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213. "Psychiatry Is 90% a Scam" — A Psychiatrist Speaks Out · Radically Genuine

• John Yaakov Guterson (00:00.621) Okay. Dr. McFillin (00:02.53) Welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast. I am Dr. Roger McFillin. For the better part of a century, we've been sold a story, a materialist version of reality that says, you are nothing more than firing neurons determined by genetics. That your deepest longings, your sense of purpose, your moments of transcendence, these are just chemical accidents, background noise in a biological machine. Yes, you are a series of parts in a machine. The very idea has led to an unprecedented chronic disease epidemic and mental health crisis. Modern psychiatry was built on this foundation and from it emerged an industry, not a healing tradition, but an industry that has systematically reduced the human soul to a checklist of symptoms and a prescription pad. Think about what that means. An entire profession trained to look at a person in spiritual crisis and see only brain malfunction. Trained to meet existential despair with a pill that numbs you to the very questions your psyche is begging you to ask. This isn't an accident, this is my dissolve. So John, I'm gonna start over. It's very loud on your end. Do you have a microphone sensitivity? Can we turn that down? Like, when I do my opening, I wouldn't want you probably touching papers or other things. John Yaakov Guterson (01:31.485) okay. I didn't realize. Okay. Is that better? Dr. McFillin (01:34.143) Only because your mic is so sensitive it picked up everything really loud. Can you turn it down a little? John Yaakov Guterson (01:39.223) Gotcha, sorry about that, Chief. Is that down right now? I think it sounds less to me. Dr. McFillin (01:46.06) Now it's really high. So it's going up on red. Is there a way you can turn it down? Your microphone is picking up on everything. John Yaakov Guterson (01:49.12) Okay. John Yaakov Guterson (01:56.749) Hello? Is that bad? Hmm, now I can't hear. Can hardly hear. Dr. McFillin (02:03.214) You can't hear, you're just, that's your microphone, that's your headphones, I think. So if you can't hear, you're turning your headphones, but it's a very sensitive mic that's picking up everything. Is there a way to alter that? John Yaakov Guterson (02:03.653) Is that better? John Yaakov Guterson (02:18.669) If you'll give me a moment, let me get my smart son in the room here, okay? Because he's more savvy at this than I am. Is that okay? Yeah. Dr. McFillin (02:27.426) Yeah, yeah. So we want to turn it down a little bit. John Yaakov Guterson (02:37.421) Speak up. Please come up. John Yaakov Guterson (02:51.851) He says the mic is really loud and picking up everything. John Yaakov Guterson (03:00.813) Is that the reason? John Yaakov Guterson (03:10.399) Is that better? Dr. McFillin (03:12.386) Say your name again. John Yaakov Guterson (03:14.965) John Yaakov Gooderson. Dr. McFillin (03:20.654) Okay, go ahead and one more time. John Yaakov Guterson (03:22.317) John Yaakov Gooderson. Dr. McFillin (03:25.598) It's still fairly loud, but I think as long as you're not touching papers and other things, it'll be fine. We can adjust it on our end. Just be careful of other noise you're making with your hands. Because it looks very sensitive. So like even moving papers was like really loud. But it's fine. John Yaakov Guterson (03:36.972) Okay. John Yaakov Guterson (03:42.285) OK. I will be careful. I think we're OK. Thanks. you can hear me OK? Because, yeah, I mean. Dr. McFillin (03:46.478) All right, so we're gonna, yeah, we'll start. Yeah, we'll start again. Yeah, you're fine. just like very, very, it picks up every noise you got. It's a very sensitive microphone and it's a little bit louder. We'll just adjust it on our end. John Yaakov Guterson (04:00.685) Okay, thank you. Dr. McFillin (04:04.398) Okay, I'm gonna start again. Dr. McFillin (04:09.506) Welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast. I am Dr. Roger McPhilin. For the better part of a century, we've been sold a story, a materialist version of reality that says you're nothing more than firing of neurons determined by genetics, that your deepest longings, your sense of purpose, your moments of transcendence, these are just chemical accidents, background noise in a biological machine. Yes, you are viewed as a series of parts in a machine from the medical establishment. This very idea has led to an unprecedented chronic disease epidemic and mental health crisis. Modern psychiatry was built on this foundation and from it emerged an industry, not a healing tradition, but an industry that has systematically reduced the human soul to a checklist of symptoms and a prescription pad. And think about what that means. An entire profession trained to look at a person in spiritual crisis and only brain malfunction. Trained to meet existential despair with a pill that numbs you to the very questions your psyche is begging you ask. I don't think this is an accident, I think it's by design. When you sever people from the possibility that their suffering might mean something, that their struggles might be invitations rather than disorders, you create the perfect consumer. Dependent, compliant, disconnected from the deeper wisdom that lives within them. So when a psychiatrist, someone who went through that entire training apparatus, who was steeped in materialist dogma, comes out the other side and says, there's something more here, spiritual connection isn't just nice to have, it's essential to healing. That's not just rare, that's revolutionary. And I had to have a conversation with this gentleman. His name is Dr. John Yakov Guderson. and he's got a pretty interesting background and the way that he communicates and shares his story and his ideas I think are, I think you're going to find a bit entertaining, but I'm more interested in picking his brain and to understand how he works with people in the system that is is designed to become nothing more than a prescription pad. I want to welcome Dr. John Yakov. Dr. McFillin (06:36.002) Gooderson to the radically genuine podcast. John Yaakov Guterson (06:39.201) Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Roger McPhillen. Hello, hello. Dr. McFillin (06:42.894) Yeah, it's an honor to have you here. Doc, you've reached out to me. Let's just start with that story because you wanted to talk about the fact that we actually have souls. so tell me a little bit about how you found out about my work in the Radically Genuine podcast. John Yaakov Guterson (06:44.65) It's an honor to be here. John Yaakov Guterson (06:58.869) I have a patient, a patient I've had for quite a while, obviously won't say any names, but she came across an article that you read. And since she knows me well, she thought this would resonate with me. And I read the article and I was so impressed. I love the fact that you said 100 years from now, they're gonna look back on today and see what stupidity we had. And the whole thing was a scam. Well, I may not say 100 % a scam. I would probably say maybe 90 % a scam. And I wholeheartedly agree. And I said, wow, this is really, really interesting stuff. So I sent you an email, and here we are. You kindly invited me. Dr. McFillin (07:44.952) Yeah, I'm glad you're here. Let's just start with your background and the type of work that you're currently doing and then we'll go from there. John Yaakov Guterson (07:52.493) Sure. To make a long story short, I grew up in Seattle, Washington, went to high school there, went to the University of Washington where I majored actually in history and took a little bit of pre-med during that time. Thereafter, I took a Greyhound bus across the country, went to Boston and was fortunate to be a history teacher and a basketball coach, which I loved. I was a basketball player back in the good old high school days. And thereafter, or during that time, I was thinking what else would I like to do? And I became more connected to my Jewish heritage. And that was a key factor. Went to Israel for a period of time and suddenly became very interested in knowing more about the creation of the world, the creation of the human being, more interested in biology and chemistry. even though I wasn't phenomenally natural for that. I was more of a history humanities kind of guy. I went back, finished pre-med, got good grades, and got accepted to the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, where I went for four years. I was always, always interested in what is the meaning of life from the time I was a kid? What are we here for? always asking the big questions. It was the way I was raised. It was what my parents instilled in me and my siblings. What's really important in life? And so what really fascinated me was psychiatry. I also love kids. And so I actually did a little bit of pediatrics and got sort of bored to be blunt looking in the ears of babies. It's obviously incredibly important, but it wasn't my... my genre, my excitement. And so I went into psychiatry and was extremely fortunate to be accepted to the Western Psychiatric Institute and Clinic located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. John Yaakov Guterson (10:04.321) was a top-notch program. It was exactly many things that you are against. It was extremely scientific and research-oriented. I think for years it was the top research psychiatry program in the entire world, getting more money than anywhere else. And I started asking questions. I said, wait a second, this is all interesting. I'm learning about neurons and biology and basal ganglia and all these things, but how about the soul? And people looked at me like I was a little bit from outer space and nobody really gave me sufficient answers. After residency, I love the drama of the, well, I don't mean to demean it, but the cuckoo's nest, if we can use such a term, the psychiatric ward. And that's where I turned and I quickly became the medical director of a couple of psychiatric hospitals here in Pittsburgh. And I loved it. I loved the drama of it. And at the same time, I started an office practice and started seeing patients there. But I always emphasized whenever I met with somebody, whenever I meet with anybody the first time, I always ask them the question, I start off with, what is your purpose? What is your mission? Rather than just beginning with symptoms and all that, I never jumped to medication. So all the kinds of things that you brought up in your article totally touched me on a very, very palpable level. And I've been doing it ever since. I'm My patients seem to love it, I would say. Not everybody, of course, but they seem to really, really like that approach quite a bit. So in a nutshell, that's the way it went. Dr. McFillin (12:05.645) I'm intrigued by that first question for patients because you're using language that I use. For example, mission. actually see myself, my soul here has a mission. How do people respond? Why do you ask that question for one and the range of answers that you receive? John Yaakov Guterson (12:25.505) I asked that question because I think it's a good entree into the idea of the soul that we all have. We all have a soul. all have a yearning for transcendence. That's what makes us human beings. And so I like, I believe that for a healthy life, and it's talked about by Stephen Covey and the seven habits of highly effective people, that it starts inside then outside. And he always says, begin with the end in mind is one of those habits. so if you have a purpose, if you know why you're here on planet Earth, then you want every moment of your life to be connected to what that purpose is. Directly, maybe indirectly, you need times of rest and relaxation, but that rest and relaxation is for the purpose of connecting with the purpose of connecting with what you ultimately want to do. The responses I get are interesting. Wow, that's a really good question. I never really thought about that before. I don't know what my purpose is. Maybe Dr. Gooderson, you can help me. Some people say to be happy. Of course, when I ask them, what does that mean? What does being happy mean? Some people say, you know, to help people. So I get a range of responses, but most of the time people actually do say, I never really thought about that. And it amazes me. They wake up every morning and what are they thinking about? it just, yeah, it totally amazes me. Dr. McFillin (14:04.56) It's Dr. McFillin (14:10.544) It's interesting because that exact question is what consumes my mind. So the fact that somebody may not be thinking about that is certainly curious to me. guess I want to understand more about how you may conceptualize human distress and despair. Because a lot of times what's going to drive somebody into seeing a mental health professional is their own internal struggle with some suffering or despair in their life. John Yaakov Guterson (14:15.58) Hahaha! Dr. McFillin (14:38.756) Do you view that as somebody is off their path, their soul is off their, what they're designed to come here for, like their own mission, their own purpose? John Yaakov Guterson (14:49.963) I don't view it that way at all. I view the suffering and despair as part of the journey. We, as Scott Peck says in the Road Less Travel, that starts with life is difficult and to recognize the inherent difficulties of life, that life is filled with challenges and difficulties, that's part and parcel of what life is all about. And it's how we meet those difficulties that makes all the difference. So on our outlook, the attitude, which again is what Victor Frankl says, it's how our attitude is and turns out we meet those things. So yeah, difficulties to think, let me go back to the good old days to think like, when everything was golden. Well, it wasn't probably all that golden anyway, first of all. And secondly, the whole point of suffering and despair, not the whole point, because obviously there's tremendous suffering, which totally consumes people, but the point of any kind of difficulties in life. is to grow from it, to learn from it. I say to my patients, this is an opportunity. Look at this as an opportunity. Don't fall into victimhood. Don't fall into woe is me. Look at this. This is an opportunity for me. And let's explore what the opportunities are here. So yes, they come in with despair. They come in with, doctor, I'm depressed. Doctor, give me Prozac. Doctor, I'm having panic attacks. All these kinds of things. And so we begin to look at it. I don't start going into a, like you mentioned, a checklist of symptoms. You know, have shortness of breath, have palpitations, you know, how's your sleep, how's your appetite? I all those things are important to explore, but that's not the first place I'm gonna go. I wanna get to know them as a human being, ask about their background. So despair is what we go through. Dr. McFillin (16:35.696) So if despair is normal and life is about suffering, and that's part of our curriculum, and how we respond to the challenges that exist in our life are really consequential in our own growth, what do you think about the psychiatric system that tries to classify all the various ways in which somebody responds to internal distress and despair? John Yaakov Guterson (16:45.357) Mm-hmm. Dr. McFillin (17:06.0) whether it's substance abuse, depression, fear, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, the way they experience their own mood. How do you view the DSM classification system then that tries to reduce it to this idea that they are mentally ill? John Yaakov Guterson (17:25.825) I don't pay that much attention to it, to be honest. I am aware of it. I'm not aware of every single diagnosis. I think it's ridiculous that they've sort of brought human life down to, I don't know how many, maybe you know the number of diagnoses that are on the DSM. I mean, it's just amazing to me. So yeah, we are not... We are so complex. There's so many things involved in what makes a human being a human being. So to bring it down to these sort of particular symptoms all the time and simply to look at it from that perspective is not enough. You need to look at the whole person. Dr. McFillin (18:09.297) Have you ever read Robert Whitaker's Anatomy of an Epidemic? John Yaakov Guterson (18:13.963) I have not. Could you tell me about it? Dr. McFillin (18:16.751) Yeah, I bring this book up because it's probably the most well cited, well researched book that reflects on the creation of a psychiatric crisis. So if I had to say the fundamental premise of the book was to demonstrate that how when we started categorizing these conditions as mental illness, and then the drug era was ushered in all of the outcomes, treatment outcomes, worsened dramatically. So we created narratives around the chemical imbalance and we pushed the narratives on the Western world that we have drugs to treat that. So it does bring into question the very conditions we're going to talk about, whether there are accurate descriptions of them. Like for example, we would probably both agree there's no such thing as major depressive disorder as a pure biological condition related to a chemical imbalance. Because we don't have good data to support that and when we started identifying that way, everyone worsens. But we could agree that people fall into great despair in life and their response and understanding their experience of it can lead to pretty severe limitations in their life at the very least, if not impairment in functioning. John Yaakov Guterson (19:25.069) Correct. Dr. McFillin (19:42.172) So we know like we're not denying that these things exist. What we're gonna do is we're gonna shift the conversation around them. One aspect of this book where I always thought was absolutely fascinating was this identification of what bipolar disorder is, manic depressive illness, is when you look at historically, yes, there were conditions where someone would experience what we label to be mania. And... there could be its polar opposite. There could be a severe depressive episode that the person may experience in relationship to that one event or at another time. Like we're not denying that that exists. But what the data suggests when you reflect on like hospital records and disability records is most people who ever experienced that and were even hospitalized tended to do well later in life. It was often a one episode event. Who knows all the reasons that led to it? could have been circadian rhythm, could have been metabolic dysfunction, could have been a response to a pharmaceutical or some type of substance. But that when people received hospital care back in the 50s or 40s, 60s even, that we saw they were able to return to normal functioning. So we had no evidence that you had this discrete identifiable medical condition called bipolar disorder, and then you were impaired for life. So then once we start doing that and then drugging people for life, we created chronic illness. It's skyrocketed. The conditions of bipolar increased dramatically as did disability records and return hospital stays. Like we've really created chronic illness. And today people believe that bipolar disorder is this discrete identifiable medical condition. that has to be under the purview of the medical system and psychiatric drugs for a lifetime. So I'm going to throw that out there. That's anatomy of an epidemic. I thought it's an interesting reflection on that because it's very well cited. You were trained traditionally. I just want to get an idea of my little diatribe there on what you thought of it. John Yaakov Guterson (21:45.335) Ha John Yaakov Guterson (21:56.366) Sure. I have seen manic episodes, many, many, having worked, having run psychiatric hospitals basically for 25 years. Many people in my office come to me, I say, after talking about purpose, I say, well, what brings you here? They say, I have bipolar. Okay, tell me what your bipolar is. Dr. Gooderson, you wouldn't believe it. This past Sunday, my mood goes up and down, my mood goes up and down. After the football game, my food goes up and down. I'm all over the place. I'm like a yo-yo, up and down. I say, Well, that's not exactly bipolar. So they say, well, what is bipolar? Well, according to the description of it, we go into it. You need at least five days or so of little need for sleep. And yet you have tons of energy. Go out on spending sprees, sexual promiscuity, risk-taking behavior. In the worst cases, people can get paranoid or grandiose on things like that. Now in the hospital, have seen this. Obviously, when they come in, they're in a intense, let's call it for better or worse, manic state where they're hyper all over the place, talking fast, pressured speech, all those kinds of things. So I have to go by what they tell me or by what their relatives tell me that they've been acting this way for the last week or so. And it finally got to the point where they're going to be dangerous to themselves or to somebody else. The thing about bipolar is it really varies. Some people can have, again, based on what I said, this manic episode three or four times in a year. Some people, many people have them once every five years or once a decade or one time and that is it. So they get labeled bipolar and that label is put upon them and in their medical record, but it could be John Yaakov Guterson (24:05.129) sort of meaningless if they have one episode every 10 years or once in a lifetime. Where it becomes problematic is when people have these discrete episodes, which I've seen, which can put themselves in danger. At that point, as I said at the beginning, Roger, I said, you know, I am in agreement with you about the whole world of psychiatry, what's happened to it, psychopharmacology. But I do think there is a small group of people who are suffering so much from these manic episodes. And I've seen lithium as the gold standard with all the potential problems that lithium can have on electrolytes, on the kidney, on the thyroid, with all the potential problems it has. I've seen it absolutely work wonders. Amazing turnarounds. What's most interesting is when somebody is in a manic episode, their insight goes out the window. They have no idea that they're in a manic episode. don't see, I even knew of a psychiatrist way back when who was bipolar and he treated people with bipolar. And when he went into a manic episode, he said, Guter said, I'm fine. I feel great. Don't bother me. So that's where it becomes tricky because when you see these people going through these episodes, and they don't last all the time, they will eventually probably die down after a period of time. Bipolar doesn't mean like you're always manic, you're always bipolar. Bipolar means a discrete episode that's happening. So then the question for the psychiatrist is, do I medicate this? Because I want to stabilize them and if they really are the med... manic episode, they indeed do get stabilized if you find the right medication, of which lithium in my mind is way ahead of anything else. You have to monitor those potential side effects and things on the electrolytes and so forth. Do you medicate it and help them? Or if you didn't, are they going to have another one in six months and put themselves in danger? What exactly do you do? How do you handle that? So that's how I approach it. I try to see if there's somebody who had a propensity to have John Yaakov Guterson (26:25.527) Well, they call it rapid cycling. People have, you know, many manic episodes over the course of a couple of years. And in that case, and my patients who I treat know this, who truly have manic episodes, I don't hesitate to give them lithium to closely monitor the blood work, closely monitor their levels, give the lowest workable dosage. And usually quite honestly, the the best level for lithium is actually below what the normal range is. Now, the normal range is usually 6.6 to 1.2, and oftentimes they do fine at 0.5. Anyway, just to be a bit scientific there for a moment. they do wonderfully. And without it, suddenly something happens and they go off of it, they get manic again. I've seen it live right in front of my very eyes. Dr. Gurderson, I'm now driving to the airport to go to England to have tea with the Queen of England. Okay. I mean, you know, because she's beckoning me and, you know, so these kinds of things that I see. So for me in that world, and again, a lot of this is the people I work, the patients I worked with in the hospital, it becomes in my mind, a life saving and I feel very blessed that I'm able to be in a position to help them by virtue of being a psychiatrist who can prescribe medication. Dr. McFillin (27:28.593) Hmph. John Yaakov Guterson (27:51.49) But it's far and few between. I mean, I'm very, very careful about this and I won't jump to it. So that's where things are at. Or if I help toward the urbanic episode, what's going on, then I meet with them and I say, well, let's explore maybe coming off of this. Maybe let's look at this. And some patients say, no, no way. I never want to go through that again. And so then they want to keep on taking the medication and then I'm faced with the decision, you know, how to deal with that. So. Dr. McFillin (28:26.766) Okay, that's some well thought out answer. And I think we're very close on how we see this. And so I get this question often and people often misrepresent my position. So first of all, I do see what Dr. Gudersen sees, but it's rare. I see it as a rare condition. And I see when we use various forms of drugs, that I see them as emergency medicines as tools. Now, I wear my mind, my curious mind, as a scientist who's a seeker of truth. What I say is bipolar is only a description of something we're observing. It does not give us information on what is the underlying cause. So I don't agree that there are such things as psychiatric illnesses. There are symptoms where we have not evolved to understand their causes yet. So I want to know what you believe are the potential medical causes to someone who might present with that type of symptomatology. For example, what we label as mania and it can become delusional where someone would want to get on a plane and go meet with the queen of England. John Yaakov Guterson (29:44.482) We do know that people who have, for example, calcium issues from their parathyroid can begin to be manic, can begin to be psychotic. absolutely, when somebody comes in the hospital, we do the blood work and take a look at it. Thyroid conditions as well could. There could be certain brain injuries that could result in what appears to be manic-like symptoms. And so we could look at that. Urinary tract infections, especially in the elderly elderly women can sometimes come out as appearing to be manic and then the question is Do we throw lithium at them? The answer is no No way, you don't do that. You look at what's going on medically and you treat that first and foremost That's the first law in psychiatry is there some physical medical thing behind it. Do they have Lyme Lyme disease? Do they have? Hypothyroidism, know, do they have a tumor in their brain? Seizure disorders, all those things, substance abuse issues. So. Dr. McFillin (30:52.423) What has happened then, because we don't get that from our modern psychiatrist. I'm very well connected in attune to what's happening in corporate medicine. And so no longer are psychiatrists taking that investigative stance. I'm a medical professional and I want to rule out conditions, right? And so you said the first law of psychiatry, really it's rule outs, right? If there is some medical condition that's influencing the symptomatology, John Yaakov Guterson (31:01.227) Hahaha. John Yaakov Guterson (31:17.367) Mm-hmm. Dr. McFillin (31:21.655) as a medical professional, as a physician, it is my responsibility to be able to investigate what has happened where that is now eliminated and people are just receiving the diagnosis in 15 to 20 minutes sent home with a prescription. And when they go into inpatient care, they're not even receiving a full battery of medical tests. John Yaakov Guterson (31:45.548) I'm not sure if I agree totally, because when people go into an emergency room, they went to the emergency rooms of the hospital I worked at, they would receive blood work. It would be looked at. I do think that, at least I hope, that most psychiatrists do first and foremost look and see if there's anything medical going on. I think the problem is once they eliminate that there's something medical going on, then they jump and say, okay, this is bipolar. This is major depression. This is psychiatric illness. And therefore, therefore the cure, the treatment is to throw lithium or Depakote or Lemicdol or Prozac at them. And they don't take the time to look at the larger matters that are going on. Now, the reason behind this is because, look, I'm an old guy, okay? So I went to medical school quite a while ago. But think about what it takes to become a psychiatrist. You have to go through undergraduate. You have to take two years of chemistry, one year of biology, one year of physics, mathematics. Then you go to medical school, where you don't spend much time in the world of behavioral sciences or psychiatry. You're learning anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, all these things which are important. So if somebody is interested in the human journey, and they're not a scientist, They're not even going to get into medical school in the first place. They're going to get weeded out. And then the ones who go to medical school who are doing well and are interested, they're much more interested in other areas. So to get to the point of the eight years of undergraduate medical school to get to that point and then to want to go into the world of psychiatry and not be oriented toward the science of the brain. is few and far between. I'm lucky, I think. I got lucky, I got through it. The first day of my residency at Western Psych, they had us all there. Why are you here? I'm interested in researching the frontal lobe. I'm interested in researching the amygdala. I'm interested in this. I said, and I became a marked person, although I got along with everybody, and I said, I'm here because I'm married. I've got kids, I got a family, and I love John Yaakov Guterson (34:11.853) I want to be here because there's a great community here, a great Jewish community where I want my kids to go to their schools. And here I am and Western Psych accepted me. So here I am. And so I had a whole different outlook. But most people, when they get to this point, they're very scientific and they don't know how to relate to the patients. They don't know how to stop and pause and really listen, because listening is key. I don't know if I answered your question, but. Dr. McFillin (34:40.339) You open up more doors for us to investigate. So I wanna challenge you a little bit on the degree of medical investigation or the investigation in general in psychiatry and how we're labeling people bipolar disorder without investigation. So some of the things I know that we're seeing is because for example, let's take a 19 year old who was smoking cannabis. And if know anything about cannabis right now, the TH- John Yaakov Guterson (34:42.605) you Dr. McFillin (35:09.949) THC levels are quite high. We have good scientific data to say that this could induce psychosis, especially in a younger population. So I'll know that a particular kid, college student, is abusing cannabis and had his first episode after smoking cannabis, but he wants to keep that quiet because he doesn't want his parents to know he's smoking weed all day. Then he goes into the hospital and it's automatically labeled bipolar because you see denied smoking cannabis. Other things we see are people who are like pretty much nutritionally deprived, know, like living on processed food with their food in a screen and they haven't seen sun for a week and then they're induced manic episode. So we really don't understand why someone presents that way. It could be circadian rhythm. You're off your You are nutritionally deprived, sedate, like everything affects the body differently. And so one can have these reactions, it's without the investigation, it is so easy to be told that you, even at 19 years old, that you now have to be on what they call a mood stabilizer for the rest of your life. And that's where I still don't understand is how can intelligent people reduce their understanding of behavioral presentations to such an oversimplified and unsupported scientific understanding of this and then then recommend an intervention that without a doubt is going to create significant physical harm down the line. I don't understand how we got there. John Yaakov Guterson (36:57.62) sorts of problems. John Yaakov Guterson (37:02.221) I don't either. It's criminal. We do talk screens. Anybody at the hospitals I ran, there were always talk screens done so you can see if they're lying about the fact they aren't using and all that. So we can actually take a look at that and see. And if somebody comes in and they know they've been using cocaine or marijuana, I'm not going to touch them with any kind of mood stabilizing. Obviously, if they're out of control, then we give them something just to... Dr. McFillin (37:05.172) Yeah. John Yaakov Guterson (37:30.221) calm them down, they're getting violent, which happens often in the psych ward. So yeah, I'm with you all the way. It's criminal. if they don't have those things, again, like I said before, I have witnessed many, many, many people who have what they describe in good old DSM as a manic episode. And I've seen the wonders of medication treatment. And then when they come off of it because they want to or somebody took them off of it or whatever, then they have another manic episode. I have seen that. So therefore, I'm in the position of seeing these incredible turnarounds. And thank you, Doctor, and insight. I can't believe how nutty I was before. Thank you for helping me. So. Dr. McFillin (38:21.96) Yes, that's very reinforcing. Now, now I want to move beyond the materialist paradigm. Okay. Are you aware of post material science? John Yaakov Guterson (38:26.989) Okay, sure. John Yaakov Guterson (38:32.651) Explain it to me. Dr. McFillin (38:34.132) Okay, post-material science would incorporate this growing robust research base that suggests the understanding of reality is beyond the five senses, beyond materialism. What's the science base for that? Quantum physics, near-death experiences, past life. experienced major lapse across the United States in prominent institutions where there is empirical evidence that is gathered and consistent. This also includes telepathy. And so if this if when somebody dies and they have no more brain activity and they are identified as dead, clinically dead, and their soul then leaves the body is able to observe what the doctors are saying, what friends and family are talking about somewhere at another place in time before they know they're dead, like a car accident, something, some kind of emergency. And then they experience God and they experience angels and they do a life review and they understand from a higher perspective why they're here on earth. And then they return to the body and come back and report that. And that's documented thousands and thousands and thousands of times. That's post-material science. John Yaakov Guterson (39:31.959) Correct. John Yaakov Guterson (40:00.472) Okay. Dr. McFillin (40:00.778) What also includes post-material science is these mysteries, spontaneous healing, the mind-body connection, like placebo effect and placebo research, right? It's, placebos are not just something that's inconvenient for the drug industry. Placebos are demonstrations that we have the self-healing mechanism or capacity, and expectation plays a lot in that. John Yaakov Guterson (40:12.64) Mm-hmm. Dr. McFillin (40:28.293) and being in alignment with a belief system that we are now healed. And then we do emotions as actual energy, that we are spiritual and energetic beings. So when you consider post-material science, you can actually give a drug to somebody that stabilizes a, what we call manic episode and it's not the drug. John Yaakov Guterson (40:31.423) Absolutely. Dr. McFillin (40:53.173) It's actually the belief system. It is their mind. And we can measure that. Like, that's not like, we know that. We know this is clear. This is obvious. This has been demonstrated scientifically that we, there's some self-healing mechanism that exists. So that means we have to then expand our understanding of what mania is outside the limitations of what we can observe. If we're talking about post-material science and we see us as energetic beings, Is there other ways to start theorizing about what is going on when somebody is presenting with mania? John Yaakov Guterson (41:34.1) I would say absolutely yes, we do need to look at things beyond in terms of the medical approach that we have, the materialist approach that we have. Thank you for what you said. I'm not that familiar with these episodes and scientifically proven of people, know, so-called dying temporarily and then coming back and what's going on there. So I appreciate that greatly. We human beings, we are a soul. Essentially, we are souls living in a physical world, but we also are a body. We are here on planet Earth. And so as much as we need to connect in a soulful way and connect with that essential part of who we are, we also have to keep our feet on the ground at the same time. And the two really ideally should be working together. But yeah, the feeling of the soul being in the room when somebody passes, I've experienced with my father, with my mother, incredibly palpable. Right there, you feel it totally. But those were experiences where they passed away. It wasn't when they were temporarily and then coming back to life. The soul is real. The soul is essentially who we are. And as people can become more connected to their soul, more in sync with their soul, it can go a tremendously long ways towards helping them with what we call mental illness, tremendous. And it can nip things in the bud, keep things from happening, give them that strength. So I've seen it time and time again. And that's really how I work with my patients. Dr. McFillin (43:17.457) Yes, so let's then let's go a couple levels deep here. All right, if we are a soul and we are energy. And would you agree that it's very difficult in this three dimensional reality material paradigm world that we live in of lower frequency? Like this is hard being here in this body. John Yaakov Guterson (43:40.427) No, I wouldn't agree with that. Dr. McFillin (43:42.839) Okay, so you mentioned before that life is about suffering, that in this world we experience pain, there's loss, we see children, sex trafficked, poverty, war, murder. John Yaakov Guterson (43:53.005) Correct. John Yaakov Guterson (44:01.675) No doubt there's horrific things going on. So I made a firm statement of no, but obviously there's terrible, terrible things going on. But the point is not to reject the body. The point is for the soul, which is housed in the body to influence the body, to channel the body. We have a choice every moment of our lives. We are blessed with free will. We aren't stuck. with our DNA, obviously the color of our eyes and certain things we are. We aren't stuck with the nurture that we have when we are young. We have free will. And the more we can be in sync and aware and spend time with our soul, the more our soul can channel the physicality of our lives in a soulful way. That's really the raison d'etre in terms of why we are here. Dr. McFillin (44:54.336) I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you. John Yaakov Guterson (44:59.885) that we are here to bring more holiness, for lack of a better term, into the world and make the physical which is a reality for people. When people reject the physical, they're going the wrong way. Channel the physical. Dr. McFillin (45:16.33) I totally agree with you. So, but I want to move a little bit further past that. I think we are incarnate into this body under the illusion of separation. John Yaakov Guterson (45:20.512) Okay. John Yaakov Guterson (45:27.245) Say that again. Dr. McFillin (45:28.906) We incarnate into our bodies under the illusion of separation. So when the soul does leave the body, we understand and we see the interconnectedness of all things, oneness with all universe, a ray of light from the son of God, or the fact that we're a drop of water in a vast ocean, right? John Yaakov Guterson (45:36.141) Correct. Dr. McFillin (45:56.353) There's this interconnectedness of all things. And there's a vibrational shift that occurs, a frequency. Unearth is a lower frequency. It's a lower dimensional field where we feel anxiety and despair and anger and guilt and shame. So comparatively speaking, dimensionally, being in a body in earth is really, really challenging. I agree, we incarnate for those challenges. John Yaakov Guterson (46:22.272) Absolutely. Dr. McFillin (46:25.236) and that we want to stay in the body to be able to move through that for the soul's learning and the soul's growth. Yet at the same time, we are in the illusion of separation. So most people are walking through life not feeling that interconnectedness to all things, that be nature, a connection to God, understanding that they are a soul and a body. So that's why that question can be very difficult for us. answer. I think that the soul sometimes when there is that disconnection wants to escape, wants to experience that transcendence. I also think we're in an energy field which can be measured in post-material science and with quantum physics. We're going to understand things in terms of frequency and vibration. So I do believe there's an energy upgrade that's occurring on planet Earth. that energy upgrade is moving us from three-dimensional consciousness to five-dimensional consciousness, that we are going to move to the greater oneness and love of all things. But the body is having a hard time and people aren't educated on how to manage that energy. And then we enter into a medical system and that we label that. I think many things can affect the energy that includes your sleep and being connected to nature or not being connected to nature, substances. John Yaakov Guterson (47:48.727) Mm-hmm. Sure. Dr. McFillin (47:49.576) lot of other things. My hypothesis is that because we're so disconnected spiritually and because we as in under the illusion of separation in a materialist paradigm, as a culture we don't talk about these things so we don't know how to manage our energy. And I've seen people who have had what I see are spiritual awakenings and energy upgrades. where they feel that oneness and that connection to God, but they don't know how to manage that. And then it manifests itself into a meeting with a medical professional who labels that as delusional or religious delusion. They can maybe hospitalized or now they're creating fear around that their body isn't ready for what happens. And now we drug that. John Yaakov Guterson (48:30.359) Terrible. John Yaakov Guterson (48:40.203) I would agree largely with what you're saying. We are not aware of the godliness, for lack of a better term, that's there around us. We are far removed from it. We live in this very physical material world, and the things that are happening in our world are just adding to it more and more, with the whole world of cell phones and scrolling and all these things, which are just terrible. On the other hand, There are people who go for a weekend and they beat the drums and they get all excited or they take psychedelics or whatever to experience this thing, which is wonderful on a certain level. On another level, however, for many, many people, it doesn't have any kind of staying power. People get trapped once again with... getting involved in the physicality and the humdrum of every single day life. And they wind up being stuck in that. But ultimately, ultimately, like you I think alluded to, I think we are heading toward a time when the holiness will be heir apparent to the entire world. We're living in ugly times now, terrible times now. But I think we are, it's sort of like the terrible stuff that's gonna happen before the... The skies open up. The problem again is people don't have staying power. And to live a life where you're connected with your soul, what I say to my patients, connected to your soul and aware of your soul and living with your soul requires everyday work. It has to be an everyday thing. It can't be every Saturday when you go to synagogue or every Sunday when you go to church or whatever you do. It's got to be every single day, certain things you put into your everyday life. And people who do that have a much more meaningful life. And yes, they may still suffer, but they begin to look at the suffering through a different lens. Dr. McFillin (50:44.503) Yeah, great point. Can you share with me what you believe those daily practices are that are necessary for human flourishing? John Yaakov Guterson (50:56.043) Wake up every single day and the first words that come out of your mouth are words of gratitude. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Here I am ready to live another day. And that's what I say. I say it in Hebrew. I say certain words every single day, start off. And then after using the facilities, whatever, and doing a spiritual washing of the hands, I say prayers. which are, thank you for giving me my eyes, thank you for giving me my legs, thank you for giving me my strength. So the whole thing is connected to gratitude right then and there. The morning is the most, is the best time to get connected to these things. Then to spend some time with some type of spiritual reading that you do, something that you would do spiritually. Myself, I learned certain things in Hasidic philosophy. I spend my time with that, which is to me probably one of the best psychology books around. And it really inspires me and then it gets inside of me. And I do this every single day. Then to spend some time, people call it mindfulness. People might call it prayer in some way where you take that time and you pour yourself out. You may get distracted. Don't beat yourself up if you get distracted. Use that as an opportunity to get yourself on par once again. And you spend that time allowing yourself to be vulnerable and allowing yourself to reduce your worry and your anxiety that you're relying on called a higher power. So those are some of the things to do. Then song. One thing I didn't mention is I have an entire website called The Singing Psychiatrist. Song to be able to appreciate music and to, know, music. Song is the language of the soul. To be able to sing or to listen to music. And then the other thing is to reach out to others. Reach out to others. Do acts of kindness. And it doesn't mean just the people who are obviously to give maybe a coin to somebody or a dollar to somebody, a homeless person. But also when you go to the store that you smile at the clerk, you say good morning, you talk to them, everybody you meet, you... John Yaakov Guterson (53:22.529) meet with a certain warmth. So those are some of the kinds of things. I would also say another thing is to take a break at least once a week. Have a break once a week where you put the darn phone down and you turn the whole thing off and it's away. It helps the parasympathetic nervous system if you want to be scientific about it. And you have an entire day there where you're away from the craziness of the world. I don't know if everybody loves Charlie Kirk. But some people do and some people have different opinions. of course, I think it's well known that he did that once a week himself. And I've been doing that for years, know, the Sabbath day and you know, so those are all ways. And then it's a whole day where you're first of you're able to talk to your kids or you're together and spend time. So those are some of the things that can be done. Another aspect of this is simply to get yourself in action. And that's where acts of kindness go. We all know, all my patients always say, when I'm doing things, I feel so much better. And to get yourself in action mode. So those are just a few of the kinds of things. And it becomes an everyday thing. It's like somebody who's an athlete who works out every day. It becomes part and parcel of your life. It affects your neurons. You can change that way. And it's absolutely beautiful. And your feet are on planet Earth at the same time. Dr. McFillin (54:46.582) Doc, that's probably the best mental health advice that's ever been spoken on this podcast. And I'm grateful for it. And I totally agree with you. I am starting to implement a day of Sabbath disconnected from technology. Tomorrow is actually my first day I'm gonna start doing that. I think it's necessary for us. I will, as far as, as well as many of the practices that you discussed have been built into my routine. John Yaakov Guterson (54:51.211) Wow, okay. John Yaakov Guterson (55:01.229) Uh-huh. Wonderful, wonderful. Let me know how goes. Dr. McFillin (55:14.552) But I'm gonna transition this now to maybe this is a little bit more uncomfortable for people to recognize, but these kinds of conversations are coming into my office, into my therapy office. People are speaking about this more openly. I'm gonna speak from the Christian faith, and this is from Ephesians 6.12. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against... John Yaakov Guterson (55:36.717) Okay. Dr. McFillin (55:42.425) powers against the rulers of the darkness of this world against spiritual wickedness in high places. The question is around a spiritual battle. Is there an unseen spiritual battle that exists on this dimensional plane? And are we subjected and vulnerable to this degree of like darkness or even demonic forces that may exist on this plane? John Yaakov Guterson (56:15.189) I think I understand what you're asking. Spiritual battle, meaning there's those who are, there's those aspects of life which are good, pure, and then there's those aspects of life which are evil. Is that what you're saying? Dr. McFillin (56:37.122) Yeah, I can only speak to the Christian faith. I can't speak to the Jewish faith and understanding about this in spirituality. If there are forces outside of the scene and its impact on our life experience, the human body, on our soul, is there some kind of internal battle here that exists for soul? Or is that metaphorical? Is that energetic? How is that part of our human soul journey? And then I think the greater question that we get into is, is it possible that psychiatry, you know, if doesn't understand the soul, might be misunderstanding what's happening in the body. John Yaakov Guterson (57:16.621) Very likely. First of all, it starts with the idea, if I want to get biblical for a moment, where it says that when God created the world, when the world was created, God spoke and there was light and there was the plants and the trees and the animals and the fish. But when human beings were created, God takes his breath. and he blows into the nostrils, into the lungs of human beings. So right from the get-go, right from the get-go, we have a piece of God inside of us. I call it a chunk of divinity. My wife can't stand the word chunk, that's what I call it. So it's there. That is our soul that we have. We have this piece of divinity inside of us, and that's who we really are. Now, and that soul is pure, that soul is good, that soul is confident, that soul is impervious to the world's criticisms and the world's praises. That soul is honest and truthful. It is who we really are, and it is untainted. That soul is untainted. So why is there evil in the world? John Yaakov Guterson (58:49.313) I once heard a great man say, when you look at the world, there's the skies and the trees. When I meet people the first time, they seem pretty nice. Then when I get to know them a little bit more, they seem not so nice. They seem like they're manipulative, have a different agenda or something like that. And sure enough, when I dig under the ground, there's dirt and there's grime. Things don't look so pretty anymore. But if I go deeper, if I go deeper, there's diamonds and gems. deep within the ground. I just have to go deeper. The problem, the problem is not the problem of the soul. The problem is that stuff covers the soul, stuff goes over the soul, for all of us on different levels. As part of the human experience, that we have junk that goes over the soul. And when tons of junk goes over the soul, it could result in evil and demonic forces that go on. But there still is the essence of the person, dare I say, even the worst of the worst, people that we should have nothing to do with, people that sometimes to defend ourselves, we have to do what we need to do. The soul in its essence is absolutely pure. And I once heard the rabbi say the following. He said, when you look at it that way, the only thing that is wrong with me, with me, with the real me, the only thing that is wrong with me is that I think that there's something wrong with me. I think that there's something wrong with me because we have all this stuff on top. The purpose of evil, the purpose of negativity is to help us to grow, as I said earlier today, to help us to climb out of it, to help us to use it as a impetus in order to get more connected with the essence of who we really are. John Yaakov Guterson (01:00:49.899) The more we are connected to that essence by doing things day by day, by knowing what our purpose is, the more we do those kinds of things every single day, we will have a much healthier life. Will we be happy all the time? Maybe not. Is happiness the end point? Maybe not. But to make the world a more holy place, to bring more of that into the world, fantastic. To touch humanity. And actually that's, you know, to self advertise. That's the whole mission statement of my website, The Singing Psychiatrist. That's the whole thing. I have 750 videos out there talking about this very point. Dr. McFillin (01:01:31.543) I've met people in my life. Catholic priests, psychiatrists who are religious or spiritual, and they have shared stories with me. One particular story would be a woman who appears to be experiencing like a dissociative identity disorder. We used to call it multiple personality disorder, other people like delusional states. And the psychiatrist telling me all he did was pray in his mind and call in, he called in Jesus. And that person, John Yaakov Guterson (01:02:15.222) You're saying the psychiatrist did this? Dr. McFillin (01:02:17.612) sitting across from that client, actually while listening to this client, calling in Jesus and calling in angels and, you know, and then seeing that client in front of them, not having access to what he's doing because it's in his mind, start screaming to tell him to stop doing that, stop bringing in Jesus like things of that nature. In the case... John Yaakov Guterson (01:02:42.797) I the client is saying this to the psychiatrist who's just thinking these thoughts. Dr. McFillin (01:02:46.67) Yes. Yes. Yep. So, you know, the understanding is that there's a possession and exorcisms still occur. They're documented. We don't talk about them, but they're documented. So from like an empirical perspective, you know, this is a practice that goes on. My question is, because we've eliminated God, from our medical system for the most part. And we've kind of eliminated the metaphysical. Is it possible, like some of these conditions that we label as schizophrenia or psychotic disorders or delusions or dissociative identity disorder, whatever it may be, it could be something of a more demonic or energetic or dark energetic force that has inhabited the body. John Yaakov Guterson (01:03:44.718) I've met many schizophrenics. I don't know if I ever have thought about being demonic with the schizophrenics that I've met. I actually see them as incredibly spiritual people. I see them as raw brain. I see them as unfiltered. And they're so connected. I went to a home, I took care of many patients in a particular home where 15 schizophrenics or people labeled with schizophrenia lived. And I loved them. I mean, they walked around with their Bible because they saw me with my yarmulke on. And they say, tell me, Dr. Goodison, what this verse means here. This means there. So the world of demonic and exorcism, I must confess, I don't really know. I don't think I know that much about. Do people sometimes say they feel possessed? Do people sometimes say they're having command auditory hallucinations? coaxing them to do something horrific. Yes, I have heard that. But I see schizophrenics as refreshing, as opening my eyes. I love it because they are so in touch, because they don't have all this junk in front of them like the rest of us basic neurotic people do. Dr. McFillin (01:05:05.27) And it's a shame the way we treat them in this country. I've been looking at the outcomes. see the drugs that are used. That's another story. But let's go down to the command hallucinations to do horrific things. Are we to deny that there may not be forces outside of the physical, right? I mean, are we that limited, restrictive in our understanding of all of reality that we couldn't understand that to be energetic? John Yaakov Guterson (01:05:10.378) Absolutely. Absolutely. John Yaakov Guterson (01:05:34.038) It could be energetic and it could be something, I mean, there's what we, know, some people feel a voice internally and some people feel like they're hearing a voice externally what's going on. So yeah, there could be, I mean, I had a guy who was walking on the Pennsylvania turnpike near Pittsburgh where I live heading to Philadelphia because his girlfriend was there. Who was his girlfriend? A girl he met in his freshman year of college before he was diagnosed with schizophrenia. who looked at him in a certain way and he was convinced that she was totally in love with him and that he wanted to marry her. And somehow he thought that a voice was telling him she's in Philadelphia. And he got on the turnpike and I don't mean to laugh at him, I'm just the situation. He got on the turnpike and started walking until somebody called the police and they wound up landing in my psychiatric hospital. So he told me, Dr. Gooderson, I hear this voice. Now, is it really a voice? Is it passion? Yeah, it's passion. It's beautiful passion in a way, as long as he's not putting himself in danger. Is it a yearning? Is it an internal voice? So I love the guy. He was like, had all this passion going on inside of him. But he was putting himself so-called in danger by walking along the Pennsylvania turnpike at the same time. Dr. McFillin (01:06:51.823) Yeah, that's understandable. well, let's just go back historically. Biblically, there's obvious documentation of God talking to people, prophets. The prophets exist, right? Have we eliminated that in our culture? Or we just suggest it happened then, it doesn't happen now? John Yaakov Guterson (01:07:11.339) It absolutely happens now. And it's a tragedy that we need you and I and others need to start a major revolution to bring God to bring spirituality back into the mental health world. I mean, it's it's an absolute tragedy because it's so much a part of what makes us human. They say when you know, when we talk to God, that's OK. But if God talks to us, then we're crazy. That is crazy to look at it that way. You know, when God talks to us, I did a couple of videos on this as well. And sometimes you, I'm in the middle of an argument with my wife, let's say, happens rarely. have an argument, and suddenly something hits me and it says to me, John, stop. Think about it from her perspective. What's really going on in her? Get inside of her inner world. What is happening? And I say, why? Where did that thought come from? Is that the voice of God in some way? Well, yeah, I could interpret it that way. So yeah, I do think that God speaks to us. Does God speak to us in a loud voice that we actually hear? Look, I have felt that, but has I actually heard an audible voice? I can't say that I have. Dr. McFillin (01:08:28.261) Yeah, I experience it differently. I feel like God is speaking to me and guiding me, but it's different than my own thoughts. And I don't hear it from the outside. I experience it as a knowing it's in my heart. And then I have an energy or a nudge to do something about it. So in my practice now in the morning, when I get into stillness and I ask to receive, cause I believe that if you ask, you will receive. John Yaakov Guterson (01:08:47.149) Great. Dr. McFillin (01:08:58.947) I have just started documenting those messages and I've chosen to live my life that way now. I don't really trust me or my mind because I got an ego and I got a history and I worry and I'm a human being and I'm fallible. But those knowings. John Yaakov Guterson (01:09:04.973) Great. Excellent. John Yaakov Guterson (01:09:18.349) You know what they say about the word ego? E-G-O. Ease God out. Dr. McFillin (01:09:25.347) Yes, yes. I do believe that we have a divine spark within us and that the presence of God exists there. And so I try to be there more often and understand what that direction, that divine love, that wisdom is providing. John Yaakov Guterson (01:09:44.75) Right, and the more we think that way, the less we then define ourselves by our trauma or our failures or our ego. The more we have that connection and it gets us strength to deal with those failures and traumas. Not so easy, it's hard work, but boy, it's worth it. Dr. McFillin (01:10:06.14) I agree. This has been a fascinating conversation. I am so grateful and feel so blessed that you reached out to me because I don't, they don't get this opportunity often to throw these ideas around. I'm not saying what I said today is completely accurate. just like theorizing and talking about the spiritual. And one thing I know for sure is it's not just the physical that's in front of us. And I would love to just abandon material science and scientism. John Yaakov Guterson (01:10:17.143) Uh-huh. Dr. McFillin (01:10:33.276) And I hope we advance as a culture to post-material science, but I love talking about mental health from the perspective of the soul and energy and our connection to God and what is outside the physical. And you did not disappoint, Doc. I really do appreciate the depths of the conversation today. I know my listeners did as well. Where can people find you? It seems like you're doing some work, speaking engagements, to sing psychiatrists, different things to... John Yaakov Guterson (01:10:49.91) Hahaha Dr. McFillin (01:11:03.354) I think send a real positive message. John Yaakov Guterson (01:11:06.743) First of all, I thank you for inviting me and giving me a platform in order to speak. And this is my first podcast like this. I went and got this microphone yesterday and the headphones. And so I thank you. You've opened up a whole new world to me. People can find me. It's called The Singing Psychiatrist. The Singing Psychiatrist. There's a website. I am on Facebook. I'm on YouTube, Instagram, and dare I say on TikTok. I have videos, a couple videos every week. My social media manager has a newsletter that we put out every week. We're going to start doing other things, sort of 10 steps to achieve this or to achieve that. But certainly, people, if they want to, just put in the singing psychiatrist and you will be inundated with all sorts of things. Don't binge watch. Take them step at a time. Take time to absorb them. And let's bring more. more of the spirituality into our lives and into the world. Dr. McFillin (01:12:10.576) I love it. Dr. John Yakov Gurderson, I want to thank you for a radically genuine conversation. John Yaakov Guterson (01:12:17.559) Thank you, Dr. Roger McPhil, and appreciate this greatly.