Latest / Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney / What it’s really like being a luxury wedding planner. With Lee Clubb-Sansom

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What it’s really like being a luxury wedding planner. With Lee Clubb-Sansom · Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney

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Don't rush.
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You don't know everything and you'll never know everything.
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So take time to learn, take time to think about what you're doing and don't run at everything head on.
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And I've learned that a number of times as I was younger.
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I'm Becca Pountney, wedding business marketing expert, strategist, speaker and author.
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Over the last decade, I've combined my love of marketing with my knowledge of the wedding industry to help thousands of wedding pros and venues just like you learn new skills, strategize, get re energized and grow their businesses.
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Because after all, that's how you stay top of your game.
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Whether you're brand new into this industry or been here forever, I want to help.
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So grab a cup of tea or a cocktail, sit back and enjoy a brand new episode of my award winning podcast, Wedding Pros who Are Ready to Grow.
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Let's get going with today's episode.
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Today I'm chatting with Lee Club Sansom, CEO of Sarah Hayward.
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Exceptional celebrations.
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The Sarah Hayward team are widely regarded as one of the world's top international luxury wedding and party planning consultants.
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Lee's job, though, is more behind the scenes.
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He's looking after the company's strategy, operations and growth.
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I've had the pleasure of working alongside Lee this year as we're both current advisory board members of the UK Wedding Association.
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Lee also recently got married himself, so I'm sure he's also learned some lessons along the way.
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I know it's going to be a great episode.
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Leigh, welcome to the podcast.
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Hello.
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Thank you for having me.
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Absolute pleasure.
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I cannot start this episode without saying congratulations on your recent wedding and the name change.
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It's very exciting.
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But I need to know, how does the CEO of one of the biggest planning brands in the world plan their own wedding?
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That is pressure, right?
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Absolutely.
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I would say with great difficulty.
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It feels very different doing your own wedding to everybody else's.
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And one of the hardest things about the whole thing was trying not to feel like I was at work.
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And Jo, my husband very much, is a bit of control freak.
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So it was very interesting doing it together, but I don't think I would have asked anybody else to do it because I think I'm a bit of a perfectionist.
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So it was interesting, but lots of fun.
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Actually, really enjoyed it.
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And I took the approach of not telling any of the providers that we hired that I what I did because I wanted it to feel quite natural and personal until about five days before.
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And then the tone sort of Changed a little bit.
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No, we had a lot of fun.
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It was good fun.
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So, yeah, we're 50 days off now for when we got married.
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It feels like a lifetime ago.
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We've still got the wedding blues, but it was lovely.
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Oh, it sounds so exciting.
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And I love that.
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I love that you didn't tell them, but then you, five days before you did tell them and that probably was the biggest stress that they could have possibly had to know.
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All of a sudden, right before who was actually there.
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It was sort of an act, it was sort of an accident as well, telling them.
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Because I had a file from the stationer that we used.
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Wonderful lady called Domenico from Cattalia did our stationary.
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It was beautiful.
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And I needed to send the logo for the projection onto the building, but I had the file in my work email, so I just forwarded it and that's sort of how it ended up happening.
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I love it.
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I love it.
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Well, let's talk then about your career because you've actually had a bit of a different journey to where you are today.
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You haven't always worked in weddings, so I'd love to just go back, tell me what you did, what you did in the past and what ended up getting you to where you are now.
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Yeah, I've had a really colorful career, actually.
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It's been a lot of fun.
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I actually have a retail background and I started in retail when I was 15 years old and people from back in the day won't remember this, but I started working on a Saturday and Sunday in a shoe shop
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called Revelle, which used to be part of Clark's.
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It doesn't exist anymore and I absolutely loved it.
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I absolutely loved it.
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And I had an amazing manager called Beck, actually, and she came to me after three weeks and said, I don't want to work Sundays anymore.
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So here's some keys to the shop.
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And that was very quick in start of my management career at 15 years old and I sort of just winged it, but loved it and had a great time.
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And I ended up working across quite a few premium retail businesses as I grew up in management, management roles quite early through Ted Baker, Goolsense and later on Greece.
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But I ran my first store when I was 18, which was.
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I loved, absolutely loved.
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It was a little regional local store near where I grew up in Essex, and then I very quickly moved to London when I was in my early 20s, 21, 22, and moved to All Saints and then just started
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a management role straight away.
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And the great thing about my career has always Been that I've been put into problem situations which has meant that I've had these amazing opportunities to learn how to deal with really challenging people and really challenging problems.
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And it has actually been quite career defining those opportunities.
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And I thank all the leaders that I've had in the past for giving me them because a young, fiery, 20 something moving to London.
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You know, I had a bit of an ego when I was younger and I really was work committed.
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So being put in those situations was really humbling in some places.
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And really there were so many learners, so many amazing learns.
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And then as I, as I developed I took roles at Selfridges and then my final role in retail was in Harrods and I was the general manager of Shoeheaven and the other shoe divisions there.
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I ran kids, men's and women's, which was incredible.
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The opportunities in Harrods are fantastic and again the learning and training opportunities are incredible.
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I then was approached, must be seven years ago now.
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I was approached by a recruiter that I never heard of on LinkedIn and she was talking about flower business and they were looking for somebody out of industry that had really good, large, big box operational background, understood the
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people part of running a business, understood the legal and compliance, the help of safety and all those things.
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It turned out to be McQueen's flowers.
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My mum by trade is a florist, was a florist before she replied to look after my dear old man.
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And so I thought, well, this is interesting, it's a bit of a change and it's creative industry and I really enjoy it.
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And I moved over to McQueen's which was absolutely incredible.
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We had some amazing experiences there.
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Very difficult navigating it through Covid as most businesses were in our industry.
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We had just over 100 florists at the time I started and we managed to keep nearly all of them through Covid, which was fantastic with a great investor.
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And I looked after the.
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I was, my last role there was chief operating officer and in that role I looked after here and the North American arm of business.
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So New York and la and I had some amazingly surreal moments during COVID where I was getting on long haul flights with six other people to travel across the world to make sure the business continued.
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And it was really, really interesting and really fascinating, actually wonderful.
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Business is quite different now.
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I think it's more focused as a flower school now.
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I met Sarah while I was there and we developed a relationship which was lovely.
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And she had asked me a few times about finding somebody to become a managing Director.
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She had some plans to how the business would develop into the future.
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And at some point I think we was in a way in Switzerland and I sort of said, you know what, why don't I just do this?
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You know, it's.
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We have a great relationship and it sounds really exciting.
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And I sort of, you know, had a conversation with her about it and it had two or three more conversations when we got home.
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And organically, we decided that the transition was right for me, right for her.
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So I've been with Sarah now four years.
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It was four years last week.
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And we've had an incredible journey actually over the last four years.
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The business is completely different now in many ways to what it was four years ago.
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We have taken a new office in soho and we've expanded the team and taken on people from different parts of the subcategories of the industry.
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And we have an incredible team in Laura, Amy, Jamie, Mila, Eloise, they're all fantastic.
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And we have recently, I think, you know, this has become an employee owned business.
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So we are one of the first in the industry.
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Wise Productions actually gave us the idea, but we were the first wedding planning agency to actually take a leap into this direction.
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So we did that in February.
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So we're six months in now of being employee owned.
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Sarah is still part of the business and she sort of goes out and sings our song and, you know, supports us in different ways now.
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But ultimately we've developed a structure that means the business has a legacy for the future.
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And it's super exciting, a journey ahead of us.
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And I'm sure there'll be some learns along the way, but that's sort of a nutshell version of my background.
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No, not at all.
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I find it incredibly interesting to hear about people's background because you sort of see this thread start to weave through people's stories.
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So even just the fact that you're a Harrod, so you're getting that exposure to the luxury clientele and understanding the customer service, then getting approached on LinkedIn just out of the blue and taking the jump into the wedding
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industry, but then your next step actually being based on relationships.
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So there's so many different elements to what you've done, and I love it.
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And I think it's interesting, particularly when you made that move to McQueen's, that they were specifically looking for someone outside of industry to come in and bring that different perspective, which is quite forward thinking, really.
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Yeah, it was, and it was super interesting because that business had just been bought out by a larger capital investment firm at that time.
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And Richard, the wonderful Richard Eagleton, who many people that will listen to your podcast will know who is now Claridge's Flowers.
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He doesn't come from the industry either.
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He comes from more furniture background or homeware background.
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And ultimately I think he saw the opportunity for a business of that size to integrate other industry knowledge, if you will, and professionals, because some of the gaps in our industry are so large and actually, particularly retailers and
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people that work in logistics world and, you know, areas that are relatable in a lot of ways have a lot of the knowledge and experience in them, in the people that sometimes are missing in our industry.
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And that knowledge, I think is fantastic.
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And he saw that in the role that he created that I then subsequently took.
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And so, yeah, it is interesting, but there are so many similarities, particularly around service and experience and the client relationship management element, stuff like that.
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And actually sometimes bringing that fresh perspective helps you think bigger, helps you think differently, and stops you just thinking, well, this is how we do it in the wedding industry, actually, we can do it different ways.
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It doesn't matter.
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Now, obviously people listening are going to know Sarah Hayward.
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The name is a name that lots of people know.
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But they might be thinking, well, who's Lee then and how does he fit into this?
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Because I think, you know, there's this fear when people own a business, even at the beginning when they call it their name, that it will only ever be that individual.
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You know, people say that to me all the time because everything I do is under my name.
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But actually, you've come into this business and it is no longer just about Sarah.
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You're doing a huge amount of work behind the scenes.
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So how does it work?
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Where do you sit and how do you kind of divide that creativity in the name of Sarah compared to what you're actually doing day to day?
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It's a really interesting question, and you're absolutely right.
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You know, a lot of people in the business come into the business and, you know, there's a, there's a culture of nameshake, namesake, brand leadership, right?
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So, you know, there's a front man in a business.
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That person is the person that's got the client, and it can sometimes bottleneck, so it sort of stops a lot of brands from being able to expand and look at other ways of running their opportunities.
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And also it, you know, it, it stifles them a little bit in terms of what the future looks like for them, because they have to.
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So they have to be so committed to running the business all the time.
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So joining Sarah was really interesting because we spent a lot of time looking at what the future could look like for a brand that has a namesake name.
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And, you know, Sarah will always be part of our business and it's really important for the future of the business that she is.
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But in terms of the business actually operating and functioning, it was really important to establish how the brand can cope without the namesake person.
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And that is really about creating structure and creating control and also finding the right people that you can trust and to run the brand in the, in the way that it needs to, to ensure that it still maintains
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the same standards that Sarah has developed over the last 20, 25 years and ensure that the business still holds the same weight with the client, if that makes sense.
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So, you know, Sarah's done an incredible job over the years of really creating a culture of understanding what the luxury client is in our industry and being a leader in that.
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So finding people that can work within the business to establish that in their own roles and was really, really important for us.
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And I think one of the things we did at the beginning was, okay, what are you doing, Sarah, as a person in the business and what are you covering?
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And you know, to this day, I still say to her, I don't know how you to do this on your own.
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I really don't.
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You know, it's, it's a, it's a monster of a business in a lot of ways.
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The client relationship management is at the highest level in the industry, you know, and it's so important and it requires a lot of time from the people.
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But then you have all of these cogs that are turning in the background that need looking after, they need oiling, they need working on.
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Someone needs to understand the financial, someone needs to understand the legal, someone needs to understand all of these things that people don't start a business to sign up to do.
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Right.
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So we spent quite a lot of time initially with me just taking all of those things away from the role that she held in the business, which was the front leadership role.
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Right.
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And we did some tweaking, we did some working and you know, figuring out how we can manage the business efficient in the operation.
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And that probably took a year and a half to get it right.
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I made sure that we were comfortable, we're doing, maintaining that is sort of in the role that I now play.
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Right.
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So the way the business operates is we have Laura at our director of events now and she very much is running the day to day of the Live event.
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The job that I allow the business is to make sure that all of the noise is taken away from the team to ensure that they can do a good job of the client relationship and build that rapport with
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the client and make sure the experience of the client is second to none.
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That ultimately is the key to making sure that we succeed.
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So the team of four event people, it effectively is what it is right now.
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Look after the client and ensure that their experience with their event is executed to the highest of standard, the same standard the business has always had.
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Myself and Eloise look after the operational elements of the business, so I look after them at the level you would look at operating aids, business in totality.
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And Eloise works really hard to make sure the function and execution of the day to day operations.
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So, you know, looking at things like the cleaners turned up to the office, looking at, like making sure that the fire extinguishers have been checked annually and the risk assessments are done for the events and you know, have
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we got silly things, have we got enough bin bags?
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You know, all of those things that keep a business ticking, she looks after all of those, you know, have we got the right IT equipment doesn't need upgrading, does it need updating?
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And then I can then look at the business in terms of planning for the future, looking at, you know, the cash modeling for the business, where are we looking at new opportunities, how do we develop the brand's name,
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all of those things that you have to think about running a business we now have the time to do.
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Sorry, that's quite the window.
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No, I think, I think it's really interesting and I think it's fascinating for people because although there'll be a lot of people listening that are in a lot smaller businesses right now, actually like you said, they don't have
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to be the bottleneck.
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There is opportunities in the future for them to expand and I think it's helpful to hear how that works and how you're sitting alongside, especially under that namesake brand.
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The other thing you said earlier and you kind of mentioned it in passing, but I think we need to spend a moment talking about it is the involvement you had with becoming employee owned.
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And I think it's an incredible achieve achievement, especially to be the first wedding planning company in the UK to do that.
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But people may be listening, thinking, I don't understand what that actually means.
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So can you just give us a like basic definition of what that looks like, how it works and what it means for the other employees?
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Absolutely.
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So in a nutshell employee ownership was first really publicly done well by John Lewis partnerships.
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So the John Lewis Rachel's partnerships is exactly the same formula that we have executed.
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Ultimately, it means that everybody in the team gets a stake in the business and Sarah has an opportunity to redefine the shares and where they sit.
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And ultimately the team then have an opportunity to run the business almost like a committee.
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Right.
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So we do everything together, we make decisions together about the future and everything else.
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So in a nutshell, a trust is established to support and execute the business that we run alongside the company and it owns the company in the majority shareholder format.
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And the team then get the benefit of what that looks like as a business owner.
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And it's a really great way of retaining talent.
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It's a really great way of allowing the team to have a stake in the decisions that we make as a business for the future.
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And it's a really great strategy for business founders and leaders to still play a part in the future of the brand they created without necessarily holding onto the responsibility of running it on a day to day basis.
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So we explored other things and what we would look like, the future would look like the brand.
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And you know how Sarah would sort of slow down a little bit as she actually wanted to.
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And this was definitely the best way because it really meant that the team could take the reins of the future of the brand.
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And we've established a format that means that if the team decides to move on at a later date or whichever, the business still functions in the same way, the roles just are replaced.
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Really hoping that because they're fabulous and they work really hard.
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And I just, I think it's a really great opportunity in our industry because there's so many businesses that are smaller.
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There's some rules and regulations that you have to follow.
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One of them is that you have to be a minimum required people.
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So I think if anyone would consider looking at an opportunity like this for the future and the way they develop their brand, create legacy and plan a part or full exit for a founder, you need to look at
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how you build your team out and that's a really important part.
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So it took us two and a half years to do the work and get to the right place.
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Stress test, stress test the business in certain places, ensure the right people are in place.
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But ultimately I'm a huge fan of employee ownership.
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I would really wave the flag for it in our industry because I think it's a really important, it's a really, it's a really clever way.
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Sorry, of Developing legacy for your brand.
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Yeah.
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And also it's a really great way, as you said, to retain staff and keep people interested.
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Because the amount of conversations I have with business owners, owners who've employed team members or have people in their venue working for them, and they'll say to me, yeah, but it's not their business, so they don't care.
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Or, you know, it's not their business, so they don't put in the same effort that I put in because it's my business.
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And actually this is kind of a way to make them want to put that effort in because it becomes a team effort.
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It becomes they, they are part of the business now.
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It's not just this, my business and you work for me.
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Suddenly the stakes are higher.
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Yeah.
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And I think it looks different depending on what business you are.
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So what, what sort of subcategory of product, if you will, you operate within and how many people you've.
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You know, Wise Productions are an employer in business and they operate in very different ways the way we operate because they're much larger.
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I have a great relationship with George, the managing director there.
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We share ways of working together to help each other sort of move forward and develop the employee ownership program within our businesses.
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And it's a super helpful way of learning for me, particularly as we go on this journey, because he's three and a half years in, so he's a bit.
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They're a bit ahead of me.
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Us.
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Sorry, a bit ahead of us.
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And, you know, it's just a really great program to allow people to think about a way of ensuring their business doesn't drastically change or the message that they've created as a founder for 20 years as an example, is
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decimated.
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Or if that person steps away from the business, it stops.
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Which is, you know, in our industry, a real thing.
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Because so many people are founder led only or might be too small to, in terms of headcount and people to think about what the future could look like, who is their successor, or what does succession in the business
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look like generally?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I think, I think it's fascinating.
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Now, I know my audience incredibly well and I know there's gonna be a lot of people listening who are thinking, well, that's great for you, Lee and Sarah.
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You've got this huge team, you're this huge brand, and we're just one planner sat at home.
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So I want to give those people some help and advice now because I'm sure you've seen planners from all different levels, people starting out, people at the right luxury end.
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And I'm sure also seen planners make a lot of mistakes.
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And one of the things I like to do on this podcast is for us to share some of the mistakes we've seen people make so that other planners don't make them.
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So is there anything that you can think of when you think of planners starting out, or maybe they've been in the industry a while and the mistakes they're making and things they need to avoid doing?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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It's really interesting.
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It's a really interesting topic to discuss, I think, because there is such a large spectrum of planners or event producers in our industry now, across the UK particularly, and it's really sort of exploded over the last few years.
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I feel, you know, being with Sarah for four years and being at McQueen's beforehand, I could, you know, name probably 10 planners since I was at McQueen's that have suddenly appeared over the last four years.
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And I can see why everyone wants to join the industry, but I think there is this really unusual expectation that it's quite glamorous.
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And I think that people enter the industry thinking, this is great.
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I'm going to travel the world, I'm going to see all these wonderful places.
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And we do that.
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Of course we do that, and we lucky.
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And I'm very humbled by that every day.
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But it's still a grubby job.
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And, you know, there is a lot of hard work to make sure it works.
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And I think that sometimes when planners start out, they think that they are going to come into this and they're going to be in charge at the top of this thing.
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And actually, I think the approach for new planners or planners that work well, all planners, actually, you know, I always.
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I always say, this isn't our world.
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We just are very lucky to work.
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And I think that you have to remain humble because you can't do this job without all of the event partners that work in our industry and the collaborative teams that you have to put together in order to execute
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the job.
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And I think that sometimes planners work in a way where they think they sit at the top of the pile when ultimately they need to sit at the bottom of the pile and ensure that everyone else is looked
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after, everyone is having a great time on the event, everyone feels really empowered and passionate about the projects that you're working on and just really excited by it.
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And I think that's a really big part of the planner's job.
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I think there is, you know, sometimes a culture of talking about aggressively or shouting too much or, you know, and I really don't think that's the right approach sometimes because you only need one event partner to not feel
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great on an event or not feel excited about the job for it to potentially go wrong.
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And I really think that my key piece of advice is stay humble and really think about the people that you're surrounding yourself with because they are as important to your job as you are and that you can't do
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your job without super important.
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Great wisdom.
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And I think you're right.
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I think people think it's this glamorous thing.
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And actually I actually recorded a TikTok video yesterday about here's all the reasons you don't want to work in the wedding industry because people think it's really glamorous.
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It's like you've got to work every Saturday and possibly every Sunday.
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You're going to work really long hours, you're going to have emails to reply to later night, you know.
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And I ended was tongue in cheek.
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I end it with but it's still the best industry in the world.
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But I think sometimes people see that shiny TikTok Instagram side of our industry or they've seen JLO on a movie and they think, oh, I want to be this glamorous wedding planner.
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But actually they forget it means scrubbing floors, being their last, being their first, you know, managing people.
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So I think, yeah, I love what you say about being.
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I have a lovely quick story from, from last year we did an incredible event in Rome which you can see on our social media and I'm so proud of the work that the team did to execute it because
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it was really difficult and site we had to get, we had to get authority.
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We have to get authorization from the Ministry of Culture in Italy to execute this job.
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But I spent the whole time on site to do it with the build and it was really hot.
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And every time I went back to the Airbnb in this tiny little town called Tivoli, I apologize to the BB manager a couple of times.
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I'm so sorry that every time you come in my room my towels are black because I was so dusty.
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Every time I came back from the Airbnb I had to shower and scrub this dust off me and this, the trainers that I wore on site every day went through the washing machine four times before they were the
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color they originally were, you know, and it's, it's a, it could be a really wonderful but dirty job.
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And you know, it is, it's, you know, I don't wear Beautiful shoes when you're building, because they will get ruined.
25:42
Yeah, absolutely.
25:43
Absolutely.
25:44
Now, what do you think is then that separates the planners that come into this industry and maybe they're around for a couple of years and then they just disappear again?
25:51
And those that are here in the industry for 10, 20 years, what is it that you think gives people that longevity rather than just being a flash in the pan?
26:00
One of the early things that I learned from Sarah was, was that our event partners, the providers that come on every job, are also our clients.
26:08
You know, they have to be spoken to, dealt with, respected, in the same way you would respect the client.
26:13
And I really think that culture in our business really makes us, you know, it gives us the legacy because we work with some amazing providers all over the world.
26:23
Sometimes those providers then bring us a client again because they say, you know, we really enjoyed working with you.
26:28
It was really fun.
26:29
It was exciting.
26:29
We've got really looked after.
26:31
We think you look after this client really well.
26:33
And I think that it's a.
26:35
The world sort of revolves around the relationships element and understanding that you are not beyond, you know, a negative comment or a positive comment.
26:45
And the influence that you have on that is entirely about how you manage your relationships.
26:49
So I think that some people that do come into this, I would always say you need to think about the way I would always speak to people, the way you'd hope to be spoken to.
26:57
And it's really important.
26:58
Right.
26:59
And never do anything that you're not willing to do yourself, you know, and that, that was something I learned in retail.
27:04
You know, I would always intentionally support the deal with doing things like cleaning the bathrooms and everything else, because it is important, you know, it's the level of respect.
27:12
And I think people that last longer.
27:14
The thing that I've seen and learned with the amazing people we get to meet that Sarah has worked alongside across America and all over the world, the level of respect that they all share together and the way they
27:26
interact together is really wonderful.
27:27
And I think that that is a really important part of success.
27:31
Yeah, absolutely.
27:32
Relationships are key.
27:33
Which brings me beautifully onto my next question, because I think you are part of the industry, which I think other suppliers, the regular supplier on a pedestal.
27:43
So planners and venues are.
27:46
You know, when I go to a networking event, when I speak to people, all they say to me is, I want to be recommended by planners and venues.
27:52
I want to be in the room with planners and venues.
27:53
And I laugh with you because when you're at the UK Wedding association meetings, I Always think you have a whole crowd of people around you because they want to.
28:01
They want to speak to the planner, they want to, you know, they want the relationship with the planner.
28:05
And yet sometimes it feels like an impossible job to get on a planner's list.
28:10
You know, you're a florist, you're a cake maker, and all they want to do is be recommended by a planner, be recommended by a venue.
28:17
How do they do it?
28:19
Like, how do you find suppliers?
28:21
I mean, obviously you've got a high expectation, you've got a lot of relationships.
28:24
Do you bring new people in?
28:25
Do you tend to use people you've used before?
28:30
This topic fascinates me because I think that there is in.
28:34
In the subcategor.
28:35
There's a lot of subcategories across the wedding and events industry.
28:39
And I think that the subcategories that are not planners believe.
28:42
And I can't speak on behalf of any other planner, I can only speak on the way we work, that everyone will work solely with a group of people and it's quite, you know, clicky and, you know, you'd always
28:52
be shin.
28:53
And that may be the case for us.
28:55
Every single team that we put together is different every single time.
28:59
And sometimes, depending on what the project is and what we're trying to execute, will determine what type of production company we might need to work with and whether or not we need to work with someone we know well
29:10
and we trust.
29:11
Because of the difficulties of the project, however, we always try and localize and work with those production companies and the wider part of the team.
29:21
So the labor parts of the team, if you will, the execution people, the building people, we always try and push that.
29:26
Those people are brought in from local towns and everything else.
29:29
This year we're working with loads of new vendors, particularly around photography and videography, and exploring different types of vendors across the world.
29:39
And the reason for that is because we always look to give new people new opportunities.
29:44
Now, what I will say is, is that some of those subcategories are also saturated and particularly photo and photography is very competitive right now.
29:53
And me and Eloise have a.
29:55
Have a bit of a laugh on a Thursday because we think that people don't really do much admin work on a Friday anymore because on a Thursday afternoon we must get 10 to 20 emails, cold emails, of people
30:07
reaching out and just trying to get their foot in the door.
30:10
And I think that's a very difficult thing to try and do.
30:12
What I will say is we don't have.
30:14
We at Sarah Hayward do not have a place like this.
30:17
We don't work like that.
30:18
We try and look for new talent all the time and it is entirely dependent on the projects that we're executing.
30:23
So we talk to a client about their vision, we explore what they want to achieve, and then we go out to market and look for people that stylistically could execute that project in the right way with the right
30:35
tone and the right vision.
30:36
That might be someone we already know because we.
30:39
We know they can do that well, it might be somebody that can do the scale that we need to execute at, or it might be somebody completely new because we're looking for a new artistic way of executing photography
30:51
as an example, or it might be a new designer that is not necessarily floral and may be leading the way in a different way of executing scenic design.
31:02
And it might be relevant to the vision that the client has.
31:05
So we explore constantly, and particularly in down months, we spend a lot of time looking at new things.
31:12
I appreciate, though, that it is really hard because there is probably at the moment a lot of opportunity to try and interact with planners and not necessarily as many opportunities to get the work right.
31:25
It's really hard because I think that people need to think about the way they present themselves in the media.
31:31
I'm very passionate about us replying to every single person that sends us an email.
31:35
That doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be the right person at the right time for a project right now.
31:40
And I think that there is a environment in our industry where it is about the long game relationships, right?
31:45
It is about you knowing that if you've executed the relationship, start the relationship in the right way and you're building that relationship in the right way, that at some point you may be presented to a client because you
31:56
might be a right fit for that client.
31:58
And that is sort of the way we work.
31:59
Cold emails are difficult because so many people do them.
32:02
So it becomes sort of a memorable.
32:03
But.
32:03
But at the last UK Wedding association meeting, there was a live event artist there and she came to me and said, I just want to give you this.
32:12
I hope you don't mind.
32:13
You know, she'd written my name on the front of it in a really beautiful way.
32:16
And it was.
32:16
It was an envelope of postcards and images and drawings that she had done and just.
32:21
She just asked me if I could take it back to the team and it was wonderful the way she presented it to me.
32:25
And I took it back to the team and the team absolutely thought it was great.
32:28
So when the time is right and there's a right fit, she will absolutely be presented in some way to the client as an option or the entertainment element of their event.
32:36
Right.
32:37
So, yeah, I think it's a really hard question to answer because we don't have a preferred supplier list.
32:41
It is just about knowing that you might be in the right place at the right time for us to meet you and then you might be the right fit for a client that's somewhere down the line.
32:50
Yeah.
32:50
And I think again, you say it's a hard question to answer, but actually I think people will find listening to that answer really interesting because I think they have this idea in their head that you've just got five
32:59
people on a list and you always use them.
33:01
So actually to hear that, that it's different to that, I think is helpful, to hear there's more creative ways to chat with you and be respectful is really helpful.
33:11
I think the part I want to just dig a little bit deeper into is when you say that you as a team go out and look for people.
33:16
So I just want to understand, because I'm a marketer, that makes me interested.
33:20
What is it that you're looking at?
33:21
Are you looking at their website?
33:22
Are you looking at their social media?
33:24
Are you searching for them on Google?
33:26
Are you looking at their price points?
33:27
Like, what are you actually looking for when you do that exercise?
33:30
Yeah, I think, I think a lot of our clients are led by social media and therefore we interact in those spaces regularly.
33:36
So, you know, particularly, particularly around visual elements or creative elements.
33:40
Looking at the way those people present themselves on social media platforms is super important because we know that as soon as we say the name of a business or brand or a person, the client is going to look
33:50
straight at their social media platforms.
33:52
So I think that social media is a really important part of the way you represent yourself and the point of view that you want to put across.
34:02
Obviously, following that websites are obviously very helpful, but ultimately we try and have conversations with people if we think they're right.
34:09
So the team spent quite a lot of time doing outreach, reaching out, talking on the phone.
34:13
If we think that you're right for, for a client, we might have, or we think that you might be a great, you know, creative to know for the future.
34:22
The team will absolutely speak to you, you know, and, and when they have the moment and the time.
34:28
Obviously not this month, it's peak season, but when they have the moment and time, they will, they will, they will look to try and meet with you, to Try and understand about the way you present to the client,
34:36
the way you interact with us, the way you may then interact with them.
34:40
Yeah, it, I think the starting point is, is often social media, but I think that is because of the culture and the world we live in now.
34:47
Yeah, that is where people are looking right now.
34:49
I want to do a little bit of myth busting as well.
34:50
Or maybe it's not a myth, but another thing I hear a lot is, well, if a luxury planner wants to work with me, they'll look at my website and they'll disc, they'll say, no, we can't work with them
35:00
because they're too cheap.
35:02
Is that true?
35:03
Is there an element where someone can be too cheap or if you like their work and they're a reasonable cost.
35:08
Are you still happy to have that conversation?
35:10
Yeah, I think price is irrelevant to us in some respects.
35:15
I think that pricing varies in so many ways.
35:18
It can't be the first point of reason.
35:23
I actually think quite a lot of people underestimate themselves in pricing, particularly around photo and photography and, sorry, photography and videography.
35:34
And I think that people think they need to be cheaper to be in the saturated market and be more relevant.
35:39
It's not about that, really.
35:41
You know, you should present yourself in the way you want to present yourself and then understand your value regardless of what it is that you're providing.
35:49
We don't look at the price and go, oh, you know, they're so cheap.
35:53
Like they can't be at the right level.
35:54
We don't do that at all.
35:55
That's just not a thing for us, you know, and in fact, if we work with people and they are not necessarily in the price bracket that we may be used to working with them, sometimes we get an incredible
36:07
experience because they're so determined to, you know, work in a really wonderful way and prove themselves sometimes afterwards, which says then, you know, we really think you need to look at the, what you're pricing and, and consider for
36:18
next time your value because the value you've added to Arab is incredible.
36:22
You know, so, yeah, I think pricing is a really difficult conversation to have because I think there's so many variations and there's so many versions.
36:30
And my guidance on that would be know your value.
36:34
Yeah, and I think it's an interesting one as well because that story you've just told about how someone gets the opportunity to work with you and then you tell them to put their price up, sometimes that is the
36:42
journey someone needs to take because when they haven't had that opportunity to be at that luxury end of the market.
36:48
They're having to, to price lower, to get the work, to pay their bills, to get the food.
36:51
But actually, once they've taken that step and had the confidence and realized they can work at that level, sometimes that helps them kind of make that jump because, you know, it's chicken and egg.
37:01
You kind of got to get your first step into that world to be able to get more.
37:05
And I also think it isn't as, you know, as square as we think you should put your pricing up.
37:10
I think it's more about understanding your value and respecting the value you sit at.
37:15
You know, I think, think if people want you at their event because of the work that you provide, know what that value is and understand that value is desired by that client.
37:24
Yeah, absolutely.
37:25
Okay.
37:26
Before we move on to my next few questions, I also want to know if there's anything people do that puts you off wanting to work with them.
37:33
So is there any ways that someone might approach you, an event or your.
37:36
You talked about the cold emails coming in at the moment.
37:39
I getting fed up of people cold emailing me from ChatGPT about being on my podcast.
37:43
So I've seen it's like the same template over and over and over again.
37:46
So is it anything that comes in or comes your way and you think, no, you've messed this up?
37:52
I would say no initially.
37:54
So basically we do get a lot of emails.
37:57
We do get a lot of people, you know, presenting their work to us and presenting themselves to us.
38:01
What I find difficult to navigate is that we always will respond to everybody in some capacity.
38:07
And that might be that we're saying to you, nothing right now.
38:11
Thank you for sharing this.
38:13
We'll keep it to the side and we'll share it with the events team.
38:15
And if there's an opportunity for us to work with you in the future, we'll reach back out.
38:19
And then three days later we get an email from the same person saying, curious to know what the event team thought?
38:23
You know, and it's like you didn't, you haven't, you haven't really engaged with what we've said because we, we are going to look at you.
38:31
We will look at you, but that doesn't mean you're going, we're going to now provide you with extensive feedback.
38:36
It's about whether or not you're right for an event at the right time.
38:38
So.
38:39
So the follow up emails can sometimes be a little bit challenging to navigate because the answer to that is as we said to you before, if the opportunity is right, we will come to you and we will speak
38:49
to you about that opportunity.
38:51
So that the one thing that really, really grates me is this happened this week, actually, when we get emails with the wrong name on, because it feels like it's just a blanket approach to trying to present.
39:05
Or if Eloise responds and then that person responds saying, thanks, Lee, or thanks, Sarah, but it's from Eloise, you know, it's.
39:13
It's rushed, it feels rushed then, and then, therefore, it doesn't feel considered.
39:17
It feels like you're sitting at a desk and blanket emailing a thousand people in the hope that someone comes back to you with the answer.
39:24
So it bothers me when people don't look at the detail or consider that actually you're trying to start a relationship.
39:31
So make sure the detail is right for the relationship.
39:33
Yeah.
39:34
Especially when you've just spoken about a culture of, you know, valuing the other people in your team, valuing the suppliers you work with.
39:39
If they can't even get the name right, that's not great start to the relationship.
39:43
And quite honestly, I don't know, maybe it occasionally works if they're creative, but I can't imagine that the cold email works very often if you've never heard of them unless they've got something very different or very creative to
39:55
share.
39:56
Yeah, sometimes if it's really different or really creative, we do, as I said, we look at everything that comes in.
40:02
So the way it works is effectively, Eloise will look at it and then we'll talk about it during our production meeting.
40:07
So anyone that's coming that could be of interest, we will explore it during a production meeting as a team and, you know, look at new providers and talk about the exciting things that some people do send through.
40:17
So, you know, I do look at everything because sometimes there's some really incredible and interesting things out there, you know, particularly around artistry or entertainment.
40:28
There's some really great new things coming through.
40:30
So, you know, I think the cold email is a difficult thing because also, am I going, you know, you're not going to come and knock on the door and just go, hi, can I talk to you for 10
40:38
minutes?
40:38
You know, it's.
40:40
It doesn't.
40:40
That's not going to work.
40:41
So I do appreciate that it's a really difficult thing to navigate, you know, and sometimes it's of interest and sometimes it's much of the same or it's really obvious near chat GPT, you know, which, which I disconnect with
40:54
almost because I, I'm, first of all I'm not very technology bound as a person.
40:58
I'm much more of a human interactor so I, I like the wall so I like it when someone sends an email but it's different and it's not, you know, hi, I'm X person and here's a deck with my
41:08
work and can you, can we talk about whether or not I can work with you?
41:11
Well, of course we can, but it's not, you've just really, you know, not thought about presenting yourself in a way that could grab the attention of somebody reading it.
41:21
Right.
41:21
Yeah.
41:22
And you've got one opportunity to shoot your shot so don't rely on a robot like just be yourself, just be, be, be humble, be creative.
41:29
Think about what you're going to say, don't just chatgpt.
41:32
And I think you're probably making rod for your own back.
41:34
But I love that you do it in replying to everyone.
41:37
I think it's so important that you do that.
41:38
But people are so used to not getting replies, they're probably so excited when you reply that they think they've really got a chance and that's probably why you're ending up with loads of follow ups as well.
41:47
But again I think it's important to reply because people have taken the time, make the effort, you know.
41:52
But one of the things I would say is I do some, I personally believe that a little bit less and more focused is better.
41:59
You know, things like the wedding association or the other, you know, areas of connectivity and networking that are in our industry.
42:07
I do think that sometimes the time is better spent not sending loads of emails, going to those things, meeting people face to face because putting a name to a face for me as a, as a, as a more
42:18
of a creative human thinker is much greater for me because I go back to the scene, go.
42:21
I met this photographer, you know, EWPC in Sardinia and she was super.
42:25
I mean, you know, the stuff that she's showing on social media is fab and we should really just think about looking at her for something in the future if the opportunity is right.
42:34
Right.
42:35
And I remember her now and I always remember her and you know, four months on she just sent a nice note saying it was, it was lovely to see you, you know and I'm really pleased we connected and
42:45
just in case you need it, here's my presentation.
42:49
Wonderful.
42:50
You know, and that was much more focused and considered not a blanket email that's gone, you know, they've just changed the name and it's a different font size or a different.
42:58
It's in bold because they've asked an automated system to change the names and they put 10 names in it, you know.
43:05
Yeah, I would, I would say it's, it's.
43:07
You can really see when people, people have thought about it, I think.
43:10
Yeah.
43:11
And a little bit goes an extra long way for sure.
43:14
Now you mentioned it in your answer to that question, which beautifully brings me on to my next question.
43:18
Around the UK Wedding Association.
43:20
So I said in the intro, we've been working together as part of the advisory board over the last year for the UK Wedding association.
43:28
And one of the big things that I think both of us are really kind of focused on is the idea that the UKWA is there to help people professionalize.
43:37
And you've been speaking at some of the last few events and you've been speaking on topics that maybe sometimes people might prefer to ignore or they don't really enjoy talking about.
43:46
So things like HR health and safety risk assessments.
43:50
Why is it, do you think, as an industry, people tend to ignore or neglect these topics?
43:55
Yeah, I think when you join our industry, you're probably a creative person and you come into the industry because you have these creative itches and you want to develop them and explore them and it's, it's a beautiful, colorful
44:10
industry or industry scraping that off the top though everyone is still running a business and those business still need to operate compliantly, properly, legally.
44:18
You know, the people, hr, er, elements still there if you have at least one person that you work with.
44:24
And I think it's really important and this is why I'm really proud to part of the ukwa.
44:28
I think it's really important that our industry is exposed to those things in real terms because a lot of people don't.
44:36
Even though these problems could exist in their, in their business and they don't know until it's a problem.
44:42
Right.
44:42
And then they don't have the tools or the knowledge or the experience or the people around them to support them to resolve that problem before it becomes a massive one or even has to start dealing with it in
44:55
the first place.
44:56
And one of the things I found joining our industry is that everybody doesn't know the same things, if that makes sense.
45:03
So we all go to the networking events, we all, you know, have these fantastic opportunities to speak to each other, but the gaps are all the same for everybody.
45:11
So the ukwa, and this is why, you know, I'm really passionate about it, about it moving forward has created an opportunity for us to fill those really boring gaps that everybody has in a really creative way.
45:26
It's all a niche where actually we can do it in a different way and we can show everybody these things they probably need to know about, be aware of, and give them the skills, opportunities to get ahead of
45:36
the problems that they could seat in function in a business.
45:38
Regardless of what it is, if you run a box factory or a wedding planning business, the fundamentals of running a business are still the same.
45:46
And because our businesses are all smaller or they're more creative led, we ultimately have a group of people that don't know or have the knowledge of these things or haven't come from industries that had them before because they're
45:59
already creatives.
46:00
Right.
46:00
So having the UKWA as part of the industry now has really created an opportunity, I believe, to tackle those things head on in a really safe way and allow people to openly speak about their problems and allow people
46:14
in the room to support them with finding solutions.
46:16
And I think that's really important in our industry.
46:19
The education is, is not there and we need to keep exploring how we can expand it.
46:23
And I think there needs to be a bit of a culture shift actually in the industry about realizing, particularly with the small independent business owners that are people I support, that these things are really important and relevant to
46:33
them.
46:34
I remember we had a conversation about the last event and how it was about hr and lots of people said, oh, I don't think that's for me, I don't think it's important.
46:41
But actually, and I was there in the room having heard that whole talk, it was incredibly relevant to not only big teams, but also small business owners.
46:49
And so I think people need to stop counting themselves out or thinking, oh, I don't need that piece of advice.
46:55
And what was really interesting, something really stood out to me at that session was there was a conversation around sexual harassment at work.
47:03
And I've been in this industry over a decade and I have not once ever heard anyone on stage have a conversation about sexual harassment.
47:11
I mean, it's not the sort of thing you want to go, come and listen to this, talk about this.
47:15
But yet it opened up conversations of people going, well, I've dealt with that at weddings and that is the solo photographer, female, at the, at the wedding on their own, the florist.
47:24
You know, that is an issue that we deal with and we're not talking about it.
47:29
And I love that now there are these events and there are these opportunities where we can be talking about These incredibly important issues that if we were in a corporate job, we would be going to training about all
47:38
the time.
47:39
But because we're not, we're not talking about them.
47:42
Yeah.
47:42
And, you know, that's a really great point, and it's a really good example because that's the second time that that topic has come up at an event.
47:50
Because the one I was at previously with Raj from Silver Fox, we were, we were talking about working at Scale Safely.
47:58
And it came up there as well.
48:00
And it was really interesting to hear it in the different topics which, you know, I came away from the last one thinking, okay, do we need to explore safety as an individual, as a topic now?
48:11
Because these conversations, these open conversations are developing more opportunity for us to develop more educational sessions because we're hearing these things at these events.
48:22
And actually they're super important.
48:24
And single point, there's so many people in our industry that are, you know, independent workers, they're lone rangers, and they're going to environments where they may not know anybody to safely state that there is a problem or they
48:36
don't feel safe.
48:37
And, you know, particularly, I'm seeing more and more with ukwa, particularly celebrants.
48:42
Celebrants are talking about some of these things, and it's so important.
48:45
And you come away from those things thinking, you know, it is worrying that we're not creating safe spaces in these environments.
48:53
So we have to explore how we do it together.
48:55
And, you know, to the point about the ukwa, I then see conversations afterwards about people coming together and working through these problems together.
49:04
So.
49:05
So it's creating more unity across subcategories so they can support each other with these challenges of running their businesses or with these challenges at the live events.
49:14
And I think that's really great.
49:16
I really think that's fantastic that we've managed to just achieve that in a year, that we've, you know, we've developed an opportunity to create an environment for people to feel safe to talk about these things and then explore
49:27
together as an industry how we resolve them.
49:28
And that is really, really great.
49:30
Yeah.
49:30
And that is how we will over time make our industry have these pillars of professionalism.
49:36
And everyone will uplevel together if they're part of it and they're learning about it now, if there's someone listening and they're thinking, okay, I think I probably do need to professionalize myself a bit.
49:46
I'm a little bit of a lone ranger doing all sorts of scatty things.
49:49
Is there one piece of advice?
49:50
What's one thing they could be doing behind the scenes to become a little bit more professional.
49:55
So I think one of the things that benefit us as a business is that I'm not from the industry and I would, I would advise people to network and connect with people that aren't necessarily from the immediate world
50:06
that you work and live in.
50:07
Because the learning there is, the gaps in your learning are where you will find it elsewhere.
50:12
Right.
50:13
So we're very lucky that we get to speak together and work together within the industry.
50:17
But ultimately, as I said before, I feel like we all don't know the same things.
50:22
So if there's opportunities for you to immediately look for other networking opportunities across subcategories, whether it's at home, from family and friends, you know, know what questions to ask and look for those answers in different worlds because you
50:35
will find them.
50:36
You will find them.
50:37
Retailers have a lot of knowled across a lot of different things.
50:40
So if you know retail managers and you have a problem with a team member or you know, you're not sure how to manage a difficult situation around a risk assessment, or you have questions about your insurance, ask a
50:50
retailer because they will know the answer.
50:53
We're all going to be going into our local shops asking for the retail manager.
50:56
Can we, can we just have a five minute conversation?
50:59
This guy on a podcast told us that you know all of the answers.
51:02
But it's great advice and I think it kind of goes full circle to that thing we talked about the beginning, about looking at opportunities outside of the industry.
51:10
I often talk when I talk about people and their marketing, I say to them, look at what people are doing in other industries to market themselves and look at what you can learn from me.
51:17
Because we can learn, you know, we look at what everyone else is doing, we all just look the same.
51:20
Whereas actually we can look at what other industries are doing.
51:23
We might not have their budgets, but we can use some of that creativity and bring it into our own.
51:27
And it's the same with operations and that kind of stuff too.
51:30
And I think the other thing as well, that is a good, really real hard fact about running a business is find somebody in the insurance world that understands what you do.
51:40
Because I see insurance tickets from people from all walks of the industry.
51:46
Sometimes they're not fully covered and it's because the provider doesn't actually understand what they're doing.
51:51
So it's really important that you find in that function of running a business that really can make sure you're working safely and you're covered Safely.
51:58
Yeah, that's a really, really important piece of advice.
52:00
Another important topic, maybe we need to cover at a UKWA meeting and contract the other one.
52:05
I, I've got a friend who's getting married at the moment and she's a lawyer, like a high up lawyer.
52:08
And she is like shaking her head at some of the, she's like the hair and makeup contract, she's like, they're not getting anything from me if I cancel because the contract is so poor, because she knows what she's
52:18
talking about.
52:19
And those poor individual businesses probably don't realize how poor their contract is because they, they've either made it themselves or, or had it made ages ago.
52:27
And so again, it's just reiterating all of these different areas that, yeah, they're not the most exciting thing to talk about, but actually they're the thing that's going to make our industry much more professional and they're going to
52:37
protect you in the long run.
52:38
They are.
52:39
And you know, I've always said this.
52:41
In all the different, you know, versions of my career that I've had, the boring stuff is usually the important stuff, you know, and if you don't know or you don't know the answer, the best thing to do is
52:51
find somebody that can give you the answer or help you find it.
52:54
Because it's the boring stuff is the important stuff.
52:57
Yeah, absolutely is.
52:58
Leigh, this has been such a great conversation.
53:00
Thank you so much for your transparency, your honesty.
53:02
We talked about all sorts of different things, but there's so much useful information in there.
53:06
I always end my podcast with the same question.
53:08
So I'm going to ask you that now.
53:09
And it's this.
53:10
What's one thing you personally wish you'd known sooner in business?
53:14
Don't rush.
53:15
You don't know everything and you'll never know everything.
53:18
So take time to learn, take time to think about what you're doing and don't run at everything head on.
53:25
And I've learned that a number of times as I was younger that you can run into something about all the knowledge and experience and it can make it a lot harder.
53:32
Harder.
53:32
Take your time.
53:33
Don't look at everybody else and what they're doing.
53:35
Just focus on what you're doing.
53:37
Take your time, do it properly, do it correctly, and you will succeed.
53:40
Super helpful, Lee.
53:41
Thank you so much for your time.
53:42
If people want to find out more about you, about Sarah Haywood, about the planning company, where are all the best places for them to find you?
53:48
And we'll put them in the show notes.
53:49
So Instagram at Sarah Hayward Weddings that you can see all of our wonderful work there.
53:54
It's just the tip of the iceberg of the things we're allowed to show.
53:56
We recently did a website Update, so Sarah Hayward.com you can see see some of our work there.
54:01
There's a piece about our employee ownership and you can see some of the team members, so you know who to reach out to if you want to speak to us.
54:07
All their beautiful faces are on the About Us page.
54:11
And of course, if you do want to speak to us, send us an email at hello, Sarah Haywood.com and we will reply.
54:16
We always do.
54:17
Just be creative, think about what you're going to say and please, please, please do not use AI.
54:22
Write it from the heart.
54:24
At least importantly, Lee, don't send it on a Thursday.
54:27
Maybe send it on a Friday instead.
54:31
Leigh, thank you so much.
54:32
I'm sure that we will see each other again soon.
54:35
Thank you for your time.
54:36
Yeah, thank you.
54:37
Bye.
54:38
Such a great conversation with Lee.
54:39
Really enjoyed Diving Deep.
54:41
And I think, as you, the listener at home, have listened to that.
54:44
I hope you've got an understanding into what really goes on in the world of luxury wedding planning.
54:49
The honesty and transparency in which Lee shared about all of the ways that they look to work with their suppliers and look for new people.
54:56
Hope you've earned and learned something from that, too.
54:58
And hopefully also taken away the importance of professionalizing.
55:01
Whether you're a huge business or whether it's just you, there's so much more you can be doing.
55:06
I'll see you all next time.