Latest / The Adults In The AI Room / Henrik de Gyor on Synthetic Media - Episode #6

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Henrik de Gyor on Synthetic Media - Episode #6 · The Adults In The AI Room

0:22
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: If this is your first time, we invite you to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: And now here are your hosts, Seth Early and Chris Featherstone.
0:36
SPEAKER_02: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, depending upon your time zone.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to today's podcast.
0:42
SPEAKER_02: My name is Seth Early.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm Chris.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: It's good to be with you.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: Chris Featherstone, my partner in crime here on these podcasts and Early AI.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: And uh Chris, I know uh things have been a little crazy.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: I know uh how how have you been uh these last few weeks?
1:00
SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you, um, you know, I don't know if we're gonna go through like, you know, it's gonna be Omicron, and then we're gonna go through like old school um, you know, like Autobots and products and things to name these things.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the what the theme is.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's Delta Chrome is next.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: When do we get to Optimus Prime?
1:19
SPEAKER_01: You know, things like that, right?
1:22
SPEAKER_02: I actually tested positive a few days ago.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: I felt crappy for a while and then sorry, yeah.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: I tested negative, so had minimal symptoms.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm triple waxed, whatever, but uh I'm feeling good, but feel like a little bit of uh okay, I got out of the way.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: If it was a correct positive test, who knows?
1:39
SPEAKER_02: Could it be well?
1:40
SPEAKER_01: It's weird.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's rearing its ugly head in different ways, right?
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Because I think my kids have gone through it and they gave me a cold, but now the common cold, you can't chalk that up to it.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's some way, you know, like if you get some other you start to cough or you start to have a sneeze or something, it's like it's corona.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
2:01
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter anymore.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: So well, listen, let's get to our guest.
2:06
SPEAKER_02: Our guest today is a man of many interests.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: He started his career as a news photographer, interestingly, and he found himself with hundreds of thousands of photographs that needed to be tagged and cataloged.
2:18
SPEAKER_02: What this did was it brought him to uh the need to become an expert on digital asset management and areas related to that.
2:26
SPEAKER_02: And his ability to crack the code on those topics and make them comprehensible has made him a sought-after speaker and consultant.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: Uh, he's also an author and a podcaster.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: His latest book is Synthetic Media, The Next Reality, which is slated for release uh actually next month.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: So please welcome Henrik De Goyer.
2:49
SPEAKER_02: Hi, everyone.
2:50
SPEAKER_02: Henrik, great to see you.
2:51
SPEAKER_02: And uh I I know we've known each other for many, many years.
2:54
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we went back to the back in the old days of the Henry Stewart events, and uh I know that uh you've been doing some really, really interesting, uh interesting stuff.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: I I before I I continue, I do want to uh thank our our sponsors.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: We have uh CMS Wire or uh Simpler Media, uh of course, Early Information Science and the Marketing AI Institute.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: So those are all uh sponsors and check out their websites and their resources, and they're really terrific.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they'll be listed on the site where the podcasts are, right?
3:24
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, absolutely.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: And so maybe you could talk a little bit about um how you got to where you are.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've told us a little bit of the story.
3:32
SPEAKER_02: Maybe you can kind of walk through I gave the highlights.
3:36
SPEAKER_05: Sure.
3:36
SPEAKER_05: Thanks.
3:37
SPEAKER_05: Thanks, Chris.
3:38
SPEAKER_05: So basically, I um I'm I work in niche topics typically.
3:42
SPEAKER_05: Um digital asset management is one of them, uh otherwise known as DAM.
3:47
SPEAKER_05: Um, but I I try to look into the further into other things that are related to those, whether it's metadata, whether it's rights management.
3:56
SPEAKER_05: And one of the most recent topics that I've looked at is um how media is created or and will be created going forward.
4:05
SPEAKER_05: And it won't be just by us humans, it'll be by machines like AIs, uh, through deep learning and a variety of other things.
4:13
SPEAKER_05: And it'll also be different kinds of media that we're not used to.
4:16
SPEAKER_05: It won't be just things that we're we hear and see.
4:20
SPEAKER_05: And that brings a whole set of different questions and and possibilities, good and bad, of course.
4:27
SPEAKER_05: And and some of those we're already seeing.
4:30
SPEAKER_05: Um, and like many technologies, they're used for the nefarious first, and then eventually people see the good out of the possibility, uh, possibilities of what you can do with it, and that's how they be they thrive.
4:43
SPEAKER_05: Um, so I uh somebody asked me to write a book around blockchain a few years ago, so I did, and I looked into that very deeply, and um, because those were digital assets as well.
4:54
SPEAKER_05: So I looked into those.
4:56
SPEAKER_05: Um, then interestingly enough, there's alignments to that because uh people are using blockchain with synthetic media, and there's a large mixture of these layers and facets, so it's really fascinating.
5:09
SPEAKER_05: And what I wanted to do is dot connect.
5:11
SPEAKER_02: You're really connected to fascinating, you're really fascinating.
5:13
SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
5:14
SPEAKER_05: Yes, it's very faceted, and there's a lot of dots to connect where people are really, really focused on.
5:21
SPEAKER_05: It's okay.
5:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I get it.
5:23
SPEAKER_02: Those are those are my irregular jokes, the ones that don't elicit laughter or no worries.
5:29
SPEAKER_05: So so I wanted to make sure I connect those dots for to simplify things that are not understood because for the most part, synthetic media is not understood, deep fakes are not understood.
5:40
SPEAKER_02: And and it really is so interesting because again, with your background in digital asset management and the manipulation of those assets, it certainly leads to this whole idea of synthetic media, and it really, really is an interesting area.
5:53
SPEAKER_02: So uh maybe you can kind of give us a definition of what it is and the different flavors, and then um, you know, some of those implications because it really is an interesting, interesting area.
6:05
SPEAKER_02: I know I I've uh seen and heard some demos of um one was uh um I think it was uh uh key and peel, one of the key or the peel.
6:17
SPEAKER_02: I forget which one it was, but he was on a an Adobe uh conference, and basically he said something, they transcribed it, and then they changed the transcription, and they were able to uh uh synthesize the voice voice and the vocal intonations, and it sounded exactly like him.
6:37
SPEAKER_02: They just changed the text, and then with their deep learning models of his speech behaviors and speech characteristics, it came off perfectly.
6:46
SPEAKER_02: It just sounded exactly like him, which was mind-boggling.
6:49
SPEAKER_05: Yep.
6:50
SPEAKER_05: And that can be done within a few minutes nowadays with uh the right uh training models and things like that, which is pretty amazing.
6:56
SPEAKER_05: Uh what used to take weeks or months or hours is now down to minutes, um, depending on what you're asking for.
7:03
SPEAKER_05: The more custom it is, the more, the more time, of course, it takes to build, of course.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: So, Henrik, I'd love to get a take too from, you know, because we've got a diverse um audience, right, that's looking at this, and you have such a phenomenal background centered in, okay, I've got to focus on AI-related topics that are more germane to, let's say, media and content today.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: And then now we've got all of this emerging stuff that's going to be hitting us soon that we've got to figure out how, you know, to blend the, like you said, this to text to speech, which is now, you know, using neural nets, you can actually, you know, I could take Seth with a you know training model in, like I said, a few minutes to a few hours, and now can use his voice in any context that I need to blended with you know good video.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I'd love to get you know, take us, take a couple steps back in terms of like, you know, the the asset management and what people are doing centered around how to get their, you know, kind of their head around what to do with all this media, whether it's created or um user defined or user created and what that looks like.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: And then you know, definitely want to jump into all of the other pieces because you're you're right.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: The nefarious topics are super interesting, scary as hell, and yet what we need to do is understand them in order to pull out the good, right?
8:24
SPEAKER_01: So that makes sense.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: So kind of crawl walk on, that'd be awesome.
8:28
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely, yeah.
8:28
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
8:28
SPEAKER_05: So so so uh one of my interests was was well, all these files are being gonna be created, right?
8:33
SPEAKER_05: And this media is gonna be created.
8:35
SPEAKER_05: How are we gonna store it and find it again, right?
8:37
SPEAKER_05: Which goes back to what about a lot of what you guys do uh at at Rurley.
8:41
SPEAKER_05: And and that was one of the major uh themes of like, okay, so how are we gonna categorize it all?
8:46
SPEAKER_05: But more importantly, so how is it created, first of all?
8:50
SPEAKER_05: Well, right now, most of it is is generated with the assistance of AI, um, whether it's GANs, whether it's autoencoders, uh, a variety of different tools made by well-known companies uh like NVIDIA and Samsung and others, um including Adobe and many others that we are we're very, very familiar with.
9:09
SPEAKER_05: And and a lot of startups as well that are popping up um throughout the world, honestly, that realize that there's a need to create this stuff and simplify it and democratize it.
9:20
SPEAKER_05: So there's people that are super, super specialists that are creating things that are like deep fakes or that are creating synthetic media where you can literally type in a script like you mentioned, and an avatar will say that script perfectly in whatever language you want.
9:34
SPEAKER_05: And you pick up to 50, 60 languages to have it translated, and it can be done in a few minutes with no video camera, no video shoots, no sitting in a studio, nothing, none of that.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: And so the the what synthetic media is the future of actors' careers is going to be in jeopardy.
9:52
SPEAKER_05: It's no, it's actually going to be scalable if you think about it.
9:55
SPEAKER_05: It's gonna be more scaled.
9:57
SPEAKER_05: So so if you want if you want to pay for a personalized birthday message by your favorite celebrity, that's very easy to do, and they don't have to spend a minute of time in a studio.
10:08
SPEAKER_05: You get that?
10:09
SPEAKER_01: Let's yeah, yeah, let's declare now that the the most popular, I mean it's it's basically it's like me franchising my voice and my my and my face for whatever needs to be used.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: And so it's gonna pull like like if I'm Samuel Jackson, which is gonna be the like the most widely used, you know, any voice of any time, it's literally Seth going to be that scenario where now instead of licensing my voice for let's say as a voiceover, I license my voice and my person, right, which is my IP, to these things to say, yeah, you want to create videos and everything else out of it.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: Here's now I in instead of, and this is the crazy part.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna stay at home, I'm not gonna do a damn thing, and I'm gonna collect millions and millions of dollars because you're just I'm just gonna license my stuff out there, right?
10:57
SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
10:58
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, whether it's a song or it's a speech, your point.
11:01
SPEAKER_05: So you can give a hundred speeches the same day.
11:03
SPEAKER_05: So basically, let's define synthetic media back to your earlier question.
11:06
SPEAKER_05: Synthetic media is basically media that's artificially generated by a machine, and currently it's mostly defined, like the end result is defined by a human, but that line is blurring more and more towards the machine where eventually it'll be just completely created by a machine because there's a need for it or there's an ask for it.
11:30
SPEAKER_05: And that goes into whole different types of mediums, whether it's image or video.
11:35
SPEAKER_05: There is technology today called image, sorry, text to image, where you literally type in a few words and it doesn't look up stock photography, it creates the image that you uh actually design a hundred different varieties on the fly.
11:52
SPEAKER_05: Same thing with video.
11:54
SPEAKER_05: You type in a video, I want to see this action, a video of X happening, and then you can edit, you can edit it and saying, I oh no, no, let me redefine uh a little bit more clear what I want to see, and it'll continue more cowbell.
12:09
SPEAKER_03: You want more cowbell, sure, yeah.
12:12
SPEAKER_05: Of of whoever you want singing that, right?
12:14
SPEAKER_05: Or doing that.
12:16
SPEAKER_05: I hope somebody gets that joke.
12:18
SPEAKER_05: Yes, I remember the SNL.
12:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was great.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: Was it Christopher Walken?
12:24
SPEAKER_05: Yes, yes, I believe so.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course, man.
12:29
SPEAKER_05: So so there's infinite possibilities there.
12:32
SPEAKER_05: Um, and and what's what's fascinating is is to to uh Chris's point, people will be creating things with their own avatars when you'll probably have multiple, not just one.
12:43
SPEAKER_05: So you may have one that looks like you, like the the realistic you at this point in time in history, right?
12:48
SPEAKER_05: And then you might have an idealized one to use in a game or in some other uh uh environment or gaming sites exactly gaming so that so that brings the idealized one.
13:02
SPEAKER_05: Sorry, guys, you were saying, Chris?
13:04
SPEAKER_01: Do we so that they can only use those pieces, right?
13:09
SPEAKER_05: Or say say that one more time.
13:10
SPEAKER_05: I'm sorry, you I lost your your audio there.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: So will they use an NFT or uh yeah, something like that to lock it down, right, for this version, right?
13:20
SPEAKER_01: So it's uh, you know, like how like that's that's the I think the interesting part, you know, Henrik, is let's say that I want to license my children's storybook version or my you know, adult TV mature audience version, or anything in between, you know, how do we start to segment that with like a non-fungible token or something like that?
13:43
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
13:44
SPEAKER_01: That actually guarantees the authentic the authenticity.
13:47
SPEAKER_05: Right, right.
13:48
SPEAKER_05: So it may not necessarily be in the form of an NFT, but it it the licensing model, and and I guarantee you the the the people I spoke to in the the rights management field um aren't ready for this, is is the short story.
14:02
SPEAKER_05: So so they'll have to evolve this to that model of being able to license it in any at any um reality, augmented reality, virtual reality, the metaverse, uh um uh this type of reality, whatever you want.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: Blockchain will be part of that.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: I mean, what an interesting of media, of AI, of rights management, authentication, identity management, blockchain.
14:31
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's it's so interesting.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: This is a huge layered of many things, and of course, the metadata structures to manage that and retrieval and the versioning and the you know the applications.
14:46
SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting because uh now we you know there's so much hype around the metaverse and the work meta is doing, and I can start this to imagine what all those implications are in that kind of.
15:02
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm like seriously, the metaverse.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I'm I'm I'm still dealing with this universe, you know.
15:11
SPEAKER_05: That's okay, yeah.
15:12
SPEAKER_05: And and we'll we'll get it acclimatized in the coming years when when uh eyewear or or headwear will become more popular because uh well-known manufacturers that we're all familiar with that make our phones, um, and and uh social media networks that are uh changing their name as well are creating destroying uh democracy, but anyway, that's another topic.
15:32
SPEAKER_05: Yes, they're creating uh different mediums um and hardware for us to consume this stuff, right, in different forms, whether it's augmenting, meaning putting a layer on what we see today, so that when you walk through a networking meeting and you see a bunch of faces, um, you'll see uh it'll do facial recognition of everyone in the room and say, Oh, you remember uh last time you saw Chris?
15:56
SPEAKER_05: This is who he works for, and last time you you spoke about this, right?
16:01
SPEAKER_02: That's crazy.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: That is so interesting when you think about that.
16:05
SPEAKER_02: We can't even really imagine where the next five years is going to take us.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, you think about all these guys, these these uh, you know, we'll say these um digital natives, right?
16:17
SPEAKER_01: Instead of kids, but these digital natives that are doing stuff on YouTube and all my virtual lawn.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, they've changed they've changed a lot of the semantics around like now my kids believe the only way to make money is to be, you know, on YouTube making uh making dumb videos and content and whatever else, right?
16:35
SPEAKER_01: But now what we're also saying is um the scope of of search, search results, and interesting information can now be completely generated by somebody, and you don't have to do it through that medium of let's say a video, and or you could generate that stuff and never have to.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it the the the creativity, I think, in terms of creation of these, yeah, it's yeah, sky's the limit now.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: That's it's insane.
17:02
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's melting those creative barriers that we had uh back in the physical world.
17:09
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, because now you can create anything out of anything, and so so so and out of any medium too.
17:16
SPEAKER_05: Um a lot of it hasn't been commercialized and made available to all of us and democratized, so you don't need to know uh an infinite amount of code that's evolving every month, literally, or faster.
17:28
SPEAKER_05: So it's it's a matter of being able to use those tools very simply or having services where you pay someone to create that avatar, right?
17:36
SPEAKER_05: Or to create uh the the thing that'd be useful to you or your company, right?
17:41
SPEAKER_05: Um, and those are the going to be some of the services that are gonna be coming out in the very near future, whether you're a small business and you want to advertise the your said service, your physical services or your virtual services or products.
17:53
SPEAKER_05: Um, so there there's so much possibility.
17:57
SPEAKER_05: Um, our imagination is actually what's limiting us, just just like web point 1.0 uh after the military and unfortunately porn and other nefarious things were added into one web 1.0.
18:09
SPEAKER_05: What do we mean unfortunately?
18:11
SPEAKER_05: Well, that that was the first iteration.
18:13
SPEAKER_05: I'm joking.
18:14
SPEAKER_05: I'm joking.
18:16
SPEAKER_05: The most exciting thing we could think of was to add the phone book, right?
18:19
SPEAKER_05: And you you try to explain a 20-year-old what a phone book is for, and they'll be like, Is it you had why did you have phone books?
18:29
SPEAKER_02: Chris, you're on mute, you're on mute.
18:32
SPEAKER_02: You're muted.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I and you remember that the the only way to get um attention, or we'll say likes, or it was to have a big bigger page, right?
18:42
SPEAKER_01: Bigger ad, pay for more, that kind of stuff.
18:45
SPEAKER_05: My GeoCities ad uh had to be bigger.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think the the the key will be um because we don't know what we don't know, and it is limiting our imagination.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: We let's go into the nefarious side of this for a minute because that's gonna be the way that we push the envelope, and you know, some of those other things in the past, they were those those barriers to entry to understand our limitations and where the lines could and couldn't be drawn.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: And what it also provided, too, was a way, if you will, to police it or to get ahead of how to you know put some constraints on it for let's say the common common folks, right?
19:30
SPEAKER_01: So we're always gonna have those those folks that push the bleeding edge, but at the same time, um we don't know the the limits of what this can and can't do, especially for you know affecting somebody because now what we're also saying is hey, listen, um, I'm gonna take Henrik's face and his voice because I have 10 minutes of it, and I'm gonna create, you know, something that will completely open up, let's say, a biometric, you know, voice or eye or whatever scan.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna get into his pieces because, oh yeah, that's guess what?
20:04
SPEAKER_01: Now in a court of law, um, video and audio is not can't be acceptable, right?
20:09
SPEAKER_01: Because I can't tell the authenticity of it anymore, right?
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Unless I'm on a one pen camera, you know.
20:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what does that all mean?
20:16
SPEAKER_01: It's it's like exactly that's what I'm saying.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: Let's get into these trust issues and what are these covenants issues?
20:24
SPEAKER_01: That's what I want.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: I want to understand from Henrik.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: The key is that nobody knows until we actually go through the you know the dip to understand how intense this could be to affect it.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: So anyway, go ahead.
20:37
SPEAKER_05: Sure, yeah.
20:37
SPEAKER_05: So to your exact point, when people are don't understand it, they fear it, right?
20:42
SPEAKER_05: Uh especially if they're gonna think about it and go and look at too many movies or read too many fiction books.
20:47
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes when you understand it even more, you fear it even more.
20:51
SPEAKER_05: Potentially, yes, yeah, especially if you're looking at what exists today only and not looking at the humor that's being built with it, too, right?
20:58
SPEAKER_05: So, so to your point around trust, trust, there's actually no way to measure trust, let's be honest, right?
21:04
SPEAKER_05: However, we figured out, and uh we uh the the the market, uh specifically the content uh um authenticity initiative and the coalition for content provenance and authenticity called C2PA, which you can find at c2pa.org.
21:21
SPEAKER_05: They figured out that you can figure out the provenance of something.
21:25
SPEAKER_05: What does that mean?
21:26
SPEAKER_05: It means the history of how it was created and edited and displayed to you.
21:31
SPEAKER_05: So from inception, from whatever device it was created or whatever software made it, or whatever machine made it, right?
21:38
SPEAKER_05: Um, you can figure out how it was edited, how how much of it was was manipulated, et cetera, et cetera, to to as much as possible, right?
21:47
SPEAKER_05: So there's betas right now, and there's one white paper uh that was recently unveiled in in the past, uh very recent past, um, uh, and and that is evolving.
21:58
SPEAKER_05: It's an evolving model because.
22:00
SPEAKER_05: Because it's it's not a standard yet.
22:03
SPEAKER_05: And that standard will take several years to actually be implemented to all of our technology.
22:11
SPEAKER_05: Not only the software, which can be evolved pretty quickly, but the hardware as well.
22:16
SPEAKER_05: Right.
22:17
SPEAKER_05: So the devices that we have, and granted, we evolve our devices relatively quickly by today's standard, right?
22:23
SPEAKER_05: Technology gets old pretty fast.
22:25
SPEAKER_05: So we want to get the latest, you know, phone, laptop, whatever.
22:29
SPEAKER_05: And so once you get that newer one, it will have that other factor, those other factors in there.
22:35
SPEAKER_05: So eventually, when you'll see media in the coming years, years, emphasis on years, probably three to five years to your point, you will see a little icon at the top.
22:47
SPEAKER_05: And you'll it maybe an eye icon.
22:49
SPEAKER_05: And you click on that eye icon and you'll be able to see the provenance of that file of who created it, how it was created it, where it was created, what happened to it in different levels, right?
23:00
SPEAKER_05: So if you're a um forensic scientist that or a forensic investigator trying to figure out is this real or is this fake?
23:07
SPEAKER_05: Is this multiple images combined?
23:09
SPEAKER_05: Was something removed from it?
23:11
SPEAKER_05: Was it simplified?
23:12
SPEAKER_05: Was it uh enhanced, whatever, right?
23:15
SPEAKER_05: Then you can figure out what was done to it to whatever degree you actually care to find out.
23:21
SPEAKER_05: So that's the only way because you can't declare intent and actually believe it, fair, right?
23:26
SPEAKER_05: Because people lie, right?
23:30
SPEAKER_05: So so since people lie, and um you can't actually say, oh, this is only like truthful information.
23:36
SPEAKER_05: It's like, how do you know that?
23:38
SPEAKER_05: That there's no way to actually declare that, officially speaking, right?
23:41
SPEAKER_05: Uh in an authoritative way, regardless of what the source is, because sources can be hacked, right?
23:47
SPEAKER_05: That's a cybersecurity challenge.
23:49
SPEAKER_05: So we already know that that exists and is still very, very prevalent, right?
23:53
SPEAKER_05: So how do you do that?
23:54
SPEAKER_05: Well, you figure out the provenance, and now you'll be able to tell how it was done.
23:58
SPEAKER_05: But this is coming in the next three to five years as a standard.
24:02
SPEAKER_05: For a while, you will not see the difference between what's real and what's not, and that's a little bit scary.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: So we're in that kind of transition point where the societies are outpacing the ability for us as uh for society and yes, corporate uh society, corporate world to be able to really understand whether these things have been tampered with or synthesized or not.
24:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's gonna be enough in this next few years, which is a really critical time.
24:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh starting this year, literally.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: What is it that organizations can do, or what is it that we as a society can do between now and then?
24:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, again, it's it's a it's a process, it's gonna take time, it's gonna take collaboration, standardization.
24:51
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, absolutely.
24:52
SPEAKER_05: So there's there's it'll need standardization, it'll need interoperability, yeah.
24:57
SPEAKER_05: Because uh if you don't, if you're interoperable only on one platform and not the other, you know, that's not true.
25:02
SPEAKER_05: Decentralization, that's not true.
25:04
SPEAKER_05: That's centralization, let's be honest.
25:05
SPEAKER_05: Right, right.
25:06
SPEAKER_05: This is what where where we are with NFTs today, they are actually centralized to the platform that they come off of.
25:12
SPEAKER_05: So they're truly not unique, they're actually centralized to the the the market that they come off of.
25:19
SPEAKER_05: So there that that's not going to work very well, and and and there have to be a big evolution there in the coming uh as soon as the market figures that out.
25:28
SPEAKER_05: So long story short, the the the um the things will change and they they will evolve.
25:33
SPEAKER_05: That the best thing to do is is to understand it by using it, right?
25:38
SPEAKER_05: If you use it and you and whether you're just a consumer at the very beginning, and then eventually you figure out, oh, it would be very helpful if I could if I'm able to do this or very entertaining to do that.
25:49
SPEAKER_05: Let me try this out and use the democratized tools or learn how to code that that that's or or hire some people who know how to do this on a regular basis, right?
25:59
SPEAKER_05: And there's more and more people that are going to be evolving.
26:02
SPEAKER_05: Most of the experts in this have literally done this for one to two years.
26:09
SPEAKER_05: Literally, that's how new it is.
26:11
SPEAKER_05: So the top experts in the world have done this for one to two years, tops.
26:16
SPEAKER_05: So you're on the ground floor right now, and the technology is only getting better, and it's passed the Turing test.
26:22
SPEAKER_05: If you're familiar with that, meaning you can tell whether it's by human or generated by a machine, most of it has passed the Turing test, and it will continue to pass the Turing test, and you won't know the difference because those artifacts that you used to see, the glitches in the video or images will basically vanish if they haven't already.
26:39
SPEAKER_05: Same thing with the audio.
26:41
SPEAKER_02: And for people who may not be familiar with the Turing test, that's simply the ability to determine whether it was a computer or a human.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: And in this case, what we're saying, passing the Turing test means you cannot make that distinction.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: You cannot tell something that was created by a human versus something created by a machine.
26:58
SPEAKER_02: And that is a really, really major, major development.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: I think, I think, you know, it just in indicative of uh the ones that will push the envelope on this whole thing are not only gonna be those that are actually trying to, you know, create uh, you know, like nefarious type of activities, but it's also gonna be those folks that we don't automatically assume, meaning the non-technologists, you know, that are going to be pushing this.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be literally, I think, the artists and the creatives and those that are creating content and those types of folks that don't know that they don't know, but this is now the new medium of creation that they get into.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: And then they have different modalities on where they publish to, right?
27:42
SPEAKER_01: Whether it be you know artificial, you know, reality or whether it be a web or whether it be, you know, whatever, it doesn't matter.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: That's that's kind of what scares me is you get the those folks, and this is how technology's always been you get those folks who will jump into this to push the envelope that have that don't understand or know or care, maybe that's the key word, what technology and how the sausage is made to make this.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: They just want to push the outcome, you know what I mean?
28:11
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
28:12
SPEAKER_05: And while I was writing my book, uh, interestingly enough, everyone I spoke to spoke about ethics.
28:18
SPEAKER_05: It was one of their primary things.
28:20
SPEAKER_05: And granted, these are the non-deep fakers for the most part.
28:23
SPEAKER_05: These are the people who are not making nefarious content, right?
28:26
SPEAKER_05: The nefarious content for the most part is is non-consensual porn.
28:30
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
28:30
SPEAKER_05: Um, it's very, very prevalent.
28:32
SPEAKER_05: Uh, you can imagine what it's done uh and what it looks like.
28:36
SPEAKER_05: Um, it's basically face swapping, you know, celebrities' faces on people doing a variety of activities, which we don't need to go into.
28:43
SPEAKER_05: But that that uh that the beyond the the that uh the the most popular aside from those is artists that are creating videos of celebrities and uh of uh for either political reasons or for for humor, for humor.
29:02
SPEAKER_05: Like, for example, I interviewed the the person who creates the deep tom cruise.
29:07
SPEAKER_05: Deep Tom Cruise is is is a um a well-known series of videos.
29:13
SPEAKER_05: People who know Tom Cruise mistaken the videos for him.
29:16
SPEAKER_05: He never did any of those things.
29:18
SPEAKER_05: They actually what they did is they copied, um, they they basically scraped all of the movie footage and film footage and and uh images of him in every angle of his face with his mouth open or closed or doing whatever, so that they can put and make his face look like he's saying what they want him to say.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: So let me ask you a quick question then on that.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: Where is the line today, and where will it have to be in terms of everything, you know, like if it's on the internet, it's public domain, which is not necessarily the case anymore, right?
29:56
SPEAKER_01: Because I mean, you're a photographer, you've taken pictures of things, people, whatever.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: And now what we're saying is, you know, it's almost like we're gonna have to have devices that have filters in them to say if I take a photo of a person, it automatically blurries my face out because I don't give consent, right?
30:14
SPEAKER_01: So where now where's the line, right?
30:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, in terms of what's what's public domain?
30:19
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so so it it's um it's not public domain if it's on the internet, let's be honest, right?
30:24
SPEAKER_05: Um, you still own the rights if you were the creator of that, unless you gave them away uh in in a some type of contract, whether it's your employer or whatever.
30:34
SPEAKER_05: So um it it's not a matter of rights per se, but it is a matter of consent.
30:40
SPEAKER_05: And um you can do this to anyone, hypothetically speaking.
30:46
SPEAKER_05: However, if you have their consent, they're more like they're less likely to pursue you, right?
30:50
SPEAKER_05: Because you can do this from any country in the world, right?
30:53
SPEAKER_05: So that doesn't mean your the law will extend to that country, right?
30:58
SPEAKER_05: So, but it's preferred that you do it with the person's consent, right?
31:03
SPEAKER_05: Now, of course, if they're a politician and you're trying to do satire or parody, that's different, right?
31:09
SPEAKER_05: Um, because in certain countries that may be protected, and some some countries you might be persecuted, let's be honest.
31:16
SPEAKER_05: Um, even for telling the truth, you might be persecuted.
31:20
SPEAKER_05: And so so that goes into the provenance, right?
31:23
SPEAKER_05: Is how it was created, who's in it, right?
31:25
SPEAKER_05: That kind of stuff, and how authentic it is.
31:28
SPEAKER_05: Because you can there's the um there's the the the option of saying, Oh, that wasn't me, but it's a little too late, and most people won't don't really believe it if you say so.
31:39
SPEAKER_05: You're not gonna care.
31:40
SPEAKER_05: Well, yeah, the liar's dilemma, right?
31:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the the rhetoric of the jury of my peers now is you know, it's it's kind of like when you say a statement or the information is already out there, you know, the people will believe that regardless if there's an objection and the objection is sustained, right?
31:58
SPEAKER_01: So now you've got to you've got to figure out how to, you know, uh, you know, I I this is gonna be really interesting as we go forward because to your point, you know, you you mentioned collaboration.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, right now, you know, we don't have collaboration between hell, between even states, let alone countries.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: So the law varies in what that means.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: And like for instance, um, you know, the gentleman that's sitting over in Russia because of all the WikiLeaks stuff, uh, what does that look like right now with laws that don't transcend countries?
32:31
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
32:32
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: So anyway, go ahead, Henry.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:36
SPEAKER_05: So so it it I don't the the collaboration typically happens in small communities of these people who are doing this kind of stuff.
32:44
SPEAKER_05: And that that example, there's a well-known group called Synthetic Futures that is a collaborative uh group.
32:51
SPEAKER_05: It's free to join.
32:53
SPEAKER_05: They have uh they've had a very nice uh uh virtual conference of people in variety talking about the ethics, talking about the creation, talking about the future, uh talking with the the the um the different entities that are using this today and doing great things with it and amazing things with it, um, and and want to continue.
33:12
SPEAKER_05: And and whether it's social good, whether it's it's a matter of building things as a business.
33:18
SPEAKER_05: So it's a matter of focusing on the positive, yeah, and uh and drowning out the negative, if you will, because the more you create with with it that is in positive nature, yes, the negative will continue to exist just like any technology can be used for the negative.
33:33
SPEAKER_05: The technology is neutral.
33:34
SPEAKER_05: Think about it.
33:35
SPEAKER_05: The technology is neutral.
33:36
SPEAKER_05: It's my intent of how I would decide to use it that matters, right?
33:40
SPEAKER_05: And we can't again declare intent and we can't figure out whether it's trustworthy or not.
33:46
SPEAKER_05: But do we want to be entertained with it?
33:48
SPEAKER_05: Do we want to use it?
33:50
SPEAKER_05: Do we want to watch it?
33:51
SPEAKER_05: Do we want to be experience it?
33:52
SPEAKER_05: Right?
33:53
SPEAKER_05: That's a choice, right?
33:54
SPEAKER_05: It everything that we see on our screens is a choice to consume our attention, right?
34:01
SPEAKER_02: And yes and no, based on based on some of the uh uh triggers and automated reaction.
34:08
SPEAKER_02: Of course.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: I think I think the the the number one thing that scares me the most is that you know what what we saw with a lot of the craziness in our own political pandemic that just happened not too long ago is that a lot of folks were educated by rhetoric that wasn't real.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: That's what scares me, whether it's the political agenda or a pandemic agenda or whatever that that boils down to, or hell, even a um, you know, let's say um a digital attack from another country, right?
34:37
SPEAKER_01: So let's let's be honest, the war layers are different now.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: Yes, is that the folks that aren't educated to know how to get information of authenticity will believe the rhetoric of these people that are pulling this content, but look, right at it, or it was said here, or look at the activities that are going on that have been made up, right?
34:57
SPEAKER_01: That's what's scared.
34:59
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and and so that there are safeguards, right?
35:01
SPEAKER_05: So if you suddenly see a world leader declaring war, right, unless they're a dictator and they have absolute power, realistically speaking, there's another set of bodies that have to agree to that conflict, right?
35:12
SPEAKER_05: Luckily in the United States, we have that, right?
35:15
SPEAKER_05: And other countries have that too, where it's not just one individual declaring war for the sake of argument.
35:20
SPEAKER_05: It's not gonna be just one video.
35:21
SPEAKER_05: The video might be believed to your point, to a degree, but there are safeguards in other sources, more authenticated sources, right, that will say this is fake, this is real, even though some of those have been hacked in the past.
35:33
SPEAKER_05: Just like there was a a uh I think it was a tweet where uh I think it was a uh uh news agency that was hacked saying that the the president had been had been attacked had been attacked and he was injured, etc.
35:47
SPEAKER_05: etc.
35:48
SPEAKER_05: And it was it was a hack by a foreign entity.
35:51
SPEAKER_05: And it was it was believed, of course, because it was on authenticated source.
35:55
SPEAKER_05: Uh I mean social media has to be real, right?
35:58
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
35:59
SPEAKER_02: But by the way, I just thought it I just want to uh remind people uh that we're speaking with uh Henrik DeGure, and uh he is uh author of uh and a book that's going to be released next month called Synthetic Media, the Next Reality.
36:15
SPEAKER_02: Uh and uh he is also a podcaster and consultant.
36:19
SPEAKER_02: I also want to uh uh call out our sponsors, uh, which is uh Simpler Media and CMS Wire, uh the Marketing AI Institute, and of course, Early Information Science, our uh beloved uh organization.
36:32
SPEAKER_02: So just wanted to give that uh background.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: We still have a good bit of time left to continue the discussion.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: So uh one thing I wanted to make sure we we covered is you know what are the commercial applications for Fortune 1000 companies?
36:47
SPEAKER_02: What do they need to think about and what should they be doing today to kind of prepare for this uh future?
36:54
SPEAKER_05: Right.
36:55
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so it's not just a cost savings of not having photo shoots or video shoots uh of of said people doing whatever things.
37:03
SPEAKER_05: So there's right now, today, literally, you can use it for e-learning, for for uh um uh education purposes, whether you're training people it within the company or outside of the organization, uh, corporate communications, uh product demos, whether it's a product or service, right?
37:21
SPEAKER_05: Um the all those can be done synthetically, where there's even before the product exists in physical form, it can be done that way.
37:31
SPEAKER_02: Wait a minute, wait a minute.
37:32
SPEAKER_02: Isn't that how uh tech companies do it anyway?
37:34
SPEAKER_02: Don't they promote the just bring it to the next level, right?
37:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yes, sometimes, yeah.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: So so you can synthesize your customers as well as your demo and your product.
37:48
SPEAKER_05: I think that's been done before too.
37:50
SPEAKER_05: Yes, exactly.
37:51
SPEAKER_05: You can buy as you can buy users, you can buy users now.
37:58
SPEAKER_03: Anyway, an auditor too.
38:01
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
38:03
SPEAKER_05: Right.
38:03
SPEAKER_05: So so, but realistically speaking, um, most of the catalog images that we see, whether they're in physical catalogs or in in virtual catalogs on the web, about 70% of them are actually virtual.
38:16
SPEAKER_05: If you think about it, they're not photo shoots anymore.
38:20
SPEAKER_05: It's easier and better, and the the end results are cleaner and and done faster typically that than uh and and and cheaper, honestly, than a photo shoot or a video shoot.
38:33
SPEAKER_05: Because you can have anything synthesized, whether it exists or not, and assemble it, whether it's a uh a room in an apartment for the sake of argument, or or a product uh that you want to uh you know, a piece of furniture or whatever you want to sell, right?
38:48
SPEAKER_05: Or something on on uh e-commerce site, for example.
38:51
SPEAKER_05: All those things you can you can have every single angle you want on a 360 uh virtual um uh uh item of something and and see every angle of it and and it in use, right?
39:05
SPEAKER_05: So it's it's just a matter of having a synthetic version, synthesized version of it, right?
39:10
SPEAKER_05: Which you likely will because things are born digital before they're born physically nowadays, right?
39:15
SPEAKER_05: Uh for the most part, and have that available in synthetic form.
39:21
SPEAKER_05: So you can synthesize your executives so that they can give talks across the world if they want to.
39:28
SPEAKER_05: They can give speeches, you can have them have the QA prior to and have the synthesized answers already done, not by the the executive or or any personality um literally saying it, but by synthesizing your voice in in a couple hours, you can synthesize someone's voice, but not by saying a script necessarily of the of what you actually want them to say, what you want them to say, but how they say things.
39:54
SPEAKER_05: That's how you synthesize someone's voice, right?
39:56
SPEAKER_05: And then you uh with a little bit more effort, you can synthesize right uh your torso or your entire body for a variety of reasons, whether you're a model on a runway.
40:06
SPEAKER_05: So imagine licensing.
40:07
SPEAKER_05: So if you're a well-known model, you can synthesize your body and have it on a virtual tour, right?
40:15
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, wearing any clothing that is available to your size or made to your size synthetically, right?
40:21
SPEAKER_02: And and it's no, no, it's just I was just going to say, I think all this makes sense, you know.
40:28
SPEAKER_02: So for uh for uh Fortune 1000 companies that are you know doing production of of media, uh there may be some flexibility, but I think wouldn't a wouldn't it be higher on their agenda or their prioritization to be concerned about the threats to the brand or their threats to security?
40:52
SPEAKER_02: And again, what you know, it's a double-edged sword, as we say, right?
40:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and are they going to be making investments in in uh uh synthetic media when a lot of what they do, unless they create tons of media, and that's their primary, you know, uh value proposition, unless they are a media company specifically.
41:12
SPEAKER_02: But if they're a financial institution or a manufacturer, something like that, are there things they need to be concerned about with regard to synthetic media that could be a threat in some way or a risk in some way?
41:23
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and it goes back to authenticity and and and consents and and understanding sources, right?
41:29
SPEAKER_05: And understanding uh the provenance of files, right?
41:32
SPEAKER_05: So so that once you understand that, and most people don't because they haven't gone down that that that rabbit hole, right?
41:39
SPEAKER_05: So without using it, you're not gonna understand it.
41:42
SPEAKER_05: If you just read my book or listen to my podcast, you'll get a glimpse, right?
41:46
SPEAKER_05: But until you actually use it and experience it, right?
41:50
SPEAKER_05: Until you experience V VR, until you experience AR, uh augmented reality, virtual reality, mixed reality.
41:57
SPEAKER_05: You're not gonna understand what it's for, right?
42:00
SPEAKER_05: You're not gonna understand its usefulness or its entertainment value.
42:03
SPEAKER_05: So they need to make the investigation, they need to invest in yes, a pilot project at the very minimum, right?
42:09
SPEAKER_05: Um, potentially hiring whether contractors or employees to do this, right?
42:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I mean are there tools that are out there that you recommend that they would start with, or where would they be?
42:18
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, there are many tools.
42:20
SPEAKER_05: A lot of them, interestingly enough, are are from startups.
42:23
SPEAKER_05: Um, and they're getting millions of dollars in in backing.
42:26
SPEAKER_05: Uh, because it it they make it really, really simple to have to pick an avatar, literally within a few minutes, type in the script of what that you want them to say, and they say it perfectly and it outputs a video.
42:36
SPEAKER_05: Now, in that scenario, the democratized simple scenario that I just explained to you, you pick everything, right?
42:43
SPEAKER_05: You pick the avatar, you have consent to use it for XYZ reasons because you paid for it or subscription to it or whatever, or per video.
42:52
SPEAKER_05: And and potentially eventually you will you will be licensing other personalities, other other uh likenesses of individuals, right?
42:59
SPEAKER_05: Right, whether it's yourself that you can license out or others.
43:03
SPEAKER_05: But realistically speaking, all of that is is democratized and simple to use, right?
43:08
SPEAKER_05: So it's available to anyone who wants to use it.
43:11
SPEAKER_05: And that can be done, and you're seeing them on a variety of social media platforms where you see that that the sim similar uh personalities saying different things.
43:20
SPEAKER_05: Uh, but the uh the availability of that is how you use it, right?
43:25
SPEAKER_05: And the granted, they're because they're so simple to use, there is content moderation.
43:31
SPEAKER_05: So they already have terms for service where you're not allowed to use you know bullying language for the sake of argument or insulting stuff.
43:39
SPEAKER_05: You're not allowed to to do explicit uh uh a variety of things, uh explicit nature, because it what we know that it's too easy to do.
43:50
SPEAKER_05: And realistically speaking, you have to be an adult to use it, in all fairness for now, because of the potential graphic nature, the potential experience, because you know, VR and AR.
44:00
SPEAKER_05: Are sometimes very, very immersive.
44:04
SPEAKER_05: And it may be confusing or shocking or even traumatic to individuals if they're not ready to experience that.
44:12
SPEAKER_05: And so it's a matter of experiencing what you want to experience.
44:15
SPEAKER_05: What doesn't exist yet is uh, you know, like on film and music, you can see maturity ratings, right?
44:22
SPEAKER_05: This content has this kind of material, it's it has no violence, it has this explicit uh language, whatever.
44:28
SPEAKER_05: We don't have that yet for for any of that.
44:30
SPEAKER_05: We're we're just getting into the provenance right now.
44:32
SPEAKER_05: Um, and and that that eventually may come out because eventually kids will want to use this too.
44:38
SPEAKER_05: Because right now, one of the most entertaining things is the most popular games that you can think of are going to use synthetic media now because it's easier and faster to get literally photorealistic uh uh avatars of the most popular soccer players or the most popular players that exist today.
44:58
SPEAKER_05: So if you want a photorealistic version of playing with said person, said said uh personality, celebrity, whatever player, that that is there's a there's a synthetic version of him in the game, and there's a there's a reality version of him um in on on television, right?
45:14
SPEAKER_05: And though those lines will blur because you can play with them and they'll play their their super special uh you know moves, and and you'll you'll see and you'll you'll experience it even better because you can have a one-on-one dialogue with individuals that you would probably never be able to because that they don't have enough time in the day.
45:34
SPEAKER_05: So on a platform like OpenAI, you can have discussions, for example, with Elon Musk.
45:41
SPEAKER_05: Literally an intelligent conversation with him.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: I think that the other the inverse of that is synthetic Elon.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: Synthetic Elon Musk the other the other inverse of that is gonna be folks that want to um put their face on those other entities to actually claim the activity or claim the content or claim the whatever because look, it's my face sitting on, you know, um you name the the athlete or the event, and look, I was there, right?
46:13
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
46:13
SPEAKER_01: And those kind of pieces.
46:14
SPEAKER_01: I think you know, there's the one the one cool thing too that at least we have right now is and this is gonna be super fun, is to use um AI to battle AI in the form of let's say content moderation, where I can actually look at you know, train and tune models of imagery or content or faces, you know, that are famous and block content out, right?
46:37
SPEAKER_01: So for this, you know, we do we we've you know been doing this for the last couple of years where, you know, to your point, you know, content moderation in text or in imagery can be blocked out, grayed out, or pulled out of the frame, you know, or some activity is taken, whether video is dropped or whatever, because there's you know, let's say that Seth's uh you know, gecko in the background is offensive, right?
46:59
SPEAKER_01: And so we blur that out, you know what I mean?
47:02
SPEAKER_01: And so at least we have those kind of safeguards now for let's say real media.
47:09
SPEAKER_01: We'll say it's real media, because just so you know, this podcast is 100% fake, you know, by all of us who are all actually fake entities.
47:15
SPEAKER_02: We're not, we're synthesized.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: We've trained these models, yeah.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: I know.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I should have trained mine to be very, but um, you get the point.
47:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's there's actually going to be AI to say, listen, you know, we the and it's not it's the intent, it's not the technology that will care either way, but I'll be able to say, Oh, listen, anything published, I'm gonna do content moderation on it anyway.
47:39
SPEAKER_05: It's a matter of established ethics and that content moderation, especially if it's a democratized tool that's really simple to use.
47:44
SPEAKER_05: It's a lot harder when you're literally developing the code, which is still evolving, quite literally.
47:49
SPEAKER_05: Like there's new tools and and it new iterations of it and new versions of it that's coming out all the time, where you can literally do anything you want, right?
47:56
SPEAKER_05: Quite literally.
47:57
SPEAKER_05: You can paint a room with a with uh uh uh art on every single you know wall and floor, and it can be moving.
48:05
SPEAKER_05: So so so so so artists are are having a ball with this because there's literally no limits.
48:12
SPEAKER_05: Um, and and what I go into my book uh is is uh that the all the different use cases that that we know of so far, right?
48:19
SPEAKER_05: And those are probably real the equivalent of the phone book, if you think about it today for what we're calling web 3.0.
48:27
SPEAKER_05: Um, because we're thinking of things that we could do with the last version of web 2.0, right?
48:34
SPEAKER_05: So we're just iterating that in potentially more dimensions, but you know, 3D, and we haven't figured out how to do the Princess Leia projection yet, right?
48:43
SPEAKER_05: Uh uh without a stupid amount of equipment in our room, right?
48:47
SPEAKER_05: We haven't figured out how to do 3D anything uh beyond 2D, you know, projection.
48:54
SPEAKER_05: Um, so so that that that is gonna evolve quite rapidly in the coming years.
49:00
SPEAKER_05: And and what's gonna be more exciting is we're gonna add more dimensions, not just uh augmenting and uh augmented reality, mixed reality, and virtual reality, but we're also gonna be able to add not only things that we can hear and see, but also touch as far as haptics are concerned, meaning you'll be able to feel an object.
49:21
SPEAKER_05: So when you go, and this is even popular in and growing in popularity at um senior centers, where they bring a set of VR headsets to seniors so that the residents can put on a uh and and go visit Rome.
49:36
SPEAKER_05: And the you you pick what era would you like to visit Rome?
49:39
SPEAKER_05: 1950, uh two years ago, uh, or in Caesar's age.
49:45
SPEAKER_05: And then you can walk around with you know the Romans in togas and see the market, right?
49:50
SPEAKER_05: Uh next to the forum, which is still active, right?
49:53
SPEAKER_05: Or you can travel, you can go travel and you can go swim with the whales and you know said islands.
49:59
SPEAKER_05: And as you swim with the whales, it passes you by, and with your haptic glove, it'll give you the sensation of the smoothness of the whale while it's passing you by.
50:08
SPEAKER_02: All right.
50:09
SPEAKER_02: I was just gonna ask you about haptics.
50:11
SPEAKER_02: We only have a few minutes left, and again Henrik uh Geyer, who is uh uh author of a book coming out uh uh next month called Synthetic Media, The Next Reality.
50:24
SPEAKER_02: And that's uh going to be released on February 2nd.
50:26
SPEAKER_02: Uh that's also in the show notes.
50:28
SPEAKER_02: Uh, do you want to thank again our sponsors, uh CMS Wire and Simpler Media, the Marketing AI Institute, and uh Early Information Science?
50:37
SPEAKER_02: And you can see Henrik's uh podcast in the show notes as well.
50:41
SPEAKER_02: Excuse me.
50:42
SPEAKER_02: And um, so it so finishing up with haptics again, anything else you want to because that was one of the topics you wanted to hit.
50:49
SPEAKER_02: That was a fascinating example.
50:51
SPEAKER_02: Anything else you want to hit on haptics?
50:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, let me ask you a quick question, Henrik, close.
50:55
SPEAKER_01: Is haptics gonna be just because we talk about fourth dimension type stuff, right?
50:59
SPEAKER_01: Is haptics just in touch, or is it gonna be across multiple senses, right?
51:04
SPEAKER_01: That's what people want to understand.
51:06
SPEAKER_05: Yep.
51:06
SPEAKER_05: So so I spoke to several experts who've been working on on the other senses for the last 20 years and have actually made both chemically and electronically synthetic taste and synthetic smell.
51:20
SPEAKER_05: Examples of it, working examples.
51:22
SPEAKER_05: So you can please.
51:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, no, no, no.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: I want to like let's let's continue a little bit further because I want to I want to help people understand what that means by the difference between the two and what the implications are.
51:34
SPEAKER_01: So go, you know, take a little bit of break and do that.
51:36
SPEAKER_01: That'd be awesome.
51:36
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, absolutely.
51:37
SPEAKER_05: So so so um one of the experts that I I talked to, um, he was tapped by a Michelin uh chef who wanted to knew that he only had so many tabletops and he had only so many reservations he could take per year.
51:49
SPEAKER_05: So he wanted to uh have other people experience his food, either smell it or taste it.
51:55
SPEAKER_05: So they did it uh with um with odorance with that you could plug into your to the bottom of your phone and with the app you could trigger it and have that sense or that that that taste of a specific dish that he made.
52:08
SPEAKER_05: So you could have reservations for the next decade if necessary, right?
52:13
SPEAKER_05: Because, like, wow, you mix these things together and they taste like this, and you can experience the taste.
52:18
SPEAKER_05: You can't chew it because synthetic taste, synthetic chewing, that's a little bit more complicated.
52:22
SPEAKER_05: Let's be honest.
52:23
SPEAKER_02: That's that's haptics, right?
52:25
SPEAKER_05: It will be a future iteration, yeah.
52:27
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, but let's continue dreaming for now.
52:30
SPEAKER_05: But uh so far, it's literally sensors that you put on your tongue, like a film that you put on your tongue, or a uh a small probe that you put up your nose to this area in your nose.
52:43
SPEAKER_05: And and it it there's electronic uh uh um uh signals that are sent to those glands, to those olfactory glands in the contia, that actually at certain frequencies, it doesn't it doesn't uh uh burn, but it actually gives you the sensation of citrus, of of sourness, of sweetness, etc.
53:06
SPEAKER_05: Right.
53:07
SPEAKER_05: And so you can imagine the mixing of that.
53:09
SPEAKER_05: So whether you taste it or you smell it, right?
53:12
SPEAKER_05: And granted, you know, eating is is both of those, along with chewing and and sensing that that that texture, uh, you can get at least two of those three in the coming future.
53:23
SPEAKER_05: There's still a lot to to overcome on though, and it's still under development, it hasn't been commercialized, but it's out there and it's available, and it will be the future of of more dimensions, more realities that we can mix, even things that don't exist anymore or don't exist yet, which is gonna be really, really amazing.
53:42
SPEAKER_05: So we're just at the the forefront of it, and there's a lot to to digest there and a lot of possibilities.
53:48
SPEAKER_02: It's amazing when you think about where we'll be in five years, in 10 years, in 20 years, it's just going to be a very, very, very different world.
53:57
SPEAKER_02: We could imagine these magical devices, you know, 15 years ago.
54:02
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
54:03
SPEAKER_01: At some point, we're just gonna be plugged into the matrix, right?
54:06
SPEAKER_01: That's what I mean.
54:07
SPEAKER_02: You know, science with the science fiction is is a precursor to you know, and if it's not physically impossible, it's possible, right?
54:19
SPEAKER_02: If it's not and and what we define as physically possible today, uh may not be the same in the future because there was these were a physical impossibility.
54:28
SPEAKER_02: Video, uh uh, you know, streaming video was a physical impossibility 20 years ago, you know.
54:33
SPEAKER_02: So because of the the the mindset and the way we leverage technologies, and so um there's a lot, a lot ahead of us, and uh some very interesting things.
54:43
SPEAKER_02: It's a fascinating topic.
54:45
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for being with us today.
54:48
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, Henrik, it's a pleasure, my friend.
54:50
SPEAKER_01: Really, really interesting topic.
54:52
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for uh entertaining.
54:54
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
54:55
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
54:56
SPEAKER_02: Definitely uh grab you again, you know, in the future to just kind of get an update on where things are going because uh changing uh future.
55:06
SPEAKER_02: And again, check out the book uh and the podcast.
55:09
SPEAKER_02: Uh that those are in the show notes.
55:11
SPEAKER_02: Again, it's uh synthetic media.
55:12
SPEAKER_02: The next uh will be available on Amazon.
55:15
SPEAKER_02: You'll see the link in the show notes.
55:17
SPEAKER_02: Uh that will be uh released on February 2nd.
55:19
SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to read that.
55:21
SPEAKER_02: And again, thank you, Sharon, for your uh production uh behind the scenes, as always.
55:27
SPEAKER_02: It's been great.
55:28
SPEAKER_02: And uh this has just been a pleasure.
55:30
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Chris.
55:31
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, everyone.
55:32
SPEAKER_02: Thanks to those out there listening.
55:35
SPEAKER_05: Take care.
55:35
SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
55:36
SPEAKER_01: Have a good week.
55:36
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, guys.
55:41
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to the Early AI Podcast with your hosts Seth Early and Chris Featherstone.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: We hope you enjoyed the program and took away some ideas that you can start to implement in your organization right now.
55:53
SPEAKER_00: If you're stuck and need help, check out www.early.com for information about early information science consulting services.
56:02
SPEAKER_00: And of course, check the show notes for links to any resources we mentioned today.
56:06
SPEAKER_00: That's all for now.
56:07
SPEAKER_00: See you next time.