Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #891 The Perfection Trap with Thomas Curran (Part 1)

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#891 The Perfection Trap with Thomas Curran (Part 1) · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now. Hello, this is doctor Justin Coilson. Welcome to Happy
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  Speaker 2: Families Podcast. I'm so delighted to introduce you to my
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  Speaker 2: guest today, Thomas Current.
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  Speaker 1: Professor.
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  Speaker 2: Thomas Current is a British Psychological Society charted psychologist and
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  Speaker 2: an Associate professor in the Department of Psychological and Behavioral
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  Speaker 2: Science at the London School of Economics.
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  Speaker 1: A world leading expert on.
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  Speaker 2: Perfectionism, and he's written on perfectionism and a whole lot
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  Speaker 2: of related topics for Time Magazine and the Harvard Business Review.
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  Speaker 2: I'm just going to interrupt the bio for a second, Thomas.
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  Speaker 2: I'm feeling nervous talking to a perfectionism expert, Like I
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  Speaker 2: feel like I have to get everything right, and I've
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  Speaker 2: stumbled on a couple of words. I kind of want
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  Speaker 2: to do a du over already.
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  Speaker 1: Is that normal? Do people often tell you that you
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  Speaker 1: make them nervous?
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  Speaker 3: Well, to be honest, that job title is a mouthful,
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  Speaker 3: so good job.
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  Speaker 1: I'll hurled. I'm uncomfortab with the plays, but I'll take it.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you. It's a wonderful in true thank you.
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  Speaker 1: There is more. There is more, okay, Doctor Tom.
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  Speaker 2: Dr Tom Currin's work has been featured in The New Scientist,
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  Speaker 2: in the Times of London and has covered a whole
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  Speaker 2: lot of international publications, including The Guardian, The Economist, The Telegraph,
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  Speaker 2: The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times and Arian
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  Speaker 2: Huffington's Thrived Global Campaign. Oh and a few years ago
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  Speaker 2: he gave a Ted Med talk that's Ted Talks but
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  Speaker 2: for medical people, entitled and I've watched this a couple
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  Speaker 2: of times and gotten so much out of it.
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  Speaker 1: Our dangerous obsession with perfectionism is getting worse.
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  Speaker 2: And on top of that, this year he published his
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  Speaker 2: debut book, The Perfection Trap. And Doctor Thomas Current is
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  Speaker 2: also a dad to a little baby, not quite one.
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  Speaker 2: So with all of that out of the way, welcome.
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  Speaker 2: It's so good to be able to talk to you.
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  Speaker 2: I'm thrilled to have you on the podcast.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you, justin. It's wonderful to be here. I'm really
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  Speaker 3: excited about a conversation.
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  Speaker 2: Let's start with some fundamentals for any parent who worries
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  Speaker 2: that their child is perfectionistic?
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  Speaker 1: What is perfectionism?
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  Speaker 3: So perfectionism is a it's a personality characteristic, and it's
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  Speaker 3: it's a way of thinking and seeing the world in
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  Speaker 3: which we feel we're not enough, basically, that we are
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  Speaker 3: not perfect enough, that we don't have enough skills or
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  Speaker 3: abilities or competencies. We're not intelligent enough, not attractive enough,
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  Speaker 3: not fair, not healthy enough, all of these kind of
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  Speaker 3: you know, not fill in the blank enough basically.
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  Speaker 1: Isn't that all of us?
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  Speaker 2: Though, Like, don't we all just have that, I mean daily,
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  Speaker 2: sometimes hourly, as soon as we stop in introspect, do
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  Speaker 2: anything that could be remotely comparing us ourselves to anyone else.
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  Speaker 2: Don't we all feel like we are not enough? Would
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  Speaker 2: that not make us all perfectionists?
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  Speaker 3: Well, it's a spectrum, so it's not. It's not ideal
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  Speaker 3: to think about perfectionism as a sort of I'm a afectionist,
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  Speaker 3: you're not a perfectionist, right. We're all on the perfectionism
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  Speaker 3: spectrum at some level, and some people are lower, some
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  Speaker 3: people are higher, some people are more or less in
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  Speaker 3: the middle where most people are and everywhere in between.
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  Speaker 3: And as a consequence, it's really important thing about perfectionism
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  Speaker 3: as how perfectionistic are you? And some people have a
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  Speaker 3: lot of intolerance for imperfection. They will worry a lot
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  Speaker 3: about how they look, how they appear relative to other people.
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  Speaker 3: They'll think very deeply and careful about how they can
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  Speaker 3: conceal and hide their imperfections from other people in the
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  Speaker 3: world around us, to try to really soothe those shame
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  Speaker 3: based fears of not feeling enough. You know, this would
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  Speaker 3: be somebody who's very high perfectionism, right, they go for
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  Speaker 3: like thinking about these things almost on a minute by
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  Speaker 3: minute basis, and of course somebody who's lower on those things. Yes,
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  Speaker 3: they will feel in certain scenarios and situations in their
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  Speaker 3: lives that perhaps that didn't go quite so well, and
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  Speaker 3: I feel a little bit and adequate in that moment.
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  Speaker 3: But they're always a bounced back quite quickly. They don't
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  Speaker 3: dwell on it, and it doesn't have an overriding impact
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  Speaker 3: on their life. It's really when it takes over that
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  Speaker 3: perfectionism is really in the driving seat, and that's where
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  Speaker 3: you need to be worried.
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  Speaker 2: So is there an age where perfectionism doesn't exist, or
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  Speaker 2: maybe a better way to say it is, at what
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  Speaker 2: age do we start to see these perfectionistic tendencies creep
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  Speaker 2: into our children's lives?
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  Speaker 3: Like most personality characteristics. You're looking here sort of mid
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  Speaker 3: to late adolescence, when the personality really crystallizes and these
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  Speaker 3: tendencies can start to become dominant features of our identities.
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  Speaker 3: It's important to remember that this is very heavily genetic,
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  Speaker 3: by the way, and like most parent yeah, oh absolutely,
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  Speaker 3: like most personality characteristics, and the way we turn out
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  Speaker 3: is about half fifty percent predetermined by genetics. Nothing we
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  Speaker 3: could do about that, just the way we're born. And
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  Speaker 3: I think something, well, I think there's something remarkably comforting
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  Speaker 3: about that. Actually, when I was doing research for the
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  Speaker 3: book on person and how It's formed. At first, it's
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  Speaker 3: quite a confronting statistic, but actually, when you actually think
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  Speaker 3: about it, I think it takes a lot of personal
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  Speaker 3: power over the development of our characters. And actually, I
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  Speaker 3: don't know there was some solace to be found there. However,
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  Speaker 3: having said that, fifty percent still leaves a lot for
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  Speaker 3: the environment to explain. Right, So, as young people grow up,
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  Speaker 3: as they start to internalize things that are going on
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  Speaker 3: around them in the scores and social media, the parental environment,
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  Speaker 3: and all sorts of other places, there are all sorts
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  Speaker 3: of different pressures being thrown at them influencers being thrown
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  Speaker 3: at them and of course going to internalize those things,
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  Speaker 3: and they also have a massive impact on the way
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  Speaker 3: we turn out too. And so pervectionism is really an
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  Speaker 3: intricate mix of genes and an environment. But yes, very
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  Speaker 3: heavily genetic, and the rest of it is explained out
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  Speaker 3: there in the big wide world.
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  Speaker 2: So you talk about three different types of perfectionism in
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  Speaker 2: some of your research, can you explore those and explain
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  Speaker 2: those for parents, just briefly, the three different ways that
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  Speaker 2: we might be experiencing perfectionism.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, this is really important for people to be aware
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  Speaker 3: of because perfectionism can often look like high self set
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  Speaker 3: goals and standards. Right, So you're seeing young people need
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  Speaker 3: to be perfect to nothing but perfect all the time,
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  Speaker 3: just nailing every test, appearing perfectly at every possible moment.
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  Speaker 3: That there will be so much pressure to always excel,
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  Speaker 3: and there's a tendency to think that that's something that
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  Speaker 3: only comes from within. But actually, when you talk to
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  Speaker 3: perfection set people and you look closer about this trade,
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  Speaker 3: you see that it isn't just about high self set
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  Speaker 3: expectations and goals. You'll also see a very strong social
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  Speaker 3: component to perfectionism too, So perfections that people will not
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  Speaker 3: just try to shoot for high self set standards, but
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  Speaker 3: they'll also perceive that everybody else expects them to attain
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  Speaker 3: those standards. This is called socially prescribed perfections and the
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  Speaker 3: idea that everyone and all around me expects me to
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  Speaker 3: be perfect and I have to live up to those
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  Speaker 3: expectations all the time, and if I fall short, they're waiting,
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  Speaker 3: they're watching, and they're going to let me know. And
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  Speaker 3: there's also a third element of perfectionism. This is what
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  Speaker 3: I guess void would call projection, where those high self
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  Speaker 3: set standards that we expect of ourselves we also expect
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  Speaker 3: of other people too, and this is called other oriented perfectionism.
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  Speaker 3: So this is perfectionism turned outwards under other people.
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  Speaker 1: I expect you to.
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  Speaker 3: Be perfect, and if you're not, then I'm going to
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  Speaker 3: let you know. So these are the three ways I
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  Speaker 3: suppose the perfectionism can express and I think it's really
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  Speaker 3: important that people aware of them, because there's a tendency
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  Speaker 3: to think it's just about those self driven standards and expectations,
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  Speaker 3: but actually it's far deeper than that. This is a
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  Speaker 3: relation or trait. It operates in the social world, and
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  Speaker 3: it's actually those social elements of perfections and we need
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  Speaker 3: to be very very aware of. They're the most extreme
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  Speaker 3: and they're most strongly linked with mental distress.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, So I was going to say, in terms of
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  Speaker 2: the different ways that perfectionism shows up in our lives,
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  Speaker 2: which one do we need to be most aware of?
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  Speaker 2: And it sounds like you're saying the socially prescribed perfectionism.
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  Speaker 2: To me, it seems that a couple of these work together.
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  Speaker 2: So when you have that self oriented perfectionism that's just
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  Speaker 2: totally on you, you're the one who's driving yourself. You're
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  Speaker 2: the one who's pushing yourself. You're the one who's cracking
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  Speaker 2: the whip against your own back and just saying, come on,
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  Speaker 2: I've got to do more. I'm never good enough. But
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  Speaker 2: it seems that the socially prescribed perfectionism where you feel
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  Speaker 2: pressure from others, and the other oriented perfectionism, where somebody
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  Speaker 2: is actually putting their expectation on you, it seems that
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  Speaker 2: they're linked. In other words, if I'm a really hardcore
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  Speaker 2: parent who's constantly seeing to my kids, why do you
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  Speaker 2: want to get an A? I expect an A plus
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  Speaker 2: you're not going to get the hundred dollars, you don't
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  Speaker 2: get the puppy dog that I promised.
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  Speaker 1: You didn't score high enough, you can do better.
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  Speaker 2: That's me doing that projection and having that hardcore control
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  Speaker 2: or expectation of my child. But then they're going to
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  Speaker 2: be experienced the socially prescribed affections. In other words, those
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  Speaker 2: two seem to work in harmony. Would that be right
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  Speaker 2: to say? Or are they completely different things? No?
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's like you know, watercolors and a painter's palette.
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  Speaker 3: They all bleed into each other. And the thing is
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  Speaker 3: what you have to recognize two is this is a worldview.
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  Speaker 3: So if you're expecting yourself to be perfect and hauling
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  Speaker 3: yourself over hot coals, well of course you're going to
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  Speaker 3: think in your mind that other people think those things
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  Speaker 3: do So therefore there's a social expectation on you that
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  Speaker 3: other people are placing because they have those same standards
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  Speaker 3: that I have. Now you have to be careful here
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  Speaker 3: because even though this is a worldview and it is
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  Speaker 3: in you know, embodied in how we think can feel
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  Speaker 3: about our own perfectionism, that doesn't mean to say that
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  Speaker 3: it's only you know, confined to the interiors. Right there
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  Speaker 3: are so many external pressures right now to be perfect,
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  Speaker 3: and there really are people watching weight into powers, particularly
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  Speaker 3: in those massive spheres of social media, where you'll be
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  Speaker 3: lett know instantly if a piece of content that you've
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  Speaker 3: put out wasn't perfect enough.
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  Speaker 1: You know.
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  Speaker 3: So, even though this is a worldview, it doesn't mean
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  Speaker 3: there is an objective reality where there are excessive pressures
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  Speaker 3: to be perfect. But nevertheless, you're absolutely right there. Of course,
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  Speaker 3: if you're high and self oriented, you're likely to be
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  Speaker 3: high in social for those reasons, and you're also likely
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  Speaker 3: to be higher enough oriented, and this can this is
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  Speaker 3: where it can really become a difficult spiral because they're
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  Speaker 3: very much self reinforcing. And also you're talking about intergenerational
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  Speaker 3: transmission there well. Of course, you know, if you're a
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  Speaker 3: highly self were into perfectionist, then you have those other
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  Speaker 3: oriented and tendencies, then you're likely then to pass on
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  Speaker 3: that it's perfection tendencies to your children too, So it
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  Speaker 3: can become a really difficult intergenerational cycle too, where perfections
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  Speaker 3: them self perpetuates.
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  Speaker 2: So when I think about what you said earlier, that
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  Speaker 2: we see perfectionism showing up most in MINTI late adolescents,
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  Speaker 2: that intergenerational aspect, that socially prescribed element.
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  Speaker 1: You're answer kind of took me by surprise, because I
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  Speaker 1: do talk to.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of parents who will tell me that their
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  Speaker 2: five year old or their seven year old is such
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  Speaker 2: a perfectionist.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's the genetic piece. You will see certain
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  Speaker 3: early indicators of let's say, meticulousness, diligence. Children who have
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  Speaker 3: you know, really an intense what seems like anyway, an
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  Speaker 3: intense I need to do things just right. You know,
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  Speaker 3: it's a kind of need for order and structure and
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  Speaker 3: all the rest of it. You certainly would see that.
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  Speaker 3: But that can you know, as a growler can express
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  Speaker 3: in all sorts of different ways. It doesn't always have
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  Speaker 3: to turn into perfectionism. And it's only really, as I say,
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  Speaker 3: in mid to late adolescents where these things start to
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  Speaker 3: really crystallize and turn into a more coherent personality that
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  Speaker 3: makes us us, and part of that personality may be
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  Speaker 3: perfectionistic tendency.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Now you mentioned, Thomas that there is a strong link
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  Speaker 2: between mental health challenges and perfectionism.
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  Speaker 1: Can we just explore a little further.
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  Speaker 2: Because perfectionism doesn't show up in the in the International
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  Speaker 2: Classification of diseases.
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  Speaker 1: It's not in the Diagnostic.
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  Speaker 2: And Statistical Manual that psychologists psychiatrists uses their bible for
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  Speaker 2: mental health disorder classification. It is part of obsessive compulsive disorder,
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  Speaker 2: but it's not actually out there as a perfectionism disorder
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  Speaker 2: that people are diagnosing.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely, And the and the belief in the in the
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  Speaker 3: academy is that you know, this is this is this
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  Speaker 3: is something that sits underneath as you mentioned, they're obsessive
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  Speaker 3: compulsive tendencies. But the thing is, and the thing that
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  Speaker 3: a lot of clinicians have been arguing is that perfections
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  Speaker 3: are way more than just obsessive tendencies at route. It's
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  Speaker 3: this deficit thinking that I'm not good enough and and
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  Speaker 3: and then in order to feel recognized, approved of love,
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  Speaker 3: did I matter? That they have to be perfect because
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  Speaker 3: there's only one way to guarantee that approval and that love,
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  Speaker 3: and that's by being perfect. Otherwise, if I'm not, then,
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  Speaker 3: as I've just mentioned, people are going to see that.
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  Speaker 3: They're going to let me know. So if you live
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  Speaker 3: your life constantly requiring improval, recognition, validation in order to
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  Speaker 3: feel like you have a sense of self esteem. Well,
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  Speaker 3: you're going to see self excessive goals all the time.
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  Speaker 3: You're going to find them really difficult to meet because
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  Speaker 3: they're too high. So you're going to experience more of
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  Speaker 3: those setbacks as difficulties and count more of those mistakes
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  Speaker 3: and challenging situations which are so important for your self esteem.
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  Speaker 3: You're going to feel anxious. Self esteem is going to plummet,
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  Speaker 3: particularly in difficult, challenging moments, and then you're going to
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  Speaker 3: overcompensate to try to overcome those difficulties, challenges and failures
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  Speaker 3: by working even harder, setting even higher goals. And you
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  Speaker 3: can begin to see how perfections really sets in motion
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  Speaker 3: a very challenging cycle of self defeat, which leads to
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  Speaker 3: a lot of anxiety, a lot of low mood, a
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  Speaker 3: lot of depression, a lot of worry, rumination about how
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  Speaker 3: we're doing, hypervigilance of ourselves relative to others, self presentational concerns. Oh,
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  Speaker 3: there's a whole plethora just of mental health outcomes that
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  Speaker 3: perfectionism is linked to beyond just compulsive and obsessive tendencies,
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  Speaker 3: and that's why we call it was called a transdiagnostic
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  Speaker 3: risk factor for all manner of mental difficulties and it's
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  Speaker 3: really want to be aware of because the relationships are
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  Speaker 3: quite strong, and they're particularly for strong for that social
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  Speaker 3: eleim socially prescribed.
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  Speaker 2: The Perfection Trap is the book by Associate Professor Thomas
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  Speaker 2: Current from the London School of Economics at Tom thank
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  Speaker 2: you so much for your time and for joining me
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  Speaker 2: on the Happy Family Podcast.
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  Speaker 3: Faie Justin has been a wonderful conversation.
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  Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
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  Speaker 1: If you'd like more info about.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Making your family happier, check out Tom Curran's book The
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Perfection Trap. The Perfection Track is available wherever you boy
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: your books, or of course you can visit us at
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  Speaker 2: Happy Families dot com dot au