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What I've Learnt - Madeleine West · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Mother of Seven, advocate, survivor, and ambassador for the newly created Control Shift Organization, Madeline West's on a mission to protect children, educate organizations, parents, and childcare authorities.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: As a victim of abuse herself, she's raw, determined, and dedicated to helping others.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, Madeline, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so thrilled to have you here.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we share a lot in common, but we also you have a lot of lessons that you're learning and have learned.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we look forward to sharing and hearing what you have to say on all of the above.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you, Deb.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: That was such a beautiful intro.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I just feel like I need to interject and say, really have no idea.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Have no idea at all.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: But as you say, I'm open to learning.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is key.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you're absolutely right.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you and I briefly touched on this before.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: It is about being open and accepting that we still have lessons to learn and that we're all on a journey.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the more we can share, which is something you're very good at, I have to say.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: And some of those pointy issues that we face in life, uh, where things go pear-shaped or go wrong, or which which we think are a bit unsightly or uncomfortable, we have a habit of hiding under the rug.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if we can be open and honest, what we I'm going to jump into an anecdote here just quickly because it just happened last week.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: But what we do discover is that that we're all in the same boat.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the anecdote is this, and I'm sure we've all been there.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh school drop-off was one of those days where everything had kind of gone wrong.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the kind of days where you're looking for your glasses only to discover not only are you are they on your head, you're actually wearing them in front of your eyes and yet you can't find them.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the kind of day when you've you thought you got everything together and the baby does a catastrophic projectile poo just as you're leaving the front door.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was that kind of day.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: We've all been there, ran into another mum.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we did that cursory thing.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, hi, how are you?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm great.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I'm okay.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Look, we've got to catch up for that coffee.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's put it in the diary.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: So good to see you.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Good to see you.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And as I walked away, I had a moment of going, what am I?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And right on cue, that's the baby.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what am I doing here?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Am I trying to fake it till I make it?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: What am I achieving by pretending that everything is fine?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually turned around and walked over to her as she was getting into her car.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I leaned into the frame, like the door frame, and I said, I'm actually um, I'm actually not okay.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And she had a little bit of a clutch of pearls moment, like, okay.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Well, um, do you want to talk?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I went, Yeah, I do.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Should we have that coffee now?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Yeah, let's do it.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we had that coffee, and that led into a Riesling, which led into some shared banter about both of us having a crush on David Hasselhoff back in the day.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: But the point was, it opened both of us up to talk about our experiences, and in that I discovered, you know what?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Her life isn't uh isn't coming up roses either.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: And by having that moment of honesty and unburdening ourselves, we were able to drop that myth that we've all bought into, we're all drinking that Kool-Aid, that we can do it all and have it all, and just acknowledge for one afternoon that we don't all have it together, but we're trying to do our best.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got some little boundaries, and that doesn't, and that means I can't always say yes to everything.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I'm gonna have to say no just for my own sanity, and that means including to my own kids, to my workplace, to my extended family.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so we both walked away from that little coffee date so much lighter, so much clearer, just from being honest.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we under, we undersell that honesty in terms of addressing whether we're we're genuinely feeling well and what wellness is.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I had this favorite little moment where we were she we were midway through our Riesling, and she said to me, you know, I just don't get it.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: I do yoga, I do Pilates, I do yoga lades, I've bought all of the apps, I've got a wardrobe of Lululemon, I've spent my kids' university fund on a meditation retreat to India.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: I've done all the things and I still don't feel well.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't, I don't even know what I'm supposed to feel like.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know what wellness is.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, amen, sister, hallelujah to that, because I think we're all in the same boat.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: We're all seeking wellness, but it's hard to acknowledge that wellness is individual, it's not a collective thing.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's sold to us on Instagram by every wellness influencer with a blue team.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely saying it's this and that and that.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of like speaking to the broad masses, whereas actually diving into what you need in any one moment moment to feel good or to tolerate what's facing you in that moment.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: That is your specific wellness, and it's become so ubiquitous wellness.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a it's become a hashtag.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually it has become a collective noun.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like a wellness of yoga poses or a wellness of mantras, whereas being well is something that we can only comprehend.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll grab the baby in just a moment, but it's only something we can comprehend because only we are living our lives, only we are walking around in our own skin, doing the best we can in our unique situation.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And when we generalize, we start comparing ourselves to other people.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And comparison is toxic.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: We all know that from social media.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the question is, you ask yourself, well, what does wellness mean to you?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And my friends said to me, What makes you feel well?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, I don't have a hard and fast answer to that.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: I can't recommend a particular yoga studio that makes me feel great or a colonic or a health tonic that makes me feel well.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, wellness is dipping my cup into the well of things that make me feel good about being me.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the people that I love, the experiences I've had, the little things that I can do for myself day to day, whether it's a glass of wine at five o'clock while I watch the news, whatever it is that makes me feel good about being me.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: So much of what you're saying is true.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's the issue, as you've raised, of honesty, but I also think it's also a trajectory that goes up and down.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll often you know say to my kids, this is it's it's not a linear journey.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: You see, we're all we're all like guided that somehow it's it's you know, means to an end everything, and it's not.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually about it's experiential.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what you're saying.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Some days are good, some days are bad.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but the expectation that has been set for our generation, but also for the young women and the young girls, is it it's obscene.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it creates this sort of artifice that is completely impossible and unattainable.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think such a false economy.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Ridiculous in terms of what our value is.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is my value?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: My value requires me to A, not only be physical, go physically gorgeous and brilliant and ace everything, but also capable of riding all of the waves that life throws at me and being stable.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that there's no opportunity for me to demonstrate to demonstrably reflect that I'm on a roller coaster at the moment.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: I have to keep it all, everything's fine, everything's fine, everything's fine.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And until we can be honest and show our cracks and be real, then what hope do any of us have?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because that means that we're only reflecting on perhaps 2% of who we are.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: And this is something that this, again, harking back to an anecdote, but um, as most people would know, I was hit by a bus in the head.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Always wanted to be the kind of girl who stops traffic, just preferably not with my face next time.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was hit by a bus in the head 23 years ago, uh, which caused a lot of physical damage.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I did have a real dark night of the soul following that experience, because I made the mistake that I think a lot of us make of, especially young women, thinking that the way I looked was the most important thing about me and that my appearance equated to my ability.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I really had to have my value.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: I really had to have a little conversation about myself.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because in that moment, I genuinely believed that my acting career, which I'd been working towards since I was five, was over.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I really had to ask myself, why do I act?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Why do I want to be an actor?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is it to be a storyteller, to reflect on someone else's experience, to allow an audience to vicariously live through me a life that they might never have access to, to walk in someone else's shoes just for half an hour on a Wednesday or for an hour and a half at the cinemas?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Or was it so I could look sexy on the cover of TV Week?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was clearly the former.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And once I could dive into that, I comprehended, well, the tenets of storytelling have so many different manifestations.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: I could do a podcast, I could become a writer, I could become a director.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many things I could do.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if I was willing to sacrifice my deepest dream because I have a couple of scars, a dodgy eyebrow and some broken teeth, I didn't deserve to have it in the first place.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I was alive.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: 99.5% of people who are physically bodily hit by a speeding bus don't make it.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And of that tiny percentage, mostly left with a lifelong physical or mental injuries.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, I have migraines, yes, I stutter, and yes, it took me quite a while to get back on track.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I was alive.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I had to be gracious for that and comprehend that if I was willing to throw away all my hopes, all my dreams, all my abilities, all my passions, and focus only on the two percentage of me that is my physical appearance, then how much would I miss out on and how much would the world miss out on?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And do we really want to usher in a generation of people who distill down all they have into the 2% that makes up the way they look?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a kind of world.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Very relevant, particularly exactly, and especially in this social media world, which has accelerated and accentuated all of that issue.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, we can touch on that very interesting, which is an interesting story with Sidney Sweeney and the pressure on her, that young woman who, irrespective of one's political persuasion, has been completely vilified.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: But also, you know, American Eagles' share price has gone 400%.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that's interesting in itself.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: But more importantly, I mean it's actually insane.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: But what's interesting to me about that, which is a reflection of what you're saying, is the way that our girls and the the women are raised is to that that is your main currency, which is which is absolutely and that's where you and I And I think it touches on well, we're we're of a generation now where coming to the other end of it, where we I mean, for an example, studies have shown out of as of this year that despite all of our agitation for equality and fostering meritocracy, 81% of women still believe that they are judged first and foremost on their appearance.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we all graduate to an age where we start feeling a pressure to have a little bit of a litnip, a little bit of a tuck.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, there's an argument because it makes me feel like my best self, but it could also be said that we're doing it to stave off becoming invisible.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because suddenly, when these notions of what our value is are diminished in the eyes of society, so to speak, and uh, you know, patriarchal focuses.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: So hence we feel we have to change ourselves to accommodate in order to still have relevance.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is when really we've got we've got so much current.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna say we've got life experience and wisdom, which is what this whole sort of platform is about, sharing the wisdom, because really that is actually timeless.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually do think this dialogue, as women who are mature like us, is really helpful also for a lot of the younger women because they can see their, and in fact, if you look at some of the most extraordinary women right now, whether you're looking at Reese Witherspoon or Jennifer Aniston or whoever, it's actually not their looks that is actually their currency, it's what they're creating.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's the storytelling, it's the production company that Reese Witherspoon has created, right?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: That we're all just like, go girl, the book club, you know, it's like, so I think that that's a really interesting space.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I do feel that the invisibility issue is almost becoming redundant as women step into their power, which is a lot more than how they look.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, yay, because we feel a little liberated.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna tell I'm gonna jump into just something I read recently that fascinated me.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it was that women, human beings, are unique in our experience of menopause in terms of the animal kingdom.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: The only other uh creatures that experience menopause in the manner that we do are killer whales.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, like us, they will spend a third of their life where they are no longer producing children.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And bonabos and chimpanzees, which are our closest related primates, experience that to some degree, but they only have a fairly short lifespan once the at the onset of menopause.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas, whereas we and killer whales still will live a third of our life in that uh, I don't want to say non-fertile, because we're extremely fertile in what we create, but we're no longer creating progeny.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, killer whales in the oceans, females become leaders.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: So they lead their pack, um, and their their sons stay with them for life.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: So they create families around their mothers.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is the same not true for us as swimming?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that just a leader?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Is that metaphors an actually an opportunity for us to demonstrate because we don't have a child on our hip?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't it incredible?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because we become the midwives, we birth our children's babies.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: We're the ones who have the wherewithal to say, because men don't live as long as we do, we are then the ones who say, you know what, we need to plant right now because the rainy season's coming.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or if we're going to eat that particular grain, it needs to be blanched first to get the toxins out.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: All of that caveman knowledge from our distant past was already gearing us up to be leaders.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: So this notion that we're somehow now redundant is so archaic.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not even archaic because that's not how we were in the past.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: We've got resonance within our tribe groups because we had so much.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think to be honest, that the world is flipping on that because they're realizing just how much wisdom the women carry and how much we can contribute.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right, and I love that notion of sort of that that we are the leaders, and I totally support and agree with that.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also the younger generation of women are realizing that too, and that's what is the most important because as we lead, they can follow and they can see that trajectory.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and we've got to break the shackles of industrialization.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's what did it to us.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's what made women chattel.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's what made women chattel possessions, and um made the our the wonderful women who are in the third stage of our life somehow redundant.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got to rewrite that now.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: We are leading and we are driving change because somebody like yourself is really interesting to me because you're sort of um you're such a hybrid of so many things.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: In particular, being a mother who, by the way, that is very interesting.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: You thought that you were experiencing menopause symptoms, but you were actually pregnant with your seventh child.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: That would have to go down in history, is one of the most brilliant stories, to be honest.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: When I read it, I just couldn't take the smile on my face.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was just like, I love this so much.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really loved.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: We've all been there.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: We've all been there.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Where you just have that moment of what is that, right?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was quite superb.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I I think also the way you step into your space is really quite inspiring.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: So whether you're an actor who has driven a particular uh pathway and a journey that I think is really impressive, then you're as a mother and a mother of seven, then as somebody who survived a traumatic bus crash, which affected your physicality, which, as you say, you turned it around, you pivoted.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Then, as well as that, your extraordinary story, which I do want to touch on, where you took your perpetrator, the perpetrator who was abusing you as a child, a neighbor, you took him to court and won and got him incarcerated, which is very hard and very tough and very rare.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: You have this extraordinary core strength.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Where does that come from?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you've really applied it to all aspects.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're also an advocate who is helping others.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to qualify.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And everything you have said there, yes, is is true.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I like that you touched on the point, the capacity to pivot.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I do believe that I don't know whether it was a product of having our unstable childhood.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I do have an ingrained ability to pivot.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I will qualify this and just make everyone feel a hell of a lot better by saying, I certainly don't always get it right.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Let's not pretend pretend that my projective projectory has been a yellow brick road where everything has been smooth sailing and the inch point was directly where there has been, it has literally been a cataclysmic roller coaster of up and down and up and down.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And hurt people, people who've been injured, hurt other people.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So there are in times in my life where those closest to me, which is is classic trauma response, have felt the burden of my pain.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it was not theirs.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I was I was the the catalyst in that and I own that.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't ask anyone who's had that experience of me to forgive.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: I can only hope.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't ask you to forget it, but I can I only hope with time that that we can forgive.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that sensibility has meant forgiving myself for my flaws, my imperfections.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've managed to, through this process of, as you mentioned, seeking, but trying, striving to better understand trauma and how it operates in my body.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that began as a process for me when uh so 20 years after being hit by the bus, I went back to the bus stop.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was still having, I didn't know what it was at the time, but I was still having a trauma response to traffic to certain loud sounds.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I would just freeze up.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so I went back to that bus stop and I sat there for four and a half hours until I the the depth of the trauma response I had at uncommon at busy traffic and oncoming buses slowly softened and eventually dissipated.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I won't say it's gone forever, but I physically sat at that bus stop in order to address that.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that I do think propelled me to addressing the deeper trauma, the bigger elephant in the room.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that was my child abuse.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I certainly wouldn't say that the path I've taken was intentional.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a period of discovery and being open to learning.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that is one thing I do pride myself on.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've always been open to learning and I've always maintained curiosity.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say that has I do regard myself as strong.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're all strong.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's a multitude of factors and our environment that can chip away at that strength or make us feel that we don't deserve an opportunity to express it.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So often what has um appears as fortitude and demonstration of strength was just an opportunity that presented itself.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And my curious little mind, yep, went, yep, let's give that a go.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it happened to work out for the best.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: But that's interesting because that requires what I do think, and you're I and I hear you, you're saying, you know, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and your curiosity drives you.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: That bus stop image is quite powerful, actually.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: But what I think is thematic, from what I understand, is you have a sense of bravery and you're prepared to put yourself out of a comfort zone that would otherwise be you might recoil for a point of time in response to a trauma, because I think this is really common.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: How we respond to trauma, recoiling and then trying to recover or find a healing, which is what I think I can see as a theme in some of the experiences you've had.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Particularly, can we just touch on this um child child abuse experience as a young girl?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it is quite an extraordinary story, just for our listeners who don't know the full.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you could give us a little snapshot of what brought you to have the courage to wear a mic to record your perpetrator, as I understand it, as and then to have the evidence that you needed to go forward, because it is really tough space to try and prove basically to get.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: evidence.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then he obviously.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that I guess is the I guess that is the crux of it, that it is so hard to prove you need solid evidence.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: So for those who aren't familiar with my story, I was uh quite horrifically sexually abused from the ages of four to eleven by my next door neighbor.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like we know the stats on sexual abuse of children.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: One in three girls, one in five boys.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm certainly not alone in this experience.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And most of us will just bury it.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because we've been taught from a very young age that we're to blame, that it's our fault.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: That is how the predators get away with it in the first place.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: By reiterating that we that we have done, we asked for this, that we did something wrong, that we have a special relationship that meet needs to be kept safe safe.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's the cornerstones of grooming.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you just learn to carry this burden.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: The reality is that you've if you've experienced significant trauma in your life, it will manifest like if you've experienced it in your formative years, it becomes part of the fabric of who you are and how you interact with the world.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: So immediately from a young age you see the world not as a place of hope and opportunity, safety and love.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: You see it as a place that you will need to fight against that is out to hurt you.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: To survive you will need to strike first or you will need to tuck yourself away and hide your light and and that you do not deserve anything because you are inherently bad because this thing happened to you that you asked for it.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you therefore are to blame.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: So when you see the world in that way it qualifies the way you address the world.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: But as much as you try to tamp down those feelings they will come out.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: They will come out in a myriad of different ways some that you would not even think to correlate with the experience of abuse.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it could be drinking too much, eating too much, eating too little eating disorders, smoking, drug consumption, an inability to hold down a job, difficulties maintaining a relationship, disassociation.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: It could be that you find yourself engaging in criminality, whether it's from shoplifting all the way up to physical harm, destruction, you might have intrinsic thoughts you'll definitely at some point point contemplate ending it all.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it will manifest in your life there is no escaping it.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that process will invariably mean that other people can become collateral to your pain until you start dealing with it.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, we've all talked about triggers.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's important to understand what a trigger is and that is where someone has a certain sensitivity because certain environmental factors or thoughts and feelings will trigger a response that harks back to the trauma.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it could be a certain smell it could be tone of someone's voice it could be visiting somewhere from your past it could be a multitude of factors.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: It can even be the sensation of certain fabrics on your skin will trigger you.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: When triggered memories sense you're returned to the to the body that you were as a child.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: So events that shouldn't really have such a daunting impact or that seem minimal objectively can have a huge impact on you.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: They can bring on a huge emotional physical response that is being triggered often you will be returned to the sensation of being of being that happy in that voice beautifully that would be violated.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: You said it's like skimming through someone else's photo album till the pictures gradually brighten sharp and lengthen until a fully formed sickening scenario is playing out behind your eyes with the realization you're staring at your own past that is such a powerful quote I I found that really quite extraordinary which reflects exactly what you're saying.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's and it's so true and it's really really difficult to process.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well thank you Deb.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's I wanted to to write about it just so that anyone who is looking on particularly with this current situation playing out with the abuse being uncovered in childcare centers who is looking on or has past experience of trauma themselves just so that there is a bit more understanding about the way it actually manifests in your life because we can talk about it as an issue to the cows come home, but until we comprehend that it's an issue that has a lifelong impact, we're nearly not we're not going to give it the kind of gravity that it deserves and not going to address it with the kind of concern that it deserves.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: So for me it started to play out in 2017 2018 my relationship was falling apart we were moving there are whole lots of shifting pieces and I started to having memories come back fully formed and just the white noise of that those recollections became so loud that I couldn't think of anything else.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it was leading me into a constant state of dysfunction whether I went into the dorsal vagal response which is where your body literally you start to to pant um you you don't quite asphyxiate your body just shuts down into a state of sleep or if I was in fight or flight panic attacks, all of that heightened anxiety, depression, all those things.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I simply woke up one morning and realized I need I need to address this because it's like I'm having nightmares in the middle of the day and it's and it's me that I'm looking at as a little child.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: And they were so specific and so clear right down to the mood I was in at that moment in the lead up to an episode the clothes I was wearing the conversations I'd been having with mum or dad or school friends they were so clear and so specific.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And often they were like I'd had small glimpses of things throughout my life that I recalled but this was like a jigsaw puzzle coming together.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd birth I'd I'd use the word birth because it was extremely painful and really difficult.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: But these complete memories and so that was when I began the process of reporting and a little while into that process which was long lies very long and drawn out and it is very painful I learned that Peter, my perpetrator had grandchildren and I'd always mollified my I guess sort of sense of guilt around because I knew that other girls in my neighborhood were being abused by him I'd mollified myself by knowing that when I was 10 I'd another little girl in my neighborhood had disclosed to me and I went and told her dad.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And her dad went and confronted Peter and that was the end of that.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I'd never gone any further and when I found out that he had grandchildren I made a call and that was this ends with me.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: This I'm drawing a line in the sand he could still be out there perpetrating and it needs to end.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Me hiding this under the rug is just contributing to the conspiracy of silence that is why so many children have been left vulnerable in our society for so long because we know it's an uncomfortable conversation because the notion of an adult seeking sexual gratification from a child is uncomfortable.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it is happening in numbers that we can't even begin to comprehend.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Clearly another one came out today to ignore because as I said earlier there you go the social impacts are real.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: The cost of therapy of um victim compensation awards is through the roof.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: The cost, yes, traumatized people who can't function and contribute to society through no fault of their own is costing the taxpayer.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: So let's look at it through that lens.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when that police asked me I said we don't this is not something that we do um but we'd be in a unique position if you were to wear a wire and milk a confession out of him that that's solid that's going to short this his his case significantly and so I did.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Unequivocal evidence extraordinary courage to do unequivocal evidence.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: So as I understand it from what I've researched you then he ended up being arrested you had you had empirical evidence from the wire taping his confession which I find extraordinary that I mean that's just says something about how you must have conducted yourself because that would be quite terrifying for someone to do in that situation.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I did a a lot of I certainly didn't go in cold um once I'd made that decision to do to follow through I did a lot of training and that sounds that sounds odd but no it's not odd it completely makes sense to be honest to you know an actor prepares um I focused on two areas and that was like I found an incredible um psychotherapist Bardashep who lived up here up in this area and she herself had history of trauma and so uniquely comprehended uniquely comprehended where I was coming from and she taught me how to understand the language of predators how to this will sound counterintuitive but how to address them with compassion and understanding so they felt compelled and comfortable to discuss their experiences.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And in discussing their experiences they invariably confess.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: And she also taught me how to manage my trauma response because that was the biggie which was for me always shut down.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: I any if historically whenever confronted by something I would literally fall asleep depth.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: I drove people insane.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: If I was engaged in a heated discussion with someone I would just it was like having sleep apnea but it was very specific.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: So what you're saying is when I was in a traumatic state it would shut you down.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: You'd actually almost fall asleep in a conversation that was heated or connecting I'd return to the body of the child who was confronted with abuse and I would was like an animal rolling onto its belly in surrender.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: So as the child I would shut down so I didn't have to experience it.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And as an adult I repeated that behavior whenever I felt confronted.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: It had become a hallmark of how I dealt with people which is not helpful for anyone the other way I would go was extreme fight or flight like super heightened dysregulated doing a million things at once which can be really helpful when you're trying to multitask at times but ostensibly it's not good for you.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's not healthy at all but that's cortisol surging through your system adrenaline through the roof these kind of not healthy so you control so she taught me exercises to mitigate that I did I've I've I've told this story so many times but the day that um we were ready to go it was at five o'clock in the morning on a public holiday because we needed to guarantee that he would be home.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we were parked a couple of blocks away and we were setting up the wire and doing all the recording that you need to do to but to demonstrate that this yes I have chosen to do this.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here with this sergeant and this detective and this is what we're intending to do on this date and time.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then I just felt my body shut down I just felt myself like going to sleep and I said Scott to my beautiful detective my hero Scott Tunham I can't do this.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm out man like I'm I'm falling asleep and he looked at me and he said Madeline just act pretend that you are a strong powerful woman who has been wronged by the world and you're going to go in there and you're going to seek justice.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I just kind of went act yeah I can do that I could do that and so I did the exercises that pulled me back into the world into the character like a character.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yep pulled myself into that character who was me did the little exercises that reframed my my brain waves so that I could go in there, speak clearly speak um compassionately and utilize the skills she taught me to address him in a manner that demonstrated that I acknowledged that people have various proclivities and wants and needs in this world and not everyone understands it.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: But you and I had a unique relationship a special relationship and I needed to talk to you about it because I found it's just impacted various areas of my life and the only person I can talk about it is you.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that was how I began the conversation.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely extraordinary that I mean that is just but it is very interesting because in a sense you had to I mean the acting framework was a magnificent tool in this context which you obviously used.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so he tr you earned his trust and therefore got his confession which clearly was effective enough to be used where you got a conviction I think he's still is he still in prison?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: He'll be in jail for another uh 13 years.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely incredible but also what an extraordinary example to others let alone for your own healing and for your own protecting his grandchildren or whoever else might be become victims.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: It shows to other survivors you can take action and you must bring us to then how you got involved with control shift which is all about I mean I know that has an online safety focus but obviously driven from this base of healing but also trauma well um I think I'm going to touch very briefly on something that you said and that is that it's it it demonstrates for others other victims survivors um and and for society at large that it is possible not just to seek justice but also to confront your demons and heal.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that that healing is guaranteed as I said earlier it's it's doing these things to learn to tolerate your life.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that means tolerate the good times and the bad times and somehow remain in some kind of state of equilibrium no matter what is thrown at you.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: And for me that begins with with conversation that when we start talking about these icky issues we remove the stigma.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: When we acknowledge when someone stands up and acknowledges this is what happened to me this is the impact it happened it had on me it was not my fault I was not to blame the one in three women the one in five men out there and we know it's higher than that because that's reported statistics can go oh that happened to me too and if she can say that then maybe it wasn't my fault either.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: We remove the stigma we start talking about it people start feeling actually I want to reclaim my history and whether that means that they finally go to therapy or they just tell a loved one what happened to them or they go the whole nine yards and seek justice in the judicial system.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I suddenly we have more reporting and if we have more reporting we have more cases before the judiciary and where there is that push that recognition of how big and deep the issue is and more people get up and can reflect on how it has impacted their entire life the judiciary is required to start handing down sentences that meet the crime and that in itself acts as a deterrent.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: So this is one way to rewrite this narrative to pull that out that could like strip away the veil look at this problem look at the impact it is genuinely having and doing everything we can to fix it.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: And hence I've become involved with control shift because in this era we all know about stranger danger.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: We've all talked at length about stranger danger when we were kids never get into a car with a stranger never take candy from a stranger online engagement where you know we've lost the villagers of old the way we used to communicate with a small society of people that effectively influenced various facets of our life in this age of the mum dad and 2.5 kids families have become increasingly secular we've got our social group and our networks but they're not necessarily people who we are always being honest with and always feel that we are learning from so we've recreated our villages online.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: So in this age of connection we've actually never been more disconnected and what I've come to learn is that the internet is a pedophile's playground for a couple of reasons.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: It encourages anonymity it encourages lawlessness and it allows access to kids it's when we had a child a device yeah when it is terrifying when we had a child a device we're not just giving them access to the world we're giving the world access to them to them so these bad guys aren't the monster on the other side of the playground wearing a trench coat.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're the little cute character with unicorn horn and fairy wings in Roblox they're the 14 year old that you're gaming with who says they go to school with you.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: They're the person who slides into your DMs on Instagram and says ah I'm a girl at the school next to yours I've always thought you cute.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Could you send me a photo?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: They're the person who's actually in Arizona who manages to get access to that photo and then suddenly reveals oh actually I'm not a girl from school next to you if you don't send me$5,000 I'm going to post this photo on every single forum that you're on and send it out to all your friends and followers.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: They're the bad guy on the other side of the internet.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the person who your 12 year old is gaming with saying that they're a 14 year old and they go hey we should hook up sometime might just turn out to be a 42 year old who has been setting this up and grooming your child for months and will do with your child whatever they want.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the it's this is what we're looking at and hence why I do feel that in order to stay safe and to mitigate where harm hides we need to be educated about what our kids are doing online.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely and also the the kids need to be educated too so the combination of trying to educate our children and educate parents about what to look out for because they're not always in I mean their kids the kids are in their room they're on a laptop we we really you know and you and I are both mothers and you can monitor it to a point but at the end of the day you have to there's an element of trust they also will will hide whatever they want to hide which is also about respecting privacy and space and so it's a complex it's not so easy to to actually navigate is it really for parents it it is really complex and that's why control shift really wants to come at this from an angle that encourages support compassion and understanding being able to have big conversations with your kids and most importantly role modeling the kind of behavior that you know will keep them safe.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that means managing our own online engagement which is not always easy but we certainly can't say to our kids stay off this stay off that while we're there going scrolling scrolling scrolling.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: And by the same token it's so important for parents to understand that we are doing harm to our children with our own uneducated online behavior.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: That we're telling a very big story we're giving away so much data not just about ourselves but our kids as well in how we manage our online activities.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we're not asking anyone to change we're just giving you the tools to not just keep yourself safe but most importantly keep your kids safe to create an online experience to rewrite the internet as a place where harm can't hide.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: So for people that are keen to get some of these tools and to access information that may support them not only in terms of the education process but also if somebody who has experienced trauma who would like to take the next steps, what would you recommend?
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: So first and foremost if you would like to have a look at and we've got some incredible resources at Control Shift now available so head over to www.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that's C T R L S H F T.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: We've got all sorts of resources that parents can use, kids can use.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: We've got frameworks that can be instituted at schools.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: We can do presentations physically at schools for teachers, parents, carers, students.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: We've kind of got everything covered, we've got consultancy covered.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we actually have a couple of programs.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: One is Deep, which is our digital ethics program.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we've also got the online safety coach, where you can actually become an educator in this space, whether you're a carer, a teacher, you're interacting with young people, or within your own business.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we're trying to make education as palatable as possible.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're also uploading videos with little quick snapshots of what's new, what's happening, how to keep up to date.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got everything covered.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's myself, the wonderful Kira Pendergast, who is a cyber safety and security expert and founder of Safe on Social, Brad Marshall, the unplugged psychologist, and Maggie Dent, who is Australia's mother of common sense, the parenting advice wonderkind.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think she'd love me calling her a wonderkind.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we've kind of got all of our bases covered.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we're really just wanting to come from a space where there is so much noise deb, there is so much chat, particularly when we have issues like the debacle that's happened with the childcare system.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: There is so much noise that it can become deafening.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: And what parents need is just someone to take their hand and show them the way.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we want to do, a control shift.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: For someone who's had experience of trauma, this is really complex.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's complex, but what an extraordinary insight you've given us and our listeners into your own journey, but also a way forward, which is actually the most important.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to thank you so much for your time.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: I know you've got your little newborn right next to you, gurgling away.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, um, I hope we have you back on uh to talk more about this because it really is a fascinating story and a fascinating space, and things need to change.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you're at the uh you're leading the the charge in and spearheading this change.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: So uh thank you so much for your time and look forward to seeing what you do next.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Deb.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we all have the capacity to be at the coal face and to lead in this space.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it just means being willing, being brave, having courage to protect future, to protect our future, because right now we're letting our kids down, but also to reclaim your history for the child that we all were, and a child that maybe felt invisible, that wasn't heard, that wasn't listened to.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: That if there was no one to stand up for you then, you have an opportunity to stand up for yourself now.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, and I love that you have so much hope and optimism because that is really what we all need, particularly as all of this news has emerged.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to see that you're doing such incredible work.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time and enjoy that little new baby.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: The best.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you, Deb.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: Love Deb.