Latest / IMI Podcasts / #21: Benjamin Lodmell on the Complimentarity of IM and Asset Protection

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#21: Benjamin Lodmell on the Complimentarity of IM and Asset Protection · IMI Podcasts

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7 p.m.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: in Dubai, 3 p.m.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: in Lisbon, 11 a.m.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: in St.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Kitts.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to a new episode of the Mobility Standard, the podcast where we dissect current events, trends, and crucial questions related to investment migration.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Christian Nesheim, editor of Investment Migration Insider.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, I had the pleasure of talking to Benjamin Ludmel of the world's leading asset protection specialist, Ludmel and Ludmel.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I spoke to Benjamin about how and why he, as a Norwegian American, spent decades working in half a dozen countries before finally settling in Lisbon.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: What made Lisbon stick for him, right?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: We spoke about what asset protection is and who needs it.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: We also discussed why asset protection and investment migration go hand in hand.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, we explored why the asset protection and investment migration industries have a lot in common in terms of A, starting out with an image problem that's gradually improving, and B starting out as a service for just a small segment of society to gradually becoming a mainstream service.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: All of that and a great deal more in today's episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to remind you that you can follow all of iMyStories on our website, immydaily.com, on our mobile phone apps, in our free newsletters, as well as on your favorite social media network.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can also follow this podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and most other podcast platforms.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: With the preambles out of the way, let's get this show on the road.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm here in my office with uh Mr.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Benjamin Ludmel of Ludmel and Ludmel.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um we've known each other for some time, and I know that uh Benjamin has an extremely interesting backstory, and he's now in the asset protection industry.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there are lots of interesting parallels between asset protection and investment migration, and we're gonna talk a little bit about that or a lot about that in this uh episode.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: But uh first I want to do what we always do on the mobility standard, which is to ask the guest to introduce himself and to explain a little bit about where they come from and how they ended up doing what they're doing now.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: So why don't you take it away, Benjamin?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me here.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a big fan of this podcast.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've listened to everything and learned a lot, and I'm a big believer that the investment migration industry is in a growth mode, and this is a wonderful platform and a great podcast.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for having me.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I mean, I'm an American.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm born in Phoenix, Arizona.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I'm we're in a Norwegian-American family, kind of the typical uh story.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the grandparents immigrate from Norway and to Montana, and they're buckwheat farmers.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And uh dad had uh, you know, he's 87, so he's kind of a uh depression era guy.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he had rheumatoid arthritis when he was a teenager, so that's why we moved to Arizona because his family had to go there for for health reasons.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, typical story the his two brothers become paratroopers and go off to, you know, shipped off to Korea.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And dad becomes a lawyer because he can't, you know, work or go to the military.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how he became a lawyer.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think his bar number must be number nine or something in in Arizona.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just so yeah.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, dad became an a state planner, um, you know, started the practice probably 50 years ago, and uh I went off to Connecticut College for undergrad and then got into private banking in in the early 90s, and that was really exciting.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I worked all over the world uh in that in that industry.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, my brother was in law school at uh at uh Cardozo and New York uh university.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so in the mid-90s, we went back to Phoenix and got involved in uh this really brand new, I guess you would call it a subcategory of estate planning at the time, which was asset protection planning.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um we were real innovators in in that.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think we were absolutely original in the way that we marketed and and and networked and communicated.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think we we applied a lot of the uh techniques I learned in the financial industry.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, lawyers are really known for not being particularly aggressive communicators and and and running good sleek business models.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we were able to grow very quickly.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the the business is now probably has 7,000 client files.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're protecting probably something like$10 billion of assets under management.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's a um not under management, but but that we're protecting.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: So asset protection planning when uh 30 years ago was just almost kind of uh uh disreputable.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's um, you know, my brother just did the continuing learning education uh piece on on asset protection planning.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a huge change, see change.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I really want to get into that because I I honestly believe there are so many parallels to investment migration and what's going on in our industry and what's happening in asset protection.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna talk about those um those parallels go uh later on in the episode.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: But first I want to understand you and yourself because you know you live in uh in Lisbon or close to Lisbon uh here in Portugal, and uh you've before this you've lived in a variety of different places, you've worked in a variety of fields as well.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: What um tell me first about where have you where did you live in the past?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Where were the because you're a global citizen in the true sense of the phrase?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Where did you live in the past?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what brought you to Lisbon and why because now you've been here for nine, ten years, right?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So what made Lisbon stick for you?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, as a young banker, I was the country rep for the private bank of credit union in Brazil, and I I got to um really know South America a lot at the time, and that's that stuck with me.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I ended up, you know, over the last 20 years, I've lived in Brazil, in Uruguay, in Argentina for six years.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I lived in Peru.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um I lived in Mexico for several years.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we did.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I married a Senegalese woman.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we have five kids.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we've lived in in Senegal as well.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I've lived in Spain.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that uh the amount of time I spent in Haiti and in Sierra Leone and even in Norway, I feel like I know those countries well enough to feel like I live there.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And um probably I've traveled to 55 different countries.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a big broad background in terms of international living.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: And now, you know, Portugal's just my favorite place to live.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, after you've been living in all these different environments, I think this place is just heaven on earth.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: What do you love about it?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's it's you're in Europe, so it has that truly live and let live vibe, which I really appreciate about Europe, especially in southern Europe.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a small country, and I mean there's only 10 million people here.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, the weather's great, everything functions, things work, it's incredibly safe.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's uh it's a society that's also really diverse.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: I always say that this is the only country I've ever been in where people are both profoundly provincial and profoundly cosmopolitan at the same time, which is so interesting because they're real rooted in their traditions.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Most people have some village that they come from, you know, or some regional identity.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then yet it's just this history of this huge colonial empire, and people are mixed, and they have uncles that you know lived in Angola or Mozambique or Cape Verde for many years, and you know, it's a it's a diverse society.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's a multicultural society, so I feel real comfortable here.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: But it's you mentioned to me the other day that uh you thought the Portuguese as a people were humble.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: What did you mean by that?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's not a country with a big ego and real, you know, with the sort of sun god, you know, the world rotates around them.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Even in Southern Europe, if you look at Spain or Italy and France, these are countries with much stronger sort of um national identities.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Portuguese have been immigrating for generations.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're, you know, in the construction industry in in Switzerland, or you know, uh public, you know, street cleaning in in the 60s in France, or you know, waiters in in London.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um they're an immigrant society.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, they don't they can't really afford to have a big ego.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know everyone had to learn how to speak English in order to build their uh tourist industry, which is you know huge here.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big part of this country's um income.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um so yeah, it means that they're just humble um and they allow outsiders in.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel rejected or or you know, judged or criticized.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: People accept you, they they let you come, enjoy their country, they don't resent you, there's no pushback.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, that that is just not true for everywhere.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so yeah, they're humble people.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: And even their their persona, I mean, they're modest.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're more quiet, say than a Spaniard, for example.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's very interesting.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say because you know, I've I've lived for years in Spain and I've lived uh here for a while now in Portugal, and even though you know it's all part of the same Iberian peninsula, I noticed that people are markedly more quiet here.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um they don't take up so much um uh audible space, let's say.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they're more a little more conservative, um, a little more just uh subtle in in the way that they're even a little more moderate, I think.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um they're just uh they're calm people.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: You have some Norwegian roots.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um Ludmel, so actually the Ludmel name, so I'm also Norwegian, so I know what the Ludmel name comes from.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's Ludmel, uh, which is to this day a very common last name in Norway.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um tell us a little bit about your Norwegian roots.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I mean, it's you know, I think my my great-grandfather came over as a very young man, and um, you know, my dad remembers speaking Norwegian.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's something that I've always understood was part of our background.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I have some great aunts that are live to be a hundred years old, and and um they recommended that I go back when I was 17 to Norway where I, you know, spent a summer and just getting to know where we come from.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I literally saw the dairy farm in Hornendahl, where my grandfather grew up.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it was it was just a it was a great experience because it helped me understand that something happened before uh they came to the United States.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And most Americans, they really are kind of severed from the past and their identity is American.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're not real uh connected to their roots unless it's a particularly special family or or something.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: But most people, after one generation, they're they're totally severed from the culture.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, what kind of blew my mind is when I went there, not only did people look like me, but I realized I had a lot of the same temperament, um, which was really interesting for me to, you know, it's almost like you you go back and you realize, wait a minute, you know, a lot of your temperament comes from the blood, you know.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about let's talk about the asset protection industry.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: First, I want the audience to understand exactly what that is.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: So define asset protection.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, asset protection planning is just putting a legal barrier between the client and their personal net worth, typically like millionaires next door, um, in order to protect it from lawsuits and creditor threats.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the mechanism we use uh involves this combination of a family limited partnership, um, our trademarked bridge trust, which is a Cook Islands International Asset Protection Trust, and then we convey their real estate, their real property, into just a standard LLC.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, we securitize that equity and then convey this whole thing into the partnership, which is in turn owned by a grantor-based bridge trust.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.: What type of person needs asset protection planning?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell You know, 30 years ago, it was only really high-risk professionals.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, medical doctors and dentists and things, people that were really sensitive about being sued were the base of our client base.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's just anyone with net worth.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, we're in a system where anyone can sue anyone for any amount of money.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have to prove why.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: They can get an attorney for free on a contingency.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if they lose the lawsuit, they don't have to pay your legal bill.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a system that's not reforming, uh, the lobby's too powerful.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: So everybody, anybody who has, you know, half a million dollars of personal net worth outside of retirement plan, you know, a million dollars of personal net worth, in other words, equity in their real property, their home, bank and brokerage accounts uh outside of qualified plans qualifies.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why we're talking about tens and tens of millions of things.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's you know, probably 30, 40 million people that actually fit the profile of what we do.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So and your particular solution, you you told me on past occasions that there's only really one foolproof uh way of protecting your assets, and it's a it's a Cook Islands trust.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Explain what what's special about the Cook Islands judicial system that that makes that the only viable solution.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, they have a unique uh legal system that has allowed for what they call a self-settled spendthrift trust.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the way that you know my brother has evolved that uh into a product, which is the bridge trust, is is is really very special because it's an evolving legal document.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: But the the Cook Islands basically uh I mean the bottom line is if you were wire all your money to Switzerland and you were to resign as trustee of your bridge trust, and a professional trust corporation takes control of the estate, and you've done this before you were served, before you have a complaint in hand, that's so it's therefore not a fraudulently conveyant transfer.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: You're just resigning as trustee of a of a of an entity that already owns your estate.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So if a judgment comes down, then um since this Cook Islands trust uh is is governed by that jurisdiction, what happens is in order for um the plaintiff's side to collect, they would have to go to the Cook Islands and retry the case.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, there's duress clauses in this trust that basically say, look, if a judge says sign this document um saying send the money back, uh it goes to the trust corporation.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: They refer to the duress clauses and says, look, the beneficiary of this trust is under duress, we're not going to do it.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're welcome to come to Cochon's and retry the case.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: So our real goal in this process has been to really deter and avoid lawsuits and creditor threats or strengthen our clients' ability to negotiate settlements.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's it's a game.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh we just it's a prudent step and it works.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um it really does work.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: But what is it about the way uh this justice system operates in the Cook Islands that makes that a uniquely suited jurisdiction for this?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's the the fact that it's a uh you know uh a nation state um that has its own legal uh jurisdiction and a large and increasingly growing body body of case law of how this has actually worked.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I mean I think there was even a case where the Federal Trade Corporation went and and and lost in the court system there.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a credible tried and true jurisdiction.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm sure there are some jurisdictions that are trying to compete with the Cook Islands, but the Cook Islands is the gold standard.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give me um some real-world examples, obviously without using any identifiable details, but some uh some case history?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, the vast majority of our clients never need this.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not an insurance policy, but it's it's it's kind of like that.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, they never even get are in a situation where they need it.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, they're they they've they earn their money the right way, they're prudent professionals, they're ethical.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Our clients are all good people, you know, we do our due diligence on them.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so it's most people just don't have a problem.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: But say you get sued.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say give me an example.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but the ones that do, okay, well, let's say, you know, there's some gross negligence suit on one of your uh properties, something happens on one of your rental properties, for example.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, you get sued for malpractice in your in your profession.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, these are really serious uh accusations.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to go get a defense counselor.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you've got to go through the motions of you know responding.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if it gets to you know depositions, I mean it's a very stressful, very expensive, very bureaucratic process.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really get involved in the beginning until it's clear that after the defense counselor's gone through all the motions to you know deter it or settle it or fight it before it goes to trial.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that's a process that that is really handled by the defense counselor.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we we really only get involved if it's clear that the plaintiff's side wants to go to trial.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: They want to they want to have a case, uh, a court trial.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so at that point, it's like, okay, hey, wait a minute.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh um I call it the million-dollar phone call.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's when my my brother gets on the phone and you know has a thorough debriefing with the plaintiff with the uh the defendant uh uh counselor, and and then they really strategize how to how to communicate with with uh with the plaintiff's side.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, look, this is no one's gonna win in this process.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a it's a dip diplomatic play.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it's not like in the movies, you know, I'm gonna do this.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's real, you know, calm, cool.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um where you make it clear to the plaintiff that even if they win in court, there isn't much to be had from that.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, again, increasingly we're recommending that clients go ahead and go through the due diligence and get their money in a closely held Swiss private bank.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: These banks don't have branches in New York.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way a court can put pressure on them.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, they're credit risk-free platforms, they're amazing old, totally liquid institutions, and they understand, you know, I we work with an asset firm, asset management firm based in Zurich.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: They prepare the due diligence dossier, they're the ones that make the introduction to the bank, they're the ones that manage the money.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: So increasingly it's improv it's prudent that we go ahead and get the bank account open, educate the clients that, you know, this is a more sophisticated approach, not only in terms of strengthening the asset protection plan, but as as an investment philosophy and in terms of the security of the banking institutions.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have any debt on their balance sheets.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: They don't loan the money out.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Fully capitalized.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh that that's just also a really important part of it.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you've got your money offshore, you've already um you know have a professional trust corporation pre-appointed as the successor trustee.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're not out negotiating to get someone to take on your problem now.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's all done, it's turnkey.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a really truly powerful deterrent.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think that there are some very interesting parallels between investment migration and asset protection.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned that when you guys started out 30 years ago, it was kind of perceived as not really legitimate because after all, what you're doing is putting assets out of the reach of uh people who sue you and want to get your assets, right?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it was perceived as being in a kind of gray area.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's widely recognized.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Investment migration has kind of been through the same thing.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's increasingly it's acknowledged and legitimate, but it's still getting attacked by the European Union, the OECD, uh, etc.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one parallel.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Another parallel is that investment migration started out as Being for only the very rich, and gradually it's become available to the merely rich.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's available, you know, for a hundred thousand uh citizenship in the Caribbean.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: So now we're talking, you know, anybody who can afford a nice Mercedes, for example.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: So now we're talking mass affluent, not even rich.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it started out basically being something that Chinese people who wanted to go to Canada would use, but now any kind of nationality is interested in this.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: In your case, it started out as you know, doctors in the United States specifically being worried about malpractice suits.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's become something much broader.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: So those are some of the parallels that I see.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: What's your take on that?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I now believe that part three of this, I mean, is that you should have your asset protection plan set up no matter where you live, no matter what country you're from.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you're not from a particularly litigious society.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because it makes sense that that the United States would be the place where this type of industry would be born, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: But hey, we're we're getting more and more interest from people all over the world.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um because look, risks can come in any form.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: People have uh all kinds of risks.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh government entities, uh divorce courts, uh what whatever it is.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's there's liability now that comes from any source if you have money.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's probably more like the world's getting more like the United States in terms of getting more sophisticated about suing than less.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, yes, I think you know, anyone with with uh a million dollars of net worth, no matter where you are, should should do asset protection planning.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think everybody should go open up a Swiss bank account uh uh uh you know in a closely held Swiss private bank.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And now I think everybody should get a second passport or at least a permanent residency.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm I'm a big believer in in the Portuguese story because I think not only is this uh a great passport or a great permanent residency to have, but it's a great place to be happy.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's part of the conversation.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you don't want to, you know, that's what I think some of the limits of some of the islands in the Caribbean, for example, are.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I'm a I'm a big believer in in getting that that second passport or permanent legal residency.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's kind of part three of our vision.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: But you're saying get uh that second passport or additional residency in a place where you in a if you're in a bind, you'd actually go and live there.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: And again, you know, as people start to get more aware and more sophisticated, especially Americans, about what the quality of life is, and you start challenging some of the assumptions about lifestyle, you're you're suddenly like, well, wait a minute, why would I live like this if I don't have to?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, a lot of our clients are people that are real rooted in their their communities, they're they're very American, that you know, they've always been big believers in in the American narrative, and now they're open-minded to change.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so once they come and they check it out, um all of a sudden it starts becoming part of their retirement vision, or you know, maybe so the children start doing some education abroad and they can change.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: You're talking about the the as we call it, the love it or leave it, right?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're saying that that their minds are changing when it comes to getting alternative residencies and citizenships.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's a sea change.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's huge because you know, most of our clients are, you know, real conservative folks who are, you know, from Texas or something, you know, they're they're they never imagined that they would be open-minded to this and do this, and now they are.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: They really are.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and Americans are a curious bunch.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're they're open once you give them a chance and they come to Portugal and people speak English and they feel comfortable and and they start exposing themselves, it's it's uh they change.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, it I think it used to be something just for sort of a an elite crowd in the past, but now I think people are really open-minded to it.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think their quality of life improves.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think has brought about that change in the American mindset?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they now you know, in the past they were not open to it?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: In the past, America was the Alpha and Omega.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was the like you said at the beginning, if they want to ski, they go to Aspen, they want the beach, they go to Florida, they have everything within their borders.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: What's what's changed now that makes, especially the people who I mean the the people who are, let's say, leftists or or Democrats or whatever have always been kind of open to saying, oh, American.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Self-criticism.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Self-flagellation, American self-flagellation.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas the Republican guys have always been there to justify and defend the American way of life.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they were never, you know, even if even if the candidate, the Democratic candidate that they hated was going to win, they never threatened to leave America like like you would see people on the left doing, right?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: What's different now?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: I call it kind of the humbling of the United States of America.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's the assumptions that everyone made are now no longer assumptions.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, the narrative is unwinding that America's the best, that this is the place you can make the most money, that this is where you have freedom, this is where you're safe, this is, you know, where the system works, where the government is ethical and transparent and trustworthy, and where this is where people, you know, because of this assimilation model, we get along, you know, we we believe in the rule of law and there's order and and things will get a better.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's always been an assumption that America will always be ascendant, that it will always be only improving, and I just don't think anyone's making those assumptions anymore.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Whether, regardless of what your political vision is, right, it's almost irrelevant.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people are whether they are progressives or conservatives or far left or far right or central left, central right, I think everyone is now scratching their head and going, well, wait a minute.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: How are the asset protection industry and the investment migration industry, or or those those two types of product, how are they complementary?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um, again, it's almost like you start by going, well, wait a minute, maybe I should listen to these guys and retitle how I own my personal net worth to protect it from lawsuits and credit theats.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Then you go, well, wait a minute, maybe I should go ahead and consider, because it'll put me in a stronger position to protect myself.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um go ahead and open up a bank account in Switzerland.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like an evolution of your thinking.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden you're like, well, wait a minute.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I should get a second passport.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's almost like a natural progression.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's you start, you start with one.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the night that's what I watch them psychologically go through that natural progression of and they end up, you know, somewhere they never imagined they would have been psychologically, in terms of what they consider a good life and and the and what and the peace of mind that they have when when they've opened themselves up to these new ideas.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's it for today, folks.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: But we'll be back soon with another episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: In the meantime, I want to remind you to follow our work on HighMyDaily.com, the world's number one publication for investment migration, home to the internet's greatest collection of investment migration data, real estate, expert opinion, and the intelligence you need to be a successful investment migration professional.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.