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The Power of Perseverance: Healing, Identity, and Transformation · Kaleidoscope - Perspectives Beyond The Surface

• 0:05
  Hello, dear listeners. Welcome to Kaleidoscope.
• 0:10
  My name is Ruby Ray Lio and today I am joined
• 0:15
  by my co -host Luigi and Nicole Alexander, Director
• 0:22
  of Fried Shelter Trust, the only LGBTQ shelter
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  in South Africa. I am Ruby Ray Liu and I am what
• 0:34
  happens when you drive too fast on the highway
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  while thinking about existential problems. Hello,
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  I'm Luigi and I don't understand sesame seeds
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  on bagels. It's just so cumbersome. They just
• 0:50
  always flake off. I hate it. I bought, let me
• 0:53
  tell you, I bought a bag of multigrain bagels
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  and I was excited for it. because of multigrain,
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  just not plain white. But it was all riddled
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  with sesame seeds and stuff. And they just don't
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  fall off. And it's just a mess to clean up. Anyway,
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  that's my beef. Do you think that we're making
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  bagels wrong? And that's why? We've lost the
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  original recipe? I think, no, I think there's
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  just, in late capitalism, such a necessity to...
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  create novelty, that it just makes things even
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  more frustrating and inconvenient. You got to
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  sell your bagels. Oh, let's put some things that
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  fall off on them. And thus we have Sesame Seed
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  covered bagels. Very nice. Nicole, welcome. Thank
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  you. Oh, my goodness. I'm holding my loft here.
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  But yeah, very interesting thought, Luigi. And
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  I love bagels, actually. So I've been looking
• 1:58
  at it very differently now. Sure. I love adrenaline,
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  like speed and motorbikes. But the funny story
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  is I don't drive. But that adrenaline of just
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  speed for me is just, yeah, that's something
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  that does to my soul that is just like, oh, and
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  then when you get off that high, it's like, okay,
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  I've done it. you know but I don't even drive
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  I don't even sit behind a wheel I don't even
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  go on a motorbike and I have my reasons why but
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  that's just the adrenaline of just seeing that
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  speed for me is like oh okay this is what life
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  is about but then afterwards it's also just the
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  chill moment the moment of just relaxing and
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  just saying oh I made it through you know But
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  yeah, it's just a wild thought that I sometimes
• 2:56
  just look at life in that way. But yeah, this
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  is who I am. Thinking of really weird things,
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  but also like how we can incorporate it to your
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  own journey. Nicole Alexander has a parasocial
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  relationship with adrenaline and speed. Motorbikes.
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  And random motorbikes. Yeah. And just watching
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  them. Excellent. Do you just like sit in a lawn
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  chair on the road and just watch them go by?
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  Yeah. It's wild. It's wild. That's pretty cool.
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  That's what I want to talk about today. So let's
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  keep that in mind. Put a pin in that. Write it
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  down. Really good. All right. Well, okay. Well,
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  yeah. Nicole, you have a perspective, opinion,
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  something to share with us today. Well, I should
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  actually say today we are talking about the idea,
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  the concept of perseverance. Not right. And I'd
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  like to invite you to lead the way. Sure. Okay.
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  Wow. This theme and just the conversations, it's
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  deep. It's not like an everyday cup of tea conversations,
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  but it's also just what we as an organization,
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  but also myself, my own personal story is how
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  do you shift from a state of emergency and survival
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  to one of long -term healing and genuine living.
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  And I think that for me is where the resilience
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  and the perseverance come in, is understanding
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  where you are right now and acknowledging how
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  far you've come. Because a lot of my own personal
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  story was understanding what I needed to go through
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  to get to a point where I needed healing for
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  myself. why I needed to understand what makes
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  me call Nicole despite what society has said
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  to me or the way I was brought up in the family
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  and around religious beliefs specifically is
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  taking those values, but not adding all of them,
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  but making it your own so that one day I'm able
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  to teach it and able to fully love. That's the
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  thing about undiscovering who you are, is once
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  you discover that either potential or your values,
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  you are able to live into it fully. And it takes
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  a while to get there. Not everybody is able or
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  open to that healing process. And I think that
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  is where the perseverance and the resilience
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  come in, is how willing are we as human beings?
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  as human beings willing to fully go through that
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  process work of healing. And this is the crux
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  of our work, is taking an individual and understanding
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  their story, but also meeting them where they're
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  at. Because to understand this individual in
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  terms of and I'm going to take it back to my
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  own story is before I started this work, my background
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  is community work, but specifically around youth,
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  young people in South Africa and myself being
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  part of the youth bracket. I wanted to do things
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  differently. I wanted to challenge things that
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  I needed to understand because what was relevant
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  for me when I was younger, it's not relevant.
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  Some of the things not relevant to me today.
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  But that's all part of the growth process. If
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  nothing has changed, you didn't grow. If nothing
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  has changed in my life, I didn't grow. And what
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  did I do in that time? So I needed to, for myself
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  to understand what it means to go through that
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  healing process and come up on the other side
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  and saying, look, This is my intentions. This
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  is my mission. This is my calling. And how am
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  I going to make this happen? Not just for myself,
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  because what I do is not for me. It's for the
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  people that come after me. It's for the young
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  people that comes after me. But there's lessons
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  that I can teach. I can't teach something I haven't
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  gone through. And this is kind of the culture
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  that we... Yeah, we practice at the shelter from
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  the team to the board that we walk the talk.
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  And if we see that someone is struggling and
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  we ask what's happening, yes, the work's important,
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  but as a leader, as someone who has a mission
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  to shift things in society and challenge things
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  in society, we as a team need to go through those
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  growing pains, if you want to put it that way.
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  um and yeah persevering and and and sacrificing
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  um is part of the process so for us it's important
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  to know what is our intentions what is our goals
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  what are we trying to achieve because if one
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  has that um clearly set out the rest of the thing
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  the rest of what the universe does You would
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  just end up seeing things happening when we start
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  to meet new people that want to support the work.
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  In my own story, part of my healing was I needed
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  to go for therapy. And just on that point around
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  therapy, before when I was a teenager, right
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  into university, I never understood the importance
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  of mental health. I never understood um what
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  it means to fully heal um from from words or
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  from actions from people that didn't value my
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  existence and that's where my own narrative needed
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  to change um so it was getting you know new information
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  and and and meeting new people and that allowed
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  me to shift my thinking um but it was all in
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  line to working towards the bigger picture, the
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  bigger intention, the bigger goal. And from there,
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  once I realized, okay, this is what I was going
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  to do, this is what I needed to do, I now had
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  a clear set plan of how I can need to act with
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  people, especially people that are supporting
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  our work. Part of the resilience and the perseverance,
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  we also speak about transformation. transformation
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  that has an element of enduring those growing
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  pains. So it's about reshaping and rebuilding
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  and recreating your story, reclaiming your story,
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  reclaiming your narrative, reclaiming your identity,
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  reclaiming what your future is going to look
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  like or what your present is currently looking
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  like. And we do it. And the way that we intentionally
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  do it is around active process of transformation.
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  And that means that it's important that we operate
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  from a people -orientated approach. So when someone
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  steps into our space, we ask you, what are your
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  pronouns? In what room do you want to sleep in?
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  Because that also creates this element of dignity
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  and restoring what it means to be kind. to each
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  other. Simple activities, simple ways of interacting
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  as people, but this is what we lost. This is
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  what people have lost because of what society
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  has said, because of what people have placed
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  the LGBT community in a box. And you're allowed
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  to do this, you're not allowed to do that. But
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  for us, our core focus around that transformation
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  is around reclaiming your story, embracing your
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  identity, and building what your new future looks
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  like. So yeah, I can say more, but I also want
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  to hear what we, if you've got add on to what
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  I've just currently said, because I also want
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  to go into what we call the art of presence,
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  but in trauma -informed care. And that goes more
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  into the details of how we work with our residents.
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  But applying it to my own life, 100%. I practice
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  what I preach and I learn along the way and that
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  in essence, that's how we are supposed to interact
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  as human beings. And this is what we teach our
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  residents. Yes, they add a shelter, but don't
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  let the space define what your story is. We are
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  just here as a catalyst. to um to guide you and
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  and to kind of say look it was okay that you're
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  going through this it's okay that you know stuff
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  has happened and here's another way of looking
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  at your situation here's another way of tackling
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  your challenges because eventually they're going
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  to have to leave the shelter and face similar
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  challenges um so it's getting ready with the
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  tools that or the new tools that they've gotten
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  and say look this is how i am And no matter what
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  the world says or do, I have new weapons of how
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  I can tackle these challenges. And these tools
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  are not created to create division. It's about,
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  again, the tools. Firstly, it's around who am
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  I as an individual. So we tackle elements around
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  development. So what it means to be human. Take
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  it back to basics. What does it mean to be a
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  person in this world? What does it mean to exist
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  in this world? And how do we connect that element
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  to nature? So we use nature also as a tool for
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  healing. Because there's always connections.
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  Nature can teach us different tools of how we
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  can heal. It can also teach us things about how
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  to take care of ourselves, how to take care of
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  others, and also how to let go. So nature also
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  goes through this process of the different seasons.
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  So as people, what season are you in right now?
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  What do I need to let go of that has served me
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  anymore, you know? Yeah. I think Ray, I lost
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  Ray here. Oh, there you are. It's just a little
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  echo. I'm yearning. I'm okay. I want to know.
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  What was your turning point? Was there a moment
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  in your life that went from, I've been doing
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  - Wow. I think if you've met me four years ago,
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  five years ago, I was in that space. The shifting.
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  Okay. So yes, I was. It was actually when I started
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  at Pride Shelter. Coming into the space, coming
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  into the sector. around homelessness, specifically
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  working with the LGBT community. I came in very
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  naive and I came in with a mindset of, oh, there's
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  rainbows and unicorns and love is love and there's
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  no hate in the world. But in reality, in this
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  country, it was the total opposite. And being
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  a person, a queer person in South Africa, it
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  was a huge shock because That's not how the world
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  should operate but I was in my own bubble and
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  and life just gave me so many lessons Firstly
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  is was understanding the sector needed. I need
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  to understand What is homelessness? What does
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  it mean? Looking for research that's available
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  in South Africa around homelessness looking for
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  research that's available around homelessness
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  specifically for the LGBT community and it was
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  a struggle for me to find some sort of starting
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  point. And at that time, the organization was
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  also at a stage of transitioning from previous
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  management into new management. So there was
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  a lot going on. But at the same time, we were
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  also hit with COVID. And that for me was my breaking
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  point. It was just a moment. It's like if one
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  more thing just lands on my plate. I'm going
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  to die. That's how bad it was. But I needed to
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  understand that I needed to be okay to lead this
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  organization. I needed to understand what am
• 17:13
  I still holding onto that I'm not able to move
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  forward? What am I not seeing that other people
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  are seeing, but this work still needs to continue?
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  I went on... There was a moment where I resigned
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  because I wasn't getting any support from the
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  board back then. I was like, I can't do this
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  alone and I'm not getting any support from people
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  that brought me in to do this work. And I said,
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  I'm done, I'm finished. And the moment I did
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  that, I think everybody just got a wake up call
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  because who's going to lead and... run this organization
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  if management is going, you know, and this is
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  such important work that I was like, I can do
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  it somewhere else. But deep down in my soul,
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  I was like, okay, maybe I'm just being tested,
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  you know, maybe I need to just stay a little
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  bit and just stick it out. But something profound
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  really happened in those meetings. with the board
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  and I was just like, if things don't change on
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  this level, I can do something else. Because
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  at that stage in my life, I was also ready to
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  leave South Africa and do community work in another
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  country, but also the safety in this country
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  was just getting too much. And then I didn't
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  feel the support. But then between 2021 and 2022,
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  I made a decision, okay, let me just take a little
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  bit of a break. Let me step back and understand
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  what is my intention coming into this space?
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  What am I going to do? What do I need to let
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  go of? And I had an opportunity to go on a rites
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  of passage, which is also known as a vision quest.
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  But this was also just an experience that I'm
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  very familiar with from my previous work. And
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  this is the process or one of the tools where
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  we use nature for healing and we use nature to
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  reconnect with ourselves. And that process was,
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  for me, a turning point, personally, but also
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  professionally. And it took me on an experiential
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  learning Process where I really had to wait.
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  Yeah, we are really had to unpack What was going
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  on with myself mentally what was going on myself
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  physically spiritually and everything that makes
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  us human what makes me human and letting go because
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  I was sitting with a lot of frustration I was
• 20:12
  sitting with a lot of sadness and I think I was
• 20:16
  going to head into depression because of I said
• 20:21
  a big expectation for this work, but things were
• 20:24
  not going according to plan. So then what the
• 20:27
  universe did, it gave me a big wake -up call.
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  So I needed to re -evaluate a lot of my own values
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  and what makes me me because whatever I'm going
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  to discover about myself, it's going to have
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  to be displayed in the organization. It has to
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  be taught or a mentor or practice, um, within
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  pride shelter. So when I came out of that nine,
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  nine days experience, um, I showed up with an
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  intention and that intention is speaking around,
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  you know, this is who I am. So I am a spiritual,
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  you know, a spiritual woman. I am a leader. Um,
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  I am a person who heals. can be healed so it's
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  being open not just to my own personal story
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  but to the wider context of you know working
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  and contributing to society and the moment I
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  had that clear intention and a clear purpose
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  and I'm like okay now the work's going to start
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  and I kid you not the moment I came back out
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  of the mountains and came back to work things
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  automatically just started falling into place
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  and therefore me I had to also acknowledge the
• 21:47
  staff because they allowed me to go into those
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  spaces of, you know, taking care of myself, taking
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  care of not only what I'm going to contribute
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  to this organization, but the key and the understanding
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  of giving me this time off and recharging. Just
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  saying thank you to them because now that I've
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  come back, I come back with new thinking, I come
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  back with new ideas. So even to this year or
• 22:26
  even whenever I go and leave, the staff always
• 22:30
  make fun of me, saying like, oh, so you have
• 22:33
  new ideas? Now we're going to have more work.
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  But that is just because of just taking a little
• 22:39
  break, stepping back from the work, stepping
• 22:41
  back from the course and saying, okay. Let me
• 22:44
  just re -evaluate. Am I still relevant? Or are
• 22:52
  we still relevant doing this? Oh no. Do you have
• 22:56
  some questions first? I think I need clarification
• 23:00
  with because sometimes I don't pay attention.
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  I know a lot. Ruby knows a lot. She knows a lot
• 23:06
  about Pride Shelter. Yeah, she knows a lot about
• 23:08
  Pride Shelter but I think it's important we ask
• 23:10
  these on camera because maybe the viewers will
• 23:13
  know. So Pride Shelter Trust, not your invention.
• 23:17
  You joined and it's the only one. Not mine. Okay.
• 23:22
  When did it start? So it started in 2011. Okay.
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  And I only started at Pride Shelter in 2019.
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  Right. But before I knew this organization existed.
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  Yeah. Yeah. So how did you discover it? I came
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  through a friend, a friend and a friend. Okay.
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  Um, at the end of 2018, I mean, like I was mentioning
• 23:46
  earlier, and I was ready to leave South Africa
• 23:48
  and just take a little bit of a break. Um, but
• 23:52
  then this opportunity came, well, not Prychalter,
• 23:55
  I was supposed to originally, um, manage a gay
• 24:01
  Muslim organization called the Inner Circle,
• 24:04
  also known as Al -Fitra. And then Al -Fitra Foundation
• 24:08
  took over Pride Shelter in 2018. So when I signed
• 24:12
  up for work, for this work, I didn't know that
• 24:15
  Al -Fitra was part of Pride Shelter. So then
• 24:18
  I couldn't manage two organizations and I had
• 24:21
  to strategically look at, let me work on something
• 24:25
  that's tangible and what people can see. And
• 24:29
  I went for Pride Shelter. So the Muslim Gay Organization,
• 24:34
  is currently on pause. Yeah, so my energy is
• 24:39
  fully invested with Bright Shelter. Fair, yeah,
• 24:43
  okay. I guess, and I guess this is more statistic,
• 24:47
  but what do you think the main reason for LGBT
• 24:52
  people seeking out shelter? Specifically LGBT.
• 24:59
  Well, the people who come to your shelter, what's
• 25:01
  their main reason? Because, you know, I have
• 25:02
  my suspicions based on, you know, what I know,
• 25:05
  like let's say the history of queer people needing
• 25:09
  shelter in America. And I'm just wondering if
• 25:13
  it's the same. So, you know, the main reason
• 25:16
  I find is that, you know, they're kind of abandoned
• 25:22
  by their families when they come out and they've
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  got nowhere else to go. And luckily these shelters,
• 25:28
  Exist and I'm just wondering if the dynamics
• 25:30
  Are the same? Yeah. No, thank you for that question
• 25:34
  So in South Africa because we are so diverse
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  with cultures and traditions And if you're looking
• 25:41
  at the broader African continent same thing very
• 25:45
  diverse different cultures So some of the reasons
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  When I'm speaking for our foreign nationals that
• 25:51
  we serve they come to South Africa. They run
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  for their lives They run because they came up
• 25:57
  to their families and they're going to be killed
• 26:00
  by their families. That's one of the major reasons
• 26:02
  our foreign nationals come to South Africa. But
• 26:05
  also with the hope of they will receive safety
• 26:08
  in South Africa because of our constitution that
• 26:11
  protects us as LGBT, well supposed to protect
• 26:14
  us as LGBT community. When I look at South Africans,
• 26:21
  Similar story running for your life because of
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  you know violence within family and because it's
• 26:28
  not accepted religious beliefs and traditions
• 26:32
  And and people just wanting to have a sense of
• 26:36
  belonging so we have Individuals that has been
• 26:41
  shelter hopping and just wanting to feel safe
• 26:44
  not just at home, but because they wanting to
• 26:50
  find a reason to exist. So shelter hopping, going
• 26:54
  from one shelter to the next, there's no other
• 26:57
  shelter that speaks about, you know, how to,
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  that there's no other shelter here that would
• 27:05
  ask you, okay, so what room would you want to
• 27:08
  be, what you want to sleep in or how do you identify
• 27:11
  as? It's traditionally male, female. The other
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  reasons that we've had is people wanting to live
• 27:25
  in their full potential, but because of the homophobic
• 27:31
  and just exclusion from society, that they're
• 27:36
  so discouraged that they don't want to grow further.
• 27:43
  They've just been knocked down with so many rejection.
• 27:46
  that they just give up and that would lead to
• 27:48
  suicide and that would lead to ending up homeless.
• 27:51
  That would lead to surviving on the streets and
• 27:55
  just getting by. So yeah, that's the main reasons
• 28:01
  why people come to the shelter. One of the things
• 28:04
  that I have always wondered is if somebody finds
• 28:09
  himself on the street, some place that I have
• 28:12
  felt myself potentially close to being within
• 28:19
  the last two years. How do they find you? Because
• 28:24
  I had the resources to look, right? I am not
• 28:29
  in a place of poverty or desperation. But if
• 28:36
  you are, if you lose your phone, if you don't
• 28:39
  have access to the internet, How does this happen
• 28:46
  to find someone? So we depend a lot on referrals,
• 28:53
  so we don't just take from the street and recruit.
• 28:57
  So it's important for us to go through a referral
• 28:59
  process. And specifically for those who don't
• 29:03
  have technology access to sending us an email
• 29:07
  or WhatsApp, the government... which is the Department
• 29:11
  of Social Development, which is one of our partners,
• 29:15
  is going to their offices and explaining a situation
• 29:19
  and they would refer them to us because they
• 29:20
  have their own screening process. And the first
• 29:24
  thing we'll ask, do they belong to the LGBT community?
• 29:29
  If it's not through government, it will be through
• 29:30
  our other partners, other queer organizations
• 29:34
  that work with individuals. with the queer individuals.
• 29:40
  And again, same process. You apply to get into
• 29:44
  the space because it's so limited. And in the
• 29:47
  social worker, she has to do a screening and
• 29:50
  an interview because she has to understand what
• 29:53
  is she going to work with for the next three
• 29:55
  months because that's the period how long you
• 29:57
  stay at the shelter. And not only that, she also
• 30:00
  has to be aware of the safety of the other people
• 30:03
  in the house when taking on a new person. So
• 30:08
  yeah, it's referrals, it's word of mouth. And
• 30:12
  for those that have what we've experienced, especially
• 30:16
  in the rural areas and spaces where, you know,
• 30:20
  technology is a challenge. If people are in need,
• 30:26
  in desperate need, they would make, they would
• 30:28
  go to the ends of the earth, even walking. So
• 30:30
  we've had people that Either borrowed money to
• 30:33
  get to the shelter or simple for example our
• 30:37
  foreign nationals Fleeing from either Ghana or
• 30:40
  Tanzania or any of these countries coming to
• 30:42
  Cape Town specifically and if you hear this story
• 30:45
  like My problem is so small. You know, like the
• 30:49
  hurdles that and and all of that and then Yeah,
• 30:54
  so so for us is important that the referral system
• 30:58
  is in place because of our limited space that
• 31:02
  we have available. On the other hand, of how
• 31:06
  we flip that script is challenging shelters that's
• 31:10
  been operating for the last 20 years the same.
• 31:14
  Changing your policy according to the constitution
• 31:17
  because as a shelter, as a private shelter, we
• 31:20
  cannot do this alone. How long are you going
• 31:22
  to operate, you know, male -female? How long
• 31:26
  are you going to operate from a point of recycling
• 31:30
  homelessness, allowing people to come back to
• 31:32
  the system. And what do they learn? What have
• 31:34
  they learned? So yeah, I hope I'm answering your
• 31:39
  question. There's more to unpack there. I have
• 31:42
  a lot more questions. So you've mentioned a couple
• 31:46
  of times male -female space, which is obviously
• 31:48
  quite close to my heart, not because I actually
• 31:54
  face adversity. Um, where we are for me, it's
• 31:59
  very easy to, um, go to the right bathroom for
• 32:05
  instance. And you mentioned, um, where, when
• 32:10
  somebody comes into the, into the shelter, you
• 32:14
  ask them which room they want to sleep in. And
• 32:17
  I'm not asking this for me. I'm asking this for
• 32:20
  the listener who might be. questioning from a
• 32:25
  place of fear about men in women's spaces, very
• 32:32
  big inverted commas. How do you find that narrative
• 32:38
  affecting the people within the shelter and maybe
• 32:43
  from others? shelters that you speak to, to try
• 32:47
  and change their policy to be more gender inclusive.
• 32:51
  Sure. How do I answer this? That's a big one.
• 32:58
  I think it all comes back to what is the culture
• 33:03
  and the ethos of what you practice in your workspace.
• 33:11
  So for us as a team, it's important that we create
• 33:15
  that safe container where we create just that
• 33:23
  energy of saying, oh, people here. So it's important
• 33:29
  for us as a team to be constantly trained into
• 33:33
  not being judgmental. What does it mean to be
• 33:37
  people -orientated? What does it mean when someone
• 33:39
  is experiencing a crisis? So for us as a team,
• 33:44
  for me specifically, it's operating from a point
• 33:48
  of calmness and non -judgmental and realizing,
• 33:52
  just working with people and with their fears
• 33:54
  and this is where their story is right now. And
• 33:58
  it comes back to that thing of meeting people
• 34:01
  where they're at. So if I put myself in this
• 34:06
  story is, During that years of when I had a little
• 34:11
  bit of a mental breakdown, I went for therapy,
• 34:14
  but I went to the government facilities because
• 34:16
  it's free. And the psychologist that was supposed
• 34:22
  to hear my story, my first question was, which
• 34:25
  I was just like shocked. They asked me, what
• 34:27
  does LGBT stand for? And that for me was not
• 34:32
  only shocking, but that was 2003. And I'm sitting
• 34:39
  in that office and I'm like, I want to share
• 34:41
  what's on my heart and how I'm feeling. But this
• 34:43
  person doesn't even know what LGBT stands for.
• 34:46
  And I left the room. And then I have to think
• 34:49
  about what residents have to go through when
• 34:51
  they access these government spaces or spaces
• 34:54
  where you're supposed to feel safe, where you're
• 34:56
  supposed to feel like you belong. And I just
• 35:00
  left. And that is where I was like, what? If
• 35:06
  we're going to focus on psychosocial support
• 35:08
  at this organization, this is not what I want
• 35:11
  our residents to experience. And if they do access
• 35:15
  our government facilities or facilities that's
• 35:18
  free, we can challenge it in a way that it's
• 35:22
  not going to be defensive, but in a way where
• 35:25
  we can skill people, where we can skill our health
• 35:29
  care system, where we can skill our partners
• 35:32
  that run shelters. um because it's just a bit
• 35:37
  of new information it's just like hey come on
• 35:39
  we're not we're not living here in in in in the
• 35:44
  years of you know not having access we've got
• 35:47
  loads of access but who is who's who's more who
• 35:51
  has um the privilege to access that information
• 35:55
  and and resources so that for me Was where we
• 36:02
  had to create what does it mean as a team to
• 36:04
  create that safe container for our residents?
• 36:08
  Is showing them that respect we respect ourselves.
• 36:11
  This is how we show respect to you Because once
• 36:15
  they leave the shelter They have to understand
• 36:18
  this is what it means to be human again, you
• 36:20
  know Yes, you're going and we're going to be
• 36:22
  challenged with for example the the bathroom
• 36:26
  situation That's constantly going to happen once
• 36:30
  they go to work. And do you want to cause a scene
• 36:37
  because of you can't go into that bathroom, but
• 36:40
  let's challenge what the system has put you in.
• 36:44
  The system can be changed. I think it's because
• 36:47
  of the fear of not having the support because
• 36:51
  it's only you alone. And if you have backup,
• 36:55
  the right backup. the backup that's going to
• 36:57
  make the right noise. I'm not here to break things
• 37:00
  down. I'm not here to, you know, burn a tire.
• 37:02
  Well, that people do that, but there's creative
• 37:05
  ways of to get your message across. And there's
• 37:09
  new information that you can challenge the system.
• 37:14
  So that is what we teach. That is what we, yeah,
• 37:19
  we try to just shift a little bit of that mindset.
• 37:25
  Yeah. Yeah. I think Naweiji definitely has a
• 37:29
  few more questions. Yeah, not so, not so... Actually,
• 37:34
  no, I do have, I do have, okay. So earlier you
• 37:38
  mentioned that, you know, you said change equals,
• 37:41
  you know, change equals, you said change equals
• 37:46
  growth, but I have to wonder, does all change
• 37:49
  really equal growth, even bad change? Or is it...
• 37:53
  Do you think that or lord do both of you think
• 37:55
  that you know, you have to make an active choice
• 37:58
  to look for I Guess the growth in that change
• 38:03
  there's something bad happens to you. I know
• 38:06
  people might say when you're in bad situations
• 38:09
  that You know, yes, you do go through growth
• 38:13
  but I don't know. I don't, I don't think that's
• 38:17
  always the case. No, you're absolutely right.
• 38:19
  You're absolutely right. And I think that's up
• 38:22
  to, you know, up to the individual because whatever
• 38:29
  choice you have, whatever choice you make, you
• 38:33
  got to live with the consequences, whether good
• 38:35
  or bad. Um, and this is just my own experience
• 38:40
  is that whatever choice I've made, I have to
• 38:42
  know that I'm going to live with it. I cannot
• 38:44
  blame the next person because I know that I made
• 38:47
  that decision based on XYZ. And I made a lot
• 38:51
  of bad decisions, you know, but it's always for
• 38:54
  me to find, yes, I've gone through that shitty
• 38:57
  moment, sorry for my language, but what did I
• 39:00
  learn out of that? Sorry, I don't know. Yeah,
• 39:06
  I don't want to use too much. Okay. I'm a good
• 39:13
  boy. I don't swear on camera. I've caught him
• 39:17
  only once on camera. Yeah, and she should have
• 39:21
  taken it up. Oh my goodness. No, but like what
• 39:30
  I'm saying is that I've made a lot of shitty
• 39:33
  decisions and I had to live with it. But for
• 39:36
  me, what I've learned and what I've been guided
• 39:40
  by, mentors and people that I kind of look up
• 39:43
  to is that there's always tiny lessons or something
• 39:47
  that you can take from it. And I'm speaking just
• 39:51
  from a point of, you know, where I'm at in my
• 39:55
  own growth journey. Yes, every day is not the
• 39:59
  same, but I think because of that intention that
• 40:02
  I had set up, you know, years back, making decisions
• 40:07
  now, and responding to those consequences based
• 40:14
  on their decisions, I can respond to it differently.
• 40:19
  Whereas before if I didn't go through my healing
• 40:21
  process, I will still be angry and frustrated
• 40:24
  and burn things and say the most things and it's
• 40:27
  an ugly side of me that I was living in. So for
• 40:31
  me it's just flipping that script and saying
• 40:34
  I don't want to operate from a point of frustration,
• 40:36
  you know. And not everybody can get to that point.
• 40:41
  And it's a journey every day. The intention is
• 40:46
  saying, okay, I know I'm going to have to make
• 40:49
  a decision somehow or somewhere or the other.
• 40:52
  Am I willing to live with that consequences,
• 40:54
  whether good or bad? I think there's a point
• 41:01
  where change is coming from yourself. And that
• 41:09
  change is good when you make the active choice.
• 41:12
  But I also think there is a space where change
• 41:18
  happens to you. And because of that change, you
• 41:23
  go into a bad space. And from that perspective,
• 41:29
  maybe it's not good. The question is, is there...
• 41:32
  Is there growth? Something bad happens to you,
• 41:35
  you're forced to change. Is that a kind of growth?
• 41:40
  Even if it's negative? Yes, I would agree. I
• 41:44
  would agree. That's growth because what I define
• 41:51
  as growth, you might not agree. What you define
• 41:53
  as growth, I might not agree. But it's not for
• 41:57
  me to, whatever your story is around that, it's
• 42:03
  not for me to judge it. And I think that is where
• 42:06
  the disconnect or the misunderstanding comes
• 42:10
  in. You know what I mean? Your story is your
• 42:14
  story. My story is my story. When you put it
• 42:16
  that way, it becomes a question of paying attention
• 42:19
  to good or bad. Kind of like justifying growth
• 42:24
  if it's good and not if it's bad. Because, I
• 42:27
  don't know, let's take a plant for example. Sometimes
• 42:31
  plants... Half that's really remedial, I guess
• 42:35
  but they have bad growth on but it's still growth
• 42:38
  and it doesn't benefit the plant But it's happening
• 42:40
  to the plant. So they are being stimulated by
• 42:43
  something in their environment. It's still growth
• 42:46
  Is it good not necessarily but it's still gross
• 42:50
  So I guess the same can happen to us How do we
• 42:56
  as plants? How do we how do we? You know Address
• 43:02
  it, fix ourselves, heal ourselves, whatever.
• 43:08
  Do we have the capacity to do that? Are we fixed
• 43:10
  in our thinking or do we have a... Sounds really
• 43:13
  schlocky. Do we have a growth mindset? Ruby,
• 43:17
  do we have a growth mindset? Yeah, we definitely
• 43:23
  have a growth mindset. Ruby does. Minds I think
• 43:26
  is limited. I think I lean more towards fix in
• 43:29
  my old age. Know it's not good or maybe paradoxically
• 43:34
  because I recognize that maybe I do have a growth
• 43:37
  mindset. I'm just really lazy You are not old
• 43:43
  okay, okay, you may be great But you are not
• 43:49
  I wasn't I wasn't fishing for someone to say
• 43:51
  you're not I have no problem You saying you're
• 43:59
  old makes me old You're younger than me. I think
• 44:04
  it's such a dichotomy of making the positive
• 44:09
  choice to grow or allowing yourself to sink into
• 44:16
  a place of despair. And I don't think that it's
• 44:21
  easy for people to always recognize when that
• 44:27
  point is, and sometimes you're required to go
• 44:30
  past that point for that point to break. And
• 44:34
  when it breaks, you gain, when you're in free
• 44:39
  fall and you can finally go, Oh damn, I need
• 44:45
  to do something right now. And when I started
• 44:50
  this podcast, I said, I'm what happens when you're
• 44:55
  going. fast on the highway for too long and thinking
• 44:58
  about something existential. My breaking point,
• 45:04
  I also asked you what was your breaking point.
• 45:06
  Mine was I used to work in Luigi's school and
• 45:10
  driving home, sitting in traffic, but I snuck
• 45:15
  out early and I was able to get home faster.
• 45:19
  And I perceived myself as being quite happy.
• 45:23
  But one day, I was going too fast and under a
• 45:30
  bridge, and I was wondering if I went fast enough
• 45:35
  to guarantee death, if I hit the side of the
• 45:38
  bridge. What? That sounds like a Nicholas Winding
• 45:42
  Ref and film. And that is, yeah. And that's when
• 45:48
  I went, I need to desperately find something.
• 45:54
  to help me immediately. And I had been cross
• 46:02
  -dressing for a while. And I'd also been browsing
• 46:10
  online, doing research, trying to figure out
• 46:14
  if I can transition in complete denial. I've
• 46:18
  said it before. I would go into a pharmacy and
• 46:21
  look for a misplaced estrogen. I would check
• 46:24
  creams for women to see if they had estradiol
• 46:27
  2 in. Just to try. Of course, like completely
• 46:32
  cisgender. Were you cisgender? No. But I would
• 46:41
  have told you that I was and I was unaware of
• 46:43
  the fact that I'm not. Okay. Yeah. Because that's
• 46:48
  what I think it to, like, you're telling yourself
• 46:52
  it's true, but obviously you were not, you're
• 46:54
  not denying. I was denying it, yeah, of course.
• 47:00
  Here I was, trust -dressing, but refusing to
• 47:05
  cross, one of the things that held me back for
• 47:07
  a very long time. And I've also spoken about
• 47:10
  this, but it's tangentially related, so it's
• 47:12
  never been connected. I was in a lot of debt.
• 47:17
  I was not financially secure. And it took me
• 47:20
  a long time to dig myself out of that. And the
• 47:23
  moment I did, the moment I had a little bit of
• 47:25
  expendable cash, I could finally do what I've
• 47:29
  always wanted to do. And that is to cosplay properly,
• 47:33
  but not to cosplay, to cross dress, but to do
• 47:38
  justice in a way. And what I didn't realize was...
• 47:42
  I was living through dysphoria and to do this
• 47:48
  thing that bigots and transforms push. man in
• 47:57
  a wig or I've heard cock in a frock. There's
• 48:02
  a whole myriad of litany of slurs for being transgender.
• 48:10
  But one of the things that gave me dysphoria
• 48:13
  is to... want to do it justice. I would never,
• 48:19
  ever, ever want to be a parody of a woman because
• 48:23
  I am one. My mind wouldn't connect the two. My
• 48:37
  breaking point was that, and then I met this
• 48:41
  girl online during COVID who I was really, I
• 48:48
  read her story on Reddit because I was desperately
• 48:50
  searching for people in China who could connect
• 48:54
  me to someone to get me estrogen. And she said,
• 48:58
  I know a person. Here you go. And two days later,
• 49:02
  I had a box of estrogen and the floodgates. That
• 49:06
  was now. What's the date? Four days ago. That
• 49:11
  was 10 months, 11 months, 10 months ago. I didn't
• 49:16
  mean to laugh for you, I was laughing because...
• 49:18
  You can laugh! No, it should be... It's really
• 49:21
  adorable. I give credit to cosplayers because
• 49:34
  they really go up. I won't say I think it's silly.
• 49:43
  I don't know. I understand the cosplayer. There's
• 49:47
  so much cosplaying in China. And it blows in
• 49:51
  my mind how invested a lot of people are in just
• 49:54
  getting like amazing, I'll say uniforms. I saw
• 49:59
  the other day, I was out and this girl, so for
• 50:04
  the listeners, it's common for people to make
• 50:07
  a day of getting dressed up and taking pictures
• 50:10
  of themselves as a character they're cosplaying
• 50:13
  as. And they're so devoted to the kinds of costumes
• 50:24
  they have. And it's impressive because when you
• 50:28
  look up close at these people, their face is
• 50:32
  just covered in so much makeup. They put weird
• 50:37
  lines and stuff that... Tran that it translates
• 50:42
  different onto the camera, but when you see them
• 50:44
  in person, it's just really silly like hard jagged
• 50:47
  lines It's a new kind. It's a it's a makeup technique
• 50:50
  Girls do it you leave you to know about it Anyway,
• 50:55
  it's great on the on the concept of cosplaying
• 50:58
  right now I have a question for you Nicole, but
• 51:01
  something I need to say One I'm cosplaying as
• 51:07
  Panty from the anime panty and stocking with
• 51:11
  a garter belt. It's a wild adult anime and these
• 51:20
  two angels, one is named Panty and one is named
• 51:23
  Stalker. Her panty turns into a gun and they're
• 51:27
  both angels and they have to earn heaven coins
• 51:30
  to get back to heaven. I am cosplaying as Panty
• 51:34
  and all of the parts for my costume that I am
• 51:36
  making is arriving or has arrived today. Congratulations.
• 51:42
  Wait a minute. Amazing. Let's go off. Let's go
• 51:46
  off. I'll send you photos. So in this universe,
• 51:51
  the, so assuming there's a heaven in this universe,
• 51:55
  the girl needs to get into heaven by getting
• 51:58
  heaven, what are they called? Heaven points,
• 52:00
  heaven points. Okay. And she has a pair of panties
• 52:04
  that turns to a gun. That's really violent. Why
• 52:07
  would heaven? Accept them. Panty and stockings
• 52:14
  defeat demons, and when they defeat a boss demon,
• 52:18
  they get a heaven coin. Stockings turn into sores,
• 52:25
  and panty's panty turns into... Garter Belt is
• 52:29
  a non -binary, bearded person, and I don't know
• 52:34
  what his Garter Belt does. It is definitely a
• 52:37
  queer -coded show. Yes. Because you've got these
• 52:40
  two girls, panties that turn into a gun. A phallic
• 52:44
  symbol and stockings that turn into swords, phallic.
• 52:49
  That's really cool. Okay. Now I'm going to watch.
• 52:54
  On the idea of cosplaying, I have a question
• 52:59
  for you, Nicole. There is a game here in China
• 53:03
  called Tian Yu Shi Kong. It is worldwide. There
• 53:10
  are four characters, a doctor, mermaid, and five
• 53:17
  characters now, a brother, and this mob boss
• 53:23
  dude, and this alien who is stranded on earth.
• 53:30
  It is wildly popular among women all over the
• 53:35
  world. They grossed like 24 million US dollars
• 53:45
  in a month last year. Say the name again, Ruby.
• 53:47
  I want to look. There you are, Shun Kong. Love
• 53:50
  and Deep Space is the name of this game. There's
• 53:56
  a fad in China where women... Okay, there's also
• 54:01
  an all -men movement here right now. Women are
• 54:05
  cosplaying as these guys who are your boyfriend
• 54:09
  in the game. You can court all five of them.
• 54:14
  Yes. So women are cosplaying as these guys and
• 54:18
  renting out their time as escorts to date other
• 54:22
  women. So they're pretending to be the men. They
• 54:25
  are, yes, they are embodying that character for
• 54:29
  the day. And women want to rent them to engage
• 54:33
  in the fantasy. that of this man. Exactly. I
• 54:37
  can understand that. And I can understand why
• 54:39
  women themselves would do it because I feel like
• 54:41
  they would have a better understanding of performing
• 54:43
  as this man for the other women. Where as I think
• 54:47
  men, I'm sure maybe men do it too. I want the
• 54:50
  calls out. No, men don't do it. Oh, they don't.
• 54:53
  They don't make any money. They fail immediately.
• 54:57
  Oh really? But though girls succeed. That's interesting.
• 55:00
  Super popular. Can we rent one for a day? A lot
• 55:05
  of them only go on dates with girls. That is
• 55:09
  wild. Why haven't I ever heard of this? Well,
• 55:12
  I'm hearing about it now, but still. What's the
• 55:14
  outcome of that? What do they learn out of? Before
• 55:17
  I answer your question, what do they want to
• 55:21
  get out of that experience? I could imagine.
• 55:25
  Companionship? Companionship, sure, but it's
• 55:27
  definitely the fantasy. Yeah. of the game. And
• 55:35
  I should ask my partner. It's a kind of pleasure
• 55:38
  there. Yeah, cause she plays. But what are your
• 55:45
  thoughts? My thoughts, I've got loads of questions.
• 55:47
  It's the first time I'm hearing about this. Yeah,
• 55:50
  it caught her off guard. It's so bizarre. Yeah,
• 55:52
  it's new thing. This is, yeah. So I think if
• 55:57
  I put myself in that, game or fantasy and hiding.
• 56:04
  So it's basically a female pretending to be a
• 56:07
  man. Cosplaying as a man. How does it work? Okay.
• 56:12
  Are these women clear? Yeah, I think. Are they
• 56:15
  what? That would be my question. The women in
• 56:17
  cosplay, are they clear or are they? That was
• 56:20
  like my primary question. Is it lesbian or? Is
• 56:27
  it queer? Is it LGBT quoted? Or is it just business?
• 56:33
  If it's just a kind of play, I think it depends.
• 56:38
  There comes like a point, they cross a line where
• 56:41
  it can be defined as queer or not. Now if there's
• 56:43
  just these, let's say cis women cosplaying and
• 56:48
  then, you know, doing like a dialogue or acting
• 56:51
  out a social dynamic with these girls and it
• 56:54
  doesn't go further than that, then you could
• 56:58
  argue it's cis, I guess, it's straight. But if
• 57:03
  there comes a point where they're doing things
• 57:06
  that are culturally considered, like, I don't
• 57:10
  want to say sexual, but I don't have a better
• 57:11
  word for it. So like, even in China, let's say,
• 57:13
  like, something that would be considered like
• 57:15
  a kind of courting, I guess, historically would
• 57:18
  be like even holding hands would mean like, a
• 57:21
  boyfriend and girlfriend, that's serious. Ooh,
• 57:23
  they're holding hands in public. So like that
• 57:26
  point, if that happened, there'd be that kind
• 57:30
  of like tipping point. So then you could argue,
• 57:33
  yes, it is queer. Even if it's business, oh,
• 57:37
  I don't know, that's so tough. Yeah, Nicole,
• 57:40
  what do you think? Yeah, sure. Look, I'm looking
• 57:45
  at this in a way we, again, I guess... If I'm
• 57:54
  thinking about this particular game and the fantasy
• 57:58
  intentions behind it, as this thing about Luigi
• 58:01
  was saying, is it for companionship or is it
• 58:05
  just, you know, there's other reasons of why.
• 58:10
  Yeah, it's so mind blowing. Like whatever it
• 58:15
  is, it's cool. Absolutely. Look, I'm not against
• 58:20
  it. It's just understanding, you know, what am
• 58:22
  I going to get out? What is this experience I'm
• 58:25
  getting? Because what's interesting is that you're
• 58:28
  saying, Ray, your partner is participating. And
• 58:32
  how does that impact you, you know, being part
• 58:35
  of that? Because you aren't indirectly impacted.
• 58:40
  So I'm just like, if I know that I'm going to
• 58:43
  partake in this experience, it doesn't impact
• 58:46
  me alone, but those around me, you know? I know,
• 58:50
  so what am I going to get out of this experience?
• 58:53
  Yeah, it's still mind blowing. It's mind blowing.
• 58:57
  A lot of interesting questions pop up. What did
• 59:01
  you ask, Luigi? What I wanted to say was, I think
• 59:05
  that we're trying to decide when it becomes a
• 59:10
  queer act, but really we would have to ask the
• 59:13
  person or persons engaging in it. the woman who's
• 59:17
  paying, she would have to say whether she is
• 59:21
  queer or not, and the woman working would have
• 59:24
  to say if they are queer or not. It's as simple
• 59:26
  as that. I think whatever is happening as well,
• 59:34
  the women ordering the service is participating
• 59:40
  in a cisgendered heteronormative act of dating
• 59:49
  a male character from a story. On the surface?
• 59:54
  From the perspective of the person providing
• 1:00:00
  the service. And it's not obviously, it's when
• 1:00:04
  I say escort, it's like a, it's a date. It's
• 1:00:07
  you just go out with them. It's a photo op and
• 1:00:10
  stuff like that. They might be rare. they might
• 1:00:15
  be queer, who knows? That's gonna be a self -identification
• 1:00:19
  thing. Yeah, so what would happen in a case where,
• 1:00:24
  you know, emotions start developing, is that
• 1:00:27
  against the rules? Like, yeah, just part of the
• 1:00:31
  experience I'm discovering, oh, but I'm attracted
• 1:00:33
  to this and this of the person. That's against
• 1:00:37
  the rules. I don't think there are rules. These
• 1:00:40
  are sole proprietors doing this. They're not
• 1:00:43
  working for organizations. I mean, I think it's
• 1:00:46
  no different than the kind of man who falls in
• 1:00:51
  love with his sex worker, right? I mean, it's
• 1:00:53
  a good possibility the people paying end up falling
• 1:00:57
  in love with that person. Would you call it a
• 1:01:02
  parasocial relationship? Maybe. Depends how attached
• 1:01:07
  that uh server let's say is to the the client
• 1:01:15
  but it reminds me of like host bars in japan
• 1:01:18
  where women pay to go to host bars and they they
• 1:01:22
  develop a relationship with the workers and the
• 1:01:24
  workers know they develop a relationship with
• 1:01:26
  them and it's an avenue to make you know to exploit
• 1:01:29
  them even more and make so much money it's definitely
• 1:01:33
  going into his face of breaking the paris social
• 1:01:38
  barrier because there's opportunity for content.
• 1:01:44
  But I think we've strayed a bit. Do we ever really,
• 1:01:50
  do we ever really stray in this podcast? Isn't
• 1:01:53
  that the whole point? Otherwise it wouldn't be
• 1:01:57
  a pet microscope. That's right. You have definitely
• 1:02:08
  shown up for me and been present for me. And
• 1:02:15
  so did Nicole. Thank you so much for, actually,
• 1:02:18
  I want to tell you that you kicked off this mini
• 1:02:23
  -series where we are going to be diving into
• 1:02:29
  LGBTQ activism in South Africa. Thank you. Thank
• 1:02:34
  you. I'm humbled. I'm humbled by that. Thank
• 1:02:36
  you. Yeah, sure. But can I just add on, just
• 1:02:41
  before we close off that conversation? No, we're
• 1:02:43
  not done yet. We're not. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:02:45
  I'm still thinking because the way I am also
• 1:02:50
  looking at it is the way how we express ourselves
• 1:02:53
  in our gender. Part of the trainings and sessions
• 1:03:00
  that I run with organizations or individuals,
• 1:03:03
  we talk about gender expression. and attraction
• 1:03:06
  and, you know, our sex characteristics. And maybe
• 1:03:12
  I would think this would be, you know, this game
• 1:03:18
  would basically explore that thing of gender
• 1:03:22
  expression. The stuff that I want to explore,
• 1:03:25
  I can't explore with my partner. The stuff that
• 1:03:28
  I want to explore around my values or identity
• 1:03:32
  that My partners are open to it yet, but he has
• 1:03:37
  a safe way of doing it. Let me explore it knowing
• 1:03:39
  that the stranger that I mean to acting with
• 1:03:42
  that they also on that kind of same journey or
• 1:03:48
  same kind of thinking it's all about like and
• 1:03:52
  like revealing a Fantasy that you've always wanted
• 1:03:56
  to do, you know, but looking at a way of maybe
• 1:04:00
  my partner's not ready to do it yet But because
• 1:04:04
  I'm open to my partner about it, they are allowing
• 1:04:06
  me to experience this for myself and for my own
• 1:04:09
  growth That was a study I was just looking at
• 1:04:13
  it in that way because yeah, it makes me it's
• 1:04:16
  it's a cool idea And yeah, I think I want to
• 1:04:20
  do it test it with the residents which again
• 1:04:25
  is going to challenge that thing of what it means
• 1:04:27
  to be human. What it means to be fully human
• 1:04:29
  without being judged and without allowing society
• 1:04:34
  and their nonsense and their rumors and all of
• 1:04:38
  these negative things. How can I challenge that
• 1:04:43
  voices but still show up fully for myself? So
• 1:04:46
  I'm also looking at it in that way. Yeah, still
• 1:04:49
  very curious. And I think it's not for everybody,
• 1:04:54
  which you also need to be, you know, aware of
• 1:04:57
  and conscious that everybody would be comfortable.
• 1:05:02
  Yeah, I guess to be open to that kind of experiential
• 1:05:06
  learning, you can want to put it that way. Yeah.
• 1:05:11
  I said my partner plays, this is an online game.
• 1:05:15
  It's basically a card game that tells a story.
• 1:05:20
  So to narrative. There's long form of entertainment
• 1:05:27
  and it's become so popular that it's given rise
• 1:05:31
  to this new thing where you can hire someone
• 1:05:36
  to go on a date with you as that person. It's
• 1:05:39
  not something that I would do because I don't
• 1:05:42
  think I need to explore. I'm past that. that
• 1:05:51
  need for exploration. I'm exploring higher picks,
• 1:05:55
  so. Do you think it's exploration though? Like
• 1:06:00
  the girls who rent the boys, is it exploration
• 1:06:05
  for them? Or do they know what they want? To
• 1:06:09
  me, it doesn't sound like exploration. It doesn't
• 1:06:11
  sound like the people cosplaying as the man to
• 1:06:14
  rent are exploring unless... you know, they are
• 1:06:19
  questioning their sexuality and this is a weirdly
• 1:06:24
  safe avenue. Dude, I don't think it is because
• 1:06:26
  it's a business for them, right? They have to
• 1:06:29
  pay. From the perspective of the person hiring,
• 1:06:33
  it could be exploration. It could be having given
• 1:06:39
  up on men because they've had so many bad experiences.
• 1:06:44
  Sure, yeah. You and I both have our own opinions
• 1:06:48
  on the dating culture here. So from that perspective,
• 1:06:56
  it can be exploring then with the marriage pressure
• 1:07:00
  to be able to date someone and have a romantic
• 1:07:04
  experience outside of the pressure of dating.
• 1:07:07
  I think that's important as well. A myriad of
• 1:07:11
  possibilities. How do we show up and be present
• 1:07:15
  for them? I think I mean obviously you just you
• 1:07:19
  know pay attention on That's it Make sure you're
• 1:07:25
  I'm trying to segue into your ah But I wanted
• 1:07:29
  to listen. I know I always have I always have
• 1:07:32
  my Things I I want to ask but then the guests
• 1:07:35
  always you know say interesting things that I
• 1:07:37
  want to know but okay Nicole You mentioned out
• 1:07:42
  this Again, this is kind of another tangent,
• 1:07:45
  but I'm really interested now. You said he went
• 1:07:47
  on a vision quest. I'm wondering I'm so cute
• 1:07:49
  like How do I do it? I want to do that How do
• 1:07:54
  you do a vision quest? I know so many people
• 1:07:56
  who do things like that You know, they all have
• 1:08:00
  their experiences some of them involving, you
• 1:08:03
  know, uh Adelix I've known people who've gone
• 1:08:08
  to like Thailand and like licked frogs or took
• 1:08:10
  some like black goo that was squeezed out of
• 1:08:12
  a frog It's a weird meditation. I think it's
• 1:08:16
  cool. I'd like to do that someday. But I'm just
• 1:08:20
  curious, how did you go about with your vision
• 1:08:24
  quest? Is it something you're practiced in? Was
• 1:08:26
  it a one -time thing? How did you do it? Yeah,
• 1:08:30
  sure. So, the first time I ever encountered a
• 1:08:34
  vision quest was during my years of studying.
• 1:08:41
  When I'm thinking about it now, we all do vision
• 1:08:44
  quests in our own way, but I think it's just
• 1:08:47
  the terms that we use. Vision quest, it can be
• 1:08:50
  called the rites of passage. It can be called
• 1:08:53
  change of life. It can be called, you know, cycle
• 1:08:57
  of life. And, and we all have some sort of way
• 1:09:01
  of how we do a vision quest and rites of passage.
• 1:09:03
  So this is how I explained it. And please stop
• 1:09:06
  me if I'm, if I'm. Too much Yeah, waffling or
• 1:09:13
  this too much information but for the time I
• 1:09:16
  discovered vision quest was in my fourth year
• 1:09:18
  of university and The way I understood it there's
• 1:09:24
  no religious attachments. There's no Traditional
• 1:09:30
  attachments and because we were a group of diverse
• 1:09:35
  young people it was just basically um, introduced
• 1:09:40
  in a way where you are now at a point in your
• 1:09:45
  life where you are about to step into the next
• 1:09:48
  phase of your, of your, of your journey. And
• 1:09:51
  in order for you to get there, you have to mock
• 1:09:53
  and acknowledge how far you've come, whether
• 1:09:55
  it be good, bad, the ugly, you have to acknowledge
• 1:09:58
  this is where I've come. And then from that,
• 1:10:01
  you have to now let go, let go of what has hold
• 1:10:05
  you back. Let go of the stuff that you're still
• 1:10:09
  struggling with, but can still work on, but just
• 1:10:13
  fully surrender to the universe. In simple terms,
• 1:10:17
  fully surrender to, okay, I'm here as Nicole,
• 1:10:21
  I'm here as a daughter, I'm here as a partner,
• 1:10:24
  I'm here as just a person who's existing. And
• 1:10:31
  it's all done in the mountains, which is, we
• 1:10:36
  went on a It's a two hour drive out of the city
• 1:10:41
  and it's beautiful mountains. And those mountains
• 1:10:45
  I used to work with. That was the previous organization
• 1:10:47
  I was working at. And space is set up in a way
• 1:10:51
  where it's going to be just about you and just
• 1:10:55
  about breaking and rebuilding and understanding
• 1:11:01
  what has really hurt me. What has really... um
• 1:11:05
  cause the trauma and that could go to like for
• 1:11:09
  me my story was family shit family trauma and
• 1:11:15
  I couldn't I was operating in a space where I
• 1:11:21
  couldn't see eye to eye with either my mom or
• 1:11:26
  you know family members because something is
• 1:11:28
  starting to shift for me my thinking is starting
• 1:11:30
  to shift my heart the way I respond to people
• 1:11:32
  is starting to shift But there's people in my
• 1:11:35
  family still remaining the same. Um, but in order
• 1:11:39
  for them to be in my life, there's something
• 1:11:41
  that I have to change in terms of the way I react
• 1:11:44
  to it, because they will never change. And that's
• 1:11:48
  a fact, but the way I shop in the world, this
• 1:11:51
  is how I'm going to shop for my own sanity, for
• 1:11:54
  my own wellbeing, for my own mental health in
• 1:11:57
  the end. Um, so this process, it's, it's the
• 1:12:00
  first three days that prepping you. around cleansing
• 1:12:03
  of the mind, cleansing of your soul, cleansing
• 1:12:06
  you physically, so preparing you for four days
• 1:12:09
  and four nights of fasting. And if I take that
• 1:12:12
  back of that fasting alone in Christianity for
• 1:12:14
  myself, for my spiritual growth, I also practice
• 1:12:17
  fasting. So it's cleansing my body, getting rid
• 1:12:21
  of the clutter, getting rid of... Why am I getting
• 1:12:24
  sick, you know, because all everything of that
• 1:12:26
  physical wellness is linked to your mentality
• 1:12:29
  It's linked to your emotions. So it's cleansing
• 1:12:31
  and Once you step into those four days and four
• 1:12:35
  nights step into there With an intention of what
• 1:12:39
  am I going to work on? So in my story I was working
• 1:12:42
  on The pain and the trauma of the previous board
• 1:12:49
  that just left me and the LGBT community that
• 1:12:54
  I thought that was here to support me to do this
• 1:12:57
  work. That was the trauma I was sitting with.
• 1:13:02
  And another part to that story was because I
• 1:13:05
  was not productive in my work, it was impacting
• 1:13:09
  me personally. So my health became like it was
• 1:13:13
  getting to a point where I I had to take medication
• 1:13:17
  and I'm not for one for taking medication. So
• 1:13:20
  high blood pressure tablets, I was closely going
• 1:13:24
  on antidepressants. So all of those factors had
• 1:13:28
  an impact on me and my body and I just needed
• 1:13:31
  a break. So part of the vision quest is just
• 1:13:35
  dealing with, oh my goodness, this person hurt
• 1:13:39
  me. This person didn't do what they said they
• 1:13:42
  would. what they said they were promised to do.
• 1:13:45
  And there was a whole lot of lists, but it really
• 1:13:49
  had, I really had to be open. If you're not open
• 1:13:54
  to that experience, and that's the thing of that
• 1:13:56
  intention is, because they ask you the question
• 1:13:58
  before you go onto this process, why do you want
• 1:14:00
  to do this? Because if you don't have that, if
• 1:14:04
  you don't have the reason why you want to go,
• 1:14:06
  the process in between or the interventions in
• 1:14:09
  between, it's going to be a bit of a struggle
• 1:14:11
  because you won't be able to connect mind, body,
• 1:14:14
  soul to the process or to the experience. And
• 1:14:21
  in my four days and four nights of fast, I mean,
• 1:14:23
  the experience for me, I had wild dreams of my
• 1:14:28
  ancestors. I had dreams of what my future might
• 1:14:31
  look like. I had dreams of the people that hurt
• 1:14:34
  me. um but in that four nights and four days
• 1:14:38
  of fasting you're also on your own so it's a
• 1:14:40
  solo i don't see anybody i'm just there with
• 1:14:44
  the boons and just the wild but it's also just
• 1:14:48
  how do how do i remind myself that i'm in their
• 1:14:51
  territory they're not in my territory so it's
• 1:14:55
  nature and i'm like okay in order for me to survive
• 1:14:58
  this night I have to make peace that I'm going
• 1:15:00
  to see baboons and I'm going to see other wild
• 1:15:03
  animals because that's also a form of safety
• 1:15:05
  and connecting with nature and saying I'm here,
• 1:15:08
  I'm surrendering and whatever needs to happen
• 1:15:10
  needs to happen. But also just being very focused
• 1:15:14
  on the goal at the end. Coming out of that experience,
• 1:15:18
  now you come back to your community. So who is
• 1:15:21
  this new person that has gone through this experience
• 1:15:24
  and what has happened in those four days and
• 1:15:29
  four nights, you share a bit of that story because
• 1:15:31
  it's important to share it with your community
• 1:15:34
  that's going to hold you accountable in the end,
• 1:15:37
  knowing that they've journeyed with you through
• 1:15:41
  this kind of therapeutic, you can call it, healing
• 1:15:47
  process. They are the people that's going to
• 1:15:49
  catch you when you fall. They are the people
• 1:15:51
  that's going to catch you when you need support.
• 1:15:53
  But also remind you of This is your intention.
• 1:15:56
  This is what you work towards. And it's a painful
• 1:16:00
  experience. For me, it was painful, like emotionally
• 1:16:03
  painful. But I needed to shift my thinking. I
• 1:16:09
  could not operate from a point of hate and exclusion
• 1:16:13
  because that is not what I'm here to serve. This
• 1:16:17
  is not why I'm here to serve. And every time
• 1:16:21
  when I find myself at a point where I'm not aligned
• 1:16:24
  with my purpose and my intention, I go back to
• 1:16:27
  staleness. I go back to nature and just like,
• 1:16:30
  okay, I did what I thought I should do, but what
• 1:16:34
  is going on now? So it's important for me and
• 1:16:37
  to keep me sane. It's just going back to that
• 1:16:42
  place of staleness. I don't go to church. I am
• 1:16:46
  a Christian, but I don't see the bolding as,
• 1:16:51
  you know, my connection and my relationship to
• 1:16:52
  God, but I have my ways of being still and what
• 1:16:57
  works for you, works for you, what works for
• 1:16:59
  me, works for me. And that's the thing about
• 1:17:00
  what we teach again at the shelter is that spiritual
• 1:17:03
  element of how do we connect self to nature and
• 1:17:07
  practice it in a safe way. So yeah, that's in
• 1:17:11
  a nutshell, what a vision quest or what rites
• 1:17:13
  of passage is. And then just to add on what,
• 1:17:18
  just the everyday. Um, examples, because I know
• 1:17:23
  there's this thing of like, uh, it comes back
• 1:17:27
  to that native American teachings of sending,
• 1:17:29
  you know, the young man into the wild and being
• 1:17:33
  guided by the chief. But if I bring it back home,
• 1:17:36
  my rites of passage growing up would be baptism
• 1:17:38
  would be, you know, confirmation. Another rites
• 1:17:42
  of passage would be marriage and other rites
• 1:17:44
  of passage would be, um, you know, death. So
• 1:17:48
  everything has got. some purpose and there's
• 1:17:50
  a process that people have to go through. But
• 1:17:53
  I think it's just the terminologies that we tend
• 1:17:57
  to use, but we all do it some way, somehow. Going
• 1:18:01
  back to that place of stillness and just re -evaluating,
• 1:18:05
  oh snap, this is where I'm at. This is where
• 1:18:08
  I want to go, but I'm just stuck right now. What
• 1:18:11
  is that stuckness? What does it mean to you?
• 1:18:17
  I hope I'm making sense. No, you're making a
• 1:18:19
  lot of sense. It's great. I think, you know,
• 1:18:24
  when people think of things like Vision Quest,
• 1:18:25
  it seems so complicated and impossible and that
• 1:18:28
  kind of discourages people. Or maybe this is
• 1:18:30
  a total self -report, you know, because I always
• 1:18:32
  think, oh, it's too hard. I could never do that.
• 1:18:35
  I mean, it is hard. Like, you said you did it,
• 1:18:37
  you were completely alone for four days and nights.
• 1:18:40
  Like, that's super brave. I don't know if I could
• 1:18:44
  do that. I want to be able to do that. I mean,
• 1:18:49
  I would love to have some introspection as put
• 1:18:51
  together as I seem to be. And that's the thing,
• 1:18:57
  Luigi. Like that's the thing though. I think
• 1:19:02
  we tend to overcomplicate things. I think about
• 1:19:07
  like that stillness. If you take an hour of your
• 1:19:10
  day, just decide, go take a walk. that it would
• 1:19:13
  be your rites of passage. That would be your
• 1:19:15
  solo time. So the more you build and the more
• 1:19:17
  you practice, eventually that one hour will become
• 1:19:20
  one day and then four days. So it's also what
• 1:19:25
  I was saying in the beginning of the rites of
• 1:19:26
  passage, they prepare you for that experience.
• 1:19:30
  So cutting down on food. you know spending time
• 1:19:33
  in nature so starting your process already before
• 1:19:35
  you go into the mountains um we totally like
• 1:19:39
  you are totally stripped away from technology
• 1:19:41
  and time and just you and your water and journals
• 1:19:45
  understand so it's like baby steps like having
• 1:19:50
  absolutely nothing to occupy your mind like i'm
• 1:19:53
  at home after work and i think i'm being still
• 1:19:57
  but You're right. Like I could be connected to
• 1:20:00
  social media I can turn on the TV and I can't
• 1:20:03
  even imagine not eating and just being in the
• 1:20:06
  wilderness with You know a pen and a pad of paper.
• 1:20:11
  I always tell myself I'm in a journal I never
• 1:20:15
  do but like I can't like oh my god. That's just
• 1:20:18
  blows my mind how how So much more difficult
• 1:20:24
  it would be or at least how much more kind of
• 1:20:27
  like Surreal eye -opening would be like right
• 1:20:30
  now you're telling me this story and I'm hearing
• 1:20:33
  you but I'm thinking but and but I think if I
• 1:20:35
  did it it would be even more just overwhelming
• 1:20:39
  To be fasting and in nature and have nothing
• 1:20:44
  to occupy you like what kind of thoughts would
• 1:20:46
  enter your mind, especially if You know you begin
• 1:20:49
  a fast and you get hungry because like I can
• 1:20:51
  I can admit if I don't eat It will affect my
• 1:20:56
  thinking And I'm not saying like, I'm hangry.
• 1:20:59
  No, it's just like the, you know, I do get negative
• 1:21:02
  and I do recognize that I probably am this way
• 1:21:05
  because I haven't eaten, but I'm not angry because
• 1:21:08
  I'm not eating. But it's just like, that's my
• 1:21:10
  chemical disposition. So like what would happen
• 1:21:12
  to me if I were to do that? Think that if you
• 1:21:17
  are actually fasting and there's nobody around
• 1:21:22
  you and you just have your journal and just your
• 1:21:25
  water. It doesn't matter how angry you get, I
• 1:21:29
  think. Isn't that kind of the point? In a way?
• 1:21:35
  Yeah, you're right. I guess, yeah, you would
• 1:21:39
  come out on the other end after. I'm just so
• 1:21:41
  curious what they do. I've tried fasting. The
• 1:21:44
  longest I fasted was for three days. But I was
• 1:21:50
  still surrounded by things that distracted me.
• 1:21:54
  You know, like TV, for example. the city Whatever
• 1:21:58
  and I was in Suzhou while I was staying with
• 1:22:01
  friends. So yeah Anyway, isn't it doesn't it
• 1:22:05
  get easier? after like the first day I'm told
• 1:22:10
  after the the third day is when things really
• 1:22:12
  start Like to shift and that's what I was aiming
• 1:22:16
  for when I was going for three days But I personally
• 1:22:18
  didn't see any or I didn't experience anything
• 1:22:21
  that I thought wow This is great. So I mean I
• 1:22:25
  may have done it wrong, but you know It's more
• 1:22:29
  than I've ever done Maybe I'll try again. I mean
• 1:22:33
  stuff really fascinates me and you and this the
• 1:22:36
  idea to a kind of motif I keep hearing is like
• 1:22:39
  You have to be open to you know the experience
• 1:22:43
  and this happens in so many things vision quest
• 1:22:46
  when people Take psychedelics, you know, you're
• 1:22:50
  gonna have a bad trip if you're not open to the
• 1:22:52
  experience. So You can't just rely on the thing.
• 1:22:55
  So let's, for example, say, taking mushrooms.
• 1:22:58
  You can't just rely on taking the mushrooms to
• 1:23:01
  give you a great experience that you have to
• 1:23:04
  first prepare. Sure, yeah. Anyway, yeah, fasting
• 1:23:08
  stuff. I love it. This is definitely something
• 1:23:11
  I would like to introduce in my life to be more,
• 1:23:13
  you know, have more experience. Be a better person.
• 1:23:16
  Yes, of course. Anyway. In the neck. In the next
• 1:23:19
  podcast, your introduction, I want you to say
• 1:23:22
  aspiring faster. Aspiring to fast. Aspiring vision
• 1:23:32
  quester. Yeah, exactly. That was fantastic. Should
• 1:23:37
  we wrap it up? Should we answer a couple more
• 1:23:40
  questions? I have so many questions, but I also
• 1:23:45
  have Nicole on WhatsApp now. Be prepared. Go
• 1:23:51
  for it. Go for it. What was your perspective?
• 1:23:55
  My perspective? My perspective. I still have
• 1:24:01
  my perspective. Yeah, it was about being present.
• 1:24:04
  It was about not being present. In the right
• 1:24:07
  way. We can talk about it. Yeah. If you two are
• 1:24:10
  still willing. I have time. Okay. Well, we won't
• 1:24:13
  talk so long about it, but... Okay, here's the
• 1:24:17
  thing about being present that I have a kind
• 1:24:19
  of I had to I had an insight so picture this
• 1:24:23
  picture the the cliche of You know a person going
• 1:24:27
  I'm gonna go into nature and read my book and
• 1:24:32
  I thought the same thing we had we had a holiday
• 1:24:34
  in China a couple weeks ago And I thought to
• 1:24:38
  myself I need to get at work. I'm gonna go To
• 1:24:41
  the lake. I'm gonna bring my book and I'm gonna
• 1:24:44
  read it And it's gonna be nice and it's all it's
• 1:24:47
  gonna be I'm gonna be nice and present yeah,
• 1:24:49
  yeah, yeah, I get there and You know, I'm seeing
• 1:24:54
  how Peaceful and calming and beautiful nature
• 1:24:58
  is and Okay, mind you I'm I'm at a place like
• 1:25:04
  a restaurant on a lake And I I open my book and
• 1:25:09
  I'm trying to read it but I cannot concentrate
• 1:25:12
  and I'm thinking to myself what a book does for
• 1:25:16
  a person. You know, it's an escape. It helps
• 1:25:21
  them escape. And that's not a bad thing. Like,
• 1:25:23
  I think it's good to read, like fiction, whatever.
• 1:25:28
  But you have to be engaged in the book. So the
• 1:25:31
  paradox for me was I wanted to go and be present
• 1:25:36
  somewhere and have a cool experience, but I had
• 1:25:39
  to do it while reading a book. And I thought,
• 1:25:42
  well, this is a waste. I should be reading my
• 1:25:45
  book at home, being immersed in the book. And
• 1:25:50
  while I'm here in this place, I should be just
• 1:25:54
  sitting and observing and taking it all in. Listening
• 1:25:58
  to the voices, seeing the sunset, feeling the
• 1:26:04
  air. And I was just thinking, I'm doing being
• 1:26:07
  present in the wrong way. And I think a lot of
• 1:26:09
  people are doing being present in the wrong way.
• 1:26:12
  and they have this kind of romantic notion of
• 1:26:16
  how it should be done or something else so romantic
• 1:26:18
  like, oh, I'm reading a book under a tree. Like
• 1:26:21
  they see these kinds of images maybe in pop culture
• 1:26:24
  and they try to mimic them themselves. So I will
• 1:26:30
  never ever, ever bring a book with me ever again
• 1:26:34
  anywhere and I will sit and be, you know, present
• 1:26:39
  in nature. Because like Nicole said, nature heals.
• 1:26:45
  But I think a lot of people, yeah, I think we're
• 1:26:49
  being present wrong when you have these kinds
• 1:26:51
  of other things to distract you and help you
• 1:26:58
  not, I don't know, help you, but prevent you
• 1:27:01
  from sitting with yourself. being in the moment.
• 1:27:07
  Because another thing I observed when I started
• 1:27:09
  being present was I'm looking at all the people
• 1:27:11
  out around me and I'm thinking, wow, all these
• 1:27:14
  people are on their phones. All these people
• 1:27:16
  are taking pictures of themselves in this beautiful
• 1:27:20
  place, or they're getting food. I don't know
• 1:27:22
  if the food was so bad. I suppose you could be
• 1:27:24
  present, you know, with all the food you're eating.
• 1:27:26
  But I just thought, I also thought why you don't
• 1:27:29
  need all those things. I always think when I
• 1:27:31
  go out, it'll be a waste if I'm not purchasing
• 1:27:34
  something. as small as like a coffee. So now
• 1:27:38
  I've been saying to myself, you should not feel
• 1:27:41
  bad for just going out and existing and just
• 1:27:45
  like being like, that's all you need. Why can't
• 1:27:49
  you just be present there? Why do you need a
• 1:27:51
  thing to like justify, make the experience worthwhile?
• 1:27:56
  I think that might also be, you know, a symptom
• 1:27:58
  of our kind of like materialist or like consumer
• 1:28:00
  driven culture. But as soon as I made that decision,
• 1:28:06
  I found a great deal more peace. And I didn't
• 1:28:12
  feel so bad when I just go out. I don't feel
• 1:28:16
  any kind of guilt or pressure. I can just go
• 1:28:20
  out and be and not think, oh, I wasted my day
• 1:28:22
  because I didn't do something, which meant I
• 1:28:25
  didn't buy something when I was out. I could
• 1:28:29
  just walk around. I don't know. I could walk
• 1:28:31
  around a mall. I don't know. I could just do
• 1:28:33
  anything. I understand old people now when they're
• 1:28:35
  just wandering. I understand it. I think they're
• 1:28:37
  more present than we are. You're right. You are
• 1:28:42
  old. Older than me. Really. You're ancient. Oh
• 1:28:50
  my gosh. Whatever. I fully agree with you and
• 1:28:56
  it kind of leans into what my perspective was.
• 1:29:00
  Quiet acts of resilience that help us to foster
• 1:29:05
  the positive change within ourselves For me that
• 1:29:11
  was You know, there's a there's a myriad of ways
• 1:29:14
  and and at the risk of making everything somber
• 1:29:17
  I'll bring it back, but my quiet active resilience
• 1:29:21
  was keeping the steering wheel fucking on the
• 1:29:24
  road and not going into the bridge and then now
• 1:29:33
  it's just this thing of living unabashedly. When
• 1:29:39
  I want to do something, I just do it. I don't
• 1:29:43
  feel restrained by societal norms and expectations.
• 1:29:50
  I also want to buy a coffee when I go out, but
• 1:29:52
  more and more, I'm making the choice not to.
• 1:29:55
  And one of my biggest weaknesses is when I go
• 1:29:58
  out and I sit down at a fancy restaurant, I just
• 1:30:02
  want to order the biggest freaking burger there
• 1:30:05
  is. Like, my feeling is I'm at this restaurant
• 1:30:07
  now, I'm here once. Like, let me just get the
• 1:30:10
  biggest, fanciest meal that they have. Why not?
• 1:30:14
  Yes, but I don't need it. I don't need it. It's
• 1:30:18
  so many more calories. Yeah. Like, you're trying
• 1:30:22
  to, like, feel. Yeah, I understand that. You
• 1:30:25
  don't want any, you know, bubble teasers. It's
• 1:30:29
  like you're a junkie. You just want to, like,
• 1:30:31
  feel better. That's an addiction, I think. That's
• 1:30:34
  a kind of an addiction. It's an addiction instead
• 1:30:38
  of questioning. Why do you want this? Why do
• 1:30:39
  you feel like you need it? You could just be
• 1:30:41
  stressed out. You could be hungry granted but
• 1:30:43
  I Go the other way when it comes to going to
• 1:30:45
  the restaurants I would like to go to a restaurant
• 1:30:47
  and just be like I just want a cup of coffee
• 1:30:49
  Thanks, but I feel bad Say something like that.
• 1:30:53
  Like they're gonna be like, why aren't you ordering
• 1:30:54
  more? I did that Yeah, and I sat down I ordered
• 1:31:02
  it Not even a coffee. I ordered a dry burst tea.
• 1:31:07
  Okay. The waiter was just expecting me. Do you
• 1:31:15
  guys tip in South Africa? Is tipping a thing?
• 1:31:18
  Yeah. Wow, that's wild. I wouldn't have expected
• 1:31:22
  tipping to exist in South Africa. I'm staunchly
• 1:31:24
  against it. I don't like that. I don't like tipping.
• 1:31:29
  Tipping is over. Hashtag over with tipping. Sorry,
• 1:31:34
  Ray. I tipped him well. I don't mind tipping,
• 1:31:41
  especially if I know that the restaurants aren't
• 1:31:44
  paying what they should be paying. My first job
• 1:31:48
  was in exclusive books as a bookstore. Okay.
• 1:31:50
  In that respect, I understand. I support tipping.
• 1:31:53
  Yeah. But in Canada, my war is against the restaurants,
• 1:31:58
  not against the server. Yeah, I'll give the server
• 1:32:05
  cash. I never probably won't write it down because
• 1:32:08
  then it stays in the till, right? I don't know
• 1:32:12
  how. True. I just want everybody to get a livable
• 1:32:15
  wage and we can just do it. We've been talking
• 1:32:17
  a lot. Nicole. I just want to add on to this
• 1:32:24
  point, the art of presence and just coming back
• 1:32:29
  to the experience on VisionQuest. I think for
• 1:32:34
  what I want to say to us here, but also to the
• 1:32:39
  listeners is when you go. On your solo time or
• 1:32:45
  just tapping out for a little bit and just finding
• 1:32:48
  that stillness is Realizing that you can't pour
• 1:32:51
  from an empty cup So it's been giving and giving
• 1:32:55
  and giving so much to everybody, but what are
• 1:32:58
  you giving to yourself? What are you gifting
• 1:32:59
  yourself? You know, what is that opportunity
• 1:33:02
  that you're allowing yourself just to breathe
• 1:33:04
  a little bit because Everybody wants something
• 1:33:08
  up from you. Everyone wants a piece of you, but
• 1:33:12
  now What more can you give to, you know, to people,
• 1:33:18
  but there's nothing you can give. There's nothing
• 1:33:21
  left that you're giving yourself. So it's you're
• 1:33:23
  blessing yourself with that gift of time and
• 1:33:25
  presence and just putting your phone on silent
• 1:33:29
  for just a little bit. The world will continue
• 1:33:31
  without you for that moment. And just realizing,
• 1:33:34
  ah, okay, I cannot pull from an empty cup. What
• 1:33:37
  do I need to do right now? Yeah, I just wanted
• 1:33:43
  to share that little bit of... Yeah, I find that
• 1:33:47
  we... Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I
• 1:33:50
  feel like a lot of people do give more of themselves
• 1:33:54
  to others than to their own selves. You know,
• 1:33:57
  I always think... Maybe I'm gonna be... Maybe
• 1:34:01
  this is me being real vulnerable, but I say to
• 1:34:03
  myself, you know, Luigi, you have to... When
• 1:34:08
  you go out you can't be bummed that you're going
• 1:34:10
  it alone like you have forced have to go out
• 1:34:11
  and like you have to it sounds so tacky, but
• 1:34:15
  it's like you have to take yourself on a date
• 1:34:17
  and You got to love yourself that listen Straight
• 1:34:22
  hetero cisgender male whatever but like for me
• 1:34:25
  I have to do that I'm not used to doing you know,
• 1:34:29
  like giving to myself and that's something Think
• 1:34:34
  I need to do So that was something also in my
• 1:34:37
  mind in these past weeks when I was doing these
• 1:34:39
  things like oh I don't want to go out and I was
• 1:34:42
  thinking why Are you not good enough to take
• 1:34:45
  yourself out on a date? Give that to yourself.
• 1:34:48
  You're willing to to do it to other people and
• 1:34:51
  take them out on date, but not yourself And that's
• 1:34:54
  what you should do. Maybe that's better The whole
• 1:34:58
  kind of cliche thing and love yourself, but that's
• 1:35:00
  what the you know pouring from an empty cup thing,
• 1:35:04
  reminded me of. Yeah. And this thing where like,
• 1:35:07
  we weren't taught these things growing up, like
• 1:35:09
  taking care of ourselves. You know, we were always
• 1:35:12
  taught of like giving and showing up for other
• 1:35:14
  people. So that blueprint is in our minds to
• 1:35:18
  into our adulthood. But now we are reversing
• 1:35:23
  that kind of narrative or teaching and saying,
• 1:35:26
  okay. What does it mean to fall in love with
• 1:35:29
  myself? What does it mean to gift myself? What
• 1:35:31
  does it mean to take myself out on a date? Because
• 1:35:36
  then that's just a thing, and you go back to
• 1:35:38
  that thing of change and growth. It can be bad,
• 1:35:42
  it can be good, you know? But it's just that
• 1:35:47
  thing of this, that we weren't taught these things
• 1:35:49
  growing up. If we were, we just didn't take note
• 1:35:52
  of it. We weren't serious about it, but now it
• 1:35:54
  plays out in our adulthood. And like, oh, what
• 1:35:57
  is, what does it mean to take care of myself?
• 1:35:59
  You know, like for me, I struggle to this day.
• 1:36:02
  I struggle to, um, spoil myself, like buy myself
• 1:36:07
  flowers to this day, because I can use that money
• 1:36:11
  and feed someone. I can use that money to give
• 1:36:14
  to my family, but that is not where I should
• 1:36:18
  operate from. And then we'll go back to the thing
• 1:36:20
  of I'm still pouring from an empty cup. The stuff
• 1:36:24
  that I've learned in the past, was it a waste?
• 1:36:27
  I'm not practicing what I've learned, you know?
• 1:36:30
  So it's a daily battle, I think, because we're
• 1:36:34
  not perfect human beings and we have to go through
• 1:36:38
  these growing pains to understand, okay, hold
• 1:36:41
  on, let me just make a decision here. And what
• 1:36:45
  decision that I'm going to make, I have to live
• 1:36:47
  with it. So yeah, Luigi, it's the thing of just
• 1:36:57
  What we've been taught when we were younger is
• 1:37:00
  it's still relevant today in your life, like
• 1:37:03
  in our lives or in our journey, whatever, how
• 1:37:06
  you want to put it, but is it still relevant?
• 1:37:09
  And what works for you might not work for me
• 1:37:12
  and vice versa. And that's, that's, that's the
• 1:37:14
  thing of being okay. With that with the decision,
• 1:37:20
  you know what the decision you've made or we
• 1:37:23
  all make Will be okay with living with that consequences
• 1:37:27
  Yeah, it's an ongoing journey that there's not
• 1:37:31
  a fix it's not fixed It's messy but it's also
• 1:37:37
  at the end it's For me, it's the lessons. It's
• 1:37:42
  the lessons that I get out of it because I know
• 1:37:44
  okay I don't want to do that again if I do onto
• 1:37:48
  a different key. Yeah. What a beautiful thing.
• 1:37:56
  And from my perspective, from what I've seen
• 1:37:59
  in this episode, it looks like you are taking
• 1:38:04
  care of yourself wonderfully. I think, and you
• 1:38:07
  too, Luigi. I think being aware of the possibility
• 1:38:13
  of change and Taking care of oneself is the first
• 1:38:18
  step, right? Because without awareness, you're
• 1:38:22
  in Plato's cave and unable to get out. So, yeah.
• 1:38:30
  Let's wrap it up there. Ladies and gentlemen,
• 1:38:34
  thank you so much for listening to this episode
• 1:38:38
  of Kaleidoscope. If you would like to find out
• 1:38:42
  more about the Pride Sheltered Trust, Please
• 1:38:46
  follow them on Facebook at Pride Shelter Trust
• 1:38:49
  or Instagram at Pride Shelter Trust. You can
• 1:38:53
  also find them on their website www .pridesheltertrust
• 1:38:59
  .org .za or you can directly email Nicole at
• 1:39:05
  director at pride shelter trust .org .za. You
• 1:39:11
  can find Kaleidoscope at echoember .co .uk, firefromheat
• 1:39:20
  on Instagram, or heatfromfire on TikTok. You
• 1:39:24
  can also follow me on YouTube and watch this
• 1:39:27
  full episode live at YouTube at r -a -e -l -i
• 1:39:34
  -u. This has been Kaleidoscope with Stride Shadow
• 1:39:39
  Trust.