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Talks to Simon Moore about his choice of Terror of the Zygons (3/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:23
  None. Hamster with a Blump Pen Knife
• 0:35
  For doing quicker, quicker, quicker.
• 0:39
  Welcome back to our Hamster with a Blump Penknife.
• 0:42
  The Doctor Who Commentary Podcast Mr. Simon Moore Hello.
• 0:47
  Hello again. My God, we're still.
• 0:49
  Here we're saying hello to each other four times in one day.
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  It's like. One day.
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  The thing is, these will go out. It will go out every other day,
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  so people will be listening to you for a week and 1/2.
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  Or perhaps not. They will.
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  They will. I've got a question for you.
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  Before we go into episode three, We talked about the visual
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  nature of the Zygons and how they transferred from the
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  classic series to the new series.
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  What about in storytelling terms?
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  Like, is this a a monster for the 70s or does it transfer
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  quite well into sort of contemporary storytelling?
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  Look, the to be completely fair to the the newer stuff with the
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  Zygons. The Zygons only had one outing
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  in the original series, and inevitably when monsters come
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  back, they end up kind of being different.
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  Whether it's the Daleks or the side middle of the Centaurus,
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  they're always actually a bit different to that first go
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  round. And so if we had have had a
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  second Zygons story in the classic series, I suspect it
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  wouldn't have been as faithful to terror of the Zygons as I
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  would have liked it to be. Having said that, my main issue
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  with the Zygons look the the Zygons in this, it's it's, you
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  know you're in a rural area, you're remote.
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  It's it's what I was saying is sort of in some of the earlier
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  episodes about the the sense of isolation you're getting.
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  And I think that's what makes it creepy.
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  And I think that works really well with the Zygons, the fact
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  that they are, you know, they they take on human form and so
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  on. And I think so I think giving
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  them a different treatment in the new series is
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  understandable. But it doesn't it doesn't have
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  the same sort of chilling aspect to it that that this brings.
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  It's like it's like they've just done a different monster with
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  with the same basic premise which is understandable and fine
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  and I I won't hold that against them.
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  But yeah, no, it needs to be on a Scottish More or Sussex More
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  or whatever the hell it is to be particularly effective.
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  I'm not going to ask you to say too much because I want to
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  listen to your Flight for Entirety episode next week, and
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  it's probably free. I'm sure you're going to have
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  lots of things to say, though. I might.
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  The one thing that did surprise me was when they turned up in
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  Day of the Doctor in a in a comedy subplot and I was like,
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  what's this like? This is very different from
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  Terror The Zygons. That was that was, that was the
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  disappointing thing. I, I, I I found them being used
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  as a comedy subplot as you just described.
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  I think that was very disappointing for that
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  anniversary story. And then I over there, do you
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  think they try and redress that after that, don't they with the
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  two parter? And I've heard every opinion
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  from that is my least favorite of the new series to this is
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  exactly what they should be doing.
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  I think that's quite divisive that 2 parter.
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  Zygon 2 parter. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Yeah, no, it was just divisive. I I thought it was.
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  I think it's quite fine. I mean the the worst, the worst
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  I would say about it is that it's quite good.
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  You know what I mean? I I I, I, I, I I don't love it,
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  but I certainly don't hate it. It's curious that you're saying
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  that it's a divisive. I think there's many other
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  possible divisive episodes. I followed Matt Michael's
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  episode A Day Reviews with some interest.
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  He's a smart cookie who wrote for Doctor Who Magazine and
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  could write very concise, very smart reviews in sort of just
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  paragraph. And yeah, he went to town on the
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  second episode of that Zygon 2 part I'll send you.
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  I'll send you a link. It's quite an interesting read.
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  OK. Yeah, and a quick one at that.
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  It's a paragraph, so you know. No, is it?
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  Is it that damning, is it? It's pretty damning.
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  Well, look, let's skip into episode 3 and see just if the
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  Scarasan is going to murder the Doctor in 321.
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  Off we go. Where we go diddly dumb, diddly
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  dumb. Are you a fan of stop motion
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  creatures? Have you seen many of the movies
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  that I was brought up on those bits?
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  So and and some terrible B movies as well.
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  So I was well well adjusted to it before I saw the Scaras and.
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  No, I I think I always preferred like stupid puppets rather than
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  stop motion. Give me an example of a stupid
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  puppet. Where to start?
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  A band rules. For example, probably not.
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  Not the example, I'd probably go to 1st, but.
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  A very stupid puppet. Destroy him.
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  POV shot and he says what you want every Doctor villain to
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  say. Die, Doctor, die and.
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  Again, can I just say the suckers on the side of Breton's
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  head? And I hate to keep using this
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  word but I will are moist like the the ends the sides of the
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  suckers. There's there's a moisture to
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  them it they they've had Vaseline rubbed them on the
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  water. It is.
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  And yes, that's a girl, and the Scarrison sort of using its
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  claw. I'm not going anywhere near
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  moist suckers, all right? Well, I assume they're suckers.
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  Well, it wasn't nice touch. Oh, oh, just that.
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  Just that massaging movement that the Zygons hands make and.
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  Just as the Brigadier. Is very sensual.
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  He had his little mate, didn't he?
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  His soldier mate, zygote bro. Tom's got his number 2 here at
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  the console. That the the choice of the
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  whispering. I think that was a solid choice.
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  Exactly. Oh no, don't you?
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  That's where you don't shoot them.
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  You don't shoot them from below. I can see the wrinkles in the
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  costumes there. Yeah that's unfortunate and you
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  can see the joints between the where the where the boots little
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  Daigon booties don't quite match the Zygon travel.
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  So, so, I mean, this stuff was not meant to be examined in the
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  way that we do. No, I know.
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  But we love doing it because we we have huge affection for it.
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  But. But I don't mind.
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  It's it's like, you know, for goodness sake, you go to the
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  theatre and you see you know things.
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  It's not real. You know, it's it's it's an
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  impression and and that's that's what I feel when I'm watching
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  things like this, yeah. Sometimes when I'm in the
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  theatre, something visibly goes wrong.
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  How the actors improvise around it is sometimes the most joyous
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  moment of the night. Exactly, yeah.
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  When they keep it together, it's fantastic.
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  Oh look, a ceiling. I see you keep your eyes out on
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  subsequent views. Did we have to kill Angus?
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  Lenny, He's he's going to go in, he said.
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  So. But it does give Sister Lamont a
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  chance. I just.
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  Yeah, I just realized he's wearing a cardigan over a
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  jumper. Is that a thing you do?
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  It's the most Scottish thing you could possibly do, yes.
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  Right. OK.
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  It's it's very cold in the Highlands.
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  Yeah, actually, he's wearing like a sort of a twig Jagger.
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  I think instead of just having like an electronic bug the the
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  deers eyes that move. Yeah.
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  That's quite creepy as well. Yeah, I mean, so it's very old
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  school kind of, you know, the the the eyes in the in the
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  painting or the eyes on the on the head thing move of their own
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  accord. It's better than it being just a
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  like a red glow. I think that's much more
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  interesting. But I have seen enough Carry On
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  movies to know that can be extremely comical and that sort
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  of thing, yeah. What, the eyes?
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  Yeah, yeah, you're right. Actually, it can.
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  It could have looked like we could have been laughing
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  hysterically, I said. But we don't for some reason.
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  Again, it's because Angus Lenny is plays it with conviction.
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  You know, the way he's horrified by the when he's dusting it, you
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  know, look at that mud. Yeah, that's that's Scotland is
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  the one PLA. Have you spent much time in
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  Scotland? Not very much, but have been
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  there. I know this isn't Scotland, but
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  it's supposed to be. It's the one place in the world
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  I find where, if it the weather's miserable, it's
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  somehow still very beautiful. Yeah, the ground.
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  Well, that's why I love this. This kind of foggy, miserable
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  weather as beauty. It's, it's.
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  It's. It's not something you see very
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  often, is it? No, we do get a little bit of in
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  the snowy mountains down South here, but not not not nearly
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  like this, but. Whereabouts are you?
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  No, I I'm in Sydney, but in terms of the Snowy mountains,
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  which is between here in Melbourne where we do have
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  allegedly ski fields, but there are the, the topography is not
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  dissimilar in places to that sort of Scottish in places.
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  And when it's bleak, it's, it's bleak, put it that way.
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  I mean, you're elevated sort of somewhat.
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  Yeah, sometimes. I fear the bleakest weather
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  you're ever going to see is a is a midwinter English day.
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  But. Absolutely.
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  Oh, absolutely. It's fantastic.
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  I love that. Well, it's perfect for for this
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  sort of horror. Exactly, exactly.
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  I think it's why the weather is I love the weather in Britain.
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  Fogle Castle. Now that is a painting or no a.
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  But it's another great set, this.
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  Oh, yes. But again, that's a set that
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  they'd have been able to just wheel out of their store because
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  they have castles in stock. They're doing period dramas
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  every other day, you know. Exactly.
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  Oh, this is great. My family have served this
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  country for seven centuries. You know, that seems not to
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  count these days. And the fact that he's there in
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  the doorway, he doesn't care. He's like, oh, hi, yes, exactly.
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  Oh, hi. Hello.
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  Brilliant. And I do think the way Woodnutt
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  differentiates the Duke Ambrosom and the Duke Hasbrosom, it's
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  three very different characters, yeah.
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  Exactly. Yeah.
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  He's thought about it. Someone's thought about it.
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  And that's brilliant. Yes, tell.
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  Him a few more times to take the piss out of the Brigadier before
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  he exits stage left. Exit Stage left.
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  Yes. Don't tell me you found the
• 10:42
  monster. The monster.
• 10:46
  Yes, it's so serious. Weird enough, that's where Bob
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  Bob Bank, Stewart said. This started that he wanted to
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  tell the Loch Ness Monster myth. I don't really think that's the
• 10:58
  focus of the story. No.
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  Oh, here we go. Yeah.
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  And there it is. Maybe because it's a subtle
• 11:09
  movement and then you get you get to cut to that that close up
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  pretty almost front on of Angus. Things like you said a couple of
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  times, there's nothing particularly sophisticated about
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  where how we just shot that. It's just done with conviction.
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  Yeah. Maybe that's it's.
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  It's the, well, placedness. Yeah.
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  It's it's also the right choices it's making.
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  It's not doing anything flashy, It's just making the right
• 11:31
  choices at the right time. That's why.
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  Whereas, I mean, even when Canfield's doing a Hartnell, you
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  know under the incredible restraints that they must have
• 11:38
  had there. Look at the direction of Dalek
• 11:40
  Master Plan 2 and how tight that is compared to the just kind of
• 11:45
  the laziness of the direction of something like the Chase in
• 11:47
  comparison and and there is no excuse for why the Chase should
• 11:51
  look like that. Whereas Dalek Master Plan 2
• 11:52
  looks like the way it does it's it's it's it's getting the
• 11:55
  actors hit their markets using sensible shots within the studio
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  that shows that doesn't reveal too much of the sets that you
• 12:01
  don't want to reveal. Yeah, the shot I always think of
• 12:04
  is sorry, away from Terry's icons.
• 12:06
  Never mind is in the Crusade where he pulls back from Barbara
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  talking, goes behind the curtain where Bernard K is in the
• 12:13
  shadows or silhouette. Yeah, it's beautiful.
• 12:16
  Absolutely. And then you get the Web planet
• 12:19
  next week and you're like, Oh dear, what's happened?
• 12:21
  Yeah. Well actually the direction of
• 12:23
  Web Planet is not as disastrous as it might be but it's it's the
• 12:26
  chase is the one that I always go to is the the fact that they
• 12:29
  just don't care. But at that point like it's it's
• 12:33
  it's shodly. That's one of the reasons I
• 12:35
  don't like that story is that it's just shodly made, even even
• 12:38
  by the standards of of then. Oh, gosh, here she comes.
• 12:42
  Sister Lemon, it's been a while since we've seen you.
• 12:47
  So he's got that nice familiarity with her because
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  obviously he knows her and then she dirts.
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  But I don't think there's anything wildly out of
• 12:55
  character. She's not sort of playing total
• 12:57
  evil, is she? She's playing the Stern.
• 13:00
  The Stern nurse, yeah. Yeah, well they're not hand
• 13:05
  compassionate and certainly when you see her later as the real
• 13:08
  sister Lemon, she is actually relatively compassionate.
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  Like she's she's, she has a softer, she plays it a bit
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  softer. And we get a we get a scene with
• 13:14
  the real jerk at the end, don't we, as well, yeah, that's the
• 13:16
  same. Although I remember him, all I
• 13:19
  remember is him saying, That's right, I am.
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  That's one of these very few lines.
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  This is. The line I always remember is
• 13:27
  when he goes, that's the TARDIS, doesn't he?
• 13:31
  How the hell do you know that? Here we go and.
• 13:38
  Then the loveliest thing that you get when it cuts up to the
• 13:41
  and the great thing is you see, you see it in long shot.
• 13:43
  Then you see the close up with the eyes missing and yeah just
• 13:45
  great. Oh, and here we are, everyone's
• 13:48
  favorite and look at the look at the the dead leaves on the
• 13:50
  ground. And it's just so evocative and
• 13:53
  and the sound, and even the fact that you get the sound of the
• 13:55
  the leaves crunching under foot, it's just so you get a sense of
• 13:58
  the temperature. That's basically up the road
• 14:00
  right now. Right.
• 14:02
  Yeah, I love those autumn forests like that.
• 14:05
  And the Zygon going through the trees there just sort of you
• 14:08
  catch a glimpse of it. Yep.
• 14:11
  Absolutely. What is that?
• 14:12
  We know what that is. Do you know, with Canfield back,
• 14:17
  because he's, he's not been directing the show since
• 14:20
  Inferno. So it's been a long old gap.
• 14:23
  And I think in that time UNIT did become familiar.
• 14:26
  The action did get a bit cartoony.
• 14:28
  It got very safe. I feel like he's come back and
• 14:31
  gone. No, no, no.
• 14:32
  Let's let's do this for real again.
• 14:34
  Absolutely, yeah. Which is nice.
• 14:36
  It's it's it's nice as they're bowing out.
• 14:38
  But I hate using that word Gritty but.
• 14:43
  Well yeah, I mean it's obviously not gritty in in in in actually
• 14:47
  gritty because it's you know, it's Doctor Who but
• 14:48
  comparatively speaking it's gritty.
• 14:50
  But that that should have Benton that we had then before.
• 14:53
  I I I I think the director also sets the tone of what the actors
• 14:57
  what's expected of the actors in terms of the level of their
• 14:59
  performance. I think Canfield is one.
• 15:01
  I mean I I heard he was a bit of a bastard and and you know ran
• 15:04
  the whole thing like a military operation.
• 15:06
  But you can really see like everyone is absolutely behaving
• 15:09
  their best. I know the Levine said that he
• 15:14
  always gave him extra time when they worked together.
• 15:16
  He loved working with Canfield because, you know, he would say
• 15:19
  we're going to make you look like a soldier this week, John.
• 15:22
  Yeah, yeah. And he did just then when he was
• 15:24
  walking up, you know, just that as he was moving into the sort
• 15:27
  of slightly tighter shot he he and looking up there, he really
• 15:29
  looked like a soldier looking for a fugitive.
• 15:32
  In fact, I think you are right in that he ran it sort of very
• 15:37
  military. Graham Harper was his second and
• 15:39
  he said, you know, it was absolutely they had those
• 15:42
  specific roles. Liz Slayden says.
• 15:44
  No autobiography about this story, that they all loved
• 15:47
  working for Canfield and they weren't going to get all the
• 15:50
  work done. They had to come in at the
• 15:52
  weekend for free. They weren't going to be paid
• 15:54
  for it because it was the BBC and they weren't going to
• 15:56
  Commission on it. And Douglas Canfield said, oh
• 15:58
  please, look, let's, let's do it, let's make this as good as
• 16:01
  we can possibly make it. And they all came in and worked.
• 16:03
  They had a buffet, they had a grand old time.
• 16:06
  So I think you're right. He stepped his home.
• 16:08
  Rehearsals or is that is that is that like they had extra filming
• 16:11
  shooting? It was one shooting, yeah, he
• 16:13
  wanted, he wanted to do extra bits and bobs to make this as
• 16:15
  good as it could be. And they all came in for him,
• 16:18
  all the technicians, all the actors.
• 16:21
  That's pretty good. I mean that that's, but that's
• 16:23
  what you want. You want people go in the extra
• 16:24
  mile because that's. What That's what it's about.
• 16:26
  Simon. This scene here.
• 16:28
  We go. It's just a.
• 16:30
  Scratch, I'm seven years old again.
• 16:32
  Yeah, I think this scared is not the right.
• 16:37
  You asked about me being scared before.
• 16:38
  I was never scared, but I think I was a bit freaked out and I
• 16:40
  think this is something that was very evocative and and I think I
• 16:43
  was freaked out and that blood down here.
• 16:45
  Yeah, I want to say it's the the sort of shock of the blood, but
• 16:48
  I think it was her eyes that got me more than anything.
• 16:51
  It's the fact that she's so completely calm, even though
• 16:53
  she's got all this blood coming off her and it's just a scratch.
• 16:57
  No, it's just not. Important, yeah.
• 17:00
  And then the. Right now, now.
• 17:01
  Look at her eyes now. Yes.
• 17:06
  That's how you do it, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's great.
• 17:10
  No one saw me. I'm just going.
• 17:12
  Brilliant. And did you see the economy of
• 17:13
  that? Then you cut to the Brigadier,
• 17:14
  the nursing sister great. The story can move on.
• 17:20
  Yeah, now we're seeing him again.
• 17:21
  Dead. They hadn't moved his body away
• 17:23
  or put a blanket over at you. There's always something a bit
• 17:25
  more grizzly about someone dying with their eyes open as well.
• 17:28
  Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. See, I don't know whether the
• 17:35
  Duke yes. Yeah, I do wonder if they should
• 17:39
  have made this connection a little earlier, but.
• 17:42
  Yes. Great Scott.
• 17:45
  He's Scott. He looks like he's in a bloody
• 17:48
  cartoon. Yes.
• 17:51
  I mean, he may have been cold and kind of a bit a bit nasty,
• 17:54
  but you know, he's a member of the aristocracy.
• 17:56
  That's probably just what they expected, so.
• 17:59
  Oh, I remember loving all of his.
• 18:01
  Her. Her poking her tongue out,
• 18:04
  blowing the dust in a minute. All of this?
• 18:07
  Yes. Yes, I feel like the the odds
• 18:15
  collapse with Doctor Who because the the way that she grabs the
• 18:20
  one book that opens the door into the spaceship.
• 18:24
  Yeah, I don't care. Look, you know, maybe she's got
• 18:30
  the one that the the only one that's not dusty because it's
• 18:32
  been, you know, fingered. Oh, well done.
• 18:35
  Well done. Good, Your Grace.
• 18:36
  Oh, I love that. It's a nickname.
• 18:40
  It's a Highland Games champion. It's very Gaelic.
• 18:47
  She's so chubby, isn't she? Just awesome.
• 18:53
  I almost wish she'd got to play evil, but of course we get that
• 18:56
  in Hand of Fear, don't we? We get that in Hand of Fear, and
• 18:59
  we get that a little bit when she's Android Sarah in Android
• 19:03
  Motion. Oh my.
• 19:04
  When she's Andrew Vaxx in The Sarah Jane Adventures, I mean,
• 19:07
  she chews the scenery on that one.
• 19:10
  Fabulous. But Barrylett said when when
• 19:17
  casting Elizabeth Slayton and Tom Baker that he wanted actors
• 19:22
  that would command the screen, even if nothing particularly
• 19:25
  exciting is going on. I think you've got a great
• 19:27
  example of that here. Absolutely, because she does
• 19:32
  business as well. It's not just.
• 19:34
  Yeah, she does, OK. No, she does.
• 19:37
  She's pulling it. OK.
• 19:38
  That's what I forgot. I think she's always aware of
• 19:42
  her place within the scene, you know, and she's always
• 19:45
  contributing something, even if she's silent.
• 19:47
  Yeah, without upstaging like she went upstage.
• 19:50
  When she's just in the background or something like in
• 19:53
  a sequence like this, she's playing it properly.
• 19:56
  Like again, it's. But skipping ahead to the 80s,
• 20:03
  just for a second, think about some of those long shots in
• 20:06
  stories like Time Flight, where you've got them all standing in
• 20:08
  a row and poor Sarah Sutton and Janet Fielding don't have a clue
• 20:11
  what they're doing in the scene. They're just sort of standing
• 20:13
  there waiting to say their lines.
• 20:16
  There is a skill to say nothing. Absolutely not 100%.
• 20:22
  But I mean Time Flight's got a whole lot of other problems and
• 20:24
  again it's it's no, but it's an example of of not of like the
• 20:28
  director shooting the set and the props as if they are perfect
• 20:32
  and so and yet they're not. Do you know what I mean?
• 20:35
  You've got to understand. Who do you imagine celebrated
• 20:40
  that story for this podcast? It's one of the FTE boys.
• 20:44
  Celebrated. Brendan.
• 20:46
  It was Brendan and he did a fine job, I've got to say.
• 20:52
  Well, look, I haven't actually looked.
• 20:54
  It's the only one of the season 19 Blu-ray box set that I
• 20:57
  haven't watched yet. I'm going to get around to
• 20:59
  watching it, but I mean, look, admittedly when I first saw it
• 21:04
  in 1982, I don't recall it being terrible.
• 21:08
  Do you know what I mean? Like when you're that age, you
• 21:10
  know, so 10 years when I'm 10 years old, I'm not thinking, oh
• 21:14
  God, this is so terrible compared to what we just saw in
• 21:17
  Earth Shock last week. It's something that I think we
• 21:20
  learned to diff, diff to to say, but it is terrible.
• 21:27
  I mean, this is great business with the door.
• 21:30
  Yes, it reminds. Me a little bit.
• 21:31
  Of it's not boring. Roy Castle in the Dalek movie.
• 21:34
  Do you remember when he's sitting on that step and then
• 21:36
  going in and? Out of the door.
• 21:39
  But yes, she's just walking through corridors like Barbara
• 21:41
  is at the end of Daleks part one.
• 21:43
  And in both instances, it's not uninteresting, partly because
• 21:47
  the actress is is doing their bit to make sure it's not
• 21:50
  boring. And can I tell you what I.
• 21:53
  Chewing the scenery. Well, I think is the best ever
• 21:56
  Sarah and Harry dialogue exchange.
• 21:59
  Harry. Is it you?
• 22:01
  What do you mean? Is it me?
• 22:02
  Is it really you? I I love it.
• 22:06
  Open the door. Yes, yes, the way she works now.
• 22:10
  Oh dear, there she is. And you know, we do have similar
• 22:17
  spaceship sets in the Android Invasion, but again, it is how
• 22:20
  you shoot them, it's how you lie them.
• 22:22
  But but they I I think they they shot and lit just as not quite
• 22:26
  as well, but almost as well as as in this who directs and
• 22:31
  written versions. Barrelitz.
• 22:33
  Oh, OK, who Who is, who is competent?
• 22:37
  It is a little more lit than this, but it's still got
• 22:39
  everyone's still taking it seriously, it's played with
• 22:41
  conviction. And so on, so on.
• 22:42
  Trouble is, you've got the Zygons in this and the crawls in
• 22:45
  that. I'm getting the crawls.
• 22:47
  I like the crawls, especially Chatraki IT.
• 22:53
  Just reminds me of the sippy. Oh, here we go.
• 22:57
  Is it you? I just realized Harry Harry's
• 23:01
  wearing the same outfit for the entirety of his era.
• 23:05
  He's wearing the same blazer and the same blue shirt.
• 23:08
  He's preceding Season 19. Yes, he's an he's, he's Harry is
• 23:13
  an action figure. Because the stories have.
• 23:15
  Managed to change. Run into each other.
• 23:17
  It's quite been quite a short period of time, hasn't it?
• 23:20
  No, it has. One can imagine that.
• 23:22
  I mean, even Genesis of the Daleks would only take place
• 23:25
  over the course of a week, Max. Max a week.
• 23:28
  And you know, I can space a couple of days.
• 23:30
  You know, sometimes I spent a couple of days this couple of
• 23:32
  days. Yeah, I mean, basically he's
• 23:33
  only from robot to this. He's probably only it's only the
• 23:37
  whole thing's taken about 2 1/2 three weeks Max.
• 23:39
  In the ten years time ago I had this strange couple of weeks,
• 23:42
  you know, in my in my 30s exactly.
• 23:46
  He completely lost his mind and that's why he's creating that
• 23:48
  genocidal potion in the Zygon two-part of in the future.
• 23:52
  Yes, the place is deserted blood.
• 24:00
  I still love that outfit. Such a brilliant.
• 24:03
  What Tom's. Jumpsuit, no.
• 24:05
  Well, yes, but Sarah's that I love that.
• 24:07
  It's a very understated outfit, but also, I like Tom's shorter
• 24:11
  Season 12 red jacket or burgundy jacket.
• 24:15
  Whatever you want to. Call it I love the fact that he
• 24:19
  screams the way he does in a minute.
• 24:23
  Early Tom shows sort of pain and fear in a way that later Tom
• 24:29
  never does. No, exactly, he he says.
• 24:32
  I don't do that anymore. But that's that's a scream that
• 24:36
  rivals the best female screams we've seen in the series.
• 24:39
  Absolutely. Oh, yes.
• 24:40
  What just happened? Oh, here we.
• 24:42
  Go make one move and the Doctor dies.
• 24:48
  Definitely. That's such a British What the
• 24:50
  devil are they? Are they?
• 24:52
  Brilliant. You want brought on to say
• 24:54
  that's rude, really the rulers of yours?
• 25:02
  So it is an invasion then? Again, we're not seeing too
• 25:07
  much. I mean, occasionally we do it,
• 25:09
  but on the whole we're not seeing much of the Zygons beyond
• 25:11
  those nice close-ups of the face.
• 25:15
  So any deficiencies in the in the joins of the costume are
• 25:18
  hidden, or at least they're not overly exposed.
• 25:21
  And the fact that they're like, you know, like all the aliens,
• 25:23
  they're wandering around nude. You almost want, like the
• 25:27
  directors, all the directors that are working on a particular
• 25:29
  period of shows, to have a conference and go right.
• 25:32
  This is how you do the monsters. Let's have some uniformity in
• 25:35
  how we shoot these things well. Well, one could argue that
• 25:38
  that's what the producer's for, isn't he?
• 25:40
  Well, yes. Yes.
• 25:42
  I don't think he like bringing any of them together.
• 25:44
  But as a whole, but as a well, I mean they don't have time.
• 25:46
  There's just just no time to do that.
• 25:47
  But I mean Hinchcliffe is doing that.
• 25:49
  Hinchcliffe is hiring the right directors to set the right tone
• 25:53
  in an in, you know the the the set, the setting of the tone
• 25:56
  comes from the top and Tom's behaving himself and everyone's
• 26:02
  behaving himself. I remember watching this scene
• 26:05
  as a kid and not having a clue why they were setting off
• 26:07
  explosions in that water. I was totally baffled.
• 26:11
  Yeah, I I remember that thing a bit.
• 26:13
  What are they doing? I don't understand this.
• 26:16
  But the fact that they go with the model work for the
• 26:19
  cliffhanger and it isn't a disappointment.
• 26:21
  Bravo. No, it it it is, it is probably
• 26:24
  the most impressive model certainly of the 70s it it looks
• 26:27
  so good. I mean that's is that a, is that
• 26:31
  a match shop with the? No, it's something looking funky
• 26:34
  about the water there, the the, the, the lake with the grid, the
• 26:39
  grass and the behind it. I don't know whether there's a
• 26:42
  some kind of match and that doesn't make sense with the
• 26:44
  explosion, but well, maybe. But yeah, that is a great model.
• 26:49
  I mean, look at that. The underwater stuff is great as
• 26:53
  well. And and they've and you know,
• 26:54
  and they've shot at like at 110 speed or whatever the hell it
• 26:57
  is. To give it a sense of scale,
• 26:59
  rather than making it look like it's only as big as your hand,
• 27:01
  it actually looks like it's big. I was convinced that was
• 27:04
  underwater, you know, even though it's just surrounded by
• 27:06
  dry ice. Yeah.
• 27:10
  I was a simple kid, you know. Oh, it's not, it's not.
• 27:13
  It's actually just dry ice around, Yeah.
• 27:14
  No, that's not underwater. No, Yeah, it's just.
• 27:17
  It's just I had no idea. And good lighting again a nice
• 27:23
  you just use the sound again as well and.
• 27:27
  Look, yes, you see the slow motion, Yes, of the water
• 27:30
  falling off the. The model making and I've got a
• 27:33
  feeling Dudley would have gone in big.
• 27:36
  Yes. He doesn't, does he?
• 27:37
  It's it's again. It's kind of haunting.
• 27:41
  I mean, Jeffrey Bergen is a, he's AI Mean Dudley is a, you
• 27:44
  know, great job in composer, but Jeffrey Bergen is the one that
• 27:46
  goes on to do significant work and you know.
• 27:51
  What the madness is Henchcliff needed convincing because he he
• 27:55
  was absolutely assured that Dudley Simpson should be scoring
• 27:59
  everything and Canfield had to give him like samples to
• 28:04
  convince him to use him because he was like, yeah, I don't think
• 28:06
  it's going to work in Doctor Who.
• 28:07
  It's very melodramatic. It's.
• 28:09
  Yeah, it's interesting because I mean back in the day the, the,
• 28:13
  the, the received wisdom was that Canfield and and Dudley had
• 28:17
  this massive falling out way back in the crusade because that
• 28:21
  was the only story they ever did together and then they never
• 28:23
  did. Dudley never scored one of
• 28:25
  Canfield's stories since I think that was I I believe that was
• 28:29
  people putting two and two together and making five.
• 28:31
  But nevertheless, there is something about it.
• 28:33
  The fact that he does insist on using, not using Dudley for this
• 28:36
  and for Seeds of Doom. And that's the only two.
• 28:40
  Is that the only two that Dudley doesn't do in the Hinchcliffe
• 28:43
  era? Oh no, that's right.
• 28:45
  No, The, the, the, the. The.
• 28:46
  Revenge of the side man. Revenge of the Side, But yes,
• 28:49
  Which again has this wonderful unique sound to it.
• 28:51
  But yeah. Yeah, again, that's music I
• 28:55
  heard in my childhood that when people can tell me it's terrible
• 28:57
  and I still think it's glorious, Just like Deaths and Deaths of
• 29:01
  the Daleks as well. I love it, Yeah.
• 29:02
  Completely wrong. The London Saxophone Quartet
• 29:05
  rule.