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Fired & Jailed: Attacks on Free Speech Under Trump · The Real News Podcast

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Okay. One, two, okay, Yeah, we're good. All right, So
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: I will start it off. Okay, you want to start off,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: I'll throw this out exactly right.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Turn around, turn around, turn around. Okay. So let's not.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, he's nervous. Mamu Khalil was detained and arrested
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: on March eighth, twenty twenty five, outside of his Manhattan apartment.
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  Speaker 1: It's a chilling video. Plain clothes agents are there that
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  Speaker 1: refuse to give their names. He's handcuffed and shoved into
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  Speaker 1: the back of a car. His wife, eight months pregnant,
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  Speaker 1: watches and tries to understand what's happening. This is not
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  Speaker 1: a scene from some dark chapter of a distant past
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  Speaker 1: filled with black and white photos of bygone dictatorships. This
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  Speaker 1: happened here in the United States of America. Mamou Khalil
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  Speaker 1: is a graduate student from Columbia University. He led protests
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  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four against Israel's US backed occupation of
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  Speaker 1: Palestine and the gen aside there, but speaking out today
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  Speaker 1: has a high price. Mahmut Khalil is a US resident
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  Speaker 1: born in a Palestinian refugee camp in Syria. But Trump
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  Speaker 1: officials said they stripped him of his green card. They
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  Speaker 1: held him for months at an ice jail in Louisiana,
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  Speaker 1: far from his home in New York, far from his
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  Speaker 1: wife and newborn son. He was finally released after one
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  Speaker 1: hundred days in prison and widespread condemnation. Just one highly
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  Speaker 1: visible victim of so many attacks on free speech in
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  Speaker 1: the United States today, and it's getting worse.
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  Speaker 3: This is the Battle for Free Speech, a new multi
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  Speaker 3: part narrative podcast series brought to you by the Real News.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: We're your hosts. I'm Mark Steiner and I'm Michael Fox.
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  Speaker 1: Over the coming weeks, we're going to take you on
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  Speaker 1: a journey to understand the important role free speech has
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  Speaker 1: played in US history, from.
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  Speaker 3: The Ablanch's movement and the Civil Rights Organizing, to the
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  Speaker 3: threats facing free speech today, and how battles are being
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  Speaker 3: way of free speech at home and abroad today. We
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  Speaker 3: wanted to set the scene by beginning in the present.
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  Speaker 3: I'm at a pretty disturbing assault on First Amendment rights
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  Speaker 3: here in the United States. Mike is taking lead and
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  Speaker 3: reporting here, So why don't you take off, excellent Mark,
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  Speaker 3: Thank you so much. So I wanted to start off today.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I've been speaking to a lot of people
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  Speaker 1: in recent weeks, victims and lawyers about this current moment
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  Speaker 1: and the attacks on free speech rights. It's horrowing carrying
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  Speaker 1: their stories but also the context right of looking at
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: where we are today. And I wanted to kind of
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  Speaker 1: kick us off with a conversation I had with a
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  Speaker 1: woman named Lisa Femia.
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  Speaker 4: I am a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
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  Speaker 4: which is a nonprofit dedicated to protecting civil liberties and
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  Speaker 4: civil rights online and in the face of new and
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  Speaker 4: emerging technologies.
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  Speaker 1: And she's been looking at all of this stuff, and
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  Speaker 1: in particular kind of the Trump crackdown on non citizens
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  Speaker 1: residents within the United States, stripping them of their visas,
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  Speaker 1: the same thing we saw with Mamu Khalil, right, just
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  Speaker 1: for context, she said that obviously we've seen this increasing
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  Speaker 1: attack on free speech rights in recent years, but this
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  Speaker 1: massive uptick within Trump's second administration, and that's not a
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  Speaker 1: surprise to anyone. But she in particular kind of underscored
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  Speaker 1: this question of Trump targeting non citizens visa holders and
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  Speaker 1: how they're clearly trying to censor and deport notices non
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  Speaker 1: citizens for speaking out, particularly around the question of Palestine.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean in terms of specific numbers, it's broad
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  Speaker 4: reaching because you have both people who have had you know,
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  Speaker 4: ben or rest did been deported, had other negative actions
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  Speaker 4: taken against them, and some of them have been quite public,
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  Speaker 4: like Mark Mood Khalil for example.
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  Speaker 2: But then you also have the mass chilling effect that
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  Speaker 2: happens for everybody's speech.
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  Speaker 1: So her organization has launched a lawsuit with the support
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  Speaker 1: of three different unions.
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  Speaker 4: United Autoworkers, Communication Workers of America, and American Federation Teachers.
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  Speaker 1: And what's interesting here is that it's specifically looking at
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  Speaker 1: the administration's social media surveillance program against non citizens.
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  Speaker 4: And they each surveyed their members before we filed about
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  Speaker 4: you know, how has this surveillance program affected your activity
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  Speaker 4: online and your willingness.
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  Speaker 2: To express yourself?
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  Speaker 4: And overwhelming amounts of members said yes, I have changed
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  Speaker 4: my behavior, especially the non.
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  Speaker 2: Citizen members, but citizen members as well. Well.
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  Speaker 4: You know, of the respondents aware of the surveillance program
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  Speaker 4: of the uaw OR, eighty five percent of the visa
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  Speaker 4: holders said that they had changed their activity online, including
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  Speaker 4: just eliminating their presence online entirely.
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  Speaker 1: So what does that mean? That means that in some
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  Speaker 1: cases they've just gotten offline altogether, they've deleted accounts. In
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  Speaker 1: other cases, they've changed the way they communicate online, what
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  Speaker 1: they post, what they don't post, who they communicate with,
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  Speaker 1: you know, who they retweet, how they how they talk
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  Speaker 1: about things. And this is interesting because you know, oftentimes,
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  Speaker 1: you know, we hear about kind of the high profile cases,
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  Speaker 1: and you know, the situations which we're going to dig
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  Speaker 1: into today, but this looks at kind of the minutia
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  Speaker 1: of what happens when you're censoring people, when you're attempting
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  Speaker 1: to deport people or lock them up, when you're firing teachers.
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  Speaker 4: And I think maybe some people hear this and like, okay,
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  Speaker 4: but that's just online speech. But you have to remember
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  Speaker 4: how much speech happens online now, how much political organizing
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  Speaker 4: happens online now, for the unions, how much labor organizing
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  Speaker 4: and being able to literally just communicate with their members
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  Speaker 4: happens online now. And people are just shutting down. They're
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  Speaker 4: just locking down and keeping quiet because they're scared. So
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  Speaker 4: it's almost hard to measure the effect of this because
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  Speaker 4: there's so many people that are chilled, even if they
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  Speaker 4: haven't had a direct action against them yet.
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  Speaker 1: And what that means is then what we see online
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  Speaker 1: and what we see, you know, the speech that becomes
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  Speaker 1: online and the speech that's allowed to remain the way
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  Speaker 1: it is or becomes even more viral or becomes even
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  Speaker 1: more outspoken. Are those people who are in support of
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  Speaker 1: Donald Trump and kind of far right policies, and the
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  Speaker 1: other speech, say it's in defensive Palestine or speaking out
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  Speaker 1: about Trump's policies becomes minimized because people are afraid to
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  Speaker 1: speak out. That's like literally what this one lawsuit is
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  Speaker 1: talking about. I just thought that so fascinating because it's
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  Speaker 1: not something that we're hearing at all, you know, it's
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  Speaker 1: just this this kind of unprecedented moment that we're seeing,
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  Speaker 1: you know, in the United States right now.
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  Speaker 3: You know, I'm a huge student of what happened in
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  Speaker 3: Germany and World War two in the Third Reich. I've
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  Speaker 3: covered a lot in podcasts about the history, and it
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  Speaker 3: feels as if we are in nineteen thirty as an
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  Speaker 3: analogous period where the forces of the right, authoritarian forces
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  Speaker 3: right are really gaining strength. They have their figurehead at
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  Speaker 3: the top in Donald Trump, and he is mouthing the
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  Speaker 3: words that they want him to say, so they can
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  Speaker 3: begin as kind of authoritary and push in America to
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  Speaker 3: shut opposition down, to shut voices down, to kill the
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  Speaker 3: independent press, and to bring everybody in line to where
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  Speaker 3: they want to take America. I think we are in
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  Speaker 3: the most dangerous place we've been in the history of
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  Speaker 3: this country unless you happen to be indigenous or black
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  Speaker 3: and living in the nineteenth century, even the twenty eighth
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  Speaker 3: century in this country. So I think that we can
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  Speaker 3: take lessons from We can take lessons from reconstruction, the
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  Speaker 3: lessons when there was this huge gas for fresh air
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  Speaker 3: and people believing in freedom and building a new kind
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  Speaker 3: of democracy that was absolutely crushed by the forces in Washington,
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  Speaker 3: d c. And former Confederates that killed black the rights
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  Speaker 3: of black people in America and changed America for the
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  Speaker 3: next ninety years, became an oppressive nation for black people
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  Speaker 3: in this country and indigenous and other people. And what
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  Speaker 3: we're facing now is broader. Even we're facing a threat
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  Speaker 3: to the democracies that we have, and we're facing the
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  Speaker 3: threat to freedom in general, and it's building slowly.
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  Speaker 1: You know, As a father.
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  Speaker 3: And a grandfather and a great grandfather, I am absolutely
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  Speaker 3: worried for all of my children and their friends and
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  Speaker 3: their peers and what they're going to face because I
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  Speaker 3: see the right growing in power and I see the
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  Speaker 3: opposition forces.
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  Speaker 1: In absolute disarray.
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  Speaker 3: Not to I don't want to go down that rabbit
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  Speaker 3: hole now, I just want to lay that out, but
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  Speaker 3: I think we're.
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  Speaker 1: In a very dangerous moment. Yeah, you know what's fascinating
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  Speaker 1: Mark is obviously I agree with you, and I see
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  Speaker 1: the question of free speech. And I think that's why
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: this podcast that you know we're embarking on is so important,
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  Speaker 1: because it's almost as if this is the canary in
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  Speaker 1: the coal mine in a lot of ways, with people
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  Speaker 1: being silenced, with people being fired, with people being deported
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  Speaker 1: for speaking out, and the increasing attacks on.
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  Speaker 3: This, you know, for contexts, just to put it in
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  Speaker 3: everybody's head who's listening right now, because we take for
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: granted the founding documents of our country, and those founding documents, yes,
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  Speaker 3: they were written by a slave owner, no question he
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  Speaker 3: wrote them for white people, but they're universal in terms
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  Speaker 3: of what they mean. And let me just read for
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  Speaker 3: all of us what the First Amendment says. The First
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  Speaker 3: Amendment guarantees freedoms concerning religion, expression, assembly and the right
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  Speaker 3: to petition. It forbids Congress from promoting one religion over
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  Speaker 3: others and also restricting and individual's religious practices. It guarantees
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  Speaker 3: freedom of expression by prohibiting Congress from restricting the press
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  Speaker 3: and the rights of individuals to speak freely. It also
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  Speaker 3: guarantees the right of citizens to assemble peaceably and to petition.
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  Speaker 1: Their government.
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  Speaker 3: Has flaws, but helped make the democracy we have what
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  Speaker 3: it is. The right to speak your mind, say what
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  Speaker 3: you want, assemble and fight for your rights, assembled, to
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  Speaker 3: protest is fundamental to this country. That's what they're eroding.
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  Speaker 3: That's what they want to take away. That's my fear.
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  Speaker 1: That it's a perfect segue into this next into this
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  Speaker 1: next world. I want to take you right because one
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  Speaker 1: of the places they have been most trying to silence
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  Speaker 1: people from speaking out and from standing up is around Palestine. Right.
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  Speaker 1: And so I spoke recently with a woman named Karina Mulin.
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  Speaker 1: She is a professor at CuNi, the City University of
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  Speaker 1: New York, or at least she was.
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  Speaker 5: I've been teaching at CuNi for eight years, and you know,
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  Speaker 5: also I teach about Palestine. I teach about settler colonialism,
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  Speaker 5: I teach about US imperialism, and the two Idol six
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  Speaker 5: investigations I was subjected to had to do with false
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  Speaker 5: accusations of anti semitism, UH and the university rather, you know,
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  Speaker 5: then defend me from from these accusations, and not only
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  Speaker 5: that from the dosing. And instead of defending us, they
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  Speaker 5: have contributed to it.
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  Speaker 2: You know, they've thrown us under the bus.
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  Speaker 1: She is currently a member of the fired four. So
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  Speaker 1: she and three colleagues were all fired for very similar situations.
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  Speaker 1: They all were very active in the pro Palestine movement
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  Speaker 1: on campus. They were all very active for standing up
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  Speaker 1: in defending students and speaking out UH, and they were
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  Speaker 1: all all four of them were fired.
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  Speaker 5: In our cases, of the fired four, we haven't actually
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  Speaker 5: been given the reason for our firing. There's almost no
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  Speaker 5: due process and very little in terms of contractual protections
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  Speaker 5: because we're all adjuncts and we could be fired for
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  Speaker 5: any reason or no reason at all. What we share
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  Speaker 5: in common is that we have all been outspoken in
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  Speaker 5: solidarity with Palestine, in contesting the genocide and in challenging
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  Speaker 5: also the role you know, of our institution in its complicity,
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  Speaker 5: its collusion with that genocide through its investments and contracts
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  Speaker 5: with companies that benefit from settler colonialism, war and genocide.
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  Speaker 1: Now they've had a big campaign to try and get
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  Speaker 1: them reinstated by the Union, which has been really pushing this,
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  Speaker 1: which is exciting and important. But her situation and her case,
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  Speaker 1: I think is so you know, it's just one case
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  Speaker 1: of so many that we've seen around the country. So
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  Speaker 1: both of those investigations against her were found to be
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  Speaker 1: un substantiated. But regardless, she talks about how her academic
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  Speaker 1: freedom was under mine.
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  Speaker 5: Because when I am in class and I'm teaching a
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  Speaker 5: course on the politics of the Middle East, for example,
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  Speaker 5: and I and I'm talking about because I can't teach
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  Speaker 5: a course on the politics of the Middle East without
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  Speaker 5: talking about the history of settler colonialism and Palestine. Then
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  Speaker 5: of course that's in the back of my head. You know,
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  Speaker 5: there's always going to be this fear that there might
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  Speaker 5: be another investigation, despite the fact that you know, these
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  Speaker 5: two investigations have been found to be unsubstantiated. So there's
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: that the fact that the university allows for what is
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: really a form of harassment, and many of these students
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  Speaker 5: might even be paid by or Zionist organizations they might,
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: you know, have their own political agenda, so you know,
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  Speaker 5: to to allow that to take place already, and to
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  Speaker 5: you know, to pursue the investigations itself is a form
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  Speaker 5: of violation of academic freedom.
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  Speaker 1: Again, the Teachers Union has has stood up, many students
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  Speaker 1: have defended her, and in fact, the union presidents himself
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  Speaker 1: has called this a McCarthyite political purge. No, we will
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  Speaker 1: not allow the disingenuous McCarthy like attacks on higher education.
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  Speaker 1: We will not allow it on cuting.
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  Speaker 6: We will die professors, for the students, for the people
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  Speaker 6: that make you any break every step of the weather.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that connection to the past, right to
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  Speaker 1: to McCarthy to remembering kind of what has happened in
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  Speaker 1: the past when people stood up or spoke out, uh,
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  Speaker 1: and what's happening now clearly on university campuses. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: that's like the big image of around the country where
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: people are are being purged, where people are being attacked
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  Speaker 1: and undermined and are being fired or silent.
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  Speaker 5: And it's only escalated since Trump has come to power,
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  Speaker 5: and now with the congressional hearings, for example, there's the
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: Congressional hearing on Higher Education anti Semitism so called you know,
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  Speaker 5: claims of anti Semitism and higher education, which really are
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  Speaker 5: just conflating anti Zionism and anti Semitism.
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  Speaker 7: Well, here today about anti semitism at three institutions Haverford College,
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  Speaker 7: DePaul University in California, Polytechnic State University, San Luis obispook.
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  Speaker 8: That you know, all of this has really escalated and
• 16:37
  Speaker 8: pushed the administration or embold in the administration to really
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  Speaker 8: crack down on academic freedom and the rights of students
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  Speaker 8: to organize and speak out against settler colonialism and genocide
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  Speaker 8: on campus.
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  Speaker 1: It's a really concerning and terrifying moment that I know
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  Speaker 1: I haven't seen in my lifetime. Mark you have you
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  Speaker 1: ever seen something like this at this level?
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  Speaker 3: At this level, I mean, I grew up in the
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: shadow of HUAK, the House of American Activities Committee.
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  Speaker 5: The question is.
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  Speaker 9: Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
• 17:17
  Speaker 9: I am framing my answer in the only way in
• 17:19
  Speaker 9: which any American citizens can him. Then you denied absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: And family friends and some of my peers, A couple
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: of my closest friends, their parents were dragged before Hyuek
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: for being allegedly Communists for supporting or having been a
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: member of the Communist Party, being active in trade unions,
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: being active in progressive politics, and so.
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  Speaker 1: That period was very frightening.
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  Speaker 3: The moment, that period, as I said, that, and the
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: end of Reconstruction are emblematic.
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  Speaker 1: Of what we face today.
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  Speaker 3: But it's even more serious because I think the power
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  Speaker 3: of the right, the authoritarian nature of the power of
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: the right, is in ascendency in some ways because the
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: opposition is in disarray. And I don't mean to be
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: sound as if I think is all over. It's not,
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: but I'm saying that we're facing we're facing a threat
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  Speaker 3: that authoritarians will mask itself as freedom and take hold
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: of the country.
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  Speaker 1: Mark, have you met or do you know many many
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: individuals who have seen have been kind of the victims
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: of this backlash, either at university campuses or elsewhere around
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: the country.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, there are people I know who I've talked
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: around the country who are feeling an immense pressure. Where
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: we broadcast from in Maryland, we live in a state
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: that has a pretty powerful progressive movement inside the demeric
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: priority Democratic Party out and I think that's a little
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: different here, but around the country there are people that
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: are just terrified to open their mouths to say anything.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: I think we take these things for granted because we
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: live here and we think it's invaluable. Nothing can stop it.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: I want to take this to Charlie Kirk, okay, because
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: of the big issues that we've seen this year where
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: there has been silencing free speech and backlash, people losing
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: their jobs. Like the top two cases I think are
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: around obviously Palestine and pro Palestinian activism, and around the
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: fallout over his Charlie Kirk's assassination. So just for context
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: here for those who are listening, remember Charlie Kirk was
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: a right wing political activist. He was the founder of
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: the conservative organization Turning Point USA. He did these tours
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: on college campuses across the United States, and you know,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: he had a very radical, extreme views, hateful views.
• 20:11
  Speaker 10: Many would say, strong men built the West and won
• 20:14
  Speaker 10: the wars and built the building that we're in right now.
• 20:17
  Speaker 11: And without strong men, then you all of a sudden
• 20:19
  Speaker 11: see civilization unfold upon itself.
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  Speaker 10: And we're seeing that happen in real time.
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  Speaker 1: And he was killed on September tenth, twenty twenty five,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: literally while he was speaking out in public, while he
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: was doing one of these tours on a university campus.
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  Speaker 1: And I feel like in so many ways that like
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: upending so many things. Right, A, it's so important to say,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: and it's so defining for free speech. Right it's so
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: important to say. First off, there's no excuse for violence
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: like this, There's none. It has to be denounced from
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: every place, particularly in a podcast about free speech, where
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: the whole idea is everyone has the right to speak
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: their minds, everyone has their right to speak. But what
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: we saw in the backlash against those commenting on Charlie
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Kirk's murder has been has been really shocking. The highest
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: profile case mark was was clearly the whole firing and
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: scandal and then rehiring of the comedian Jimmy Kimble. Thank you.
• 21:16
  Speaker 12: Anyway, as I was saying before I was interrupt, if
• 21:21
  Speaker 12: you're just joining us, we were preempting your regularly scheduled
• 21:24
  Speaker 12: encore episode of Celebrity Family Feud to bring.
• 21:26
  Speaker 10: You this special report. I'm happy to be here tonight
• 21:30
  Speaker 10: with you.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Right you?
• 21:32
  Speaker 10: Did you?
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Did you watch this unfold? Did you follow Jimmy Kimble's work?
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: I don't follow religiously, but when this happened, I took
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: a deep dive.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, what did you find? Tell me about? Like, what
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: what did you see happening there? Given everything is coming
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: out of Trump administration. I think it was.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: A fear among the people who own some brought huge
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: broadcast stations that they were going to be attacked, they
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: were going to be investigated, they were going to have
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: their licenses removed. I think that that Jimmy Kimmel Jimmy
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: kill was a test to see how far they could
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: go in stopping freedom of speech in our country. It
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: didn't work, but it doesn't mean it won't work. It
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: was a test run. I mean, I'm not a conspiracy theorist,
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: but I do believe that people are organizing their resistance
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: to how America has changed. Yeah, and Jimmy Kimmel was
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: a test run. I see him as a test run.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: It's interesting how other comedians have spoken out kind of
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: obviously clearly in defense of Jimmy Kimmel. In the days
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: and the weeks afterwards, late.
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: Night hosts are coming to Jimmy Kimmel's defense tonight.
• 22:47
  Speaker 13: In fact, both Stephen Colbert and John Stewart unloaded tonight
• 22:51
  Speaker 13: on ABC's decision to suspend Kimmel's show, and both claim
• 22:55
  Speaker 13: it's part of a campaign by President Trump to limit
• 22:57
  Speaker 13: free speech and silence his critics.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: We have another fun, hilarious administration compliant show.
• 23:05
  Speaker 9: Well, you know what my community value is our buster
• 23:08
  Speaker 9: freedom of speech.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Obviously it wasn't just Jimmy Kimmel. Hundreds of people have
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: lost their jobs, university professor's, federal employees, private business, you know,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: mostly for what they posted online or what they spoke
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: out against. But like, clearly the backlash was shocking. So
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of understand this from behind the scenes,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: what was happening with Jimmy Kimmel, but was always happening
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: in the wake of Charlie Kirk And so recently I
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: went to the offices of Fire in Washington, d C.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Do you know this organization? It's the Foundation for Individual
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Rights and Expression Right. It's a free speech organization in
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: downtown d C. Big office. Like, I was impressed by
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: the amount of staffers and people who are there, and
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: they're doing incredible work all in defense of free speech. Today.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: So I met with staff attorney David Rubin.
• 24:05
  Speaker 11: I work on the litigation team, So we're filing lawsuits
• 24:08
  Speaker 11: in court and challenging you know, speech restrictive statutes.
• 24:13
  Speaker 10: And stuff like that.
• 24:14
  Speaker 11: And then we also have a ton of other really
• 24:17
  Speaker 11: smart lawyers who work here at non lawyers who are
• 24:19
  Speaker 11: doing a lot of different kinds of advocacy work.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: And he has this really interesting background mark because his
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: background is actually in comedy.
• 24:28
  Speaker 11: And so before law school, I worked in Los Angeles,
• 24:33
  Speaker 11: like in the business of stand up comedy for four
• 24:35
  Speaker 11: or five years. I worked for Bud Friedman, who founded
• 24:38
  Speaker 11: the Hollywood Improv and like discovered Rodney Dangerfield, Bette Midler
• 24:44
  Speaker 11: and you know Lenny Bruce used to go there. But anyways,
• 24:48
  Speaker 11: I have this long standing love of comedy.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's a story of my life, no respect,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: no respect.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: So of course the connection to Jimmy Kimmel and comedy
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: you know in the United States historically. Today's was really
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: interesting to talk with him about that, right because he
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: told me he only did stand up a couple of times.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: It wasn't really his thing. But he worked in kind
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: of the stand up world in Los Angeles for several
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: years before becoming an attorney, and that's really his passion, right,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: like people like Lenny Bruce or George Carlin, which for him,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: are like the exemplification of free speech.
• 25:27
  Speaker 11: Comedy has a big role in First Amendment protection, and
• 25:33
  Speaker 11: you know, and just in building a free speech culture.
• 25:37
  Speaker 11: And you know, like George Carlin and the Seven Dirty
• 25:40
  Speaker 11: Words and all that.
• 25:41
  Speaker 10: Nobody even tells you when you're a kid what the
• 25:42
  Speaker 10: words are that you're supposed to avoid.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: You have to say them to find out which ones they.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: Are shit.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Fuck For him, these folks exemplify what free speech should
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: be because you're up there on stage and you're you're
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: making your own critique of the reality in the United States,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: whatever that might be. And it's your it's it's your
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: freedom to be able to speak out in public or
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: or make joke in public about this. So that was
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: like one, you know, just just fascinating anecdote of speaking
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: with with with David. Do you do you did you
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: follow these people like Lenny Bruce or George Carlin or
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: some of these other comedians.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: All my life, Richard pryor all of them. I mean,
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: you know, they took America. They pushed humor to the
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: cutting edge of America almost at the Abyss and and
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: they're and they're they were funny, but they were but
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: to some people. They were really dangerous and they had
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: to be stopped and they used sometimes there they're not
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: not just the politics, but also the sexual content was
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: you know, too much for uprighteous Americans to take, at
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: least some of them.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Uh. And so I think that when you it, it's not.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: Surprising comedians, people in the creative world arem on the
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: first to be attacked. It happened to Nazi Germany, and
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: it's happening here.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So the main reason I actually went to
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: speak with David was about this very specific case in Tennessee.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Have you heard about the case of Larry Buscher Junior. No,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: tell us, what's the case? Okay, So it's it's it's
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: it's wild and it's and it's shocking because it's one
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: of those situations that like just got to this extreme
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: that it's hard to even believe it's happened within the
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: United States.
• 27:40
  Speaker 11: You know, it was a speech chilling environment, it was
• 27:44
  Speaker 11: all it was a very crazy time for like a
• 27:47
  Speaker 11: week or two. But this sort of happened kind of
• 27:50
  Speaker 11: like you know, in the late stage of that big wave.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: So Larry Bushard Junior, he's a retired police officer and
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: sheriff's deputy for twenty four years, and between late September
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: until the very end of October, he spent more than
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: a month in jail for posting a meme on Facebook
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: in the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassina. Oh yes, right,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: so this story kind of first went viral over the
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Intercept Fire was following it closely as well as David
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: Rubin Buschhard Junior was vocal on Facebook about Donald Trump
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: has been for a very long time. He called Trump
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: and his supporter as a cult. He was active online
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: after Kirk's killing about why he shouldn't be praised, basically saying,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: we can't praise this guy. And he was very kind
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: of active in particularly on Facebook. But it was one
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: meme in particular that got him in trouble.
• 28:45
  Speaker 11: It's just a picture of then President Trump saying after
• 28:52
  Speaker 11: a shooting at an Iowa high.
• 28:54
  Speaker 10: School named Perry High School, after a shooting.
• 28:58
  Speaker 11: There the day after, he said, we're all going to
• 29:01
  Speaker 11: have to get over this, or something to that effect,
• 29:03
  Speaker 11: with the obvious implication that it meant perhaps we might
• 29:07
  Speaker 11: be being a little hypocritical.
• 29:08
  Speaker 10: Here where if we have to get over it.
• 29:10
  Speaker 11: The day after a bunch of kids get killed, and
• 29:13
  Speaker 11: we're still firing people nine days later because they say
• 29:16
  Speaker 11: something bad about this one person.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Underneath this quote were the words Donald Trump on Perry
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: High School mass shooting one day after and in the
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: image that bush Ard Junior posted on Facebook, he wrote,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: seems relevant today. So that was it. But the posts
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: caught the attention of Perry County sheriff and that night,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: at almost midnight, four officers came to his door, to
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: the door of you know, Bushard Junior. They had a warrant.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: They handcuffed him and drove him to jail, and the
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: video this video was released by the Intercept, showing him
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: as he's arriving at the jail. An officer reads the war.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Out of school.
• 30:02
  Speaker 10: It's referring to the school. I have no idea how
• 30:05
  Speaker 10: that's going on, and I ain't get.
• 30:08
  Speaker 14: I played on Facebook.
• 30:12
  Speaker 11: They arrested him and charged him with making a threat
• 30:16
  Speaker 11: of mass violence on a school, which is like a
• 30:19
  Speaker 11: class of E felony or something like that. So they
• 30:22
  Speaker 11: put him in jail. The judge that a two million
• 30:24
  Speaker 11: dollars bond, which is pretty insanely high for any crime.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: So essentially the sheriff said that people could read bush
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: Art's Junior's post as a possible future threat on a
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: local school. And it's just this kind of shocking moment
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: in America where someone can go to jail for more
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: than thirty days for posting a meme on Facebook. I mean,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: this is like, this is like, it's like we've we've
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: reached another level.
• 30:54
  Speaker 15: And it was.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: It was so shocking that the Intercept when it published
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: this article on October twenty third, and then there was
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: clearly kind of a backlash, and the charges were finally
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: dropped in the very end of October, and he was
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: released from jail to following the following week after October
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: twenty third.
• 31:10
  Speaker 10: So they dropped the charges and then he's now he's free.
• 31:13
  Speaker 7: How do you feel right now, thanks to all and
• 31:17
  Speaker 7: any supporters out there, and very happy to be going home.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: I didn't and I didn't sink to be made a sensation,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: but here we are. But yeah, that's about all I
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: say right now. And the folks at Fire believe it
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: was in large part due to kind of the pressure,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: both the media pressure from continued reporting on this case,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: but also kind of the reality there there was nothing
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: to stand on right, it's just somebody posting a meme.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Is is this something? Have we ever seen anything at
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: this level before?
• 32:01
  Speaker 10: I've not seen anything like that.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: This is the new world order almost like that that
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: that that that we've entered, right, have you, like, have
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: you ever heard of anything like this before?
• 32:15
  Speaker 15: Mark?
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: I mean not since I was really young during the
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Red Scare of the fifties, when people I know whose
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: parents were fired from their jobs, whether they were airline
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: mechanics or physicians or whatever, they were teachers were being
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: fired here in Baltimore, and the only thing that stopped
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: it was the end of McCarthy and and the and
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: oddly enought the beginning of Eisenhower began to change what
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: was happening. But I think that we're facing something the
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: very that similar moment is happening now, and I think
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: that it's creeping. This is not this is not something
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: that's that is overt and in your face every day,
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: But it's undermining our educational institutions, is undermining our freedoms,
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: and it's seeping in with the power of the right
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: taking over the country. So I think it's almost like
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: again if you go back and I don't like I
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: don't usually deal with hyperbole, but if you go back
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: to nineteen thirty one Germany and study how slowly it
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: moved and what it did who they went after the
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: same process has happened now in this country. We're on
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: a cusp. Look are broadcast where we are now, the
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: real news places like this, this is under threat, and
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: I think that'll be the first line. So I think
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: that one of the most important parts for me in
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: doing this work with you at this moment is beginning
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: to really sound the alarm, but also talk about people
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: who are standing up to it and how you organize
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: and fight against it.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Well, we'll get to organizing and fighting against it. We
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: will get there, folks. So when I spoke with David,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: part of my question for him was what do we
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: know about what's behind the scene about these situations about
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: so we know that, for instance, hundreds of people have
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: lost their jobs or face backlash for their response to
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: the Charlie Kirk assassination. We know that nearly three hundred
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: people have been investigated at the Pentagon, so Pentagon employees
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: who are investigated for their own responsor their own views.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: We know that State Department revoked the visas of several
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: people who spoke out against Kirk and Mark, did you
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: follow this at all? There's like it's really crazy because
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: they're totally blaytant where the State Department is actually retweeting
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: tweets by people other things that people have posted online
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: and it basically says, don't like it, visa revoked. I mean,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: it's like it's it's almost like this this viral kind
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: of like amusing joke, mean, but they're actually responding to
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: to to what people have posted online in response to Kirk.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: And we know that at least six people have lost
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: their visas this way, someone from Argentina, South Africa, Mexico, Brazil, Germany,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and Paraguay and they've been shipped out and they I
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: don't you know, I don't know the but that's but
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: that's what at least the State Department said online.
• 35:27
  Speaker 10: I'm true.
• 35:27
  Speaker 6: We should not be giving visas to people who are
• 35:29
  Speaker 6: going to come to the United States and do things
• 35:31
  Speaker 6: like celebrate the murder, the execution, the assassination of a
• 35:35
  Speaker 6: political figure. We should not, and if they're already here,
• 35:38
  Speaker 6: we should be revoking their visa.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: So I wanted to understand, like, what's behind the scenes here,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: like how are people being targeted? And this is something
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: we don't hear a lot about. Uh, you know, in
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: the news, we hear a lot about you know, this
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: professor was fired, or this other people you know is
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: trying to create a lawsuit to to get their jobs back,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: or these other people from these different employment were fired
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: for this. But we don't necessarily understand kind of what
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: the minute shit is behind this that's driving these firing
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: because they're not by accident, and in many cases they're
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: kind of lesee coordinated campaigns. I'm not saying nationally coordinated,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: but it's a process that is actually happening and coordinated
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: so that people then get to a place in which
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: they are fired or so that powerful people take these decisions.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: So this is what I'm what I sat down part
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: of what I sat down with David Rubin about and
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: I really wanted to understand kind of what was actually happening.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: How are people being targeted? And David Rubin said, no,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: this isn't by accident.
• 36:41
  Speaker 11: I would say there is a campaign or many multiple
• 36:45
  Speaker 11: smaller campaigns. Certain influencers like libs of TikTok, or like
• 36:50
  Speaker 11: Scott Presler or like Robbie Starbuck, if you look at
• 36:54
  Speaker 11: them like they were kind of crowdsourcing comments from people
• 36:59
  Speaker 11: that they disagree with that said something about Charlie Kirk,
• 37:03
  Speaker 11: you know, and then all their followers were going and
• 37:06
  Speaker 11: tweeting to that person's boss and saying, oh, you employed
• 37:10
  Speaker 11: this person, like you should fire them, you have to
• 37:12
  Speaker 11: fire them.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: And he explained to me that this is very much
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: a coordinated campaign, in which he called it a heckler's
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: veto do you know this term? Yes? Good. So it's
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: basically the idea that individuals who aren't directly impacted by
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: these professors, so they're not necessarily the professor's students. I mean,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: it might be a student or another student, but it's
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: usually in individuals that have nothing to do with that
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: local situation who then find something online or they find
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: a tweet online from these professors, and then they start
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: to push it out virally and say and promote this
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: to then more powerful people. Then it gets picked up
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: by viral right wing or conservative influencers, usually on Twitter,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: but sometimes elsewhere like libs of TikTok and other things.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: And this is how many of these firings have actually happened,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: where we've seen this coordinated campaign against left individuals speaking
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: out in the wake of Kirk's assassination or standing up
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: in defense of Palestine.
• 38:16
  Speaker 11: And that's one area in First Amendment law that needs
• 38:21
  Speaker 11: to be addressed. Is this Heckler's veto that happens when
• 38:26
  Speaker 11: politically interested but like otherwise diffuse groups get really interested
• 38:32
  Speaker 11: and keyed in on something. And you know, if a
• 38:35
  Speaker 11: teacher says something and their students' parents have a problem
• 38:39
  Speaker 11: with it, like maybe that's one thing, but if like
• 38:43
  Speaker 11: some random right wing or whatever left wing podcaster and
• 38:50
  Speaker 11: you know, all their fans don't like it, and then
• 38:52
  Speaker 11: they send a bunch of emails and make a bunch
• 38:55
  Speaker 11: of calls to the.
• 38:56
  Speaker 10: School, like that is very anti free speech culture.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that, for instance, Charlie Kirk's own
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: group that he founded, Turning Point USA, has its own
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: professor watch lists. Yes, so these are professors left and
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: progressive professors. Some of these individuals who are then kind
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: of pointed out detailed online and then you know this,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: the campaigns raised against their you know, raised for their
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: firing are individuals who are on this Turning Point USA
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: watch list.
• 39:30
  Speaker 12: Turning Point USA leaders continue to publish an online database
• 39:34
  Speaker 12: of university professors.
• 39:35
  Speaker 7: They say, quote advanced leftist propaganda in the classroom.
• 39:40
  Speaker 14: I fear that this is the start of some kind
• 39:42
  Speaker 14: of new wave of political violence on college campuses, and
• 39:45
  Speaker 14: that folks, for instance, on the professor watch list could
• 39:49
  Speaker 14: be targeted as well.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: And you know, it's important to point out that this
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: or isn't just one group that's doing this. It's being
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: pushed by many different groups, by many different far right
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: social social media influencers. But it is, it is happening,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: and it's in many ways coordinated. So here's one very
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: very specific example mark that I'm going to take you
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: to Clemson University for a second. Okay, I spoke with Alan.
• 40:23
  Speaker 15: Chain, I'm the legal director at the ACLU of South Carolina.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: And they've been very focused on this one case around
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: a professor named Joshua Breggy. Breggie is an assistant professor
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: in the Department of Environmental Engineering and Earth Sciences. And then,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: following Charlie Kirk's murder, he reposted a friend's post on Facebook.
• 40:47
  Speaker 15: That was vehemently non violent, but at the same time
• 40:52
  Speaker 15: pointed out the conflict between on the one hand, the
• 41:00
  Speaker 15: distant lack of empathy by mister Kirk, and on the
• 41:03
  Speaker 15: other hand, the militant demand for empathy by mister Kirk's
• 41:08
  Speaker 15: supporters in the wake of his death.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: What's interesting about this case is it's so benign, right. So,
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: the post first denounces Kirk's assassination and clearly the violence.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: It expresses grief for Kirk's friends and family, but it
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: also points out the hypocrisy of Kirk's own violent discourse,
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: which is something we've seen a lot online by people
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: in the response right. And so the post said in
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: one quote, it sounds to me like karma is sometimes
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: swift and ironic, as Kirk said, play certain games, win
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: certain prizes, and that's probably the most demonizing phrase in
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: the post.
• 41:44
  Speaker 15: Now, immediately after doctor Greggy posted that on Facebook, nothing happened.
• 41:49
  Speaker 15: Doctor Reggy does not have a particularly large Facebook profile.
• 41:54
  Speaker 15: He's a climate scientist, not a huge online presence really
• 41:59
  Speaker 15: at all. And as news was starting to break about
• 42:05
  Speaker 15: some of the retaliation against folks for their speech, doctor
• 42:09
  Speaker 15: Breggie went ahead and made his post private, just in
• 42:14
  Speaker 15: an abundance of caution. A few hours after that happened,
• 42:18
  Speaker 15: Clemson College Republicans, which is an on campus student group
• 42:22
  Speaker 15: reposted a portion of doctor Breggy's Facebook post, describing it
• 42:27
  Speaker 15: as a now deleted post, along with some old profile
• 42:32
  Speaker 15: pictures of his, one of which had a Climate Changes
• 42:37
  Speaker 15: Real sign and the other one which had a Black
• 42:39
  Speaker 15: Lives Matter banner, and tagged libs of TikTok as well
• 42:45
  Speaker 15: as some other political profiles, and demanded that Clemson fire him.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: So this then makes its way all the way up
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: to the South Carolina State House represented Thomas Beach, who
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: also adds fuel to the campaign before you know, so
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: it's powerful elected representatives who are lobbying leaders at Clemson University.
• 43:04
  Speaker 15: That's exactly right. And so the Clemson College Republicans post
• 43:09
  Speaker 15: and they're tagging of libs of TikTok is really what
• 43:13
  Speaker 15: ignited this social media firestorm that was directed at doctor
• 43:18
  Speaker 15: Reggie as well as one other Clemson professor and then
• 43:21
  Speaker 15: really at Clemson itself. And so you see some posts
• 43:26
  Speaker 15: like give me a second, I can pull them up.
• 43:29
  Speaker 15: So you see folks like Representative Thomas Beach, who's there
• 43:33
  Speaker 15: in the Pickens area, reposting the Clemson College Republicans post
• 43:37
  Speaker 15: and saying, quote, another leftist and doctrinator has been identified
• 43:42
  Speaker 15: in the Clemson faculty. This is whose salary your dollars
• 43:46
  Speaker 15: are paying for. We can do better take action, fire
• 43:49
  Speaker 15: these radicals. And when that doesn't work, the threats become
• 43:57
  Speaker 15: increasingly more explicit, and they become more official as well,
• 44:03
  Speaker 15: and so you no longer just have fringe freedom Caucus
• 44:09
  Speaker 15: folks like April Chromer and Thomas Beach and Jordan Pace.
• 44:13
  Speaker 15: You see a letter from the Speaker of the House,
• 44:16
  Speaker 15: the President of the Senate on official General Assembly letterhead
• 44:21
  Speaker 15: going to the Clemson University decision makers saying your funding
• 44:27
  Speaker 15: depends on you making the quote right decision here and
• 44:31
  Speaker 15: encouraging them to make to take decisive action. And so
• 44:34
  Speaker 15: there was really no question that lawmakers were giving Clemson
• 44:39
  Speaker 15: an ultimatum fire these professors or we're going to pull
• 44:43
  Speaker 15: your funding.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: So it's this kind of fluid, sometimes clear, sometimes unclear
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: campaign whereby certain local groups. In some cases it might be,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: you know, the local University Republicans group. In other cases,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: it might be other groups online who kind of find
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: these or who were actively looking for these types of
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: posts and then making it building a whole campaign. Then
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: it's getting pushed by social media influencers online. Two kind
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: of powerful right wing or conservative Republican leaders who are
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: then lobbing those schools or offices or businesses or whatever
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: it might be to get these people fired.
• 45:31
  Speaker 15: But over the course of five days, you see the
• 45:35
  Speaker 15: coercive tactics of lawmakers really start to erode Clemson's commitment
• 45:42
  Speaker 15: to the First Amendment. And then about five days later,
• 45:45
  Speaker 15: before doctor Breggie showed up to teach his first class
• 45:49
  Speaker 15: after the Facebook post, he was fired. He was dismissed
• 45:54
  Speaker 15: four cause and in a manner that really directly conflicts
• 45:58
  Speaker 15: with Clemson's own faculty manual.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: So it's this fascinating thing that's actually happening against left
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: and progressive in particular professors. But also we've seen this
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: elsewhere singled out by these by these kind of smaller groups.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: And what's what's interesting is that a lot of cases,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: like for instance, this one, not necessarily did did Professor
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: Breggy do anything. He didn't post. He reposted somebody else's
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: post that really wasn't that damning. But the fact that
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: he's a professor that is probably on their watch list
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: already that is left or progressive. He's a he's a
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: climate scientist in the environmental department, which which you know
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: clearly pro environment and whatnot. And so this is individual
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: they had clearly you know, pointed out as someone they
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: want to they want to get removed. And this is
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: like the epitome of what the Heckler's veto is. None
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: of Professor Breggy's you know, his students stood be beside
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: him up for them, the union sewed up for his
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: colleagues at Clemson University stood up in defense. And most
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: of this campaign against him was from groups or individuals
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: from outside Clemson University who have a clear political plan
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: to try and get him fired or removed because of
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: his views. And what does this do again? It goes
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: back to what we were talking to a very beginning mark,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: where it's not just the individual who has spoken up
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: or spoken out or has posted something online, but it
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: creates this chilling effect throughout the university and throughout other
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: places where people are afraid to speak out right. People
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: are afraid to speak out against Trump, against the Trump administration,
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: against other issues because they think, well, I might be next.
• 47:45
  Speaker 15: The disruption is not internal to these universities or colleges,
• 47:51
  Speaker 15: nor is it organic. It's manufactured. So we see a
• 47:56
  Speaker 15: coordinated effort to identify people within a d who made
• 48:01
  Speaker 15: posts about Charlie Kirk that could be used as ammunition
• 48:04
  Speaker 15: to push the universities to fire these people, not really
• 48:08
  Speaker 15: for their comments about Charlie Kirk. I mean you see
• 48:11
  Speaker 15: it in my case where it's really more about the
• 48:13
  Speaker 15: Black Lives matter and the climate science is real sort
• 48:17
  Speaker 15: of positions, and the Charlie Kirk comment is just the
• 48:22
  Speaker 15: mechanism by which they can push their agenda into the
• 48:25
  Speaker 15: universities and push out people who carry views that they
• 48:29
  Speaker 15: don't like anymore. And so it was political opportunism of
• 48:36
  Speaker 15: the most discouraging sort, where you have a national tragedy,
• 48:42
  Speaker 15: right like, regardless of how you feel about Charlie Kirk
• 48:45
  Speaker 15: and his views, the idea that someone was gunned down
• 48:48
  Speaker 15: at a public event because of those views should be
• 48:52
  Speaker 15: frightening to all of us. But then too, in the
• 48:55
  Speaker 15: hours following that, see an opportunity, and see on an
• 49:00
  Speaker 15: opportunity to because of public employees' views, drive them out
• 49:05
  Speaker 15: of the public workforce.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: And that's the goal really, you know, the bottom line
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: is to take out these professors, but also to create
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: this chilling effect around speech so that people are not
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: as vocal online and that people kind of restrict their speech.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: We saw it like from like what I mentioned the
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: very beginning of that one situation of this one survey
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: of individuals who were visa holders where eighty five percent
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: had changed their you know, their habits online. But I'm
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: sure that if we were to look at some sort
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: of other survey or other analysis that I don't have
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: in front of me, but if there was something like
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: that done, we would see a huge difference in how
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: people are interacting online over social media and what they
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: are posting, what people are afraid to post, and how
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: that's impacting you know, academic freedom at universities. And I
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: think that one of the things we have to think
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: to account here.
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: Of the people who are in power in Washington now
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: when you look advance hex Seth Rubio.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: As much as some people.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Who are liberal on the left don't want to admit it,
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: these are really really brilliant men who are highly organized
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: and know how to enter and and that's what's pushing
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: this kind of this right wing takeover of everything going on.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: And the killing of free speech.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: And I think that that is something that really has
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: to be delved into deeply to understand who these who
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: these people are on the powers behind the throne, what
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: policies are putting in place, how they support what's going
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: on in these universities.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: And I think that.
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: That that that people have to connect these dots to
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: understand what we're up against and what we're facing. Yeah,
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: as I said earlier, I think this is this is
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: the most dangerous moment in American history in a long time.
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: And I think what you just described is the tip
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: of the iceberg. Yeah, it is going to get deeper
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: and more intense over the next two or the next
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: several years in this administration. And and in a pure
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: political sense, one of the things that I've been reading
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: a lot about, writing about, and think about how to
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: produce is how weak the opposition is, how this organized
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: the opposition is, how there's no game plan among people
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: on the left or Democrats about how to confront this
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: and stop it. And I think that that what you
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: are just describing. Again, if you go back to the
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: nineteen thirties and the early part of this in this country,
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: in the in the in the in the nineteen tens
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: and the nineteen thirties in Germany, this is how it
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: began you target what's with me a weak link universities,
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: you target what to get begin the process, and that's
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: what we're witness. That's why what we just described is
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: really critically important to understand the context of how the
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: right pushes power.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Two things I want to say that I think are
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: a little hopeful within this context. So bring particularly what
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: didn't mean to be so much Next, No, of course,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: So first off, the ACLU has this case.
• 52:24
  Speaker 15: Yeah, we filed a complaint and shortly thereafter we filed
• 52:27
  Speaker 15: a motion for a preliminary injunction which asked the court
• 52:31
  Speaker 15: to rule that we are likely to prevail on the
• 52:34
  Speaker 15: merits of our First Amendment claim and to order Clemson
• 52:37
  Speaker 15: to reinstate doctor Breggie as faculty, put him back on
• 52:41
  Speaker 15: the payroll, remove any adverse employment findings, and treat him
• 52:46
  Speaker 15: as if he's not done anything wrong, which we don't
• 52:51
  Speaker 15: think he's done anything wrong, and we think that the
• 52:53
  Speaker 15: Firstmenment agrees with us.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: The timeline is slow. I asked them about the timeline.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: They said, well, we wish it was fast, or I
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: wish I could define the timeline, and that this is
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: but it's but it's happening, and that's what's important, and
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: that lawsuits like this are happening and pushing back around
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: the country. I thought it was really interesting because I've
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: been googling this in recent days and if you google
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: for Charlie Kirk firing, if you google those words right now,
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: it's article after article of people pushing back, of lawsuits
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: against universities, against school districts, of lawyers picking up people's cases,
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: of trying to get people rehired. And I think that's
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: really like, I think it's really hopeful that if you
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: had googled the same thing just a couple of months ago,
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: then you would have seen story after story of people
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: being fired. And now you're seeing story after story of
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: people of fighting back and trying to be rehired because,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: you know, standing up for their speech, free speech rights.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: So I think that's that's one thing that is that
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: is that is really really key. There's a couple of
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: the things that you know, I've been taught, Like, like
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: I mentioned, you know, Mark, I've been speaking to a
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: lot of people in recent days, and one of the
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: things that was that almost everyone told me was that, yes,
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: of course kind of cancel culture happens on both the
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: right and the left, and that's what we've seen in
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: recent administrations in recent years, but that this what we're
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: seeing now is a whole new level, right, and that
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: things are bad and getting worse, like you've mentioned and McCarthyism,
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: and the mccarthurs moment is kind of the closest reference
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: that almost all these people, all these different staff attorneys
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: and victims and any people that I've been speaking with,
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: this is like the main moment that so many of
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: them reference, you know, of being particularly a US reference,
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: right of like where we are now and what this
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: looks like.
• 54:47
  Speaker 9: One communist on the plat of one universality is one
• 54:51
  Speaker 9: communist who man one communist, so only amera American advisors
• 55:05
  Speaker 9: at y'all top was one communist too many? And even
• 55:14
  Speaker 9: even if there were only one Communist in the State department,
• 55:18
  Speaker 9: even if there are only one Communist in the State department,
• 55:21
  Speaker 9: that would still be one communist too many.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: And Mark, I wanted to come back to to Lisa
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: Femia just for a second. Remember she's from from e
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: f f UH, this free speech rights organization out in
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: the Bay Area, because I asked her one, one specific
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: thing about our definition of free speech, you know, because
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: for me. I've for a long time felt like we're
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: seeing an attempt to redefine free speech in America. Where
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: it's not just you know, your your right to say
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: anything you want, where it's not it's it's clearly not
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: right now your right to protest, because we've seen these
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: attacks against pro Palestinian protests and obviously Trump is calling
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: out the National Guard against protests and things. So clearly
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: there's this push to try and almost redefine what we
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: understand as free speech. And I think kind of Trump's
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: first day in office is really clear was a really
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: clear moment in defining that right. This is when he
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: signed his executive order which was called Restoring Freedom of
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: Speech and ending Federal Censorship. You know, he spoke about
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: this in his inauguration.
• 56:34
  Speaker 16: After years and years of illegal and unconstitutional federal efforts
• 56:38
  Speaker 16: to restrict free expression. I will also sign an executive
• 56:43
  Speaker 16: order to immediately stop all government censorship and bring back
• 56:47
  Speaker 16: free speech to America.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: I think that there was a moment where you saw
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: Trump and allies make these free speech arguments in a
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: way that you know, meant free speech for them, but
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: not necessarily for people they disagreed with. I think in
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: that early executive order on free speech, you could tell
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: it wasn't, you know, for many for a variety of reasons,
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: you could probably tell this wasn't, like, you know, a
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: fully thought out full protection of free speech, because it
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: talked only about speech from the previous administration, as if
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: this hasn't been a push and pull in American history
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: since the founding. But I think recently, I'm not even sure.
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: I think the administration in some ways has dropped the
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: guys and has talked about speech in a way that
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: is now categorizing speech they don't like as potential domestic
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: terrorism or threats, trying to push speech into national security area,
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: which is sort of an easier area of the law
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: for the administration to kind of get away with what
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: it wants to. And I'm not sure I'm even seeing
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: the administration talk about speech in the way that it
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: did even last year anymore. And you see this with
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: the even like Trump discussing, you know, his executive order
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: on flag burning.
• 58:19
  Speaker 16: And we've made it one year penalty for inciting riots.
• 58:25
  Speaker 16: We took the freedom of speech away because that's been
• 58:27
  Speaker 16: through the courts, and the courts said you have freedom
• 58:31
  Speaker 16: of speech but what has happened is when they burn
• 58:35
  Speaker 16: a flag, it agitates.
• 58:36
  Speaker 11: And you end up with riots.
• 58:38
  Speaker 16: So we're going on that basis. We're looking at it
• 58:40
  Speaker 16: from not from the freedom of speech, which I always
• 58:43
  Speaker 16: felt strongly about but never passed the courts.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: It's like, you know, maybe maybe we don't need free speech.
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: Like I think, the tone has shifted, and we've almost
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: moved beyond.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: Some of some of the the.
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: Ideas that they were expressing before into a new area
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: where they treat speech that is against their policies or
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: their administration as a direct threat to the United States.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: Lisa's quote on this, what she said to me, I
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: think was just so powerful. She's like, we're at a
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: whole new level. It's not just about the discourse or
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: justification of free speech for my people now fewer people.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: It's now just an open attack on free speech itself.
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: And Trump feels like he doesn't even have to play
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: lip service to it.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: It's a concerning shift.
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: I've found it troubling, to say the least.
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: Right now, I think that first of all, oh, Bernard,
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: American flag, Hey, it is against the law, and you
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: can use that law to attack people, arrest them and
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: go after them has been done a a long time.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: He was done in the sixties, and I had people
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: and friends of mine who are arrested for burning a
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: flag and protests in this country. And then when you
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: add that to this administration's or William speak about free speech,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: they're at the doorstep. And I think that, as I
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: said earlier, Trump is a figurehead.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: He's not the danger.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: He's an idiot, but he's surrounded by brilliant minds who
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: are organizing this push. And I was spelllling it like
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: the German push takeover take of this country. And I
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: think that one of the things that's really important for
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: this particular series we're doing and for all of us
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: to do, is to begin to bring it to light,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: to bring the stories to light, so people know what's
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: happening around this country at this moment that no one
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: sees because the stories you just told, the examples you gave,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: most people aren't thinking about them because they're tucked away,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: they're not in front of you.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: And I think that it has to be exposed.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: And we have to raise the alarm and talk to
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: people who are fighting and organizing against it.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: So Mark, we did that recording quite a few months ago,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: and since then there's been quite a few updates, and
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: I want to run through some of these things because
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: it's important for several reasons. First off, according to a
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: Reuter's investigation from November twenty twenty five, roughly six hundred
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: people were fired, disciplined, investigated, or spended due to online
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: posts following Charlie Kirk's murder. Six hundred. In fact, they
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: compare it to an ideological purge. But many of those
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: victims have been pushing back and it has made a difference.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: So didn't you see there's a professor who was fired
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: over a social media post about the killing of Charlie
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: Kirk is now being reinstated.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 13: Hundreds of thousands of.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: So if you remember Joshua Breggy, he's the professor from
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: Clemson University. He was fired on September twenty sixth. He
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: sued the university through the ACLU, saying that his termination
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: was a violation of the First Amendment. And then in
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: early January he settled with Clemson University. They agreed to
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: rescind his termination, pay his salary and benefits throughout the
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: original term of his employment. He didn't teach this last semester,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: but he received payment. He agreed to drop his lawsuit
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: and resign from his position as of May fifteenth, just
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: last month, and the Clemson provosts also agreed to provide
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: letters of recommendation. Alan Cheney, who I interviewed, he's the
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: legal director of the ACLU in South Carolina. He said, quote,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: we're honored to represent doctor Breggie and to reach an
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: agreement that restores his employment. So good news clearly in
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: the case of Joshua Breggy, because he pushed back and
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: fought for it. Also in January, in New York, the
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: movement to reinstate the fired for at Cuney, the City
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: University of New York was partially successful. So the university
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: found that three of the four adjuncts were once again
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: eligible for employment at Brooklyn College. And that includes Karina Moulin.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: She was one of the professors I spoke with at
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: the beginning of this episode. She too was reinstated. They're
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: still fighting, however, to get the last of the fired
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: for reinstated. And the last person that I wanted to
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: bring in here an update was about Larry Burchard Junior Mark.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember, he was the retired
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: policeman from Tennessee who was chilled for thirty seven days
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: for posting a Trump mean on Facebook following Kirk's killing.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: So he settled again in May and quote unlawful incarceration
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: lawsuit for eight hundred and thirty five thousand dollars. So
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: these are all like really hopeful steps. You also have
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: the former Columbia University student Mahamu Khalil. He's free, you know,
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: he's not in jail, but of course he's battling in
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: the courts to remain free. I guess the overall vision here,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: Mark is just the simple fact that organizing, fighting, pushing
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: back can make a difference. And I think like that's
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: just such an important theme to end up on here,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: is that despite the attacks on free speech that are
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: clearly happening throughout the United States, that are being pushed
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: by the Trump administration, what you have and what we've
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: seen over the last six seven, eight months are people
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: standing up, people fighting back, and of course not in
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: all cases, but in many cases they're being successful and
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: their rights are being defended. I'm glad you let all
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: that out. I think that it's really incredly important for people.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: To understand that it's not just about people limiting our
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: free speech. He's about the strugle to fight for free
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: speech and people standing up to it and not letting
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: that go, and the bravery of people to lose their lovelihood,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: to lose the life that they created because they stood
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: up for free speech. It's the most fundamental right in
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: this country to stand up and be heard, to say
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: what you believe and not and not be afraid that
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: the law is going to come against you because you did.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: And I think that.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: The more examples that we can give, as in these
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: podcasts that we do, to tell the stories of people
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: fighting for the free speech that where it's under attack,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: where it's one, it's fight back or important for people
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: to learn and understand. To keep that in front because
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: most people don't see it because it's not it's not there.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: But what the people you describe, their voices have to
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: be heard, their stories have to be heard. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: because you're next. You may not your name won't be known,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: but you're next if you don't stand up.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: Hi, folks, thanks for listening. We are so excited to
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: have this series up and running. We've been working on
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: it for a year, and next.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: Week we look back into the past at how free
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: speech battles are the past help to find the abolitionists
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: and civil rights movements and what they mean today. That's
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: the next time on the Battle for Free Speech.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed today's podcast and you like this series,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: please do us a favor. Go to your podcasting app
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: and give us a like, follow a subscribe, or tell
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: a friend about it and leave us a comment or
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: a review. It really helps to spread the word about
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: the show and the state of free speech in the
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: United States today. Also, please make sure to sign up
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: for the Real News Networks newsletter so you never miss
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: an episode. You can find that at therealnews dot com,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: or you can click on the links in the show
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: notes if you'd like to find out more about the
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: stories we talked about today in this episode, we've added
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: some links also in the show notes. The Battle for
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: Free Speech is a production of the Real News. Thanks
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: for listening, See you next time.