Latest / Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding / 39. Case Consultation: How Financial Advisors Can Support Clients Through Unexpected Setbacks with Jim Grace

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39. Case Consultation: How Financial Advisors Can Support Clients Through Unexpected Setbacks with Jim Grace · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

0:01
SPEAKER_00: Amazing to me when I start to bring up the fact that we do have resources, that there is somebody that can help with this conversation that we can get you in front of to help you process some of this stuff.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: Just bringing up the fact that there is some type of resource out there.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: You can kind of see people's shoulders lower, they breathe a sigh of relief, they're open to having the conversation.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: Which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, hi.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: I should probably introduce myself.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: Today we have a bit of a different episode.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: So earlier in the season, if you recall, we did a case consultation with Johans Harrison.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: And today we're gonna do a similar, a similar format.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna do another, another case consultation.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: Today, instead of Johans, we have Jim Grace, who I have the pleasure of working with as uh the fractional chief behavioral officer for his work.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: And so love working with him.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: And so we thought that it might be cool, fun, or maybe I did, maybe I thought it would be cool and fun.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: I also think it's gonna be fun.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: Just okay, cool, good.
2:33
SPEAKER_01: All right, all right, good, good, good.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: To have Jim come on and we can live kind of demo just some case consultation uh work and an effort that hopefully maybe it's helpful for you, for those of you that are listening out there.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: But before we dive into the juicy stuff, Jim, share a little bit about you, who you are, your background, and yeah, then we'll just kind of go from there.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I appreciate it.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: And again, just to be clear, I do think any opportunity to talk with you and work through client cases like this is a lot of fun.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate the opportunity to be here.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I'm Jim Grace.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm a financial planner.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: I run a fixed fee financial planning firm called Modern Financial Wellness.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: I've been an advisor, financial planner for about 15, 16 years.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: Modern Financial Wellness, the firm is brand new.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: So I'm branching out to kind of launch this as we move into 2026.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: So I'm excited about that.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: And typically I describe myself as a personal CFO to successful professional couples.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: So they're typically mid-career, doing pretty well.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: Usually they have kids, aging parents, so that sandwich generation type of client.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: And we work with them on an ongoing basis to help them figure out where they're at and where they're going.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: And as you said, incorporate things like behavioral advising and some financial therapy insights into the practice.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: So we've been working with you, and that's made a huge impact in the work that we're doing on the financial planning side and beyond.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: So, so yeah, that's a little bit about me in a nutshell.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: Live in Portsmouth, New Hampshire with uh my wife and two sons, nine and six.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: So you're in it.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm in it.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: In it.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: Square.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: In it.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you just for giving us that like high-level context there.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: So today you've got a case that we're gonna talk about.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: And just so that everyone is clear, I want to make sure that the listeners know that the names, identity like of clients like have been changed, and even some of the details have also been changed, just in terms of protecting uh their confidentiality there.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: So little disclaimer warning there.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: But Jim's got a case we're gonna talk through, give some feedback on.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: And what I'd like to do, Jim, if it's okay with you, is maybe share high level about this client case first.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: And then I'll just ask, you know, like a typical kind of case consult, we'll just kind of go from there and I'll ask some questions.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: So high level, tell us a little bit about this client, about this client case and what maybe the struggle is for you.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: Sure, sure.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: And I'll try to be, you know, 30,000 foot, but with enough context where maybe it makes sense.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: So if you have questions about it, you want me to expand in any direction, just let me know.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: But this couple in particular, very typical type of client that I work with.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: So mid-career, doing pretty well, husband and wife, one young daughter.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: The wife is in academia, the husband is a contractor.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: And like a lot of the clients that I work with, when we started working together, it was pretty obvious that they had operated separately together financially for a long time, right?
5:34
SPEAKER_00: So, like a lot of couples, they date, they have separate accounts, they move in together, they get married.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: A lot of that doesn't merge.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: So they find out at some point that they have a lot of work to do on the financial planning side and beyond.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's kind of where I met them.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: They were trying to get their house in order.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: They had some debt that they needed to consolidate and kind of clean up so that they could move forward.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: And what I found is when we started working with them, they were pretty stressed out about their current financial situation.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: They felt stuck.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: There were a lot of roadblocks in the way where they didn't see a path forward through this kind of debt situation that they were in.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: When we dug a little bit deeper, what we noticed was they're obviously a loving couple, but two completely different people from literally geographically opposite ends of the country.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: So she was from the West Coast, he's from the East Coast.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: Love a good love story.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: Love a good, like, yeah.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: So geographically, they're far apart.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: Culturally, their background, their relationship to money totally fall far apart.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: And what they just needed some help in the initial part of the process was kind of understanding each other a little bit better and having some systems and process in place that they can get to the table, talk about money.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: So as we did those things, and and you met with them and shared some insights and gave some feedback in that initial alignment phase of the process, things got dramatically better really, really quickly when they both had an understanding of where they were, where they came from, who they were, and then financially where they were at, and starting to implement a game plan that was gonna kind of give them a vision of the future that they hadn't seen before.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: Things got a lot better.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: And at one point, we asked, kind of assessed what they would rate their sense of financial well-being as.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think if I recall correctly, they went from originally saying they were at like a three or a four to a seven and an eight, right?
7:32
SPEAKER_00: They had made objectively like a really big stride in that direction towards improved well-being.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: So, long story short, what's what's the problem, or what do I need help with?
7:44
SPEAKER_00: Recently, a change happened where the husband got hurt and he might not be able to work at the same capacity as he had been past, and that's gonna impact their income.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: And what was interesting, I I went into the meeting recently where I found this out, thinking I'm kind of like riding high because we had done all this great work and they're feeling so much better.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, look at me, I'm so fantastic at my job.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: And then I get into this meeting where they've unfortunately had this change that's gonna make an impact and like they're back to square one, right?
8:17
SPEAKER_00: And so that's kind of where we're at, where I was a little deer in headlights, if I'm being honest, because I expected just keep the momentum rolling.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: And then they had some life kind of get in the way and make an impact on their situation.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of where I'm at.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I love it.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: And also that's like, oh, like I feel like my stomach kind of dropped.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: I feel like my stomach drop for you and for them too.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I think all of that is really helpful, really helpful context for me for today's purposes.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: What would you like to get out of just this time together?
8:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, what would be helpful for you?
8:56
SPEAKER_01: How can we structure this conversation in such a way that when we hit stop, record, right?
9:02
SPEAKER_01: That you feel like, okay, all right, maybe I have a little bit more clarity or direction.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: It could be maybe you need some clarity or maybe you need some direction.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm not quite sure, but what would be most helpful for you?
9:11
SPEAKER_00: I think both are always helpful.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: So clarity around maybe what's happening with some of the emotions in that moment when things change abruptly and we're not quite ready for it.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: It's almost that old kind of all that stuff from the past comes right to the forefront.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: We're we're kind of back to old habits and routines.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: So a little clarity around what's going on there.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: And then if you have any suggestions for how to move forward and maybe help navigate these conversations as we're trying to take those next steps with the client would be would be super helpful as well.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay, perfect.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: So you said something when kind of towards the end there of that description there around feeling like they are back at square one, that you felt like a deer in headlights, that you were right, shocked there.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: I guess I'd like to maybe start with you, because you know, anytime that as professionals, like we're working with clients, like you're balancing a lot of different relationships here, right?
10:15
SPEAKER_01: There's like the self component, the relationship that you have with yourself, like what's going on for you.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: There's what's going on between them, what's going on for that couple individually, and what's going on between you and and and them.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: But let's just maybe start with you as the advisor.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: So you felt like a deer in headlights.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: You said felt like they were back at square one.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: My curiosity is around do you feel like you're also back at square one with them?
10:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh no, not necessarily.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: Um I might have overstated that when I say deer and headlights.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: I just wasn't prepared for it, right?
10:50
SPEAKER_00: I see.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: So I made the assumption based on everything that had happened up to that point that I was gonna walk into a certain kind of meeting, and that's not what I was met with.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: So that kind of got me off kilter, so to speak.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: But no, I don't think that I'm back at square one.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think they are either, right?
11:10
SPEAKER_00: So when we take this step back and think about their situation, I don't know that there's gonna be a lot of meaningful impact by this potential change.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that they're falling all the way back to square one either.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that is helpful to know.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: So while you are surprised and kind of taken it back, you don't feel like you have also been dragged back back right.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: I think I could have been better prepared and not make that assumption of what the expectation would have been, right?
11:41
SPEAKER_00: I think I can do a better job of just being open to whatever comes my way rather than riding too high on.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, but I mean, honestly, like when we know like a client has made like pro, you know, we don't really expect, right, like those kind of hurdles, you know, to come up.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: Like I think that's very easy and very human.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: Like it makes a lot of sense.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: But it I think I just heard you say something there of like I could have been maybe better prepared to handle like the shock or like the surprise.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: What would that look like, I guess, for you handling it better?
12:18
SPEAKER_00: So in that moment, right, where it's very obvious we're about to have a much different conversation than maybe was expected or anticipated, what would be a good way to maybe just pause and and re-level set in those moments?
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that that is a great question.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: So, one of the things that a strategy that I lean on for myself and I know you and have a relationship with you and have sat in on client meetings with you.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: So I say this because I have experience with knowing who and how you are.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that you would be able to do this remarkably well and deliver it, deliver it very, very, very well.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: But one of the strategies that I that I use is just making things explicit, just calling it out, naming it, you know.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: So if it's, hey, I'm really surprised, saying, like, wow, hey, I really appreciate you sharing that with me.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: I'll be honest, like, I'm I'm a little surprised.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: And that's okay, right?
13:15
SPEAKER_01: But like, wow, like this is really surprising.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: And I'm so glad that you told me and I'm so glad that you shared this with me.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: Can I just take a second to kind of regroup my thoughts here?
13:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because this is really important and it does change a little bit of, you know, some of the direction and what we might need to talk about.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes we don't give ourselves permission to just say what's going on for us.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
13:40
SPEAKER_00: Like I would have, you know, I can see why I'd I might have a hesitation to just put it out there, right?
13:46
SPEAKER_00: Um I felt myself in that moment maybe grasping for the perfect way to maybe handle it instead of just saying, hey, this is this is kind of unexpected.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: Why do you think you have to have the perfect answer there?
14:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: Um I think that you know, doing this type of work is really it requires a lot of care and intention.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we're getting into you know some deep, meaningful stuff with clients sometimes and big life changes and transitions, and it, you know, emotionally can be kind of heavy sometimes.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: So I'm just speaking for myself.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes I find myself maybe being a little too delicate, trying to find the right perfect way to kind of navigate some of these things rather than just maybe being myself and being honest and like you said, putting it out there like, hey, this is this is a bit of a change and a surprise.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Let's take a step back and maybe rethink what this means now for both of us.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: I think about the video, and maybe you've seen this video, it's the Brene Brown video, the sympathy versus empathy.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: It's on YouTube.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: I love using it for trainings, but the way that she walks through just kind of this visual of sympathy versus empathy.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not talking about that here necessarily in this case, but in like the video, it shows like someone who is struggling and they're in this like trench or like well or like hole like under the ground.
15:09
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm getting this visual of like your clients coming in, sharing about you know, the decrease in you know, work and income.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: And they're kind of in that hole, right?
15:20
SPEAKER_01: Like they're in that that well or and they're there and they're like, Jim, hey, like, you know, there's this big change and it's kind of scary, and we're really like worried.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes as professionals, like instead of getting down in the hole with them, like we kind of like look down into it and we're like, oh, okay, well, if you just, hey, you see that ladder over there?
15:45
SPEAKER_01: If you just like put that ladder against the wall and like start to climb out, like, hey, like you'll be fine.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: But I think sometimes what clients need, and as humans, we need is sometimes we just need someone that's like willing to jump down in the hole with us and go, Whoa, this is kind of crazy.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, this is kind of big, this is hard, this isn't easy.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, let's like put our heads together here and figure out how like how we can get out of this.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: And so for this couple, I like that visual like kind of comes to mind for me.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: And I share that with you because I think if you can visualize sometimes, you know, in like in this moment, this client's in a hole.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, are you willing to jump down in there with them and be like, man, this is hard.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
16:31
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's kind of taking me back too.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: Like, I can only imagine how you guys must feel.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: This does change things.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: And like, let's put our heads together and let's kind of figure out what this means.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: I I guess I wonder, I'd be curious if that might be helpful in those moments when you're worried about thinking about the perfect answer or the perfect solution.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: I'll pause.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: I kind of gave a No, I I like that a lot.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: I think if I think about it honestly, when I have been comfortable, you know, to just kind of put it out there and call things out, that tends to lead to not a quicker resolution, but it's just a smoother path forward, right?
17:08
SPEAKER_00: It's like we're all just on the same page now and we're able to kind of figure out where we go from here, right?
17:14
SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like jump down into the well, acknowledge, like, hey, we're in a well and it's dark and it's damp and it's like this kind of sucks.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: Now here is the ladder, right?
17:23
SPEAKER_00: Let's look around together.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: Now let's figure out how to get out of here.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: I like that a lot.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: For me, it's been a way of like it makes things like less scary.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't worry so much about like the perfect response or solution.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: It's like just jump, just jump in there and get messy together.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: It's a lot easier.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: So, okay, let's focus a little bit more like on this, on this couple, because you said clarity and direction is something that you were looking, looking for.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, talking about just kind of you as the advisor is where we started.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, how can like you as the advisor maybe show up in a different way or think about things a bit differently?
17:57
SPEAKER_01: But this couple has had a big uh setback, essentially, right?
18:01
SPEAKER_01: For what it feels like for them.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: It's a change, it's a hurdle, it might feel like a setback.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: And I think I heard you say, correct me if I'm wrong, that from a numbers standpoint, they will be fine.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: They're gonna be over there.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't think that it's gonna have a real meaningful impact on their financial situation.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: Maybe a little bit, if you think about two steps forward, maybe a little half a step back.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's gonna delay accomplishing certain things.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, if we were targeting 12 to 18 months for consolidating certain pieces of debt and clearing things out as they're moving forward, maybe now it's gonna be two years instead of 18 months, right?
18:39
SPEAKER_00: There, there's going to be some impact, but it's not really gonna completely derail their path forward.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: And do you feel like did you get the sense that they understood that from a numbers standpoint?
18:51
SPEAKER_00: No, no, and I think that's a big part of the problem, right?
18:54
SPEAKER_00: So what we also noticed, what I was able to find out as we're having this conversation is they hadn't really been sitting down and committing to talking to each other about money and what's been going on, right?
19:06
SPEAKER_00: So things were moving in the right direction and all the good habits that they had built, right, to get them to that place felt less critical because things were going pretty well.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: So they hadn't really been meeting and talking.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: So they they kind of drifted apart in their understanding of what the situation actually was.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: So they didn't have that visibility.
19:25
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: So when they left the meeting, then do you feel like they had some of that visibility?
19:31
SPEAKER_01: Or that's there's still some unknowns there.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we touched on it a little bit.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: We didn't really have a chance to go back and and revisit every detail of the plan, but I was able to pull out some of the work that we had done in the past and what was able to articulate, hey, you know, based on what I'm hearing here, it may delay the schedule of when we would be able to accomplish some of the goals that we had, but we're not really going to derail the full plan here with this little kind of bump in the road.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: We're this is something that we're going to move past.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: So we were able to touch on that.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: And I think that was helpful.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: And then we encourage them to start sitting down and talking about money again to kind of get back to the table so they can continue to build that shared awareness of what was going on.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: So those are two of the things that we did focus on in that meeting.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: And did you notice, I guess, any or is there a particular place where they're stuck or there's some resistance around?
20:30
SPEAKER_01: I know you said that they come from completely kind of different backgrounds.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: Like they are very, they're different people, you know, but those can also be compliments, but sometimes during moments of stress, it can also create friction.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: So are there any places where like they are stuck as a couple or on an individual level?
20:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't know that it's a sticking point, but I think one thing that I'm curious about or was interesting when this all came up is they have kind of unique roles within their household based on their strengths and weaknesses, as as any couple should, right?
21:06
SPEAKER_00: So one person is the household CFO, the bookkeeper is going to manage a lot of the day-to-day finances.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: And then the other spouse does other things in terms of making contribution.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: And it seemed like that took some work for them to understand and get comfortable with, but they also reverted back into kind of their stereotypical roles they had before, right?
21:28
SPEAKER_00: So again, like emotions and behavior and how they operated, they fell back on all of those things, not just here's some anxiety with the change.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'm explaining that well.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: No, you are, and that makes a lot of and that makes a lot of sense.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, when I was more actively practicing clinically, like, you know, something external might happen and it can couples can regress or individuals, right?
21:52
SPEAKER_01: And so it's very common.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: Right.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: And one thing I would add to that, uh, just to to maybe fine it a little bit more, the what Wife is the household CFO.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: She's the one that's that's managing the day-to-day finances, doing the bookkeeping.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: And because she lacked the visibility, they weren't maybe having those conversations as regularly about money when this change happened and she started asking those questions.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: It felt accusatory, I think, to her husband, where we had already kind of addressed that that it wasn't in her role as CFO.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: She needs information.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: She needs access to information so that she can, you know, do the budget and the bookkeeping and make sure they're on track.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: And in that moment where things had changed, they hadn't been having those conversations.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: And when they kicked back off because of the change, it felt like, oh, you know, you're saying I'm doing something wrong here when that wasn't the intention again.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: The old patterns, like the old patterns emerged, right?
22:50
SPEAKER_01: And I'll just speak kind of in general.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if this is I don't know if this is true or accurate.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: But you know, if I'm thinking about this couple, if I'm thinking about, you know, the husband here, you know, he has his work has has diminished, right?
23:06
SPEAKER_01: It's it's decreased, the income has, and you know, for some men, there is a sense of identity into being able to contribute and take care of the family.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so from what I think that I know or remember, like has a he has a very traditional kind of view around like masculinity and what it means to be like I mean, like being able to contribute financially, like is important to him and his sense of self.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: And so hearing that kind of regression and taking her asking as accusatory to me is like one of those flags that there could possibly be some guilt or shame there on his end that maybe he's experiencing as a result of working less.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that could be at play, but he's coming across as it sounds like defensive.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: A little bit, yeah, which is making it tough for them, or did make it tough for them to get back to the table and and have that conversation that was necessary to so that they could see together they're not in a bad spot, right?
24:10
SPEAKER_00: So it was like a self-fulfilling injury.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious if you wouldn't mind talking about that, you know, male provider identity, sense of shame or guilt.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: Any suggestions on how to address that?
24:22
SPEAKER_01: So, what I would say is that one, I think that, you know, so keeping in mind, like as an advisor, like I think that isn't it's important to know.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: It's important, like from like an information of like, okay, this could possibly be at play.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: I also would caution you or any advisor to go down that path of exploring because I really don't know if that's possibly like your lane.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: I think it's important to know, like, oh, okay, maybe there is some shame, like just as like a fact, like it gives some context there, but I don't know if that's where then you need to explore some of that.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: Where it's helpful to know is that if it continues maybe to show up in a way of he's very defensive, like not willing to come back to the table and have like those conversations with her, like he previously was, like that's one of those maybe signs of like, you know, in our case, in our working relationship, like I would do a check-in with them.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: But if you didn't have somebody on your team, and I'm speaking more kind of to the listeners here, if you didn't have somebody on your team, like this also could be a point where you might refer to either a couples therapist or a financial therapist as well.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: So, in terms of like what to do for you, like I would tell you, like, that's when you email me, which I know you would.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and you do.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: But like, uh like there's that line there.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, I I just know as a as a man, as a father and a husband, if I was to put myself in the opposite, you know, role, I don't know that I want to be called out on that.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: But as an advisor, it is an interesting observation and it makes a lot of sense because I would feel similarly.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: I don't think you need to call them out.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: It's just more of like uh, okay, there could be some other thing, you know, thinking about that iceberg, like, okay, there could be some other things going on here, like if we, you know, kind of pull back the curtain or look below the water.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm just I laughed before because I was I was glad that the feedback and the coaching was to not go there because that's not something that, you know, I necessarily want to open that.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: No, Jim, just call me.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: No, no, Jim.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: Text me or text me or email me.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: But I do think like sometimes having just, you know, just knowing is enough, right?
26:27
SPEAKER_01: Just knowing that there are other pieces at play here.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: Now, you know, it does and can make it difficult if it's continuing to impact, you know, on the working relationship, right?
26:39
SPEAKER_01: If they're just not coming together and having these discussions, which is not this couple, by the way.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: And and so one of the good things about for situations like this, when you have, I'll just say a couple, when you have a couple who has made really great progress and they've shown that like what it looks like, they know like how to do it.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: And then there's a setback.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I like to do is acknowledge, like, hey, like you guys have taken maybe a half step back financially, but maybe a step or two back relationally.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: And that's okay.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: You know how to get back to where you were.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Like you already, you've already done it.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: Like there, you already know what the path looks like.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: Some of this might be a little bit different, but I do like to try and reflect like you've done this before.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: You know how to do it.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: How can we take small steps to start to walk that path again?
27:31
SPEAKER_01: And that might be for you, like that's a great place, like conversationally for you of like what needs to happen?
27:37
SPEAKER_01: What are each of you willing to do?
27:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, because there might be some parts that they're not willing to do too.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: So asking, what are you willing to do?
27:45
SPEAKER_01: I think that can be just a great place conversationally to start to try and one, instill some hope too, but also try to maybe gain a little bit of momentum with them, some low-hanging fruit types of things.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I could see that being really useful again, because as they started to have even the glimmer of an understanding that they weren't falling so far backwards, they still were in a decent spot.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: You could see that that hope that you mentioned start to kind of present itself.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, figuring out where do we go from here would be super helpful.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I find too that sometimes it doesn't take couples nearly as long to get back, you know, to to where they were the second time around, you know, because there's a like they've done it before.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: So like they know Yeah.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: So again, even the fact that they weren't communicating, they already had the blueprint, right?
28:37
SPEAKER_00: And they've done it a million times by that point.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: So it's like, hey, remember that thing that was really useful and important that you were doing for it pretty regularly?
28:46
SPEAKER_00: Just do that again, right?
28:47
SPEAKER_00: And they don't have to get comfortable with like, you know, what does this money conversation look like?
28:52
SPEAKER_00: We've already done it before.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: I think those are all helpful things.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: And I I guess to reiterate, just here, kind of maybe the last piece is, you know, not being afraid to remind them of the resources out there.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, in our case, like, hey, we've got Ashley on our team, or hey, like sometimes it can be helpful to talk to a financial therapist or like, would you like for me to, you know, shoot you some some names there of some context?
29:17
SPEAKER_01: Like sometimes it can be helpful just to remind them of what resources are available because we forget.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: Right.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's having reminders is just nice.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: And I can speak to obviously we have a partnership, so you're on call, as you've mentioned, which is a huge resource.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: But even if an advisor didn't have that, I would say that it's always really amazing to me when I start to bring up the fact that we do have resources, that there is somebody that can help with this conversation that we can get you in front of to help you process some of this stuff.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: Just bringing up the fact that there is some type of resource out there.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: You can kind of see people's shoulders lower, they breathe a sigh of relief.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: They're open to having the conversation, right?
29:59
SPEAKER_00: If we bring that up.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: That's such a good point.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: They want to be seen, they want to be heard, they want the resource, right?
30:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that you mentioned that because it is true.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: It is very, very true.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: All right, Jim, we've kind of walked through on the advisor side, you know, some things about you, some things about, you know, the couple and you know, individually here.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious, like as we're wrapping things up, is there anything that we didn't get to or any other last burning questions uh that you want to explore?
30:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: I think we uh I think we covered most of it.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: Great.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: So I'd love for you, you know, you do amazing work.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: You're out there, you have a podcast, you do great things for advisors maybe who are interested in learning a little bit more about you, want to get to know you, just maybe share a little bit where can people find you, where can they hang out with you?
30:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: So modernfinancial wellness.com.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: I don't know when this is gonna air.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: I mentioned before the new firm is Modern Financial Wellness.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: We're in the midst of the launch right now.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: So if you go there, it's either gonna be a podcast only or it's gonna be my RIA.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: So that would be a good place to check out either way.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm on LinkedIn, um, I'm on Instagram, Modern Financial Wellness, and I'd love to connect if if people are out there thinking about this kind of work as practitioners.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: Ashley mentioned the podcast.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to have you on to tell your story.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: How are you incorporating these things into your client work?
31:24
SPEAKER_00: What kind of success are you finding?
31:25
SPEAKER_00: So, so yeah, definitely reach out.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Jim has a great podcast, by the way.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: I would encourage everyone to listen to it.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: It's really just fantastic.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: I can't uh speak highly enough about it.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: So I would encourage you to yeah, check that out um as well.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: We'll make sure that we include all those links in the show notes.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: And Jim, listen, you and I will be chatting a lot more.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: So because we we work together.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: So this won't be the last time that you and I uh chat.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: But for today, thank you so much for coming on and being willing to share about this and be vulnerable and put yourself out there in that way.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: It's not uh it's not easy.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: So I do appreciate that.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure that everyone listening will gain some value from it.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you made it really fun, like I expected.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: This was a lot of fun.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: I I do appreciate that.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: And thank you to all of you out there listening and for tuning in today.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for allowing Jim and I into your mind and into your ears and a part of your day.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love to keep the connection going.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: Just as Jim mentioned, you can find him on LinkedIn.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: You can also find me on LinkedIn as well at Ashley Kwame.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: Share weekly insights on the human side of planning on that platform.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: And if you want even more Ashley Kwame or even more Beyond the Plan, you can check out and subscribe to our monthly newsletter at www.beyonthefp.com.
32:43
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32:49
SPEAKER_01: And as always, remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
33:03
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33:09
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33:15
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33:20
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33:42
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33:46
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