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Relational Healing of Trauma with Kerry J. Heckman, LICSW · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Today we even another episode from the archives with one
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Speaker 1: of my incredible guests. Enjoy. Welcome to the Trauma Divers podcast,
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Speaker 1: a show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those
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Speaker 1: who experienced trauma. My name is Got macpherson and my
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Speaker 1: mission is to raise the awareness of trauma and to
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Speaker 1: inspire each of us to help those around us, our folks.
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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Trauma Nevers podcast. I am very
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Speaker 1: excited to have as my guest today Carrie Heckman. Carrie, welcome, Thank.
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Speaker 2: You so much, great to be here.
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Speaker 1: All right. So, Carrie is freelance writer and clinical social
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Speaker 1: worker in private practice in Seattle. After ten years as
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Speaker 1: a high school social worker in the Chicago area, she
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Speaker 1: followed her intuition to the Pacific Northwest in twenty eighteen.
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Speaker 1: There she was introduced to a therapeutic modality called somatic
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Speaker 1: transformation created by doctor Sharon Stanley, one of my favorites.
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Speaker 1: She's been on the podcast. This life chain lens through
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Speaker 1: which to understand trauma and the nervous system, taught her
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Speaker 1: how to manage your own complex health issues as well
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Speaker 1: as help clients who've experienced trauma. Carrie is now inspired
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Speaker 1: to bring this information to as many people as possible
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Speaker 1: to work towards a more embodied world. All right, awesome,
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Speaker 1: welcome once again. So before we coet go in here, Carrie,
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Speaker 1: So you're give our listeners a little background. So you're
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Speaker 1: in Seattle. Now you're in Chicago. Where were you? Where
1:24
Speaker 1: were you born? Where are you from?
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Speaker 2: Originally I was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Okay, lived there
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Speaker 2: until I was eighteen when I moved to Illinois for college,
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Speaker 2: actually went to study musical theater, and then in a
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Speaker 2: twist of events, changed my major to human services, which
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Speaker 2: is kind of the precursor for going to grad school
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Speaker 2: for social work.
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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, you might know that I'm currently in band.
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Speaker 1: We just moved to band to Oregon like four months ago.
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Speaker 2: We're close.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well all right, let's dive in here. So
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Speaker 1: how did things unfold for you such that you got
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Speaker 1: into this field?
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Speaker 2: Right? So, I think the the initial inciting incident, well,
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Speaker 2: I mean, if I can rewind all the way back
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Speaker 2: to how I got into the field of social work.
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Speaker 2: You know, when I decided to change my major away
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Speaker 2: from theater and move into social work, I really, I
2:32
Speaker 2: really didn't know what I wanted to do. You know,
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Speaker 2: it was kind of that moment where I was a
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Speaker 2: little lost and needed some guidance and ended up having
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Speaker 2: this synchronistic conversation with somebody going into counseling and then
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Speaker 2: realizing that I had, you know, really my entire young
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Speaker 2: life been so fascinated by people and kind of what
2:55
Speaker 2: makes them who they are, and so it was it
2:59
Speaker 2: was seemed like a good fit. And then I started
3:03
Speaker 2: studying and really found that it was exactly the right fit,
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Speaker 2: that everything I was learning was resonating, and I you know,
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Speaker 2: kind of couldn't wait to learn more. And so eventually,
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Speaker 2: you know, went to graduate from school for social work,
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Speaker 2: and education is really important in my family, so my
3:22
Speaker 2: mom's a my mom was an elementary school teacher. So
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Speaker 2: I thought maybe school social work would be the right
3:29
Speaker 2: fit for me, and it was, you know, it was
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Speaker 2: for a long time until it started to get really intense,
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Speaker 2: and kind of coincidingly, I started to get sick, and so,
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Speaker 2: you know, I eventually decided that I just wasn't able
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Speaker 2: to maintain that level of intensity at work with my illness,
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Speaker 2: which at that point was still mostly and iagnosed. Eventually
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Speaker 2: came to be diagnosed with chronic clime disease and left
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Speaker 2: that job and worked part time at a university and
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Speaker 2: really kind of thought, Okay, what's the next step. What
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Speaker 2: can I do that I can also work and maintain
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Speaker 2: my health. And that summer, my husband and I went
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Speaker 2: to went on a cruise to Alaska, and I had
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Speaker 2: never felt better in my life, you know, the fresh
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Speaker 2: air and the evergreen trees and the mountains, and it
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Speaker 2: was then I was like, Okay, I need to we
4:40
Speaker 2: need to be in this, and Alaska wasn't quite realistic,
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Speaker 2: so Seattle felt like a better fit. And when I
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Speaker 2: came here, decided that it was time to start my
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Speaker 2: private practice. But I really, you know, I was very
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Speaker 2: much new and needed some guide and so wanted to
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Speaker 2: join a group practice. And one of the group practices
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Speaker 2: I was looking into requested a somatic therapist, and I
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Speaker 2: had never heard of this. I didn't know what this was,
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Speaker 2: and started researching and just everything that I was learning
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Speaker 2: made complete sense for my life experience, as well as
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Speaker 2: what I was noticing in people that I'd worked with,
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Speaker 2: and just by chance, decided to go to a retreat
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Speaker 2: put on by doctor Sharon Stanley, and yeah, everything has
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Speaker 2: been sematic therapy since that.
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Speaker 1: Wow. So again for those of you who aren't familiar
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Speaker 1: with doctor Sharon Stanley, she is a somatic therapist really
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Speaker 1: specializing in trauma. But mean, you've got to go back
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Speaker 1: and listen to the interviews I've done with her. I've
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Speaker 1: had her on as a guest trauma therapist two point
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Speaker 1: on my membership of community. And really, Carrie, when I
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Speaker 1: you know, when we were kind of emailing back and
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Speaker 1: forth and you mentioned her, I was like, all right,
6:05
Speaker 1: she's got to come on the podcast. I mean, I
6:08
Speaker 1: can't say enough about her. But first of all, you know,
6:14
Speaker 1: you said that position was getting kind of intense, and
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Speaker 1: coincidentally or not, you were getting sick. Talk a little
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Speaker 1: bit more about that with that intensity, what was that intensity?
6:26
Speaker 1: I guess right, I think.
6:30
Speaker 2: And in the Pacific Northwest it's not as common to
6:34
Speaker 2: have high school social or social workers working within the schools,
6:39
Speaker 2: but in other parts of the country, schools will have
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Speaker 2: a social worker on staff, and usually it's you know,
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Speaker 2: the ratio between the number of students and the number
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Speaker 2: of social workers is you know, very unrealistic and not recommended.
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Speaker 2: And so I was the one person in a school
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Speaker 2: of nine hundred, right, yeah, kind of being the the
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Speaker 2: main person people go to when things are hard, or
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Speaker 2: there's a child who needs someone to to hold space
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Speaker 2: for them and and and help them through difficulties. So yeah,
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Speaker 2: it was it was a little overwhelming to have that
7:25
Speaker 2: number of kind of people in my care.
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Speaker 1: Right. So, you know you talked about, uh, finding these this,
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Speaker 1: these workshop or events and things just clicked for you.
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Speaker 1: Now there's a couple of things that I think that
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Speaker 1: are really important in that that I kind of want
7:43
Speaker 1: to unpack if we could want is the fact that
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Speaker 1: you said things clicked for you, and when there's you know,
7:50
Speaker 1: people and the listeners know, there's so many modalities out there,
7:53
Speaker 1: What do I work on, what do I choose, what
7:55
Speaker 1: should I pursue? Talk a little bit about how and
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Speaker 1: why that that click for you?
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Speaker 2: Right, So this I had been learning about the chronic
8:07
Speaker 2: stress response and how that works for people who have
8:14
Speaker 2: illness because you know, lime disease often people it triggers
8:19
Speaker 2: autoimmune disease. So often people with lime disease have many
8:22
Speaker 2: different autoimmune diseases. And that's basically a twenty four to
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Speaker 2: seven chronic stress response in the body. So I knew
8:33
Speaker 2: about that, but I didn't know how that related to
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Speaker 2: trauma and how you know, similar to illness, trauma can
8:42
Speaker 2: disregulate the nervous system and cause people to be in
8:46
Speaker 2: a chronic stress response. And everything made sense from there
8:53
Speaker 2: on out. And somatic transformation specifically, which is what she
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Speaker 2: and created, is this relational approach to that. So it's
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Speaker 2: really about the relationship between the therapist and the client
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Speaker 2: and how healing that is. And that had been my
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Speaker 2: you know, modality or therapeutic lean ever since I started
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Speaker 2: working in social work, was that it was about the
9:25
Speaker 2: relationship and so that really made so much sense to me.
9:30
Speaker 2: And then this idea of coregulation, right like we regulate
9:33
Speaker 2: with another before we can regulate on our own, and
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Speaker 2: it's just all of those things together really clicked, like
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Speaker 2: I said, and started to feel like, Okay, this is
9:49
Speaker 2: what I need to be doing. And I guess the
9:52
Speaker 2: body element of it as well, in the body based therapy,
9:56
Speaker 2: because it's you know, when you're a young therapist, idea
10:00
Speaker 2: of re traumatization is so scary. You don't want to
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Speaker 2: do anything that will harm somebody that you care about
10:07
Speaker 2: and you want to help, and so the idea that
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Speaker 2: you can work with the body and not have to
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Speaker 2: retell a story that is traumatic and would bring up
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Speaker 2: a traumatic stress response was comforting for me as the therapist,
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Speaker 2: but also knowing that that can be effective, that it's
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Speaker 2: it's not you're not avoiding anything. You're leaning into the
10:34
Speaker 2: nervous system's ability to process and heal through the body.
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Speaker 1: You mentioned early on you kind of understood the importance
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Speaker 1: of the relationship. I didn't. I mean, I kind of
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Speaker 1: knew that was there, and I knew it was a thing,
10:52
Speaker 1: but I didn't really get it quite honestly, until you know,
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Speaker 1: I started doing this podcast and I learned more. Talk
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Speaker 1: about that for you, like, how did you get because
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Speaker 1: a lot of people don't mean a lot of I
11:10
Speaker 1: think a lot of people do understand it, but they
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Speaker 1: don't get how vital it is, if not the most
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Speaker 1: important thing we talk about that from from your perspective
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Speaker 1: in your world? How did that make sense to you?
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Speaker 2: You know, the reason it makes sense to me is
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Speaker 2: that trauma happens in relationship, and so if we are
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Speaker 2: hoping to heal, that also needs to happen in relationship,
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Speaker 2: and a person needs to know that someone cares and
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Speaker 2: someone sees them, and that that in itself is the
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Speaker 2: most healing element. Is that we are relational. Everything we
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Speaker 2: do is relationship, and if all you have is traumatic
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Speaker 2: memories of relationships, you need to know that relationships can
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Speaker 2: be good and connected and real and authentic. And and
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Speaker 2: I think that as long as you genuinely care about
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Speaker 2: the person that you're working with, that they will feel
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Speaker 2: that sematically. Whether or not they cognitively even realize it,
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Speaker 2: they will feel it sematically. And that is where that
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Speaker 2: starts to people start to lay down some of those defenses.
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Speaker 1: How did this whole the trauma element come in for you?
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Speaker 1: Talk about that?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think as at least kind of in
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Speaker 2: my life experience. And I don't know why that was
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Speaker 2: the reason, but the idea of trauma was always you know, war,
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Speaker 2: car accidents, things that we all fear and dread, and
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Speaker 2: if one of those things wasn't present, that that trauma
13:07
Speaker 2: wasn't present. And then when I decided to go into
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Speaker 2: private practice, I thought, Okay, you know, as much trauma
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Speaker 2: as I worked with, this is.
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Speaker 1: A gap for me.
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Speaker 2: I need some strategies to work with people who have trauma.
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Speaker 2: And that's why I signed up to go see shareon
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Speaker 2: and learn about it, and then it was, oh, everyone
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Speaker 2: has trauma. We all have trauma that lives in our body.
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Speaker 2: And then you know, it was like okay. And the
13:43
Speaker 2: other thing that really clicked for me was this, you know,
13:48
Speaker 2: this concept of people who have a lot of self
13:51
Speaker 2: hatred or a lot of self loathing and they work
13:55
Speaker 2: to get help and it really it's kind of that
13:58
Speaker 2: feeling that just doesn't go away. And when I learned
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Speaker 2: that that feeling was connected to trauma, it was like, Okay,
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Speaker 2: that's that's my work, Like, that is where I want
14:12
Speaker 2: to be because of how difficult that feeling is, of
14:17
Speaker 2: this kind of being an outsider, not belonging, not being
14:20
Speaker 2: good enough, not having worth, and how that there is
14:25
Speaker 2: a part of that in all of us too, but
14:28
Speaker 2: for the people where that's a really big part, that's
14:32
Speaker 2: who I wanted to work with. And when I learned
14:34
Speaker 2: about how that was connected to trauma, it was just Okay,
14:39
Speaker 2: here's where I need to be. This is the work
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Speaker 2: that I need.
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Speaker 1: To be doing, all right. I don't know if you
14:46
Speaker 1: follow me on Instagram or not, but when I do interviews,
14:50
Speaker 1: I usually do two interviews a week I conduct two
14:53
Speaker 1: interviews a week, and usually I get so excited. I
14:59
Speaker 1: get so pumped up after these interviews because I get
15:02
Speaker 1: to talk to incredible people. And what I usually do
15:06
Speaker 1: is they go on Instagram and I talk about it.
15:09
Speaker 1: I want to share that excitement. Usually there's about a
15:13
Speaker 1: two month turnaround on my podcast, which means that they
15:20
Speaker 1: don't go live for a couple of months, and I
15:23
Speaker 1: have a problem with that because I want to share it.
15:29
Speaker 1: I get so excited about these things. So what I've
15:32
Speaker 1: done is I've created a membership called Trauma Therapist Plus
15:38
Speaker 1: and allows people for five dollars a month to access
15:43
Speaker 1: these episodes about two months before they get published to
15:47
Speaker 1: the public, and you can also listen ad free, which
15:51
Speaker 1: is really cool. So if you're interested in that, if
15:53
Speaker 1: you're interested in listening to episodes before they get released
15:57
Speaker 1: to the general public and also listening ad free, check
16:00
Speaker 1: it out being access it by going to Apple Podcasts
16:05
Speaker 1: and just clicking on any of the episodes that has
16:08
Speaker 1: a plus p l us before it. It's exciting. I'm
16:12
Speaker 1: excited about it, and you'll also help support the podcast.
16:16
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being a listener. I really
16:18
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Take care. Well, I mean to hear you
16:22
Speaker 1: say that, it is exciting to me because I think
16:24
Speaker 1: when whenever we find are able and fortunate enough to
16:29
Speaker 1: have that feeling and that sensation, I think it's I
16:31
Speaker 1: think it's an awesome feeling because like it lights us up.
16:35
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, that that makes sense to me. So
16:38
Speaker 1: what does that look like to you? In session? And
16:43
Speaker 1: I realized this is a crazy question and it's different
16:45
Speaker 1: for everybody, but but can you break it down? What
16:48
Speaker 1: does that? What does that mean like when you're when
16:51
Speaker 1: you're in relationship with someone and trying to create that environment,
16:57
Speaker 1: what does it look like?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I kind of have these these sign posts
17:03
Speaker 2: that I that I hold in my mind and they
17:07
Speaker 2: kind of guide me to remember that really this is
17:13
Speaker 2: about helping someone feel seen and but seen in on
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Speaker 2: the body, the level of the body and the level
17:22
Speaker 2: of the trauma that is sometimes not even understood. So
17:28
Speaker 2: there's the sign post right of curiosity, like this person
17:32
Speaker 2: is their own expert on themselves, and so I really
17:36
Speaker 2: try to turn off that analytical academic side and really
17:44
Speaker 2: work on the curiosity of Okay, if this person is
17:47
Speaker 2: the expert and who they are, and I really want
17:50
Speaker 2: to know them. Then I need to maintain my curiosity
17:56
Speaker 2: throughout this session. And you know our life, our left
18:01
Speaker 2: brain really good at pulling us into that analytical academic place.
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Speaker 2: So just constantly reminding myself to be curious about the
18:10
Speaker 2: person and that I really do want to know what
18:14
Speaker 2: that feeling is like for them and what their life
18:17
Speaker 2: experience has been like for them. And then so that
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Speaker 2: you know, there's the curiosity and then there's there there
18:26
Speaker 2: really is that genuine authentic attunement, you know, which is
18:34
Speaker 2: a word share and uses a lot, is we are
18:38
Speaker 2: really attuning to the person. So what are those little
18:41
Speaker 2: clues that I'm receiving that maybe this person doesn't feel seen? Right?
18:46
Speaker 2: Are they you know, did something shift in their body
18:51
Speaker 2: where they you know, dropped down or is uh did
18:59
Speaker 2: did they sell?
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Speaker 1: Or you know?
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Speaker 2: What? Are they are the clues that that I can
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Speaker 2: get that this person isn't feeling seen in that moment,
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Speaker 2: And how can I do better to resonate and attuned
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Speaker 2: to how this person is feeling? How can I ask
19:14
Speaker 2: the right questions about their experience to elicit that understanding
19:21
Speaker 2: so that they can feel that.
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Speaker 1: I mean, it's so listening to you talk first of all,
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Speaker 1: this is this is amazing, this is what I love doing,
19:28
Speaker 1: why I love doing this podcast. It sounds it sounds challenging,
19:35
Speaker 1: it sounds really I mean you talked about not, you know,
19:39
Speaker 1: kind of letting the academic go. Of course, that doesn't
19:41
Speaker 1: mean letting everything you know go where the knowledge go.
19:45
Speaker 1: But to get to that space that you're talking about
19:48
Speaker 1: where you're able to have that awareness about what's going
19:53
Speaker 1: on with the person in front of you and your
19:54
Speaker 1: own self. Was that process of getting there? Was that
20:01
Speaker 1: a challenge for you? Talk about a little bit about
20:04
Speaker 1: how you got to that space where you able to
20:06
Speaker 1: do that, right.
20:11
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it is having your own
20:17
Speaker 2: somatic therapist. That's a huge part of it, because I
20:21
Speaker 2: needed to coregulate with another person to learn the resources
20:25
Speaker 2: of my body in order to maintain grounding and maintaining embodiment.
20:34
Speaker 2: Because so much is intuition, right, It's so much about
20:38
Speaker 2: what is just coming up? What is just that image
20:41
Speaker 2: that flashes into my mind, what is that word that's
20:44
Speaker 2: coming up, what is that question that's coming up? And
20:47
Speaker 2: in order to do that, we need to be embodied.
20:49
Speaker 2: So we need to go through the process of unpacking
20:54
Speaker 2: our life experiences, which you know, I can tell you
20:58
Speaker 2: I have money that I need, that I needed and
21:01
Speaker 2: need to continue to work through in that way, and
21:09
Speaker 2: and and so it's it's not a perfect zenlike embodiment, right,
21:14
Speaker 2: it's this constant checking in and you know, am I
21:18
Speaker 2: am I starting to get away from from myself? Okay,
21:21
Speaker 2: I need to come come back into the body. And
21:24
Speaker 2: I think it's the most challenging thing that anyone can
21:27
Speaker 2: do ever, And it's what we're calling on our clients
21:31
Speaker 2: to do. It's what we're calling on ourselves to do,
21:34
Speaker 2: and it is the most challenging thing we will ever do.
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Speaker 1: It sounds like there's you know, you one has to have.
21:43
Speaker 1: You know, you talked about intuition like self trust, trusting
21:48
Speaker 1: your own sensations and feelings and emotions and uh and
21:53
Speaker 1: at the same time being able to modulate what's coming
21:57
Speaker 1: out of your mouth in a sense. Yeah, it's it
22:03
Speaker 1: sounds very challenging. But so I mean I love hearing
22:07
Speaker 1: you talk about this process of really seeing someone on
22:11
Speaker 1: a somatic level too, and what that means.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you know the reason why and maybe this
22:22
Speaker 2: is something where I still have a lot of learning
22:24
Speaker 2: to do about how.
22:30
Speaker 1: What is that?
22:31
Speaker 2: What is happening when we are seeing someone on a
22:36
Speaker 2: somatic level that allows us to maybe release trauma or
22:41
Speaker 2: allows us to let down a defense that we've been
22:44
Speaker 2: holding onto for our entire lifetime sometimes and you know,
22:51
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly what that is, but it's you know,
22:57
Speaker 2: it's pretty magical and it's pretty amazing that we're able
23:01
Speaker 2: to do it.
23:03
Speaker 1: Let's talk about kind of an early clinical error. Your
23:09
Speaker 1: your one clinical.
23:10
Speaker 2: Error, Yeah, there was just one?
23:13
Speaker 1: And what what what you learned from that? What would
23:16
Speaker 1: you share?
23:18
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I did kind of try to mine the
23:22
Speaker 2: the the experiences I've had to come up with kind
23:26
Speaker 2: of that one thing. But if I could broaden it
23:32
Speaker 2: a little bit, I do think it falls into really
23:39
Speaker 2: I think every early clinician needs a therapist and needs
23:44
Speaker 2: a consult like a consulting therapist. And it's that's the
23:49
Speaker 2: self care that I wasn't giving myself that I need
23:54
Speaker 2: to give myself now. But I do think it's this
23:59
Speaker 2: idea that I think young clinicians really want to want
24:03
Speaker 2: to fix and want to solve unsolvable problems. And I
24:08
Speaker 2: was caught in that trap a lot, especially when I
24:11
Speaker 2: was working in the high school because these problems were
24:14
Speaker 2: not fixable, and really it was just about how can
24:18
Speaker 2: I be here and attuned to this person. And I
24:22
Speaker 2: think a lot of times, you know, when when you're
24:25
Speaker 2: working in a secondary setting and you have all these
24:28
Speaker 2: different stakeholders, I think that part got missed sometimes and
24:35
Speaker 2: so just really narrowing that focus to that is all
24:39
Speaker 2: it is. It's you and the other person, and can
24:42
Speaker 2: you see them on their terms?
24:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's huge, and it sounds it sounds
24:48
Speaker 1: very simple and simplistic in a sense. And when I
24:51
Speaker 1: got to graduate school, I, like I said, I didn't
24:56
Speaker 1: get it. I kind of knew that that was a
24:59
Speaker 1: component and important, but for me, I thought that I
25:03
Speaker 1: needed and what was most important was to get all
25:06
Speaker 1: this information in because that would enable me to fix things.
25:12
Speaker 1: And and and I realized how crazy it is it
25:15
Speaker 1: as as I'm you know, admitting this again for the
25:18
Speaker 1: umpteenth time, it was you know, I think a lot
25:24
Speaker 1: of people get into this field because they want to help,
25:26
Speaker 1: and and oftentimes that translates into fixing. Uh, but what
25:32
Speaker 1: you're talking about here really is profound, just that that
25:36
Speaker 1: that being this, you know, and being able to do
25:39
Speaker 1: that and to a to a tune to some that's
25:41
Speaker 1: that's incredible stuff.
25:44
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, if we can imagine what it's like
25:47
Speaker 2: when people are tuning to us. You know, I always
25:49
Speaker 2: think about like when somebody asks you about something you're
25:52
Speaker 2: really excited about and they genuinely want to hear about it.
25:56
Speaker 2: What's that? I mean, that's a great feeling.
25:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a crazy feeling. You're like, oh my god,
26:01
Speaker 1: someone's actually caring and listening to me. Yeah, it's it's
26:05
Speaker 1: so true. And you know, it also brings up the
26:09
Speaker 1: idea of authenticity and and with with both parties involved,
26:15
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's crazy. Well, let me just reintroduce
26:19
Speaker 1: you here. I'm speaking with Kerry Heckman, and let's talk
26:23
Speaker 1: about a go to book recommendation. What do you have?
26:28
Speaker 2: Right? So I did bring doctor Sharon Stanley talk with
26:32
Speaker 2: me today to talk about it's called Relational and Body
26:37
Speaker 2: Centered Practices for Healing Trauma, Lifting the Burdens of the Past.
26:43
Speaker 2: And you know, it's I mean, it's reasonable, it's a
26:48
Speaker 2: reasonable length. And I think something that I've struggled with
26:53
Speaker 2: and I've and this is a book for clinicians, but
26:59
Speaker 2: something that I've struggle with in the trauma literature, for
27:02
Speaker 2: both myself and for clients is I think that a
27:06
Speaker 2: lot of it is re traumatizing. A lot of it
27:08
Speaker 2: is detailed descriptions about trauma and how those things are,
27:14
Speaker 2: you know, healed, which is so important for for us
27:17
Speaker 2: as clinicians to read and understand. But it's sometimes hard
27:23
Speaker 2: of knowing where to direct clients because they want information
27:26
Speaker 2: on nervous system healing but don't always know where to
27:30
Speaker 2: go for that to where there won't be lengthy descriptions
27:34
Speaker 2: of different traumas. But for clinicians, and I think this
27:39
Speaker 2: is that book, right, you know, there's there's information about that,
27:42
Speaker 2: but mostly this is a practice book about how to attune,
27:47
Speaker 2: how to resonate, how to use your innate skill to
27:56
Speaker 2: be with and and and it's less technique, right, It's
28:03
Speaker 2: not about here are some some things that we can
28:09
Speaker 2: do to elicit body sensation or we can do. It's
28:12
Speaker 2: really just about trusting yourself. And you know, if you
28:21
Speaker 2: know these things and then you can have your own embodiment,
28:27
Speaker 2: you know, then you can really make a difference in
28:30
Speaker 2: a person's life. And I think that that's it's incredibly
28:34
Speaker 2: inspirational and I would recommend it to anyone.
28:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, well said, I've read that book and it is awesome.
28:41
Speaker 1: It's one one I recommend all the time to people.
28:45
Speaker 1: Will have that listed here at the show notes page
28:47
Speaker 1: at the Traumadapers podcast dot com. Carrie, what's the best
28:50
Speaker 1: way for people to get in touch with you?
28:52
Speaker 2: I would love for people to get in touch with me.
28:55
Speaker 2: Probably the easiest way is to go to my website,
28:58
Speaker 2: which is Harry Jheckman dot com. And I'm sure you
29:03
Speaker 2: can put it in the show notes of how to
29:05
Speaker 2: spell my name, But there you can kind of find
29:08
Speaker 2: links to link up with me on social media or
29:11
Speaker 2: send me a message. I'm probably the most active on Twitter.
29:16
Speaker 2: Fits my attention span. Yeah, I love connecting with other clinicians.
29:23
Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome. What was awesome meeting you and having you
29:26
Speaker 1: on here again. What you do and what you're talking
29:32
Speaker 1: about here is what I hope that this podcast is
29:36
Speaker 1: about because I think it's so inspiring. So thanks so
29:39
Speaker 1: much for taking the time to join me today. Of
29:42
Speaker 1: course anytime, all right, take care you too. Two massive
30:10
Speaker 1: common s