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The Warrens · Why We Do What We Do

0:20
Speaker 1: Welcome to Why We Do What We Do. I am
0:23
Speaker 1: your paranormal investigator host, Abraham.
0:27
Speaker 2: And I'm your partner in crime, we'll say, post-shame.
0:32
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah. Demonologist host, how about that?
0:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there we go. That works.
0:37
Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast, but a real psychology podcast,
0:40
Speaker 1: not a fake psychic psychology podcast, not the paranormal psychology.
0:44
Speaker 1: We're normal, normal psychology.
0:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, normal psychology.
0:48
Speaker 1: We like to, without the parrot, we like to talk
0:50
Speaker 1: about the things that humans and non-human animals do, and
0:54
Speaker 1: during the month of Halloween, we like to take on
0:57
Speaker 1: spooky topics, which is fun, although we do then spend
1:01
Speaker 1: usually the entire episode demystifying those topics into their less
1:05
Speaker 1: spooky realities. Nevertheless, we are here. We're trying to do
1:09
Speaker 1: the spooky fun thing in the time that we have
1:11
Speaker 1: remaining to us as a If you're joining us for
1:14
Speaker 1: the very first time, then welcome. We hope that you
1:16
Speaker 1: enjoy what we're bringing to the table in this discussion.
1:20
Speaker 1: And if you're a returning person, then welcome back. Thanks
1:23
Speaker 1: for continuing to check us out. And if you're listening
1:26
Speaker 1: to this on the day that it publishes, then it
1:29
Speaker 1: is October 21st, which means Happy Apple Day.
1:33
Speaker 2: I like the sounds that Happy Apple makes together. Like,
1:39
Speaker 2: that feels good. Happy Apple Day. I'm sure there's a
1:42
Speaker 2: word for it, because it's not alliteration, but it's similar.
1:44
Speaker 2: And it's also not quite a rhyme. It's close enough.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a slight rhyme, kind of. Yeah.
1:48
Speaker 2: It's also babbling day, which is what we just did.
1:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just saying, I'm good at that. Call
1:54
Speaker 1: me Brooke, because I am a babbling. It is back
1:58
Speaker 1: to the future day. Is that when the first movie
2:01
Speaker 1: came out, maybe? October 21st?
2:02
Speaker 2: I think it's when he traveled back. I think it's
2:04
Speaker 2: the day he traveled back in time. It's either the
2:07
Speaker 2: day he traveled from or the day he traveled to,
2:10
Speaker 2: but there's some relevance there, obviously. Not only is it
2:13
Speaker 2: Apple Day, it's Caramel Apple Day.
2:16
Speaker 1: Ooh. It is Celebration of the Mind Day. Caramel Apple Mind.
2:23
Speaker 2: Caramel Apple Mind. One with the Caramel Apple Mind here
2:26
Speaker 2: during October. It's Count Your Buttons Day.
2:29
Speaker 1: Nice.
2:30
Speaker 2: Could you imagine that being a threat? Ooh, you better
2:32
Speaker 2: count your buttons.
2:33
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that as a threat. Oh, man. There's
2:38
Speaker 1: also a really good board game called, it's a two-player
2:40
Speaker 1: board game called Patchwork, where your points are buttons. So
2:45
Speaker 1: I'm going to unofficially declare this a cousin day of
2:50
Speaker 1: the board game Patchwork.
2:52
Speaker 2: I love it.
2:54
Speaker 1: It's also Check Your Meds Day, related to Celebration of
2:57
Speaker 1: the Mind, perhaps. Oh, yeah.
3:00
Speaker 2: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. It's also Garbanzo Bean Day.
3:03
Speaker 1: Love garbanzo beans. They're the best. It is Global Dignity Day.
3:09
Speaker 1: Beyond Dignity Day. Yes.
3:12
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes. It is also International Day of the Nacho.
3:16
Speaker 1: Sweet. I love that, too. Love that.
3:18
Speaker 2: It is. Yep.
3:19
Speaker 1: International Print Day. Okay.
3:22
Speaker 2: All right. It's Medical Assistance Recognition Day.
3:25
Speaker 1: I recognize you, Medical Assistance.
3:28
Speaker 2: I do. We see you.
3:30
Speaker 1: It is National Pumpkin Cheesecake Day. Heck yeah, it is.
3:34
Speaker 2: Yes, it is. It's also Reptile Awareness Day. So if
3:37
Speaker 2: you like Mortal Kombat, then today's your day.
3:39
Speaker 1: I love that. I'm aware of you, Reptile.
3:45
Speaker 2: We know who you are.
3:48
Speaker 1: Reptile wasn't in any of the Mortal Kombat remakes, as
3:51
Speaker 1: I recall.
3:51
Speaker 2: Yes, he was. But he wasn't like a ninja. He
3:55
Speaker 2: was like an actual reptile.
3:57
Speaker 1: Oh, okay.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was briefly in the remake. He fought Kano
4:02
Speaker 2: and Sonya in a shed or something like that.
4:06
Speaker 1: In the 2025 or whatever one?
4:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, the prequel. The first one in that series, yeah.
4:13
Speaker 1: Okay. I'm going to have to rewatch because I don't
4:15
Speaker 1: remember that. I wonder if we're going to see an
4:18
Speaker 1: on-screen reptile. We got so off track. It is bullying
4:21
Speaker 1: bystanders unite week.
4:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if this is bystanders who bully
4:25
Speaker 2: getting together or if this is us getting together to
4:29
Speaker 2: bully bystanders, but whatever it is, it's going to be
4:32
Speaker 2: an interesting week for bullies, I guess.
4:33
Speaker 1: Something of that nature. Yeah.
4:35
Speaker 2: One way or another. It is drug and food interactions
4:37
Speaker 2: awareness week. So if you're on birth control, don't eat grapefruit.
4:41
Speaker 1: Wow. Okay. It is freedom of speech week, which is
4:45
Speaker 1: how we're able to have a podcast, I guess.
4:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the last one. At least for a little while.
4:50
Speaker 2: It's National Nuclear Science Week.
4:54
Speaker 1: That's important.
4:55
Speaker 2: Good.
4:56
Speaker 1: National Wolf Awareness Week. Be aware of the voodoo fees.
5:01
Speaker 2: Yes. Also, be more aware of nuclear wolves. Those are concerning.
5:05
Speaker 1: For sure. But we don't just talk about the holidays.
5:09
Speaker 1: That's just a silly thing. That's fun that we do
5:11
Speaker 1: at the beginning of our full-length discussions, but that's not
5:14
Speaker 1: even why you're here. Or maybe it is, and you've
5:17
Speaker 1: gotten what you wanted out of this podcast. I don't know.
5:19
Speaker 1: I don't know you. But we're here to talk about
5:22
Speaker 1: something else, and I'll get to that in just a second.
5:25
Speaker 1: But if you do enjoy what you hear in this
5:26
Speaker 1: discussion and you would like to support us, you can
5:28
Speaker 1: like and subscribe, leave a rating and a review, tell
5:31
Speaker 1: a friend, join us on Patreon. I'll talk more about
5:34
Speaker 1: those things At the end of this discussion, but I
5:37
Speaker 1: think we are now ready to jump in. Are you ready?
5:40
Speaker 1: Or am I missing anything?
5:42
Speaker 2: No, I think we're ready. Let's party.
5:43
Speaker 1: All right. I'm going to go on a brief side
5:45
Speaker 1: tangent to circuitously get us to our topic at hand.
5:49
Speaker 1: And I'm going to start with the fact that we humans,
5:52
Speaker 1: we seem to have some short memories about key details
5:55
Speaker 1: in history. Mm-hmm. I feel like we see this every
5:58
Speaker 1: election cycle where we forgot how we got here and
6:01
Speaker 1: then we make the same mistakes over and over again. Yep. Yeah.
6:05
Speaker 1: So we seem to have that. And further, we are
6:07
Speaker 1: prone to fantasize and accept elaborate, ridiculous stories so long
6:13
Speaker 1: as they make us feel something and they have a
6:15
Speaker 1: smidgen of narrative coherence. Just a smidgen, mind you. Yeah.
6:19
Speaker 1: You don't want too much narrative coherence there, but at
6:22
Speaker 1: least enough... to allow the story to exist in a
6:26
Speaker 1: memorable way.
6:28
Speaker 2: Yes. So much of our ideas, our ideas about ghosts
6:31
Speaker 2: are essentially made up of things like what are they
6:34
Speaker 2: capable of, how possessions and exorcisms work. You know, these
6:38
Speaker 2: stories about ghosts have largely developed and incubated by storytellers
6:41
Speaker 2: over generations, always iterating upon previous ideas to create something
6:45
Speaker 2: both familiar and a little bit new. So it's remarkable
6:48
Speaker 2: how paranormal things choose to follow the cultural zeitgeist as well.
6:53
Speaker 2: So I just wish there were more ghosts wearing JNCOs.
6:55
Speaker 2: That's all that I care about. Like, cause I feel
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Speaker 2: like it's all Victorian ghosts and like fancy dresses. Like
7:00
Speaker 2: I want to see like the kid that was playing
7:03
Speaker 2: Tony Hawk. That's like forever stuck, you know, as a
7:06
Speaker 2: Tony Hawk kid. So, but that doesn't seem.
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Speaker 1: To happen because they're fully invented. You can make that happen.
7:11
Speaker 1: You can invent ghosts wearing JNCOs.
7:13
Speaker 2: That's true. Yeah, jink ghosts.
7:15
Speaker 1: I guess the point of that is just to say
7:17
Speaker 1: that we have these ideas about the supernatural things, but
7:20
Speaker 1: where those come from, what those are, has been informed
7:23
Speaker 1: by sort of pop culture things in our storytelling. And
7:28
Speaker 1: one particularly powerful narrative that has shaped both cinematic storytelling
7:32
Speaker 1: and our ideas about ghosts and possessions is is one
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Speaker 1: that has been generated and cultivated by a real couple
7:40
Speaker 1: in history, arguably the most famous couple, paranormal couple in
7:45
Speaker 1: American or world history, and that is Ed and Lorraine Warren.
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Speaker 2: If you're not familiar with these names, you will be
7:52
Speaker 2: familiar with their works at least.
7:54
Speaker 1: Probably.
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Speaker 2: We're going to tell the story of Ed and Lorraine Warren,
7:57
Speaker 2: expose many of the lies that have been sold as
8:00
Speaker 2: truth for a pretty handsome amount of money, and maybe
8:03
Speaker 2: talk about a couple cases they were involved with.
8:05
Speaker 1: Exactly. So let's go ahead and dive in. Many people
8:09
Speaker 1: might know the names of the Warrens because of some
8:12
Speaker 1: extremely successful scary movie franchises. And before they were movie franchises,
8:16
Speaker 1: they were books, often of similar names. They were famous
8:20
Speaker 1: before the movies, very famous and long before. But the
8:25
Speaker 1: more modern understanding and recognition of those names likely does
8:29
Speaker 1: come from those movies, which I think breathed new life
8:32
Speaker 1: into their legacy. and helped solidify those names sort of
8:36
Speaker 1: in the annals of history. And this is specifically the
8:38
Speaker 1: Conjuring universe, which consists of 10 movies, The Conjuring, Annabelle,
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Speaker 1: The Conjuring 2, Annabelle Creation, The Nun, The Curse of
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Speaker 1: La Llorona, Annabelle Comes Home, The Conjuring, The Devil Made
8:50
Speaker 1: Me Do It, The Nun 2, and The Conjuring Last Rites.
8:53
Speaker 1: Those are all the movies that are sort of in
8:55
Speaker 1: the Conjuring universe, if you will. The first one in particular,
9:00
Speaker 1: very good for as far as horror movies go, a
9:02
Speaker 1: very well done movie, And actually, I liked several of
9:05
Speaker 1: the other ones along the way as well, personally, but
9:07
Speaker 1: not everyone's cup of tea. But they were also made
9:10
Speaker 1: famous for other stories that made it to screen as
9:12
Speaker 1: well long before the Codring universe, which is the Amityville Horror.
9:16
Speaker 1: And that was like a 1980, I want to say
9:19
Speaker 1: seven-ish movie. I forget when the first one came out. Yeah.
9:21
Speaker 1: But the 1980s was the first one. Then they did
9:23
Speaker 1: a remake with Ryan Reynolds, actually, in 2005.
9:25
Speaker 2: Yeah.
9:27
Speaker 1: And there's another movie called The Haunting in Connecticut. Again,
9:30
Speaker 1: these are based off of books, largely, that were written
9:33
Speaker 1: and published by them or by other people about their exploits. Yeah. Now,
9:38
Speaker 1: this is why people might know them. And in these films,
9:40
Speaker 1: at least the Conjuring films, Ed and Lorraine are depicted
9:43
Speaker 1: as these wholesome, good-natured, philanthropic, very attractive demonologists and... telekinetic
9:51
Speaker 1: psychic researcher type people who are very sympathetic and very
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Speaker 1: humble and down to earth. And that is by design
9:59
Speaker 1: as well. we will see. Yeah.
10:02
Speaker 2: You forgot one of the movies that's in that list.
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Speaker 2: It's Two Conjuring, Two Curious.
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Speaker 1: Man, missed opportunity on that.
10:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. That one's about haunted cars. Now, they also portray,
10:15
Speaker 2: like these movies, these stories, portray the Warrens as being
10:18
Speaker 2: summoned as do-gooders who don't even care about money and
10:22
Speaker 2: never charge their clients a dime. Their money, what little
10:25
Speaker 2: of it they earn, comes from the books that they
10:27
Speaker 2: write about their experiences helping people with their possessions and
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Speaker 2: whatever other paranormal activities that occur.
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Speaker 1: And we'll get more into that a little bit later
10:34
Speaker 1: in here as we unpack this. But the real story
10:38
Speaker 1: of the Warrens is actually darker and more sinister than
10:41
Speaker 1: the ghouls they pretend to have fought and definitely much
10:44
Speaker 1: more exploitative. So for people who have heard about this
10:47
Speaker 1: already and who are familiar with the story of the Warrens,
10:50
Speaker 1: we're not treading a lot of new ground in this discussion. Sorry.
10:54
Speaker 1: They have passed. A lot has been said about them.
10:56
Speaker 1: Both of them have passed away, I mean. But we
10:59
Speaker 1: hope that there's still some useful content here for everyone.
11:01
Speaker 1: And I always like to bring that nice skeptical angle,
11:05
Speaker 1: the angle of awareness, and just help demystify things a
11:09
Speaker 1: little bit. and the world. And I think people sometimes
11:12
Speaker 1: want to hear like, well, how do you explain this,
11:16
Speaker 1: like with these stories? And there is an explanation. And
11:20
Speaker 1: to help you on your journey to more critical thinking,
11:24
Speaker 1: we'll just talk through the things that happened. But first,
11:27
Speaker 1: let's get a little bit into the lives of these
11:31
Speaker 1: two figures here, which started auspiciously as an ad. All right,
11:43
Speaker 1: we're back. Just kidding. They did not start as ads.
11:45
Speaker 1: They were born like real people.
11:48
Speaker 2: As far as we can tell.
11:50
Speaker 1: As far as we know. Anyway, we've just been setting
11:53
Speaker 1: up sort of the legacy of the Warrens. So now
11:55
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a little bit their sort
11:57
Speaker 1: of life history and history. where just sort of where
12:00
Speaker 1: they came from and how they got to where they
12:02
Speaker 1: ended up. Yeah.
12:03
Speaker 2: So Edward Miney was born September 7th, 1926 in Bridgeport,
12:07
Speaker 2: Connecticut to a no-nonsense state trooper who did not believe
12:11
Speaker 2: in anything supernatural. So as a child, Ed apparently told
12:14
Speaker 2: his father he had seen the ghost of their dead landlady,
12:16
Speaker 2: which his father did not believe and told him not
12:19
Speaker 2: to talk about it. But the stage was set for Ed.
12:21
Speaker 2: He was on his own path very early in his life.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, he was intrigued by this experience, quote-unquote experience that
12:30
Speaker 1: he had. Maybe it was to spite his father, who knows?
12:34
Speaker 1: But I think they were still like sort of your
12:36
Speaker 1: traditional nuclear... Christian family. But like, aside from that, there
12:40
Speaker 1: was no, his dad was like a trooper. So he
12:43
Speaker 1: just was not ready to believe very many fanciful things
12:47
Speaker 1: as that was often excuses that people made up to
12:49
Speaker 1: try and get away with or make excuses for crimes
12:52
Speaker 1: that they had committed.
12:53
Speaker 2: Right.
12:53
Speaker 1: And in his experience, it was never that. It was
12:56
Speaker 1: always like, there was a real thing that happened here anyway.
12:59
Speaker 2: Right.
13:00
Speaker 1: So he was born in September, just four months after
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Speaker 1: Ed was born. Lorraine Moran was born in Bridgeport, Connecticut,
13:06
Speaker 1: not that far from where Ed was born, is what
13:09
Speaker 1: it said. And she was born in January 1927. Now,
13:13
Speaker 1: she had a somewhat similar path to Ed in some ways.
13:17
Speaker 1: She did report later in life that as a child,
13:19
Speaker 1: she could see auras around people that told of their
13:22
Speaker 1: future and could sense supernatural events and even like hear
13:27
Speaker 1: echoes of the thoughts in their minds sort of thing. Anyway,
13:31
Speaker 1: it's sort of a telekinetic psychic type ability is what
13:34
Speaker 1: she believed that she had. And she thought that this
13:37
Speaker 1: was normal and that all people had this. And I'm
13:40
Speaker 1: wondering now if these were seizures or migraines that caused
13:44
Speaker 1: her to believe that she was seeing supernatural things.
13:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Now, Ed and Lorraine grew up in
13:50
Speaker 2: ever closer circles of paranormal interest until their paths finally
13:53
Speaker 2: crossed as teenagers when Ed was working at an ice
13:56
Speaker 2: cream store and, according to Lorraine, offered to buy her
13:59
Speaker 2: and her friends ice cream, which got him talking to Lorraine.
14:02
Speaker 2: The classic, like, oh, the soda jerk bought me a soda,
14:05
Speaker 2: you know?
14:06
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I actually saw conflicting stories that maybe he
14:09
Speaker 1: was working at a movie theater. So anyway, he was
14:11
Speaker 1: working somewhere and they met and they hit it off, apparently.
14:16
Speaker 1: And actually, they were engaged shortly after meeting. Within a year,
14:19
Speaker 1: I believe it said, I think maybe they were up
14:22
Speaker 1: to 17-ish, maybe 18. But Ed had also enlisted in
14:26
Speaker 1: the Navy and was deployed soon after their engagement. This
14:29
Speaker 1: was the 1940s, so we're right around World War II
14:31
Speaker 1: going on. And while he was on deployment in the Navy,
14:36
Speaker 1: he had a brush with death where a boat he
14:38
Speaker 1: was on sank and they were rescued by, you know,
14:41
Speaker 1: standard procedure for when a boat sinks, they go out
14:44
Speaker 1: and try and rescue as many people as possible. And
14:45
Speaker 1: he was one of the ones who was rescued. And
14:48
Speaker 1: he had like a, it was like a shore leave,
14:50
Speaker 1: a 30-day shore leave or something. And during that, he
14:52
Speaker 1: ran home and Lorraine and Ed got married. And he,
14:56
Speaker 1: I believe, was able to maybe even stay out of
14:58
Speaker 1: the Navy after that. But anyway, point being that he
15:02
Speaker 1: ran home, he got married, and then they had a
15:04
Speaker 1: daughter who they named Judy.
15:06
Speaker 2: Yes. Now, once out of the Navy, Ed enrolled in
15:08
Speaker 2: art school on the GI Bill and learned how to
15:11
Speaker 2: draw and paint. But they were a young couple with
15:13
Speaker 2: very little income and a newborn, and their financial situation
15:15
Speaker 2: was becoming desperate. So Ed even reportedly drove school buses
15:19
Speaker 2: for a little while, which would be important later. So
15:22
Speaker 2: let's put a pin in that one. Ed Warren driving
15:24
Speaker 2: school buses.
15:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was school buses or city buses, maybe both.
15:28
Speaker 1: I actually found against a little bit of conflicting information there.
15:32
Speaker 1: It was not the most important piece of information I
15:34
Speaker 1: was trying to find, but he drove buses in some capacity.
15:37
Speaker 1: And again, that part will be relevant. So anyway, they
15:40
Speaker 1: cooked up this scheme where what they would do is
15:43
Speaker 1: they would drive around New England and find old Victorian-style homes.
15:48
Speaker 1: Ed would bring along his sketch pad, and then he'd
15:51
Speaker 1: basically sit outside the homes and draw them. He would
15:54
Speaker 1: often make them kind of look spooky and creepy. And
15:57
Speaker 1: then they would approach the homes with the picture he
15:59
Speaker 1: had drawn, show it to the homeowners when they open
16:02
Speaker 1: the door and say, hey, let's talk about your haunted house.
16:04
Speaker 1: And then they would offer to investigate and perform other
16:08
Speaker 1: services to these homeowners once they had sort of a
16:11
Speaker 1: foot in the door.
16:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, and to be fair, they didn't charge for these
16:15
Speaker 2: quote-unquote services directly. So, like, that is something that's come
16:19
Speaker 2: up time and time again. They never really charged for
16:21
Speaker 2: these services, although they would later ask for financial coverage
16:24
Speaker 2: for food, lodging, travel, and incidentals. So, like, they were
16:27
Speaker 2: asking for stipends, but not necessarily for an hourly rate
16:31
Speaker 2: or consultation rate for these services.
16:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we won't charge you for the reading or
16:36
Speaker 1: for the analysis, but, like, just pay for us to
16:39
Speaker 1: get here and we'll do the work. It's sort of
16:41
Speaker 1: the idea. Yeah. Apparently, some fun little tidbits here about
16:46
Speaker 1: these drawings he would do is apparently he really liked
16:48
Speaker 1: adding witches to his drawings. He'd draw little witches flying
16:51
Speaker 1: up rooms in the sky. And then, of course, he
16:53
Speaker 1: would add these flourishes to try and help sell the
16:56
Speaker 1: spookiness of the house, like drawing cobwebs and vines, making
16:59
Speaker 1: them look a little bit more dilapidated than they maybe were.
17:02
Speaker 1: And that just sort of helped sell the idea that
17:05
Speaker 1: the house was likely... I guess the house appeared scarier
17:10
Speaker 1: than maybe it actually was. Yeah. And apparently they did
17:13
Speaker 1: specifically try to choose homes that had rumors about being
17:16
Speaker 1: haunted already so that the owners of those homes were
17:19
Speaker 1: like primed to receive these types of guests and stories
17:23
Speaker 1: about their houses. So a little bit of clever, hot reading,
17:27
Speaker 1: if you will, beforehand is doing a little bit of
17:29
Speaker 1: research to figure out where will we be accepted if
17:33
Speaker 1: we show up to this home and then present them
17:35
Speaker 1: a drawing with witches in it with a picture of
17:37
Speaker 1: their house.
17:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Like, who's most primed to be susceptible to this, right? So,
17:43
Speaker 2: this strategy did begin to legitimize their bona fides, so
17:46
Speaker 2: to speak, but did not make them much money and
17:48
Speaker 2: still lacked legitimacy. So, Ed started reading books about demonology
17:52
Speaker 2: and then declared himself a demonologist. And that reminds me
17:55
Speaker 2: of the AFI does the Misfits cover of Demonomania.
17:57
Speaker 1: Nice.
17:58
Speaker 2: So, there's also that song out there as another …
18:00
Speaker 2: If we're going to go into the demon, you know,
18:02
Speaker 2: prefix and all that. There are no regulatory agencies or
18:05
Speaker 2: certificates of demonology. And his claim was as accurate as
18:09
Speaker 2: Joe Schmoe's claim. Like anybody could say they're a demonologist. Although,
18:12
Speaker 2: to be fair, even with a certificate or a regulating body,
18:15
Speaker 2: that claim would have been equally valid from anyone who
18:18
Speaker 2: would have made it. So basically what we're saying is
18:20
Speaker 2: no legitimacy when it comes to demonology.
18:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. You could say that you're a demonologist and
18:27
Speaker 1: nobody's going to challenge you on that because that's not
18:29
Speaker 1: a thing. And there are no credentials by which that
18:33
Speaker 1: could exist. And there shouldn't be. Even if they did,
18:37
Speaker 1: they would be just as illegitimate as if they didn't.
18:40
Speaker 2: Right, right.
18:41
Speaker 1: That is a thing that happened. But he just started
18:43
Speaker 1: calling himself a demonologist. He actually, at one point, said, like,
18:47
Speaker 1: I was born a demonologist and almost made it seem
18:51
Speaker 1: like he... had a hand in the evolution of that.
18:54
Speaker 1: It's a birthright. Interesting. Yeah, basically, basically. And that it was,
18:58
Speaker 1: it was part of him. He was never not going
19:00
Speaker 1: to be a demonologist was kind of his, Argument there,
19:03
Speaker 1: I think. Anyway, so they were doing this thing. He
19:08
Speaker 1: called himself a demonologist. They're giving away pictures to people
19:12
Speaker 1: that are creepy pictures of their houses with witches painted
19:15
Speaker 1: on them. But in a clever move to build more
19:17
Speaker 1: business for themselves and to boost their recognizability, they founded
19:21
Speaker 1: the New England Society for Psychic Research, or NESPR, N-E-S-P-R.
19:26
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
19:26
Speaker 1: And they founded this in 1952. And having this organization
19:30
Speaker 1: likely really helped bolster their image as legitimate and also
19:33
Speaker 1: gave them somewhat of a monopoly in this whole paranormal
19:38
Speaker 1: grift space because it's like Ghostbusters. And they actually even
19:43
Speaker 1: said in a thing that I think is very funny
19:45
Speaker 1: on TV wants to like, who are you going to call?
19:47
Speaker 1: And then like gave their phone number because they're like,
19:50
Speaker 1: we're the paranormal investigators. That's who you're going to call.
19:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
19:53
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that Ghostbusters borrowed that as the
19:56
Speaker 1: line for the Ghostbusters. Yeah. Later in the, in the
19:59
Speaker 1: eighties when that was being written.
20:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. This development of this organization was actually
20:04
Speaker 2: pretty savvy on their part. So they used their organization
20:07
Speaker 2: to form relationships with law enforcement, churches, doctors, and even
20:10
Speaker 2: scholars and reputable institutions. So they used it as kind
20:13
Speaker 2: of like a way in to be like, hey, we
20:14
Speaker 2: are a society to take this seriously. We want to
20:17
Speaker 2: legitimize this. We want to connect with you, legitimate people,
20:21
Speaker 2: and use your credentials to give us and boost our legitimacy, right? Yeah.
20:25
Speaker 1: Exactly right. Like, hey, we're friends with doctors. Listen to us.
20:43
Speaker 2: But it also meant that now they didn't have to
20:45
Speaker 2: go hunting for ghost stories. What ends up happening now
20:48
Speaker 2: is ghost stories come to them. And not only would
20:50
Speaker 2: they receive a slew of juicy stories that would allow
20:52
Speaker 2: them to choose the most intriguing ones to attend and
20:54
Speaker 2: later write about, but people who came to them already
20:57
Speaker 2: believed their supernatural events and were desperate to believe that
21:01
Speaker 2: the Warrens could solve their problems. So they didn't even need...
21:04
Speaker 2: major theatrics or any sort of performance arts or anything
21:07
Speaker 2: like that to sell themselves anymore. All they had to
21:09
Speaker 2: do was show up and go through the motions. And
21:11
Speaker 2: people were like, customers were just throwing themselves at the
21:14
Speaker 2: Warrens at this point.
21:15
Speaker 1: And that's an important piece of understanding sort of like
21:18
Speaker 1: how and why this turned out the way that it did,
21:21
Speaker 1: how they were able to be so successful, why they
21:24
Speaker 1: pursued things in the way that they did. Like really
21:28
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, this was a money-making endeavor.
21:31
Speaker 1: It was a money-making machine. It was not super different
21:35
Speaker 1: in some ways from a megachurch in sort of a
21:38
Speaker 1: similar sort of fashion is like you get your believers,
21:40
Speaker 1: you get a lot of people who are willing to
21:42
Speaker 1: throw money at this. You essentially use... The influence that
21:45
Speaker 1: you have cultivated to drive the opportunity to capitalize on
21:51
Speaker 1: your own success. And it sort of becomes, in a way,
21:55
Speaker 1: famous for being famous type of thing.
21:57
Speaker 2: And I think there's something really important here because I
21:59
Speaker 2: think when people hear this and you talk about this
22:02
Speaker 2: as a money-making endeavor, I think it's really important to
22:05
Speaker 2: understand the difference between the people who are reporting the
22:07
Speaker 2: paranormal activities and the researchers. So the Warrens stand to
22:11
Speaker 2: make money because they are the professional that's taking the stories.
22:14
Speaker 2: They're writing the stories. They're the ones that are doing
22:16
Speaker 2: the research, quote unquote. They're getting the money for the
22:18
Speaker 2: services or whatever degree. So they're making money off of
22:20
Speaker 2: that stuff. But the people who are reporting this, they're
22:24
Speaker 2: people who believe this stuff. And they are people who...
22:29
Speaker 2: they don't stand to gain from reporting hauntings because most
22:33
Speaker 2: people don't believe in paranormal activity. So the people that
22:36
Speaker 2: are reporting these hauntings or these experiences are often looked
22:40
Speaker 2: at as crazy. They are looked at as delusional, mentally ill,
22:45
Speaker 2: like it damages their relationships. They lose their jobs. Like
22:48
Speaker 2: the people that are reporting this stuff are not, there's
22:50
Speaker 2: no net gain here for them in most situations, but
22:53
Speaker 2: the Warrens are not the people that are reporting things.
22:56
Speaker 2: Their experience is they're reporting other people's experiences and making
22:59
Speaker 2: money off of other people's stories.
23:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Warrens are like the ads of the paranormal space. Yes.
23:14
Speaker 1: All right, we're back. We've been talking about the sort
23:17
Speaker 1: of evolution of the Warrens' legacy, that they created Nesper,
23:21
Speaker 1: they created all of these relationships with entities that were well-established, well-known,
23:26
Speaker 1: often very respected, and they used this to help sort
23:31
Speaker 1: of create a... funnel through which they could sort of
23:35
Speaker 1: receive the best ghosts and paranormal stories that they could
23:39
Speaker 1: then capitalize on these. And we'll get into some of
23:42
Speaker 1: their stories here in a moment. But to complete the
23:44
Speaker 1: story of their lives, they maintained this practice for most
23:47
Speaker 1: of the rest of their lives. They largely did make
23:49
Speaker 1: their money from publishing books.
23:51
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
23:52
Speaker 1: There are credible allegations that some of them were ghostwritten,
23:55
Speaker 1: pun intended. I mean, like they're real ghostwriters. Yeah. But
23:59
Speaker 1: like books were largely written by other people. I mean,
24:01
Speaker 1: they had a hand in some of it to some point.
24:03
Speaker 1: A lot of it from giving lectures. They loved going
24:06
Speaker 1: to colleges in particular, and they would do these lectures
24:09
Speaker 1: where they would talk about their investigations and their stories.
24:12
Speaker 1: which was right for people who were just out of
24:14
Speaker 1: the house for the first time, and they were just
24:16
Speaker 1: sort of rebelling and exploring and learning new things. And
24:19
Speaker 1: so there was a great audience for the Warrens to
24:21
Speaker 1: try and pull into this storytelling endeavor that they were
24:25
Speaker 1: embarked upon. And then, of course, they did make some
24:28
Speaker 1: money from their consultation fees for the Amityville horror movies
24:32
Speaker 1: and some of the stories and books around that franchise
24:35
Speaker 1: and that story.
24:36
Speaker 2: Yeah.
24:37
Speaker 1: Yeah.
24:37
Speaker 2: Now, they designed an occult museum in their home where
24:40
Speaker 2: they stored many artifacts, trinkets, and items from their paranormal
24:44
Speaker 2: investigations and exploits. That sounds dangerous to put like, oh,
24:47
Speaker 2: this is a haunted thing and this is a haunted thing.
24:48
Speaker 2: Let's put all the haunted things in the same building, right?
24:50
Speaker 2: That seems irresponsible from a paranormal researcher standpoint.
24:53
Speaker 1: What are we doing?
24:54
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're mixing ghosts? Is that what
24:58
Speaker 2: we're doing? That sounds ridiculous. So, reportedly, Lorraine did not
25:02
Speaker 2: really buy into the ghosting for a long time during
25:04
Speaker 2: their work, although believed in the religious angle and possessions. Later,
25:07
Speaker 2: she decided that the similarities between stories told in disparate
25:11
Speaker 2: parts of the world was evidence of their legitimacy, which
25:13
Speaker 2: is just poor critical thinking. Like, you're tying stuff together
25:18
Speaker 2: that's just not tieable.
25:20
Speaker 1: It's just like, well, they told this ghost story over
25:22
Speaker 1: here in London, and they told this ghost story over
25:24
Speaker 1: here in Texas, and the details of their stories were
25:27
Speaker 1: so similar. Like, how could it be anything other than ghosts?
25:30
Speaker 1: I'm like, because humans aren't that creative, because there's not
25:33
Speaker 1: that much variety you could possibly have in these types
25:35
Speaker 1: of stories. Like, maybe that's the reason. Right. But no, no.
25:39
Speaker 1: She's like, well, if they're that different, even though one
25:42
Speaker 1: person's in New York and one's in Texas, then ghosts
25:43
Speaker 1: must be real. I'm like, wow, that seems like a
25:45
Speaker 1: big leap to me, but okay.
25:47
Speaker 2: That's a leap.
25:47
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, Ed Warren died of complications following a heart
25:52
Speaker 1: attack at the age of 79. He had a heart
25:54
Speaker 1: attack in March. He had complications following that, and he
25:57
Speaker 1: died in August of 2006 at the age of 79.
26:01
Speaker 1: Lorraine lived actually another 13 years. She didn't pass away
26:03
Speaker 1: until April of 2019, and she was 92 at the time.
26:08
Speaker 1: But even by this time, their reputations had started to
26:11
Speaker 1: see some cracks forming. And people, while they had been
26:14
Speaker 1: thrust even more powerfully into the limelight by the Amityville
26:18
Speaker 1: horror movies, and then again, even more by the Conjuring universe,
26:22
Speaker 1: which did start while Lorraine was still alive, their reputation
26:25
Speaker 1: had started to take some hits.
26:26
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, for instance, after Ed's death, a woman named
26:30
Speaker 2: Judith Penny came forward in 2014 and credibly alleged that
26:34
Speaker 2: Ed had started a relationship with her when he was
26:36
Speaker 2: driving city buses when she was just 15 years old
26:39
Speaker 2: and he was in his 30s. Their romantic relationship reportedly
26:42
Speaker 2: spanned four decades and was known to Lorraine. Judith even
26:45
Speaker 2: moved into their house for a while and reportedly Ed
26:48
Speaker 2: referred to Judith as the love of his life. Oof.
26:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, now there was some... parts of the story that
26:55
Speaker 1: said that she moved in essentially to help with the museum.
26:58
Speaker 1: And that was the only reason that she was there
26:59
Speaker 1: is to sort of be a caretaker in a way
27:02
Speaker 1: and help with their occult museum and sort of be
27:04
Speaker 1: in the house. But at least Judith's report is that
27:08
Speaker 1: there was this relationship. And to be fair to everyone
27:10
Speaker 1: involved here, I guess, there was not a lot of
27:13
Speaker 1: evidence that she provided that definitely solidified that all of
27:16
Speaker 1: her claims were accurate in the way that she told them.
27:19
Speaker 1: But Judith alleged that Ed was physically and emotionally abusive
27:23
Speaker 1: to her, particularly to Lorraine, actually. Also that Lorraine knew
27:28
Speaker 1: about the relationship. Now, of course, if this were true,
27:31
Speaker 1: this would make Ed a statutory rapist and pedophile.
27:35
Speaker 2: And.
27:36
Speaker 1: She further alleges Judith alleges that she got pregnant from
27:40
Speaker 1: Ed and was forced by Lorraine to either claim that
27:42
Speaker 1: she was raped or to get an abortion. And she
27:45
Speaker 1: apparently chose the latter. And this this is sort of
27:48
Speaker 1: a complicated story because there's different sides that people have
27:52
Speaker 1: claimed and not a lot of evidence in either direction. Right.
27:55
Speaker 2: So Judith further claimed that she helped Ed in some
27:58
Speaker 2: of their paranormal investigations, stating that she would help him
28:00
Speaker 2: stage photographs and even donned a white sheet to appear
28:03
Speaker 2: as a ghost on film.
28:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, in like a cemetery or something. But then when
28:09
Speaker 1: you watch the video, you don't even really see it.
28:10
Speaker 1: You don't see anything. Like it's so dark and so
28:13
Speaker 1: blurry that nothing even appears as if it were a ghost.
28:15
Speaker 1: So that part of her claim unclear, like maybe that's
28:18
Speaker 1: what they were trying to go for and it just
28:20
Speaker 1: didn't turn out or something. Now, Lorraine and her daughter, Judy,
28:23
Speaker 1: claim the allegations about the pregnancy and the abuse are false.
28:26
Speaker 1: They claim that Ed did nothing wrong. But Lorraine did
28:28
Speaker 1: admit that she knew of Ed's relationship with Judith. meaning
28:32
Speaker 1: that she corroborated at least part of Judith's claim. So
28:35
Speaker 1: it seems like there's some legitimacy that some part of
28:38
Speaker 1: their relationship was definitely true. As far as we can find,
28:41
Speaker 1: none of this has been adjudicated, but it does seem
28:44
Speaker 1: appropriate to believe the survivor in this case, Judith, and
28:47
Speaker 1: that I would take her word for a lot of this.
28:51
Speaker 1: There are people who raise suspicions that none of this
28:54
Speaker 1: came to pass until it seemed like there was potentially
28:56
Speaker 1: money on the line. That she could potentially make and
28:59
Speaker 1: that it only ever came up in the context of
29:01
Speaker 1: things where like she could potentially earn some money from
29:05
Speaker 1: her relationship with them. But as we said, like it
29:07
Speaker 1: does seem that at the very, very, very least, Ed
29:10
Speaker 1: did have a relationship with her because even Lorraine acknowledged
29:13
Speaker 1: that that part was true.
29:14
Speaker 2: Right, right, right. So now that we've got the kind
29:18
Speaker 2: of the general timeline of the Warrens in place, we
29:21
Speaker 2: should talk about some of the cases. So there were
29:24
Speaker 2: some famous cases for the Warrens, and these are cases
29:27
Speaker 2: that they reported they were supposedly consultants on and, you know,
29:30
Speaker 2: whatever this looks like. And we're going to talk about
29:32
Speaker 2: what we know to be true about these or what
29:34
Speaker 2: really happened in these scenarios. So we're going to present
29:36
Speaker 2: the case and we're going to be like, this is
29:37
Speaker 2: what really happened in this scenario.
29:39
Speaker 1: And a lot of these were turned into books and
29:41
Speaker 1: again later turned into movies. But the first major case
29:44
Speaker 1: was the story of Annabelle. And this is a Raggedy
29:47
Speaker 1: Ann doll believed to be possessed by the spirit of
29:50
Speaker 1: a girl named Annabelle Higgins. Allegedly, in the way that
29:54
Speaker 1: the story goes, the doll would say eerie things or
29:58
Speaker 1: make eerie sounds, even potentially as clear as saying the words,
30:02
Speaker 1: help me. Help me. Help me. Annabelle, is that you?
30:09
Speaker 2: Surprise! Oh, by the way, we have a guest on today.
30:11
Speaker 2: It's the best possessed doll, Annabelle.
30:14
Speaker 1: The roommates, because this doll belongs to a nurse, the
30:17
Speaker 1: roommate of the nurse, so they live together, claimed that
30:20
Speaker 1: the doll would sometimes move from place to place on
30:22
Speaker 1: its own, or maybe the owner of the doll claimed that,
30:25
Speaker 1: and then the roommate was the one moving, I don't know.
30:27
Speaker 1: Point being that the doll seems to move around or
30:30
Speaker 1: would be positioned in odd ways, and then And they
30:32
Speaker 1: decided that must mean that it was haunted or possessed.
30:36
Speaker 1: And even reportedly, the boyfriend of the doll's owner or
30:39
Speaker 1: the roommate, I forget which one, he reported that he
30:42
Speaker 1: woke up with a doll attempting to strangle him at
30:44
Speaker 1: one point during the night. Listen, okay.
30:48
Speaker 2: How embarrassing would that be? Like, how did you pass? Like,
30:52
Speaker 2: how did you get this injury while a doll strangled me? Okay.
30:54
Speaker 1: Yeah. While I was sleeping.
30:56
Speaker 2: While I was sleeping. Okay, let's have a conversation, right? So,
31:00
Speaker 2: the Warrens declared that the spirit was malevolent, blessed it,
31:04
Speaker 2: and removed the doll and took it into their possession. So,
31:06
Speaker 2: they locked it in a glass case, which historically we
31:09
Speaker 2: know keeps ghosts out.
31:11
Speaker 1: Right.
31:11
Speaker 2: And locked it in a glass case with a sign
31:13
Speaker 2: strictly prohibiting touching the doll for fear the spirit of
31:16
Speaker 2: Annabelle would pass into someone who touched it. So, it
31:20
Speaker 2: didn't pass into the boyfriend that was being strangled, but
31:22
Speaker 2: if you touched it, then you were going to get it.
31:24
Speaker 1: Right. And there's even some pictures I saw of people
31:28
Speaker 1: handling the doll with what looks like gigantic oven mitts
31:31
Speaker 1: that are supposed to be spiritually protective shields. Yeah.
31:37
Speaker 2: Ghost historical weaknesses. Glass and oven mitts.
31:40
Speaker 1: Yeah. And if you haven't seen a Raggedy Ann doll,
31:43
Speaker 1: it does not look like Annabelle in the movies. It's
31:46
Speaker 1: got like a– its face is like a white circle
31:49
Speaker 1: with black button eyes and like a smile. And like
31:53
Speaker 1: it doesn't even– it barely resembles a human. Like it
31:56
Speaker 1: doesn't– the one in the movie actually has like pronounced
31:58
Speaker 1: cheekbones and a chin. Like this is just a circle
32:01
Speaker 1: with eyes and a smiley face drawn onto it.
32:03
Speaker 2: Right.
32:03
Speaker 1: So it looks very much like a hand-sewn doll without
32:08
Speaker 1: a lot of artistry put into its design. So not
32:11
Speaker 1: nearly as creepy as what's depicted in the films, but
32:14
Speaker 1: that was that one. Now, although the doll Annabelle, the doll, sorry,
32:19
Speaker 1: the Raggedy Ann doll, it did really exist. There's nothing
32:22
Speaker 1: else actually to support anything about the story at all.
32:25
Speaker 1: Some have pointed out that the story of Annabelle in
32:29
Speaker 1: the Warren's telling of this and the movie that was
32:31
Speaker 1: made out of it, is actually remarkably similar to a
32:34
Speaker 1: Twilight Zone episode from seven years earlier.
32:36
Speaker 2: Of course it is.
32:37
Speaker 1: Which featured a sentient doll and a character named Annabelle.
32:41
Speaker 1: So they're like suspiciously aligned in that way. And then
32:46
Speaker 1: like so many other things, like I think I even
32:48
Speaker 1: heard that a lot of the claims that the doll
32:50
Speaker 1: moved in an attempt to strangle the boyfriend were maybe
32:52
Speaker 1: even later fabricated and made up to make the story
32:55
Speaker 1: more compelling. And I don't know why it was ever
32:58
Speaker 1: reported that it was potentially possessed, but that was the
33:02
Speaker 1: story told by the Warrens. Yeah.
33:05
Speaker 2: I feel like it's a far more real threat to
33:07
Speaker 2: be strangled by ads than a Raggedy Ann doll.
33:09
Speaker 1: This podcast is strangled by ads.
33:11
Speaker 2: It's strangled by ads. Here we are.
33:20
Speaker 1: All right, we're back. We've just been telling the story
33:22
Speaker 1: of Annabelle, one of the Warren's more famous cases. Also
33:26
Speaker 1: their first really big breakout case. It wasn't their first
33:29
Speaker 1: case ever, but it was one of their, it was
33:32
Speaker 1: like the one that put them on the map, if
33:33
Speaker 1: you will. Yeah.
33:34
Speaker 2: It's the one where when they went into the precinct, Dr.
33:37
Speaker 2: Spector was like, you really cracked this one kids. And
33:40
Speaker 2: then gave him a promotion, you know?
33:41
Speaker 1: Perfect.
33:42
Speaker 2: I do like the idea of a character named Captain
33:43
Speaker 2: Spector and he's a detective or captain of the Ghost
33:47
Speaker 2: Precinct and he's just a hard-nosed, no-nonsense ghost. Me too.
33:52
Speaker 1: The story writes itself.
33:54
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. All right. So arguably the most
33:57
Speaker 2: famous case, or at least the most famous during their lives,
34:00
Speaker 2: was the Amityville Horror. Briefly, just so you all know,
34:03
Speaker 2: a man named Ronald Defoe killed his parents and four
34:07
Speaker 2: siblings in their Amityville Horror. So Ronald Defoe killed his
34:11
Speaker 2: parents and four siblings in their Amityville house in November
34:15
Speaker 2: of 1974. He claimed he was told to kill his
34:18
Speaker 2: family by demonic voices that he heard. As a strategy
34:21
Speaker 2: to plead not guilty by reason of insanity.
34:23
Speaker 1: Exactly. So he's trying to get a lesser sentence by
34:26
Speaker 1: claiming that he had heard those voices. Now, that part
34:30
Speaker 1: actually wasn't where the Warrens come into play. It was
34:33
Speaker 1: a year later after his family, the situation with his family.
34:39
Speaker 1: that a family with George and Kathy Lutz, and I
34:42
Speaker 1: think they had a couple of kids, moved into this
34:44
Speaker 1: same house, acquiring it for a fairly steep discount. But
34:48
Speaker 1: this is a very expensive house. It's like right on
34:51
Speaker 1: the water. And so even with a steep discount, this
34:54
Speaker 1: was still a pretty expensive house and the discount was
34:56
Speaker 1: not steep enough. They fled the house after less than
34:59
Speaker 1: a month and And they claimed that it was infested
35:02
Speaker 1: with paranormal activity.
35:05
Speaker 2: So the Warrens were happy to investigate and determine that
35:08
Speaker 2: the haunting was caused by a powerful dark force placed
35:12
Speaker 2: upon the land by black magic cast long ago by
35:14
Speaker 2: the Native Americans of the area. So, you know, of course,
35:18
Speaker 2: we couldn't get through paranormal research and investigation without a
35:20
Speaker 2: little bit of racism.
35:22
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. It's the only the only way the only
35:24
Speaker 1: way through. And so that was essentially the claim. And
35:27
Speaker 1: they went there, they did this whole... So it was
35:30
Speaker 1: like the Lutzes left the house and then there was
35:34
Speaker 1: someone that they had commissioned to write a book about
35:38
Speaker 1: their story after they left the house, but before the
35:41
Speaker 1: book was published, the Warrens showed up and they do...
35:45
Speaker 1: All these seances and big rituals and all these things
35:48
Speaker 1: to try and figure out what was going on in
35:51
Speaker 1: the house and came to that conclusion that there was
35:54
Speaker 1: this dark, malevolent force that had been cast upon the land.
35:59
Speaker 2: Sure.
36:00
Speaker 1: It was later revealed that the Lutzes actually couldn't afford
36:03
Speaker 1: the house, and they fled to escape their financial woes
36:06
Speaker 1: and to make money selling the story rights. The culpable parties,
36:09
Speaker 1: except the Warrens, admitted that this was all a hoax
36:12
Speaker 1: to make money. They disclosed that they were even encouraged
36:15
Speaker 1: to embellish their story and help stage the aspects of
36:18
Speaker 1: the haunting with the aid of the Warrens in the storytelling.
36:22
Speaker 1: And they actually cooked up this scheme. They went to
36:25
Speaker 1: the defense lawyer for Ronald Defoe. the guy who had
36:31
Speaker 1: killed his family there before and said like, Hey, because
36:34
Speaker 1: like part of their ability to tell the story was
36:36
Speaker 1: predicated on the fact that those killings had happened there.
36:39
Speaker 1: So the inspired by the idea that he had claimed here,
36:42
Speaker 1: demonic voices, they said, let's capitalize on this and make
36:45
Speaker 1: a bunch of money. So they go to the lawyer.
36:47
Speaker 1: And say, like, let's write a book and, like, we'll
36:50
Speaker 1: tell this story and we'll make a bunch of money
36:52
Speaker 1: on this. And they couldn't agree on the terms of that.
36:54
Speaker 1: So they went to a different horror, like, ghost story
36:58
Speaker 1: writer and pitched it to him. And then that person
37:01
Speaker 1: worked with the Warrens and there was this whole thing
37:03
Speaker 1: about them coming up with– things to embellish and elaborate
37:09
Speaker 1: on the story yeah.
37:11
Speaker 2: And if you wanted to you can visit the amityville
37:14
Speaker 2: horror house like it is a it's still there it's
37:17
Speaker 2: in long island so if you ever want to i've
37:19
Speaker 2: been to amityville i have not been by the house
37:22
Speaker 2: we just went to a show there nice it was
37:24
Speaker 2: a lot of fun but uh it's a small quaint
37:26
Speaker 2: little area and when you see like the area you're
37:28
Speaker 2: like yeah yeah the amityville horror house is for sure
37:31
Speaker 2: here like it's scary So that kind of wraps up
37:34
Speaker 2: the Amityville story. Let's talk about the Enfield Poltergeist, because
37:38
Speaker 2: this is also an important story in the Warrens' development
37:43
Speaker 2: in Slash Grift. The Enfield Poltergeist was the subject of
37:46
Speaker 2: The Conjuring 2, in which a house in a North
37:49
Speaker 2: London suburb was reportedly haunted and possibly even possessed by
37:52
Speaker 2: a demon. In the story, the Warrens arrived to help
37:54
Speaker 2: the beleaguered family and successfully banished the demonic presence from
37:58
Speaker 2: their home.
37:59
Speaker 1: Now, in reality, witnesses reported that the haunting... such as
38:03
Speaker 1: it were, was entirely a hoax carried out by attention
38:07
Speaker 1: hungry children. There were like, I think four kids and
38:10
Speaker 1: a single mom who was trying to make ends meet
38:12
Speaker 1: in this house. They didn't have very much. They didn't
38:14
Speaker 1: have a lot going on and that the Warrens really
38:18
Speaker 1: weren't involved at all. They do have some pictures of
38:21
Speaker 1: kids levitating, which is very, very clear in the pictures
38:24
Speaker 1: that it's kids jumping off the bed. Like it looks
38:26
Speaker 1: like a picture of kids jumping off the bed, which
38:29
Speaker 1: is like certainly what they were doing. And like levitating
38:34
Speaker 1: is a very big stretch. Their feet were down. Their
38:36
Speaker 1: heads were up. They were clearly jumping and they were
38:38
Speaker 1: just jumping off of their beds. So they were not floating. Right.
38:41
Speaker 1: Any more than like if you take a picture of
38:43
Speaker 1: yourself jumping in the air that you are floating, which
38:45
Speaker 1: I guess maybe for two seconds you are in a way.
38:48
Speaker 1: But that was like what people who were actually close
38:51
Speaker 1: to this understood that the Warrens basically weren't involved.
38:54
Speaker 2: Right. And evidently, the Warrens contacted a local parapsychologist, which is,
38:59
Speaker 2: I hate saying that word, and told him that they could, quote,
39:03
Speaker 2: make a lot of money, end quote, from the haunting.
39:05
Speaker 2: And they showed up unsolicited, knocked on the door, and
39:08
Speaker 2: were told to go away. And they did. Yeah.
39:11
Speaker 1: They were there for less than a day. They didn't
39:13
Speaker 1: do anything. The family didn't know who they were. Obviously,
39:16
Speaker 1: they're like, this has been way blown out of proportion.
39:18
Speaker 1: Please go away. Yeah. But then, of course, the story
39:20
Speaker 1: depicts them as being very heavily involved, but they weren't. Right. Now,
39:25
Speaker 1: there were many credible sources that claim that the Warrens
39:27
Speaker 1: fabricated large amounts of their stories detailing their extramarital that
39:30
Speaker 1: they staged and performed theatrical stunts and events to sell
39:34
Speaker 1: the reality, the quote-unquote reality of their stories, and that
39:37
Speaker 1: they created parts of their stories out of whole cloth.
39:40
Speaker 1: There are some other ones we'll get into here in
39:41
Speaker 1: just a second that I think further depict how far
39:44
Speaker 1: they were willing to stoop to do this.
39:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, they showed up to events with hypotheses that supernatural
39:50
Speaker 2: events were happening and that they sought evidence to support
39:52
Speaker 2: their claims and hypothesis. So they had already decided that
39:56
Speaker 2: what was going on was supernatural and did not approach
39:58
Speaker 2: any situation with the idea that it might not be
40:00
Speaker 2: real or at least explainable through some parsimonious explanation. Although
40:06
Speaker 2: they do portray some skepticism in the films, not necessarily
40:10
Speaker 2: what they were doing in real life, it was said
40:11
Speaker 2: of Ed that he never encountered a house that wasn't haunted,
40:14
Speaker 2: according to him. So every house was haunted, which, you know,
40:18
Speaker 2: makes sense for somebody who was looking for hauntings.
40:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's definitely a lot of confirmation bias going on
40:25
Speaker 1: in what they were doing. And I think that's actually
40:27
Speaker 1: putting it fairly charitably. I think they were like hunting
40:30
Speaker 1: for phenomenon to make money on these events. So one
40:34
Speaker 1: more really quick story we'll tell about one of their cases.
40:36
Speaker 1: So this is a story of a guy named Arnie Johnson.
40:39
Speaker 1: This is in, I think, Brookfield, Connecticut. The story here
40:41
Speaker 1: is essentially, so Arnie stabbed someone to death and later
40:46
Speaker 1: claims that he had no memory of this and that
40:48
Speaker 1: he was possessed by a devil or some demonic force
40:51
Speaker 1: or something that made him do this thing. And the
40:56
Speaker 1: story then later evolves to that the warrants had helped
41:01
Speaker 1: perform an exorcism, that the younger brother of Arnie had
41:04
Speaker 1: been possessed, that the demon possessing him left the child
41:08
Speaker 1: and went into the guy who then, while possessed, stabbed
41:12
Speaker 1: someone to death, which just happened to be with a
41:14
Speaker 1: girl he wanted to be with. And then he married
41:17
Speaker 1: that girl. Anyway, that he then in prison or in court,
41:22
Speaker 1: the judge was like, I don't believe any of this
41:23
Speaker 1: nonsense about demon possessions. You're going to prison. And he
41:26
Speaker 1: then changed his story to a self-defense plea. Although that
41:30
Speaker 1: part was not in the movie. Then he got a
41:32
Speaker 1: lesser sentence for pleading guilty, but with a self-defense. He
41:37
Speaker 1: got out after five years and... Essentially, the people who
41:42
Speaker 1: were involved in this claimed he was never possessed. None
41:45
Speaker 1: of what they said happened. 99% of this was entirely fabricated.
41:50
Speaker 1: The only thing that was real was the murder. And
41:52
Speaker 1: all the things that they claimed about the family weren't true,
41:55
Speaker 1: that they said the family happened. What happened was the
41:59
Speaker 1: Warrens were working with this author who went to the
42:01
Speaker 1: family to get details to tell the story that was
42:04
Speaker 1: based on true events, horror story type of thing. They
42:08
Speaker 1: were telling them, they got asked, well, what about this?
42:11
Speaker 1: They said, that never happened. The story that they gave
42:13
Speaker 1: completely conflicted with the account that the Warrens gave. The
42:16
Speaker 1: guy went to him and said, what am I supposed
42:17
Speaker 1: to do with this? And the Warrens apparently said, that
42:20
Speaker 1: family is crazy. Just make it up. Write something scary.
42:24
Speaker 1: Scary stuff sells. Just make up whatever. And that was
42:28
Speaker 1: apparently they'd done the same thing with the Amityville horror
42:30
Speaker 1: case and that they specifically like this guy is saying like,
42:34
Speaker 1: this is what they told him to do. And that's
42:35
Speaker 1: more or less what happened is that he just filled,
42:38
Speaker 1: made it up, filled it in. And that the, the
42:40
Speaker 1: family contests this and says like, that was not legitimately
42:44
Speaker 1: what actually happened. Like it was complete nonsense, but they were,
42:46
Speaker 1: they went to them saying like, Hey, look, we can
42:48
Speaker 1: make a ton of money on this. To tell this story,
42:51
Speaker 1: you guys will be millionaires. Like, give us the rights
42:53
Speaker 1: to your story. Right. And then it got told through
42:56
Speaker 1: the Warrens' lens. And even the author who, like, was
42:59
Speaker 1: trying to actually maybe write a more legitimate story was
43:01
Speaker 1: sort of steamrolled by their money-making machine and forced to
43:04
Speaker 1: write this sort of nonsense that he did write.
43:07
Speaker 2: Yep. I mean, it's just... It's the grift. I mean,
43:11
Speaker 2: that's what it is. That's how, that's how it works.
43:13
Speaker 2: Like you have somebody who's like overly confident, pushy, but
43:16
Speaker 2: he just discredits anybody else who tells that, you know,
43:18
Speaker 2: who comes out and says that, Oh, what they're saying
43:20
Speaker 2: is that's what, that's him going like, Oh, that family's crazy.
43:23
Speaker 2: Don't listen to them do this. We'll make money and
43:25
Speaker 2: we'll scare people. And just, they're just leveraging that. They're
43:27
Speaker 2: using that for their advantage for their, for their own benefit.
43:30
Speaker 1: Yeah. And this story was the, essentially the subject for
43:34
Speaker 1: the conjuring movie, which was the conjuring the devil made
43:36
Speaker 1: me do it. Which, again, is depicted in a very
43:39
Speaker 1: different light in how all of the ways that that
43:41
Speaker 1: went down than the actual events themselves. So it definitely
43:45
Speaker 1: made it look like that was very legitimately the thing
43:47
Speaker 1: that took place.
43:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's kind of like when
43:50
Speaker 2: we come on the show and we say like, oh,
43:52
Speaker 2: we didn't choose to put ads in here. The devil
43:55
Speaker 2: made me do it.
44:03
Speaker 1: All right, so we've been sort of telling the story
44:05
Speaker 1: of the cases of the Warrens as well as the– well,
44:10
Speaker 1: lack of evidence. I think the actual reports of things
44:13
Speaker 1: that took place after these stories that made– that got
44:16
Speaker 1: very popular where what really happened came to light and
44:20
Speaker 1: it was really discovered that much if not everything they
44:23
Speaker 1: said was complete hokum. It was all made up. Yeah.
44:26
Speaker 1: So two people who are sort of famous in the
44:29
Speaker 1: skeptic movement, if you will, Stephen Novella and at the
44:33
Speaker 1: time Perry DeAngelis, although Perry has since passed away, of
44:36
Speaker 1: the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast, which, by the way,
44:39
Speaker 1: my favorite podcast, strong recommend. They approached the Warrens and
44:43
Speaker 1: they came to them very charitably and like as open
44:46
Speaker 1: minded as possible to say like, all right, look, you
44:49
Speaker 1: guys claim you believe this. You claim this is real.
44:53
Speaker 1: We would actually love to be convinced. Show us the
44:56
Speaker 1: best evidence you have of your experiences. Whatever the best
45:02
Speaker 1: you've got that is like the most concrete, ironclad stuff
45:07
Speaker 1: that shows off all the things that you claim, any
45:11
Speaker 1: of them, any one of them is real.
45:13
Speaker 2: Right. And so they took a tour of their occult
45:16
Speaker 2: artifacts and found no evidence of anything evil, no possessions,
45:20
Speaker 2: and their best evidence was blurry photographs with visual artifacts
45:23
Speaker 2: easily explained by professional photographers. So Steve Novella wrote, quote,
45:27
Speaker 2: they have a ton of fish stories about evidence that
45:30
Speaker 2: got away. They're not doing good scientific investigation. They have
45:34
Speaker 2: a predetermined conclusion, which they adhere to literally and religiously,
45:39
Speaker 2: end quote.
45:40
Speaker 1: So they make the point, too, that when they would say, oh,
45:43
Speaker 1: I had this great piece of evidence, but it was
45:45
Speaker 1: lost to whatever. It's like a very common sort of
45:48
Speaker 1: ghost hunter psychic trope is like, oh, I had it.
45:53
Speaker 1: It was right there in my grasp, whatever. Yeah. A
45:55
Speaker 1: very common thing to do is to set it up like, oh,
45:58
Speaker 1: I had the evidence. You just have to believe me.
46:00
Speaker 1: I had it. It's real.
46:01
Speaker 2: Anyway.
46:02
Speaker 1: They reported that the Warrens were very kind, but that
46:05
Speaker 1: they were nothing more than very good storytellers and salespeople.
46:08
Speaker 1: And that they used all the same tricks that grifters, hucksters,
46:11
Speaker 1: and magicians had been using for decades or even centuries
46:15
Speaker 1: to tell these kinds of stories. And so the best evidence,
46:20
Speaker 1: the best evidence they had was basically nothing. And it
46:24
Speaker 1: could be totally explained by easily manufactured and observable empirical phenomenon.
46:30
Speaker 2: Yeah.
46:31
Speaker 1: Yeah. And that's what their legacy sort of left.
46:33
Speaker 2: To be the most charitable possible, you could assume that
46:37
Speaker 2: maybe they did want to get into this to help people,
46:38
Speaker 2: that they wanted to relieve people suffering, that they wanted
46:40
Speaker 2: to try to explain something. They were genuinely curious. You
46:44
Speaker 2: could make some... Like there's a leap to get there,
46:48
Speaker 2: but I think that you could say that that's maybe
46:50
Speaker 2: part of some of the motivations, but like, I think
46:52
Speaker 2: the amount of money they made from their writings, the fame,
46:55
Speaker 2: the consultations, that those types of things, I just think
46:59
Speaker 2: undermine it so much. And just the credible resources that
47:01
Speaker 2: are coming in and saying like, no, they ask people
47:03
Speaker 2: to embellish. They ask people to exaggerate. They ask people
47:07
Speaker 2: to make up. I mean, a whole like whole cloth
47:10
Speaker 2: makeup stories, I think just tells you that their motivation
47:13
Speaker 2: was less about helping people more about making a quick buck.
47:16
Speaker 1: And there are people who are like, they're really interesting.
47:18
Speaker 1: They're paranormal investigators, but they're like skeptics. And they often
47:22
Speaker 1: go into these spaces with the goal to like try
47:25
Speaker 1: and find any evidence proving or disproving. And they always
47:28
Speaker 1: leave saying that like everything here could be easily explained
47:32
Speaker 1: and is easily explained by things like observed. So like
47:34
Speaker 1: show evidence. These sounds you heard, that's creaking of old wood.
47:36
Speaker 1: This happens when the wind comes through here. This is
47:38
Speaker 1: just a design of this particular house. And this was
47:41
Speaker 1: a thing that was like, there was one story about
47:43
Speaker 1: a mom who like legitimately was actually feeding these sleep
47:47
Speaker 1: aids to her kids. And that one of the stories
47:50
Speaker 1: that they told this kid was sort of reported as hallucinations,
47:52
Speaker 1: which is actually a well understood phenomenon of those sleep
47:56
Speaker 1: aids in particular. And particularly if you have trouble actually
47:59
Speaker 1: going to sleep, then you end up hallucinating and, on
48:01
Speaker 1: this stuff. This was back in the 70s or 80s
48:04
Speaker 1: when that was not as well understood or regulated, and
48:07
Speaker 1: there was often this whole supplement market where things you
48:11
Speaker 1: could buy any... I mean, it still exists. That hasn't changed.
48:13
Speaker 2: Right, right.
48:14
Speaker 1: But you could buy these doses of things that might
48:16
Speaker 1: have these effects, but aren't being overseen by any kind
48:19
Speaker 1: of regulatory body, thanks in large part to the conservatives
48:22
Speaker 1: who blocked any kind of legislation that would have made
48:25
Speaker 1: regulatory body to govern those types of things. Right.
48:27
Speaker 2: Right.
48:27
Speaker 1: But anyway, so like there's all these sorts of things
48:30
Speaker 1: where every time they went into these spaces, everything could
48:32
Speaker 1: be easily explained. And I mean, not even they had
48:36
Speaker 1: like easily explained. They didn't have to work that hard
48:38
Speaker 1: to be able to explain it.
48:40
Speaker 2: Right.
48:40
Speaker 1: All the things that were claimed. And there was never
48:42
Speaker 1: any visual evidence of things that weren't photographs. There weren't pictures.
48:45
Speaker 1: Every time that there were, there was like a reasonable explanation.
48:48
Speaker 1: There's one where they had this picture with like someone
48:51
Speaker 1: who had the, like what looked like glowing eyes who
48:53
Speaker 1: is peeking around a corner. And they're like, Actually, there's
48:56
Speaker 1: a very common thing that happens with flash photography, particularly
48:59
Speaker 1: back in the 80s, is it would make it look
49:01
Speaker 1: like your eyes glowed. You can even still get that
49:02
Speaker 1: effect even with iPhones a little bit still. So, like,
49:05
Speaker 1: if the lighting is right. And back then, it was
49:08
Speaker 1: actually kind of difficult to not get people to have
49:10
Speaker 1: the red eye. There was a whole thing about, like,
49:12
Speaker 1: removing red eyes in film and digital things, like, in
49:15
Speaker 1: the 80s and 90s and preventing it. And on top
49:18
Speaker 1: of that, then you could identify. that the person in
49:20
Speaker 1: the picture was one of the crew who was like
49:22
Speaker 1: part of the whole seance that they were there. So
49:25
Speaker 1: every time they had evidence, it was a big bowl
49:27
Speaker 1: of nothing burger.
49:29
Speaker 2: Right. Exactly.
49:29
Speaker 1: Every time. Every time. Anyway, that's all we have to
49:33
Speaker 1: say about the Warrens. If you'd like to tell us
49:35
Speaker 1: your thoughts or elaborate or share some stories about things
49:38
Speaker 1: that we missed, you can email us directly at info
49:40
Speaker 1: at WWD, WWD podcast.com or reach us on the social
49:44
Speaker 1: media platforms. And we do look forward to hearing from
49:46
Speaker 1: you there. We, at the end of our discussions, that
49:50
Speaker 1: was intervening prepositional phrase, by the way. We like to
49:55
Speaker 1: recommend some things. They're usually unrelated to our topic at hand.
50:00
Speaker 1: And that's mostly the case here. And that is, I think,
50:02
Speaker 1: a very fun thing to stick around for. But first,
50:05
Speaker 1: we have some credits to get through really quick. Before
50:07
Speaker 1: I do that, is there anything I'm missing or you'd
50:08
Speaker 1: like to add to say about the Warrens before we
50:11
Speaker 1: head toward closing this episode up? Nope.
50:13
Speaker 2: I think we covered it.
50:15
Speaker 1: All right, perfect. If you'd like to support us, you
50:16
Speaker 1: can leave us a rating and a review on whatever
50:18
Speaker 1: you listen to this. Give us a nice five stars.
50:20
Speaker 1: Makes you feel good, and it helps us be a podcast.
50:22
Speaker 1: You can also tell a friend, make them subscribe, et cetera.
50:25
Speaker 1: If you'd like to support us financially, you can do
50:27
Speaker 1: that by heading over to Patreon. There you'll get some
50:29
Speaker 1: early episodes, some ad-free episodes, and some other things. And
50:32
Speaker 1: you help us be a podcast, which we do very
50:34
Speaker 1: much appreciate. And at the end of our full-length discussions,
50:36
Speaker 1: I will shout out the name of people who help
50:38
Speaker 1: us by being generous, wonderful, amazing, awesome supporters and have
50:42
Speaker 1: been for some time. So a giant shout out and
50:45
Speaker 1: thank you to Mike M., Megan, Mike T., Justin, Kim, Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Kiara,
50:50
Speaker 1: and Charlie for all of your support in helping us
50:53
Speaker 1: do our thing for as long as you've been doing this.
50:56
Speaker 2: You all are always the best forever and ever and ever.
50:59
Speaker 1: Amen. Indeed. Thank you so much to my team of
51:03
Speaker 1: people writing and fact-checking. From Shane to myself, thank you
51:06
Speaker 1: for recording with me today, Shane.
51:08
Speaker 2: Hey, thank you for having me.
51:09
Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson, and our audio engineer,
51:12
Speaker 1: technical king, emperor, penguin, guru, audio sound guy, producer is Justin,
51:17
Speaker 1: who is the best.
51:18
Speaker 2: He's always been the best, too. That's the thing. He's
51:21
Speaker 2: always been the best, and he always will be the best.
51:23
Speaker 1: That is right. Never to be outdone or having ever
51:26
Speaker 1: been outdone.
51:27
Speaker 2: Justin is the best. That's him. All right.
51:30
Speaker 1: I think that's what we have to say before we
51:32
Speaker 1: recommend some things. Ready to transition?
51:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it. I'm going to recommend a band,
51:46
Speaker 2: and I'm recommending this band for a couple different reasons. One,
51:50
Speaker 2: it's spooky season, and I think that this band fits
51:53
Speaker 2: in line with spooky season. Two, this band is a
51:56
Speaker 2: concept project that is about the video game Bloodborne. Which
52:01
Speaker 2: in itself is spooky and scary. Three, this is my
52:04
Speaker 2: best friend's band, and he wrote all this by himself.
52:06
Speaker 2: And four, it's influenced by The Misfits. So it falls
52:10
Speaker 2: into horror punk as well.
52:12
Speaker 1: Wow.
52:12
Speaker 2: So this band is called Pale Blood. It's my buddy Mikey,
52:15
Speaker 2: and he has put out a full-length record called Yharnam Sunrise,
52:18
Speaker 2: and then a three-song EP called Childhood's Beginning. And it's
52:22
Speaker 2: straight up, if you like Art of Drowning, AFI... All
52:26
Speaker 2: Hallows EP AFI old misfits like that. Just kind of
52:30
Speaker 2: like really catchy, easy to sing along. It's it's going
52:34
Speaker 2: to be in your wheelhouse. The difference is that every
52:37
Speaker 2: song is about some part of the lore of Bloodborne,
52:40
Speaker 2: the video game. So like it's a very specific project,
52:44
Speaker 2: but it's so good. And my buddies are such a
52:46
Speaker 2: great songwriter that I wish more people listen to it.
52:48
Speaker 2: So so that's my recommendations. Pale Blood with one word.
52:51
Speaker 2: It's one word. Pale Blood is one word. And the
52:53
Speaker 2: full lengths are Yharnam Sunrise and the EP is called
52:56
Speaker 2: Childhood's Beginning.
52:57
Speaker 1: That is a remarkably specific Venn diagram of topics that
53:03
Speaker 1: you will find nowhere else. Yes. But cool.
53:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good. It's good stuff.
53:09
Speaker 1: I'm recommending a tabletop game. It is called Ghosts Love
53:12
Speaker 1: Candy 2. T-O-O. It seems like it's designed to be
53:16
Speaker 1: a kid's game, and I think it would work really
53:17
Speaker 1: well for that. But it's actually a pretty well-designed game.
53:20
Speaker 1: This is from publisher 25th Century Games. Essentially, the way
53:23
Speaker 1: that this works is you have a deck of cards
53:25
Speaker 1: that are kids that are trick-or-treaters, that are dressed up
53:28
Speaker 1: as certain characters and whatnot. And then every player is
53:31
Speaker 1: playing basically as a ghost who is haunting these kids.
53:34
Speaker 1: You have cards numbered one through nine in your hand,
53:37
Speaker 1: and then you play those cards to sort of bid on,
53:39
Speaker 1: if you will, haunting the kid's And then when you
53:42
Speaker 1: haunt the kids, you steal their candy, and the candy
53:45
Speaker 1: is what's worth points. If you scare– if you haunt
53:48
Speaker 1: them so much that you meet or exceed their courage value,
53:53
Speaker 1: then you also will claim that kid into sort of
53:56
Speaker 1: your cards you've collected, and that can be worth points.
53:58
Speaker 1: at the end of the game it's a fairly simple
54:01
Speaker 1: little game but it's also Halloween themed so if you're
54:04
Speaker 1: looking for a sort of spooky Halloween themed game that's
54:06
Speaker 1: like very light and easy and very cute like the
54:10
Speaker 1: art on it is adorable then you could do worse
54:13
Speaker 1: than this so this is a pretty fun little game
54:15
Speaker 1: called Ghosts Love Candy 2 that I'm recommending I love
54:19
Speaker 1: it I love it And then Shane's Pale Blood is
54:23
Speaker 1: the band. Childhood's Beginning is the EP. And Yharnam Sunrise
54:26
Speaker 1: is the full length. But I think we're out of
54:29
Speaker 1: time here. So let's go ahead and close this one up.
54:31
Speaker 1: Anything that I missed or you'd like to add before
54:33
Speaker 1: we say our goodbyes?
54:35
Speaker 2: Nothing today.
54:36
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for listening. This is Abraham.
54:39
Speaker 2: And this is Shane.
54:40
Speaker 1: We're out.
54:41
Speaker 2: See ya.
54:42
Speaker 1: You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
54:44
Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
54:47
Speaker 2: going to www.wwdpodcast.com. Thanks for listening, and we hope you
54:53
Speaker 2: have an awesome day.