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Glamping in the Middle East - Chris Nader · Outdoor Hospitality Podcast: Glamping, STR, Resorts, Unique Stays, RV Parks, RV Resorts & Campgrounds

• 0:07
  Chris Nader: I mean, when we first started speaking about canvas tents, and people ask, oh, so it's like you're like camping and you're sharing the bathroom with different people.
• 0:19
  Chris Nader: But then I was like a villa, like a luxury villa. You know, rates were 300, 400 or 500 pounds a night. And I think there is a big trend towards going back to basics going back to the roots. Going back to nature, understanding the food that you eat, where does it come from? The milk that you drink, where does it come from? During the weekdays, these resorts started getting really full. And I saw most of them being full throughout 2020. There was just unbelievable, and this is continuing until now. And rates jumped even higher than they were before.
• 1:03
  Nick Purslow: Hello, and welcome to the Glampitect podcast.
• 1:06
  Nick Purslow: Before I start talking about today's episode, I want to apologise to anyone who was expecting an episode last week.
• 1:12
  Nick Purslow: We're considering switching up our release schedule at the minute, which is why we skipped last week, and we might not have one out every single week moving forward. It's a work in progress at the minute, but I'll let you know when we settle on a schedule. Now, onto today's episode. It's a bit of a different one for you today, as I'm joined by Chris Nader, who's based in Dubai and is an expert on glamping, eco resorts and all things hospitality in that region and across the wider Middle East. The Middle East is an area of particular interest to Glampitect at the minute as we recently expanded into the region and it's all looking very exciting. I appreciate that this might not be what you UK-based listeners are interested in so I won't be offended if you switch off now. But I do think it's useful to glean what we can from other glamping cultures. I remember speaking to Steph Curtis-Raleigh in a previous episode about how Uk glamping businesses can learn a thing or two from those in the US. And today's along similar lines. For anyone listening from the Middle East, welcome, and I hope you find this valuable. For our loyal UK base, thanks for sticking around and I hope you enjoy.
• 2:04
  Nick Purslow: Hi, Chris, how you doing?
• 2:06
  Chris Nader: Hi, Nick. I'm very well. Thank you.
• 2:08
  Nick Purslow: Thank you for giving up your time and and coming on. Could you just give us a introduction to you your backstory, your career and what you're doing now, please?
• 2:17
  Chris Nader: It's a pleasure being here. And it's probably I think my first podcast. I've been on so many webinars since the beginning of the of the pandemic, but not so much on podcasts. I'm very excited to be to be here. So my name is Chris.
• 2:35
  Chris Nader: I've been in the industry for about 14 years professionally working in it. But from a background standpoint, I come from a family of hoteliers, so we've been a hotel industry for for a few generations. And after completing my MBA from the hotel school in Switzerland it was on I was brought on board by Kempinski Hotels to be part of the birth of new brands called Shaza hotels for the Middle East, focusing on the Middle Eastern market at the luxury level. So my journey started there, creating these amazing hotels, along with a fantastic team, where we had to create you know, everything from from scratch, including positioning, branding, concepts, etc. And then in 2010, I had my first, call it glamping experience. I don't always use that word, because it has different connotations and references in different countries, and different positioning levels.
• 3:43
  Chris Nader: But for the sake of this discussion, let's go with glamping.
• 3:50
  Chris Nader: My first glamping experience was in Switzerland at the White Pods. Really, really cool experience. You know, with private ski slope, you would go up, sit, sit on these boards, you put a log in the fire to keep yourself warm at night and to go down, you know, to the restaurant, you would take a sledge and slide down. So you know, this, this, this whole trend for me and this whole idea of glamping started back then.
• 4:19
  Chris Nader: But it's only until 2018 when I had the opportunity while I was based in the Middle East, have the opportunity to work on an amazing project here in the UAE called the Kingfisher Retreat.
• 4:38
  Chris Nader: And, and really this was my really first hands on glamping experience in the region. And this is how my passion for glamping really, really started.
• 4:54
  Nick Purslow: And so, I mean, we're going to get into a discussion about the glamping market in the Middle East in a minute but I'm just intrigued.
• 4:58
  Nick Purslow: Obviously with your experience in the hotel industry, in your attitude towards glamping and maybe helping start glamping sites, have you taken anything from that experience in hotels into into the glamping? market?
• 5:17
  Chris Nader: Well, look, I wasn't involved really in, in the creation of, of the concept.
• 5:19
  Chris Nader: That project had an owner was was very, you know, involved and very creative. And you know, he's a visionary. And I think he's one of the first to have brought really real luxury glamping experience to the to the region. And we'll maybe we'll speak about the region later on about how it all started, and what are the different types of products available. So I was more involved on the on the deal side, but I can definitely tell you that our the team that that was working with, at that time, tried to bring the best out of luxury hospitality and implemented into an environment that that was very far away from traditional luxury hospitality.
• 6:08
  Chris Nader: I mean, when we first started speaking about canvas tents, and people ask, oh, so it's like, you're like camping, and you're sharing the bathroom with different people. So it's like a villa, like a luxury villa, you know, rates were three, four or 500 pounds a night. And you had to provide the same luxury experience that you find in luxury hotels, especially the comfort side. But of course, not everything fits in that glamping box. And you can't use sometimes in materials, you can't use the same standard operating procedures, you know, you had to create new ones that are adapted to such such a product. Plus, what was very interesting is that the environmental restriction in which such a project was being built, forced the team to be very creative, and try to adjust and adapt and find new ways of operating under these circumstances. So very, very interesting experience that I was involved in about three years ago now.
• 7:18
  Nick Purslow: Okay, well, let's set the scene then, what is the glamping industry like in the Middle East at the minute?
• 7:26
  Chris Nader: That's, you know, I know that in the UK, it's been, it's been a big buzzword for some time. In the Middle East, it started really, I think, last year, I would say just just during the pandemic, just before the pandemic, where the word glamping became, you know, very, very, you know, in different publications and media, and people start speaking about it.
• 7:52
  Chris Nader: Not everyone understands it, but it's been booming. However, all of this, I'm not sure we can call it glamping. But a lot of this started a long, long time ago. I mean, we here in the UAE, we we live in a country where, you know, the culture is of nomads, Bedouins who move and live and dance and move from one place to another, using 10. So obviously, the tent concept, is pretty much native of this region.
• 8:25
  Chris Nader: But about 20 years ago, I would say, we started seeing some very interesting resorts in the deserts. And these are not as tall as glamping. They're actually, you know, concrete constructions with the laws and various types of units. And they became very popular, and some of them had some sort of sustainability elements to them as well. And they became very, very famous, that's been an instant success. And up until now, these resorts that open long time ago are still very, very famous. And then slowly, I would say, again, three years ago, the first few projects that had a glamping element to them started seeing the light here in the UAE, including the northern Emirate of Ras al Khaimah and Sharjah and Dubai. So we start seeing some times we then start seeing some bubbles, some domes and different different levels of of luxury, different level of glam, let's call them with different you know, services as well and that is, but Funny enough, they were instant successes and rates were immediately higher than most five star resorts. So the market kind of immediately picked on on on on these products. And they were not, you know, surprised to pay three, four or 500 pounds a night to go there. Whereas, you know, the normal resorts on the course were struggling to get 200 pounds. But I would say, outside of this UAE market, I guess the most remarkable growth and glamping projects came from Jordan, before the UAE, and specifically in what Iran and the desert where we start seeing so many dorms and tents, and these, you know, very and bubbles, very nice sexy projects, via Instagram and amazing photos. So I would say, this is where it really started from a Middle East standpoint.
• 10:56
  Nick Purslow: So it sounds like at the minute because it's so new that I mean, if you just put a few tents out there, you can't help but make money. But it sounds like you think that there's potential for a higher standard once as the as the industry matures, there's potential for a higher standard, where it really is a luxury, as opposed to maybe just putting a few canvas tents out in the desert.
• 11:19
  Chris Nader: Yeah, I would say, you know, if you look at the UAE, and this is probably one of the most established market for for glamping at the moment, and we can speak about Saudi Arabia later on. But if you look at the UAE, different Emirates have positioned themselves at different levels of luxury and want to attract different types of markets. Some are more on the adventure side. Others are more on the glamour and luxury, the others are more on the, you know, exploration and cultural side. So there's definitely a market for different kinds of levels of luxury. Now, one of the biggest strengths is really to go grow, you know, nature survival mode in these camps.
• 12:08
  Chris Nader: And others just wanted to be more and more luxurious. So at the moment, we have quite a diverse offering here in the region. And Abu Dhabi also started picking up this trend.
• 12:22
  Chris Nader: And we saw the birth of three projects very quickly, one of them in ..., which consists of some geodesic domes, and other one by the beach, also with drones. And the third one that opened recently during the pandemic was, you know, canvas tents from prominent European manufacturer. And they're all around, you know, from 200 to 500 pounds. So there is this diversity. And we're lucky here in the UAE that, you know, people who live here and work here and who are interested in such a leisure, this experience, have a high propensity to spend, because you know that they earn decent money. We're lucky in this part of the world that we don't, we don't pay taxes, income taxes. So it gives them even additional income to spend on these experiences. So I don't mind going with those luxury glamping projects, but I believe there is a needs at the moment to create more of those high end products. People are just you know, setup of going to mainstream resorts. First of all, these resorts are mostly on the coasts of the UAE where most of us live. So when you go there on a staycation you don't really feel like you run on holidays, you're still sitting in your background, then you're in your backyard, in your backyard, somehow. So, you know, taking people up on a mountain, you know, down in the desert, giving them this luxury experiencing many people who would be interested to go to such places.
• 14:14
  Nick Purslow: Nice and how does the market work exactly? What I'm thinking here are two things. One, the target marketm is it a particular kind of person or family that goes glamping in it over there. And two, is it seasonal? Because as far as I'm aware, I know UAE tends to, am I right in thinking that a lot of people just just leave in the summer because it gets so hot? So yeah, target market and seasonality if you could give give some info on that please.
• 14:42
  Chris Nader: Yeah, I mean, I mean the market is definitely seasonal. And you know we have a very good season between, I would say mid October, to just about now, middle of April. I think this is a really good season with with really high occupancy on on the weekends, and we have many holidays as well, which, which is very good, we get the best of both worlds, we have the Middle Eastern holidays, we have the European holidays, we cannot combine everything here, so so these projects tend to work very well during the weekends during the season. And then temperatures start rising above, you know, 40-45 degrees Celsius in summer.
• 15:28
  Chris Nader: If you're in the desert, it's gonna be very difficult to attract guests during the summer season. I mean, obviously, the number one condition for you is to have a private pool, that is temperature control. If the pool is not temperature control, it's like jumping in a Jacuzzi. And it's not what you want.
• 15:54
  Nick Purslow: So I can't help but laugh how this is just the complete opposite of the UK.
• 15:56
  Nick Purslow: Miserable outside the summer. I don't think we'd ever have to worry about the pools getting too hot in the UK.
• 16:08
  Chris Nader: Here, to be able to cool those pools and, and and, and in winter, actually, you have to heat them as well. And the desert gets pretty cold and we need to heat the pool and winter and cold them and summer because of that spread in temperature. So it also gives us an additional consideration from a technical standpoint as to you know, you're in the middle of nowhere in the desert. How do you heat and cool those pools?
• 16:37
  Chris Nader: Do you use, you know generators that cost a fortune. You're not connected to the municipality grid. So you need to look at, you know, independent energy sources. And investors, they're getting more and more onto the renewable energy and sustainability part. But they're still not there are a lot of questions about Oh, do I have to invest so much at the beginning?
• 17:00
  Chris Nader: And is it worth it? And how's my return on investment on such a renewable energy? So many of the groups and the investors are slowly adopting them, but it's that there's still, you know, some some work to be done. So, so that's the answer a little bit.
• 17:17
  Chris Nader: Your question on on seasonality.
• 17:17
  Chris Nader: With regards to the target market, we're seeing a very large target types that are coming to those projects. On weekends, we see some of those glamping projects that focus mainly on families, and are providing those family friendly activities and experiences which were very nice town weekends and holidays. Others are more on the adult side. So some of the projects would only allow adults to come to the to the resort to glamping site. And during, during the week before COVID many were struggling to attract a consistent market during weekdays. So obviously, we had international tourists that were coming. And these would fill your weekdays, we also had some business that comes from companies where some team building activities or board meetings etc, where people just want to go on remote locations.
• 18:30
  Chris Nader: But you know, weekdays were slow.
• 18:32
  Chris Nader: What happened when COVID started is that people discovered that they could work from anywhere, you know, that had the technology before but suddenly it took COVID for them to realise that actually, I don't need to be sitting in a boring office, but I can be by the beach in a beautiful tent while you know, my my family is even here around me, they can play and I can work you know, having this amazing view. So during the weekdays, these resorts started getting really full. And I saw most of them being full throughout 2020. It was just unbelievable and this is continuing until now. And rates jumped even higher than they were before. So you had many resorts here on the coast of the UAE trying to fight for that market and offering all inclusive and upgrades and discounts and many things and the glamping sites were just Nope. We have limited inventory.
• 19:33
  Chris Nader: We have very high rates. I know that this is where you want to be because you're in a secluded area you're gonna see other guests so they stick to their rates. And it was a great strategy because they were full and made a lot of money.
• 19:53
  Nick Purslow: And in terms of the potential in the of the industry, I'd say the UK is is mature now, you know, it's recognised in the UK. Everyone knows about glamping. And you know, more and more people are coming to the market because they can see the potential of it. And how do you see the industry going over there? Do you think it will, you know, grow to a point where it could even challenge like that, you know, that or the hotels over there? Or do you think it will be niche? What What do you see the future of it in that in that
• 20:25
  Chris Nader: So, so, recently, I've been advising investors in regard?
• 20:30
  Chris Nader: the region, on how to invest in, you know, equal resorts and sustainability. And, you know, this is something that I think will be booming in the region and the near future. And, you know, every government here in the Middle East is really addressing, the GCC was really pushing investors to go down the sustainability route. So the first step was for governments to put eco strategy in place, especially on eco tourism, to move away from this machine of hotels that were being built, left, right and centre at a super high pace since the early 2000s. Now saying, Okay, let's stop and, and see, you know, how we're going to shift our construction and positioning and investment into some something that is more sustainable. So they started more and more getting interested, and eco resorts, eco lodges, retreats, remote locations, that the word glamping is not recognised in the investment industry, at least not in the majority of investors that I'm talking to.
• 21:52
  Chris Nader: So the moment you speak about let's do, let's put some things out in the desert. They're saying, oh, okay, then this is a, you know, very cheap investment, we can get a decent rate, and we're going to have a very high ROI.
• 22:09
  Chris Nader: If, if you apply the definition or the trend of glamping, in the UK, I assume that is more oriented towards camping with the glam element to it. We're not talking about luxury resorts like Amman and these kinds of brand. It's really more on the entry level type of experience.
• 22:30
  Chris Nader: And you know, the glam comes from the fact that you have your own bathroom, probably and you have like decent comfort. I don't think this is what investors are looking for here in the region. I think their definition of glamping is more often, luxury eco Lodge, closer to what you would see in the Maldives, for instance, or some of the amazing projects that for season has done with Canvas, you know, Amman as well and in the US. So, you know, they're more keen on seeing very large units where you have a lot of comfort, or big families here that go on holidays, private pool is important. And we're not talking about the small jacuzzi plunge pool, you know, they need this and size. pools. Privacy is very important. So you cannot today develop a project and a small plot of land. You know, whether it's the desert, the beach for the mountain, you need a lot of land to be able to create the privacy that people want.
• 23:40
  Chris Nader: Because the last thing you want is to have your units that are surrounded by walls to create privacy. So you feel like you're trapped between the wall and that's defeats the whole purpose of glamping. Glamping is supposed to bring nature inside your recommendation. So to create natural privacy using sand dunes and trees and bushes and whatever, you need a lot of space and to be able to get a lot of space, the land will cost more. You know, you have to increase your prices, this supports a higher investment.
• 24:16
  Chris Nader: There's a whole mentality behind it. That is I think, maybe different from other parts of the world when it comes to glamping.
• 24:25
  Nick Purslow: Yeah and you've mentioned government investment there. The governments do tend to get involved over that. I think there are some public development projects that the Saudi government are looking at doing. What's the state of play over there for that?
• 24:38
  Chris Nader: Yeah, this has been really, you know, supporting the industry and supporting investors to go down this sustainability and glamping routes a lot. So, you know, the three main markets here, let's say you have the UAE, Saudi Arabia, And these two and if you split the UAE between the various Emirates each of the emirate has a very strong equal tourism strategy. And to support the ecotourism strategy, they have created some specific entities and funds that promotes investment in ecological glamping and sustainability. Abu Dhabi has the Abu Dhabi Investment Office, or is clearly pushing investors to come along with the tourism authorities to invest in sustainable resorts.
• 25:34
  Chris Nader: The same with Dubai, the same Ras al Khaimah.
• 25:40
  Chris Nader: But I think, as you said, the biggest one probably came from Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia as part of their vision 2030, they decided to obviously diversify away from oil economy. And tourism was a very important part of that vision of that new strategy. And within tourism, they did something amazing, which was like a big shift from what was happening in the past is they invested every single project that is seeing the light, and Saudi and we have so many of those big projects. One key component of all of them is sustainability. So what they did is create a tourism development fund, TDF, to support Saudi investors, and financing projects, provided they contribute to vision 2030, meaning they are sustainable.
• 26:41
  Chris Nader: They create, they increase tourism into the country. And also, which was very interesting, they wanted to get away from the main markets and the main cities and try to support secondary cities and remote locations and remote populations by creating, you know, employment opportunities, and attract tourists. They have some amazing, you know, sites across the country, whether its heritage, whether its nature, mountain, deserts, amazing beaches, you know, on the Red Sea. So there are many opportunities to create some very high end lapping projects there. And that Tourism Development Fund has been very great supporter of, of the Saudi investors to go down this route.
• 27:31
  Nick Purslow: And when you say sustainability, what are there anything specifically that they focus on? So are they looking at using renewable renewable energy sources? Or long land lasting canvas structures? What what specifically are they looking for in the sustainable element?
• 27:47
  Chris Nader: They're really trying to be extremely sustainable on all fronts.
• 27:50
  Chris Nader: Really, they're not taking this lightly. It's not like just remove, you know, plastic straws or single use plastic. It's really about water, it's about, you know, the natural resources, it's about renewable energy. You know, they have so much sun all year round that, you know, using that source. And, and they're partnering with, you know, worldwide organisations and big companies around the world, to bring sustainable resources and solutions to the kingdom, there is also a lot about protecting the heritage. There is a lot happening about protecting wildlife, as well, and reintroducing wildlife in so many areas, especially some of the endangered species. So I think they've been doing a great job. So far, everything that has been really happening in Saudi is at the very luxury level. No one asked me why this is a long conversation, but the image of tourism and Saudis based on luxury tourism, and this is how Dubai was also established several years ago. And now it's slowly shifting to, you know, attracting a wider spectrum of tourists, to the Emirates. But as you know, you can't rely only on luxury tourists to meet your objectives.
• 29:22
  Nick Purslow: So clearly, sustainability is going to be a key trend in in that region moving forwards and it sounds like luxury as well. Are there any other trends that you can see emerging in the glamping slash eco resort market in the Middle East?
• 29:36
  Chris Nader: Yeah, we're seeing also a lot of interest from investors and from the market as well into agritourism. And, you now, here they have many farms nd especially when it comes to ou know, date processing farms nd and I think there is a big rend towards going back to asics going back to the roots, oing back to nature nderstanding, you know, the ood that you eat, where does it ome from? The milk that you rink, where does it come from, nd families here and including ocal families and tourists as ell. And experts are all kind f keen to show the new eneration and their kids that, ou know, milk doesn't come of the shelves of supermarkets, bu this is where it actually co es from. So they're trying to de elop a lot of the farmlands he e towards educational ex eriences for families, su rounding agriculture and, and animals. And, you know, I thi k we're going to be seeing mor projects glamping projects tha would be implemented in suc a, in such an environment.
• 30:56
  Nick Purslow: Okay, thank you.
• 30:56
  Nick Purslow: And if anyone wants to find out more about the developments in that region, and they want to hear from you about it, where should they go for that?
• 31:08
  Chris Nader: Yeah, please get in touch with me on my LinkedIn page. Chris Nader. I'd love to h lp you on answer, been doing a lot of consultancy and advising many investors in the region.
• 31:22
  Chris Nader: And I've been I've been working here for many, many years. So happy to be of any help for both local investors from the Middle East and any UK investors were keen to come to the region to to develop nothing projects.
• 31:36
  Nick Purslow: Perfect. Well, thank you for giving up your time and coming on.
• 31:39
  Chris Nader: Thank you very much.
• 31:41
  Nick Purslow: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Glampitect podcast. I hope you enjoyed and that you found value in today's episode. If you did, feel free to leave a rating or review on Apple podcasts because it really helps us move up the podcast rankings. Thank you.