Latest / Systematic Geekology / Lilith Unleashed: The Siren Who Shook the Borderlands

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Lilith Unleashed: The Siren Who Shook the Borderlands · Systematic Geekology

1:14
Is there an end to Lilith's power or does she just keep getting better?
1:20
Well, today we're going to be talking about Lilith from the Borderland video game franchise and other Borderland things.
1:26
You know, who influenced her, who is she influencing?
1:29
In the story of the video game franchise known as Borderland, I am Joshua Noel here with the one, the only, pot almighty, tj.
1:37
Ty Beery, Swan Blackwell, claptrap apologist.
1:41
I just don't think there's much need for that.
1:43
Just a good character.
1:46
A lot of people really do hate claptrap.
1:48
He's funny.
1:50
Yeah.
1:51
Correct.
1:52
With that though, we are going to mention what we've been geeking out on lately.
1:57
Mine might be, I think mine's cheating.
1:59
But Will always says everybody geeks out on something.
2:02
And this last weekend I got to go to Mammoth Cave national park and we're going to go to Cumberland Island national park later this year.
2:08
Me and my wife and I just started looking up other national parks I want to go to try to make like future plans.
2:13
So.
2:13
And we found a little pin at the gift shop that said national park geek.
2:16
And I was like, yeah, I guess that counts.
2:19
So I'm geeking out on national parks today.
2:21
Yeah.
2:21
Yeah.
2:22
Dj, what have you been geeking out on these days?
2:26
I don't know if you can geek out on like one movie, but I've watched Wake Up Dead man like three times in the past several days.
2:33
Is that the glass onions?
2:34
Yeah, it's the third one.
2:37
I've been wanting to watch that so bad.
2:38
It's so good.
2:40
It's just so hard to find time to do such things.
2:42
It's actually incredible.
2:43
I might start watching it right now while we do this.
2:46
I hope you don't because you know a lot more about this video game franchise than me.
2:49
But guys, let us know what you've been geeking out on.
2:53
Rate and review the show wherever you get your podcast.
2:55
It really helps the algorithms and stuff.
2:57
Tricks people into thinking our show is important when you rate and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening.
3:02
So we do appreciate that.
3:03
We also appreciate our financial supporters.
3:05
Today we want to shout out James Barrett.
3:07
James, thank you so much for sponsoring our show.
3:09
You rock, dude.
3:10
And.
3:11
And guys, if you want your own shout out like James, you can become an official member of Systematicology on our website in the show's description.
3:17
Also, there are plenty of other things you can do on that website.
3:20
You can get merch, you can leave a one time donation if you don't want to become a member.
3:24
You can see some of the extra content we have over there.
3:26
But the merch.
3:27
If you like a purple T shirt, Our Faces Behind Us series that we're doing today.
3:32
That shirt actually looks pretty good in purple.
3:35
So if you want to.
3:36
You want to.
3:37
Most of our shirts really don't.
3:38
If you're looking for a good purple T shirt, comfort colors, really comfy, kind of like a thick thread count.
3:44
It's nice.
3:45
I love a purple shirt.
3:46
Yeah.
3:47
But TJ also likes a simple shirt.
3:49
So that's why you should look at the TJ quote on the back if you want a more simple.
3:53
It probably also looks good in purple.
3:55
Almost definitely.
3:56
Yeah.
3:57
Well, guys, we do want to let you know if you want to hear more of our Faces Behind a series.
4:00
It's our annual theme this year where we're talking just about the characters behind the main characters of some of our favorite franchises.
4:06
If you want to hear more from the main playlist episodes we're doing with the annual theme, there's a link down in the show description for that as well.
4:14
There's lots of links down there.
4:15
Make sure you check it all out and lots of ways to enjoy what we're doing here and to participate.
4:21
So I want to encourage you to do that.
4:23
But for now we are going to go ahead and jump into the topic of today's episode.
4:28
Sonic the Hedgehog.
4:29
No, Sonic Borderlands.
4:32
We're talking to Borderlands specifically.
4:34
We're going to be talking about the character Lilith.
4:37
But first tj, for those who just maybe are less aware, what is Borderlands and when did you first play any game from this franchise?
4:47
Yeah, Borderlands is the looter shooter is how I would describe it.
4:54
It's a super fun first person.
4:58
It's kind of an rpg.
4:59
It's kind of not but action rpg.
5:03
It's a ton of fun.
5:05
Shoot them up, loot them up, class based system.
5:10
It's just.
5:11
It's so funny.
5:12
Yeah.
5:12
So funny.
5:14
It's just like the.
5:15
The progenitor of the looter shooter genre really.
5:20
And it kind it earned its flowers.
5:22
You know.
5:23
Borderlands 4 came out kind of to some applause because Borderlands 3 wasn't that great.
5:29
The series has had its ups and downs certainly, but for me it started probably like the year Borderlands 2 came out.
5:38
Borderlands 2 was the first one that I played and loved it.
5:43
Absolutely loved it.
5:44
Yeah.
5:45
So I had to go back and play Borderlands 1 and then the pre sequel and then Borderlands 3 came out.
5:51
I actually have not played 4.
5:53
Borderlands 3 bothered me a lot.
5:56
Yeah.
5:56
I don't think I've played all of them.
5:59
I've played some of four.
6:01
I eventually beat three.
6:02
I think the first one I played was the pre sequel.
6:04
And I did play one I played because of my roommate in college.
6:08
He had it.
6:09
The biggest problem that I had is I kept getting confused with Fallout.
6:12
I'm like, oh, I want to play that game.
6:13
And then I started playing Fallout and I'm like, man, this just is not as funny as I remembered.
6:17
I love Fallout.
6:17
Yeah.
6:18
But when you're expecting Borderlands, Fallout is just not the same.
6:21
It's kind of like when you're like, expecting soda and you get sweet tea.
6:24
Okay.
6:24
How much you like sweet tea, but if you think you're drinking Coke, it's not good.
6:28
Yeah.
6:28
Unless you're, like, in specific parts of New Vegas.
6:32
Fall in New Vegas.
6:34
Yeah, I could see it then.
6:34
It's just not the same.
6:36
I think, to me, if you're familiar with Ratchet and Clank, how Deadpool relates to Spider Man, I think is Borderlands to Ratchet and Clank.
6:44
Because it's like, you could tell the similarities.
6:46
They're very obviously not the same character.
6:48
Similar sense of humor.
6:50
And one is very much for more mature audiences, you know?
6:53
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
6:55
That's a good way to put it.
6:57
Borderlands is crude and crass and a ton of fun.
7:01
And I do think.
7:02
I think, and I think a lot of people agree that Borderlands 2 is the best one in the series, which sounds like the only one that Josh hasn't played, which makes sense.
7:10
That's also.
7:13
Yeah, that's.
7:15
That's what those characters are from right there.
7:17
I would love to play Borderlands too.
7:18
It's so good.
7:19
Yeah, it's unbelievably good.
7:21
So much content for me to catch up on.
7:22
Really.
7:24
Yeah.
7:24
I was allowed to do a lot of things till I was 18, then just playing catch up the rest of my life, it feels like.
7:31
Yeah.
7:31
I think I just figured out who Sugar Ray was like, two years ago.
7:34
Yeah.
7:35
It's also really funny.
7:36
Yeah.
7:37
I also think that the animation for Borderlands, it kind of gives, like, a comic book vibe to me.
7:42
The style is incredible.
7:44
I love the style.
7:45
Heavy shading, thick outlines.
7:48
Oh, it makes everything look so good.
7:49
Oh, yeah.
7:50
And just the color.
7:51
This is like.
7:53
There's very rare occasions, like absolute Martian Main Hunter.
7:56
When I'm reading a comic that I'm like, I actually want to know who the colorist is, because this is awesome.
8:01
That's kind of how I feel about this.
8:03
I'm like, actually, I want to know who specifically was in charge of the color scheme.
8:06
It's great.
8:08
Phenomenal.
8:09
It's so fun and vibrant the way that games are kind of afraid to be now it feels like, you know.
8:14
Yeah.
8:16
So before going on too far, I'm gonna go back to the other side.
8:21
I want to ask you to just kind of like get a breakdown.
8:23
Some of the characters we talked about.
8:24
So obviously we're talking about Lilith today.
8:26
I want to talk some about the Sirens, Roland, angel, the Crimson Raiders, Ava.
8:32
Pretty much it.
8:33
Yeah.
8:33
We have limited time.
8:35
If you give a breakdown, just who are some of these characters?
8:38
Okay, so the Sirens are.
8:41
There's, I think 13 total, but only six that we know of.
8:45
But they are.
8:46
They all happen to be women.
8:48
It's not necessarily, you know, like only women have these powers, but they pretty much just get to do magic.
8:57
Yeah, because why not?
8:58
Why not?
9:00
But because they were all women, people start calling them Sirens.
9:02
That's in universe.
9:04
That's not the official name, but it is the official name.
9:06
There's a playable Siren in every game.
9:10
Lilith is the playable siren in Borderlands 1.
9:13
So when I started, you know, in Borderlands 2, I saw Lilith.
9:17
I was like, oh, she's awesome.
9:19
Why am I not playing as Lilith?
9:21
And that's because Zero was in Borderlands 2 and he's way cooler.
9:25
But yeah, I got to, I got to play her when I went back to Borderlands 1, which is kind of a hard jump.
9:31
Like if you, if you play Elden Ring and then go back to the other Dark Souls games, you're like, oh, wow, I forgot it was like this.
9:39
You know, it's just harder to enjoy it the way you used to.
9:44
But Lilith is actually kind of the main protagonist, which is weird to say, but it really is.
9:52
Most of the story revolves around her.
9:55
She's in the most games she's in.
9:58
I don't think she's in four.
9:59
She's in the rest because we didn't touch on it earlier.
10:02
What.
10:02
How would you describe the storyline of Borderlands?
10:04
Like, what is it about?
10:07
Generally there's groups of people, they call themselves vault hunters.
10:13
They're searching for vaults which are, you know, vault ancient vaults, ideally filled with treasure blessed by an ancient civilization.
10:23
And spoiler warning, every time we've seen a vault get opened, it ends really, really badly.
10:31
Notably just big world destroying aliens in there.
10:34
Yeah.
10:35
So Sirens are actually major parts of opening a vault and that's why they're so relevant.
10:40
They can turn iridium, which I'm not like some great Borderlands Thomas Aquinas, you know, I don't.
10:49
Yeah, we're not experts.
10:51
We're not experts.
10:52
I'm not an expert, but I did.
10:53
Stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
11:49
So their power is fueled by iridium.
11:51
They can use their power to convert that into energy and that's how the walls get opened usually.
11:57
So that's how that works.
11:59
So most of the other Sirens in the story that we know look up to Lilith because she's so powerful and just kind of storied and that's why Borderlands 3 sucks, because they take her powers and she's dead.
12:13
Yeah, being dead's not that big a deal.
12:15
Yeah, I mean she's not like confirmed.
12:17
Dead, but you can come back from that.
12:19
She wasn't in four and she probably can.
12:21
If you can feed her.
12:22
Her body some iridium, she.
12:23
She probably can come back from that.
12:25
But that's kind of how she influences the Sirens.
12:30
Her influence is not really Siren esque.
12:35
She doesn't draw from them.
12:36
She kind of is the one.
12:39
The rest of them look up to her.
12:40
And honestly, I hear good things about the Porter Wins Force Iron, but I think they nailed it on Lilith.
12:47
I think she's probably the most fun one to play.
12:49
You know, they got it right the first try.
12:51
Yeah.
12:52
So makes sense to me.
12:54
Otherwise Roland, Roland is kind of, you know, they're not together, but they're together, you know, one of those things.
13:05
So she looks up to Roland, Roland looks up to her.
13:07
She'll do anything for him.
13:08
And honestly, the rest of the squad, absolute classic squad.
13:13
In the first game you can play as Lilith or you can play as Roland or Mordecai or Brick and they're all so fun.
13:22
I think probably the most consistent cast, like I think 0 in Borderlands 2 is the most fun character to play as in general.
13:31
But I think to me the other characters in Borderlands 2 just aren't as fun.
13:35
Except for maybe Salvatore.
13:37
All four of the first game characters are a lot of fun.
13:40
We're just saying a lot because it's more restrictive.
13:42
Yeah.
13:42
And is it one, the pre sequel and two are the only ones that are split screen three and four you have to do online.
13:47
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
13:48
Yeah.
13:49
Split Screen Co op is still just one of my favorite just forms of entertainment, just in general.
13:53
So it's cool.
13:54
Which sucks because like as you get older your eyes get worse and you need a bigger TV and.
14:00
Yeah, yeah, it's just unfortunate.
14:02
It's fine.
14:03
TJ, the pod almighty.
14:05
You just keep buying us bigger TVs.
14:08
Yeah, it won't be a problem.
14:10
Yeah, just, you know, it stinks a.
14:12
Little because podcasters are notorious for being so wealthy.
14:15
Mm.
14:16
Yeah.
14:17
See, the real problem is people keep designing their living rooms, and the couch is, like, 9, 10, 15ft away from the TV.
14:25
What are you doing?
14:25
I'm talking about you.
14:29
I don't get a say in these things.
14:31
Yeah, I know.
14:33
Yeah, I'm just the host.
14:34
Anyway, so Roland's kind of always there for her, and I can't really say father figure.
14:43
That would make it weird.
14:45
Well, I mean, wasn't that a thing the kids started doing again?
14:48
Instead of like a dad bod, they started saying, talking about father figure.
14:52
It can work.
14:53
Yeah.
14:53
Yeah, you're right.
14:54
You know, why not?
14:55
You're super, super, right?
14:57
Not weird at all.
14:59
Yeah.
14:59
Angel is.
15:02
She appears to you in, like, holographic visions throughout the game.
15:07
A Borderlands One, at least.
15:09
She is also a Siren, notably the only one that Lilith kind of does take guidance from.
15:18
But each Siren has their own special abilities.
15:20
Angels is really cool.
15:21
It's phase shifting, which allows her to do Technopathy.
15:26
Super sick.
15:29
But because of that, I know a lot of people who played the game but don't, like, remember, like, haven't played it a bunch.
15:34
Don't remember the ending.
15:36
You won't know Angel's a Siren because she used that ability to appear as an AI that would just kind of pop up in your.
15:43
I don't remember what they're called.
15:44
You know, your phone pretty much.
15:47
And guide you to what you need to do next.
15:50
And then the reveal that angel is a Siren and actually the daughter of the main antagonist of the game, Handsome Jack.
15:58
Really cool.
15:59
Really cool.
16:00
So I still love that.
16:01
That's just his name.
16:02
It's Handsome.
16:03
Handsome Jack.
16:04
Not Ugly Jack.
16:05
That's Handsome Jack.
16:06
That's Handsome Jack.
16:07
Very notably so.
16:08
If you've played the pre sequel, it's extremely important.
16:12
But yeah, Jack kind of just kidnaps her, plans to use her, open a vault, and she uses her powers to get around that and lead our team of Vault Hunters to save her.
16:22
Mm.
16:23
Yeah.
16:24
Yeah, Angels.
16:25
Angel's really cool, you know, rest in peace.
16:31
Who are the Crimson Raiders?
16:33
The Crimson Raiders are the group Roland leads the Crimson Raiders.
16:38
They're like the group of, you know, protagonist centric NPCs.
16:44
You're leading the Crimson Raiders.
16:45
They're fighting for you.
16:46
Your base is the Crimson Raiders base.
16:48
That type of thing.
16:49
They're the goons.
16:51
They're fighting.
16:52
Yeah, they're the good guys.
16:53
They're fighting against Handsome Jack and bandits and whatever else may bring pain to the populace.
17:00
They also are trying to open the ball too, because, you know, they want what's in there.
17:07
So that introduces some problems eventually, and it causes a lot of the friction between them and Handsome Jack and everything else.
17:15
But super fun group, super fun bases.
17:21
It gets pretty emotional.
17:23
The Crimson Raiders.
17:26
Doesn't Lilith take control of after Roland?
17:30
Yeah.
17:31
So Lilith, as Firehawk, starts to lead the Crimson Raiders.
17:35
And that's where, you know, they get a lot of their chutzpah from, is fighting for Lilith, who was fighting with and for Roland.
17:43
And honestly, really, really good story now that I'm thinking about it.
17:47
I was like, man, yeah, I just want to play Borderlands Funny again, actually.
17:50
Yeah.
17:50
As funny as Borderlands is, it's also, like, has really potent emotional moments in it.
17:55
There's a lot of sacrifice.
17:57
A lot of sacrifice.
17:58
Yeah, there's a lot of sacrifice, a lot of vengeance and.
18:02
Yeah, speaking of sacrifice, a really dividing character.
18:05
Ava.
18:06
This is Borderlands 3.
18:08
Very much, I would say, influenced by Lilith, but also, is it.
18:13
Maya is the siren that she's originally mentored by.
18:16
And then once May I dies, somehow she inherits the Siren powers.
18:22
Yeah.
18:23
Which is interesting.
18:24
Weird.
18:24
Yeah.
18:25
Yeah.
18:26
By the way.
18:26
Yeah.
18:27
Maya.
18:28
Yeah.
18:30
She blames Lilith for Maya's death and is bent on revenge.
18:36
Come near the end of Borderlands 3, Lilith kind of sacrifices herself and puts Ava in charge of the Crimson Raiders.
18:42
I think she does something for Ava at the very end.
18:45
She, like, gifts her something.
18:47
I think that's it.
18:48
Yeah.
18:48
But that character sucks.
18:52
I don't like Borderlands 3.
18:53
I really don't like this girl.
18:56
I'm not upset about the concept of inheriting the Siren powers because they're magic.
19:00
Dude, who cares?
19:03
You find out you're a Siren because at some point when you're growing up, tattoos just appear on your body.
19:10
Yeah.
19:11
And you're like, sure.
19:12
Oh, I'm a siren.
19:14
Cool.
19:16
Yeah.
19:16
So she does hand over the Crimson Raiders over to Ava.
19:19
So that's what happens.
19:20
But.
19:20
But I.
19:21
I don't know.
19:22
I actually, of course, I'm on the bad opinion side of this.
19:25
I.
19:26
It's not that I like her.
19:27
I just don't dislike her.
19:29
I.
19:29
I think to me, I feel similar to her.
19:33
How I feel about Star Lord and Marvel Cinematic Universe right now, where I'm like, that was a good character.
19:39
I'm still just really, really mad at how stupid he was in the last movie.
19:43
Like, last two movies I've seen him in.
19:45
You know, think that's what it is.
19:47
I'm like, I don't mind the character.
19:48
I'm just still mad about the character's decisions.
19:51
Yeah.
19:52
Yeah.
19:53
I.
19:55
Yeah.
19:56
And they kill Maya when she's trying to, you know, get Ava back.
20:01
Troy from Borderlands 3 kills Maya, too.
20:05
I just.
20:06
So many characters give up so much for Ava, and I just.
20:09
She's not that likable.
20:10
Yeah.
20:11
Yeah.
20:11
I think that's the problem, is too much sacrifice for okay.
20:14
You know, I was talking about that with dinner the other day is like, I don't mind going somewhere with okay food, but only if I'm paying okay or less than okay prices.
20:24
Yeah.
20:24
You know what I mean?
20:25
Like, if I'm paying, like, this is bad food prices and the food is okay, I'm fine going there all day.
20:30
Like, sure.
20:30
Why not?
20:32
If I'm paying, like, good food prices.
20:34
Okay.
20:35
Food's not.
20:35
No.
20:36
Not acceptable.
20:37
That's.
20:37
That's.
20:38
I think that's what she is.
20:40
Like, we had so much sacrifices, so much story revolve, and it's like an okay character.
20:44
Yeah.
20:45
Or if, like, the vibe's really good, then it's okay.
20:49
But in Borderlands 3, the vibe's not that good.
20:51
Yeah.
20:52
But I still want to play it again now, too.
20:53
I want to play all the Borderland games again now.
20:56
Yeah.
20:57
Yeah.
20:58
So we're talking about all these characters and specifically this series.
21:01
We're talking about the faces behind us.
21:03
You know, who did Lilith influence?
21:05
Who influenced Lilith?
21:07
You touched a lot on how Roland really influenced her, someone she looked up to.
21:11
And we mentioned, you know, she's the Firehawk.
21:13
She ends up being in charge of the Crimson Raiders.
21:16
What about Lilith?
21:17
Her leadership style?
21:18
Who she is really influences the Crimson Raiders or other characters later on, in your opinion.
21:24
And that's part of the thing that makes the whole Ava thing not so bad, is that that is how Lilith leads.
21:31
She's always there for her people, any of her people who needs her.
21:36
So of course she's gonna sacrifice whatever she has to to save Ava, because that's who she is.
21:43
She's also just super strong, theoretically, if you can give her enough iridium, limitless power.
21:53
So that's gotta be assuring, you know.
21:55
Oh, we found a vein of iridium for.
21:58
Pretty much untouchable for the next couple of weeks.
22:02
So I get it.
22:03
Yeah, I do get it.
22:04
It's a good moment for Lilith.
22:06
Yeah.
22:07
I Think to me, because, you know, Roland was in charge of the Crimson Raiders first and then Lilith.
22:13
What's interesting to me is even though she was definitely influenced by Roland, she wouldn't have cared about the Crimson Raiders otherwise.
22:22
Roland is like one of those characters who's.
22:24
We're doing stuff, by the rule, very, like, military structure, you know, whatever kind of stuff.
22:28
Like, that's how I remember his character being like, almost think like Picard or like Benjamin Siska, like, you know, Star Trek captain.
22:37
That's not Kirk.
22:40
Lilith, she was like a rebel.
22:42
She was like, do what I want, whatever.
22:45
Kind of like hothead.
22:47
And she falls into the role not in a.
22:50
Okay, well, now I'm suddenly structured in this.
22:52
More of like, she lends into the part of her that's passionate and caring about her people.
22:57
But it's always interesting when you see, like, the rebellious character become the leader of a group.
23:01
And I'm glad they didn't go, now she's gonna be just like Roland, just not in the character, you know?
23:06
Yeah.
23:07
And it's.
23:08
What, what's funny, to me, I think the most accurate comparison to a real world leader.
23:15
To me, I think the best possible comparison is actually George Washington.
23:21
Heck, yeah.
23:23
For Lilith.
23:23
I mean, if you think about George Washington at the time, absolute beast of a man.
23:29
He's like almost a foot taller than the average height at the time.
23:34
I just like how often you bring.
23:35
Things back to height.
23:37
I mean, it's relevant here, but it's still funny.
23:40
This giant of a man on the front lines, basically begging to die, and it just never happens because he believed that when it was time he would go.
23:50
He couldn't be shot and killed.
23:51
George Washington was insane.
23:53
But Lilith is kind of that same way.
23:54
She's going to be up there with you, leading from the front, how a leader should do.
23:59
Yeah, she wasn't managing.
24:01
She was not managing.
24:02
No, she was leading.
24:04
The ownership, honestly, really shines.
25:35
I think that's the thing.
25:36
I think Roland, the structure, all of that, it really makes me feel like a really smoothly running organization or military country.
25:47
How he led the Crimson Raiders, I'm like, yeah, Lilith almost takes like a pastoral role.
25:52
She's more, I care about my people, I'm there with my people.
25:56
She's more focused on the individuals, I feel like, than actual how the organization runs.
26:02
Not that she doesn't care about that.
26:03
It just seems like that's more her focus.
26:05
Yeah, yeah.
26:06
And she'll offload the other stuff.
26:09
A huge team of capable people.
26:11
Why am I doing that?
26:12
Yeah, I wouldn't do that.
26:14
Yeah.
26:14
Be like, why would I make a change order.
26:17
Yeah, I can count.
26:22
Anyway, so.
26:24
All right, so we talked some about Rolan.
26:25
We talked about the Crimson Raiders.
26:27
You mentioned angel earlier.
26:28
I want to revisit that real quick.
26:30
How does angel, who's mostly, like, not actually there, how does she influence Lilith?
26:36
So angel literally guides you through Borderlands 1, and through that, guides Lilith to, you know, her goals, which coincide with Angel's goals, coincidentally.
26:49
But after, you know, realizing that angel is like her and the living out her genuine worst fear, which is living in imprisonment and having her powers used for bad things, it just means a lot to her.
27:06
And she has great empathy for.
27:08
Sympathy for angel and that kind of.
27:11
I can't imagine how mad she actually is when she finds out.
27:17
And how much her hate for Handsome Jack increases when she finds out that not only is it his daughter, but his daughter is a Siren and also his prisoner.
27:31
But that is Ash.
27:33
Does.
27:33
She does literally influence Lilith through the entire game?
27:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:39
No, it's a.
27:40
It is interesting, especially because Lilith, again, does not become Angel.
27:45
She doesn't become Roland.
27:46
But you can tell how these characters influence her, and then you see how she becomes a leader in her own right, what she does for Ava and all that.
27:52
So it's really interesting for faces behind us because she's, like, smack dab in the middle, you know, where, like, you see who was behind her and then you see how she's influenced the next thing.
28:01
So one of the questions we're asking for every episode in this, that I'm kind of curious with this one.
28:05
What will the story be without Lilith?
28:08
You know, I feel like it's a hard one because she's like a main character, but.
28:13
Yeah, well, I think the Vault Hunters would just never win.
28:17
Yeah.
28:17
Honestly, I'm like.
28:18
I feel like.
28:19
Because Roland dies that first game still, I think.
28:21
Yeah.
28:22
See, well, the thing is, there's no way to open the vault.
28:24
No.
28:25
No, he doesn't.
28:26
You don't think.
28:26
Because Angel.
28:27
Angel is actually the one that turns off New Haven shields.
28:31
So you don't think Roland would die?
28:33
I think he'd probably die anyway, but not the same way.
28:36
Okay.
28:37
Yeah, I mean, I just.
28:38
I don't know.
28:39
I don't see them making it out of that first game alive or any of the other stories to happen.
28:43
But even if they did, the Crimson Raiders without Lilith, I just don't think they.
28:48
They keep trying to open vaults and they keep not opening vaults.
28:51
Like, I feel like that's all that would happen.
28:53
Yeah.
28:53
Lilith is the key.
28:54
You know, like, you need the vault key still, but you still have to find the vault key.
28:57
But you need a siren.
28:59
Yeah.
28:59
Yeah.
29:00
And I just don't think anybody else.
29:01
Especially because the other sirens don't seem to have a lot of leadership skill, so they would basically just be trying to use them to open the vaults, and it would just keep ending poorly.
29:09
It would just be a terrible, not very fun cycle, actually.
29:13
Borderlands 2 would suck.
29:15
That's what would happen.
29:17
Yeah.
29:17
No, Borderlands 2 would be awesome because it still exists.
29:22
Yeah, yeah.
29:23
Yeah.
29:24
I guess.
29:24
But no, the franchise really just wouldn't have made it anywhere.
29:28
You just wanted it without her.
29:29
Yeah.
29:30
So the other one we like to ask every episode is, would you rather be the leader of the followers?
29:35
So in this case, would you rather be the leader of the Crimson Raiders or would you rather be one of the Crimson Raiders under Lilith's leadership?
29:43
I don't know.
29:43
I like.
29:44
I like an underling position where there's, you know, room for growth.
29:48
I wouldn't mind.
29:49
I definitely wouldn't mind working for Lilith.
29:52
You know, I say I'd do anything for.
29:54
I'd do anything for most people.
29:57
That's accurate.
29:58
I mean.
29:59
Yeah.
29:59
So, you know, I would just.
30:03
It'd be a lot of fun.
30:03
I'd be a Crimson Raider.
30:05
I think leading the Crimson Raiders would kind of suck.
30:07
Yeah.
30:08
I think that's my problem is I'm like.
30:10
With these, I'm always like, 50.
30:12
50 usually.
30:13
But this one, I'm really not.
30:14
Cuz, like, being a Crimson Raider sounds like I'm okay.
30:20
Being the leader of, like, an organization like that, it's just so much logistics or you have to care so much.
30:27
Yeah, I don't really want to do either of those things.
30:30
Like, especially when the goal has to do with, like, the vaults and the looting and all that.
30:34
Like, I don't have a passion for those things.
30:37
Like, if for some reason the Crimson Raiders were like a kitchen.
30:39
Sure.
30:40
Yeah.
30:40
I'll become the leader of the Crimson Raid.
30:42
Chef.
30:43
Yeah.
30:44
Yeah.
30:45
But like, a military organization, I just.
30:47
I don't have the passion for it.
30:48
I'd rather just.
30:49
Lilith, tell me what to do.
30:50
I'm chill.
30:51
We can.
30:51
We can figure it out.
30:52
I mean, like, don't get me wrong, I could do it.
30:54
I just wouldn't want to.
30:55
It'd be a real pain.
30:56
I keep trying to think of other things for us to do, like, why are we open to these vaults?
30:59
This seems dumb.
31:00
Let's do something Else, guys, Opium.
31:02
We're gonna open our own theme park.
31:04
Yeah, we got the tech.
31:05
You know what?
31:05
We're just gonna be iridium miners.
31:08
Yeah, yeah.
31:09
Why are we doing.
31:10
It's gonna be a mining town.
31:12
Then you guys, you can be the guards.
31:17
Exactly.
31:18
Oh, man.
31:20
So I do want to think a little bit further because we talked about the sirens and how.
31:23
Because they're mostly girls I just called sirens.
31:26
There's a lot of stigma around the sirens too, from what I recall.
31:31
I want to know, like, from your perspective, not just in the game, but in general.
31:35
How does a name or a title influence how we view someone or whether we allow ourselves to be mentored by them or not?
31:41
Especially, like Lilith, there's a lot of, you know, connotations with that name.
31:46
She's actually a really good guy character.
31:49
Yeah, but, like, you have that name, you have.
31:51
Oh, she's a siren.
31:53
And there is a lot of stigma around that.
31:55
I wonder how does that influence, you know, who she is and then in real life, how does that influence who we are or who we allow ourselves to be led by?
32:02
Yeah, I think you mean a lot.
32:04
Also, Lilith led around by Angel.
32:07
Pretty funny.
32:07
Yeah, pretty funny.
32:09
Yeah.
32:10
But a title to me doesn't mean much.
32:14
But if you allow a title to stick, then it, you know, it can affect you if you let it.
32:20
It's kind of how I feel about most things.
32:23
If someone.
32:24
There have been quite a few times for someone come up here and be like, oh, so and so said this.
32:29
I was like, okay, they're grown.
32:32
They can say what they want.
32:33
Yeah, I don't care.
32:35
I'm gonna keep doing what I do regardless.
32:39
So doesn't really matter to me.
32:40
That's different from taking feedback for the record.
32:44
All different thing.
32:46
But it can be a lot, especially when it's widespread, you know, like, oh, those sirens, the witches, which, to be fair, I get it, that's scary.
33:00
To be fair to it, that's scary.
33:04
Like we're in, like a super sci fi, high tech world.
33:08
Everything else is, you know, technology or, like low fantasy creatures.
33:12
And these.
33:13
These girls do magic.
33:14
Yeah, she's like actual kind of actual magic.
33:19
Why?
33:20
Horrifying.
33:22
So I understand the negative connotation behind their names.
33:25
Yeah.
33:26
They do also have a pretty bad track record of their friends staying alive.
33:33
Yeah.
33:34
Yeah.
33:34
That's not great.
33:35
Pretty much.
33:35
I do think it kind of depends on.
33:37
On the circumstance.
33:38
If we're, like, looting a town together, I don't really care about your titles that much.
33:44
If we're doing, like, A Bible study.
33:46
And then you're like, by the way, I'm super.
33:50
Mind you, we do a church unity thing.
33:53
Other Christians are Christians, too.
33:55
I'm open to a lot of that stuff.
33:56
But if we're doing a Bible study together, and you're like, by the way, I'm Mormon, and I'm going to be reading out of the Book of Mormon for this Bible study, and I'm like, okay, listen, I can see
34:04
you as a fellow Christian, but it's going to be really hard for me to do a Bible study that.
34:07
But, like, I'm always going to be suspicious of what that person's saying, because I know I don't agree with that group, you know, but then I think that's different.
34:14
Some people, race is a big thing, and I'm like, that's not okay.
34:19
And even, like, I know people who grew up in a church where women aren't allowed to preach, they've become more open to it, but they're still, like, have a hard time with the woman as a pastor, and they're
34:29
trying to be accepted, but they grew up in a certain way, and it just makes it harder for them.
34:32
And I'm like, yeah, conditioning is definitely a thing, and it's not your fault.
34:38
So, you know, I think there are a lot of elements to it.
34:40
And I think, like, as someone who grew up Pentecostal, people know I grew up Pentecostal talking to certain other people in, you know, Christian circles, especially, you know, your academic circles, there's some assumptions get thrown out sometime, and
34:53
usually I lean into them because I think it's funny.
34:55
I definitely handle snakes and drink poison all the time.
34:59
I do like to be great.
35:00
Oh, yeah, we're so much church.
35:01
Yeah.
35:03
My church is so far from,.
35:07
Like, not.
35:07
Not that at all.
35:08
But, you know, so.
35:09
Yeah.
35:10
And the amount of times because, you know, we are going to Church Unity podcast that people are like, oh, well, Catholics don't worship Jesus.
35:15
And I'm like, that's not quite right.
35:17
But, like, you know, a lot does get put on titles, and it does sometimes make things difficult.
35:23
But then again, definitely think it depends on what kind of thing we're doing.
35:26
Yeah, we live in Democrat, Republicans, a big thing.
35:31
But if you're like, hey, we're going to go loot this thing over here, or we're going to go fight this monster, I don't care what church or political party or anything you're in.
35:41
Depends on the circumstance.
35:42
Yeah.
35:43
Also, hilarious concept for just showing up to a Bible study.
35:48
All right, guys.
35:48
We're reading through Daniel today and you open your Book of Mormon and you're like, I'm actually going to read 4th Nephi.
35:55
I think that's great.
35:57
That's like the best bait at switch.
35:59
I don't think you need to be here.
36:01
Have you misunderstood what a Bible study is.
36:06
Anyway?
36:07
But they would solve that problem and be like, oh, you guys don't have one.
36:09
Here's.
36:10
I brought seven.
36:11
Yeah, they're prepared.
36:13
And you know, we've had friends who are from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or whatever, and they're cool again.
36:20
Still just don't agree on certain things.
36:21
I will read the Book of Mormon because I'm curious.
36:25
I don't believe the Book of Mormon.
36:27
I'll read any biblical text.
36:29
Yeah, why not?
36:30
I just been kicked out of the Bible.
36:31
Exiles from the church.
36:33
Give it to me.
36:33
Give it to me.
36:34
What denomination reads just this?
36:37
I want.
36:40
So we mentioned Loveless.
36:42
Sacrifices, Roland.
36:43
Sacrifices.
36:44
There are a lot of sacrifice in this game, usually by the leadership.
36:47
In your opinion, how important is sacrifice to leadership?
36:52
It depends.
36:53
You have to be willing.
36:55
When need arises, you have to be willing.
36:57
But not just sacrifice for sacrifice sake.
36:59
No, I hate that.
37:01
I hate.
37:03
Yeah.
37:03
People who just try to be the victim.
37:06
Yeah, I hate that.
37:08
Play a lot of Dungeons and Dragons.
37:10
I can't stand it when someone's like, let my character do it.
37:14
I'll die for it.
37:16
Not necessary, man.
37:17
That used to be what I did.
37:19
No one has to die here.
37:20
Not for D and D.
37:21
Other tabletop that we played, that used to be my go to.
37:24
And I'm like, you know, why am I doing this?
37:26
Like, it's not noble.
37:27
It's.
37:27
It's stupid.
37:28
You're stupid.
37:29
Yeah.
37:30
Thank you.
37:31
I.
37:32
Yeah, I mean, I agree.
37:33
I think it's important when the need arises that the leader is the one that steps up and makes the sacrifice.
37:39
Yeah.
37:40
You know, obviously I'm gonna go.
37:41
Tony Stark, Captain America, both have a point.
37:45
I like Captain America a lot more.
37:46
But that one argument they have of like where caps like you would never lay on the wire for the other man and Tony's like, yeah, just cut it, dude.
37:54
They both have a point.
37:55
You need to be willing to make the sacrifice as the leader, but also if you just cut the wire.
38:00
Just cut the wire.
38:01
Yeah.
38:02
Sacrifice isn't like the first answer, you know.
38:06
Yeah, let's wear options.
38:09
And then if someone needs to lay on that wire, I'll do it.
38:12
Also, though, real funny.
38:14
Then this is relevant.
38:15
I love when this is relevant.
38:18
Another episode on this podcast we did the Geeks on a Roll and Christian and Liz were playing through a scenario that I had panned out.
38:27
It was a Bible study.
38:28
I'm trying to remember the name of it.
38:29
Heaven Escape Room.
38:30
So you guys can go back and look up Geeks on a Roll.
38:32
Heaven Escape Room.
38:32
They had Steve Rogers as one of their characters and it was a roll.
38:36
There's a six sided die that I rolled and whichever role, one of the characters were just going to go to hell for a bit.
38:42
It was just part of the story.
38:43
And it just so happened that when Steve Rogers read, they did the role and he was the one that fell.
38:47
So they all thought that.
38:48
That whoever read was just going to disappear.
38:50
It's not what was happening at all.
38:52
Just really terrible coincidence.
38:55
But every single time they get back and Steve Rogers is there, he's like, oh, I'm going to sacrifice.
38:59
Let me read.
39:00
That's not.
39:01
It's not even what's happening.
39:04
It's pretty funny though.
39:05
Yeah.
39:06
Because that is, you know, that is what Steve Rogers would do.
39:09
But it's still like not necessary, man.
39:11
Yeah.
39:12
Yeah.
39:13
So that.
39:14
Any other thoughts about Lilith?
39:16
The faces behind us, the themes of Borderlands, why everyone should play Borderlands 2?
39:23
Yeah, I think Maya's cool and all, but if you could play as Lilith in Borderlands 2, Borderlands 2 might be the perfect video game.
39:31
Lilith is cool.
39:33
I really want to go play Borderlands again.
39:35
Actually.
39:35
I think I have the whole franchise except for four on my Steam deck because they sold it as like a pack at some point.
39:41
On sale near Christmas time.
39:42
Yeah.
39:42
I'm sitting here wondering if I also bought that.
39:46
I have to go check.
39:49
That might be what I'm geeking out on next.
39:52
Next time we'll see.
39:54
You'll know if I have it or not.
39:55
Yeah.
39:56
All right then.
39:57
All that said, I think it's time to start wrapping this one up.
40:02
Naturally, we are gonna do a bonus question at the end when I ask what other video game would it be cool to see Lilith in?
40:10
We just take her and drop her in another game.
40:12
Where would we like to see her?
40:13
So we'll talk about that after this episode.
40:15
If you guys want to become official members, check that out.
40:17
You can hear our thoughts on that.
40:19
For now though, if you had to give a recommendation, tj so that people could go read, play, watch, etc, going.
40:26
With, well, if you have two and a half hours to spare and you like murder mysteries and you haven't seen Wake Up Dead Man, a knives out story.
40:37
It's on Netflix.
40:39
I think it is easily the best one.
40:41
And I think if you're listening to this show, you'll probably feel the same way it is.
40:46
Yeah, it's a, you know, it's a murder mystery and it becomes so profound and beautiful through the resolution of the story because it revolves around two priests.
40:58
But man, it's so good.
41:01
It's like it is genuinely maybe a religious experience for some people.
41:04
Maybe for me, like it is, it is truly shocking.
41:09
I mean, the themes I've heard that's in it would make sense.
41:12
It's so good.
41:13
Yeah.
41:14
Also phenomenal mystery.
41:16
Yeah.
41:17
Like, like so well written.
41:19
Man, I do want to watch that really bad.
41:22
So other than Borderlands, because obviously I do think everybody should play Borderlands.
41:27
Strange Tales, Marvel Comics 2025 run with Jeremy Whitley.
41:32
I've been reading through them because of other things I've been kicking out on lately.
41:35
And it's actually pretty, you know, not a very long series, but it's pretty good.
41:39
So I recommend checking that out, especially if you're a big reader.
41:43
Also written viewer show, wherever you get your podcast.
41:45
It really helps the algorithms think that we're important.
41:47
So other people check out the show and we really appreciate that.
41:50
We also appreciate our financial supporters like James Barrett.
41:53
James, you're amazing.
41:55
Thank you so much for your monthly contributes, your membership, all that and just for being a part of what we're doing here.
42:01
If you guys want your own shout out, you can be like James.
42:03
Become an official member on their website using the link that's in the show's description.
42:07
Same link.
42:08
You can find extra content.
42:09
You can leave a one time financial gift without being a member.
42:11
You can buy some merch like our faces behind us.
42:14
T shirt looks good in purple.
42:15
Check it out.
42:16
I think it's worth it.
42:17
Speaking of the faces behind us, if you want to see more episodes like this that are part of our annual theme, there's a playlist of all these episodes, another link in the show description.
42:26
A lot of links down there.
42:27
Check them out.
42:28
Keep geeking out with us.
42:29
We appreciate your time and we enjoy having you as part of what we're doing.
42:34
Yeah.
42:35
And with that, of course, we also need to do one extremely important thing for us, which is to remember that we are all a chosen people.
42:43
A geekdom of priests.
42:45
Till next time.