Latest / Substack Writers Salon / Mastering the Substack game with Derek Huges

Transcript

Mastering the Substack game with Derek Huges · Substack Writers Salon

0:00
SPEAKER_02: And we are live.
0:01
SPEAKER_02: Hello, hello everyone to another Substack Live.
0:04
SPEAKER_02: I have with me today Derek Hughes, right?
0:09
SPEAKER_02: I hope I pronounced this right.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: Derek has a tagline, which is the irresistible writer.
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SPEAKER_02: He went from zero to 30,000 followers in just two years with zero writing
0:23
SPEAKER_02: experience and no clue what he was doing.
0:26
SPEAKER_02: Now he helps others to do the same.
0:29
So Derek,
0:29
thank you so much for joining me today and for accepting my
0:32
invitation to go live.
0:35
SPEAKER_02: I am excited to talk to you and know about your secret sauce.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: And hopefully you can share some of your magic with us.
0:45
So Derek,
0:45
can you tell us a bit about your background and why did you
0:50
decide to Substack?
0:52
SPEAKER_02: And of course, the big question is, how did you do it?
0:57
SPEAKER_02: So the floor is yours, Derek.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean, for me, it all started like in 2023.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: So I had like no background in writing or business.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: I've never worked for a business.
1:10
I've only tended to work for charities and public sector like
1:15
organizations.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: And
1:16
SPEAKER_00: I'd moved into a job that wasn't as challenging.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: And so I had a bit of space in my head to do something different.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: And I decided to start writing.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: And not really because I liked writing,
1:30
SPEAKER_00: but because I wanted to kind of share what I was thinking,
1:33
SPEAKER_00: what I was learning,
1:34
SPEAKER_00: because I liked reading and stuff.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: And so I started 2023 on Medium.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Because I heard about Medium from Nicholas Cole.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: I'd never heard of it before,
1:42
but I'd found that I'd started writing on Medium and was just
1:46
sharing whatever was
1:47
SPEAKER_00: in my head.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: I've got lots of interests and lots of experience and lots of things.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: I was just kind of sharing lots of different stuff.
1:55
And then so for about four months,
1:57
maybe like nobody was reading it or interested.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: And so the novelty of writing a line,
2:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
2:04
it was very exciting at the start because it's like you could
2:05
write a line like
2:06
SPEAKER_00: anyone could read it.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: But then you quickly learn like nobody was reading it.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: And probably after three, four months, I'd stopped.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: The novelty of just writing was wearing off.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: And then I was like, it would be really good if somebody read my stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, how do you get people to read your stuff?
2:24
SPEAKER_00: And I'm really curious.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: I like to learn.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: I like to apply ideas.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: I like to get new skills.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: And so I started like just exploring that really.
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SPEAKER_00: How do you get someone to click on your stuff?
2:35
SPEAKER_00: How do you get them to read it?
2:36
SPEAKER_00: How do you get them to comment it?
2:38
SPEAKER_00: How do you get people to kind of be impacted by what you're doing?
2:41
And so at that point,
2:44
I just started like reading and learning and experimenting.
2:47
Every time I learned a new idea,
2:48
I just experimented with my writing because nobody was reading.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: So it didn't really matter at that point.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: And then gradually,
2:56
SPEAKER_00: into my content,
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I just started sharing the things I was learning about writing
3:00
alongside everything
3:01
SPEAKER_00: else.
3:02
And I noticed that whenever I shared the stuff I was learning
3:05
and applying about
3:06
SPEAKER_00: writing,
3:07
SPEAKER_00: there was a little spike in my interests.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: And so I just started to kind of do more and more of that.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: And then probably after like six or seven months,
3:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
3:16
SPEAKER_00: I was learning about the whole niche thing and your focus.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, actually...
3:20
Rather than writing about whatever's in my head and everything
3:23
I was learning,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm maybe just going to start sharing what I'm learning about writing.
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And so I started to get slightly more focused kind of June,
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July time of that first year.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: And a couple of months later on Medium,
3:37
SPEAKER_00: as I was at that point,
3:38
there was just like a massive spike in interest and started
3:42
getting thousands of
3:42
SPEAKER_00: followers kind of every month.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: And then in terms of Substack,
3:47
SPEAKER_00: I started to meet friends online,
3:50
SPEAKER_00: and then a lot of them last year were telling me,
3:53
SPEAKER_00: oh,
3:53
SPEAKER_00: we're all on Substack.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: Substack's the place to be.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: And I don't like jumping around platforms.
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SPEAKER_00: I've tried lots of different things, but I was sticking to Medium.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: And eventually,
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SPEAKER_00: I was like,
4:04
SPEAKER_00: to shut them all up,
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SPEAKER_00: I started writing on this back about 12 months ago.
4:08
And probably for the first six months was not really focused on
4:12
it particularly.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: And then I kind of to see how it was different and the culture.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: And probably the last six months I've tried to think,
4:20
SPEAKER_00: well,
4:20
what's particular about this platform and the generic writing
4:24
skills I've built?
4:25
SPEAKER_00: Plus like creating products and all that sort of stuff.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: We can talk about that if you want.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: I started to focus that on Substack.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: And then, yeah, my growth of Substack has started to...
4:36
SPEAKER_00: grow quite a lot over the last six months.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: I got about 830,
4:42
SPEAKER_00: 820 followers not subscribed was last month on Substack,
4:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
4:45
SPEAKER_00: so it's kind of a nice growth curve that's going up and up,
4:49
SPEAKER_00: really.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: So that's like,
4:51
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
4:51
that's like the whistle-stop tour of the last kind of two years
4:55
and how I've got to
4:56
SPEAKER_00: where I am.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: And I've worked full-time most of that time.
5:00
I was just doing it on the morning before work and then
5:03
gradually earned more and more money.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: And I was like,
5:06
SPEAKER_00: Why am I working a job when I'm earning money writing?
5:10
SPEAKER_00: And so there's parts of my job I still like.
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SPEAKER_00: So I've just gradually worked less and less hours in my main job.
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SPEAKER_00: So I just worked maybe a couple of days a week on that now.
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Basically,
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I had a conversation with my boss where I said,
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I like this bit and this bit.
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SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to do that.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: Don't want to do that.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: And so I got rid of the stuff I don't like.
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SPEAKER_00: And I just do the stuff I like now in my main job.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: And it gives me more space for writing and helping other writers, really.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: Oh wow, what a nice boss.
5:36
All right,
5:36
so you told us a lot of things and I am gonna like dissect
5:41
everyone.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: So I think,
5:44
so you said you moved from Medium to Substack and you took some
5:47
time to figure
5:49
SPEAKER_02: things out.
5:50
What is so special about Substack that makes it stand out from
5:56
other platforms
5:57
SPEAKER_02: like,
5:57
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
5:58
SPEAKER_02: Medium or Twitter X or whatever,
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SPEAKER_02: Facebook or LinkedIn?
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What is the unique feature that makes Substack stand out when
6:10
compared to other platforms?
6:13
Yeah,
6:13
so if I say the negative thing first,
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and then I'll move to the positive.
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SPEAKER_00: So the negative thing that everybody says,
6:19
SPEAKER_00: certainly the people I help,
6:20
SPEAKER_00: is it's so complicated that you come on and you're just like,
6:24
what's a profile and a publication and what's a chat and a note
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and a post?
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And people get baffled and confused,
6:30
whereas all the other platforms,
6:32
you just post.
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you know whatever it might be etc um but once you work that
6:38
once you get over the
6:39
confusion and work out how it works for me it's got this kind
6:42
of built-in ability
6:44
to help you grow and it all links together you know your posts
6:48
links to your notes
6:49
which links to your chat which links to like substack live and
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there's lots of
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SPEAKER_00: features that mean that it wants to support you to grow um
6:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
6:58
SPEAKER_00: I remember when I was first on Twitter,
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SPEAKER_00: I was trying on Twitter in the early days,
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SPEAKER_00: and I had a newsletter on Kit,
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SPEAKER_00: but,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: Twitter doesn't want you to share links to something else,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: so you've got to,
7:08
SPEAKER_00: like,
7:09
SPEAKER_00: do clever ways around it,
7:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: because one platform's fighting against another,
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SPEAKER_00: and it's all,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
7:14
SPEAKER_00: complicated,
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SPEAKER_00: whereas with a sub stack,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: they're
7:17
SPEAKER_00: They want you to do lives and to do notes and to do posts.
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SPEAKER_00: And so it's got this kind of lovely opportunity of things connecting.
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SPEAKER_00: If you want to send DMs, you can.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: You can't send DMs on Medium.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: If you want to send a message on chat just to your subscribers,
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SPEAKER_00: it's got all these kind of features that you have a look at.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, you don't have to use them all.
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SPEAKER_00: You look at them and decide,
7:39
SPEAKER_00: right,
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which ones work or what am I trying to achieve with my writers
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and my readers,
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SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
7:46
SPEAKER_00: you know.
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SPEAKER_00: So often when I do something like this,
7:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: I'll get maybe a couple of questions where people have just DM'd me,
7:53
SPEAKER_00: they've just messaged me.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: And Substack kind of allows that,
7:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: where other platforms,
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they're quite narrow and they resist you going kind of onto
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other platforms
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SPEAKER_00: So for me, it's like how they all work together.
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And once you've worked it out,
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it's hard in the first place because it's very complicated.
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SPEAKER_00: But once you work out and get a little nice system,
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SPEAKER_00: it's got like this inbuilt kind of growth system almost,
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SPEAKER_00: which I think is really lovely because you can share your content,
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SPEAKER_00: your deep thought through posts,
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SPEAKER_00: but then Substack will help you grow.
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find people for that rather than just like a blog site and it
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just sits there and
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SPEAKER_00: you just open for Google to send somebody there.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think that's the biggest beauty of Google.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: So looking at your profile, you have 4.4 subscribers.
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SPEAKER_02: How many of them are paid subscribers?
8:49
SPEAKER_00: So I just hit 100 paid subscribers yesterday.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
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And probably for six months,
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I had no interest in paid subscribers,
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really.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't something about it.
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SPEAKER_00: It's not really a main thing of mine.
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SPEAKER_00: I make money really through digital products and live cohorts and stuff.
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But I've been experimenting a little bit with paid subscribers
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and how you do that.
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SPEAKER_00: But, yeah, I think paid subscribers is a kind of interesting thing
9:24
Two,
9:25
on Substack,
9:26
I think that it's a bit misleading where some people get
9:29
focused on it.
9:30
I think there's other opportunities that are better if you want
9:32
to kind of make
9:33
SPEAKER_00: money,
9:33
SPEAKER_00: but it is quite easy because you just click it on,
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SPEAKER_00: don't you?
9:37
But yeah,
9:37
I've tried lots of things probably over the last six months to
9:40
kind of work out
9:42
What's the paid subscription thing about on Substack and what
9:45
works and what
9:45
doesn't and how can you use it in a way that you're making
9:49
money that's good for
9:50
SPEAKER_00: your time?
9:50
SPEAKER_00: Because if people are just paying a small amount and some people,
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you can't give away masses of resources for that because
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otherwise you're not
9:58
SPEAKER_00: really making money for your time.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: So I think there's a lot of thoughts to be done around that.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: Where I've landed with it is that
10:08
SPEAKER_00: My free content is helpful information for people.
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SPEAKER_00: They'll get loads of tips, probably two a week.
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SPEAKER_00: I'll send posts out with lots of tips and advice and that sort of stuff.
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And then what I do for my page subs once a week on a Monday,
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they'll get a tool.
10:21
They'll get something very useful,
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practical that's working for me right now.
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SPEAKER_00: And I'll give them templates.
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I'll say,
10:26
right,
10:27
you can use this for your headlines or your notes or your...
10:31
an AI prompt or an outline I mean I give a different one each
10:35
week I just look at
10:35
what's worked really well for me in the last couple of months
10:38
and I turn it into a
10:39
tool and give it to my paid subscribers so they just take that
10:43
and use it so my
10:45
free subscribers get like the information and the content and
10:48
the tips and then my
10:48
paid subs will get a practical tool they can go and use as it
10:52
were so that's kind
10:53
SPEAKER_00: of
10:53
SPEAKER_00: where I've landed at the moment in terms of how I separate the two.
10:57
And probably most of my paid subs have come in the last two
11:01
months,
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I think.
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SPEAKER_02: I mean,
11:03
I like how you frame the Substack experience is by selling
11:09
digital products and the
11:11
focus on that rather on the paid subscribers because other
11:16
creators kind of push
11:18
SPEAKER_02: the paid subscriber path while you have kind of a different approach.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: So for me,
11:23
what are the digital products that you're selling and what
11:27
platform are you using
11:28
SPEAKER_02: to sell them and promote them?
11:32
SPEAKER_00: Yes, so where I host all my products is on Thrivecart.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that's where I host my digital products.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: Okay, on Thrivecart, yeah.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
11:44
So that's why I tossed them because it's much deeper than all
11:47
the other options,
11:47
really.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: That's why I went down that route, as it were.
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SPEAKER_00: And I tend to create a new one every couple of months.
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I mean,
11:54
I've got a live cohort starting on Monday called the Subject
11:59
Growth Map.
12:00
So that's going to be six sessions over six weeks where we will
12:03
meet on Zoom and
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SPEAKER_00: I'll talk them through the system that I've used to gain,
12:07
SPEAKER_00: like,
12:07
whatever four and a half thousand subscribers uh and then
12:11
alongside that they can
12:12
buy an extra product which is the digital um what i called it
12:17
the complete substack
12:18
toolkit you know so to give them loads of tools etc and um so
12:22
yes i'm always like
12:23
creating resources and tools and i get too many ideas that's
12:27
the problem and i'm
12:29
experimenting with stuff all the time and then i'll learn stuff
12:32
and i think right
12:32
SPEAKER_00: this is really useful i'll turn that into a product and help people
12:36
so yeah i've got like all sorts of stuff that's kind of uh
12:40
creating and offering to
12:41
people what is your most selling product what's the most
12:46
popular one yeah so the
12:49
the the one that was most popular so i launched that last
12:52
summer i think it was and
12:53
SPEAKER_00: it was called my resource bank and um
12:58
all my other products I took lots of strategy and consultation
13:01
and thinking about
13:02
and my resource pack was the one I put like least effort into
13:06
thinking about and
13:07
it's been my most successful and I was sat in the garden one
13:09
day and I was like I
13:12
had just this thought popped into my head that I had like all
13:14
these templates and I
13:15
had all these tools that I was using for my writing that I
13:18
developed over the last
13:19
year you know to help me write introductions to help me get
13:22
ideas to help me
13:23
SPEAKER_00: outline a
13:24
SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, there's all sorts of things.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: And they're all on my computer that I was using.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: And I sat in my garden.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: It was a really nice sunny day.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, I wonder, like, if anybody would want them.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: You know, they're on my computer.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: I wonder if anybody would want them.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: And I was like,
13:38
SPEAKER_00: I would want them.
13:39
If I was a new writer,
13:40
I would want that because they made it faster and if someone's
13:42
used it.
13:43
And then I was just like,
13:44
you know what,
13:44
I might see if anybody wants them.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, that's my resource bank.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: And I just,
13:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:48
SPEAKER_00: put it all into a database on Thrivecart and then said,
13:52
SPEAKER_00: does anybody want it?
13:53
SPEAKER_00: And like, yeah, every month people buy that, you know.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: And that was a big learning point for me, really.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: Because it was like, actually, people don't...
14:01
SPEAKER_00: always want lots of more fancy tips.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: They want something they can use,
14:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:05
SPEAKER_00: and if you've kind of,
14:06
so I've written like 600 articles in the last couple of years
14:09
on Medium and
14:10
SPEAKER_00: Substack,
14:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:11
SPEAKER_00: like a thousand word articles.
14:13
And from that,
14:14
I've like learned lots and had to learn how to do all sorts of
14:17
things.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: And so it's like,
14:19
SPEAKER_00: actually,
14:19
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
14:19
SPEAKER_00: people who are only done 10,
14:21
they wouldn't mind shortcutting the learning and just get your
14:23
headline templates
14:24
SPEAKER_00: or your posts or your hooks or whatever.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: And so that was a big learning point for me that actually people,
14:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
14:30
SPEAKER_00: anything that you've learned and you're using,
14:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:33
SPEAKER_00: for people watching this,
14:35
SPEAKER_00: whatever their thing is,
14:36
SPEAKER_00: if it's to lose weight or exercise or conquer anxiety,
14:39
and if they've got little tools and frameworks and things that
14:42
they've used to
14:42
SPEAKER_00: solve their problem,
14:44
SPEAKER_00: actually,
14:44
SPEAKER_00: people would buy that off you.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
14:47
Because you've just naturally,
14:48
but you aren't always aware of what you've developed.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: They're just little functional things.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: And so that was like a massive learning point for me to think,
14:55
SPEAKER_00: actually,
14:56
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
14:56
SPEAKER_00: we've all got treasures that we're using to solve problems for our child.
15:00
And other people with that problem would love that the four Ps
15:04
or the little
15:04
SPEAKER_00: checklist you use or the journal prompts or the whatever they might be,
15:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:08
SPEAKER_00: people would just pay for them because they've solved your problem.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: So that was like a big learning point.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: And I guess
15:15
SPEAKER_00: My sub-staff paid to you,
15:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:18
that kind of when I was struggling to know what to do with that
15:21
and what I was
15:21
SPEAKER_00: doing wasn't working.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: And then I remembered the resource bank and I was like,
15:24
SPEAKER_00: actually,
15:25
SPEAKER_00: people just want what works and they're busy.
15:28
They've got stuff on and they just want something in their hand
15:30
that they can use
15:30
SPEAKER_00: today to create a hook or a headline or whatever.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: And so that was a big, big learning point for me.
15:36
SPEAKER_02: Hmm, that's very interesting.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: Can you give us a sneak peek of the tools that you're using,
15:43
SPEAKER_02: like one or two tools that you recommend?
15:48
Do you mean like that I send to my page subs and what's in like
15:51
the resource bank
15:52
SPEAKER_00: and stuff like that?
15:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the resource bank, like maybe one or two tools.
15:57
SPEAKER_02: So just a sneak peek.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: We don't have to ruin the plot.
16:05
I mean,
16:05
one of the things would be like 15 of the templates I use for
16:09
headlines.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: I'd have 15 templates.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: So when I'm creating a new headline,
16:14
I'll look at my templates rather than like thinking from
16:17
scratch or I'd paste those
16:19
SPEAKER_00: templates into chat GPT sometimes.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: And then I would be like thinking about how do you,
16:26
SPEAKER_00: what's the first sentence of your course that's going to grab attention?
16:29
SPEAKER_00: Because one of the things I learned on Medium,
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Medium has this stack called the read ratio,
16:34
SPEAKER_00: which is all about people click on your stuff,
16:36
SPEAKER_00: but how many read it all the way through.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: So Medium tells you.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: And from Medium,
16:41
SPEAKER_00: you realize that sometimes like half the people don't get past your first
16:44
SPEAKER_00: paragraph.
16:46
And you've got to have like your first sentence which just
16:49
grabs their attention,
16:50
you know.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: So then I was like, well, what would a first sentence look like?
16:54
And then I came up with like five different ways of writing the
16:56
first sentence,
16:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:57
SPEAKER_00: like a question,
16:58
SPEAKER_00: a stat,
16:59
SPEAKER_00: a strong statement,
17:01
SPEAKER_00: etc.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: And I would write those down and explain them, you know.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: So whenever I'm writing the first sentence,
17:06
SPEAKER_00: I'd look at my list and think,
17:07
SPEAKER_00: wait,
17:07
SPEAKER_00: which one should I do as kind of prompt rather than just be like,
17:11
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: It needs to be good for a sentence.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: What might it be?
17:14
So just stuff like that would just shortcut the process because
17:17
you just look at
17:17
SPEAKER_00: your list and you're like,
17:18
SPEAKER_00: oh,
17:19
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
17:19
SPEAKER_00: I need a good question.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: This is what I'm going to ask.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: Or I need a strong controversial statement.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: And then you think of one.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: So there'd be all things like that that I would have learned.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: How do you tell a story?
17:31
SPEAKER_00: When I used to tell stories at the beginning,
17:33
SPEAKER_00: they were really long and awfully,
17:34
and I realized I could tell from the medium stats that people
17:37
were not reading
17:38
SPEAKER_00: them.
17:38
So I was like,
17:39
right,
17:40
stories are important,
17:41
but how do you tell them very crisp?
17:43
very focused so people are really engaged with it but they stay
17:47
with you you know
17:48
and so I got a little checklist of like actually that's how you
17:50
write a story in a
17:52
written context where you want it to be short so whenever that
17:55
come up I just pull
17:56
out my checklist and think right I need to do this this this
17:59
and so I would just
18:00
have loads of things like that lying around and thought
18:04
actually I should probably
18:04
SPEAKER_00: pump together for other people
18:06
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
18:08
Is your ultimate goal is to go full-time on Substack and kind
18:13
of maybe stop doing
18:15
other jobs and just go full-time and actually make a living
18:20
from writing on
18:20
SPEAKER_02: Substack?
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, it was interesting.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: So January this year,
18:25
SPEAKER_00: so since I started writing and not made any the first few months,
18:29
then gradually my income would go up every month and I would
18:33
launch products and
18:34
SPEAKER_00: coach people.
18:35
And I would be in disbelief all the time that I would even make
18:38
money writing and
18:39
SPEAKER_00: it'd get bigger and bigger.
18:40
And then January this year,
18:41
I hit like about,
18:43
I think something like over $8,000.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: I made that month.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: In one month?
18:49
SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, in a month.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: And then I was like,
18:53
SPEAKER_00: right, this is like proper money now, isn't it?
18:55
SPEAKER_00: And I'd start to get the point of actually,
18:57
SPEAKER_00: this is real,
18:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:58
SPEAKER_00: it's not just a flutely month,
18:59
SPEAKER_00: but it's just built now.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: And so I had that question to myself.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: I was like, well, I could just live off this.
19:05
Plus also,
19:07
you could become a six-figure creator and have that on your
19:09
title and all that.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: And so February,
19:13
SPEAKER_00: I was in that lane a little bit,
19:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:16
SPEAKER_00: and then I remember thinking like,
19:17
SPEAKER_00: but actually,
19:17
SPEAKER_00: what do I want?
19:19
you know is that what I want you know I'm just getting carried
19:21
along with this and
19:23
there's parts of my job that I really like do it you know and
19:27
so it's like actually
19:28
I like doing that stuff at that time I had do the bits I didn't
19:32
want to do and I
19:32
was like if I only had to get rid of that stuff that'd be
19:35
really good and so at the
19:37
moment I'm wanting to do what I want to do which is there's
19:41
bits of my job I really
19:42
SPEAKER_00: like and I really like
19:46
coaching people and I really like live cohorts and helping
19:49
people and so at the
19:52
moment I'm just doing that and kind of enjoying it and if my
19:56
job goes like
19:57
hopefully my boss doesn't watch this but my job goes a bit
19:59
pear-shaped you know it
20:00
means oh I might do more writing and make more money that way
20:03
I've got the kind of
20:04
flexibility so I'm just pretty relaxed and enjoying it and see
20:09
where we go really
20:11
SPEAKER_02: That's fun.
20:12
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: I want to ask about marketing in general.
20:16
SPEAKER_02: And when it comes to live cohorts,
20:20
SPEAKER_02: I've heard from many people and me included,
20:23
SPEAKER_02: it's really hard to get subscribers to sign up for live cohorts.
20:28
SPEAKER_02: Have you faced this problem?
20:30
SPEAKER_02: And if you haven't, again, what's your marketing strategy?
20:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:38
So,
20:39
I mean,
20:40
for me,
20:40
so for live cohorts tend to be priced much higher than my
20:44
digital products.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: So then I need less people to buy them, you know, to make it worthwhile.
20:51
So for me,
20:52
my live cohorts,
20:55
they do pretty,
20:56
I've only started them this year.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: But I've done three live cohorts.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: I did two on creating a digital product.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: And then this one is just on Substack and how to grow on Substack.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: So mine, I'm pretty happy with them.
21:19
SPEAKER_00: The numbers who sign up and what they pay,
21:23
they're a decent source of income and it's something I really
21:25
enjoy doing.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: So it's not something I've struggled to get people to...
21:31
SPEAKER_00: sign up for.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I probably get like 15, 20 maybe.
21:35
I've got 15 signed up for Monday and I've still got a week's
21:41
promotion to do.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: So I'm happy with that sort of number.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, that makes it pretty good for me.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: What's the title of your cohort?
21:54
SPEAKER_02: What's the title of your cohort on Monday?
21:57
SPEAKER_00: Monday is the Substack Growth Map.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: And is Substack your only marketing avenue?
22:06
SPEAKER_02: Do you use paid ads, paid Facebook, or how do you market it?
22:12
SPEAKER_02: Because what happens is,
22:13
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
22:13
SPEAKER_02: we have followers,
22:15
SPEAKER_02: but followers do not necessarily pay the bills.
22:18
SPEAKER_02: So they have people like and whatever and retweet or repost, but...
22:24
SPEAKER_02: Those who actually sign, it's usually way less.
22:28
SPEAKER_02: So what is your marketing platform?
22:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: So my strategy since the start,
22:35
and I was taught this when I knew nothing and I just listened
22:38
to other people like
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Nicholas Cole or whatever like that.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: And my strategy from the start was to build an email list on kit.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: So I started that after about seven or eight months,
22:48
SPEAKER_00: I started an email list on kit and I sell to my kit list.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: So my email list on kit, that's who I sell products to.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: And then I
23:00
SPEAKER_00: I was on medium to get people onto my kit list.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: And I've tried like LinkedIn and Twitter, but really it was medium.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: And now it's like sub staff notes and that sort of stuff.
23:11
And I would use that to get people onto my list,
23:13
but I would only talk to my list.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: And through affiliates a little bit as well,
23:17
SPEAKER_00: but I wouldn't do ads or on Facebook or anything like that.
23:20
It would be the people who've been getting my free content and
23:23
they see what I can
23:25
SPEAKER_00: produce and they see the sort of person I am and how I share stuff.
23:29
And then that's the people I invite to come on to my quarters
23:33
and products and that
23:34
SPEAKER_00: sort of stuff.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: I've got about 9,500 subscribers on KITS.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: So do you manually add the people who subscribe to Substack to Kit?
23:47
SPEAKER_02: Or is there like an automated way?
23:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, once a month.
23:52
Once a month,
23:53
I add my new subscribers that month from Substack add to my kit
23:58
list.
23:59
And then they will get an email saying my kit list is called
24:04
The Comparing Writer
24:06
SPEAKER_00: and Substack's The Irresistible Writer.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: So I've added you to my sister publication.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: If you're not interested, you can unsubscribe.
24:16
So yeah,
24:17
once a month,
24:17
beginning of the month,
24:18
I just add all the new ones to that.
24:21
And I mean,
24:23
I'm occasionally on LinkedIn and Medium and I have lead
24:25
magnets.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: That's really how I do it.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: That's how I get people onto my list, really, outside of Substack.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that's kind of how I do it.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: Hmm, that's an interesting strategy.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: Is there any,
24:42
SPEAKER_02: like,
24:43
SPEAKER_02: a code that you can add that can add this,
24:47
SPEAKER_02: like,
24:47
SPEAKER_02: automated,
24:48
SPEAKER_02: like,
24:49
SPEAKER_02: whatever those things,
24:49
SPEAKER_02: like Zapier code?
24:51
Because it's very time-consuming to keep adding everyone to
24:57
manually,
24:57
correct?
24:58
SPEAKER_02: Unless you have, like, a virtual assistant or someone.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: No, it probably takes me, like, four minutes.
25:05
SPEAKER_02: Oh,
25:05
SPEAKER_02: wow,
25:05
SPEAKER_02: you're fast,
25:06
SPEAKER_02: because I do the same,
25:07
SPEAKER_02: and I just hate it,
25:08
SPEAKER_02: because it's like I have to add,
25:10
SPEAKER_02: and yeah,
25:10
SPEAKER_02: but how...
25:11
SPEAKER_00: Do you not just,
25:13
SPEAKER_00: you press a button to export them from Substack,
25:16
SPEAKER_00: then you get a spreadsheet list,
25:19
SPEAKER_00: and then I just add that list to kit,
25:22
SPEAKER_00: and that's done.
25:24
SPEAKER_02: But when you export the list, it exports all the lists.
25:27
SPEAKER_02: It does not export the last few.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: No, you can filter it on Substack.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: You filter it to the last 30 days.
25:35
SPEAKER_02: Ah, I see.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: I see.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: And then I go to export that and then I add that.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: So it only takes me a couple of minutes.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: You can do automations through Zapier.
25:41
Some people do that,
25:42
but because it takes me a couple of minutes,
25:45
then I just do that.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: And the main thing is,
25:49
SPEAKER_00: so when we come back to selling and marketing,
25:52
SPEAKER_00: I will send a lot of emails.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: Like for the Substack Growth Map, I will have a waiting list.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: People have opted in to hear about it, my kit list.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: And they will get probably about 10 emails over two weeks about it.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: You know,
26:05
SPEAKER_00: they'll get a lot of information and a lot of explanation to it,
26:09
SPEAKER_00: which you can't do on Substack.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, you just tell them once, perhaps.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: And I found that focused information,
26:16
SPEAKER_00: selling marketing,
26:17
SPEAKER_00: is the way to really get people to buy in.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: If you just send, if I send one or two emails, nobody will buy my stuff.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: one or two dimensions.
26:25
I've got to explain it and answer questions and provide
26:28
socialist proof and tell
26:30
SPEAKER_00: stories and give them a little peek inside it and explain why,
26:33
SPEAKER_00: how it's helped me.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: There's lots of things I've got to explain to people,
26:38
SPEAKER_00: which I do to the people who are interested.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: And that's how I get my sales.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: And that's why I have Kit,
26:45
SPEAKER_00: not just Substack,
26:46
because it helps you do all that stuff with automations and
26:49
sequencing and all that
26:50
SPEAKER_00: sort of stuff.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: I'm stealing all your ideas.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: Remember, we all steal like an artist.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: You know that book?
27:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, since you're a big reader.
27:04
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I'm just going into the weeds here.
27:08
So what is the difference between the content that you send on
27:13
your Substack list
27:15
SPEAKER_02: versus the content that you send to your kit list?
27:18
SPEAKER_02: And what is your cadence?
27:21
SPEAKER_02: for each publication?
27:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so my kit list, they get an email every Wednesday.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: Once a week, they'll get an email, which is really about helping them.
27:32
So there'll be some content,
27:33
some advice,
27:34
some tips,
27:35
some stories or whatever.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: And I've done that since I started that list.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: And the reason that continues is because that predates Substack.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: So they're not all Substackers on there.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: So it's about building an audience and writing and making money.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: So they'll get once a week.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: And then Substack will get three posts twice a week.
27:57
And the only difference between those two probably is my kit
28:01
newsletter on a Wednesday.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: It tends to be a bit shorter.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: because that only goes to my list.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: Whereas on Substack, when you write a post, that goes to your list.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: But then also when you share on notes, that might reach a wider audience.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: So that tends to be a bit longer.
28:16
And I don't assume that they know anything about me because it
28:20
might be a new
28:20
SPEAKER_00: person clicking on it on notes.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: So that might have a stronger introduction and be a bit longer.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: But...
28:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
28:30
SPEAKER_00: so if I got an idea for an article,
28:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:33
like I was writing one about curiosity and how you raise
28:36
people's curiosity through
28:37
SPEAKER_00: your article.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Now I've got an idea, I'm going to write about that.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: That could go in Kit or it could go in Substack.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: It could go either way, do you know what I mean?
28:45
SPEAKER_00: And if it goes in Kit, it's a bit shorter for me.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: Substack, it'll be a bit longer if it's a post.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: But apart from that, there's not a lot of difference.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: Do you move people from Kit to Substack?
28:59
SPEAKER_00: No.
29:00
SPEAKER_02: Why?
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Because the end of my journey for people is Kit...
29:11
SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm trying to get everybody to kit.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Ah, I see.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: They're going to buy a product.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: That's where we're going with this.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
29:18
SPEAKER_00: So if they're on kit,
29:20
I don't want to send them backwards and give them more content
29:24
necessarily,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: particularly for Substack,
29:26
SPEAKER_00: because they might not be on Substack.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: They might not be interested in Substack.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: So I don't send it that way.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: I just send it towards kit.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:35
Because I think it's important for people when you've got like
29:37
simple like notes
29:38
SPEAKER_00: and chat and posts,
29:40
SPEAKER_00: you've got to understand what you want your reader's journey to be.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: You know,
29:44
SPEAKER_00: so I see like on people's homepage on Substack,
29:47
SPEAKER_00: for example,
29:47
SPEAKER_00: they've got on the menu,
29:49
SPEAKER_00: they might have chat or they might have their notes.
29:53
uh as an option and it's like what is the reader's journey for
29:57
me notes is about
29:58
discovery and once they find me on notes I want them to be
30:02
pointed towards my post
30:03
I want them to be pointed to my home page to see the other
30:06
things that I offer but
30:07
I don't want them to send back to my notes because that's
30:09
sending them like
30:11
backwards do you know what I mean so you don't want it to be
30:12
circled you want to be
30:14
SPEAKER_01: clear on
30:15
way what your journey is so for me yeah the journey from
30:18
substack is to kit and
30:20
then to kit is to thrive car and my products and that sort of
30:22
thing oh wow so you
30:24
have like the top of the funnel whatever the top of the funnel
30:28
is notes and then
30:30
substack and then kit and then digital product and so if you
30:35
send kit every
30:36
SPEAKER_02: wednesday how often do you do you have a cadence for substack
30:42
SPEAKER_00: Substack is twice a week.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: They'll get a free post and once a week a paid post.
30:49
SPEAKER_02: And there's no redundancy between the two?
30:53
SPEAKER_00: Redundancy, what do you mean?
30:56
SPEAKER_00: Like the same content?
30:58
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: No, it's different.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: So you're actually sending three newsletters a week.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: Plus a tool, yeah.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: Plus a tool for the paid subscribers.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:13
SPEAKER_02: That's a lot of work.
31:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I see.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: I've got 200 articles on Medium.
31:26
SPEAKER_02: 600 articles.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: So I do stick my,
31:30
SPEAKER_00: some of my subset stuff,
31:31
SPEAKER_00: I stick on Medium now,
31:32
SPEAKER_00: but I don't write new stuff on Medium.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Medium, I used to write a new thing every day on there, you know.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: So I've got like the history of a lot of articles and lots of like ideas.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
31:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm always like just,
31:48
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
31:49
I'm always learning new things and having new ideas and just
31:52
reading new books.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: I just dump it in a post, you know.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
31:56
SPEAKER_02: That's actually very inspiring.
31:58
SPEAKER_02: And I'm curious about your mindset and your productivity technique.
32:02
SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, it's like a superpower you have.
32:06
And how did you train your mindset to actually be that
32:13
discipline and to be that productive?
32:15
SPEAKER_02: Like,
32:16
what are your tips like do you work out to increase the level
32:20
of endorphins so that
32:21
you can be happy do you have like a clean desk like I want to
32:25
just get into the
32:26
SPEAKER_02: actual practical tools that made you such a writing machine
32:33
SPEAKER_00: And I've always been quite obsessed with productivity,
32:37
SPEAKER_00: even in my work life,
32:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:39
SPEAKER_00: and I would be always thinking and reading the latest book and thinking,
32:44
SPEAKER_00: how can I use that?
32:45
SPEAKER_00: So I probably I have tried lots of things over the time.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: that would kind of help me,
32:51
which is where a lot of those tools come from that we talked
32:53
about earlier on.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
32:55
SPEAKER_00: And it was like, right, how do I do this?
32:57
SPEAKER_00: I want to find out a way and then I'll write it up, you know?
33:01
SPEAKER_00: So yes, I'm always kind of learning how to do something.
33:04
I'm always curious and it gives me a lot of energy to get a new
33:07
idea and to try it out.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: And then when I've tried it out,
33:12
SPEAKER_00: Actually, I just get to tell other people about it.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of my early stuff would be like,
33:17
SPEAKER_00: this is how I've written an article every week for 30 days.
33:20
We've been in our work nine to five and I'll just explain
33:23
people how I did it.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: So you find that it's this like flywheel.
33:27
So I read something and I get an idea and I try the idea out
33:30
and it works.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: But then actually I've just created some content for myself, haven't I?
33:34
SPEAKER_00: So as well as it making, helping me, then I just tell people about that.
33:40
SPEAKER_00: And now I'm just trained to share whatever I'm doing.
33:45
So a lot of my tools are quite easy to do because I'll just
33:47
look at my notes from
33:48
SPEAKER_00: last month or my titles or my articles and think,
33:51
SPEAKER_00: oh,
33:52
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
33:52
SPEAKER_00: that's what I was doing.
33:53
I'll just share that with other people and I'll turn it into a
33:55
tool for them.
33:57
so yeah so like walking I started walking probably about four
34:01
to six months ago I
34:03
read a book called Rest and Summer Stuff by Carl Newport and it
34:09
was all about this
34:10
SPEAKER_00: idea of
34:12
SPEAKER_00: A lot of the great productivity people historically did lots of walks.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, so I, so now, you know, so I added that to my rhythm.
34:21
So I'll probably write for about 90 minutes and two hours when
34:24
I first get up there
34:25
SPEAKER_00: and go for a walk,
34:26
SPEAKER_00: probably 40 minutes.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: And by the time I come back from the war,
34:31
SPEAKER_00: I'll have five new ideas because,
34:33
SPEAKER_00: like,
34:33
SPEAKER_00: that's the way the brain works.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, it just relaxes, it enjoys things, and it processes itself.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: And then I'll get all those down,
34:40
SPEAKER_00: and then I'll get to work with some more stuff,
34:43
SPEAKER_00: and then I'll finish by lunchtime or whatever.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: And, yeah, so it's just all kind of put in itself.
34:51
SPEAKER_02: So you mentioned Nicholas Cole quite a lot.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I'm a fan of his work as well.
34:57
SPEAKER_02: So I'm curious,
34:58
SPEAKER_02: who are the people that you try to emulate,
35:01
SPEAKER_02: the people that inspire you,
35:03
SPEAKER_02: the people that you try to steal from,
35:04
SPEAKER_02: in addition to Nicholas Cole,
35:07
SPEAKER_02: who's the people that you religiously follow,
35:12
SPEAKER_02: you subscribe to their newsletter,
35:14
SPEAKER_02: you would never ever unsubscribe from their newsletter.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: Who are these people?
35:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I don't read as much Nicholas Cole.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
35:24
SPEAKER_00: I was on one of his webinars last week,
35:26
SPEAKER_00: but I wouldn't read his stuff so much these days.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: But he would have been,
35:31
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
35:31
I would have devoured all his stuff probably in the first year
35:34
and studied all his
35:34
SPEAKER_00: techniques and all that sort of stuff and picked all that up.
35:39
uh kieran drew probably somebody i look to a lot at the moment
35:42
so i read his stuff
35:43
on twitter in the early days and now we're on substack note you
35:47
know then his short
35:48
form and his sales stuff so i bought some of his products uh
35:52
he's probably the
35:53
right uh i mean i signed up to his newsletter in 2023 and i'm
35:56
still reading it um
35:59
SPEAKER_00: he's probably the only one that uh
36:01
i've done that with um so yeah he's probably the the big one
36:06
that i would i would
36:07
follow um and then other creators who are around i just tend to
36:13
observe what
36:14
they're they're doing and just um whoever's got a lot of
36:17
followers i'll go and look
36:19
at their stuff for a bit for kind of ideas or whatever but
36:22
probably kieran drew
36:22
would be a big one i would follow at the moment and then i tend
36:26
to just uh read
36:27
SPEAKER_00: books really on topics i'm interested in
36:32
SPEAKER_02: Fascinating.
36:34
SPEAKER_02: So what does the future hold for you?
36:37
SPEAKER_02: What are your big projects that you have in the pipeline?
36:42
SPEAKER_02: So I know Monday is the cohort and we'll just do a marketing plug here.
36:50
You know,
36:50
people can just go to your Substack profile and sign up from
36:55
there.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
36:57
SPEAKER_00: if they go onto the homepage of Irresistible Writer,
36:59
SPEAKER_00: they'll find it on the menu,
37:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:01
SPEAKER_00: Substack Growth Cohort,
37:03
SPEAKER_00: and they can get to the link for that.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: But they need to be quick.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, what are my plans for that?
37:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't plan very far in advance.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm probably only thinking of the next three, four months.
37:16
And one of the things that happened is since I started,
37:20
I've just come up with new ideas.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: I've created products, cohorts, tried stuff out.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: And probably the last three months,
37:25
SPEAKER_00: I've got to the point where I'm like,
37:27
SPEAKER_00: I just can't keep doing new ideas because I've run out of time.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: And I'm trying to be a bit more,
37:33
I'm trying to work out actually what is it I want to do and
37:36
being a bit more
37:37
SPEAKER_00: efficient with what I create.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: And because you can't just have three products a week to sell.
37:45
So Cohort is the new thing that I've been doing over the last
37:48
three,
37:48
four months.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: And I need to create some more digital products.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: And so I've got a couple of ideas on them.
37:56
One's the visibility blueprint I'm thinking about,
37:59
that people are struggling to get visibility.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: It's like, how do you get seen?
38:03
SPEAKER_00: What are the qualities of the types of writing that gets seen?
38:07
SPEAKER_00: And I've just been thinking about that a little bit.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: So I probably will end up doing a live cohort,
38:13
SPEAKER_00: then I'll create a digital product,
38:15
SPEAKER_00: then I'll do a live cohort,
38:16
SPEAKER_00: then a digital product,
38:18
SPEAKER_00: and just kind of alternate those two things,
38:20
SPEAKER_00: I think.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: Because I kind of,
38:22
probably prefer the live cohort but that's like you're limited
38:27
with your time
38:27
whereas when you create a product you know my first product I
38:30
created about 20
38:32
months ago and someone just bought it yesterday and it's like
38:37
20 months ago and
38:37
it's still paying me money so if I create a new product today
38:40
it means like in two
38:41
SPEAKER_00: years time I'll still get $100 for it you know so I want to kind of
38:45
SPEAKER_00: keep their products.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: And it helps because the products tend to be cheaper.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: They tend to be under $100 for people.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: So it's a bit more accessible for those who can't afford a cohort.
38:55
So,
38:56
yeah,
38:57
I'm trying to get into a rhythm of kind of alternating those
38:59
things.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: Where do you host your cohorts?
39:07
SPEAKER_00: I just run them on Zoom.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
39:10
SPEAKER_02: So you just, you run them on Zoom.
39:12
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
39:13
So people,
39:14
you just send them like links and then they join like weekly
39:19
sessions?
39:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
39:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's interesting.
39:26
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
39:27
SPEAKER_02: So what about a website?
39:30
SPEAKER_02: Do you invest time in your website or how does your website look like?
39:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't have a website.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: You don't have a website.
39:39
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
39:40
SPEAKER_02: Do you think you don't need one or you think Substack is enough?
39:49
SPEAKER_00: I guess that, yeah, I mean, I don't really need one.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm making good money without one.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: So I'll just kind of,
39:59
carry on regardless you know like in a sense that if I ever
40:02
want to put something
40:04
somewhere I do use my Substack homepage you know the menu on
40:07
the top you know if I
40:08
want to provide links for things I can just put that there and
40:11
like you said how do
40:12
people get access it's like just go to my homepage on Substack
40:15
you know I've got a
40:16
SPEAKER_00: place where I can put stuff
40:19
SPEAKER_00: So my only public content, you know, so my kit newsletter is not public.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: That just goes to my subscribers.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: But my Substack content is public.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: But then that's organized on my homepage of my Substack newsletter.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: So for me, that kind of works.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: Maybe one day I feel a need for it, but I don't really at the moment.
40:39
SPEAKER_02: So how do people find your kit newsletter if you don't have a website?
40:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:44
They will find it either from LinkedIn or my Medium content or
40:52
my Substack content.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: So they'll find it from my social media stuff.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: But actually, they won't directly come onto my kit newsletter.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: They will access one of my free lead magnets.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: So I've got various lead free courses and products.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: So they'll normally sign up for one of them,
41:08
SPEAKER_00: and then they'll end up on my kit newsletter from that.
41:11
SPEAKER_02: What about SEO?
41:12
SPEAKER_02: Like if someone Googles a sub-stack growth expert,
41:18
SPEAKER_02: and when you have a website,
41:19
supposedly it should improve your SEO and increase your rate of
41:26
discovery.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: I think that formal is really dangerous and that you can hear...
41:35
SPEAKER_00: You can be like,
41:36
SPEAKER_00: oh,
41:36
I should have SEO and I should be on Twitter and I should be on
41:40
LinkedIn and I
41:41
SPEAKER_00: should be on this and I should be on Blue Sky and I should be on Threads.
41:45
And for me,
41:46
I just think actually it's important to just do one thing well.
41:51
So the thing that I do well is Substack and that is working
41:55
because I got 800 plus
41:56
SPEAKER_00: subscribers last month.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: So it's like I'm pretty happy with that, you know.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:01
SPEAKER_00: Because if I take energy to learn SEO on Google and a website,
42:05
SPEAKER_00: then that's energy I'm not putting into notes and that sort of stuff.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: So I think that you experiment with what works.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: So I've tried LinkedIn, tried Twitter, tried Quora.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: But you should kind of do some experiments.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: But when you find one that fits,
42:22
SPEAKER_00: you should double down on that and just not worry about the other stuff,
42:26
SPEAKER_00: which is what I'm doing.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: And if Substack,
42:29
SPEAKER_00: falls apart and stops working like Medium did,
42:32
SPEAKER_00: then you just find a new place and then you just double down on that.
42:35
SPEAKER_00: But I think trying to do lots of things,
42:38
SPEAKER_00: actually,
42:38
SPEAKER_00: you will end up not doing very many things well,
42:41
SPEAKER_00: you know.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: So when people come to me and say,
42:44
SPEAKER_00: oh,
42:44
I'm trying to grow on Substack Notes when I'm not writing on my
42:48
LinkedIn and stuff,
42:50
And I'm just like,
42:51
actually pick one and learn to be good at it rather than bad at
42:54
two.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: Because actually it's really hard to succeed on one platform.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: There's quite a lot of nuances about it and kind of learning what works,
43:01
SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
43:03
SPEAKER_00: that you need to be quite focused really.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: That's a superpower, I think.
43:08
SPEAKER_02: True.
43:09
SPEAKER_02: Before we conclude, you mentioned that you're a big reader.
43:13
SPEAKER_02: And what is one book that or,
43:15
SPEAKER_02: you know,
43:15
SPEAKER_02: a couple of books that you would recommend to creators and writers?
43:20
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be like the writing process or the writing technique,
43:24
SPEAKER_02: but it can be productivity,
43:25
SPEAKER_02: it can be mindset,
43:27
SPEAKER_02: something that really helped you in this kind of substand growth game,
43:32
SPEAKER_02: if you want to call it.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: That's a terrible question because I read so many books.
43:37
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
43:41
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: So,
43:42
SPEAKER_00: and somebody who's not,
43:44
SPEAKER_00: doesn't write about writing,
43:45
SPEAKER_00: but I find very stimulating is Adam Grant.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: So Adam Grant,
43:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:49
SPEAKER_00: things like Originals and Give and Take,
43:52
SPEAKER_00: which are not directly about writing,
43:54
SPEAKER_00: but they're certainly about growth as an individual and personal growth.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: And I find that very stimulating.
44:00
Because I used to read just about writing and then it gets
44:04
quite stale,
44:05
doesn't it?
44:05
SPEAKER_00: So then you've got to look at kind of other sources.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: But like if I was saying somebody should read one book on writing,
44:13
SPEAKER_00: it would be Nicholas Cole's book on writing.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, in business of online writing, I think it's called.
44:19
You know,
44:19
if I was recommending one book on writing,
44:21
that's the one I would say to people.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: But I like Cal Newport on productivity.
44:27
You know,
44:27
I like reading his stuff and thinking about it in that sense as
44:30
well.
44:31
SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's great.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: That's great.
44:33
Any last words you would like to say to us before we conclude
44:38
about your cohort,
44:39
SPEAKER_02: where people can find you,
44:41
SPEAKER_02: your digital products,
44:42
anything you'd like to say to conclude this wonderful and
44:46
insightful interview?
44:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that...
44:54
SPEAKER_00: that anyone can grow online.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: It's really possible for anyone to grow online.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: But you can't do it in a few weeks.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: You need to give yourself a year.
45:03
And you need to give yourself a year of learning what works and
45:07
experimenting.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: So pick a couple of experiments or things...
45:10
an idea from a couple of people that you're going to put into
45:12
practice and then
45:13
SPEAKER_00: ignore the noise,
45:14
do that for a few months and then come up for air and pick a
45:17
few other ideas,
45:18
apply them for a few more months and then come up for noise and
45:21
do that for 12
45:22
SPEAKER_00: months.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: And then you'll find that you are somewhere.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that means buying courses from me or other people.
45:28
The thing that really distresses me when someone buys a course
45:31
of me and they say,
45:32
SPEAKER_00: I've just bought two of the courses of someone else.
45:35
Or they buy one of my courses and they've already bought the
45:37
previous three and
45:37
SPEAKER_00: they haven't put any of that learning into practice yet.
45:40
SPEAKER_00: It's just like buy one thing,
45:42
SPEAKER_00: put it into practice for six months,
45:44
SPEAKER_00: come up for air,
45:45
SPEAKER_00: pick another thing.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: Because it takes a year to get anywhere, really.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't take weeks.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: It takes years.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: You need to be walking in the same direction for a year.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: If you jump on from platform to platform or thing to thing,
45:59
SPEAKER_00: you're just going around in spattles.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: So that's the thing I would kind of encourage.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: That's what I was taught when I first started on Medium.
46:07
And I'm glad I got that because I give myself a year of trying
46:11
to learn before I
46:12
SPEAKER_00: kind of worried about the stats or growth or whatever.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
46:17
SPEAKER_02: So Derek, this has been wonderful.
46:19
SPEAKER_02: And we have actually live,
46:20
SPEAKER_02: 58 people live,
46:22
SPEAKER_02: which I think that's the biggest for me,
46:26
which speaks for your popularity and the fact that you actually
46:32
give insightful
46:33
SPEAKER_02: content.
46:33
So thank you again for accepting my invite and sharing all your
46:38
tips and tricks.
46:39
I'm like now really pumped up and excited and I'm going to
46:43
steal some of your strategies.
46:45
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
46:46
SPEAKER_02: Forgive me.
46:48
SPEAKER_02: Don't sue me, please.
46:50
And for anyone who watched it live or for anyone who's going to
46:53
watch the replay,
46:55
SPEAKER_02: thank you so much for joining us today for Substack Live.
47:00
SPEAKER_02: And I will be running a number of Substack Live.
47:02
SPEAKER_02: Actually, I have another one today as well.
47:05
SPEAKER_02: And feel free to subscribe to Derek's Substack or my Substack.
47:10
SPEAKER_02: And until we meet again, thank you very much.
47:14
SPEAKER_02: Bye.
47:14
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
47:15
SPEAKER_01: Bye-bye.
47:15
SPEAKER_02: Bye.