh about the insecurity itself, since our form is dealing with many people, you know.
• 1:08:33
  Ridwan: Like for example, what am I doing in wedding?
• 1:08:36
  Ridwan: I met a lot of people.
• 1:08:38
  Ridwan: And also uh in the middle of the community itself, we met a lot of people.
• 1:08:43
  Ridwan: And also during making a works and to release the work itself, it's shown to a lot of people.
• 1:08:50
  Ridwan: So if so if you feel insecure and doesn't feel natural at some point, there's a tension to hiding your works or pleasing other for your works.
• 1:09:06
  Ridwan: So you're not you're intentionally worried since the beginning.
• 1:09:10
  Ridwan: We've been talking about intention, it's really important, but intention also needs a preparation from yourself.
• 1:09:17
  Ridwan: So if you can have a natural position as a human and having a really good intention and moving forward to good work, and good work gonna lead you to the good community, good nominable with the good right people as well.
• 1:09:35
  Ridwan: So it's a long journey, you know, it's like a phase.
• 1:09:40
  Ridwan: Again, uh the photography itself, some of them you can always maybe this is not completely right, but you can always judge the person from the work.
• 1:09:53
  Ridwan: But of course it's very subjective, very biased.
• 1:09:58
  Ridwan: But from everyone, every famous photographer that I known the work, and maybe if I met the person, it's gonna be that not that kind of different.
• 1:10:07
  Ridwan: Like if you know like Nobiyoshi Araki, the work is very standing out about uh his wife, and after his wife passed away, it's also changed.
• 1:10:20
  Ridwan: So what I'm trying to say is the makers and the works itself are connected because the makers are intentionally honest about the works.
• 1:10:30
  Ridwan: And how if you wanna change your works, so you need to change the makers, which is you mentally and psychology.
• 1:10:40
  Ridwan: So insecurity is part of you as a makers.
• 1:10:46
  Ridwan: So if you wanna make sure and feel solid about your works, do you forget about the technical stuff of photography itself, but for this in you as a photographer, as a human, sorry, to fix it first.
• 1:11:03
  Matt: I don't know if you can fix it or completely fix it.
• 1:11:06
  Matt: You can embrace it and be okay with it and live with it and accept it and love it, that part of you because we all have it.
• 1:11:14
  Matt: Yeah, I have not met one photographer interviewing almost 150 photographers, not one of them has been self-assured enough to say, I'm great, I've got to where I want to get to, I love my work.
• 1:11:28
  Matt: You know, they love it, but they'd like it all always to better, right?
• 1:11:32
  Matt: It's always like, oh, I love it, but I can love it more, and I can do better, and I'm not that you know, Mark Power is the one that comes to mind really.
• 1:11:40
  Ridwan: But I don't I don't think it's insecurity, by the way.
• 1:11:42
  Ridwan: It's it's I think the safest way to say it to be in natural position, you know.
• 1:11:49
  Matt: Yeah.
• 1:11:49
  Matt: Yeah.
• 1:11:51
  Matt: And doesn't feel superior about the work itself.
• 1:11:56
  Matt: Um, I've written down here honest intentionality.
• 1:11:59
  Matt: I quite like that phrase.
• 1:12:01
  Matt: Um, even if you are insecure, be honest about it and use it.
• 1:12:05
  Matt: Yeah.
• 1:12:06
  Matt: You know, the insecurity can be such a useful tool with whatever message you're trying to convey or what art you're trying to create.
• 1:12:13
  Matt: So easier said than done, of course.
• 1:12:15
  Matt: Um just trying to get people to share their work in order to improve and evolve is difficult enough as it is.
• 1:12:23
  Matt: Um, social media hasn't helped with that.
• 1:12:25
  Matt: I don't want to talk about social media, but I do want to mention um, you know, I think we're both very aligned with the use of social media and how it can be intentionally on uh honestly intentional when it comes to uh using social media for a specific purpose, right?
• 1:12:43
  Matt: If you've got a business like you do, it's you know, social media can be um, you know, decent utility.
• 1:12:49
  Matt: But furthermore, like we wouldn't have met if it wasn't for social media.
• 1:12:53
  Matt: I don't think like you might have come into Hasiori, but we we we might not have actually you know spoken.
• 1:12:59
  Matt: So, and I could say that for for a lot of people that I know.
• 1:13:04
  Matt: So I'm I think that's there's no point to this, no question to it, but I just wanted to mention it, and I'm really grateful for social media in that respect.
• 1:13:11
  Matt: I think it has a lot of obviously downsides.
• 1:13:14
  Matt: Um, whether you're living in Indonesia or the US or Europe, you know, social media is ubiquitous now and it can be so damaging for our brains as much as our art.
• 1:13:23
  Matt: So um while we as we wrap up, give me give me an idea of um, you know, in in the kind of ethos of this photographer's playbook, if you were speaking to me as a young photographer coming into the industry now, what would the one assignment be that you were to give them just to kind of elevate their craft even more to make them learn the best?
• 1:13:50
  Matt: If you were to give them an assignment, what would that what might that look like?
• 1:13:58
  Matt: What is the assignment here for them?
• 1:14:01
  Ridwan: The young photographer that learn and just learn about photography.
• 1:14:07
  Ridwan: If I let's say if I met my person of myself.
• 1:14:12
  Ridwan: Yeah, that's a good younger person, what am I gonna say?
• 1:14:16
  Matt: Yeah?
• 1:14:16
  Matt: Let me ask that question again then.
• 1:14:18
  Matt: Yeah?
• 1:14:18
  Matt: Because I think that's a better rephrasing of it.
• 1:14:21
  Matt: Okay.
• 1:14:23
  Matt: In the ethos of this, in the same kind of philosophy as this book was written, um, and you were to meet a young photographer kind of coming into the space, or a younger version of yourself back then.
• 1:14:36
  Matt: Maybe something from here or something that you can think of, what would the one assignment be that you would give to that younger version of yourself that would help them grow a little bit better, a little bit faster, and just be a little bit more enlightened with the work they're trying to do?
• 1:14:52
  Ridwan: Right.
• 1:14:53
  Ridwan: Simplify if I met the young person of me, what am I gonna say?
• 1:15:01
  Matt: You're in the right places, when in the right track.
• 1:15:06
  Ridwan: And uh I'm not gonna change everything actually.
• 1:15:10
  Ridwan: Because uh me back then, through many processes creative, of course.
• 1:15:18
  Ridwan: But the beauty of it, when I aware of everything, what I'm gonna do consciously, and this is very important.
• 1:15:26
  Ridwan: What I'm trying to say is it's really really important to consciously know what you are gonna do about your works so you know the risks and the benefit of the work itself, how much the spectrum the audience, and how much you're gonna lose the audience.
• 1:15:47
  Ridwan: Because you're aware and consciously aware of it.
• 1:15:51
  Ridwan: But if not, yeah, you're gonna frustrated about this.
• 1:15:55
  Ridwan: You're gonna well, how am I not gonna feasible?
• 1:15:59
  Ridwan: Why should I correct this?
• 1:16:00
  Ridwan: Blah, blah.
• 1:16:01
  Ridwan: Never-ending question, and you're gonna never gonna find the answer.
• 1:16:05
  Ridwan: If you do it with consciously and aware, you're gonna be so easy.
• 1:16:09
  Ridwan: And you know, okay, people are not gonna like it because I'm already aware this is my spectrum.
• 1:16:15
  Ridwan: I'm okay with that.
• 1:16:16
  Ridwan: Or you're gonna pleasing people, of course, there's a big spectrum, but you have your own risks.
• 1:16:23
  Ridwan: So you need to really aware about your works.
• 1:16:27
  Matt: A short note before we close.
• 1:16:30
  Matt: For a while now, the first thing I've done most mornings before the camera or any other work, or before the coffee, before the endless tabs, is sit 10, 20, 30 minutes just watching the noise inside my head do what noise does.
• 1:16:47
  Matt: It hasn't just made me calmer in the way people imagine, it's made me more honest, more mindful, more compassionate, and more free in more ways than I could even describe.
• 1:16:58
  Matt: And that honesty and introspective clarity, more than any lens, workshop, or book, is really what changed my photography.
• 1:17:06
  Matt: The work I make now comes from a quieter place with more clearness and calmness.
• 1:17:12
  Matt: I notice what I'm reaching for, and I notice when I'm reaching for the wrong thing.
• 1:17:17
  Matt: The inner critic still talks, still exists.
• 1:17:20
  Matt: I just don't believe everything he says anymore.
• 1:17:23
  Matt: The app I've used for most of this is Waking Up by Sam Harris.
• 1:17:27
  Matt: It's the one tool I've genuinely kept returning to all this time.
• 1:17:31
  Matt: This is not a paid sponsorship from them.
• 1:17:34
  Matt: However, I am an affiliate partner, and for good reason, I believe that this app is worth it more than any other.
• 1:17:42
  Matt: What's kept me there for years is that it's not just one thing, it's a guided daily meditation, which is the spine of it for me, but there are also short daily reflections, a daily quote that tends to do its own quiet work in the background, and these little moments, they call it, of awareness you can drop into during the day.
• 1:18:02
  Matt: Two-minute resets when the head starts running.
• 1:18:06
  Matt: There's also an entire library of guest series with teachers I'd never have found on my own, and a lot more besides that.
• 1:18:15
  Matt: It keeps the practice alive instead of letting it calcify into routine.
• 1:18:19
  Matt: So a link sits in the show notes for a free 30-day trial and 20% discount on their subscriptions.
• 1:18:26
  Matt: If you want the longer story, though, of how meditation reshaped my work, there's also a piece linked through my Substack page called There's No Self-Development Without Self-Awareness.
• 1:18:37
  Matt: Anyway, I hope you enjoy.
• 1:18:39
  Matt: Thanks for listening.
• 1:18:40
  Matt: What are we not talking about enough then in the photography industry these days?
• 1:18:47
  Matt: Not talking enough, but photography.
• 1:18:50
  Ridwan: Yeah, I've been talking about gear a lot, of course, but we what we don't talk about is maybe behind the work itself.
• 1:18:59
  Ridwan: What is the photographer's mind?
• 1:19:02
  Ridwan: Yeah.
• 1:19:03
  Ridwan: I mean it's not about photography also, but so there's one moment in my life I'm asking this to some artists that I know in Balias.
• 1:19:12
  Ridwan: Some very interesting question for me.
• 1:19:16
  Ridwan: I I'm asking this, what is wrong with you?
• 1:19:19
  Ridwan: I mean, what is is something wrong in your head that make you can produce this kind of art?
• 1:19:27
  Ridwan: I believe that many issues, many variable issue that uh in their head that stimulates to uh produce this kind of work.
• 1:19:39
  Ridwan: Whatever it is.
• 1:19:40
  Ridwan: I'm just curious about it.
• 1:19:41
  Ridwan: And we rarely talk rarely talking about it.
• 1:19:44
  Ridwan: Yeah, it's a very interesting topic.
• 1:19:47
  Matt: So what's wrong with you?
• 1:19:51
  Ridwan: What's wrong with me?
• 1:19:52
  Ridwan: No my god, it's let's make another day to answer this.
• 1:19:58
  Matt: Alright, well, thank you for joining me.
• 1:20:00
  Matt: We'll we'll leave it there.
• 1:20:01
  Matt: Um, but I do want an answer to that question, maybe in private.
• 1:20:04
  Matt: But um thank you so much.
• 1:20:06
  Matt: Thank you for thank you for sitting here with me.
• 1:20:08
  Matt: And uh hopefully, I'm sure we'll have many more of these conversations either on the podcast or off the podcast.
• 1:20:13
  Matt: So thank you for being here.
• 1:20:15
  Ridwan: Yeah, thank you for making me finally here.
• 1:20:18
  Ridwan: I'm proud of