Latest / Pod Save America / Trump Calls for Democrats' Executions

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Trump Calls for Democrats' Executions · Pod Save America

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  Speaker 3: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: On today's show, Trump caps off a rough week and
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: the worst polls of the year by calling for Democrats' execution.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: I'm sure that'll help. We'll also talk about how his
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: attempts to prosecute people he doesn't like and his plan
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: to rig the midterm map may have hit a few snags. Meanwhile,
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: the House has come back to D.C. after a month
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: off just in time to embarrass itself with a fresh
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: spate of scandals. But don't worry, they're bipartisan in nature, Dan.
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: So that's good.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: Reaching across the aisle. Also, Zoran Mamdani dares to visit
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: the White House on Friday for a chat with fellow
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: New Yorker Donald Trump. And then Tommy talks to Yasmeen
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Raji of Swing Left. about a new way of thinking
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: about contacting and organizing voters. But let's start with the
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: latest reason that the president of the United States should
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: be committed to a mental institution. This morning, he repeatedly
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: called for six Democratic members of Congress to be put
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  Speaker 3: to death by hanging in a series of about 20
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  Speaker 3: posts on Truth Social. Trump was responding to a video
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  Speaker 3: posted by the six Democrats, all of whom either served
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  Speaker 3: in the military or intel community. reminding Americans currently serving
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  Speaker 3: that they're not obligated to follow unlawful orders. Here's a clip.
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  Speaker 5: Right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming
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  Speaker 5: from abroad, but from right here at home.
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  Speaker 2: Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.
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  Speaker 5: No one has to carry out orders that violate the
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  Speaker 5: law or our Constitution.
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  Speaker 3: Look, I think the music was a little much, but
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  Speaker 3: I wouldn't call for them to be hung over it.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: So that video set off a wave of hysteria among
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: Republican politicians and Fox hosts. which eventually made its way
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: to Trump, who called the Democrats, quote, traitors who should be, quote, arrested,
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: locked up, and tried for, quote, seditious behavior punishable by death,
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: all caps. Mentioned seditious behavior in three separate posts. Wanted
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: to make sure everyone also knew that it was punishable
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  Speaker 3: by death. And then for good measure, he reposted someone
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  Speaker 3: else saying, all caps, hang them. George Washington would. George
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: Washington catching strays here. It all sounded quite similar to
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: the reaction from Trump's second in command, Stephen Miller, who
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  Speaker 3: appeared on Fox a day before and said this.
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  Speaker 6: It is insurrection, plainly, directly, without question. It's a general
• 4:02
  Speaker 6: call for rebellion from the CIA and the armed services
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  Speaker 6: of the United States by Democrat lawmakers. These lawmakers should
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  Speaker 6: honestly resign in disgrace and never return to public office again.
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  Speaker 6: So when we say that Democrats are communists, we don't
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  Speaker 6: just mean that, well, they believe in the state control
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  Speaker 6: of property. We mean they've adopted a method of thinking
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  Speaker 6: in which any use of force is justified for their
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  Speaker 6: end state of power and control.
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  Speaker 3: It's pretty bad when Stephen Miller sounds like the calmer
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  Speaker 3: one between him and Donald Trump. Gee, Dan, I wonder why...
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  Speaker 3: those Democrats thought it was a good idea to remind
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  Speaker 3: the military that they aren't obligated to follow unlawful orders
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  Speaker 3: from the guy who then called on them to be hanged.
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  Speaker 3: Why would they do such a thing?
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  Speaker 2: You raise an important point, John. You raise an important point.
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  Speaker 2: I got a couple of thoughts here. First, this is
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  Speaker 2: beyond the point. It's not really what we're here for,
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: but Stephen Miller, obviously a very dangerous human being, but
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: it's impossible to take a word he says seriously in
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: the way he speaks.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It's just like, it's so, like he is the Saturday
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Night Live skit of himself, I guess.
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  Speaker 3: But just, it's absurd. Yeah, it's like an angry, like
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: fascist tone.
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  Speaker 2: But it's like also with a weird accent and like
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  Speaker 2: with a staccato, like he's just.
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  Speaker 3: You're from Santa Monica. You're from fucking Santa Monica, dude.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you should say dude, which I think you're supposed
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: to do in that case. Yeah, very strange. But there's
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  Speaker 2: a lot to unpack here. So one, there's why did
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  Speaker 2: these members of Congress do this? And it's because, oh,
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  Speaker 2: I don't know. The administration is bombing boats in the
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: ocean without any real explanation of what legal basis by
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: which they are doing it. There is no There's no
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: authorization for use of military force for it. It's not
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  Speaker 2: clear who the enemy is. It's not clear what the
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  Speaker 2: evidence is to support this. When, as Alyssa Slotkin has
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  Speaker 2: pointed out in the wake of all of this furor,
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  Speaker 2: is they've asked repeatedly for what the legal basis is,
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  Speaker 2: and they basically get the shrug emoji. It's like, we
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  Speaker 2: don't have to really tell you. And third point, these
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  Speaker 2: people are all fucking snowflakes. Trump, Miller, the rest of
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  Speaker 2: the Republicans, these people are All these members did in
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  Speaker 2: this video with the dramatic music and vertical videos was
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  Speaker 2: to remind members of the military and the intelligence community
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  Speaker 2: not to do illegal things. That's all it said. Didn't
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  Speaker 2: say don't follow legal orders. It didn't say don't listen
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  Speaker 2: to the commander-in-chief. It said we are reminding you as
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  Speaker 2: the co-equal branch of government who is part of the
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  Speaker 2: system of checks and balances put forward in the Constitution–
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  Speaker 2: reminding you that if you get an illegal order, you
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  Speaker 2: do not have to follow it, and you come to us,
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  Speaker 2: and we will protect you. That is the point here.
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  Speaker 2: And you do protest too much, because if you're not
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  Speaker 2: giving illegal orders, why do you care? If you are
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  Speaker 2: giving illegal orders, you care passionately.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, you mentioned Venezuela just as one example, or
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  Speaker 3: the extrajudicial killings off the coast of Venezuela and in
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  Speaker 3: the Caribbean that have So far, no legal basis that
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  Speaker 3: at least the administration can provide. I don't know if
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  Speaker 3: you saw on the news, the attorney general in the
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  Speaker 3: UK has told the government in the UK that maybe
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  Speaker 3: they should stop sharing intelligence with us because we, as
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  Speaker 3: the United States, are carrying out illegal killings based on
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  Speaker 3: no legal justification. The top lawyer at Southcom, which is
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  Speaker 3: the part of the military that's overseeing the strikes, has resigned.
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  Speaker 3: reportedly because this lawyer was telling people like there's, there's
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  Speaker 3: no legal justification. And like you said, every letter that,
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  Speaker 3: that Democrats in Congress have sent to the administration asking
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  Speaker 3: for some evidence that these are combatants, some kind of
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  Speaker 3: legal justification, some kind of evidence that they're a threat
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  Speaker 3: to us, the people that they're killing in these boats,
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  Speaker 3: some kind of evidence of, of legal justification for this,
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  Speaker 3: they won't provide it. And in the New York Times
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  Speaker 3: story about this video, both Alyssa Slotkin, Mark Kelly, and
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  Speaker 3: others tell The Times that the genesis of this was
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  Speaker 3: like some folks in the military and the national security
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  Speaker 3: apparatus were coming to them and saying like, I'm concerned
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  Speaker 3: that we are killing civilians and could someday be held
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  Speaker 3: legally liable for that. The uniform code for military justice
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  Speaker 3: lays out very clearly that you should not obey unlawful orders. Now,
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  Speaker 3: the standard here is like, if it's clear that it's
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  Speaker 3: unlawful to you, like if someone says, go kill that
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  Speaker 3: civilian or go take that noncombatant prisoner or torture that person.
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  Speaker 7: Right.
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  Speaker 3: But, um, still we're in quite a gray area right now.
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  Speaker 3: And all they said was a reminder of what the
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  Speaker 3: law already States. That's it. They're not trying to say
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  Speaker 3: anything else, but the law with the law States. So anyway,
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  Speaker 3: that's that because it caused a whole, if, if Trump
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  Speaker 3: never did any of this today, it would still be
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  Speaker 3: a story just because of the fucking hysteria it caused
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  Speaker 3: on Fox News yesterday. And, you know, Jason Crow, who
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  Speaker 3: also served in the military, he's a Democratic member of Congress.
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  Speaker 3: He did an interview with Martha McCallum of Fox News.
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  Speaker 3: Very contentious. He did a really good job, pushed back
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  Speaker 3: so hard that by the end she was on the defensive.
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  Speaker 3: But then, you know, we saw Stephen Miller with Will Kane.
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  Speaker 3: They were talking about it all day. And Republican, like,
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  Speaker 3: Lindsey Graham is all upset about it. So they're all upset.
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  Speaker 3: But again, say... You didn't like the video. Say you
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  Speaker 3: disagree with the video. Say you thought the video was inappropriate.
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  Speaker 3: All things that you can just say if you're a Republican.
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  Speaker 3: Don't have to necessarily call these people traitors that should
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  Speaker 3: be hung. The six Dems released a statement saying that
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  Speaker 3: they're not backing down. calling on all Americans to unite
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  Speaker 3: and condemn the president's call for their murder. Jeffries and
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: Schumer both asked the Capitol Police for special protection for
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  Speaker 3: these members in anticipation of the death threats that are
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  Speaker 3: probably already coming or worse, targeted at those members. Caroline
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  Speaker 3: Leavitt at the White House briefing, she did say, No,
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  Speaker 3: the president does not actually want to execute Democrats.
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  Speaker 1: Phew.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you for clarifying.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, which led to a Reuters headline, in all caps,
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  Speaker 3: Reuters headline that's been sort of bouncing around the internet.
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  Speaker 3: White House says president does not want to execute Democrats,
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  Speaker 3: which is a real headline for the ages. And she
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  Speaker 3: also said, of course, that Democrats, she also falsely claimed
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  Speaker 3: the Democrats in the video urged the military to disobey
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  Speaker 3: legal orders.
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  Speaker 2: The opposite.
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  Speaker 7: The opposite.
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  Speaker 3: The opposite. Um, which, you know, Caitlin Collins yelled to
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  Speaker 3: her as she left the briefing room, like you misquoted Democrats. Uh,
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: Nancy Cordes in the briefing room tried to push back
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: and say like, well, um, they were trying to say
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: if they were legal orders and Levitt's like, well, all
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: of our orders are legal. Oh, okay. Which actually does
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  Speaker 3: fit with their mindset, right?
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  Speaker 2: That is the point. If Trump says it, it's legal.
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  Speaker 2: This is why they don't have to provide, they don't,
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  Speaker 2: they don't need a authorization for use of military force
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  Speaker 2: from Congress. They don't need a declaration of war. They
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: don't even need some of the very sketchy legal rationales
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  Speaker 2: that administrations of both parties, including ours, use to justify
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  Speaker 2: all kinds of things post 9-11. They don't even need that.
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  Speaker 2: If it comes out of Trump's mouth, it is therefore
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  Speaker 2: a valid order. And that is the exact point that
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  Speaker 2: these members of Congress are making.
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  Speaker 7: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: And I do think it's interesting what gets the administration
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  Speaker 3: really angry. And it is when either courts or now
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  Speaker 3: Democratic members of Congress or or the press push back
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: against grave abuses of power and executive overreach because they
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: really do believe, particularly around immigration and national security, that
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: literally anything the president does goes. And when you challenge that,
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: when a judge challenges that, when a Democratic member of
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: Congress challenges that, they can't take it and they go
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  Speaker 3: berserk because they want to have this power. That's core
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: to the rationale for this presidency.
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  Speaker 2: Do you think... That Trump, like I believe Stephen Miller
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  Speaker 2: is genuinely upset about this because any questioning of Trump's
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  Speaker 2: power causes him to do it. And any, honestly, excuse
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  Speaker 2: to threaten Democrats with death is high on his list
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: of things to do. Do you think that this is
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: something they're legitimately worked up about or a fight they're
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: looking for to kind of change the subjects in the
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: midst of this very, very bad week that they're having
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: that we're about to talk about?
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  Speaker 3: Could be both. Um, I could see, I mean, I
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: could definitely see Stephen, Stephen Miller's obviously worked up about it.
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: I could see Stephen Miller spinning up the president about
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  Speaker 3: it because I do think he's a, one of his
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: main primary sources of information, which is partly why we're
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: in such trouble. And then I could imagine if I
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: had to bet the next time we see Trump and
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: he speaks about it, he doesn't sound as crazy as
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: the post's. because sometimes he does that. In real life,
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: he sounds a little, I mean, he sounds crazy, but
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: he sounds less bellicose than some of his posts.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, imagine what sounding in real life as
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: bellicose as these posts would be. It would be to
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: stand in front of the nation and threaten the Democratic
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: members of Congress with state-sponsored execution. So that would be notable,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: I would say.
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: I will say, as I was prepping for the pod
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: and right after this happened, like, I was looking around
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: for the story. It was all over Twitter, of course,
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: and it was on cable. We were watching Fox. Fox
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: did mention it, though the way that Fox framed the
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: whole thing was that Trump lashes back at Democrats for
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: urging military to disobey orders. But it wasn't like leading
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: the New York Times or the Post. I've long stopped
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: my media criticism because I think a lot of journalists work,
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: and tomorrow's headlines may be different, but I don't know
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: if it's just a reflection of how much news there
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: is or how inert we are to Trump saying crazy
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: shit like this. But I don't know, the president of
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: the United States calling for Democrats to be hanged seems
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: like it should be the top story everywhere.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you're right. I think this is as
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: much a media problem as it is a cultural problem
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: where we just have gotten, we are sort of uncomfortably
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: numb to Trump. And this is not, this really is
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: not 2017 stuff where he would say, you know, he
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: called people, like he would just say back then, guilty
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: of treason. And then we would say, Treason is a
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: crime punishable by death. He's calling for the execution of
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: this person. Because back then, as much as we worried
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: about it, there was no follow through. There actually were
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: people trying to prevent him from following through by just
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: distracting him like a small child or a bird with
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: a shiny object. But just we are like 72 hours
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: away from the president telling the attorney general to investigate
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: a bunch of Democrats for no reason as a distraction
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: ploy from the Epstein files and the attorney general doing that.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: So like these words should carry more weight in how
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: they're thought about and how we worry about them. And
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that these people are going to be executed,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: but the president's words matter. And they matter when we
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: know for a fact that the Justice Department will do
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: what the president wants, no matter how ridiculous, how illegal,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: how unconstitutional, how unethical. And so, yeah, it should be
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: a big, huge, important topic of conversation, which is why
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: we're leading the podcast with this.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: Well, and.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Not going to criticize us out there, people.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Just to be clear, even if the Justice Department says
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: tomorrow they're just opening an inquiry, an investigation into these
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: Democrats for that video, it's fucking constitutionally protected free speech
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: that is, again, them restating what the law says.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: In vertical video.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: In vertical video with unfortunate music. Again, but other than that,
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: totally legitimate. Legal, legitimate, totally fine.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: There's some poor Senate digital person who put together a
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: video that was so newsworthy that it has caused a
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: major news cycle. And you have two assholes like us
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: criticizing the music.
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: You know what? I'm proud of you all for doing
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: the video. I just, we need some levity here.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: You need levity? You need some levity in the illegal
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: orders video? Oh, we need levity.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, we need levity.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: I thought you wanted to put some jokes in the video.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: I'm not looking for a fucking punchline in the video. No, no,
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: don't worry about that.
• 16:28
  Speaker 7: All right.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: So even before Trump called for executing members of Congress,
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: it's pretty clear he's been going through something this week.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Wait, before we move on, I think we can't leave
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: this without pointing out that it was only a few
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: months ago that the entire country, led by the Republican Party,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: had a massive conversation about how rhetoric could lead to
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: political violence and how Democrats saying things like Trump is
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: an authoritarian or Trump is a fascist has led to
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: violence against Republicans. And now you have the President of
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: the United States calling for the hanging of members of
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  Speaker 2: Congress and all these same people.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: J.D.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Vance, most prominently among all of them, has been quite
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: quiet about this. Now, not that we are going to
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: be surprised by hypocrisy from these people, but I just
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: think you can't leave the subject without pointing out just
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: how short the Republican concern with political violence actually was.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: And that's why, like, again, I don't really... care about
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: pointing out the hypocrisy at this point i hope that
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: all of these republicans media figures politicians who said that
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: uh political rhetoric can incite violence who wanted to wanted
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: everyone to condemn violence condemn calls for violence condemn language
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: that could incite violence will now condemn this this is
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: their chance to show that it was not just a
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: partisan motivation to saying that but that it was genuine
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: and so if it is genuine then you should call
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: that out. I think, for example, that Jay Jones's texts
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: were fucking gross.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: And crazy and bad. And I would like to hear,
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: I don't know, a handful of Republicans say this about
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump. I heard John Thune say that it was
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: over the top.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: His response, I'm paraphrasing his response, was basically like, I
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: agree with this criticism. I disagree with how he handled it.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: I disagree with his solution to the problem.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: I think Lindsey Graham also said he was a little
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: over the top, but He's never been more upset by
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: anything than the video. So they're all pivoting to the video.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: But I would like a real condemnation. I guess like
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: Don Bacon said the video was bad, and then he
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: said what Trump did was worse. That's the right zone.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: That's the right zone, Don Bacon.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I would say, in fairness, it's 321 on the West
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Coast as we're recording this right now. Not very many
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: people have done it. It is possible that they all
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: have an epiphany between the ending of this recording and
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: when you all hear it on Friday morning, and this
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: will look foolish.
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: But if not.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: But if not, hypocrisy noted.
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• 21:28
  Speaker 3: So even before Trump called for executing members of Congress,
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: it's pretty clear he's been going through something this week.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: Per usual, he tends to go full Mad King when
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: he feels politically cornered, which is why he spent the
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: week lashing out at reporters and selling the rest of
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: us extra hard on his demented version of reality. Here's
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: a sample.
• 21:47
  Speaker 6: Mr.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: President, why wait for Congress to release the Epstein files?
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: Why not just do it now?
• 21:56
  Speaker 7: It's not the question that I mind. It's your attitude.
• 21:59
  Speaker 7: I think you are a terrible reporter. It's the way
• 22:03
  Speaker 7: you ask these questions. You start off with a man
• 22:06
  Speaker 7: who's highly respected, asking him a horrible, insubordinate, and just
• 22:11
  Speaker 7: a terrible question.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: They came up with a new word, affordability.
• 22:16
  Speaker 7: And they look at the.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: We were all about affordability.
• 22:20
  Speaker 7: And everyone assumes that that meant that, no, their prices
• 22:23
  Speaker 7: were high. They said, sir, if George Washington and Abraham
• 22:27
  Speaker 7: Lincoln came back from the dead and they aligned and
• 22:30
  Speaker 7: they went for the president, vice president as a combination,
• 22:34
  Speaker 7: you'd be beating them by 25 points.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: So true, so true. Lots to unpack there. For those
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: who couldn't hear the first clip, that was Trump on
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: Air Force One. telling a female reporter, quiet piggy. So
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: that's something that happened this week. Then he was in
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: the Oval yelling at another female reporter for asking a
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: very respected man a tough question. That would be the
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: Saudi royal prince who had a Washington Post columnist brutally
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: killed and dismembered. You're not supposed to ask someone with
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: that kind of reputation such a bad question.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: In that question, the most honorable word is he calls
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: her question insubordinate, which is very telling about how he
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: thinks about the power dynamics here.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: Yes. And the irony is not lost that he's sitting
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: next to the guy who ordered the killing of a journalist,
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: and Trump is the one who really can't fucking handle
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: journalist questions. Because you know what, Trump? And then- We
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: haven't even talked about this. I know Tommy and Ben
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: cover on Pod Save the World, but just the fucking
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: disgusting way that Trump handled the question about Jamal Khashoggi
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: that came to him in that meeting, in that pool
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: spray with MBS. And he said, well, he was a
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: controversial guy and things happen. Things happen.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Do you know any other controversial people, Donald Trump? And
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: if so, might you be careful about suggesting that that
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: would be justification for, I don't know, being bone-sawed. Honestly,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: the whole– this is not the topic here again– but
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: the entire MBS celebration in the White House, all the
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: business leaders and tech billionaires who went and took the
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: fucking Fox News anchors like Bret Baier and Maria Bartiromo
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: who toasted with MBS after this. The whole thing is
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: so gross. It is so gross. All of them. Some
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: of them are not capable of shame. And Brett Berry
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: may be one of those people who's not capable of shame,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: but the rest of them, Tim Cook, et cetera, should
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: absolutely be embarrassed by the way they handle themselves in
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: this situation. You don't have to toast a murderous dictator.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: That is not a required part of your job.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: He respects power and money and nothing else. And people
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: with power and money, no matter how they behave, no
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: matter how disgusting they may be, no matter what crimes
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: they commit, you have the respect of Donald Trump if
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: you are powerful and rich. And if you are not,
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: it doesn't matter how you're treated. So clearly this is him.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: He's lashing out everywhere. He's pissed. Let's talk about all
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: the things that are causing him to lose his shit.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: And then we can talk about how bad the polls
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: have gotten for him and his party. First up is
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: the Epstein files, the release of which is now required
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: by law, thanks to a bill passed by both houses
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: of Congress in a near unanimous vote and signed by
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: Trump himself. He wasn't happy about it, though, and promised
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: in a very long and rambling post that the Epstein
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: files would backfire on the Democrats. who are just using
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: the issue to distract from all of Trump's incredible victories
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: on things like bringing down costs and inflation. The question
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: now is, which files Trump's Department of Justice will actually
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: release and when? Pam Bondi was asked about this and
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: would only offer variations on, we will follow the law,
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: we will follow the law. How do you think Bondi
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: and Kruger are going to handle this?
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I think you have to go back to the fundamental
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: premise here, which is that Donald Trump is deathly afraid
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: of something in the Epstein files. Now, whether he knows
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: what that thing is, or he just generally has a
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: vague recollection of his conduct in the Palm Beach in
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: the 90s, I don't know. But he thinks there's something
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: very bad and very embarrassing in there. And we know
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: that Pambani will do anything she possibly can to protect
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump from things that are bad and embarrassing. And
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: so my suspicion is that she will use the very
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: understandable provision in the disclosure law, which says, The Justice
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Department does not have to release files that are related
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: to an ongoing investigation as a way to not release
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: some files. Notably, as we mentioned earlier, she started a
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: bunch of new Epstein investigations over the weekend, which could
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: be a way in which a putative reason to prevent
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: disclosure of some of these files.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: And I have to imagine that if she just does
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: that for too long, there's got to be a chance
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: for a lawsuit there. Justice Department or for someone to
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: say like, hey, this is the law. We don't know.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: There's no proof that you're engaging in any kind of investigation.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: You already said that you investigated everything and there was
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: no reason for any additional charges. Now she's saying, oh,
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: new information came to light. OK, what's the new information?
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: I guess potentially the emails from the estate that we've
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: all been pouring over the last couple of weeks. But
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: I don't fucking know.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: And I think those would be in the files, too.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe, though. Why weren't they released?
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Because they didn't release the files. That's the thing.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, they released thousands of pages to the
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: Oversight Committee, but not anything good.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Yes, but not the ones that had Donald Trump's name
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: in them. The difference here is these had Donald Trump's
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: name in them and a bunch of other people. Maybe
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: they have, maybe they don't.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: It's just weird that they came from the estate and
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: not the files.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Well, the estate complied with the subpoena from Congress and
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: the Department of Justice did not, which has gotten lost
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: in this. And there will be political pressure here because
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Republicans now have all voted for this. And they've broken
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: with Donald Trump on their Epstein files once. They think
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: this matters to their base. And if he really drags
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: his feet in a way that is embarrassing to them,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: I think you will see bipartisan political pressure be put
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: on him.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: Believe it or not, there is reason to doubt the
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: basic competence of a Justice Department.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: No, not this Justice Department.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, I know Pam Bondi. Consider the news this week.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: that the DOJ's transparently political prosecution of James Comey may
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: be falling apart. Surprise, surprise. Not exactly shocking when you
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: remember that to get the indictment, Trump had to fire
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: the Trump-appointed U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: and install one of his lackeys, Lindsay Halligan, who had
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: never previously ever tried a case in front of a judge,
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: which shows. And she had to bring the case against
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: Comey because no other prosecutor in the office out of
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: a couple hundred employees would sign the indictment. So she
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: had to do it herself. Then in a hearing this
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: week on Comey's motion to dismiss the case as politically motivated,
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: Halligan admitted to the judge that she never showed the
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: full grand jury the updated version of the indictment after
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: they had to toss one of the counts. Then her
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: second in command admitted that his predecessors had drafted a
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: memo outlining why they didn't bring charges against Comey when
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: Trump ordered them to do so the first time. He
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: admitted on top of that that the Deputy Attorney General's
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: office had told him not to acknowledge the existence of
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: that memo in open court. Right before we recorded, these
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: two morons were filing some paperwork to clean up the
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: indictment issue. But all of these disclosures make it seem
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: much more likely, and the judge made it seem much
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: more likely in his comments, that the case could be
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: thrown out altogether. You know, for a team just dedicated
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: solely to retribution... Does it surprise you they couldn't even
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: pull that off?
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: No, it doesn't actually, because this is one of those
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: things where the job to be the patsy who is
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: supposed to engage in this prosecution that every career attorney
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: already said there was no evidence for, anyone who would
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: accept that job is obviously someone so lacking in competence, skill, intelligence,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: and dignity to actually execute the job well, even as
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: hard as it was. So the fact that Lindsay Halligan
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: was willing to accept this offer is proof that she
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: was going to fuck this up. So yeah, I mean,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: could they have– I guess maybe it is surprising that
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: they were unable to find a person in the entire
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Trump administration who had actually presented evidence in a court
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: of law before to take this job. I mean, I
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: assume there are just attorneys running around everywhere like there
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: is in every government, but Instead, they ended up with
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: this person who had even less experience. Basically, it was
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: that they took a person off the street to do this,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: and that person failed. And I guess that should be
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: encouraging to everyone who's spending a lot of money and
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: going into debt to go to law school.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think even if they got the most
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: skilled attorney you could find on this case, maybe it
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: doesn't get thrown out at this stage. And you don't
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: forget to show the grand jury the updated indictment. But
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: it seems like the facts of the case are the
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: real problem here.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the embarrassing way in which this happened. There's
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: a world in which you truly get the best prosecutor alive,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: send them in there. They take the bad evidence and
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: present it, but they dot all the I's and cross
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: all the T's, and then it just gets tossed or
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: you lose a jury trial. But the fact that you've
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: failed to show them the indictment, that you had to
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: admit basically lying or lying by omission to the court
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: about a piece of exculpatory evidence is just so embarrassing.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: It makes this whole thing look even dumber than it
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: already was. And that is frankly enjoyable to me personally.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: It is enjoyable. And it's not to say that people
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: shouldn't be worried and that this all isn't dangerous, because
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: I do think there are plenty of examples of cases
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: that are borderline. Should they be charged? Should they not
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: be charged? And then the desire to prosecute your perceived
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: enemies is what puts it over the line. I think
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: like the John Bolton case, let's just pretend, let's imagine
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: because we actually don't know all the facts. We haven't
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: seen the case yet, but you could imagine a case
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: where the Biden administration looked into this. They decided not
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: to prosecute, not to bring an indictment against John Bolton.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: Now the Trump team is, maybe there is enough evidence
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: there to convict John Bolton. And it would be because,
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: you know, it wouldn't have happened without a push to
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: politically prosecute his enemy. for Trump's enemy, you know? And
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: so there is a lot of danger there. But I
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: do think when some of these cases like Comey, Letitia James,
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: where we're starting to see more and more of the
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: facts of the case, and it's just like, there is
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: just no wrong. There's not even any illegality. There's just
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: like not even wrongdoing. There's not even like ethical gray
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: areas here. It's just nothing.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: There is a difference when it is someone as prominent
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: and powerful and presumably well off as like a Jim Comey,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: or has the resources of a Letitia James, or is
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: a United States Senator. Where it gets scarier is when
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: it's people further down the food chain, right? Like LaMonica McIver,
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: who is a member of Congress, but is, you know,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: not as well known and is in a very precarious
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: position where when it starts being, you know, immigration.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: Kat Eboo, who's running for Congress.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Kat, you know, people who have just simply protested or
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: argued against or defended immigrants or done something to upset
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: the ICE people. Like, Like there is a– the political
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: prosecutions– because even if you don't get the conviction, you
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: can do tremendous reputational financial damage to someone just by
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: pursuing the case to begin with. And some of the
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: people who are going to get off the front are
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: the people who had the best opportunity to survive that
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: even if they had not fucked up the indictment and
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: possibly ended the case sort of at the outset.
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like Michael Dreeben is Jim Comey's lawyer. He was
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: like one of the best lawyers like practiced before the
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: Supreme– tried cases before the Supreme Court and everything.
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: So related story about the goobers at the DOJ, a
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: federal grand jury in Maryland appears to be looking into
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: whether Trump's mortgage fraud czar, Bill Pulte, and his retribution czar,
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: Ed Martin, may have brought in unauthorized people to go
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: after Adam Schiff for mortgage fraud, potentially Tish James as well.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: It's very confusing what they're looking into here. Because it
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: seems really hard to believe that Trump or Bondi would
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: let a federal grand jury investigate Pulte or Ed Martin.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: But what do you think is going on here? It's
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: also possible that they may be looking into people who
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: tried to say they were Pulte or Ed Martin or
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: worked for them who were unauthorized. Because I can't imagine
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: the government going after the government. I mean, I can
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: in a normal administration, but not this one.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: So I think there are a couple of different things. One,
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: as you say, we don't really know. All we know
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: is that the press have seen subpoenas that have been
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: issued to some conservative activists and congressional candidate, which includes Pulte, Martin,
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: and some other names of people who may or may
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: not have claimed to have been part of– they seem
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: to want to know if there are certain people who
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: would not be involved in the investigation who may be
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: claiming to have had authority to be involved in it.
• 35:29
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: In terms of how this could happen, I think there
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: are two ways it could happen. One is it just
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: slipped through the system.
• 35:36
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Just, you know, like this is not the Cracker Jack
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: team over here at the Department of Justice. And so
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: it just sort of happened. Pam Bondi didn't read an
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: email and went forward. Or the other way is there's
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: a fair amount of reporting that various members of the
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: Department of Justice leadership really hate Bill Pulte. It's like
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: the one thing we all have in common. And Ed Martin.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: And so it's sort of you could see it may be.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: Something about this. Also, soybean farmer Scott Besson, who's almost
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: punched him in the face.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Yes, lots of people are, you know, you can sort
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: of see a world where maybe this came and like
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: the one time Pam Bondi was like, I don't know,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: just proceed. Do as you would do. I'll stay out
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: of this and let that go. So I'll be interested
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: to see where this goes. But either way, it seems
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: quite enjoyable and fun. And like we're having kind of a,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: we started off with potential execution of Democratic members of Congress,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: but the rest of this podcast is pretty light and fun.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: And this is light and fun.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: I will say I did look at, they named the U.S.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: attorney who signed the subpoena and impaneled the grand jury
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: from the Eastern District of Maryland, did get that job
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: in 2022. So I'm sort of wondering now, like that's
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: to maybe didn't get to Pam Bondi's desk and it
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: was actually someone working in the Justice Department who's not
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: a Trump lackey, but I don't know.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: That person might be finding a new job soon.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. We shall see. Then we'll really know.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: You know what's going to happen to that person? They're
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: going to get investigated for mortgage fraud.
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Hope that guy only has one house.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: So anyway, in the midst of all the chaos we
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: just talked about, one thing seems crystal clear. The president
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: is focused like a laser on affordability, Dan. And guess
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: what the American people have started to notice? Allow me
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: to read you a Fox News headline. about their newest poll,
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: hot off the presses. Poll was out Wednesday. Quote, voters
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: say White House is doing more harm than good on economy.
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: That is on foxnews.com. 76% of voters have a negative
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: view of the economy in the Fox poll, worse than
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: the 70% who said the same at the end of
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: Biden's term. Twice as many voters blame Trump instead of
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: Biden for the current state of the economy. Three times
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: as many voters say Trump's economic policies have hurt them
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: versus helped them. And the president's approval rating is 41 percent,
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: 58 percent disapprove. And it is record high disapproval among men,
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: white voters and those without a college degree. Obviously, Trump's
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: core demographics. It is just one poll, but most of
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: them are saying the same thing. I could have read
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: any of them. Nate Silver's average has Trump sitting at 41.5% approval,
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: easily the lowest approval of his second term and close
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: to the lowest of his first term. In fairness, Dan,
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: these polls were taken before Trump spent the week glazing
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: the Saudi royals who've made his family billions of dollars
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: richer and the tech billionaires who are building him a
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: $ 300 million ballroom. You think that'll move the numbers once
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: that information is absorbed?
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: I think that was an excellent use of glazing, Curtis Sliwa.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Good job.
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: For Elijah.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: It's a very... If you know that joke, you're trembling online.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: That's right. No, I don't think that's going to help, John.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: I do not. I think he is in a very, very,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: very precarious place politically. And The fact that he is
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: a lame duck president makes it that much harder to
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: get out of this place. Because when you get to
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: this place, and Obama got in his first term, not
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: this far down, but he got into the low 40s,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: you can come back as the re-election race ramps up,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: as the primary on the other side gets up, and
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: you start doing to, quote, Joe Biden, the voters compare
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: you to the alternative, not the almighty. But when you're
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: a lame duck, this is why you're a lame duck.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: You very rarely come back from that. You were in
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: George W. Bush territory here. You were on the precipice
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: of the bottom falling out. And maybe he can come back.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: Trump has come back from the political graveyard many, many times,
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: but he's in a very, very bad place and he
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: doesn't have a lot of good solutions to get out
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: of this.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: And I will say, I think the bulk of the
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: disapproval is around just the state of the economy and
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: how people are feeling about the economy, right? And I think,
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: you know, Joe Biden was not doing all the corruption
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: that Donald Trump is doing and was not, you know,
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: building the ballroom and taking Qatari jets and all that shit.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: And he still had a very high disapproval around the
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: economy because people, whatever they thought about Joe Biden, they
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: were just pissed that he didn't bring costs down, right?
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: Trump is... adding to people's anger over high prices by
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: every time people look at the news or even casual
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: news observers, what are they seeing? They see, and it's
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: very funny that after the off-year elections, they were like, well,
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: you know, even the White House political advisors were acknowledging like,
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: you know, he's just so focused on foreign policy. And
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: every time there's an event at the White House, he's
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: with all these like foreign leaders or, He's talking about
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: these deals with CEOs. So what does he do this week?
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: Of all the foreign leaders, he's got the Saudi royal
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: family who has just made his family so much money.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: He's talking about deals with them. He's got Elon and
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: the besties and the fucking AI guys at the White
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: House with the Saudis. And they're all fucking taking pictures together.
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: And there's the gold everywhere.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: What are you doing? I will say this one small
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: thing in defense of the White House staff, which is
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: I'm sure the MBS state dinner or whatever you call
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: it and meeting was planned far in advance because I
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: would say many times in my life in the White House,
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: I'd be like, man, we are in a tough place.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: We got to focus on the economy. Let me break
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: out the old week ahead block schedule and see what's
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: happened the next couple of weeks. Motherfucker.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: But you know what?
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: What has Ben Rhodes put on the schedule this week?
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: True, true. But guess who shouldn't have planned a fucking
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: state dinner for Mr. Bonesaw?
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that, yes, that is a different question. But
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: the problem here is they can say that they want
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: affordability to be their message. Affordability can never be their
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: message because Donald Trump, somewhat like Joe Biden, is chemically
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: incapable of saying the things you need to say to
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: appeal to people in affordability because to– For different reasons. No,
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: I think it's for the same reason.
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: It's pride.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: Because to say that costs are too high is to
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: admit you have failed. And this was Biden's problem with
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: the economy always. Even it was the White House talking
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: boards who say the right thing, the written statements who
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: say the right thing, the parts on the teleprompter would
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: say the right things, and then Joe Biden would start
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: saying how great the economy was. And Trump is the
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: same way. And it's actually magnified with Trump because they
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: put in place a policy. Biden just kind of lived,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: failed to... Solve a problem he probably couldn't solve anyway.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Trump has taken a problem he can't solve and made
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: it much worse. And you saw this with– you guys
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: talked about this on the Tuesday pod. But when Kevin
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: Hassett was on the shows, he was like– I mean
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: just truly one of the worst messengers in the history
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: of messaging. But they were like– he's like, I got
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: good news for people. We're eliminating the tariffs on groceries
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: and food and all of this. And they're like, oh,
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: so you're saying the tariffs raise the prices. And he's like, no,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that at all. Just like, no, but
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: if the prices are coming down, that's not going to help.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: He's like, prices are down. I know what you're talking about,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: you know, John, Carl, or whoever he was doing the
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: interview with. It's like, you can't do it. Trump cannot
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: be a good messenger on affordability. It is impossible for
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: him to do.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: Even J.D. Vance, who's supposed to be the smarter one,
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: I guess, between him and Trump.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, congratulations.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: He tried out a version of a better message at
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: an event on Thursday with Breitbart's Matt Boyle, where he
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: was like, look, you know, we've made some progress, but
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: there's a lot more to do. And we really think
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: the economic boom is coming and we're going to work
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: harder for that. And then he's like, what I would
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: ask of the American people right now is patience. Matt,
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: I was like, what, what is that? You're asking people patience.
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: People have been, you have been in the white house
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: for a year. You have raised prices based on your
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: own tariff policy. While you're asking everyone else to be patient,
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: the president and his family have made billions of dollars
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: flaunting it in front of everyone, accepting gold bars, literal
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: gold bars from the Swiss.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: That's the other thing here.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: And other gold-plated things from fucking Tim Apple and all
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: the rest of it. I mean, it's just like, anytime
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: you look at Donald Trump in the White House, you
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: are seeing gold, you are hearing about deals, you are
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: reading stories about his family making money, he's fucking focused
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: on renovations at the White House, that's his main focus,
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: so he can build a $ 300 million ballroom paid for
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: by the oligarchs. And then they're telling everyone else who
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: is struggling to just make ends meet to be patient.
• 44:53
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: And you hit on the exact other point why he
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: cannot succeed with an affordability message is because people are
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: mad about the economy. Absolutely. And they would probably be
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: willing to give Trump a little bit of that patience that.
• 45:09
  Speaker 7: J.D.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Vance is asking for, except for two things. One, he
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: keeps saying he already solved the problem. And we know
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: from focus groups in circa 2009, that will cause people
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: to flip the fucking table over when you tell them
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: you solved the problem and they're still upset. Because in
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: that Fox poll, majorities of Republicans believe that the costs
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: of groceries, health care, housing, all of these things are
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: up over last year. Not up over Trump 2017 or
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: 2020 pre-COVID. Since Trump got into office, these things are up.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: Majorities of Republicans believe that. Then the other issues is
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: they turn and they turn on the TV or they
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: open up their phone and Trump's doing everything but solve
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: this problem.
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: You're right.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: He's piling on these rich people. He's giving $ 20 billion
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: to Argentina. He's building the ballroom. He's doing all this.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: He's rubbing it in people's faces at the exact moment.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: He's doing everything you possibly can.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: They're talking about how they're going to cut food stamps
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: and people on food stamps are lazy and And Russ
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: vote is talking about how he's like, he's just delighting.
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: And here comes the Reaper. Remember? And he's like delighting
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: and cut and fucking cutting jobs and firing people and
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: laying people off. I mean, it's just, it's wild how
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: little they fucking care.
• 46:27
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• 48:00
  Speaker 3: So Trump's stink is starting to rub off on Republicans
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: in Congress. A new NPR Marist poll has Democrats up
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: 14 points on the generic ballot, their largest lead in
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: the Marist poll since 2017. That is a bit of
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: an outlier. A national poll from Marquette has Democrats up five.
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: I think the overall average right now is about Democrats
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: plus six, which is still pretty significant lead this far
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: out and larger than it has been over the last
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: several months or last year even. Trump and Republicans have
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: been hoping to hang on to their majority through some
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: Last minute gerrymandering, though that scheme also hit a roadblock
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: this week when federal judges threw out Texas's new map,
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: which was intended to deliver five extra Republican seats in
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: a two to one decision in which a Trump appointee
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: joined an Obama appointee. The panel said the new district
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: lines constituted an illegal racial gerrymander. Trump has appealed to
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: the Supreme Court, but Trump's redistricting blitz already wasn't going well.
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: A judge in Utah ruled against Republicans and implemented a
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: map that could give Democrats another seat. Probably it will
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: give Democrats another seat if it stands. Yeah, it's like
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: a Harris 23 or 24 district.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: 23, 24, yeah.
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: And Republican holdouts in the Indiana state legislature appear to
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: have sunk redistricting there, even though Trump has been going
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: after them by name and threatening to fund primaries against them. Meanwhile,
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: here in California, we passed primaries. 50 in response, and
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: Democrats in Virginia are now attempting new maps that could
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: add two to three Democratic seats there. It looks like
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: in total, Democrats could pick up as many as nine seats,
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: while Republicans' best case scenario in places like Missouri, North Carolina,
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: and Ohio would give them about four If Ron DeSantis
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: succeeds in Florida, it could give them another two to five.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's probably three, maybe.
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: And then we'll see what the Supreme Court says about
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: Texas and whether or not they overturn a key part
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: of the Voting Rights Act in time for the midterms,
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: which could net Republicans even more seats throughout the South,
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: particularly if it happens and they're allowed to change the
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: maps before the midterms. What is your take on this
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: Texas situation and overall thoughts about how the math works?
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: is netting out right now or could net out?
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: The Texas thing is legitimately funny. I'm going to stipulate
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: that I'm going to presume the Supreme Court is going
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: to come to Trump's rescue here in some way, shape,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: or form. Even before Trump, the Roberts Court has been
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: very anti-voting rights act. I am operating the assumption that
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: they will get their five seats. But the thing that's
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: funny about it is we had Gavin Newsom on the
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: podcast right after he announced this thing. And one of
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: the big arguments was we're putting in a provision that
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: says if our maps only go into effect if Texas
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: does it. Well, then Texas did it like a week later.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: So they took that provision out of the law. And
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: so the California maps stay no matter what Texas does.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: And it would be just so goddamn funny if after
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: all of this, everything Trump did, they come out of
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: this down a few seats. Very amusing. On the math.
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: Wait, before we get off that, because I thought you
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: were going to say something else was amusing about it,
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: which is how fucking stupid Texas was in giving the
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: reason for the gerrymandering.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, well, because Trump also told them to do it,
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: and it's not a good fact pattern for them.
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: So just so people know, partisan redistricting is allowed because
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: the Supreme Court has said that. What they haven't done
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: yet is overturn redistricting because of race. So if Texas
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: had merely said, we are redrawing the maps because we
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: want to help Donald Trump get five seats, the map
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: would be legal right now. But instead, Trump's Department of Justice, again,
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: a real theme today.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: The Department of Justice sent a fucking letter to Texas
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: that was like, hey, we want you to racially gerrymander.
• 51:51
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: Basically. And then when they had the case, they kept saying, no, no,
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: we didn't. And they're like, well, what about the letter?
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: The fact pattern is clear that you did racially gerrymander.
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: And I agree that I would not be surprised if
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: the Supreme Court stepped in here to save them. But remember,
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: in the Voting Rights Act case, what the Supreme Court,
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: or at least what the majority could argue is, by
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: drawing majority-minority districts, it is ensuring in the South that
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: that black voters have representation, that by drawing districts that
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: are heavily filled with black voters, that that is racial
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: gerrymandering and that you can't be doing that. So that's what,
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, we disagree, but that's what Roberts and Kavanaugh
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: and them potentially could be arguing here or could decide.
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: In Texas, and I think this is why you had
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: a Trump appointee say that this was illegal. In Texas,
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: they are basically saying, we did this to.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: For racial reasons.
• 52:53
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: Which I think even if the Roberts Court strikes down
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: the Voting Rights Act would say is wrong.
• 53:00
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: As I understand it with my non-law school basis, the
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: issue in the case is not that you're in the
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court case. It's not that you're allowed to racially gerrymander.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: It's that majority minority districts are not a constitutional solution
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: to racial gerrymandering.
• 53:19
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: Now, to be clear, you would still people would racial
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: gerrymander out the wazoo if it struck down. They just
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: would not put it in a letter. That's the difference.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: Right. You can easily gerrymander, say that it's for partisan reasons,
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: and it could be very racial in nature.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, it would have to be, given the demographics would
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: have to be.
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: So, all right, considering the direction the polls are headed,
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: how are you feeling about the House in general in
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: a scenario where Republicans do pick up A bunch of seats,
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: but maybe not as many seats as we thought they would.
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: Let's take striking down Section 2 of the Voting Rights
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: Act happening on a schedule, which would really have to
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: be in the first couple of months of next year.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: Because South has primaries in March and April. And to
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: make this really work, you kind of have to do
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: it before the primaries because you have to redraw the
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: maps and all of that. So let's just pretend like
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: that's not going to happen before the 2020 elections. The...
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: Nate Cohn went through and did this math about all
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: the different paths of what could happen. Let's say everything
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: goes the way we thought. Texas maps come back. Democrats
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: get some seats in Virginia. Republicans get some in Florida.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: We really only have to win the popular vote by
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: three points, I think, to very likely take the House.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: We'll win the generic ballot by three points. I think
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: we're well positioned either way, but obviously we want to
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: build as big a majority as possible. And so you need,
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: you know, to use the phrase we've used before, too
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: big to rank. Like you got to, you want to
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: get to a bigger number. Republicans are not, I do
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: not think absent the voting rights act able to rig
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: this in a way in which it is out of
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: reach for Democrats. Like we are in a political situation
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: where a majority is very, very viable. It's, you know,
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: harder than it should be because of some of these
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: re gerrymandering, but it's, we can win it.
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: And even if the Texas map goes into effect, we've
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: said this before, but if there is a large Democratic wave,
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: it also, the gerrymander may have backfired in that they
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: may have drawn districts where they think that they are
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: going to be safe Republican, but in a wave election,
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: they are not Republican.
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: They are not safe.
• 55:25
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: And this is like, there might be some Republicans in
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: Texas who are actually quietly grateful about these maps being
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: struck down because They really drew these maps based on
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump's 2024 performance with Texas Latinos. And as I
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: pointed out on this podcast before, if you look at
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Beto O'Rourke's 2022 performance with Texas Latinos, he actually won
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: Latinos in a race he lost by a lot. And
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: then that's in the past. Look at, sorry, in Beto's
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: 2022 governor's race. But then if you look at what
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: happened in New Jersey, in particular, where the two most
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: Latino-heavy cities lost moved 50 points in Mikey Schill's direction
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: compared to where they were in 2024, that should really
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: scare the shit out of Republicans. You're really building levies
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: when you draw districts. And the more you dilute your
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: base by trying to pick up more seats, you lower
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: the levy. So you don't need as big a wave
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: to go over them and win. So they're at risk
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: here if we have a big enough wave. It doesn't
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: have to be 14 points, which would be a net
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: gain of about 65 to 70 seats, I think. But
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: something that looks like 2018 would be very worrisome for Republicans.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: And things, at least at this point, are kind of
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: heading in that direction.
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: So reasons for hope, reasons for hope. One of the
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: many reasons Congress is about as popular as herpes right
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: now might have to do with- Did you look up.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: Herpes polling numbers?
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, you did, confirmed it.
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: It's definitely, it's like right around chlamydia, but definitely, but
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: better off than syphilis.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, syphilis, never a favorite.
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: Might have to do with the recent string of scandals
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: in the House this week that range from embarrassing to
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: corrupt to allegedly criminal. First, there was the revelation that
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: Democrat Chuy Garcia of Illinois hid his last-minute retirement announcement
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: from everyone except his chief of staff so that she'd
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: be the only candidate who could get the required 2,000
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: signatures in time to meet the filing deadline, a move
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: that led Democratic Congresswoman Marie Lusing Camp Perez of Washington
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: to force a vote rebuking Garcia that passed the House
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: on Tuesday. Then there was a talk of a censure
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: resolution against Democrat Stacey Plaskett, the non-voting delegate for the
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: Virgin Islands, for texting with Jeffrey Epstein during a House
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: Oversight Committee hearing with Michael Cohen in 2019, which she
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: claims was about getting information from one of her constituents,
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein, because Epstein Island is in the Virgin Islands.
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: And a retaliatory move from Democrats condemning Florida Republican Corey
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: Mills for sexual misconduct and threatening violence, among many other
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: things that continue to come out even as we record.
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: The Plaskett measure failed on the floor with some Republican defections,
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: and the Mills measure essentially just went away, leading some
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: Republicans to accuse their leadership of cutting a backroom deal,
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: saying like, we won't censure or rebuke Plaskett if you
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: let the Mills thing go. On top of all that,
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: Florida Democrat Sheila Cherfilis McCormick has been charged in federal
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: court with stealing $ 5 million in FEMA disaster relief funding
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: awarded to her family's health care company to register people
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: for COVID vaccines, of all things, and funneling that money
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: to her congressional campaign. Cherfilis McCormick says she's innocent, but
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: House Republicans are pursuing an immediate expulsion vote anyway. Let's
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: start with MGP. Going after Chewie Garcia. What do you
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: think of that?
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: We can have a debate about whether censure was the
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: right way to do it. But. I think she did
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: the exact right thing to be critical of him for it.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: I am pretty disgusted by the Democrats who reflexively defended
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: what happened here. We cannot be the party who is
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: talking about democracy all of the time and how corrupt
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump is and then turn a blind eye to
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: what is a very obvious infringement on democracy and a
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: bit of political corruption. He rigged the system for his
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: chosen successor. And the other thing is just about this
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: that upsets me is that one of the things that
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: separates us from the Republicans is the Trump era. And
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: really the Republicans even before the Trump era is that
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: Democrats had been willing to criticize other Democrats for doing
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: wrong things. And if all of a sudden we're going
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: to turn a blind eye to obvious wrongdoing, just because
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: the person who did the wrongdoing is on our side,
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: is we are becoming more like the Republicans than I
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: am comfortable with. And now that's not a majority of
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: our party. A lot of people did speak up. But
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: there really was this reflexive defense of Garcia that I
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: thought was just really unfortunate.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: The defense to me was really troubling and kind of surprising,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: especially from some members that I wouldn't have expected to
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: do that. And the first offense that everyone tried to
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: said was, okay, well, this was, you know, he, he
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: announced his retirement last minute because he has health problems
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: and his doctor, his cardiologist told him that he couldn't
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: do it. And also he's just dealing with like the
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: recent death of his daughter and he's raising the grandkids.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, understood. That's horrible. And like retire announcing
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: that you're retiring last minute in itself, Is not the problem.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: The problem is when he decided he was going to retire,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: even if it was last minute, he needed to tell
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: everyone at the same time and not just his chief
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: of staff, because she she clearly then had time to
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: get a couple thousand signatures to file, which means that
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: other candidates who were interested could have had that time
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: to file. And then they were like, well, he didn't
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: really know, and he didn't have anything to do with it.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: And then you look at the petition, and the Chicago
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: Tribune found the petition, and he's the first signature on
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: her filing deadline petition. So I'm like, and then, so
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: then that was the first thing. And then the next
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: defense was, well, Klusenkamp-Perez, you know, she was grandstanding, and
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: it shouldn't have been a resolution, and why are we
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: doing this? It should have gone to the ethics committee.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: And it's like, okay, if you want to say As
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: a Democratic member or Democratic staff or strategist or all
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: these people who are defending Garcia, if you want to
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: say what he did was wrong and it disgusts me
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: that there's this kind of corruption, blah, blah, blah. Also,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: I think it shouldn't have been a resolution and it
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: should have gone to the ethics committee. Fine.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: But most of the people that were complaining about MGP
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: introducing this resolution didn't even say that what Garcia did
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: was wrong. And I don't understand why you just can't
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: say the words, it was wrong. Because otherwise, if you're
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: just making excuses and you're talking about process, we think
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: you think it's right.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. There's obviously a moral component to this. And there's
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: also just political malpractice here, which is just the people
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: think with some good reason that the political system is
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: broken and corrupt. And then when there is an example
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: of corruption in a broken system, and we turn a
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: blind eye simply because that person's on our team, we
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: validate everything they think. And if we are going to
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: actually not just take the House by a few seats,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: but if we're going to take the Senate, win the
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: White House, and actually rebuild the coalition that can govern
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: this country, the people, the American people have to believe
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: that Democrats have the courage and the integrity to change
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: the broken political system. And when we do things like this,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: it causes people to think, A, we don't, we will
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: not do that. And B, maybe just to throw up
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: their hands and say, fuck this, I'm not even going
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: to get involved in politics. And that is a loss
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: for us. That's a loss for democracy. It's just, this
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: just doesn't seem that complicated to me. And just some
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: of the conversations were happening about this on the floor
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: of the house on Twitter were so mind boggling. Like, yes,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: I'm sure, like he is in a, Chuy Garcia is
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: going through a tough period in his life. You are
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: colleagues with him. I understand that. But this is not
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: high school. He's not the guy who just sits at
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: your lunch table. You have to call it out.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: It's the fucking Biden, it's the Biden shit all over again, right?
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: It's like these people have spent so long in Washington
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: and know all of their colleagues and are friends with them.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: And I get it. I'm like, you know, still friends
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: with all of my friends from Washington, right? But like,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: if you are a public servant, you have to put
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: the country first and your constituents first. And if that
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: means a tough conversation with your friend because you have
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: to criticize them, even if you admire their lifetime of service,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: which clearly a lot of people do with Garcia and
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: good for them, then you have to do that. Like
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: that's just not, and the other defense that didn't, I
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: didn't really buy at all was like, well, no one
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: said anything when a Republican house member did this last
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: in 2024. I forget the guy's name. And I'm like, okay.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: We should have said something then too.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 3: But this is also the problem with taking we got
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: to fight fire with fire to like the logical extreme
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: because it's like they do. They don't play by the rules.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: So we shouldn't play by the rules kind of thing.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: And it's like there are times when that's true in
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: the in the redistricting fight. That is true because they
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: are making a power grab. And it means that like
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: we might not you know, they might take over the
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: house unfairly. And so like we got to fight back.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: But with something like this, it goes back to your
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: political point. Even if you put aside the moral and
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: ethical case for it, at least think that if you're
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: a voter and you have to choose between, okay, well,
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: the Republicans did this in 24 and then the Democrats
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: did this in 26. Don't we want a contrast?
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: Don't we want to show people that there's actually a
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: real choice between the two parties? Isn't that how you win?
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: Progressives are always saying that on on ideas and on policy.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: Why are we going to just be Republican light with
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: some policy? So why would we think that isn't the
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: case when we're talking about corruption?
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: It's so dumb.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: It's crazy. It's crazy. What do you think about this whole,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: so now everyone's like censoring, expulsions, rebukes. Two Democrats, I
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: think it's Don Bacon and Don Beyer, Don Beyer's a Democrat,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: Don Bacon's Republican, are now trying to raise the threshold
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: for a censure because they feel like it's like a
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: race to the bottom with like both parties censoring each other.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't be opposed to that necessarily, but I also
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: really don't like, it's such a, again, such a fucking
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: Washington inside thing. It's like, you are censured. It's like.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So sure. Raise the threshold. Don't raise the threshold.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: Who really cares? Like it, like this is a little
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: out of control. I'm just via tweets. I'm learning about
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: new censures and honestly, new members of Congress. I didn't
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: know existed before this all at the same time. So
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: that's exciting.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: The member who got indicted for the, for that, awful
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: FEMA thing for stealing $ 5 million. Never, never heard of
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: her before.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: Like if you told, if we were playing like two
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: truths and a lie with a member of Congress with
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: three names, I would say that was the lie, like
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: for sure. But the thing you have to do here
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: is you need the ethics committee to work. Like there
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: needs to be an actual process of adjudication that is
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: viewed to be bipartisan and independent of the leadership. We
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: haven't been in that place for a very long time,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: but that for this to really work you have to
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: do that because the censure thing is fake. I mean, like,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: I guess it matters. It obviously matters, but there's no
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: consequences that come with it. Do you wear a scarlet
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: C to the house floor for a while? I don't
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: really know. So it's like we're sort of, it looks,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: it just seems ridiculous. And so raised threshold don't, but
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: we need an actual process that holds these people accountable
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: that you can, that people, members and the public can trust.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: One last thing before we turn it over to Tommy
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: and Yasmin from Swing Left. On Friday- Trump is set
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: to meet at the White House with his new arch nemesis,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: Zoran Mamdani, who he referred to as communist mayor Zoran
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: Kwame Mamdani when announcing the meeting. We don't have a
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: lot of details, though we'll probably know more by the
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: time you're listening to this. But Mamdani said in an
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: interview on Wednesday night, quote, I want to just speak
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: plainly to the president about what it means to actually
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: stand up for New Yorkers and the way in which
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: New Yorkers are struggling to afford the city. Both men
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: love going after each other, but Mamdani has a lot
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: on the line. The administration froze, or at least claimed
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: to freeze, $ 18 billion in federal funding for New York
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: City infrastructure projects during the shutdown. And Trump said before
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: the election that he'd be, quote, highly unlikely to contribute
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: more federal funds beyond the absolute minimum if Mamdani won.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: Asked about this in the briefing on Thursday, Caroline Levitt said,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: we'll see how the meeting goes. All right, you're Zoran Mamdani.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: You're going to the White House to meet Donald Trump.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: How would you advise him to handle that meeting?
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: Would I accept an invitation from Donald Trump to go
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: to the White House right after he spent several days
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: with MBS? Probably not, it seems. No, in all seriousness,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: if we can decide whether we want to cut that
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: joke or not.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 3: Maybe live stream it so we're.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: All there with you. Everyone knows, yes. I think the
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: way for Mondani to think about this is you have
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: to go, but you want to put yourself somewhere between
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: like one of these leaders like Keir Starmer who comes
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: in like bearing letters of congratulations from Kings or gold
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: bars or- No glazing. Yeah, no, that's, thank you. Thank you,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: no glazing. Do not glaze, but also you don't want
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: to be Zelensky, right? I think you want to come
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: in and you want to be an advocate for New
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: York and for all New Yorkers. And that's what you're
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: there to do. And we're going to disagree on things
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: and we're going to, where we can work together to
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: help New York, we will. be very tough and strong
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: about no National Guard, about ICE raids, about if there
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: are places, areas we can work together to lower prices,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: we should do that. And you have to come off
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: as tough because you cannot be, you're not like so
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: tough that you seem like you're performative, but Trump only
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: respects strength. And so if you go in there and
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: you see, which is why I think some of the
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: mistakes these leaders are making, like it's short-term gains by
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: getting through the meeting without getting yelled at by being
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: so obsequious in the meeting, but you want to seem
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: like you're not a punk. And so, and you should,
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: and Zoran should have confidence in this because the meeting's
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: going to happen. Everyone, like I assume some part of
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: it will be, there'll be a pool spray or whatever else,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: but also after the meeting, when it comes time to
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: spin everything that happened, he can dominate the media space
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: in a way that honestly Trump can't. Like he can
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: go out and he can do every podcast, every interview, every,
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: all the social media and put his spin on events
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: in a way that Trump really will not have the
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: time or energy to do. And Trump certainly won't get
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: out of his bubble to do it.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: I think the most important thing for him is to
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: be tough and strong on behalf of the people.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all about New York.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: It's all about New York. Do not get into a
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: personality fight with Donald Trump. Do not like get into
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: the mud with him on that. You can be tough
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: and strong on like, hey, I'm representing a city where
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: people can't afford to live and need help with costs. And,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: you know, like, and I'm going to city of immigrants.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 7: Yes. Yes.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 3: You could like, like he was on election night about, uh,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: you know, the city is now run by an immigrant
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 3: and you're gonna have to come through us. And so
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: I do think he can be tough on behalf of
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: the people in New York and should be, but like
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: Trump will try to draw him into just a personal
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: back and forth. And I don't think that helps him.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: I don't think performative toughness so it can go viral
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: online is, I don't think that's, Zoran style anyway. So like,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: I don't, I actually don't think that will happen, but
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: I do think that's, you could imagine, you know, you
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: can imagine that happening, or at least that's what Trump
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 3: wants to happen.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: You're like, his goal is to be an advocate for
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: New York. He is the, he's about to be the
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: New York mayor. He's going to run for election as
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: New York mayor. He wants people to think he's fighting
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: for New York and not trying to, not trying to
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: fight some national political battle.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 7: Yep.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: All right, one quick thing before we go to break.
• 1:11:08
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• 1:11:50
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  Speaker 8: excited to be joined by Yasmin Raji. She is the
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 8: executive director of Swing Left, an organization I'm sure lots
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 8: of listeners know about. But Swing Left has recently launched
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 8: something called Ground Truth, which is this new nationwide program
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 8: aimed at fundamentally changing how Democrats connect with voters. And
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 8: we want to talk all about it. Yasmin, thanks for
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 8: being here.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me, Dami. I'm excited.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 8: I'm really excited to talk with you because look, we
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 8: spent a bunch of time off mic now too, together.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 8: And what's cool about what you guys are doing is
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 8: you are experimenting, you're testing and evolving the way we
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 8: do voter contact and reach voters. But unlike many other
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 8: organizations in this space, you're actually willing to talk about
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 8: it publicly, which is so great because how else are.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 4: We going to learn about it?
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 8: And I think it's especially important now after the 2024
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 8: cycle when A lot of people feel like we spent
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 8: all this time, we spent all this money, and then
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 8: we lost.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 4: What was the point?
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 8: You guys are actually iterating and trying to make it better.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 8: And I think that's just great. So thank you for
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 8: being here.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 5: Well, thank you. Thank you. I think it feels really obvious.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 5: I know you and I have talked about this before,
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 5: but it feels obvious in a moment of such consequence
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 5: when the stakes are so high. And we obviously know
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 5: that things didn't work, not just because we lost, uh,
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 5: and the losses have been incredibly painful for so many
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 5: of us, for all of us as a country. Um,
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 5: but it's also like, we're losing not just elections, we're
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 5: losing so many of the voters that we used to
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 5: have trust with. And so I think from our perspective,
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 5: it feels like a no brainer to try to do
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 5: things differently. And, um, I think what's been jarring is
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 5: just how little of that is happening. And so excited
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 5: to talk more with you, but we really believe that
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 5: we're in a moment of, if we're not taking big swings,
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 5: we're not taking some real risks and we're not trying, well,
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 5: trying new things. And then also just being brutally honest
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 5: about things that might not make us look good, but
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 5: at least are truthful about what we need to do differently.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 5: Then we're not taking this moment as seriously as we
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 5: ought to.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 8: Yeah, no, I want to get into some of those
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 8: things that, as you said, might not make previous efforts
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 8: look good. But I think when you're asking your most
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 8: committed volunteers and donors to give you their time, they
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 8: need to believe that it's worth it. So that's why
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 8: it's important. So tell me about Ground Truth. What is
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 8: it and what did you guys.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 4: Learn from this initial pilot program that I think just
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 4: wrapped up, right?
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so Ground Truth is our big swing in this moment.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 5: And I think just a little bit of kind of
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 5: background information. Swing Left, we were founded right around the
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 5: same time as you all at Crooked in response to
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 5: the election of Donald Trump. We have always been about
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 5: making sure that volunteers and donors are pointing their time
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 5: and money toward the most competitive elections because our overall
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 5: way of seeing things is that we cannot have progress
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 5: without power. So that is a constant. That's been constant
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 5: from 2017 until now. But so many of the things
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 5: that we've done, whether that's sending you know, thousands of
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 5: volunteers to go knock on doors in competitive swing districts
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 5: near them, you know, directing dollars, et cetera. So many
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 5: of the things that we've done have been downstream of
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 5: bad decisions and broken infrastructure. And so, you know, with
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 5: this moment of really high stakes, one of the things
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 5: that we have felt really strongly about in the kind
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 5: of post 2024 election period is even with the wins
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 5: that we just had a We can't take anything for
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 5: granted and we can't take those wins as an erasure
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 5: of a real trust problem that Democrats have all across
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 5: the country. And so we think that until we work
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 5: really hard to rebuild that trust, we are not going
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 5: to win in the meaningful ways that we need to.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 5: And the first step of building trust is listening. And
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 5: so Ground Truth is our effort to reimagine voter contact,
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 5: as you said rightly in the framing. really anchoring on
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 5: deeper listening, more time with voters, not two weeks before
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 5: the election in a sort of handing a pamphlet and
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 5: keeping it moving every 90 seconds, but starting well over
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 5: a year before the election. Our volunteers started going out
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 5: and talking to voters September 6th, way earlier than they
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 5: ever have in a competitive House district. And they are
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 5: having deep, open-ended conversations where they are talking not just
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 5: to ride or die Democrats, They're talking to everybody. So
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 5: they're knocking on every door because, again, baked into some
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 5: of the assumptions that we've made election after election after
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 5: election are that we know everything about voters and we
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 5: can predict their behaviors. And we know exactly who's someone
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 5: who's always on our side and we just need to
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 5: get them out. And who do we need to persuade?
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 5: And those assumptions have not been right, right? Or else
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 5: we would be better at predicting elections. So we're talking
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 5: to everybody. And what our volunteers are doing is opening
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 5: with a question of you know, saying that I'm a
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 5: volunteer with Ground Truth, which is a program to help
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 5: Democrats do a better job of listening. And then they
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 5: just ask, how do you feel about the direction of
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 5: our country? And I'm excited to get into what we,
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 5: you know, have learned in our pilot, what we've heard.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 5: But I think the biggest surprise from our volunteers is
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 5: just how hungry people are to talk, including people who
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 5: really disagree with us on policies and on issues. And
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 5: we can get into the sort of, you know, what
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 5: that tells us about where we are as a country
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 5: and the social isolation and so on. But people want
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 5: to be heard and people have a lot to share.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 5: And our volunteers are not policy experts. They're great listeners.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 5: So I'll pause there and excited to share more about
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 5: some of the substance of what we've learned as well.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I do want to.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 8: Dig into the willingness to have conversations because I think
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 8: it's a bit counterintuitive, at least for me. But also,
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 8: I just want to start with saying like, look, anyone
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 8: who's canvassed before has probably had a very different experience
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 8: than what you're describing. Like a few weeks before the election,
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 8: you go to some office, you go to some staging location,
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 8: you get like a clipboard with some you know, houses
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 8: or dresses on it, or you download an app, you
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 8: get your turf, and then you knock until you run
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 8: out of houses. Most of the time, no one's home,
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 8: you put a little leaflet in the door. And then
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 8: you kind of leave thinking like, was that valuable? Like,
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 8: did I did I do something there? Maybe you have
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 8: a conversation or two, where you feel great about that person.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 8: What do you think Democrats are missing when they just
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 8: sort of execute that traditional kind of field program?
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 5: So much. I mean, first of all, I think we
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 5: are not being honest about just how broken we all
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 5: know that process is. And we keep telling volunteers, trust me,
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 5: trust me, this is the most important thing that you
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 5: can do. And we're pointing to real research, but not
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 5: the research that we are following in those canvases, right?
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 5: And so, you know, I heard from a state party
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 5: leader as we were coming up with this program who said,
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 5: you know, Yasmin, I think voter contact is going to
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 5: be done in two election cycles in the So there
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 5: is quiet behind-the-scenes recognition of the problem, and the problems
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 5: are intuitive, right? We're talking to people too late. The
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 5: conversations are too superficial. And again, we are talking to
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 5: the same voters over and over and over. Something you
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 5: didn't mention, but I know we hear from almost everybody
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 5: who's canvassed is, man, I was just talking to someone
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 5: for the seventh, eighth, ninth time, and they're really frustrated, right?
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 5: And so for us, what ground truth, the kind of
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 5: ingredients of what we need to do differently is, first
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 5: of all, We can talk to people who are very
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 5: different from us and we disagree with if we have
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 5: more time, right? And so that's why we've got to
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 5: start early. Number two is we have to listen. We
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 5: can't just say, you know, I'm here with this campaign
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 5: and I need you to do something. That is not
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 5: how humans do anything effectively, right? And we just keep
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 5: doing that over and over again. And then importantly, something
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 5: that we've heard for years from our volunteers, and maybe
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 5: you've experienced this too, is sometimes, rarely, but sometimes, they
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 5: have a really deep, meaningful conversation with a voter. And
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 5: that person really opens up to them. And they talk
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 5: about how they feel about our country, how they feel
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 5: about their community, et cetera. And those volunteers painstakingly write
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 5: in the margins of their clipboard or in the notes
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 5: section of their canvassing app all of the things that
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 5: they heard, all of the things that that voter needs
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 5: to be convinced to vote at all or to vote
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 5: for the Democrat. And then they walk back to the
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 5: field office And they hand it over to a well-meaning
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 5: organizer who has nowhere to put that information. And so
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 5: all that organizer is incentivized to care about is how
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 5: many doors did you knock? How many people were home?
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 5: And then the sort of very superficial data there of
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 5: how many people talked about abortion or the economy or whatever.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 5: And what our volunteers are experiencing and what our program
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 5: does is when that volunteer has that deep, meaningful conversation,
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 5: which is, by the way, two thirds of the people
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 5: who are answering the doors are having conversations of over
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 5: 10 minutes. So that's just like way outside of the
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 5: imagination of how we're used to this stuff. When they
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 5: have that deep and meaningful conversation, the volunteer hits the
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 5: record after the conversation is done. They've taken notes on paper.
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 5: They hit record on their canvassing app and they repeat
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 5: back everything that they just talked about. We give them
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 5: the guidance of it's like a doctor would repeat back
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 5: what they just talked about with a patient during a
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 5: patient visit. So it's nonjudgmental. You're not editorializing. If there's
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 5: direct quotes that you wrote down in your scribbles, you
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 5: repeat back those direct quotes so that we're really able
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 5: to understand that voter. And then all those notes that
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 5: usually just get thrown out, what happens on the back
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 5: end is we run AI, not on replacing the human conversation,
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 5: but on making sense of as people are talking, as
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 5: they're sharing really personal things about their families. And when
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 5: we hear about voter's crying on the doors in these conversations.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 5: These are really real and raw conversations that people are having.
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 5: All of that on the back end, we are not
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 5: just aggregating to say, how many people are talking about
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 5: X and Y issues? What are the feelings behind those things?
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 5: And importantly, those don't live and die in a swing
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 5: left database. We share all of that data, thanks to
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 5: a new law that passed or a new federal election rule.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 5: We share that all back with the campaigns. So that
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 5: we are not ourselves just sort of analyzing what does
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 5: the voter care about? How should we follow up with
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 5: them on maybe some material needs, like if they can't
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 5: afford diapers or whatever the case may be? But also,
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 5: how do we make sure that the candidate who structurally
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 5: most of our candidates are spending way too little time
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 5: actually going out and talking to voters, not because they
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 5: don't want to, but because that's not what they're incentivized
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 5: to do. They're incentivized to spend most of their time fundraising.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 5: We get all that back to them so that they
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 5: have a picture, not just through a poll, not just
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 5: through a focus group that usually they can't even afford
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 5: until very late in a cycle of week to week.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 5: Here's what voters are saying. Here's what they need. And
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 5: here's where your trust deficit is that may not even
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 5: be about the candidate, but more broadly about the Democratic
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 5: Party and Democratic brand.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 8: Yeah, but look, it just strikes me as a really
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 8: smart and additive use of AI technology to in service
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 8: of a real problem, which, as you described, which is
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 8: a lot of members of Congress get elected. You go
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 8: to Washington, you aren't home in the district much. When
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 8: you are, you're fundraising or you're going on trips. Like
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 8: you just don't have, you lose touch with the people
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 8: who voted for you and you could see it happening.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 8: You talk to a freshman member, they are on it.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 8: They are like locked in. Talk to someone who's been
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 8: there for 20 years, different story. So, you know, this
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 8: might surprise listeners a little bit because I talk about
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 8: politics for a living, but canvassing is not my comfort zone.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 8: I don't, like it takes me like 10 minutes to
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 8: get warmed up. I'll get there, but I don't love it.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 8: Mostly because when I knock on someone's door, I assume
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 8: that they feel about me the way I feel about
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 8: people who knock on my door, which is I tend
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 8: to hate them and I want them to go away.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 8: The baby's crying and my dog starts barking and I'm
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 8: just like, what is happening here? But one of the
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 8: big takeaways from Ground Truth was voters really want.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 4: These deeper conversations.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 8: I think you said like two thirds of the people
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 8: you connected with wanted to talk for up to 10
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 8: or 15 minutes.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 4: Why is that? What's the best way to use that time?
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 3: Is it just listening?
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 4: Is there some persuasion like, What did you guys learn?
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, one of our volunteers wrote to us yesterday.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 5: We launched a bunch of the results of our pilot
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 5: and she wrote back, you know, something that really strikes
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 5: me is every time people talk about listening, they usually
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 5: mean listen to me more, not I want to listen
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 5: to you more, right? It actually is like a very
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 5: countercultural thing to demonstrate authentic, open curiosity. And so I
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 5: think how countercultural that feels in a moment of real
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 5: social isolation, real sense that the problems before us are
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 5: so overwhelming and so challenging that nobody can fix them, right?
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 5: And the system is totally broken, which I want to
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 5: talk more to you about, but that's the top issue
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 5: that we're hearing on the doors from folks far and
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 5: above affordability. When all those things combine and someone comes
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 5: to your door who is not running for office, they're
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 5: not running for office, they don't come with a fancy
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 5: glossy paper to drop, and they really are open to
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 5: hearing your perspectives. And they are promising, not that they
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 5: can solve them, right? These are volunteers, they're not magicians,
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 5: but that they are going to communicate them back because
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 5: they want to make sure that the party is shaped
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 5: by that voter. That's something that it just feels very
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 5: different from what people have imagined, what they expect. That's
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 5: certainly what the voter that I talked to the longest
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 5: this past weekend, I was out in Pennsylvania's eighth congressional district,
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 5: one of the most competitive in the country. And one
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 5: guy literally was running away from me. He went, he
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 5: had a wraparound porch and he was running to the
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 5: other side. And I just went, you know, and I
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 5: gave my little pitch and he was hysterical. He said, Democrats,
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 5: you're here to help Democrats do a better job of listening.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 5: Have you heard the story of Sisyphus? And I cracked
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 5: up and it was just like the whole thing was,
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 5: nothing was computing with what he expected I was there
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 5: to do. We ended up talking for 20 minutes and
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 5: having a really meaningful, substantive, and quite personal conversation.
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 4: That's great.
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 8: I mean, it's funny, what you're describing just so perfectly
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 8: jives with sort of my personal experience canvassing. Like when
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 8: I was in Iowa, I've told this story on the
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 8: pod before, but Um, my boss used to like to
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 8: haze us a bit. Um, and so one day, you know,
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 8: Saturday morning, we all have a meeting. He tells all
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 8: the senior staff, I was like a press guy, like, okay,
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 8: you're all canvassing this weekend. I put a bunch of
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 8: names of counties in a hat, reach your hand in
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 8: and pull one out. And slowly we realized that he'd
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 8: only done like the border counties. So I got worth County.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 8: I basically drove two hours in Minnesota. Uh, I knocked
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 8: on doors in this town. Literally no one was home.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 8: I swear to God, not a single person answered the door.
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 8: And then finally there's like, I see a lady on.
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 4: A ride on more like motor lawn. And I was like,
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 4: you know what?
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 8: I'm just going to talk to her. Cause like, who cares?
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 8: Maybe I'll talk to one human being today. And she's
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 8: turned the thing off. We talked for 10, 15 minutes.
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 8: By the end of it, she signed a supporter car,
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 8: which means like she was a one said she caucus
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 8: for Obama was never on anyone's lists was not on
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 8: my knock list.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 4: It was just sort of a new name.
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 8: We had started into the system, but it was like
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 8: one of the more meaningful experiences I had doing field work.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 8: And it was because I just, in that moment, talked
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 8: to everyone and didn't get stuck on this stupid list.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 8: So what you're describing, like the reason campaigns usually don't
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 8: do that is because, as you said, you have limited time,
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 8: you have limited volunteers. If everyone's talking for 20 minutes,
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 8: you're just going to hit, in.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 4: Aggregate, fewer houses.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 8: But there's a real quality over quantity thing that I
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 8: think you're getting at that will resonate with most people
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 8: that have done field work.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 5: That's exactly right. And you know, something that Jon Tester
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 5: has talked about is in his very first run for,
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 5: I forget if he ran for the state house or
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 5: Senate in Montana, but a state seat. And he was
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 5: handed an analysis of the voters that he ought to
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 5: talk to. And he was just like, I'm going to
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 5: throw this out. I don't think this targeting understands my people.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 5: And he went, he knocked every door. And he attributes
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 5: that of trusting his intuition about his district. And sometimes
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 5: candidates shouldn't trust their intuition. Sometimes there is really good research.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 5: So we've got to back everything up, right? But I
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 5: think we have sort of, we're overthinking some things that
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 5: we have to do when, as you said, we have
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 5: limited time. If we don't have the money for field
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 5: staff until two months before the election, then you better
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 5: be targeting and you better be using pretty smart and
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 5: very limited lists. But I think going back to the
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 5: gravity of this moment, something that we hear a lot
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 5: from volunteers is they feel like they're in a moment
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 5: of whether our country is going to be able to
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 5: get back on track is up to what happens in
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 5: the next couple of years, not in the next decade.
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 5: It's really like we're in an urgent moment that is
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 5: going to take us on some very different paths. And
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 5: they keep reflecting. All they're being asked to do is
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 5: to donate $ 5 by midnight by a whole host of organizations.
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 5: sign this petition, maybe come join a protest. And then
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 5: they're looking around and they're like, okay, but what's next? Like,
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 5: what's the strategy? What do I do? And so a
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 5: part of this is also inviting people in. Our volunteers
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 5: are intelligent adults. Folks who listen to this podcast are
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 5: following the news, care a lot. They're not listening to
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 5: podcasts like this because they don't care about our country.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 5: On the contrary, it's because they deeply care. Let's invite
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 5: them to be not just sort of people that we say,
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 5: go do this, click here, click that, but come be
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 5: a part of reimagining something together and learning together. And
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 5: every week in our pilot, our volunteers have given us
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 5: feedback on the tech, on the scripts, et cetera, to
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 5: help make it better and better every week. And that
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 5: iteration is only possible in an all hands on deck moment.
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 8: Yeah, our voter contact can't just be like an increasingly
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 8: hysterical series of text messages.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 4: We got to get past this stuff.
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 8: So Vote Forward, which is an organization that's affiliated with
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 8: Swing Left, did another really interesting experiment where you guys
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 8: were sending letters to voters in key states. You did
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 8: this over the course of several years, and then you
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 8: rolled out some of the findings. I think it was
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 8: in the Atlantic a couple months back. So we're talking
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 8: old school snail mail, none of this fancy AI crap
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 8: you got in this new program. Can you tell us
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 8: about the Big Send program, how it evolved over time,
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 8: and what that program taught you about voter contact generally?
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 5: So Vote Forward, as you said, Swing Left's nonpartisan affiliate
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 5: started as a randomized control trial, which as you know
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 5: is the sort of gold standard in really researching whether
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 5: an intervention, in this case a letter written by a
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 5: volunteer to a voter, does it actually move the needle
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 5: or does it just feel good to write? And the
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 5: very first letters that were written were for the Alabama
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 5: special election way back in the before times. And the
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 5: effect of those letters in turning out voters Voters who,
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 5: based off of how frequently or infrequently they vote, their demographics,
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 5: their age, and so on, are likely to be Democrats,
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 5: but may not know that an election is happening in
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 5: a special, etc., We had a very significant measurable effect
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 5: in the multiple percentage points, which in nerd speak is
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 5: sort of like mind blowing.
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 4: It's a massive, massive moving of the needle.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 5: Like unheard of. Our founder, Scott Foreman, called the folks
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 5: at the Analyst Institute that runs a lot of these
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 5: experiments around voter contact and was like, can you double
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 5: check my work? It was just really amazing. And so
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 5: Swing Left and Vote Forward ended up moving under one
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 5: umbrella in 2019. And in the 2020 cycle- Going back
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 5: to a time where we couldn't really knock on doors
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 5: in many parts of the country, we wrote about 10
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 5: million letters to voters to, again, turn them out across
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 5: the country. And again, we had an incredible effect size.
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 5: We turned people out. We could measure it. It wasn't
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 5: a feeling. It was real science. And so we've kept
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 5: on doing it, right? It's something that works. People love
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 5: writing letters. You can do it from anywhere. And every year,
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 5: every election cycle, our impact has just been getting a
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 5: little smaller. So we've tried different ways. Okay, well, what
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 5: happens if you put a post-it in the letter? The
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 5: effect size is bigger than if you didn't. All these
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 5: kinds of ways of let's not just trust what's worked before,
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 5: let's keep tweaking it. Fast forward to 2024, all these
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 5: letter writers came in, wrote, we hit all our goals
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 5: for millions of letters all across the country. We felt
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 5: great about it. We go back, we run the randomized
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 5: control trial. There's some impact, but it's within the margin
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 5: of error. It's not something that we should brag about.
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 5: We could package it up and brag about it just
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 5: to look good on the internet. But the truth is
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 5: the efficacy of this tactic that for years and years
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 5: has been incredibly effective in the same ways that we've
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 5: been doing it is not working as well as it
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 5: used to. Same thing happened with text messages. I remember
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 5: in 2018, I thought text messages, it was the most
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 5: amazing thing in the world. They were moving voters. We
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 5: could measure it. Now I don't read a single text
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 5: message on my phone if it's not from a number
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 5: that I don't know, right? And so what we did
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 5: that you referred to is rather than just share with
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 5: our hardcore volunteers, hey, this is what we learn. We're
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 5: going to sugarcoat it a little bit. We'll do things differently.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 5: Trust us. We said, let's be brutally honest about what
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 5: we saw, which is that this thing that we invested
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 5: tons of money in, tons of not just our staff time,
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 5: but volunteers all across the country who painstakingly every night,
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 5: and we would hear from people who would say, every
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 5: night when I put my kids down, I'd make sure
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 5: I wrote at least one letter. This is really like
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 5: meaningful stuff for them. We shared the results that we
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 5: knew would break some hearts to say, we can't measure
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 5: that we had any impact with those millions of letters.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 5: And the reason that we did that is because Not
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 5: only do we think that's the right thing to do,
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 5: but if we are serious that we are in a
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 5: moment of tremendous, again, tremendous gravity, and we just pretend
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 5: like everything's fine and that the things that we did
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 5: were effective, which is unfortunately what a lot of the
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 5: ecosystem is doing, then we either are lying that we
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 5: think this moment is really serious or we are going
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 5: to keep losing, right? And so rather than just put
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 5: a sort of buried page on our website, we pitched
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 5: to The Atlantic, can you cover... a thing that didn't
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 5: go well for us. And the feedback that we got
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 5: from folks who, honestly, the advice we got is don't
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 5: do this. You're never going to raise any money. People
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 5: are never going to volunteer for you again. The feedback
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 5: that we got was, thank you for your honesty. It
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 5: is so refreshing and count me in for whatever's next.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 5: And so I think that To us, that is not
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 5: just a fuf moment. It is a confirmation of what
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 5: we know, which is that volunteers and donors are adults
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 5: who really, really give a shit about this country. And
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 5: if we infantilize them by not being honest with them
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 5: about what works and what doesn't, by just asking them,
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 5: click $ 5 by midnight, then again, we're either not serious
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 5: about the gravity of this moment, or we don't think
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 5: that they're serious people. And I think either of those
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 5: is a total misunderstanding of the all hands on deck moment.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 6: That we're in.
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 4: Totally agree. And this is honestly why I love your approach.
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 8: And like, just for listeners, like this is actually the
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 8: second time I've interviewed you on Mike. The first time
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 8: I was trying to put together an entire Sunday episode
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 8: about like learnings like this and experimentation that's happening. And like,
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 8: you were one of only two people that was willing
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 8: to talk to me. Everyone, everyone else says like, Oh no,
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 8: we can't, we can't disclose our research because we don't
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 8: want to give that secret sauce to the Republicans. But,
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 8: And I guess, look, I mean, I take them like
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 8: these are good people doing hard work. I'm not trying
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 8: to minimize it. But why isn't that a concern for
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 8: you that you're somehow giving up the code for winning
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 8: elections or the formula for winning elections to Republicans?
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think our customer at Swing Left is
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 5: the volunteer and the donor. And so they are who
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 5: we care about, who we wake up every day thinking about.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 5: Everybody who is listening to shows like this, who's reading
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 5: the news, who, you know, cares a lot and isn't
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 5: sure what they can do to help. If we take
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 5: seriously that our job is to help bring them on
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 5: the journey of using their time and dollars in an
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 5: effective way, we cannot lie to them. And we also
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 5: can't steer them towards ineffective tactics or ineffective programs. And so, again,
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 5: going back to not just on the vote forward side
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 5: with our sort of honesty about what didn't work, but
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 5: with ground truth, we were like, okay, we could just
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 5: keep having people canvas the same ways we've always been doing,
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 5: even though we know it doesn't work, but that's lying
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 5: to them when we say we're directing you to the
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 5: highest impact actions. So again, I think this stuff is,
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 5: it is actually quite intuitive. It feels counter-cultural because the
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 5: incentives of our world are the way that they are.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 5: It's not bad people, it's bad incentives. And not to
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 5: sort of leap back to the voter side, but I
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 5: do think there's some important connective tissue, which is, you know,
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 5: as I mentioned to you a little bit earlier, the
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 5: top issue that we heard in our ground truth pilot canvases,
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 5: which was in 25, it was 25 canvases in congressional
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 5: districts across the country. I expected the top issue would
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 5: be affordability. It was not the top issue. The top
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 5: issue with Republicans, with independents, with Democrats, every district that
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 5: we were in was a feeling that the system is broken.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 5: that both parties suck, and that nobody actually gives a
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 5: damn about that person, that community, their district, their town,
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 5: whatever the case may be. And that is not a
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 5: reaction to a specific news story. It's not a reaction
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 5: to a specific moment. But people do read the news.
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 5: Swing voters may be a little less than your listeners.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 5: But when they see story after story, like I was just,
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 5: as I mentioned, in Pennsylvania, eighth congressional district, the Republican
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 5: representing that district, Rob Bresnahan, he's someone who ran his
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 5: campaign last cycle on an end corruption. You know, members
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 5: of Congress shouldn't do stock trading platform, which resonated with
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 5: people who were upset about the system. Turns out he
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 5: is one of the top stock traders in Congress. Turns
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 5: out he used his winnings to buy a helicopter in
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 5: a district where people can't afford grocery prices.
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 2: So crazy to buy a helicopter.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 5: It is bananas. It's also like, are you not aware
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 5: that people are looking at you and can see what
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 5: you're doing? But whatever, don't get me started. The Republicans
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 5: are not really caring about the hypocrisy that they embody.
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 5: So of course, we need to talk about that. And
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 5: of course, we will attack that. But we also need
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 5: to have a mirror to ourselves too, which is it's
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 5: not like Democrats have perfectly clean hands either, right? It's
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 5: not like there's not, I can't think of a Democrat
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 5: who has bought a helicopter with insider stock trading. But
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 5: you know, I mean, just this week, a story that's
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 5: been looming large in my imagination is this Chuy Garcia
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 5: story of, you know, Chuy Garcia is someone who For
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 5: Swing Left members, he's a champion on the issues that
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 5: they care about. He is centering working people. He's done
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 5: incredible work in Congress. And for listeners who are not
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 5: dorks like you and me, who've followed this story very closely,
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 5: you know, he, on the very last day of the
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 5: filing deadline for his district, years and years representing this district,
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 5: he suddenly bows out and turns out only his chief
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 5: of staff had filed. And the kicker was, as you
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 5: all know, Tommy, She had filed days earlier with a
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 5: document showing that Chuy Garcia had been the first person
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 5: to sign her nominating petition. So I say that because,
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 5: you know, it is, I think, the contrast of buying
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 5: a helicopter and doing some sort of funny business of,
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 5: maybe it's not insider trading, but it's like some kind
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 5: of inside maneuvering. There's some contrast there, but When voters
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 5: say the system is broken, both parties suck, and what
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 5: we hear over and over again is voters, even Dems,
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 5: really strong Dems will say, I'm sorry, what do Democrats
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 5: stand for besides being anti-Trump? We've got to do a
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 5: much better job of re-anchoring candidates on those feelings because
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 5: even if they talk about grocery prices all day and night,
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 5: if they don't get, first of all, that voters feel
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 5: like the system is broken, And second of all, that
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 5: even strong Dems do not feel like the Democratic Party
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 5: has clean hands, then they are not going to be
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 5: able to be effective at making the case for winning.
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 5: And by the way, I don't think that we're going
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 5: to have the most amazing, talented, magical communicators in every
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 5: single frontline and red to blue district in the country.
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 5: And I think that's okay. With a program like Ground Truth,
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 5: what volunteers can do is make sure that even a
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 5: candidate who is not the best messenger, who is not
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 5: amazing on TikTok is able to be anchored in what
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 5: people actually care about and just why they care about it.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 5: And I think that, again, feels really intuitive, but is
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 5: a pretty dramatic culture shift and is pretty countercultural in
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 5: a party that is increasingly, not just in a party,
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 5: in a politic across party lines that is more and
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 5: more removed from the ground.
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 4: Agreed. Final question.
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 8: If people want to be a part of this, how
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 8: can they get involved in Ground Truth or Swing Left generally?
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 4: What can they do?
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 5: Yes. Well, we would love for them to go to swingleft.org
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 5: slash groundtruth. They can get involved. Most folks listening who
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 5: don't live in a competitive congressional district might think, this
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 5: is not a program for me. I live in LA
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 5: or in DC like me and Tommy. Almost every American
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 5: lives within 90 minutes of a competitive congressional district. So
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 5: starting in January, you will be able to join us
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 5: in the closest district to you. So again, swingleft.org slash groundtruth.
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 5: And then coming up on December 9th, we are having
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 5: a call for anybody, whether they are new to Swing Left,
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 5: whether they are longtime volunteers, first-time canvassers, never canvassers, whatever,
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 5: or people who've been knocking doors forever and ever. They
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 5: can come learn more about the program and also about
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 5: our strategy and why we're prioritizing the districts that we are.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 5: And the last thing that I'll just say, that's on
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 5: the kind of brass tacks, but I do want to
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 5: kind of just like not to be overly pessimistic, but
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 5: to be sobering. I think a lot of the mood
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 5: and seeing you at Crooked Con, I saw this a
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 5: lot among the attendees there is like we won in 2025.
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 5: We won back all the voters. Everything's good. Like we've
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 5: got everything on lock. And so the blue wave.
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 4: Work ain't done, people.
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 5: And I think, you know, as someone who is very daily,
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 5: anxious daily about the stakes of this moment and are
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 5: we doing everything that we can, we just have to
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 5: remember what we remembered back in 2018 and subsequent elections,
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 5: which is blue waves do not happen on their own.
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 5: And so if folks come and join us with Ground
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 5: Truth and come and knock on doors with us, we
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 5: think that that is a way to not just do
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 5: a one click, but really sink their teeth into the
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 5: project of reshaping our party, reshaping our politics. And whatever
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 5: folks do, it's important that all of us do something
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 5: and not wait too long because the clock is ticking
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 5: and we live in very unpredictable times. So we've got
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 5: to control what we can control.
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 8: No time like the present to get involved. Yasmin, thanks
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 8: for the great work you're doing. Thanks for the great
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 8: work Swing Left is doing and for talking to me today.
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 4: Appreciate it.
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Tommy.
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 3: That's our show for today. Thanks to Yasmeen Raji for
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 3: coming on. On Sunday, you'll get Alex's great CrookedCon panel
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 3: with Ruben Gallego, Brian Schatz, and Pramila Jayapal about what
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 3: a Democratic Congress would deliver, and Tommy's conversation with former
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 3: FTC chair and current Mamdani transition advisor, Lina Khan. Talk
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 3: to everybody then.
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
• 1:44:10
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• 1:44:12
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• 1:44:15
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• 1:44:19
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• 1:44:22
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• 1:44:28
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• 1:44:35
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