Latest / Virtuous Leaders with Dr. Johann D'Souza / Ep.10 - Stephanie Winn, Protecting Children from Trans Activists

Transcript

Ep.10 - Stephanie Winn, Protecting Children from Trans Activists · Virtuous Leaders with Dr. Johann D'Souza

0:00
Hey, Stephanie, Thanks so much for joining today.
0:03
Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
0:06
Can we just start with a little intro on your part of what your
0:10
background is, what you're doing now?
0:13
Sure. It's Stephanie Wynn, licensed
0:14
marriage and family therapist. I've been in the mental health
0:17
field for 10 years, and for most of that I was just a therapist
0:23
doing, you know, sort of the typical career route for a lot
0:25
of therapists working in agencies with.
0:28
More sort of high acuity populations than working with a
0:31
more kind of general population, Anxiety, depression and
0:33
relationship issues. And and then everything started
0:38
to change around 2020, the moment I learned about D
0:42
transitioners and also had some of my long held beliefs
0:46
challenged by events in the culture.
0:51
And in 2021 is when I. Started having a more public
0:55
presence through Twitter Now X and blogging and launching my
0:59
podcast, which is called You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist,
1:01
which launched in 2022. And my sort of claim to fame is
1:06
that I'm one of those rare therapists that's willing to put
1:10
their neck out there and say, hey, what we're doing is wrong
1:13
when it comes to trans and kids. And this whole idea of gender
1:16
affirming care is not evidence based, is not based on sound
1:20
psychological principles, and is actively harming people.
1:23
And you know, I was one of those people.
1:24
I was very progressive and open minded.
1:26
So when I was first taught about this idea of trans kids, I I
1:31
believed that it must have rested on an evidence base and I
1:33
was open to it and and working in that affirmation model for a
1:38
few years just. Noticing though, in the back of
1:41
my mind that there was something that felt not right about it, I
1:44
was seeing that, you know, these were neurodivergent young people
1:47
with a lot of trauma, with same sex attraction that they hadn't
1:50
explored all the sort of issues that gender critical people have
1:53
known for a while. So anyway, my my claim to fame
1:57
is that I sort of, you know, got a lot of attention when I came
2:00
out for that, both positive and negative.
2:01
I had complaints made against my license, which I talked about in
2:05
in episode 11 of my podcast with Helen Joyce.
2:08
And since then, I have had the fortune of connecting with a lot
2:11
of incredible people. I became part of a documentary,
2:14
no way back the reality of gender affirming care.
2:17
So it's a real honor to be featured in that documentary and
2:20
to be able to represent that film to so many wonderful
2:23
people. I've also gotten involved with
2:26
medical ethics organizations, and so gender related issues in
2:31
the medical, in the mental health field, as well as medical
2:34
ethics in general have been a big focus on my podcast.
2:36
I've talked to a lot of D transitioners.
2:39
And our duty parents, but I like to talk about other issues as
2:43
well. But it's funny, once you start
2:45
talking about such hot button issues, there are a lot of
2:47
people who just won't talk to you about other things because
2:50
they're afraid of being associated with you.
2:51
So I've ended up kind of pigeonholed in that world.
2:55
I really admire the work that you've done and you are doing.
2:58
I congratulate you with that. And part of the reason I'm
3:02
bringing you on is just to show that story of someone who can
3:06
stand up and witness to the truth.
3:09
I'm really interested in your personal experience of being
3:13
someone who was coming in very open minded on this issue.
3:18
Can you talk a little bit about how exactly you came to change
3:23
your opinion? Yeah, well, I think I sort of
3:26
prided myself on being one of the more progressive individuals
3:31
within the fairly mainstream. Company that I worked for as a
3:36
mental health therapist. It became sort of my niche, and
3:41
there was even a point during my work there where a colleague who
3:44
specialized in polyamory and kink and trans and all the sort
3:51
of fringe populations decided to hand off like half her caseload
3:55
to me when she left the company. So there was sort of this, you
3:59
know, combination of what I was attracting and what was being
4:02
projected onto me that I ended up working with.
4:04
You know, sort of fringe and and marginal populations.
4:08
I believe it was 2017 that I went to the training that was
4:12
recommended by the company. And and this is a bizarre thing
4:15
because the company I worked for was not particularly
4:18
progressive. I feel like their underlying MO
4:21
was like, let's make money and not get sued.
4:24
Let's work with all the insurance companies.
4:26
Let's become a reliable referral for doctors who are looking to
4:30
refer their patients. Let's do everything by the books
4:33
and be. Be trustworthy.
4:35
You know very middle of the road company.
4:37
And so when they put on a training in gender affirming
4:40
care, looking back it's kind of a little bewildering.
4:44
But you assume that these are credible teachers.
4:46
You know you have professionals standing up in front of 150
4:50
masters level clinicians teaching us this is a new
4:53
standard of care and and it has this supposed you know, research
4:57
base, but you know we are being taught the lines of.
5:00
That you should say to parents under certain circumstances,
5:03
would you rather have a dead daughter or a live son?
5:05
And you know that if you don't block, you know, we were being
5:09
given the whole rationale for why.
5:12
Supposedly the best course of action is to identify these
5:16
supposedly trans kids early on, prevent them from going through
5:20
the so-called wrong sex puberty, which is supposedly traumatic,
5:24
you know, and all of that kind of stuff.
5:26
And you know I think some questions were raised but I
5:29
think there was kind of a chilling effect in the room.
5:34
And so the way I took it at first was like I just wanted to,
5:37
I I wanted to prove that I was a reliable, competent, open minded
5:41
clinician. And the fact that trans non
5:44
binary and all that was being lumped in with the LGB, well I,
5:47
you know, I wanted to be supportive of my gay clients,
5:50
right. So there was really no sense at
5:53
first of the. The seriousness of the issue and
5:58
the the actual lack of the evidence base for making major
6:02
medical decisions. And so like I said, you know,
6:06
from about 2017 to 2020 I worked with.
6:11
A variety of people but including trans identified
6:14
people and and at various stages in their transitions too.
6:18
Now I'm thankful that I never went on to the next level
6:20
training. There was a pressure to go to
6:21
the next level training where they taught you how to write
6:23
those W path letters. You know according to the W path
6:27
standards of care 7. This client meets criteria for
6:30
blah de blah and I recommend this surgery and this lot.
6:33
Like at the time, I felt like I should go.
6:36
But in retro and and I thought that it was some kind of
6:39
laziness or moral failing on my part that I didn't go and I look
6:42
back and it was and I was feeling resistance because there
6:44
was something that felt wrong about putting myself in a
6:47
position as a therapist, somebody whose job is to work
6:50
with the mind that I was putting myself in a position to actually
6:53
recommend someone work with a medical procedure that's life
6:56
altering. So I didn't do that.
6:57
I didn't write those letters, thank thank goodness.
7:02
But you know, in that position, I did get to witness.
7:06
You name it, you know the the girl with a terrible trauma
7:10
history who suddenly decides she's a boy.
7:14
The girl who seems shy and awkward and autistic, who's been
7:18
bullied and neglected, who suddenly decides she's a boy.
7:21
And you know, all all the trends that we've been talking about in
7:24
the gender critical community. But it really wasn't until I
7:27
actually heard about D Transitioners, and that was a
7:30
pivotal moment to me. And that's where.
7:33
It baffles me that other people don't always have the same
7:35
reaction I did because for me it was like the moment I learned
7:38
that there is this population of people who have been through
7:42
that and regretted it, I felt very curious and concerned and
7:47
like I had a moral obligation. To learn about the issue.
7:50
So I did a deep dive and I think what really shocks me is that
7:52
there are therapists who don't have that reaction.
7:55
Like how could you not? I think that's, yeah, that's
7:58
sort of a point of division within our community.
8:01
So, you know, as soon as I started learning about D
8:03
transitioners in 2020, I wanted to learn their stories and and I
8:06
became horrified that my field has anything to do with with
8:11
this. And so that was really the
8:15
turning point for me. I was learning about D
8:18
transitioners, and at the time I didn't know any other therapist
8:20
talking about it. I mean, even up to the point
8:22
where I was getting ready to release my own podcast.
8:26
I hadn't even heard at that point about Gen.
8:28
SPAC or Gender, a Wider lens podcast I'd I did not know other
8:32
therapists talking about this issue.
8:34
I was just a therapist whose view of other therapists was
8:38
influenced by. The Portland community and by
8:43
woke Facebook groups, which were that was that was another thing
8:47
that kind of piqued me. It was like seeing how
8:50
therapists were treating other therapists in these groups.
8:52
They had just been completely taken over by social justice
8:55
warrior bullies and become toxic and unproductive.
9:00
Yeah, it really wasn't until I launched my podcast that I even
9:04
started to meet other therapists who shared my concerns.
9:06
So have you had any success with convincing other people of your
9:10
point of view of other therapists, and if so, how do
9:14
you do that? Well, that's a good question.
9:18
And you're talking about like through one-on-one conversation.
9:21
You know, I never know how my work is going to influence
9:24
people. I've certainly had people tell
9:26
me that my work has been influential because I've
9:28
listened to my podcast or read my blog, things like that in
9:32
terms of one-on-one conversations with people.
9:36
Have I, have I taken anyone who is like a true believer and had
9:42
them walk away a a turf? I don't.
9:46
I don't know that I have. I know that I've had various
9:49
interactions where I've sort of like tested the waters with
9:51
someone, you know, throwing out a term here or you know
9:56
something there and then and then they start to open up to
9:58
you that they have concerns and I think for some of those
10:02
people. You know, who are very careful
10:05
how they express their concerns. You know, they're like by all
10:07
means everyone should be free to be who they are.
10:09
I'm not telling anyone you know, not to be who they are.
10:13
But isn't it kind of crazy that we're like giving people these
10:16
life altering drugs before their brains are fully matured?
10:18
You know, like I think I've I've created space for people to say
10:22
those things out loud who maybe aren't accustomed to saying them
10:25
out loud and who knows where they've gone after those
10:28
conversations. Maybe it's empowered them to do
10:30
more research or look at other sources.
10:33
I I do however work a lot with people who come to me, whether
10:38
it's counselling clients or coaching clients who want help
10:41
with their self-expression. So there's kind of that you
10:44
know, that ripple effect of of the work of helping other people
10:48
figure out how to find their voices with their loved ones.
10:50
I will say on a more personal note, I think my mom has been
10:54
inflected by me on this issue because my mom's a lifelong
10:57
Democrat and and she's elderly and you know how it is with.
11:01
You know, 80 something Democrats, right?
11:03
They they don't understand how much their party has changed.
11:07
So I don't know that my mom would understand this issue if
11:11
she weren't my mom and therefore interested in listening to my
11:14
podcast. So at least my mom's listening.
11:17
Yeah, I don't know. If there's anyone else who feels
11:19
like I've changed their mind on this, please feel free to reach
11:21
out. So in the process of speaking,
11:27
your mind witnessing to the truth, what was it just like an
11:30
on, off switch that you just woke up one day and you said,
11:32
OK, I'm going to go for it? Or was it a gradual process of
11:36
overcoming fear? You know, growing in courage,
11:40
think reflecting on what are they going to be, the
11:42
professional implications of each step, and then how to
11:45
navigate that? Help help us understand that
11:48
process. Definitely more of a a gradual
11:50
process for sure. I mean, I'd say the the inner
11:55
shift in terms of my own beliefs on the subject.
11:58
Were a more dramatic like, oh, something's not right here, but
12:02
the process of testing the waters of expressing myself,
12:06
which by the way, I mean, we're talking mostly online, right?
12:08
We're talking like, you know, shifting from, you know, being
12:13
an awoke Facebook group for therapists to saying things to
12:17
eventually being kicked out of that group to joining Twitter
12:20
and having 100 followers and then 1000 and then 10,000 and,
12:24
you know, I think. As I was launching my podcast
12:26
too I was really just kind of experimenting with expression
12:29
which is something that I recommend to people who turn to
12:32
me for help expressing themselves.
12:33
And. And I think part of the problem
12:35
is that one analogy I've used is like the sandbox versus the
12:41
racetrack. The sandbox is a place where you
12:43
can play when you're in preschool, right?
12:45
And and the worst thing that can happen from your experimentation
12:48
is someone gets sand in their eye and cries or someone gets a
12:51
toy stolen that they were hoping to play with like no big deal,
12:54
right? And we all need our figurative
12:58
sandboxes in life to learn new things.
13:02
Because when you're learning new things, you are sloppy,
13:04
uncoordinated, and unskilled. And the best lives are, you
13:09
know, full of lifelong learning processes where you've
13:11
established your skill set in some areas but you're still
13:14
growing in others. Now the racetrack, that's the
13:16
performance zone, right? That's where you have practiced
13:19
your skills. Now you have to put them to the
13:21
test. The stakes are on.
13:23
Excuse me? The pressure's on and the stakes
13:24
are high. And so most of us in our adult
13:28
lives feel like a lot of things are a race track, right?
13:30
You you have to have already mastered certain skills because
13:33
you need them to function. You don't have a lot of room to
13:35
be messy. But when it comes to expressing
13:38
yourself in new ways, you need some of the freedom of the
13:41
sandbox. You need the stakes to be lower.
13:44
So that's, I would say, one of the tools that I talk about when
13:47
helping other people find their voice.
13:48
And so for me, I think I've I've.
13:53
I've been somewhere in between like sandbox mode and racetrack
13:56
mode in terms of, you know, dipping my toes and testing the
14:00
waters, trying little things, feeling emboldened here, having
14:04
repercussions there. I've.
14:05
I wouldn't say that I repeat all the same choices that I've made
14:08
in risking self-expression because it's certainly come at a
14:12
cost to my stress and and health to my work life balance.
14:19
But I I think, you know, if you go back and listen to like early
14:21
episodes, my podcast, I was stepping a lot more gingerly.
14:24
I was imagining that I was speaking to an audience full of
14:28
people who were, you know, some of them probably just as woke as
14:33
the people I was accustomed to. So I was very careful and, you
14:37
know, for example, like in my first five episodes, asking
14:40
Colin Wright. So is it possible for humans to
14:43
change sex? Is it you know or like you know?
14:49
Putting myself out on a limb at the time in episode 3, talking
14:52
to an ROGD mom, saying I'm just going to put this out there and
14:55
people can call me what they want, but I think it's a better
14:59
life outcome to accept your body and leave it intact than to
15:04
permanently alter it. There I said it.
15:06
Come at me. You know, like I remember kind
15:08
of being like that when I first started expressing myself, and
15:11
now that I have a certain. Following and a large block list
15:16
as well, and have been through the ringer.
15:18
I think I'm a lot more comfortable expressing myself.
15:21
It just takes practice. Well, actually you express
15:25
yourself very well. Thank you.
15:28
So another dilemma I'm facing is that I would say I would put
15:31
myself in the category of where you were initially of trying to
15:36
play in the sandbox, maybe take yeah, it's a few a few steps out
15:41
on the racetrack taking maybe a practice run or something.
15:44
Although you know with the Internet it seems like
15:46
everything's at racetrack because once it's out there,
15:49
it's out there. But the the dilemma I'm
15:52
navigating is I don't. I mean, I think that every human
15:58
has an obligation to speak the truth and strive for a good.
16:04
But I don't want, I don't want to do it out of just a desire
16:08
for personal notoriety or fame. And I can see that as being a
16:13
possible temptation in my attempts to speak the truth.
16:19
How do you? Is that thought occurred to you?
16:20
If so, how do you navigate that? Well, I think you have to go
16:23
through your own, like, initiation with fame.
16:30
I I mean, that's a strange way of saying it, but that's the way
16:32
it's coming to my mind right now because I'm grappling with my
16:35
own relationship with Fame. And I just within the last
16:40
couple months have gotten to a point where I'm like, I do not
16:43
want to grow anymore. Like I have been on a trajectory
16:48
of trying to grow my podcast and my my general work so that I
16:54
have. Multiple income streams.
16:57
And partly that's a security issue because ever since I came
17:00
into the limelight, I've felt that my license is at risk.
17:03
So there's partly like I need to survive, so I need to make sure
17:07
I have a backup plan. So if I'm not able to practice
17:09
therapy anymore, I would like to be well known enough that
17:14
coaching clients are going to find me and they're going to
17:17
want to talk to me and they don't care if I've lost my
17:19
license because they know what I'm about.
17:21
Or, you know, the fact that this work is so labor intensive and
17:24
so emotionally taxing, plus I have a chronic illness.
17:27
It's like there is certainly a motivation to have enough of a
17:31
reach that there can be multiple income streams.
17:35
But what I've realized through my own process is that.
17:42
If you're going to be famous, it's much better to be rich.
17:45
And if like like you need to be wealthy, level famous to be able
17:50
to pay for the support structures.
17:54
But I think I I think I just had to go through my own learning
17:57
process and and that doesn't directly answer your question
18:00
because what you're talking about is more motivational.
18:03
It's more like what is driving the desire to be seen, right?
18:10
You know, for me, I think, yeah, there's always that element of
18:15
ego in it. But I think that that doesn't
18:18
have to be at odds with one's altruism in the sense that for
18:22
me, I feel like compelled to speak by something internal.
18:28
And and I've even debated this with somebody who challenged me
18:33
very rudely. But I took her up on a debate on
18:35
Heterodox podcast. That, you know, I think there's
18:40
even an argument to be made that for those of us who are
18:46
intellectually driven or who have a creative streak or who
18:51
have just very active minds, that it's better to have an
18:56
outlet than to just be therapists.
19:01
Because we don't want to take it out on our clients.
19:03
Like, you know, I mean, some people would say that.
19:07
If you're a therapist, you should only be a therapist
19:09
because if your clients see you expressing yourself in a certain
19:13
way could do harm to them in whatever context.
19:15
And there's certainly a case to be made there and the
19:17
conversation to be had. But I think the other side of
19:19
the story is that knowing myself and just the way that I am and
19:23
how, like intellectually driven I am and what I like just kind
19:26
of creative type of person I am if I don't have an outlet where
19:31
I'm just free to explore ideas and challenge people's ideas.
19:36
And you know, if I don't have that outlet, the risk is that it
19:41
plays out through the counter transference and I take things
19:44
out on my clients that really aren't appropriate for them.
19:47
So I think there's a case to be made as well as a therapist for
19:52
living a full life and pursuing self actualization because
19:56
otherwise we're at risk of sort of the same thing that, well,
20:00
you know, that kind of cliche about.
20:02
Teachers where it's something like those who know how to do
20:05
things do them. Those who don't teach like,
20:08
right. Sort of putting down teachers
20:10
that. It's not an exact analogy, but I
20:14
think therapists, depending on your your leaning, you know,
20:20
there are certain schools of thought that place a lot of
20:23
emphasis on the fulfilment of human potential.
20:27
Like, you know, Maslad's hierarchy of needs, Adler like
20:34
Rogerian, right. And so I think there's sort of a
20:39
case to be made too that the best therapists are those who
20:43
have also, independently of their therapeutic work, pursued
20:46
their self actualization, which doesn't mean that therapeutic
20:50
work can't also be a part of that.
20:51
It could be that, like, who you are at your core is somebody who
20:56
is very gifted as a therapist. But anyway, I don't know if that
21:00
answers your question. I think it's it's easy though, I
21:04
think for therapists to become almost like too self
21:06
scrutinizing to the point of, you know, an emphasis on moral
21:12
purity that doesn't really necessarily serve anyone.
21:15
And another thing I will say, just to play devil's advocate,
21:18
is that it's OK to have shadow motivations.
21:24
And by that I mean, like, it's OK.
21:28
So let's say that there's like a habit that you want to quit,
21:31
right? We all have bad habits.
21:33
Some of them are more destructive than others.
21:37
Now, it would be nice if the idea of I'd like to be a better
21:40
person, a you know, a better parent or more physically fit
21:44
or, you know, whatever. I'd like to be better if that
21:48
were enough of a motivation to quit your bad habit.
21:51
And sometimes it is, and that's wonderful.
21:54
But sometimes the thing that really gets a person to quit
21:57
their bad habit is self loathing, right?
21:59
And it's like, we give that a bad rap.
22:01
We were like, shame. Oh no, not shame.
22:03
Shame is the worst thing ever. Like let's not let anyone feel
22:07
it. And it's like maybe we've gotten
22:09
too soft. Maybe it's OK to get fed up with
22:12
your own BS and be like, I hate this about myself and I'm ready
22:17
to be done with it. I can do better than this, you
22:20
know, That's sort of fierce energy.
22:24
Has the power to break three through things and and make
22:28
changes. So I think it's OK to be sick of
22:31
your own BS. And I don't know how I got here
22:34
actually. I just feel like I'm rambling.
22:36
It's been a long week. Well, I think that's absolutely
22:39
right. That's you can't have completely
22:42
pure intention. It's a matter of rectifying the
22:44
intention over time, recognizing that, OK, yeah, I'm partially
22:49
motivated by these lesser intentions, but.
22:52
But what I want to do is, is strive for the good and now I
22:55
want to have that intention. I'm curious to know why is it
22:58
that you don't want to grow your podcast anymore at this point?
23:02
Well, Oh yeah, I have been starting to talk about that.
23:05
So what I've learned is that we all need a certain amount of
23:09
money to live, right? And as therapists, we can we
23:13
have the potential to make a decent living as an influencer.
23:18
And I put that in air quotes. OK, let me put it this way.
23:23
I would say a significant majority of therapists have the
23:27
potential to make a decent living.
23:29
Only a small minority of influencers have the potential
23:33
to make a decent living, right? And those who do can get rich.
23:37
But there are so many people for many reasons, not all of them
23:43
completely ego driven, right? But there are many people for
23:47
many reasons, striving to have some degree of influence.
23:49
And and that doesn't mean that influencer is a term that I
23:51
particularly love or identify with myself.
23:54
But you know what I'm saying? People who are Internet
23:56
personalities, they have a podcast, A blog, a book, a
23:58
whatever, you know, social media presence.
24:01
And I do. I have a social media presence.
24:03
I have a podcast that's fairly popular for just being something
24:06
organic that I started from scratch.
24:11
Anyway, it takes a lot of work to make those things profitable,
24:16
to the point where the amount of money you're getting per hour
24:21
that you're putting in comes anywhere in the ballpark of the
24:27
amount of money you make per hour just doing therapy.
24:31
So what I realized is that I was sacrificing time spent doing
24:37
actual therapy. Like I was trying to keep my
24:39
therapy hours limited to make room for all these other things.
24:42
To make room for my podcast, to make room to represent the film
24:46
and and to make room for honestly just the enormous
24:49
volume of e-mail that comes in and DMS and things when you
24:53
reach this kind of level of micro celebrity that I'm at,
24:55
which is I would say a very awkward level, I would not
24:57
recommend to any individual having 30,000 Twitter followers
25:00
and, you know, 10,000 monthly downloads on your podcast or
25:03
whatever is a very awkward amount of attention for one
25:05
individual to manage. And so I was paying, you know,
25:10
support teams to do things that didn't necessarily generate
25:13
income just to help me keep up with the amount of work it felt
25:16
like was on my shoulders. And and I'm still there now at
25:19
this place of burnout and overwhelm.
25:21
And I'm realizing like I just need to see more clients, you
25:23
know, like I I. So, yeah, I don't want to grow
25:27
because I mean, while my podcast is starting to become lucrative,
25:31
what I realized from my my little dalliance with being a
25:36
so-called influencer. And again it's not the term I
25:38
would choose but it's the one that's most familiar to people
25:42
is that it's like not worth it. So.
25:46
So I have to come back to what, what motivation makes it worth
25:48
it. And it is that there is at the
25:51
end of the day still that drive to connect with other people and
25:54
and self express and to have a meaningful impact.
25:57
And so I'm not going to give it up, but I just think that you
26:01
know in terms of the amount of energy you put into something
26:03
versus what you get back from it.
26:05
You know, the the the accusations that someone like me
26:07
as a grifter are like pretty funny once you look at the
26:10
numbers of like how much money I could make if I was just seeing
26:13
clients and not worrying about all this stuff compared to the
26:17
the work it takes to have a successful podcast.
26:22
So I heard about you through the bird.
26:25
Yeah, bird. Bird kids.
26:26
Bird kids memes. That was hilarious.
26:29
I showed my friends. I noticed that you used James
26:33
Lindsay's technique of cutting humor.
26:36
I don't know if that was intentional or not.
26:38
That would be the metal element in his.
26:40
Do you do you do the five elements video?
26:42
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's pretty interesting.
26:45
Yeah. So at that point, it does seem
26:49
like, yeah, you're going more on the on the offensive, being
26:55
creative and how to spread the truth and wake people up, bring
26:58
people out of The Cave any other.
27:02
How did that idea come to you? And do you have a sort of vision
27:05
for any more ideas? Yeah, I just go through bursts
27:09
where I'll I'll have like a particular creative burst.
27:13
And so there was like a week or two.
27:16
It was a few months ago at this point that I I think where it
27:20
started was I saw memes other people made.
27:23
I think I saw the the one that said kids know when they're
27:27
ready to drink and drive. And it had like a picture of
27:30
like a four year old. And it might have been just that
27:36
one that I saw at first. Or there was maybe one other in
27:38
that same genre that someone else made and and that inspired
27:43
the first one I made was would you rather have a smoker child
27:46
or a dead child? And it showed a girl, maybe nine
27:50
years old, looking very angry and mean like holding a
27:52
cigarette and kind of like hiding from her parents.
27:56
And so that was to make fun of the, would you rather have a
27:59
trans child or a dead child narrative, which we know is
28:02
coercive and misleading, right. So to shed light on it is, you
28:06
know, well, kids will kill themselves if you don't give
28:08
them cigarettes, right? Like if we were all spreading
28:11
that message as a culture, then certainly you would have
28:14
impressionable teenagers threatening suicide if you
28:18
didn't give them cigarettes because they are impressionable
28:21
and malleable. And, you know, and kids tend to
28:27
go through phases where they present in very immature ways.
28:31
So. So I think it started off with
28:33
that. And then I just kind of got on A
28:35
roll where I discovered a pretty quick and easy way to make memes
28:40
and about like 20 ideas came to me in a week or 2.
28:44
And so I yeah, I mean, there's times where I do kind of go on
28:48
the attack, poking holes and things poke, you know, and just
28:52
hope that the backlash isn't too terrible.
28:55
I did hit a wall when there was a Fox News article about my
29:00
memes that I I did not appreciate because the reporter
29:02
I spoke to did not let me know that this was going to be a both
29:06
sides article. She just said she wanted to do
29:08
an article about my memes. So she didn't inform me about
29:12
the other side quotes that she would be using.
29:16
And I don't know if she actually spoke to someone or if she was
29:18
just pulling things off of a website.
29:20
But the whole article ended with, like, something about how,
29:24
like, these kids will kill themselves if they're not
29:26
affirmed. And I didn't get it, a chance to
29:28
actually respond to that claim, which makes me look wildly
29:31
irresponsible. You know, the news article looks
29:33
like, oh, here's this like, person who's a therapist who's
29:37
like, making fun of trans kids and look, she's causing suicide.
29:40
Right? So I got very upset about that.
29:42
Contacted Fox News, never heard back.
29:45
And that was, I think, where I reached my point of burnout.
29:48
So I go through phases, right? Like phases of activism or not
29:52
caring so much about the consequences of myself.
29:55
Expression because it feels important, and then phases where
29:59
it just feels not worth it. But yeah, I do think that we all
30:04
need some Comic Relief, though. And a lot of people got that
30:07
from the memes, and they felt seen and validated, and they
30:11
felt like I was exposing issues in a way that they needed to be
30:14
exposed by drawing absurd analogies through satire.
30:19
Yeah, yeah, it is very effective.
30:21
Picture tells 1000 words. And I'm sorry about that
30:24
irresponsible journalism. Just another bit of adversity
30:27
you faced. Thank you.
30:30
So we'd like to hear about some of the adversity you faced, what
30:34
what you've done to overcome it, what you'd advise someone who's
30:38
going through a similar situation.
30:40
Honestly, I haven't had a chance to talk about this yet, but it's
30:44
coming to mind right now. Friendly fire is the worst, Like
30:48
because you can anticipate, you can anticipate certain types of
30:51
haters, you can anticipate trans rights activists, that they're
30:55
just going to distort everything you say and call you names.
30:59
And with that it's, you know, it's easy to start to develop
31:03
somewhat of a thick skin for that sort of thing because it's
31:07
very predictable and it's kind of easy to dismiss out of hand.
31:11
It's like, well, these are people who are indoctrinated
31:14
into a belief system and these are the same people who might be
31:17
needing my help 5 or 10 years from now.
31:19
So it's like forgive them for they know what not what they do
31:21
sort of moment, right. I think the hardest thing for me
31:25
about being a public figure who is periodically an an, an
31:30
unpredictable ways attacked and criticized on the Internet is
31:35
the friendly fire. I mean the the other hardest
31:37
part is that the fact that people have made threats against
31:39
my license, which I've fought against and won.
31:41
But there's always that sense, oh, like when is it going to
31:43
happen again, right. Although it was heartening that
31:47
my board released a statement in a newsletter recently saying
31:50
that they received complaints about licensees based on social
31:55
media content and they felt this was a good time to reiterate
31:59
their policy about the limits of what they will police.
32:02
So that was, that was refreshing that my board was willing to
32:05
take a stance and say we're not, you know, as long as someone's
32:07
not like, you know, airing private health information on
32:12
social media or like attacking clients online, like, you know,
32:15
we're not going to tell people what, you know, how they're
32:17
allowed to express themselves during their free time.
32:19
So I appreciated that. But I would say the other hard,
32:22
hardest thing has been friendly fire.
32:24
And maybe this is something that you can relate to in your
32:26
personal life. And I've just had another
32:29
instance of it come up recently. I would say the quickest way to
32:33
aggravate me or to lose my trust or respect or friendship is to
32:41
to attack me on the basis of my profession based on you not
32:46
liking something I did when I was not your therapist.
32:49
Right. So So what I mean by that is so
32:51
I like an interaction on social media recently where I someone
32:56
had made a comment about how step parents are so bad and I
33:00
said like, that's harsh. I'm sorry that you had a bad
33:02
experience with your step parents, but as a step parent
33:04
myself, like you know, we were vilified and scapegoated despite
33:08
the fact that we sacrificed to raise other people's children.
33:10
And then she came back and said you're harsh and especially for
33:18
a therapist, this is lacking in empathy.
33:21
That is exactly the way to get under my skin, right?
33:24
For somebody who's not my patient and who is under, you
33:29
know, who I'm under no contractual obligation to when
33:32
I'm engaging in my free time, whether it's friends, family,
33:36
online acquaintances, colleagues, whatever to say,
33:39
you're not a good therapist because you don't fulfill my
33:42
expectation of how you should be performing in this role, right.
33:45
So there's there's a lot of projection there.
33:47
There's like this expectation that because I'm a therapist who
33:51
is also a person who's on social media, that my role on social
33:55
media should be to just be the source of unconditional positive
33:58
regard and empathy and mirroring and validation.
34:00
I should always put other people's perspectives first.
34:03
You know that if this person makes this negative comment
34:05
about step parents, I should respond as if I were a therapist
34:08
to that, rather than responding as if I'm a step parent.
34:11
You know, like I wear many hats, right?
34:13
And and step parents are vilified and we are at risk of
34:17
burnout. And I'm actually reading a book
34:18
on it right now. Step monster, which is pretty
34:20
good. So and I've had things like that
34:23
happen with friends who I went out of my way to help.
34:29
And then when I didn't help them enough or in the exact way that
34:33
they had fantasized I would then they tell me I'm a bad
34:36
therapist. You know, I'm like how the hell
34:39
do you know what I, how I perform in that role.
34:42
You know. So that's really aggravating.
34:46
And I will say like that social media itself is just such a risk
34:51
factor for burnout and for stress.
34:56
And and it's such a double edged sword because it's been such a
34:59
valuable tool at the same time. And I do like to engage online
35:03
and be part of an intellectual community and share information
35:06
that I think will be valuable to others.
35:08
And I use Twitter XA lot to track what's going on with the
35:13
transitioners and medical ethics issues.
35:16
But I think another thing that's been really hard is just that
35:21
the volume of e-mail I received, there's like, it kind of dulls
35:26
my senses and overwhelms my plate to the point where it
35:31
makes it hard to keep in touch with friends.
35:33
That's that's a really hard thing, you know?
35:35
And then between that and the fact that I've had people who I
35:37
thought were friends, who then got mad at me because I wasn't
35:40
being their therapist in a way I didn't know I'd signed up for,
35:44
You know, you add together all of that and it just becomes
35:47
pretty overwhelming. I feel like this is a therapy
35:49
session for me. What did you drag me into,
35:51
Johann? I'm like pouring my soul out to
35:53
you. But we're recruiting a podcast.
35:56
So you're telling me that you don't give all your friends
35:59
informed consents to be your friend?
36:03
Maybe that's what I need to do. I need to have people sign a
36:05
waiver. I mean, I feel like I try to put
36:08
disclaimers on, like everything I put out into the universe,
36:11
like whatever my pinned tweet is and things like that.
36:14
Like about the, you know, the limits of what people can expect
36:18
from me. But it's weird being, you know,
36:22
just someone still in my own midlife, going through learning
36:24
life lessons, figuring out my own issues, but having been
36:28
recognized not only as an expert, but having, like, the
36:33
savior complex projected onto me right.
36:36
And then being put on this pedestal and this kind of
36:38
expectation that Stephanie has all the answers.
36:40
It's it's a weird place to be. Like, I'm only 38 years old.
36:43
Like, I gotta, you know, maybe by the end of life I'll be like
36:47
a source of perfect wisdom and we'll like, you know, dissolve
36:51
into the ethers and, like, become one with the divine light
36:54
or something like that. But you know, I got a long ways
36:56
to go. I'm very skeptical personally,
36:59
about. How psychological, health,
37:02
psychologically healthy social media is, I'm not sure I see it
37:06
as a game that's winnable. I deleted all my social media
37:09
after college recently started a little bit with some assistance
37:15
just for the kind of business side of things.
37:19
But I don't think I'd be capable of reading all the even like
37:24
just simply seeing these posts. And certainly not negative
37:30
posts, you know, because we just as humans, we feel at least I've
37:33
maybe should just speak for myself, kind of compelled to
37:37
respond or defend myself or you know, wonder why they're saying
37:40
what they're saying and who knows how much thought has been
37:44
put into into those posts. I mean you you have a
37:47
intellectual interest, but those social media is, it's not super
37:54
conducive to a high level intellectual conversation,
37:58
right. Yeah.
37:59
Since I mean just brings out the worst in people.
38:02
There's a lot of black and white thinking a lot of jumping to
38:04
conclusions and and yeah, I mean the amount of strangers I've
38:09
encountered who based on, you know, 200 words will just come
38:14
at you with this whole assessment about your entire
38:16
personality. It's it's I think very toxic in
38:18
that regard. I mean I block and mute easily
38:21
and often because I'm I'm trying to filter my experience and
38:24
sometimes I even have to mute certain, you know I follow a lot
38:27
of D transitioner accounts but sometimes I I see them going
38:31
through stuff and it's like I I can't help them with this right
38:36
now like they're decompensating in public online and and so
38:40
sometimes I even mute that just because it's it's so sad to
38:44
witness. I'm I'm trying to follow D trans
38:46
issues and and raise awareness, but even that's tough too
38:49
because another problem with social media is that it's not
38:52
context dependent and all human communication is contextual.
38:57
Some cultures and situations are more contextual than others, but
39:01
when you're just putting general messages out there, whether it's
39:03
through social media or having a blog or podcast where your
39:06
audience could be anybody you know.
39:11
With D transition especially, it's so tricky because I feel
39:15
like there are certain things I would say to D transitioners and
39:19
there's other things I would say about D transitioners.
39:21
And that's not to reflect dishonesty or lack of integrity.
39:25
It's that I would never like what I The message that I want
39:30
to drive home to people who are not D transitioners is I want to
39:33
tell them how much D transitioners are suffering.
39:35
I want to tell them how bad it is.
39:38
I don't want to tell D transitioners that they already
39:39
know that. I want to give them hope and
39:41
compassion, right? So.
39:43
So even being somebody who is not AD transitioner, who is an
39:48
advocate and vocal about D trans issues, I have had conflicts
39:51
with D transitioners. Why?
39:52
Because it's all online and it's not context dependent, right.
39:55
They're like we don't want to be called mutilated or butchered.
39:58
And it's like, I get it, I would not call you that if we were
40:02
just sitting down to dinner, you know, I wouldn't be like, hey,
40:05
how are you? You're mutilated.
40:06
Like, no, that's that's not, you know, but but what I call a
40:12
surgeon, a butcher. Or would I would.
40:15
I say to my colleagues say some of these people feel mutilated,
40:19
permanently damaged. You know, like it's it's the
40:23
communication needs to be context dependent.
40:25
And yet here I am, like having half of my life be extremely
40:32
context dependent, which is therapy and my personal life,
40:36
you know, where it's very relational.
40:38
And then also navigating being a public figure where I'm talking
40:41
to an audience of God knows how many anonymous people from
40:45
different walks of life. And they're all interpreting
40:48
something meant for one context through a very particular lens.
40:52
And just it makes way for terrible communication.
40:54
It's like no wonder our young people are so socially and
40:58
emotionally delayed right now. They're spending so much time
41:00
online. They're not learning how to
41:02
code, switch, read between the lines, you know, develop a sense
41:06
of subtlety. And then and then that leads to
41:09
this idea that you have to be your whole self everywhere,
41:11
right? Which is a lot of pressure and
41:14
and not actually feasible, which makes people more fragile and
41:18
more vulnerable. Right.
41:20
Yeah. Yeah.
41:21
It's highly problematic. It I'm really.
41:23
Yeah. I'm in the midst of questioning
41:25
whether I want to have a social media presence.
41:28
Sounds like, would you say overall it's it's done more good
41:31
than harm for you? There's no way of knowing that.
41:35
Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I would have a successful
41:40
podcast without social media. There's a lot of people I
41:45
wouldn't have met without it. There's a lot of things I
41:47
wouldn't have learned. But my life would probably also
41:50
be a lot less stressful and maybe I would have accomplished
41:53
more deep work, you know? Like, I I mean, people are
41:57
always asking me when are you going to write a book?
41:58
I'm like when I have some kind of windfall that allows me to
42:03
take a year off from everything, like, you know, like I I don't
42:07
have time to do that type of deep work.
42:10
My life is just like one meeting after another.
42:13
So yeah, I think maybe if I did a complete fast from social
42:16
media, I would lose some podcast followers and I would be not
42:21
connected to some of the news and I would, you know, lose
42:25
touch with certain people. But maybe I would actually be
42:27
able to focus on things that are deep and meaningful in their own
42:31
way that require a certain amount of solitude and quietude.
42:35
Yeah, it sounds like right now you're at the limit of what one
42:40
person can do and maybe with some help and you're kind of
42:45
deciding like, what's what's the next?
42:47
What was the next phase? Now, do I take a different tack
42:51
to do some deep work? Do I just, you know, kind of
42:54
continue where I am right now? But I can see that you're a
42:58
person with a lot of talents and there's someone who has high
43:02
ideals and. I think you can.
43:05
You are impacting a lot of people.
43:06
I think you can impact even more once you find that attack.
43:11
Thank you So tell. Us a little bit about the
43:16
documentary that looks pretty interesting.
43:19
You helped produce that, I believe, Yeah.
43:22
So the documentary is called No Way Back The Reality of Gender
43:25
Affirming Care. It can be found at No Way Back
43:27
film.com. You can also order DVDs on
43:31
Amazon and you can use my promo code at No Way Back film.com.
43:35
You can use my promo code. Some therapist for 20% off.
43:41
So I'm really blessed and honored to have been a part of
43:43
this. It's a documentary on D
43:45
Transitioners from a very compassionate perspective.
43:48
So we follow the stories of 5D Transitioners from basically
43:52
childhood through adolescence through when they were first
43:55
exposed. This idea that you might be the
43:57
opposite sex and that that might be the reason that you've always
44:01
felt all these things that you felt.
44:03
And then this will be the solution to your problems.
44:05
And then through the, you know, the phase of euphoria to the
44:10
time where it all fell apart for them.
44:12
And then we look at the underlying issues that went
44:15
untreated and unaddressed. And then we look at how did
44:18
things get here. So I I was fortunate to be
44:20
featured along, you know, several other noteworthy
44:23
therapists in this field like Sasha Ayad and Lisa Marciano,
44:28
Stella O'Malley. And then we have, you know,
44:31
Doctor Lisa Littman, we have Doctor Michael Biggs, Doctor
44:36
Julia Mason, Doctor William Malone.
44:40
So we have basically several physicians, therapists,
44:44
sociologists, journalists, Lisa Sellen Davis and Jennifer
44:50
Bullock. I'm sure there's some people I'm
44:53
leaving out, but basically starting with the D
44:55
transitioners and then talking to the experts to find out how
44:57
did we let this happen to people, what happened in the
45:01
field of therapy? What happened in medicine?
45:04
Is there any evidence base for this?
45:06
Spoiler alert, there's not. And and then sort of some, you
45:13
know some some guesswork around like what is what is motivating
45:18
all of this as well. But we try to stay apolitical
45:22
and you know compassionate and focus on the people who have
45:25
been harmed. You know it's it's a really
45:28
excellent medical ethics documentary and I would say if
45:31
there's if someone is new to the issue and open minded and
45:35
they're willing to devote an hour and a half to learning,
45:39
this is probably one of the best ways that they could possibly
45:41
learn about the issue. So we really want to encourage
45:44
anyone who can to watch it and sometimes people ask how can we
45:49
get this for free. But I want you to think that we
45:51
have some very hard working people behind the scenes who
45:53
have poured their blood, sweat and tears and their own personal
45:57
income into this film. So please go ahead and support
46:01
the film and just make a purchase on our website.
46:04
Yeah, excellent. Yeah, it sounds like a great
46:07
thing. That's for discussions with
46:10
people who may be coming from a different background.
46:14
Because when you have, when you're able to show something,
46:17
it's kind of more objective. It's not it's not me telling you
46:20
this. It's hey let's watch this third
46:22
party and then we can discuss our impressions on it.
46:26
Yeah. And it's also it's pretty
46:28
liberal in tone. You know it's not anti-gay.
46:31
There's unfortunately a lot of people who still believe that
46:35
the LGBTQ is 1 unified community, which again spoiler
46:38
alert, it's not. And who think that anyone who
46:42
opposes gender ideology or opposes transient vulnerable
46:45
people is anti-gay. And we're not.
46:49
So I think this film it's it's a good alternative to some of the
46:52
more conservative documentaries that have come out on this
46:55
topic. Good one.
46:58
Anything else that would be helpful to talk about or you'd
47:00
like to share, Yeah, I don't know.
47:05
It's it's the end of a long week for me and I'm just hoping I
47:07
didn't say anything too personal.
47:10
I wonder, I wonder if my experience of being a guest on
47:13
your show is is what it must feel like to be a guest on my
47:16
show. Because I because I kind of feel
47:19
like you put me in the patient seat a little bit and I I like,
47:21
opened up about my own stuff. I've had a few guests on my show
47:24
that like, made me feel that way.
47:26
People who are very experienced therapists where I'm like, oh
47:28
wait, we're talking about my stuff now.
47:30
How did that happen? So yeah, I hope I didn't share
47:32
anything too too personal. But it is at the same time kind
47:36
of refreshing to just kind of stop and reflect on where I'm at
47:40
at this particular point in my life.
47:42
And I understand that one of the aims of your show is to
47:44
highlight people who have leadership qualities and and
47:48
values that they aspire to live by.
47:50
And, you know, I hope that by being vulnerable in this way
47:53
that I've shed somewhat of a light on the the inner
47:56
experience of someone who's definitely still in the middle
47:59
of a long chapter of life and just kind of figuring things out
48:04
as I go. Yeah, exactly.
48:06
Well, yeah, I think it's super encouraging for people like
48:09
myself who are going through this and seeing that, hey, the
48:15
people who who stand up for the truth, they're they're also
48:19
human. The people who historically have
48:23
shed their blood for the truth, they they were human.
48:27
They're made out of the same stuff that were made out of.
48:31
And somehow we have to find that motivation if if we want the
48:37
next generation to have a better life than we have, it's really
48:42
true. You know I I had a colleague who
48:46
one of one of many colleagues I'm in touch with online.
48:49
We've never met in person but he recently kind of finally got to
48:54
the place where he felt emboldened to speak out on this
48:56
issue as well. And and he said that knowing
49:02
that I was burnt out and struggling with chronic illness
49:05
was part of the reason that because you just, I've had a few
49:08
people say things like that to me.
49:09
They're like you shouldn't have to do this all yourself
49:11
Stephanie. Like, you have your own limits.
49:13
So yeah, and but I think that that that way that we tend to
49:19
put certain people on pedestals. First of all, I do not like
49:21
being on a pedestal because I know full well that like the
49:27
easiest place to go from a pedestal is crashing down onto
49:31
the floor and shattering. Like that's a precarious
49:34
location to be and a lonely one. But, you know, there is that
49:38
kind of human tendency to have these, you know, God like
49:41
figures, celebrities, that we just kind of we we look up to
49:45
them in this kind of archetypal way and and project things onto
49:49
them. But you know once you get your,
49:51
once you get your hands dirty, once you actually like, get in
49:55
the ring and start taking risks. You.
50:02
Yeah. You realize that.
50:03
And you also like another thing I found is that the people who
50:08
people who have that kind of dichotomy in their mind of like
50:12
there are stars who have no human emotions and then there's
50:15
the rest of us. Like they they are often kind of
50:20
lacking in self scrutiny or self reflection regarding any like,
50:27
moral failings on their own part or you know how.
50:30
And. And it's the people who have
50:32
gotten their hands dirty that I've found to be so much more
50:37
compassionate. You know, like I've talked to so
50:41
many people who have been through their own version of
50:45
character destruction and where I've been nervous that, you
50:51
know, because I've had a few people really go after my
50:53
reputation and I've been nervous like, oh did they say something
50:56
about me to so and so and then I like talk to so and so and
50:59
they're like that sucks. I'm sorry.
51:00
I know what that feels like. And I don't have a moral purity
51:03
test, you know. And and so it's the people who
51:06
are really creating stuff too, that also understand how much
51:10
work goes into making the imperfect products that we make
51:15
as content creators Like. And once you've had your own
51:18
experience of creating, whether it's writing a book or you're
51:22
launching a podcast or whatever it is like, you're so much less
51:27
quick to judge other people. Because you know what it takes
51:30
to put yourself out there and to refine your art and to take
51:34
those risks and to bring something to fruition.
51:38
It's not the critic that counts as Teddy Rosa, I would say, but
51:42
you make a really good point about not putting people on
51:45
pedestals. I think that really bears
51:47
emphasizing that's ultimately it's a mistake to put our our
51:52
trust in any human being. Well, can you just remind us
51:57
where we can find you? Yep.
51:59
So my name again is Stephanie Wynn Winn and my handle
52:04
everywhere is some therapist I'm most active on X, formerly known
52:08
as Twitter. I actually made a calculated
52:10
decision recently to just not put any energy into Instagram
52:14
because I was actually paying someone to create content.
52:16
I'm like, why? I'm I'm spending money just to
52:19
have a presence on a social media site I don't use.
52:21
So yeah, I'm mostly on X at some therapist.
52:25
My website issometherapist.com that will take you to my blog.
52:29
My bookshop. People often ask me for reading
52:31
recommendations. They're all there in my
52:33
bookshop. I also have Wellness products
52:35
with affiliate codes. And of course you can find my
52:37
podcast there. My podcast is You must be Some
52:39
Kind of therapist That's found everywhere podcasts are found
52:43
and on YouTube. And then for our film, No way
52:46
back. The reality of gender affirming
52:48
care, which I may or may not have mentioned, was formerly
52:50
known as Affirmation generation. You can find that again at
52:53
nowaybackfilm.com and you can use my promo code SOME THERAPIST
52:57
to take 20% off. You can also find it on Amazon
53:00
on DVD and I think that just about covers it.
53:05
Well, without putting you on a pestle, I want to say I really
53:08
appreciate what you do and wish you all the best with it.
53:11
Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.