Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / SWAMP MAN: "Brian Laundrie Won't survive in Carlton Reserve"

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SWAMP MAN: "Brian Laundrie Won't survive in Carlton Reserve" · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:07
Speaker 1: In the last hours, there is a renewed search for
0:11
Speaker 1: a so called boyfriend of we now know deceased Gabbie Potito,
0:16
Speaker 1: Brian Laundry in the Carlton Reserve twenty five thousand acres
0:21
Speaker 1: of swamp land. Why this as Laundry's parents say they
0:27
Speaker 1: are now finally going to search for their son, suggesting
0:34
Speaker 1: that they have been disallowed from searching for him in
0:37
Speaker 1: the past. Can he survive in Carlton Reserve? Has a
0:43
Speaker 1: new fresh campsite just been found in Carlton Reserve? What
0:49
Speaker 1: are the odds or is he far away on the
0:53
Speaker 1: Appalachian Trail or beyond? Joining us today a swamp survived
1:00
Speaker 1: val expert Chris Adams, also known as the Turtleman, and
1:04
Speaker 1: you'll see why. Also with me an expert joining me
1:08
Speaker 1: from the Appalachian Trail, what are his chances? Crime stories
1:20
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. First of all, take a listen to
1:30
Speaker 1: this breaking news in the Gabby Petito case. A source
1:33
Speaker 1: call close to the Laundry family. It's told me that
1:36
Speaker 1: law enforcement says they found fresh traces of a campsite
1:40
Speaker 1: in the reserve. As you know, authorities are currently searching
1:43
Speaker 1: for Brian Laundry in the Carlton Preserve in Venice, Florida.
1:47
Speaker 1: An attorney for the Laundry family says, the parents believe
1:51
Speaker 1: that's exactly where he's located. Quote. They don't believe he's
1:56
Speaker 1: in another area. They believe he is in the preserve.
2:00
Speaker 1: You're hearing our friends over at CNN. Let me hdse
2:03
Speaker 1: you an all star panel. First of all high profile
2:06
Speaker 1: lawyer joining me out of Florida, Dale Carson, and a
2:09
Speaker 1: former FBI agent, doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists joining us
2:14
Speaker 1: out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at
2:16
Speaker 1: Angela Arnold MD dot com. Founder and director of the
2:20
Speaker 1: Coldcase Research Institute. Cheryl McCullum, you can find her Coldcasecrimes
2:25
Speaker 1: dot org. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
2:30
Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and store
2:33
Speaker 1: of a brand new hit series on iHeart Bodybags with
2:36
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan joining me on the scene. Massasaid investigative
2:41
Speaker 1: reporter for w FLATV and our special guests. In addition
2:44
Speaker 1: to Massa, Matt Hogan you can find him on Insta.
2:48
Speaker 1: A castaway Underscore zero one eighty seven who is at
2:52
Speaker 1: this moment hiking the Appalachian Trail and special guests joining
2:57
Speaker 1: us from the swap. Chris Adams, also known as Quote Turtleman.
3:03
Speaker 1: You can find him on Facebook, Living Wild, and on
3:07
Speaker 1: TikTok also at Georgia Turtleman. Okay, first to you, Chris Adams.
3:13
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. Chris, it's my understanding, then,
3:18
Speaker 1: in a swamp such as the one you're familiar with,
3:22
Speaker 1: miles away from the Carlton Reserve, that there really is
3:27
Speaker 1: no fresh water. You and I have been out on
3:32
Speaker 1: the swamp together for an extended period of time. I
3:36
Speaker 1: was recounting the other day how within the first fifteen
3:40
Speaker 1: minutes we saw about thirty to forty gators. Oh yes, ma'am.
3:45
Speaker 1: Not their whole body, is just their eyes poking up.
3:48
Speaker 1: I did not see one suggestion of fresh water the
3:52
Speaker 1: entire time we were out on the swamp, Chris. Now,
3:55
Speaker 1: the thing about our water and okifin Oki is a
3:57
Speaker 1: little different. It's dealed with a lot of tannic and
4:01
Speaker 1: in a pinch. If you needed to drink it, you
4:03
Speaker 1: probably could. The problem down in Florida, where Brian is
4:07
Speaker 1: probably at, is that you're dealing with muddy water, all
4:11
Speaker 1: sorts of contaminants in that water, not to mention all
4:14
Speaker 1: the wild life living around there. And one, if he's
4:18
Speaker 1: in that swamp, he's going to get sloppy at some point.
4:21
Speaker 1: You can't just go into a swamp and expect to
4:24
Speaker 1: stay hidden for any amount of time unless you're good
4:26
Speaker 1: at it. Being familiar with the place is one thing,
4:30
Speaker 1: but knowing a place is a completely different story. I
4:33
Speaker 1: find that very interesting Chris Adam's aka Turtleman. What do
4:37
Speaker 1: you mean by that? You're bound to leave print somewhere
4:40
Speaker 1: like I do hog hunting up on the Oakmugi River
4:44
Speaker 1: here in Georgia. When I'm going through the swamps, it's
4:47
Speaker 1: hard not to make a footprint. It's hard not to
4:50
Speaker 1: bend the branch or break a branch as you're walking
4:52
Speaker 1: through practical jungle. And that's not much different than the
4:57
Speaker 1: terrain that Brian is possibly in down the in Florida.
5:01
Speaker 1: The swamps between here and there not too dissimilar. They
5:04
Speaker 1: all have pretty much the same wildlife, pretty much the
5:07
Speaker 1: same flora. And you know, people have this misconception that
5:11
Speaker 1: a swamp is just naturally a water body. It's made
5:15
Speaker 1: up of many different things. You've got boggy areas and
5:19
Speaker 1: shrub bays and bogs, you've got pine islands and things
5:23
Speaker 1: in there. So there are places people could hide if
5:25
Speaker 1: they had a mind too, but they would have to
5:29
Speaker 1: know that terrain like the back of their hand. See,
5:33
Speaker 1: like my family has lived in this part of Georgia
5:36
Speaker 1: on the Satilla River for one hundred and eighty years.
5:39
Speaker 1: They know swamps, There's no doubt about it. They've made
5:41
Speaker 1: their living in them. And of course, back during Prohibition
5:45
Speaker 1: when moonshining was a thing, a lot of that was
5:48
Speaker 1: done down here. Yeah, because what lawman is going to
5:51
Speaker 1: go into the swamp looking for a steal? You're absolutely
5:55
Speaker 1: correct with me, Chris Adams, who was at this moment
5:58
Speaker 1: on a swamp. I want to follow up with everything
6:01
Speaker 1: you just said, because it reminds me, Chris Adams of
6:04
Speaker 1: something I've heard Joe Scott Morgan say many many times.
6:07
Speaker 1: Is one of his main tenants in forensics and finding
6:11
Speaker 1: the truth in a criminal matter, and that is that
6:13
Speaker 1: there is no action without a reaction. There is no movement,
6:20
Speaker 1: no crime without leaving a trace. What do you make
6:25
Speaker 1: of what he just said, Joe Scott Morgan, Oh boy,
6:29
Speaker 1: this is what I mean in a nutshell, Joe Scott,
6:31
Speaker 1: don't start preaching a nutshell. I won't. I'm very excited, though.
6:36
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, Nancy, the fact that they found
6:38
Speaker 1: this fresh site the first thing that I thought of,
6:41
Speaker 1: first thing that I thought of. If he's in dwelling
6:43
Speaker 1: in that area, he has had to create waste. And
6:47
Speaker 1: I don't just mean throwing paper away or cans. I'm
6:51
Speaker 1: talking about feces. And with that, if he dug a hole,
6:55
Speaker 1: he deposited feces, he may have covered it and it's there.
7:01
Speaker 1: Think back to what the FBI did that second trip
7:05
Speaker 1: to the laundry home. They walked in. Remember everybody's talking
7:08
Speaker 1: about the brown bag and the bloodhounds and all that.
7:12
Speaker 1: There's one image of one of those agents walking in.
7:14
Speaker 1: They've got two white boxes under their arm. I think
7:17
Speaker 1: those were buckle Mucoastal DNA swab boxes, so they probably swab.
7:22
Speaker 1: Why do you talk like that, Why do you even
7:25
Speaker 1: say that? You know everybody doesn't know what a buckle
7:29
Speaker 1: squab swab is for pizza? Well, what you do. What
7:32
Speaker 1: we do is we swab the inside of the mouth
7:34
Speaker 1: with a basically a Q tip. Don't make it sound
7:37
Speaker 1: so scientific, and you believe they got a buckle swab
7:39
Speaker 1: for that. They very well might have, because you know,
7:42
Speaker 1: this guy is not a registered sexipentary, he's not on
7:45
Speaker 1: they don't have like necessarily DNA sample on him, but
7:51
Speaker 1: they could have harvested from the parents their DNA. Okay,
7:56
Speaker 1: and then they're going to compare it to what they're
7:58
Speaker 1: the mother with MDA contrial DNA. Okay, hold on, just
8:01
Speaker 1: gotta see where you're headed. Let me go straight out
8:03
Speaker 1: to Massa Saiedi, investigative reporter joining us from w FLA
8:06
Speaker 1: there in Florida. Tell me about this so called fresh campsite.
8:11
Speaker 1: And we're getting that from a source close to the
8:14
Speaker 1: Laundry family. What do you know, Massa. Okay, So late
8:16
Speaker 1: last night, CNN reported that according to a source close
8:20
Speaker 1: to the Laundry family, as you said, the law enforcement
8:23
Speaker 1: says they found a fresh traces of a campsite in
8:27
Speaker 1: the reserve. Now, we have not been able to confirm
8:30
Speaker 1: this independently, but we do know that Chris Laundry was
8:34
Speaker 1: asked to assist law enforcement in their search for Brian
8:37
Speaker 1: at the reserve. That was information we got from the
8:40
Speaker 1: attorney yesterday and right now I'm texting with the attorney
8:43
Speaker 1: because Chris Laundry just left the house this morning and
8:47
Speaker 1: we asked if he goes to the reserve as it's happening,
8:50
Speaker 1: and it appears that that might be happening. I'm texting
8:53
Speaker 1: with the attorney right now. Okay, that really illuminated a
8:56
Speaker 1: lot from me. Massa Saiedi joining us from w FLA
9:12
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace out to the founder and
9:18
Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl hold on
9:22
Speaker 1: all of this happening. When the parents saying, oh, now
9:24
Speaker 1: we're going to go search. We haven't been allowed to
9:27
Speaker 1: in the past, blah blah blah. What about this? What
9:31
Speaker 1: if that source is correct, traces of campsite have been
9:36
Speaker 1: found and they need the father or the mother to
9:39
Speaker 1: come identify an object. We know Gabby Petito was first
9:44
Speaker 1: identified when her stepfather saw her sweatshirt and he knew
9:49
Speaker 1: immediately that's Gabby's What if they found an object out
9:53
Speaker 1: there and they're asking the father to identify an object,
9:56
Speaker 1: what do you make of that? Well, one thing, I
9:58
Speaker 1: truly believe it's easy or got some type of hammock
10:01
Speaker 1: or enu where he is off the ground. He's not
10:04
Speaker 1: staying wet. I mean his thoughts can't be saturated for
10:08
Speaker 1: twenty three days. I mean the skin will be coming all.
10:11
Speaker 1: So what's interesting to me? Or two things. One in
10:16
Speaker 1: the last day, the family has not only changed the timeline,
10:22
Speaker 1: they changed the location. So that tells me they know
10:26
Speaker 1: law enforcement is clothes. The other thing again, I'm just
10:30
Speaker 1: gonna keep you know. Now, let me just clarify something.
10:34
Speaker 1: Aren't you the one? And you too, Joe Scott Morgan.
10:38
Speaker 1: They said, you guys thought he was up in the
10:40
Speaker 1: Appalachian Trail. Well, let me let me go back if
10:43
Speaker 1: you remember, and you said appealation and I said, no appellation.
10:49
Speaker 1: And I can't believe, oh yeah, that we've all discarded that.
10:55
Speaker 1: That's not a choice. Joe Scott go ahead, did anything?
11:00
Speaker 1: From day one? I compared him to Eric Robert Rudolph
11:03
Speaker 1: from day one, I said, he will go somewhere he's
11:06
Speaker 1: familiar with, that he feels comfortable. There are two places,
11:10
Speaker 1: Florida being one, but the other is the Applaian Trail.
11:15
Speaker 1: And here's another thing. N see, when we first hang
11:17
Speaker 1: on this is important. When we first heard about Bill Cosby,
11:23
Speaker 1: Everybody's like, oh, I can't believe that not you know,
11:25
Speaker 1: Bill Cosby, Well come forward. Then you've got fourteen women
11:30
Speaker 1: come forward. Then you've got twenty seven women come forward.
11:33
Speaker 1: If you have two dozen people giving you a similar area,
11:37
Speaker 1: a similar sighting, a similar interaction, you can't ignore it.
11:42
Speaker 1: So again, I think it's important that you know you
11:45
Speaker 1: had me be their lives. I think it's important we're
11:48
Speaker 1: talking about it. But again, you have different groups doing
11:52
Speaker 1: different jobs. You've got one in the reserve, one doing
11:55
Speaker 1: the Appelaian trail, one doing the phone, one doing the
11:57
Speaker 1: crime scene, and w woman everybody he should be looking
12:00
Speaker 1: for this guy. Okay, let me clarify something, or let
12:04
Speaker 1: me have you clarified, Cheryl, you said that two things
12:06
Speaker 1: have changed. Appearance, changed the timeline, which they did. They
12:09
Speaker 1: are now saying Brian Laundry left a day earlier and
12:12
Speaker 1: that they forgot and that the FBI communication jogged their memory.
12:21
Speaker 1: What it was it was where that Ford Mustang was
12:23
Speaker 1: part and the day it was part. It's what jogged
12:25
Speaker 1: their memory. But now you're saying they also are changing
12:28
Speaker 1: the location in a nutshell. Cheryl explained, they originally said
12:32
Speaker 1: he went to the Carlton Reserve. Now they're saying his
12:35
Speaker 1: car with seventeen miles away at another part, that it
12:40
Speaker 1: connects to the Culton Reserve eventually, Damia, catchy, exactly right,
12:45
Speaker 1: But again that ain't the same thing you've been challenging. No,
12:48
Speaker 1: that's not. It's like saying Jackie left her car at
12:53
Speaker 1: targeting and going oh, no, it was at Sacksmith Avenue.
12:56
Speaker 1: That's a whole another ken of worms. And that's not
12:59
Speaker 1: a state they would have made unintentionally. And let me
13:03
Speaker 1: say one more thing. They're now saying, oh, we have
13:05
Speaker 1: been allowed to search. You could have searched for him
13:07
Speaker 1: from the thirteenth to the seventeenth, and you didn't, so
13:11
Speaker 1: you yourself decided not to search for him from the
13:16
Speaker 1: thirteenth through the seventeenth when you finally reported here. Very quickly,
13:20
Speaker 1: let's play our cut two sixty three, our friends at
13:23
Speaker 1: News Nation. Now it has been quiet at the Carlton
13:27
Speaker 1: Reserve lately, but not today. Dozens of FBI agents back
13:31
Speaker 1: in the swamp looking for any sign of Brian laundry.
13:34
Speaker 1: Why this spot and why the renewed attention here today?
13:38
Speaker 1: The FBI won't comment, they're going to stop in this area.
13:43
Speaker 1: And again we don't know why or what they're doing,
13:45
Speaker 1: but we're looking and today at the over twenty four
13:48
Speaker 1: thousand acres swamp, this appeared a drone, but not like
13:51
Speaker 1: the ones we're used to seeing. It's almost like a
13:54
Speaker 1: mini plane. We know that the activity has increased in
13:58
Speaker 1: Carlton Reserve. Why I want to circle back in Matt Hogan,
14:02
Speaker 1: who was at this moment hiking the Appalachian Shrill. I'm
14:05
Speaker 1: going to get to you just one moment where we
14:07
Speaker 1: were talking about the Carlton Reserve right now. Chris Adams
14:10
Speaker 1: joining me swamp survival expert on Facebook. He's at Living
14:15
Speaker 1: Wild TikTok at Georgia Turtleman. Okay, you heard Sheryl McCollum
14:20
Speaker 1: talking about he would have to have let's just say,
14:23
Speaker 1: a hammock or some sort of an apparatus where he's
14:27
Speaker 1: not on the wet earth and the swamp. Could you
14:31
Speaker 1: tell me, Chris Adams, what this guy needs to survive
14:35
Speaker 1: in Carlton Reserve. How is he doing it? Well, this
14:38
Speaker 1: is coming from someone who literally camps in a bedroll
14:42
Speaker 1: with a wool blanket and that's about it. But you
14:45
Speaker 1: know these people that go out there and Chris we're
14:50
Speaker 1: just learning that Fox has confirmed laundry dad just entered
14:56
Speaker 1: Carlton Reserve, So pass that on. Brian Lawry's father has
15:02
Speaker 1: just entered Carlton Reserve. Now we don't need him for DNA.
15:08
Speaker 1: He's there for something else. Either he's really there searching
15:12
Speaker 1: or they're having him identify something. That would be my speculation. Okay,
15:16
Speaker 1: back to you, Chris Adams. How's he surviving if he's
15:19
Speaker 1: in crawl to Reserve, how's he doing it well? To
15:21
Speaker 1: run off of that? If the care and his dad
15:24
Speaker 1: been in there to try and identify something or verify something.
15:29
Speaker 1: You know, someone who's been in the swamp for twenty
15:32
Speaker 1: something days, let's just say he's been in there the
15:35
Speaker 1: entire time. He's gonna get sloppy after a while. He's
15:39
Speaker 1: not made for that environment. Nobody has made for that environment,
15:42
Speaker 1: and those who are still I find a hard time,
15:45
Speaker 1: as I was mentioned in earlier, leaving the ground untouched
15:48
Speaker 1: or a branch not broken. But he's going to get
15:52
Speaker 1: sloppy after a while. Something's going to be dropped somewhere,
15:55
Speaker 1: something's going to be left behind because he's going to
15:57
Speaker 1: feel like it's too much weight for you know, if
16:00
Speaker 1: you're trying to survive out there, any extra amount of
16:03
Speaker 1: weight you're carrying on you makes it much harder to
16:06
Speaker 1: go through that dense vegetation. And also just the sheer
16:10
Speaker 1: aggravation of it. It's mental aggravation. But how is he
16:14
Speaker 1: physically doing it? When you've camped in the swath, which
16:17
Speaker 1: you have done, how do you do it? Well? Normal
16:20
Speaker 1: folks are going to carry some amount of food in there,
16:23
Speaker 1: will them? Someone like myself, If they have even a
16:27
Speaker 1: decent amount of knowledge, they might know some edible plants.
16:30
Speaker 1: But the problem is at this time of your employer,
16:32
Speaker 1: you're you're starting to run slim on your edible plants
16:36
Speaker 1: down there. You might have for simmons, which have a
16:38
Speaker 1: great amount of vitamin sea on them. If you can
16:40
Speaker 1: find them, you can fish. If someone could probably make
16:44
Speaker 1: a fish gig out of a piece of river cane
16:47
Speaker 1: or a long limb of some kinds sharpen up to
16:50
Speaker 1: the end. But it's gonna be hard. It's gonna be
16:53
Speaker 1: tough on a person, There's no doubt about that. So
16:55
Speaker 1: if he's doing it, he's doing it by the skin
16:57
Speaker 1: of his teeth, you know, Other than leaving behind a
17:02
Speaker 1: feces trail. What else would cops be looking for, Chris,
17:08
Speaker 1: Oh lord, if he's slogging through swamp down there, and
17:11
Speaker 1: there ought to be signed ample everywhere unless the man
17:14
Speaker 1: knows what he's doing, anything from broken branches about shoulder
17:19
Speaker 1: high to a person. He's not breaking anything off low
17:23
Speaker 1: unless he's going through thalberries or blackberries, because then you'll
17:27
Speaker 1: definitely leave trail signs. If you look at where animals
17:31
Speaker 1: who walk through the woods bit deer or rabbit, you're
17:33
Speaker 1: going to have a game trail somewhere. He's not just
17:36
Speaker 1: going through that place without leaving a trail somewhere, And
17:40
Speaker 1: that's what would be what we would need to be
17:43
Speaker 1: looking for basically. But it seems to me, Chris Adams,
17:46
Speaker 1: you're the swamp expert that the FBI, if they don't
17:51
Speaker 1: have one, would need a swamp expert to notice those
17:55
Speaker 1: signs things that, for instance, you would notice that I
17:57
Speaker 1: would not notice, yes, ma'am, And that was going to
18:00
Speaker 1: be another comment I made. You know, you can go
18:02
Speaker 1: over a swamp like that with a fine tooth calm
18:06
Speaker 1: and you're still gonna miss a stump hole or some
18:10
Speaker 1: grove of trees. You're not going to be able to
18:12
Speaker 1: search twenty four twenty five thousand acres accurately. And that's
18:16
Speaker 1: not discrediting the FBI or anyone like but I have
18:19
Speaker 1: no experience in that. What I can say you would
18:23
Speaker 1: definitely need to employ someone who knows that area like
18:26
Speaker 1: the back of their hands. And that goes for you know,
18:29
Speaker 1: anyone who's grown up around swamps or dense wilderness areas.
18:33
Speaker 1: You've got to have a local who knows that place.
18:51
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace back to Massa's said, joining
18:56
Speaker 1: me investigative reporter with WFLA, I want to get to
18:59
Speaker 1: the truth of something, Moss, and I think you're my
19:02
Speaker 1: best bet. We learned from the Laundry lawyer that Chris
19:08
Speaker 1: Laundry was asked to assist law enforcement in their search
19:11
Speaker 1: at the preserve. Today, they also say this lawyer, since
19:15
Speaker 1: the reserve has been closed to the public, Chris has
19:18
Speaker 1: not been able to look for Brian. He also claims
19:21
Speaker 1: that cops had to quote postpone or halt Laundry's participation. Now,
19:29
Speaker 1: Northport Police says that's not true, that they never stopped
19:33
Speaker 1: the father or the mother from looking. What's the truth
19:37
Speaker 1: of it? Okay, so the attorney text said that after
19:40
Speaker 1: saying that Chris Laundry was asked to assist. As you
19:43
Speaker 1: just read, he said, unfortunately this was yesterday. Northport police
19:47
Speaker 1: had to postpone Chris's involvement. That's what he said yesterday.
19:51
Speaker 1: Now we reached out to north for a police asking, hey,
19:54
Speaker 1: did you postpone the involvement yesterday? Wasn't the Laundry father
19:59
Speaker 1: allowed to go to the Carlton Reserve yesterday? And the
20:03
Speaker 1: Northport police sent us this. They said, quote the FBI
20:06
Speaker 1: as the leaf Northport police would not be making these
20:10
Speaker 1: decisions and actions. The FBI would have to answer that
20:14
Speaker 1: if that was true. Well, correct me if I'm wrong,
20:18
Speaker 1: Sheryl McCollum. He was missing. Laundry was missing for a
20:23
Speaker 1: number of days before the FBI got involved. Correct, And Nancy,
20:28
Speaker 1: if you remember a week ago I pointed out that
20:32
Speaker 1: Dad's truck had that sandy white splash on it. If
20:36
Speaker 1: you look at the FBI trugs out there in the reserve,
20:39
Speaker 1: they've got the same splash. So it would appear to
20:42
Speaker 1: be he went somewhere off the road. Now back to you,
20:47
Speaker 1: Saieda Massa, Saieda, could you tell me this Laundry's car
20:52
Speaker 1: was well, it's his parents' car. The Ford Mustang was
20:55
Speaker 1: found sixteen miles from the Carlton Reserve. That that's not
21:02
Speaker 1: where the Carlton Reserve is. That's my catchy park. What
21:07
Speaker 1: do we know and what does that mean? Yeah, so
21:10
Speaker 1: we got a redactive police report yesterday about the abandoned
21:14
Speaker 1: Mustang and according to that report, it was we can
21:18
Speaker 1: place that mustang on September fourteenth, around two forty two
21:22
Speaker 1: pm at six nine sixty eight Ryerston Road. And it's
21:26
Speaker 1: that other park that you just mentioned. And according to
21:28
Speaker 1: a Google search, that's about seventeen miles away from the
21:32
Speaker 1: Carlton Reserve. Some outlets are reporting that the two parks
21:35
Speaker 1: are connected via a trail, but I'm trying to confirm
21:39
Speaker 1: that on Google Maps right now. Okay, what does that
21:42
Speaker 1: mean to Usher McCollum again, it means to me, we
21:45
Speaker 1: were told the wrong date, we were told the wrong location.
21:49
Speaker 1: So if law enforcement has been focused on one area
21:53
Speaker 1: for a period of twenty days, you know, maybe they're
21:57
Speaker 1: in the right area, maybe they're not. Maybe this is
21:59
Speaker 1: a right hearing, maybe it's not, but it's difficult for
22:02
Speaker 1: me to believe he's got a future daughter in law
22:05
Speaker 1: that is gone missing, and her parents are calling you
22:09
Speaker 1: non stop. They are leaving messages, they are frantic, they're
22:13
Speaker 1: texting you. And then a detective starts to call you
22:17
Speaker 1: about the eleventh to say, hey, have you seen her?
22:20
Speaker 1: Then the police come to your house and go, hey,
22:22
Speaker 1: get missed her van? Where's your son? And this whole
22:26
Speaker 1: time that you're not picture perfect of when you last
22:30
Speaker 1: saw him and what was going on. I just find
22:33
Speaker 1: that extraordinarily difficult to believe. Let's go straight out to
22:37
Speaker 1: del Carson, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former
22:40
Speaker 1: FBI agent at del Carson law dot com. Okay, del
22:44
Speaker 1: Carson jump in, Well, look, they're gonna if they found
22:48
Speaker 1: a site and they're reasonably sure that this fellow Landry
22:53
Speaker 1: was there, they'll just take a shamp dog and determine
22:56
Speaker 1: whether or not that's true. So the problem is we
23:00
Speaker 1: don't have enough information right now to know whether or
23:04
Speaker 1: not that site is actually connected to him. Now, it's
23:07
Speaker 1: been closed from law by law enforcement for a number
23:10
Speaker 1: of weeks, but that doesn't mean somebody else hasn't been
23:14
Speaker 1: in there camping. Because you can't put a perimeter up
23:17
Speaker 1: around that entire preserve. Okay, so do you, Chris Adams,
23:20
Speaker 1: you're saying that there. I believe you said pine Islands
23:24
Speaker 1: for instance in Okifinoki, that there are places to camp
23:27
Speaker 1: within the Carlton Reserve. Having never been on the Carlton
23:31
Speaker 1: Reserve down there, I'm just going from what I'm pretty
23:34
Speaker 1: familiar with. There's going to be a high dry place
23:38
Speaker 1: in that song. Even on most of your river swamps,
23:41
Speaker 1: you're going to find a ridge of land or a
23:43
Speaker 1: rise in that floodplain area where you could at least
23:46
Speaker 1: get up and have a dry moment to yourself when
23:49
Speaker 1: going through that type of terrain. Well, that's where the
23:51
Speaker 1: camp sites are. Go ahead, deal, that's where the camp
23:55
Speaker 1: sites are. Because I'm involved in swamps here in Florida
24:00
Speaker 1: and constantly we would do searchers through those areas. Formally,
24:04
Speaker 1: you find high ground all over the place, and that's
24:06
Speaker 1: where people camp. That's where they said of Moonshine Stills,
24:10
Speaker 1: that's aside from that, you've got to build an elevated platform,
24:14
Speaker 1: if you know anything, Can we just leave Maonshine out
24:17
Speaker 1: of this? Okay? No more with the Stills, But I
24:21
Speaker 1: hear you del Carson I hear you, Chris Adams. Yes,
24:24
Speaker 1: there's a place for him to camp if he was
24:26
Speaker 1: so inclined. The other alternative that keeps cropping up is
24:31
Speaker 1: the Appalachian Trail. We know he's camped there before, We
24:34
Speaker 1: know he's hiked there for several months and survived. Joining
24:37
Speaker 1: me right now on the Appalachian Trail is trail hiker
24:41
Speaker 1: castaway underscores zero one eight seven Matt Hogan. Matt, thank
24:46
Speaker 1: you for being with us and waiting. I know you
24:48
Speaker 1: are hiking at this moment going up Appalachian Trail. How
24:53
Speaker 1: hard would it be to hide out, say twenty feet
24:58
Speaker 1: twenty yards off the trail and go unspotted. It is
25:04
Speaker 1: absolutely impossible. Um, just four or five days that we've
25:10
Speaker 1: been out here has been raining NonStop. So if you
25:12
Speaker 1: don't have any type of UH gear to sleeping, don't
25:18
Speaker 1: have a tank on sleeping bag. Um. The temperature is
25:21
Speaker 1: fire about fifty four at night, So the livelihood of
25:24
Speaker 1: you surviving is slim to none, especially if you don't
25:27
Speaker 1: have any experience out in the woods. Um, and the
25:32
Speaker 1: likelihood of him being on trail of flyndon none. But hint,
25:39
Speaker 1: because he's gonna want to resurface and try to at
25:43
Speaker 1: least get some food. Water is very scarce, especially if
25:47
Speaker 1: you don't know how to filter your water. Um So
25:51
Speaker 1: I'd say the chances of him, if he is out here,
25:53
Speaker 1: him surviving, it's very slim. Okay, hold on, Matt Hogan,
25:57
Speaker 1: Matt Hogan castaway underscor zero one eight seven and Chris
26:02
Speaker 1: Adams with me at Georgia turtleman, a swamp expert and
26:08
Speaker 1: an Appalachian Trail expert. Let me go to doctor Angela Arnold.
26:13
Speaker 1: I think we need a shrink psychiatrists joining me out
26:16
Speaker 1: of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Doctor Angie, Come on, this guy
26:20
Speaker 1: might have gone. I mean, boy, scouts go. I've even
26:23
Speaker 1: done the Appalachian Trail for Pete's sake. Not far, not
26:26
Speaker 1: far at all, but going on the Appalachian Trail for
26:30
Speaker 1: three weeks, it's a lot in the summertime, with your
26:34
Speaker 1: friends and your backpack, pull of pood and your camp fire.
26:38
Speaker 1: It's a lot different than on the run from the law,
26:42
Speaker 1: trying not to build a fire and sitting there in
26:45
Speaker 1: the rain with nothing to eat. Okay, different from out
26:50
Speaker 1: being out in the swamp trying to survive. How do
26:55
Speaker 1: I know this. This isn't just some suburban mama's boy
27:00
Speaker 1: who won't hold a job, who lives at home with
27:03
Speaker 1: his parents, who doesn't have his own car, and he
27:06
Speaker 1: goes hiking. He's a survivalist. There's a big difference in
27:12
Speaker 1: somebody like Matt Hogan or Chris Adams that can literally
27:15
Speaker 1: go out in the wild and live and somebody that
27:18
Speaker 1: plays at it. That's why we have houses, no offense,
27:22
Speaker 1: Chris Adams and Matt Hogan. That's why we have blankets
27:25
Speaker 1: and houses and rugs and stoves and grocery stores so
27:29
Speaker 1: we don't have to do that. So what's the likelihood
27:33
Speaker 1: of a weekend warrior surviving in these conditions you're hearing
27:38
Speaker 1: from Matt Hogan and Chris Adams. I think the likelihood
27:41
Speaker 1: is zero to none, Nancy. I have known of people
27:44
Speaker 1: who have who have prepared for months to do something
27:49
Speaker 1: like this. Meanwhile, for the past several months, he's been
27:51
Speaker 1: living in a cushy van, eating in restaurants. He's not
27:56
Speaker 1: prepared for us, living office girlfriend's debit card exactly. He
28:01
Speaker 1: and I think it's such a distraction because people are like, oh,
28:04
Speaker 1: maybe he isn't maybe he is on the Appalachian Trail.
28:07
Speaker 1: He can't survive on the Appalachian Trail. Nothing question, Where
28:12
Speaker 1: is this guy finding water to drink? I mean, lack
28:16
Speaker 1: of water will kill you before lack of food will.
28:32
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. Hey, Nancy, Yeah, just jump in.
28:38
Speaker 1: I want to hear your thoughts. Is that Massa Sati
28:41
Speaker 1: or Cheryl McCollum. Cheryl McCollum. Okay, how did I know
28:44
Speaker 1: that every every expert you have had so far has
28:48
Speaker 1: said there's no way he can survive in the swamp,
28:51
Speaker 1: There's no way he can survive on the Appalachian Trail.
28:54
Speaker 1: He has been successful for twenty four days. He has
28:58
Speaker 1: eluded the SEI, he's a luted the marshals, he's eluded
29:01
Speaker 1: his parents allegedly, he's a he's eluded dogs, the bounty hunter.
29:05
Speaker 1: He's eluded the k nines, He's eluded you know, YouTubers
29:09
Speaker 1: and tiktoks and the media in the general public. He
29:13
Speaker 1: has been successful for Dadgum near a month. Well, you're
29:17
Speaker 1: going under the assumption that he's in one of those
29:19
Speaker 1: two places. I'm not entirely period. That's my point. Okay,
29:27
Speaker 1: So let's let's go without Chris Adams. Um, everybody, if
29:31
Speaker 1: you have a thought, please jump in. Um Chris Adams,
29:36
Speaker 1: you just said he could be somewhere else. Let's talk
29:38
Speaker 1: about that. So we know he went camping at DeSoto
29:42
Speaker 1: Park in Florida with his parents while his girlfriend is
29:47
Speaker 1: lying decomposing out in Wyoming. They go for a camping trip.
29:50
Speaker 1: Not judging, just in analyzing. So where could he go
29:56
Speaker 1: from there? Chris Adams, you're theorizing a bit. You know,
30:00
Speaker 1: he could have before everyone was looking for him, hop
30:02
Speaker 1: to ride to some other state, to some other town.
30:05
Speaker 1: He could be in an entirely different part of the
30:07
Speaker 1: state altogether. We wouldn't know it. You know, there's plenty
30:12
Speaker 1: of people out there looking for someone with I believe
30:15
Speaker 1: it's the neck tattoo. That right, I believe it is.
30:18
Speaker 1: He's got a couple of tattoos. You're right, go ahead.
30:20
Speaker 1: I mean, I can show you plenty of people who
30:23
Speaker 1: look very similar to the guy just around my hometown,
30:26
Speaker 1: much less, I mean, all over the country. It's nothing
30:29
Speaker 1: for someone who probably isn't as informed from the news
30:34
Speaker 1: or what they sing online to pick up this guy
30:36
Speaker 1: who might need to ride and carry him somewhere else
30:38
Speaker 1: and not know I mean it's still possible in this
30:41
Speaker 1: day and time, he could be in another end of
30:44
Speaker 1: the country. Well, I have to agree with Adams. I
30:47
Speaker 1: have to agree with Adams. Massasadi before there was a
30:52
Speaker 1: man hunt in those days and the parents were covering
30:55
Speaker 1: for him. And remember, you know we've got a window
30:58
Speaker 1: now of several days. We think about four days. Lad,
31:01
Speaker 1: he's guested us now for twenty four days during that
31:05
Speaker 1: original time, Massa, I mean if it were me and
31:09
Speaker 1: I was going on the run and I couldn't leave
31:11
Speaker 1: the country, I would do exactly what Chris Adams just said.
31:16
Speaker 1: I would get as far away from where they're going
31:19
Speaker 1: to look for me as I could by any means
31:22
Speaker 1: I could, and that would be hitching unless somebody got
31:26
Speaker 1: him a vehicle. What about him, Massa, Well, we know
31:28
Speaker 1: that l I was at the scene yesterday. I was
31:30
Speaker 1: trying to talk to as many neighbors as possible, and
31:32
Speaker 1: we know that on September eleventh is when the neighbors
31:35
Speaker 1: spot at the police there, that's when they took the
31:37
Speaker 1: van out. So by September eleventh, obviously more for police
31:41
Speaker 1: were on this, They were looking into this, how aggressively,
31:45
Speaker 1: how much were they monitoring the home. We don't know,
31:47
Speaker 1: but yeah, like you said, Nancy, on September thirteenth, that
31:51
Speaker 1: is what we are being told now by the Laundry
31:53
Speaker 1: family attorney. That's when he left. And he wasn't reported
31:57
Speaker 1: missing for four days now three days. So yeah, he
32:02
Speaker 1: had four days. I mean, think about it. Think about it.
32:05
Speaker 1: Four days of hitching. How far could he get? Joe Scott, listen,
32:10
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you. You know, one of the things
32:12
Speaker 1: that Massa had said earlier, we need to keep this
32:14
Speaker 1: in mind. She said that this information about the campsite
32:17
Speaker 1: being fresh had not been confirmed yet they're still waiting
32:21
Speaker 1: on that. That doesn't mean he could not have been
32:23
Speaker 1: there at some point in time. I've held that they
32:26
Speaker 1: could have spirited him to some local location and have
32:30
Speaker 1: had him quote unquote cool his heels until he gain
32:33
Speaker 1: advanced to another maybe population center. Again, I'm thinking homeless
32:37
Speaker 1: populations you can blend in. They're not watching the news.
32:40
Speaker 1: You live under a bridge. You never know, living under
32:43
Speaker 1: a bridge like a troll. That is not where he is. Okay.
32:47
Speaker 1: I want to go back to Matt Hogan, who is
32:49
Speaker 1: on the Appalachian Trail right now. Matt, earlier you told
32:53
Speaker 1: me nobody could, I mean, unless you're a real pro
32:58
Speaker 1: could make it on the appalach Trail for an extent
33:01
Speaker 1: a period of time. And I don't know if you
33:03
Speaker 1: remember the name Matt Hogan. Cheryl and I like to
33:05
Speaker 1: talk about it a walk because this guy affected our lives.
33:08
Speaker 1: This guy, Eric Rudolph set a bomb that threw off
33:13
Speaker 1: strapnel that hit my investigator that I worked with one
33:17
Speaker 1: on one for ten years. He managed to live what
33:21
Speaker 1: was it three years Cheryl on the Appalachian Trail? He
33:24
Speaker 1: lived seven in the Lord saying, but you have to
33:28
Speaker 1: have the knowledge to be able to know what you
33:32
Speaker 1: can eat, what a type of plants to stay away
33:36
Speaker 1: from that will give you any type of rashes that
33:39
Speaker 1: you can't take care of on the trail if you
33:41
Speaker 1: don't have the proper medications. And water temperature is a
33:45
Speaker 1: big thing, especially right now during the season right now
33:47
Speaker 1: because it drops in the fifties that night, So if
33:50
Speaker 1: he doesn't have the proper winter apparel, you know he's
33:52
Speaker 1: going to freeze to death. And the water is the
33:56
Speaker 1: biggest thing, you know, if you don't have a water source,
34:00
Speaker 1: the likelihood of you surviving even a week. It's London
34:03
Speaker 1: none but man Hogan. Cheryl McCollum, who was on the
34:06
Speaker 1: Applachian Trail about forty eight hours ago reporting from there,
34:10
Speaker 1: says that fifteen feet fifteen yards off the trail, nobody
34:17
Speaker 1: on the trail would even see you. No, absolutely not.
34:20
Speaker 1: The density is very sick. Especially the fog has been
34:23
Speaker 1: really sick all day because of the rain up here
34:26
Speaker 1: in the elevation, So the fog sits very, very thick
34:31
Speaker 1: through the trees. So the you being able to see
34:33
Speaker 1: anybody is definitely very hard. But like I said, even
34:37
Speaker 1: if he goes thirty yards off trail, the like of
34:41
Speaker 1: him survived. If he doesn't have any pins, he doesn't
34:44
Speaker 1: have any type of outdoor ware, he's not going to
34:48
Speaker 1: survive in this. Playing hide and seek is one thing,
34:51
Speaker 1: but remaining hidden is a completely different thing altogether. You
34:54
Speaker 1: can hide behind a tree or in a thicket of
34:56
Speaker 1: shrubs and go unseen for a few hours hours, But
35:00
Speaker 1: when you go to getting hungry and have to go
35:02
Speaker 1: and make a campsite somewhere, keep yourself warm, keep the
35:06
Speaker 1: insect off of you, you know you're playing a dangerous game.
35:10
Speaker 1: Then if you don't have a no how and I
35:13
Speaker 1: think if I might add One other thing that we're
35:16
Speaker 1: not taken into consideration is, let's say he's in a swamp,
35:19
Speaker 1: or let's say he's in a wilderness like in North Georgia,
35:23
Speaker 1: anywhere along the Appalachian mountains there. If he gets cut
35:27
Speaker 1: and he gets in a puddle of water or something
35:30
Speaker 1: and gets bacteria, we're not thinking about his medical needs here.
35:34
Speaker 1: Eventually he is going to run into a bush or
35:37
Speaker 1: get cut along the foot or the ankle or the arm.
35:40
Speaker 1: He's going to have a problem. He's gonna have to
35:41
Speaker 1: doctorate himself after a while of going through or just
35:45
Speaker 1: use my neck of the woods. A swamp, you're going
35:47
Speaker 1: to get cut up, and if you're not careful, you
35:49
Speaker 1: can get sick from certain things out there. There's something
35:52
Speaker 1: to keep in mind. Sure, I'm a calm Listen, do
35:55
Speaker 1: you hear what Chris Adams and Matt Hogan is saying? Listen,
35:58
Speaker 1: do you think his mother would let him go off
36:03
Speaker 1: and live this long in a swamp or in the
36:07
Speaker 1: Appalachian trail. His mama has a good idea where he is.
36:11
Speaker 1: She's had a good idea. I knew that, But do
36:13
Speaker 1: you think they would pack him off to Carlton Reserve
36:17
Speaker 1: or Appalation. I think if you said, hey, do you
36:20
Speaker 1: want the Appelaian Trail or Rikers Island, there ain't no
36:23
Speaker 1: question where I'd rather my cowbe. Okay, well that's a
36:25
Speaker 1: good point. I didn't think about it like that. Okay,
36:27
Speaker 1: go ahead, Dell jump in. You know. Look, he came
36:30
Speaker 1: back from Moab and met with a family, right and
36:35
Speaker 1: then he flew back and he was with the gal
36:38
Speaker 1: and presumably, based on the evidence we have, he's somewhat
36:41
Speaker 1: familiar with her death. Now in that interval, they could
36:45
Speaker 1: have very usually located a place for him to stay
36:48
Speaker 1: that has table, refrigerator and food deliveries. He doesn't have
36:53
Speaker 1: to be in the woods. There's an assumption based on
36:56
Speaker 1: his history that he's in the woods. But if that
36:58
Speaker 1: family's got money, they could very easily put him up
37:01
Speaker 1: in a conventional house somewhere. It would only be a
37:05
Speaker 1: matter of time before he's traced there through a money trail.
37:08
Speaker 1: I mean, unless they rented it for a year. Any
37:12
Speaker 1: electronic transaction is going to be scrutinized. But we've got
37:16
Speaker 1: to think beyond Carlton Reserve, and we've got to think
37:19
Speaker 1: beyond Appalachian Trail. We have to look at the timeline,
37:23
Speaker 1: and we have to look at, for instance, that white truck.
37:26
Speaker 1: Dennis Davies said he saw Brian Laundry driving it. Not
37:33
Speaker 1: necessarily that truck, but that truck included. Does he have
37:36
Speaker 1: access to a vehicle? Is he doing what he does
37:39
Speaker 1: best camping in a vehicle. It's not really camping, but
37:46
Speaker 1: it's going from place to place. The only thing is,
37:49
Speaker 1: even when you go to an RV camp or campground,
37:52
Speaker 1: somebody lets you in, would they identify him or is
37:55
Speaker 1: he doing dispersed camping out beyond a normal campground out
38:00
Speaker 1: in the wild. That's what he does. Where is Brian Laundry?
38:05
Speaker 1: And Del Carson said earlier, and I think he's right.
38:09
Speaker 1: We don't know enough. For instance, Joe Scott, when we
38:14
Speaker 1: hear there's a fresh campsite or evidence of a fresh
38:17
Speaker 1: camp site, does that mean do they say massa? Do
38:21
Speaker 1: they say fresh evidence of a camp site or evidence
38:24
Speaker 1: of a fresh camp site. I'm pulling it up right
38:27
Speaker 1: now because that's actually pretty important. You know, words matter.
38:31
Speaker 1: Fresh traces of a campsite according to Cuomo, So does
38:37
Speaker 1: that mean they're just finding an old camp site or
38:41
Speaker 1: does it mean they've just found evidence of a recent
38:44
Speaker 1: camp site. Go ahead, Cheryl, I think it's important to
38:47
Speaker 1: point out that near Gabby's body was a fire ring.
38:52
Speaker 1: Somebody had made some type of fire in close proximity
38:56
Speaker 1: to her death. When we go and my brother in
39:01
Speaker 1: law will make a fire a certain way, very different
39:03
Speaker 1: than the way Walter do it, and that's very different
39:06
Speaker 1: than the way husb will do it. My brother in
39:08
Speaker 1: law digs out a ring and then puts rocks down
39:11
Speaker 1: low in the ground, walk puts them tooth stack. Where's
39:14
Speaker 1: hugg That's put them straight on the ground in a ring,
39:17
Speaker 1: so I can tell from a distance who made it.
39:19
Speaker 1: That's another thing. It's a fire. If there was a
39:22
Speaker 1: camp fire in the reserve, if it was built similar
39:26
Speaker 1: to the one in Wyoming, that could be another connection.
39:30
Speaker 1: That's a very valid point right there. If I'm o D.
39:33
Speaker 1: Chris Adams, you're right again, okay. Matt Hoggan on the
39:37
Speaker 1: applation trail for Pete satan Man, keep your eyes open,
39:40
Speaker 1: Chris Itams, Del Carson, Doctor Angie, Sheryl McCallum, Joe Scott Morgan,
39:44
Speaker 1: my society, and you, our listeners and our viewers. Thank you.
39:50
Speaker 1: For being with us today as the search goes on.
39:52
Speaker 1: And let's not forget what this is really all about.
39:55
Speaker 1: This is about Gabby Petito and her murder, her homicide.
40:01
Speaker 1: Let justice be done. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off,
40:05
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,