Latest / The Daily Writer / How to Turn Your Podcast into a Book | Jody Maberry & Kent Sanders

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How to Turn Your Podcast into a Book | Jody Maberry & Kent Sanders · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hey friends, welcome back to the Profitable Writer Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: If you're new here, my name is Kent Sanders.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an author and a ghostwriter, and this is the show that helps you grow your impact and income as a writer.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, if you're a podcaster who has dreamed of having your own book, then you are going to love today's episode.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Last fall, my good friend Jody Mayberry and I co-led a webinar called Podcast to Published.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: The goal of the webinar was to test drives some material that we may later use to help podcasters use their podcast material as the basis for a book.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've been podcasting since 2013.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Jody's been doing it a very, very long time, probably longer than I have, and I am a huge fan, as he is, of repurposing your podcast material into books.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Let me tell you a little bit about Jody.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: He is a former park ranger who is now a sought-after podcast producer, speaker, and consultant.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: He's been featured in Inc., Entrepreneur, The Business Journals, at Podcast Movement, and many other places.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Jody works closely with business leaders like David Hancock, Lee Cockrell, Dan Cockrell, and others to bring their podcasts to life.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: In addition, Jody hosts three of his own podcasts: the Jody Mayberry Show, The Park Leader Show, which is for Park Rangers, and In the Front Row, which is a show that he created for his son.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Jody is not only one of the most brilliant minds in podcasting, but he's also a kind and wise and generous human being as well.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And those are my favorite kind of people, I gotta be honest with you.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: People who are really smart, but they're also just really nice and easy to work with and generous.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: I encourage you to go to Jody's site at jodymer.com.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's Jody J-O-D-Y, M-A-B-E-R-R-Y.com to find out more.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And of course there will be a link in the show notes.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's where you can go to find out more about his services as well as his podcast and other resources.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: In this conversation, which is really a webinar recording, you'll learn all about the benefits of turning your podcast into a book, including what kind of book you should write based on your podcast, how to outline a great nonfiction book, and the steps to move from podcast to published book.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: This was really, really fun.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think Jody is an awesome guy, and I love every chance that I get to collaborate with him.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope that you have as much fun listening to this as we did creating it.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Here's my conversation with Jody Mayberry.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, hello and welcome to the podcast to published online learning webinar, whatever whatever term you want to use now.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've heard don't use webinar anymore that people don't like it.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that tells me I should probably use webinar.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: If people are moving away from it, I'll step right into it.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: I did not know that.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm Jody Mayberry, and I want I'll address something right up front so you know.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, you're just gonna keep looking at me, wondering, is he ever gonna address that?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: I just had surgery on my face one week ago today, so that's what this is about.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it it'll be fine shortly, but it's here now.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's it's a timing thing.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: I it it just is what it is.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: I had to keep working, so it's looking better, Jody.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: It is like every day it's looking better.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: David saw it when it perhaps was at its worse and uh looked like I got bit in the face by a zombie.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I I am Jody Mayberry, and you're gonna hear from me, you're gonna hear from Kent Sanders.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Kent and I met years ago.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even remember what led to us even meeting.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: I've just known him that long enough that I don't even remember how.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't either.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was through some connection with Morgan James, I think, but I don't remember for sure.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: Probably, probably.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll talk about books and and uh Kent's gonna cover uh some stuff about writing.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'll cover podcasting and then how it mashes together so you can write a book.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Now I've I'm Kent has a podcast as well, so he certainly knows podcasting, and that's what made makes us a good fit for talking about this, because uh Kent has written some wonderful books.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: You'll see them but over his shoulders, and I've done a lot of podcasting right around 2,000 episodes.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't counted in a while, but it's right around 2,000 episodes that I've personally done, and then I've helped uh other people with with their shows, one of them being with us today, Donald Forgioni, his show Tailgate Talks.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've been a guest on the show, I've never hosted the show, but I helped him get started.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I I hope you don't mind me saying that, Donald.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Some people don't like don't want it out there, just like some people don't want Kent Sanders saying, I I ghost wrote that book.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Some people don't want me saying, Oh, Jody helped me launch my show.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I I uh put it out there before I got your approval.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: But just I say all that to say I've done a lot of podcasting, and what I have not done a lot of is I still do not have my own book out there.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: And Kent is like a machine when it comes to writing.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: He his side hustle is writing an extra book on the weekends, so Kent a lot about writing and getting books done, and I can turn just about anything into a podcast episode.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: And my I have actively right now probably six or seven shows, I should have counted before we started.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: My first show, which is still out there, is the Park Leaders Show.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's a show for leaders and parks and conservation.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: My newest show, there's a lot of shows in between.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: My newest show, and this I think will come relevant to our conversation today, is called In the Front Row.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: It is a daily podcast meant for one person.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's a podcast I do every morning just so there's a message for my son every day.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it it has surprisingly started to get a lot of listeners, but there's an audience of just one person, that's all it's recorded for.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want to talk about having a niche podcast, this is a niche podcast for one person, and that's it.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: And if it gets one download a day, I am happy because it means my son listened to it.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna I'm gonna have Kent do an introduction, and then I'll tell you where we're going with this.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is Kent is then going to talk to you about putting a book outline together because that what what we're talking about, that's the basis for it.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: So Kent will talk about a book outline.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'll talk about what to do with that book outline now and turn it into podcasts and how you can use that, the outline, to do podcasts because you're writing your book by doing it that way.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then Kent will take over and say, okay, now you've recorded all those episodes, what do you do with it from there?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then we'll take questions if we have time.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, Kent, give us an introduction and then we'll just get right deep into it.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure thing.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Jody.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: So my name is Kent Sanders.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you guys know that because my name's on here.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And my main gig is ghostwriting.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I mainly write books for business leaders and entrepreneurs and anybody who has a story to tell.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: I have done a little bit of celebrity stuff.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: The most recent one of those was a book called The Faith of Elvis that came out last year with um Harper Collins.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: That was actually I did that book with Elvis Presley's brother, stepbrother, Billy Stanley.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: That was really, really fun.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it really made me want to do more of those kind of books because it was such a blast.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: But most of the time I do books typically for business leaders, entrepreneurs, that kind of stuff.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the kind of on the side, it's not really like a little side hustle, it's a significant part of my business.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: But um, so I do a podcast called The Daily Writer.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, that's switching over to a show called The Profitable Rider in a couple weeks.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I also run a membership group called the Daily Writer Club, but that's we're actually switching that over to the profitable writer community.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason I'm kind of putting both of those of those things out there is because I've had this show in this community called the Daily Rider for the last three years or so.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And what I've discovered the last probably six or six or eight months in talking to a lot of writers is that the number one struggle that writers have is monetizing their business and actually creating income from their writing skills.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm kind of transitioning everything over to that.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I love books, I love writing.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, before I got into ghostwriting, I was a college professor.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: I taught at a Christian college in St.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Louis for many years and was a music pastor before that.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I've done a little bit of everything.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but writing is kind of my main thing.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: So Jody, excited to be here and thanks for the invite to be a part of this.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what a fun collaboration.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and the reason I uh what Kent and I kind of thought this was a great idea is because I've done a podcast for so many different types of formats or topics or situations, and Kent is a is a good fit on this because as a ghostwriter, it it's a little different.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: I know on of people that are here, Donald Forgioni has written a book.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it's one thing to write your own book, and I applaud it.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: Most people never do.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little different though with Kent because he takes someone else's story and writes a book, and they give him information in all different formats, and he has to reshape it.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so that that's why Kent knows how how good this will work doing a podcast or write a book, because he's taken, like I said, content in all forms and reworked it into a book.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's just a really good fit to talk about how to take podcast and reshape it into a book.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: So Kent, absolutely we'll we will go ahead and and work on the part that you uh on the book outline because that is going to be the basis for what we talk about.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I do want to say though that there are there are there are two ways you can do this, and we may cover both.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: We may just cover working from the outline, but you can do a podcast forward, which is new you use the outline and you create new content, or you can do podcast backwards and take content you've already created, if you already have a podcast, and turn that into a book.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: My main focus on this one is the podcast forward.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: But we acknowledge and are happy to talk about podcast backwards if you already have content.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Now, why a why a podcast instead of why can't I just narrate and record and and then use it that way?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: Sure you can.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Kent will tell you, you can, but the reason for a podcast instead of just recording yourself and keeping it to yourself is something really special happens when you have to make that commitment to show up every week with something to say.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because you build confidence, you get really good at talking about your topic, you so that's one.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: And even if no one listens, I get a lot of that.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: People get discouraged that oh, there's only not a lot of my shows not catching on.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but think about yourself.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's the that is my favorite thing about podcasting, just the magic of showing up with something to say.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one, and two, you might get unexpected feedback, you might realize one episode catches on in a way you didn't expect, and maybe you need to go deeper into that.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why podcast, instead of just trying to narrate out your book and then reshape shape it.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: So, Kent, you can take it from there.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: I do want to talk about um outlining books for maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm Jody, I really totally agree with you about the idea of having a podcast that forces you to show up.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: For me, a podcast has really been a critical part of building my business.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: So when I started podcasting way back in 2012, which I know sounds that's like the dark ages of podcasting, I had no idea what I was doing.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: All that I all that I knew is what's was that I'd listened to a lot of podcasts and I wanted to create something of my own, and I wanted to do some interviews.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I did a weekly show that was mostly interview-based, and my show has changed over the years, and now I'm changing it yet again to a show called The Profitable Rider at the end of this month.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing that has been consistent with my podcasts, as far as how I have thought of the value of it over the years, was that when you have committed to show up once a week or once a day or twice a week or whatever your schedule is, when you make that commitment to your listeners, you've got to show up with something.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a really important part of the creative process.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of times we we sit back and we go, man, when I feel inspired, then I'll create something.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: But the very act of just having a schedule and having a bucket that you've got to fill with something, that forces you to be creative.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's by far my favorite thing about podcasting is you have a schedule and you've got to show up and create something whether you sort of feel like it or not.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: So for the last three years, I've actually done a daily show.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's called The Daily Writer.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And um I would not recommend that anybody start a daily show unless you're really super committed to that format.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, it's been really, really great.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: That is actually what has allowed me to create a first draft of my next book, which is coming out next October.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's called The Daily Writer.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's very similar to in in um format to the Daily Stoic by Ryan Holliday.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: If some of you are familiar with that, it's like a daily reader or a daily devotional kind of thing, even though it's not really a religious type of a book.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, just having those little bitty short daily episodes, like one to two minutes long, which is what Jody, that's what you're doing with with one of your shows now for your son.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: I love that because you've just got to show up and you've got to make something every day.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And my the way that I have kind of approached it is I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna produce B level content.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: I never shoot for A level because I'm a perfectionist.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm shooting for A level, then I will always feel disappointed because I will never reach that in my own mind.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, some of you who are perfectionists can relate to that.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: But when I shoot for B-level content, people seem to like it pretty well most of the time.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And most of the time I think it's it's good quality stuff.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I have a clunker in there occasionally, but for me, that's how I have used podcasting.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so let's talk about book outlining for a little bit.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I could talk about this stuff for hours.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, I'm not going to, because I sort of geek out about these things.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like when you get a chemistry teacher and and they get to talking about atoms and molecules and all that kind of stuff.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I get excited talking about book outlining.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start out with three quick questions.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Number one is what is a book outline exactly?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, as we talk about outlining, if you're going to use your podcast to create content for your book, I do think it really helps to start out with a book outline.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be the world's greatest book outline or this highly detailed fleshed out thing, but it does help if you're going to use your podcast to then fill in that book.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: It does help to come to your podcast with some sort of book outline if you can.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think that really helps you to know what content you need to create and what buckets you need to fill, basically.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, what is a book outline?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: A book outline is basically a scaffolding or a framework that's the backbone of your book.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think of a book line, a book, a book line, I think of a book outline as the journey that you're going to take your reader on as they go through the book.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason to use an outline is that it makes it a lot easier when you go to actually create the book.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than sitting down and just going, well, I'm just going to write about whatever, you have that scaffolding or that structure in place so you know exactly what buckets that you need to fill.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if you can, the more work that you can do on your book outline before you actually write the first draft of the book, or before you go to create all your podcast episodes to fill those buckets, I think it's better.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: So try to get as as detailed as you can with the outline because that the more detailed it is on the front on the front end, the easier it's going to be to fill those buckets on the back end, I think.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: So let me give you let me give you three types of nonfiction books.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm assuming that we're talking, that we're not talking about a fiction book or podcast.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm assuming we're talking about nonfiction.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: I want to give you three options for the kind of book that you can write.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now, obviously, there's everything in between all these.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Books come in all shapes and sizes, but for the most part, I would I would encourage you to think about doing one of these three kinds of books as you consider putting a book out there into the world.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Option one is what I would call the Big Kahuna book.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a book that's going to be around 40 to 45,000 words long.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: This is kind of like a standard length nonfiction book.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they're a lot longer than that.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes they're up to 60 or 70,000 words for a full-length nonfiction book.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I would encourage you, if you want to do a full-length book, shoot for 40 to 45,000 words.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is a really good length for a full nonfiction book because it's short enough for readers to get through fairly fast, but it's also long enough to demonstrate your expertise.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And the way I would structure that is let's say you have 40,000 words or so, I would divide that into 10 to 15 chapters, probably using three to four sections of the book.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: So section one, two, three, four, or section one, two, three.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Have a few chapters in each of those sections and divide up your book that way.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that's option number one is what I would call the Bit Kahuna book.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Option number two is what I would call a bits and pieces book.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And these, I know these are kind of dorky names for book types, but we'll just go with it.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Just humor me and go with it.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: So a bits and pieces book is something like a 30-day challenge book or a 21-day challenge book or a 40-day challenge book.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: These are books that have little tiny short chapters like two to three pages each.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I really like those kind of books because they're easy to write and they're really fun to read.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if that kind of book is something that you've thought about writing, I would really strongly encourage you to do it because again, you can do it really, really easy.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because all you've got to do is come up with 21 or 30 or 40 little bitty chapters that you're gonna create in this book.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that also can translate really well to a podcast, especially if you have if you're creating little short episodes of your show, like just a few minutes long.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, then a bits and pieces book that's like a 30-day challenge or 21-day challenge, that works perfect for that.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Then option number three is what I would call the mini-me book.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you see these a lot in the business world these days.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I write, I ghostwrite a lot of these kinds of books.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: These are books that are about 15,000 words long, and people can get through them in about an hour.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if you if you take a print book, uh, these are going to be typically like five by seven or like 4.37 by seven.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're like little pocket-sized kinds of books, about 100 to 110 pages long when they're printed.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason these are so popular is because they're kind of like a business card for your business.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: People can read them fast, they can get a lot of value out of it, and you can write these pretty fast as well.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: I really, really like these books because I think increasingly people like short books.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can get your reader to get through a short book fast, they're gonna be more likely to recommend it and more likely to actually finish reading it.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: And if they finish reading it and get something out of it, they're gonna pass it along, they're gonna post a review on Amazon, they'll share it on social media.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, all things being equal, I would really strongly encourage you to write a short book rather than a big long book.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason that I didn't give any options here that are over like 150 pages is because most people don't finish books that are over 140 or 150 pages.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people do, but most people are not going to finish a book that's long.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, all things being equal, I would really encourage you to keep your books as short as possible.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Around 100 pages printed is a really, really great length.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: So those are a few options.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, let me give you five quick steps to crafting a book outline.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now, we could go really, really in depth on all these, but I just want to give these to you fast.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Once you've decided what your book out, what your book structure is gonna be, and what kind of book you're writing, the first thing you want to do, and these are just five things, the first thing you want to do is figure out who your ideal reader is and what problem you're solving for them.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you're kind of an anal retentive person like I am, or if you're like a highly analytical, highly structured person, you're probably gonna want to dive in and start writing right away.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I encourage you not to do that because what we want to do when we're writing a book.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is is have so my friend AJ Harper, she's a ghostwriter, really, really wonderful writer.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: She has what she calls a reader-first approach to books, which means as opposed to a book being about you and what you want to say, a book is really about your reader and what journey you're taking them on and what problem you're solving for them.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So before you do any writing or any of that kind of stuff, figure out who are you writing for and what is the problem you're solving for them.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't, if you don't have a clear answer to that, I would stop outlining and go talk to go talk to four or six or ten people who are your ideal audience members and ask them about your topic and ask what their big pain points are.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Why haven't you reached your goals with this?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: What do you struggle with?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: What are your obstacles?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're going to give you really, really good answers to those questions, probably that are going to be a huge help.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's number one is figure out who your ideal reader is and what problem you're solving.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Then step two in your book outline is figure out why your reader hasn't already achieved those results.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where these conversations can really come in handy.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Typically, people don't achieve results because they have lies that they have told themselves.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: For example, if you if you have somebody who so I learned this actually from my ghostwriting mentor, Nick Pavlitas, less use knows Nick.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the rest of you know Nick, really, really wonderful human being, a wonderful business strategist, ghostwriter, just an awesome guy all around.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, when I went through his ghostwriting training a few years ago, he taught us how to think in terms of thinking about the lies or the false beliefs that your ideal reader has.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought this was a brilliant way to fill in the content of your book.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: He talks about false beliefs they have about themselves, about your topic, and about your environment, about their environment.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I can go into a lot more detail about all those, but um, basically figure out what are the lies your reader believes and how has that kept them from achieving those results.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Then number three in your book outline is you're going to use those pain points that people have, you're going to use those obstacles that have kept them from reaching whatever goal you're trying to help them reach, use those and organize those into three to four major sections of your book and three to four chapters in each of those sections if you're writing kind of a standard length book.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: If you're writing a little bits and pieces book, which is like the those challenges, each of those pain points can be a separate challenge in each of those days.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, if a really fast way to do this would be to take, would be go out, go out to coffee with three or four people who are your ideal reader, ask them what are all the problems they have with this topic, why haven't they achieved results, and make a quick 21-day challenge simply based on their answers to that question.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: That is a super fast way to do a little book like this.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then of course have them be beta readers and all that.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so that's number three, using their pain points to basically come up with your chapter content.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Step number four with your outline is you want to look at similar books in your genre to make sure to make sure that you haven't left anything out.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: So go go on Amazon or go to a bookstore and look at the competing book titles and figure out how is your book different and what are some things that those books are addressing that your book doesn't.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And make sure that you're addressing some of those things because you don't want to you don't want to leave a gaping hole in your book that everybody else is addressing in those same kinds of books.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then number five is once you have developed an outline and done all these things, then I would encourage you to get some feedback from a few people and to ask them again what's missing from this outline.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Does this look good?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: What would you add to it?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what have I missed, et cetera, et cetera?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I would take those beta, those potential beta readers that you've already talked to, or those ideal readers, give them your outline and ask them for feedback.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Once you've done all that, then you've got a really solid book outline, and then you can go from there.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times what we do is we make this way too complicated.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's no such thing as a perfect book outline.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're a person who overthinks things like I do, um, I would encourage you just to go for it, get started, have some conversations with people who are your ideal reader and let them help you with this so you're not doing all the legwork yourself.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: People are really anxious to help with this kind of stuff.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: We all love to give our opinions, right?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Just look on social media.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody loves to give their two cents.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can identify a few people in your life who are ideal readers for your book, ask them for their opinions.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: More than likely, they will be thrilled to help with this.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: So those are some thoughts on uh book outlining.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna move over to now that you have your outline, what do you do with it in the podcast area?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you as you heard Kent talk about this, you probably realize which of the three outlines may fit you best.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: The big kahuna, the bits and pieces, the the mini me book.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think the the mini me book is is one.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: I if you already have a podcast, you can pull old content and create that pretty quickly.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: So this is so if you have your outline, I'm gonna use the big kahuna for this for my examples.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: So let's say you have three sections and 12 total chapters.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: And you may you there's one way you could approach it and say, okay, I will have in that, I'll have what 15 episodes, one as an introduction on each section, one about each chapter.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you could, yes, but I I think it can go quite a bit deeper than that.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: If you do short, focused episodes and and not say this episode has to be a chapter, you'll end up ahead.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: This episode could be a paragraph or a page in the book, but you'll come out better in the end by taking time to focus on something small.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: A good example that I what this is how I learned this.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: One time I created an episode of the Jody Mayberry show that is it was about one thing.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: It was about the outgoing message on your phone.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: So if Kent Sanders calls me, what does he hear when he leaves me a message?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think maybe Kent has heard it, maybe Donald has heard it.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I thought, well, I want to make an impression, a good first impression, even if someone doesn't get to talk to me.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I created a unique outgoing message for my phone.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I and it's always got a good response.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought, well, I'll turn that into an episode of my podcast.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I thought, really, it's so narrow, so specific, who's really gonna pay attention and listen?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: But that episode has gotten so much feedback over the years, and people will say, Well, I changed my voicemail because of you.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: And if they sent me their phone number, I'd call and listen to it and leave a message.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that was a real eye-opener for me.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of doing like the the 10 best ways to whatever, it was just very specific about an outgoing message.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: So then let's say I'm writing a book on marketing.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I didn't expect that to be a hit episode, but it was.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: So now I say, oh, well, maybe that's not a chapter, but that needs to be included in in a piece, so which rolls into the next idea of don't um when you when you do these short focused ones, you will get unexpected feedback and say, oh, well, that struck a chord, so maybe we need to go deeper into that.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and just don't worry about trying to cram entire chapters into an episode.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you do, it it just might be too big.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: And and Kent will confirm this that it is easier if you need 2,000 words for a chapter, it's much easier, I think, to have 5,000 words and cut it back than it is to end up with a thousand and then have to pad it up to 2,000.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: So do the shorter focused episodes and then and we'll talk about what to do with these episodes at when you're done with them, but the the short focused ones it will really help get some of these details.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if if you if you have I'm trying, I'm I didn't come up with an example of what what a your book could be about, but let's let's say you're just you're writing a book about um tourism in Vermont, and you want to do a chapter just about maple syrup, and you think you know you know quite a bit because you've put it on a lot of pancakes, but you don't know how it's made, you don't know, so this is a great chance to interview people to fill in the blanks.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, your your show is to write a book, but the things you don't know much about, if I want to know about the syrup making process, I interview an expert in that, and then I can use pieces.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: Kim maybe can speak more to how to use those pieces in as content, but now I can use pieces of that interview, it fills in the blanks, and the good thing about the podcast, people are more willing to talk to you when you have a podcast than just talk to you in general.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that's right or wrong, but it is certainly true.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: If I were to say, Hey Donald, can we just sit down and talk for 30 minutes?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: Donald's gonna be like, Jody, I'm I'm really busy.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I don't know.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Donald's a busy man.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: But if I say, Donald, will you be a guest on my podcast and come and talk about how you make maple syrup?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: He'd be, well, of course, of course I'll come on your show.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: That is a very special thing about podcasting.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: It'll get people to talk to you that normally never would.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, look at that.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: Rich as dogs making a guest appearance.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: Wonderful, wonderful.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so so keep that in mind.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: You've got 12 chapters, but that doesn't mean one you now want to do 12 episodes.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: When you know what your chapter is going to be about, say, okay, how can I break that into four pieces, five pieces?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you don't do the chapter in that structure because this is not going to be word for word.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: The transcript of the podcast is the book, but you've got to start somewhere.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: So if you take a chapter and say, okay, what if I have to make three episodes, four episodes for this one chapter?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: Then you say, okay, well, I need to talk about this topic, this topic, this topic, and then I'm gonna do an interview.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: So if you approach it saying, I've got 12 chapters, I'm gonna do three episodes myself on that chapter, and then I'm gonna interview an expert about that.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: So now you can start to see where oh, this is this is getting bigger.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want one of the reasons people give up on podcasts, the average show last seven episodes, I've heard it's up to 10 now.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the reasons is people it is all right.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give you all three.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: This wasn't supposed to be what I talked about, but I'll give you the three reasons I have found, and if you have a podcast, you can tell me if you have felt this.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: The first is editing can be a pain in the butt.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's tough.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: The second is that people have this grand idea, right?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I did too, that if I record it, he will listen.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: You've seen Field the Dreams probably.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Build it and he will come.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't work for podcasting.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: Just because you record it, people aren't going to listen.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're recording a podcast for a book, what do you care if people show up?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yes, it's nice, but that's not the purpose of why you're doing it.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: The third reason people give up, and it's not a single reason that makes people give up, it's all three combined, just gets overwhelming.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: The third is enthusiasm will carry you through five, six episodes.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: But then when you realize, oh my goodness, I have to come up with something to say every week, and editing is tough, and I don't feel like anyone's listening.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's when people end up giving up.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: So doing it based on this outline and doing it knowing, oh, I've got I've got to dig in deeper on this chapter, it doesn't matter that people aren't aren't listening.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bonus when people listen.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bonus when people give you feedback because you're doing this for you.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then it just that third problem, it's tough to come up with content every week.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: And Kent can tell you that is true, Donald can tell you that is true.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: When you have to show up every week, even if you always have something to say, it just sometimes feels like, oh, what am I gonna talk about this week?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: This eliminates that.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it it really helps.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the questions you might be thinking, though, as we talk about this, is well, if if I if the book is about everything the podcast is about, are people even gonna listen by the book?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: And the answer is yes, definitely, because not everyone that's gonna buy the book listens to your podcast, and people that listen to the podcast will be thrilled to buy the book and support you.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: So the that is how you take the outline that Kent talked about and start to use a podcast to fill in all the words for those.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Now, bits and pieces book.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: I want to touch on that one too.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: Let's say it's 30 small chapters.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Kent just threw out that number as a what if.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say then, if it's bits and pieces, you could actually take Kent used his example, the Daily Rider, bits and pieces to fill out the Daily Rider.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: And let's say you you're gonna do 30 small chapters.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: I would say then do plan on 45, 50 episodes, because some of them might combine, some of them you may in the end say, no, that one's that one's just not a fit.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: So plan on if it's gonna be 30 chapters, go 45, 50, 60 episodes, and and then combine what you've got or eliminate some.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then the the mini me book, that's my favorite to pull old episodes.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give you an example of how I'm going to use old episodes.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: I started the Park Leader show in 2014.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: I recorded six episodes in 2013, and then I sat on them because I didn't like the sound of my voice.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I'm not really good at this.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I sat on them for months and finally released them in April of 2014.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: Every interview is different.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: They're mostly interview shows.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it'll be just me.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: Quite often it's me and my semi-regular guest co-host, Phil Gaines.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: But when I interview somebody, there's only one question that I ask everybody, and that is, how can an up-and-coming park leader have an impact?
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, a few years into the show, I haven't done it yet, but a few years into the show, I thought, you know what?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: That could be an interesting book called Impact to take the answer to those questions and say, what is similar?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Are there like seven themes that keep coming up here regularly?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I could go back and take just the transcripts from that one question, and do I could probably do it two ways.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: I could just publish them as is, what everybody said.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: That would probably be like a bits and pieces book.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or I can make a mini me book or a big kahuna book by taking their answers and saying what themes keep reoccurring.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: And let's say there's seven.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: So now I've got seven parts of my book or seven chapters of the book of the themes that keep coming up.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that is a good way to repurpose old content.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I I need I want to make sure we have time here to talk about you've done all the episodes.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: Now what?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we can end I we can answer any podcast questions that you have.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: This is just kind of an overview to say you have the outline.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: This is your ideas on how to use the podcast.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: Now Kent is going to take it and say, because he's done this a lot with people's content.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: You you have let's say uh you did 60 episodes for whichever type of book outline you came up with.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: Let's say you did 60 episodes.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, Kent, now I've got this big body of content, 60 episodes.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: Does that mean I have a book?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: What do I do?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: What comes next?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get back to the conversation in just a moment, but first I want to take a second to give a big thanks to today's sponsor, The Word Wizard.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you might have written an awesome book, but it's not ready for publication until it's been in the hands of a master editor.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's why my friend Karen Hunsinger, also known as The Word Wizard, is the perfect partner to help you craft the highest quality book possible.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason is that a great editor doesn't just correct grammar and spelling, they also correct wordiness, shifts in tone and voice, overuse of particular words and phrases, and they also enhance transitions, clarity, and accuracy.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: I worked with Karen many times, and trust me, she is your secret weapon for crafting an amazing book.
• 40:37
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• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's KarenHunsinger.com to get your free sample edit today.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now back to the conversation.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: So what I would recommend, there's there's a couple well, let me say this first.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's nobody's gonna like it when I say this.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way to get around the pain of crafting a book and of editing.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's just no way to get around the the pain and the the uh what what's the what's the word I'm trying to think of?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's just no way to get around the work.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: What everybody always wants to know with writing is how do I avoid all the work?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's what everybody really wants to know.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's why you see all these ads on social media for, you know, write your book in a weekend, write, write your book fast, uh, blah, blah, blah.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, maybe there's some merit to some of those.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's not a lot of merit to most of them, uh, because a book takes time to craft, just like anything of value does.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the good news is that you can do this yourself, or you can also, you can always hire a ghostwriter if you want to, or you can hire a developmental editor to help you weigh through the material, but somebody's going to have to take that raw material from your podcast and put that somewhere and work through it.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now, oh Les made a comment.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: What's the hang on a second?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he said, I think the work you're looking the word you're looking for is discipline.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yuck.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I totally get it.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I write a lot of books for people, and Les is a ghostwriter also, and both of us know what it's like to go through transcripts of interviews and calls.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh in fact, this this regularly happens to me when I'm working on a 15,000-word book for a client, for a little book.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not unusual for me to end up with like 70,000 words of transcript.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've got to go through all of that and boil it down to 15,000 words.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's hard.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's there's no two ways about it.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: It just takes time, it takes patience, and it takes work.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what makes it way easier is if you already have a book online.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if you already know what you want to say in the book, then you can take the transcripts of all those episodes.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, how you get those transcripts is you take the audio of your podcast, you can run that through something like Descript, which is the app that I use.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's services like Rev or I think it's was one called Timmy or something like that.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's different ones you can use to generate a transcript.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: I use Descript, it works great.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but you're going to end up with a with a lot of content.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think what you have to remember when you're going through transcripts is that most of that material is not usable.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: So what you're looking for is really the nuggets of material.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you are if you're like me and you are kind of primarily a writer and you tend to script out your podcast episodes, you're way, way ahead of the game because you've already got that written content.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: However, if you are basically a podcaster who likes to talk out content and do interviews and have conversation and sort of create as you go, then you're going to have probably a lot more stuff to work through because you haven't worked from already written out material, which is totally great.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think it just depends on how you want to create stuff.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a big fan of going with the way that you're wired.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: Some people are natural writers, some people are natural talkers.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a natural talker and you've kind of talked this stuff out on your podcast, um, it's gonna take a little bit of time to go through those transcripts and then plug that material into your book outline.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Have I scared everybody off yet?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: I hope not.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now let me let me excuse me.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Let me tell you something that's gonna make this a lot easier on you.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that is to, I would recommend you're going to approach a book this way, to use something like the Scrivener app.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Scrivener is a writing app a lot of people use, and it very quickly lets you organize your material into little folders, kind of like Google Docs, but it's way more robust than Google Docs or Microsoft Word.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's really designed for writers who need to move content around a lot in books.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: I use it all the time for my own projects, for ghostwriting client projects.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to use Scrivener, but you can.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if you take just a little bit of time to learn Scrivener, it really pays off in the long run.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Be that as it may, though, however you get those transcripts, you're gonna need to go through and pull out that content that's going to go into your outline, whether you're dumping that into Word documents or Google Docs or whatever it is that you want to use.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're gonna have to just go through and basically add intros, smooth out material, and make it flow as a book.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: And again, there's there's no way to get around the work of this.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody has to do it, whether it's you or whether you hire some help to do it, or you have maybe a development editor assist you with that process, or you have a co-writer, somebody has to go through and refine that material into a workable first draft.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I will tell you, as a as a writer, I actually really find a lot of creative energy in this process because this is really where you're creating the book.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: So whenever you're podcasting, it's kind of like you're going to the grocery store, you're gathering, if you're gonna make a cake, you're getting you're gathering the eggs, the sugar, the frosting, the other elements that are gonna be in the cake.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when you go to put that material into the book, it's like you've set the ingredients on the counter.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now what you're doing is you've put all the ingredients into the bowl and you're gonna start to mix it together.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that takes a lot of work if you've got a complicated recipe that you're working with.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: I find a lot of joy in that process because you're creating, you're building the book out of this raw material.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: So just kind of understand it is going to take effort and time and emotional energy to go through and craft that book.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: But if you are doing a little short book, it's gonna be a lot easier.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: So this is why I really encourage people to do little short books.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now, once you have a first workable draft of that material, then you're gonna go through the rest of the book publishing process.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna do probably a second and maybe a third draft, have an editor look at it, maybe involve some beta readers.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then you're gonna talk to a cover designer, a formatter.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna go through the other steps of the publishing process, whether you go with the publisher or whether you do it yourself.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: But that's generally what you're gonna do with that material.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: The very first thing is you have to get that transcript material into the into the buckets where it goes.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I would really encourage you not to just dump it all into a Microsoft Word document that's you know hundreds of pages long because that's not really workable.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: It needs to be in smaller chunks.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I recommend that you check out something like Scrivener, which makes the job way, way easier.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: But it but if it's a little short book, you probably don't need to do that.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how I would would really approach working with that raw material.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we now that I've depressed everybody.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully we got you all excited about this, and then Kent comes in at the end and says, but you still have to work and and ruins it.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: So now that that you've we've talked about coming up with an outline, how to use a podcast to run the outline, and now what to do.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: We we wanted to make sure we left 10 minutes or so here at the end in case you had any questions.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: What what is neat about this is this is an idea that Kent and I had been talking about and kicking around, and we said, well, let's instead of just us talking about it, let's invite some friends to talk about it with us and see what people think and the feedback we get.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: So normally on a webinar, people try to sell you stuff as they should.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: But Kent and I aren't really here to do that.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: We were here because we wanted to have this conversation with you and just see what you thought and what questions you have.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, Kent and I both have stuff to sell if you want to learn to write or you want to learn the podcast, but we're not even going to get into that because we just want to know what how is this helpful?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think?
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: What questions do you have?
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because that'll help us continue to to shape that.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, Amanda said, how long are podcasts at different levels?
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: It depends.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: So here's the wonderful thing about podcasting is there are no rules, it's all made up.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: There's no rules, and you can do whatever you want.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: The daily show I do is one, two, three minutes.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: The creating Disney Magic, we we try to keep it to 15 minutes, give or take.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: And there, my show, the Jody Mayberry show, I've had episodes as short as six minutes, and I've had episodes as long as an hour.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: So there they are as long as they need to be and as short as they can be.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: That that's always been my approach.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to create some, if you want to be disciplined, and because we told you in some of the promotion for this, you this can be done in as little as 30 minutes a day.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're probably only gonna podcast once a week.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: What's the the rest?
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the rest is the transcripts and all that.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: But if you want to keep it manageable and always do it in in small chunks, I would try to do 10 to 15 minutes.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: Take a piece, 10 to 15 minutes, and and there you go.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: So you can do anything you want, which is the great part.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh then the other part is uh if if you need some guidance, because I know some people say, Well, I know you say there are no rules, but at least give me something to work with.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I would say that 10 to 15 minutes, and if it's shorter, if it's five or six, that's fine too.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: So uh uh Kent, before I move on, I I'll pull another question here.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, what do you have anything to add to that?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um, yeah, you uh podcasts can look a lot of different ways.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll tell you the way that I do my show currently, and and it's gonna change here pretty soon.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: But what I have wanted from my podcast over the last three years is I wanted to number one, connect with people through interviews.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: The interviews for me are really, really important because you can you would be surprised at who you can connect with if you have a podcast.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter how how many downloads you have or how big your podcast is.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Guests typically don't care about that.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: The way that I frame it to people is I say, I don't say, would you come and be a guest on my show?
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: I always say something like, would it be okay if I feature you as a guest on my podcast?
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because I want to frame it as if I'm putting the spotlight on them and I'm somehow helping them rather than asking them to do me a favor.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's a very subtle difference, but there is a difference.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but just having a place where you can invite people to have conversations and you can share those conversations is really powerful.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the way that I have done my show the last few years is the interviews every week, and then I wanted to force myself to create a draft of my daily writer book.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I knew that my podcast was going to be little short episodes, one to two minutes long, for about three years, in order for me to create material for a really solid first draft of the book, uh, which is exactly how I used it.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: So now that I'm done with that, I'm kind of pivoting on my show a little bit.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say just think about what you want from the podcast, and that really helps you determine the format of it.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think all things being equal, shorter is probably better in terms of episodes.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, Les, I see your hand raised.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: I want to, Lisa asked a question in the chat.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to get to first because this is a really good one for Kent.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: If you use interviews from your podcast for your book, do you have to get permission from the person you interviewed?
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a really good idea to do that.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also a good idea to run the written version of the interview by them.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I had this experience.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I did a book for David Hancock uh a couple years ago called Performance Driven Giving.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I can say that because my name is on the cover, so I can I can say it publicly.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um there were a couple, who shall remain nameless, a couple of the interviewees in the book um were pretty picky about the written version of their interview.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so we would go back and forth two or three times.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like they would change a few words here and there, and they totally had the right to do that.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm and I would be the same way, by the way, if I was featured in book uh in a written interview.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, some people are gonna get very persnickety about what you said that they said in an interview in a in a written format in a book.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I would make sure and just run that by them and allow them to make corrections and edits to the written version of that interview.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you publish a book and they feel like what they said wasn't represented correctly, then um that may be kind of a not so good situation.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I would always get permission first, for sure.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and even if you don't technically have to, this is what someone else told me.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you don't technically have to, why wouldn't you?
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because you want their support and endorsement.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_02: And absolutely, yeah.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: So uh one more in the chat, just because I can answer this real quick.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: Are interviews normally a little longer?
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, almost always.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_02: It is it is hard to keep an interview under 20 minutes, I think.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: And if you can do an interview in 20 minutes, man, you you are on on spot on because it's hard, it is hard to do an interview that short.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, it is interviews are longer.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, Les, you have your hand up.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is um uh very timely for me.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, Kent, I'll get your input on a conversation that I had yesterday as well.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then, Jody, just from the platform building part, I'd be interested to hear your reaction to this.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was talking to somebody really who had kind reached out, Kent, and just with the help, he said he he had been thinking about writing a book.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: He's uh a good communicator, he's got a ministry background and a pastoral background, but but he wants to write a book.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: He he actually wants to have written a book.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: I I know exactly what you mean.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: So he wants a book, he doesn't he really not crazy about writing one.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah so in the process of going through, you know, and kind of pull that information out of him, um, he began saying that what he really would like to do is start a pot, do a podcast, start a podcast, do a podcast, and then turn that content into a book.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now, so and so when I saw this come up yesterday or whenever the announcement you y'all put out the advertisement of uh doing this webinar, I thought, well, that's certainly something I need to I need to hear about.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: But now keep in mind he wants to turn his podcast into a book, but he does not even have a podcast yet.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I know because of what John and I have have you know created with Andre Pastors, Kent, I know how long a game the podcast world is.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: But it is a great way to um to to um establish that voice and influence and and build that network and build those relationships, no doubt.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: But there's something that there's a spidey sense inside of me that wants to talk him out of that plan, you know.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to discourage him from doing a podcast if he wants to do one.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: He's more of a talker than he is a writer.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd have no doubt that he could do one, but like he's he's spoken to uh John Sanders, my partner, about who's a great podcaster.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um he's spoken to him about it, but when John gets into the details of certain equipment he may want to get or how to go about building that, he's like, Oh, I just so he's not he's the this guy's the visionary, okay?
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: He's a big picture guy, he's not a detail guy.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that conversation turned into what it would look like to collaborate with me, and that's and that's great.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: I I hope we do.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm I'm struggling with how to fit that podcast piece in there because not only do I know that it's not actually necessary if his goal, if his end game is to have that book out there, it's a way to do it, but I believe it'd be better if he already had one, you know, and had a hundred episodes banked already.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: But he doesn't, and that's fine.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I don't want to discourage him from something that he should do, but at the same time, I want him to get busy on the book if that's what he if that's his end game.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Y'all got any thoughts about that?
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: So he's he's wanting you to ghostwrite the book potentially that or developmental editing, yeah, but or collaborate.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's something in there.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's that's his homework.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: I want him, I want him to figure out who he's writing to, what probably what the pain point is, who who his ideal reader is before we move on, because that that the person that he comes up with may not even listen to podcasts.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I want to.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to find out you know who he really wants to write that to and for the the um old lady that you you know you write you don't write a book uh about something, you write a book for someone.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned her a few minutes ago, and I and I love that quote.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: And he did too.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: I would think the two things need to be really closely aligned.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: If if the purpose of the podcast is to generate book content, I would make sure the book outline is really, really solid, then then just use the podcast to fill in the the book content.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um if if that's workable.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the great, that's a great way to do it if that's what he wants to do.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I will say that it's from the perspective of a writer, I think it's much easier to create a book from scratch than it is for me to, as a writer, to go into loads of transcript material and try to create a book out of that.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're just you're wading through so much material, it's really, really time consuming.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that may be why there's this, you know, resistance inside of me.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't seem like that's the best route to go.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think it's because you're putting another layer in a process that's already it's already got several layers to it that people may or may not think about, and you're just adding more things to it.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: I would I would almost say in this kind of situation is do the book, or as you're doing the book, then use the podcast, use the book as the basis for the podcast instead of the other way around.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that would be much more streamlined.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think he may in in wanting to build this platform and establish his own, you know, influence as an authority.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think he's seeing it as maybe killing two birds with one stone, but I'm not so certain you just focus on one bird.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're they're two completely different formats.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there can be a lot of back and forth.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, they are they are definitely different.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Kent and I promised you we would only take up an hour of your time, and we're right at the end of that.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_02: There's one more question.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Amanda, interview tips.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm happy to talk to you about that.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_02: And now that you're connected to me and Kent, if you'll hear from Kent, I'm sure, and he's got his writing programs.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: I've got three courses on on podcasting, podcast magic, which is about having a great podcast, uh get podcast guest magic about being a guest on shows, and podcast interview magic, which is specifically about doing great interviews.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, but like I said, that's not what we were here for.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I will we'll I'll we'll be in touch with all of you and and um so that yeah, and Jesse, thank you so much.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, uh Jesse has a a really fun podcast that I I have to admit I never thought I would ever end up talking about Bruce Springsteen on a podcast, but yet I did.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: So there we go.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that that's thank you for the encouragement.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have any other questions, I will make sure Kent follows up with everybody so you have his email, you will hear from me.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_02: The replay will be sent to all of you, so you could you can watch it again if you want, and and then you at least have a way to get in touch with us.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: But we're so glad that you were willing to come and spend an hour with us talking about it.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, thank you all.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: That was great.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_02: It was really fun.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: Our pleasure.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, everyone.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: All right, everybody, have a good day.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: As I mentioned at the top of this episode, we had a lot of fun putting this content together.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've ever thought about turning your podcast into a book, or even if you don't have a podcast, but you're thinking about doing a podcast and you want to repurpose that material into a book, I hope that this has been helpful to you.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I've been podcasting since uh let me think, I think since 2013 is when I began with a show called The Artist's Suitcase, and it's morphed into different shows over time.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: And probably I'm gonna start a second podcast later this year.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: More details on that to come.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I've been podcasting a long time and I love it.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a wonderful medium.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of benefits to it.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, I think it's safe to say that I would not have a business today without podcasting and the connections that I have been able to develop because of podcasting.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there you go.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love podcasting.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you like the idea of doing a show, then you should repurpose that material into other formats, specifically books, which are also, as you know, amazing.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you wouldn't be here listening to this episode if you didn't think that books were amazing, right?
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: So again, I hope this has been helpful.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: Many thanks to Mr.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: Joni Mayberry for the opportunity to work together on this webinar.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: I had a blast, and I'm looking forward to our next adventure as well.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: As always, thanks for listening.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate your support, and I'll see you next time.