Latest / No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women / Mobbing: Group Exclusion and Psychological Harassment

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Mobbing: Group Exclusion and Psychological Harassment · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:00
  Alicia: If leaders either don't know what to do with it, don't care, or are participating in it, then it's not going to change, right?
• 0:09
  Alicia: Because that that feeling of fear that makes the bystanders kind of feel like they don't have a choice, then it's never going to get solved.
• 0:19
  Mary: For centuries, the phrase shrinking violet was used to diminish women, to suggest we were meant to be small and meek.
• 0:26
  Mary: But in nature, violets are anything but weak.
• 0:29
  Mary: They're resilient, beautiful, and essential to the ecosystem.
• 0:33
  Mary: Hi, I'm Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist, and each week I sit down with women who remind us that being compared to a violet isn't an insult.
• 0:41
  Mary: It's a testament to strength, endurance, and the power of taking up space and living by your true nature.
• 0:47
  Mary: If you're ready to stop shrinking and start thriving, you're in the right place.
• 0:52
  Mary: Girls tend to weaponize social connections in a different way than boys do.
• 1:08
  Mary: Most women would say that our female friendships can be their own form of soulmates, and the unique intimacy of these relationships starts when we're kids.
• 1:17
  Mary: As teens, we can be at our most vulnerable, and a betrayal of trust alone can be devastating.
• 1:23
  Mary: But when that betrayal is public and we recognize that we have lost a whole support system, the isolation can be crushing.
• 1:31
  Mary: And as social media platforms grew over the course of my career, I saw the effect multiply and spread like wildfire, making it nearly impossible to find the source and stop the spread.
• 1:43
  Mary: Sadly, I saw this behavior in girls as young as eight years old, and by fourth grade, they were adept at wielding this unique weapon.
• 1:52
  Mary: Thanks to my guest today, I now know the term for this, mobbing.
• 1:56
  Mary: It is defined as the systematic group-based exclusion and psychological harassment of a single target.
• 2:03
  Mary: It's distinct from ordinary bullying because it requires a crowd, and interestingly, most of that crowd never sees itself as doing anything wrong.
• 2:12
  Mary: And while it does not solely happen to women, we are, by and large, the recipients.
• 2:17
  Mary: In fact, I experienced this in my last full-time position.
• 2:21
  Mary: In hindsight, I suspect all of the barely civil behavior and the usurping of the responsibilities of my job by a certain coworker were recognized yet encouraged.
• 2:32
  Mary: But at the same time, it felt confusing and disorienting.
• 2:36
  Mary: Of course, being in a professional setting, not everyone succumbed to the bullying behavior, or more likely, the instigator knew who was susceptible.
• 2:45
  Mary: My guest today, Alicia Lashewski, has personal experience with mobbing.
• 2:50
  Mary: And like so many of my guests, she has leveraged that experience to help others.
• 2:54
  Mary: In fact, she's writing a book about it, Stop the Mobbing.
• 2:57
  Mary: So people in positions to intervene know how to spot it and stop it.
• 3:01
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violence, Alicia.
• 3:04
  Alicia: Thank you very much.
• 3:05
  Alicia: Thank you for that good introduction.
• 3:06
  Alicia: And I'm sorry that it happened to you.
• 3:09
  Mary: So well, it's all anything like that is a learning experience.
• 3:13
  Mary: You know, it was it was very humbling and it took a long time to sort of unravel it all.
• 3:18
  Mary: But um I'm so I'm really looking forward to this topic because having experienced it with so many of my students, seeing it happen so young, and then experiencing it myself when I was, I mean, well into my 50s, and as a therapist, still felt knocked back on my heels.
• 3:37
  Mary: So I'm really looking forward to sort of dissecting, learning more about it.
• 3:42
  Mary: But let's start with your story.
• 3:45
  Mary: So what had what have you experienced in life that you feel like these are the stepping stones that got me to where I am right now?
• 3:54
  Alicia: So, you know, it's funny because you you have all these lived experiences, and you know, and I was head of marketing and communications, and work culture was always part of my responsibility, right?
• 4:06
  Alicia: To champion it, to support it.
• 4:08
  Alicia: And, you know, as as I went through my career, there's you can now look back and say when it was good, when it was authentic, and when it wasn't.
• 4:15
  Alicia: So I think all of these experiences have kind of gotten me to this place.
• 4:19
  Alicia: One in particular that drove me to this point where I said I have to learn more was exactly what you just described.
• 4:26
  Alicia: I felt like I was got me on my heels.
• 4:29
  Alicia: Great, great description because you just don't know, you've never, it's it's not something that you would do.
• 4:34
  Alicia: And I had uh gone to work with a client of mine, and things were going good.
• 4:40
  Alicia: Um, and then all of a sudden, I'm not getting included in certain meetings by a peer of mine, and she was tasking, I think you were saying, one of, you know, someone in her team to do stuff that I should be doing.
• 4:51
  Alicia: So, you know, you're just kind of like, why, why, why?
• 4:54
  Alicia: You know, you're going all the way through it.
• 4:56
  Alicia: And it was obvious there was like kind of this, and I'm gonna say this mean girl behavior because that's what another coworker in the company who left as well, called it.
• 5:07
  Alicia: Um, she reported it to HR.
• 5:09
  Alicia: And but it's subtle, it's so subtle.
• 5:12
  Alicia: So it just it's like not getting included in meetings, it's um, you know, not being congratulated on group chats.
• 5:20
  Alicia: I mean, it's super, super subtle to the point that you think it's almost minimal.
• 5:24
  Alicia: And the people in power are minimal, but are complicit.
• 5:28
  Alicia: And so I ended up getting to the point where I had to go see, you know, someone in, you know, had to go see a psychiatrist because I was like, what the hell is going on?
• 5:37
  Alicia: I've been a high achiever.
• 5:38
  Alicia: And he was like, I think that sounds like mobbing.
• 5:41
  Alicia: And ironically, my daughter was experiencing something similar in high school.
• 5:45
  Alicia: So I was like, okay, well, at least we have a name for it.
• 5:48
  Alicia: So I just went all in and researched it.
• 5:50
  Alicia: I ended up leaving my job because I couldn't take it anymore.
• 5:55
  Alicia: And it was a blessing.
• 5:57
  Alicia: And my husband said, just go for it.
• 5:59
  Alicia: So I've gotten really, really, really, really smart on this for the last over a year to well, over a year.
• 6:05
  Alicia: And I didn't invent the word mobbing.
• 6:07
  Alicia: Heinz Lehmann did there's people before me.
• 6:10
  Alicia: There's I could, there's really, really, really smart people that have named it, specific to workplace.
• 6:16
  Alicia: But when you start peeling all this stuff back, the reality is mobbing applies to anywhere where it's exactly what you said, a group of people that are just setting you up for failure.
• 6:26
  Alicia: And that could be in an academic setting, a work setting, or an athletic team.
• 6:30
  Alicia: So those are my three focus areas.
• 6:32
  Alicia: And really specifically helping people understand it by naming it, spotting it, and then how to deal with it before it gets to the point that someone really talented has to leave their job like you did.
• 6:46
  Alicia: So that's my story.
• 6:48
  Mary: Yeah.
• 6:48
  Mary: Well, and it's informing so much of what you're doing.
• 6:51
  Mary: But again, as you said, I'm sorry that you experienced that.
• 6:54
  Mary: And it's so, it's there's so many parts of it that are fascinating because I've spent 36 years of my life dealing with humans, studying human behavior.
• 7:04
  Mary: And so many of so many of the things I experienced surprised me.
• 7:09
  Mary: And I went to HR too, but it's so hard to describe it.
• 7:14
  Mary: And at the same time, I felt like, am I imagining this?
• 7:18
  Mary: Maybe I'm not trying hard enough because there was a new supervisor in the mix, and so there was some stuff happening there.
• 7:24
  Mary: So it was really difficult.
• 7:26
  Mary: So do you feel like this is now?
• 7:30
  Mary: I think you say it's not just women, but I feel like it's it's a very uh something that's very connected to how women are socialized.
• 7:38
  Mary: So do you feel like it is mostly women?
• 7:42
  Mary: And do you have a theory about that?
• 7:47
  Alicia: So I think it is mostly women.
• 7:49
  Alicia: It is not exclusively women, then.
• 7:52
  Alicia: That's that is a big key.
• 7:54
  Alicia: Um, it is definitely not exclusively women.
• 7:57
  Alicia: And in my daughter's case, boys participated in it as well.
• 8:02
  Alicia: It became like it's a group dynamic.
• 8:04
  Alicia: But, you know, I think my theory, unfounded, I'm not a scientist, is that it is.
• 8:09
  Alicia: And I think women are just, you know, we're just taught like that as little girls and, you know, and the group and we feel safe and we love, we love that community and we're softer and all the things, you know, and that's I'm probably insulting somebody by saying that we're softer.
• 8:23
  Alicia: I can say I'm softer.
• 8:25
  Alicia: And so I do think it is.
• 8:27
  Alicia: I think that part of the challenge right now, to be to be very brutally honest, is that if we don't start attacking this problem at every age group.
• 8:38
  Alicia: And that's really why I've added, you know, academic, you know, school settings to it and really starting to socialize this, because if you have a name to it, it's easier to spot it.
• 8:50
  Alicia: And then the same way years ago, sexual harassment didn't have a name, and then it did.
• 8:55
  Alicia: And then now we take classes for it.
• 8:57
  Alicia: So I feel like sometimes by naming something, hopefully that will click in a kid, just like bullying, you know.
• 9:05
  Alicia: Wait, this, this this shouldn't feel right to exclude someone in this way.
• 9:11
  Alicia: So I think that is, but I do think that girls do it more.
• 9:14
  Alicia: And I don't know why in corporate America or in the workplace, as women, we feel like we have to do that to, you know, move our positions forward.
• 9:24
  Alicia: I don't know why.
• 9:25
  Alicia: I wish I knew why.
• 9:26
  Alicia: It makes it's not a good look.
• 9:29
  Mary: Yeah.
• 9:29
  Alicia: Um, but we all do it.
• 9:31
  Alicia: I've done it.
• 9:32
  Alicia: I've done it.
• 9:33
  Alicia: Not intentionally.
• 9:35
  Alicia: I've gone on, but I've I've done it.
• 9:36
  Alicia: I can say I haven't intentionally done it, but I can tell you that you and I have both done it unintentionally, because it becomes so subtle that you don't even know you're participating in it until it's too late.
• 9:48
  Mary: Yeah.
• 9:48
  Mary: Um, and I think in my case, it did get to the point where people did know.
• 9:54
  Mary: They they 100% knew, but there was someone in power that I think was driving it.
• 10:00
  Mary: And so there's sort of another part of it that you mentioned Queen Bee.
• 10:06
  Mary: You know, we know that from the Mean Girls movie.
• 10:08
  Mary: And, you know, that's been around quite a while.
• 10:10
  Mary: But I'm wondering in what what you have learned or what you've experienced, do you feel like there's typically one person that's sort of the driver, the instigator?
• 10:22
  Alicia: Always.
• 10:23
  Alicia: There's always one person that is the instigator.
• 10:26
  Alicia: And that person is usually someone that is either threatened, insecure, um ambitious, it could be.
• 10:38
  Alicia: Um, I mean, again, these are all age groups that we're describing, right?
• 10:41
  Alicia: But the that is their way to get the power.
• 10:45
  Alicia: But, you know, in my daughter's case, that person had done it to other people before.
• 10:50
  Alicia: And my daughter participated.
• 10:53
  Alicia: She'll tell you.
• 10:54
  Alicia: She's done, she's gone on her own apology tour since then.
• 10:57
  Alicia: But um, you know, so normally what happens is you know that that person has a lot of power, and you know that if you don't go along with it, that you're you could be next.
• 11:09
  Alicia: Nobody wants to be that person.
• 11:11
  Alicia: Nobody does.
• 11:12
  Alicia: And in the case of, you know, what happened to you, it was easy to spot.
• 11:16
  Alicia: It was easy to spot with me.
• 11:17
  Alicia: I had people side messaging me or calling me saying, You did such a good job.
• 11:23
  Alicia: Why don't they praise you?
• 11:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 11:26
  Alicia: But notice they didn't say it on the on the team call.
• 11:30
  unknown: Yeah.
• 11:31
  Alicia: You know, that's it.
• 11:32
  Mary: Think about it.
• 11:33
  Mary: They were afraid.
• 11:34
  Mary: Yep.
• 11:34
  Mary: That's so true.
• 11:36
  Mary: Because I remember being in this, and you know, everybody, there were people targeted also, but I was sort of like at the top of the food chain with this targeting.
• 11:47
  Mary: And I remember thinking, everybody's seeing this.
• 11:50
  Mary: They're talking to me about it.
• 11:51
  Mary: Why is no one saying anything?
• 11:54
  Mary: Why are they not backing me up?
• 11:56
  Mary: Why are they not saying, hey, I'll go to HR and support what you're saying?
• 12:01
  Mary: I was shocked because I felt like I would do that.
• 12:04
  Mary: Now we don't know, right?
• 12:06
  Mary: We don't know if we would do that.
• 12:07
  Mary: But I feel like at that age, I wouldn't have done it when I was younger.
• 12:11
  Mary: I would have been afraid.
• 12:12
  Mary: And it's not that I wouldn't have been afraid, but that's another interesting dynamic, is that it really is the fear of like, I just want to stay under the radar.
• 12:22
  Mary: And there's that goes back to the title of my podcast.
• 12:25
  Mary: We shrink when we're afraid, because if we step out, then we can become the target, also.
• 12:33
  Alicia: That's exactly right.
• 12:34
  Alicia: And that's why when I saw your podcast, I was like, this is a great, you know, you can't shrink.
• 12:38
  Alicia: And I get it.
• 12:39
  Alicia: You don't want to be that, you don't want to be the next victim, or you don't want to be the person that goes out on a limb to, you know, it's just it's hard.
• 12:48
  Alicia: And I get it.
• 12:49
  Alicia: I get it.
• 12:49
  Alicia: Because the reason that HR doesn't know what to do with it or a school administrator is that number one, they haven't heard of it, like, and it's so subtle they don't know what they're looking for, right?
• 13:00
  Alicia: And then if you don't know what you're looking for and you haven't heard of it, and there's no consequences, then what do you do with this?
• 13:08
  Alicia: So yeah, I do believe it it has to start at the top because there has to be, you know, that unspoken policy of like knowing what it is.
• 13:17
  Alicia: And then there's a lot of work that has to be done with leaders.
• 13:20
  Alicia: There's a lot of work that has to be done on in any type of group dynamic so that people can spot it and say, at some point it's gonna have to feel uncomfortable to participate in it.
• 13:30
  Mary: Yeah.
• 13:30
  Alicia: And that's that's that level of discomfort is that is what I'm hoping for that somebody feels like, oh, you know.
• 13:38
  Alicia: So it I I mean, this is a very unscientific example I'm gonna give you.
• 13:42
  Alicia: But um, one of my kids is a boy, and you know, he comes home from school during this last year and a half that I was working on this.
• 13:50
  Alicia: And my daughter and I would talk about it and I would explain it to my husband.
• 13:53
  Alicia: And he said, Yeah, you know, this kid doesn't want me to say hello to that kid anymore.
• 13:58
  Alicia: It's like, okay.
• 14:00
  Alicia: I was like, why?
• 14:01
  Alicia: And he goes, Well, he goes, I asked why.
• 14:02
  Alicia: What what's we were all friends a minute ago?
• 14:04
  Alicia: And he goes, Oh, you know what?
• 14:05
  Alicia: We don't really hang out with him anymore.
• 14:07
  Alicia: He's mean.
• 14:08
  Alicia: And I said, What did you do?
• 14:09
  Alicia: He goes, I said hello to him.
• 14:11
  Alicia: He goes, it kind of felt like that mobbing thing you've been talking about.
• 14:14
  Alicia: And I said, I don't want to do that.
• 14:16
  Alicia: So that's very unscientific.
• 14:19
  Alicia: Um, but you know, my sweet boy just knowing the name of it was like, I'm not gonna do that.
• 14:23
  Alicia: And so I hope that just by understanding it, that might stop an adult or you know what I mean?
• 14:30
  Alicia: And or stop leaders from allowing that to to, you know, kind of infuse the work culture.
• 14:35
  Mary: Yeah.
• 14:35
  Mary: Well, and I can think about what this might look like in a school setting.
• 14:40
  Mary: So I can see if it gets to this point, the Queen Bee gets called into the principal's office, the eyes get big and innocent.
• 14:47
  Mary: And I, she totally misinterpreted that.
• 14:50
  Mary: And I think that's where it can get really confusing for someone in that sort of position, like a principal, because it's this person says one thing, this other person says the other, no one's watching it all the time.
• 15:03
  Mary: And we are so good at, especially with social media now, sending those zingers.
• 15:09
  Mary: I mean, I think about um Snapchat, where you send a message and then it disappears.
• 15:14
  Mary: Who can prove whatever happened?
• 15:16
  Mary: So I feel like social media has increased it by a million fold.
• 15:21
  Alicia: Yeah.
• 15:22
  Alicia: Well, the Snapchat, I can tell you, was a great breeding ground for what happened to my daughter.
• 15:28
  Alicia: Um, creating a group chat, you know, one that includes the person, one that doesn't include the person.
• 15:35
  Alicia: Um, I can tell you that anybody, if you're a mom, like, you know, like Snapchat, it does not always disappear.
• 15:42
  Alicia: People can save chats, people can take a picture with another phone.
• 15:47
  Alicia: So um, we've got a lot of pictures of the Snapchat, um, you know, stuff that she was the victim of.
• 15:55
  Alicia: Um, she didn't know it at the time, but you know, she the the Queen Bee did it to somebody else, and now we know.
• 16:01
  Alicia: And we know that they were taking pictures of my daughter in the hallway and making fun of her on that little group chat and things like that.
• 16:09
  Alicia: Um, so to your point about the administrators, though, it is hard, you know.
• 16:13
  Alicia: And if you get called in and and you know, yeah, you know, it wasn't me, we're just not friends anymore, or you know, what she did, or they've convinced that she did that.
• 16:20
  Alicia: It starts with a lie.
• 16:22
  Alicia: Normally, there's the spark that's a lie.
• 16:23
  Alicia: But I would say that the tool, one of the things that I have kind of in the playbook for this is don't necessarily call the person that started it.
• 16:33
  Mary: Yes.
• 16:34
  Alicia: I want to tell you, and I'm not, I've never worked in a school, but you have to, I have to believe that they know they know those, they know who the queen bees are.
• 16:44
  Alicia: They know.
• 16:44
  Alicia: And so ask the person that you notice that had a sudden shift with the person that's coming in.
• 16:52
  Alicia: Like why?
• 16:53
  Alicia: And ask that person without Queen B or King B around why?
• 16:59
  Alicia: Why did you do this?
• 17:00
  Alicia: What did you do?
• 17:01
  Alicia: Have you validated that?
• 17:02
  Alicia: Have you talked to this person?
• 17:04
  Alicia: Have you on and then I guarantee you that person, one of those people will crack because most of the time they're doing it because of fear, but good people mob.
• 17:16
  Alicia: And that's why the biggest thing that I have really tried to make known as I've gone through this process and started talking about what I've been working on for a year over a year is that people aren't named in my book, schools are not named, workplaces are not named, real names are not used.
• 17:32
  Alicia: This is not a shaming game.
• 17:35
  Alicia: The reality is people do it because people, a lot of people just don't know any better.
• 17:40
  Alicia: And I and I want to believe the good in people.
• 17:42
  Alicia: And so I think that's really what it boils down to.
• 17:45
  Alicia: And I do think that if you can get to the person who is going along with it, that's where you can start.
• 17:51
  Alicia: It's not easy, it's a tough conversation to have.
• 17:54
  Alicia: But if if you're as a leader and a person in power, willing to get a little uncomfortable, that discomfort is a lot easier to tolerate than the discomfort that the person who's being mobbed is going through on the daily basis.
• 18:11
  Mary: And this is an excellent point because I think the motivation for the leader is very different than the other person that or the other people they get pulled into it because for the leader, it seems to be about power.
• 18:23
  Mary: For the bystanders and the contributors, it is more disempowerment that my power is taken away because I have to follow this person.
• 18:32
  Mary: And a question that I would be curious about is to those people, what does it feel like when you do this to this victim or this target?
• 18:40
  Mary: Um, but I think that's really important.
• 18:42
  Mary: And when I was leaving public education, there started to be more education about bullying.
• 18:48
  Mary: Because I think when I was a kid, it's like, oh, kids are just kids.
• 18:50
  Mary: And it's like, well, adults really didn't know all of the ins and outs.
• 18:54
  Mary: I was bullied mercilessly by a group when I was in high school.
• 18:58
  Mary: And so I think we started to focus more on what do we do with the bystanders?
• 19:02
  Mary: But there's a really famous research study, and I, or it's it's a story, I forget exactly the details, but a woman was being sexually assaulted on the sidewalk, and there was a high rise, and people saw it, and everyone assumed someone else was gonna call 911.
• 19:18
  Mary: And so that's where I think you're exactly right.
• 19:21
  Mary: We have to, that's our point to infiltrate.
• 19:24
  Mary: So if let's say somebody's listening to this, and right now they're like, they realize, oh my God, I'm in the middle of this.
• 19:31
  Mary: Like I've been, because I don't think we're gonna change the leader.
• 19:34
  Mary: That would be very difficult.
• 19:35
  Mary: So we have to look at how do we change this interaction, this shrinking, this fear.
• 19:42
  Mary: What are some ideas you have if someone knows that they have a kid in this situation, they're in this situation?
• 19:48
  Mary: What are some places you would have people start?
• 19:50
  Alicia: Yeah, great question.
• 19:52
  Alicia: Um, and I've heard that there's another example similar to the sexual assault one where, you know, everybody there is, and it's in my book about a waiting room, and and it was like a scientific study.
• 20:02
  Alicia: They had cameras, and every time a bell rang, everybody that was in the waiting room stood up.
• 20:07
  Alicia: And everybody was in on it except for the person, someone's like handed a camera, if you remember that.
• 20:11
  Alicia: And so all of a sudden, after like the fifth bell, that person stands up too, because they felt like they were supposed to.
• 20:19
  Alicia: Yes.
• 20:19
  Alicia: So that's kind of the inverse of what you just described.
• 20:21
  Alicia: So you're exactly right.
• 20:23
  Alicia: That's where we start.
• 20:24
  Alicia: I think I think I go back to naming it because I think at some point that it just has to feel wrong.
• 20:30
  Alicia: You brought up the word bullying, and I think it's important that we dial into that.
• 20:34
  Alicia: We as a society, there's been so much about bullying and don't bully.
• 20:39
  Alicia: And you think our, as parents, as youth, you think of bullying as someone that is weaker and that is visible and they name call, like that's kind of what our visual is of bullying.
• 20:54
  Alicia: Call it by what's been perpetuated in the movies, and that is what we think.
• 21:00
  Alicia: So when you when you call that person into your office and you say, look, you know, you I I hear you've been bullying somebody.
• 21:08
  Alicia: I'm not bullied.
• 21:10
  Alicia: You call their parents, my kid's not a bully.
• 21:13
  Alicia: There's a strong reaction, right?
• 21:15
  Alicia: There's a super strong reaction.
• 21:17
  Alicia: We need to get that reaction with mobbing.
• 21:20
  Alicia: And I think that's how you're gonna get to the bystanders because then that at that point, then the parents are gonna say, no, don't mob.
• 21:28
  Alicia: Like that's so-and-so's problem with this person, not yours.
• 21:32
  Alicia: You know, and then you start to get some power, I believe.
• 21:35
  Alicia: How the administrator handles it is saying, you know, I know that it's between Queen B and this person, but you do know that we have a mobbing policy now.
• 21:45
  Alicia: And by you doing this, you're being complicit.
• 21:48
  Alicia: And you know that there's consequences for you, too.
• 21:51
  Alicia: Full stop.
• 21:54
  Alicia: And I guarantee you that that takes notice.
• 21:57
  Alicia: Um, one one of my daughter's And she had been a good friend since her freshman year in high school.
• 22:03
  Alicia: And she same thing one day to the next, just no reason stopped talking to her.
• 22:07
  Alicia: I mean, when I say stop talking, like dead to me.
• 22:10
  Alicia: Had every class together, like no, no, no, she still doesn't know what.
• 22:15
  Alicia: And as it's been told now, they went on a religious retreat their senior year as like leaders.
• 22:23
  Alicia: They were leading, it was Catholic school.
• 22:24
  Alicia: And um, they were talking there, everything was fine there because they were outside of that bubble, the school bubble, and they had to.
• 22:31
  Alicia: So then they go back and they kind of had this conversation, they had this moment, and they go back to the school and it goes back to normal.
• 22:38
  Alicia: And as it's been told by someone that's now been kind of got out of the group, that girl when she came out of the retreat said, Man, I really, I really like her.
• 22:52
  Alicia: Like we gotta stop.
• 22:54
  Alicia: And Queen B didn't allow it.
• 22:57
  Alicia: Wow.
• 22:58
  Alicia: So you know, it's a shame that the the people that were running that retreat, if you name if you have it and you name it and you spot it, and you're really watching things, it's so easy to see, and they should have noticed it.
• 23:16
  Alicia: Like these girls were super good friends here, and now literally six hours later, they won't even say hello to each other.
• 23:24
  Alicia: What is going on?
• 23:25
  Alicia: And then call her in and say, What's going on?
• 23:29
  Alicia: You know, we have this as a society, we don't want to get involved or whatever.
• 23:33
  Alicia: But I mean, somebody that's not as strong as my daughter, it will commit suicide because of it.
• 23:37
  Alicia: People do.
• 23:38
  Mary: Yeah.
• 23:39
  Mary: Yeah, it's true.
• 23:40
  Mary: And I really feel like women understand, they really do understand.
• 23:45
  Mary: So I think I feel like like when there's training or when you're writing a book, it's almost like we have to, I don't how do I want to describe this?
• 23:55
  Mary: I feel like when males see it, they they get it.
• 23:58
  Mary: They're like, oh yeah, that's like what girls do.
• 24:01
  Mary: And even if they contribute, it's more of this sort of one degree or two degrees removed.
• 24:08
  Mary: They're just like, oh, Janet doesn't like Susie.
• 24:11
  Mary: And so I'm just kind of like not allowed to talk to her.
• 24:14
  Mary: So I'm just going along with it.
• 24:15
  Mary: But there's none of that emotional fear.
• 24:17
  Mary: It's more just like shrugging, like, I don't really get this, but this is what girls do.
• 24:22
  Mary: Right.
• 24:22
  Alicia: Exactly.
• 24:23
  Alicia: Yeah.
• 24:23
  Alicia: And I don't know why I was told not to talk to you.
• 24:26
  Alicia: We don't talk to you anymore.
• 24:27
  Alicia: They believed whatever lie the Queen Bee said.
• 24:30
  Alicia: And that's it.
• 24:31
  Alicia: Until it starts to hit their, you know, until the victim, I'm gonna call the victim, you know, starts to say stuff, you know, and that that becomes a problem.
• 24:41
  Alicia: I'll never forget.
• 24:41
  Alicia: At one point, I mean, this went on for like over a year for my daughter.
• 24:44
  Alicia: And at one point, I was like, just unfollow everybody on Instagram.
• 24:48
  Alicia: Make like remove them as your file, like just really, you know, just really disassociate.
• 24:55
  Alicia: She did, and I guess it was noticed.
• 24:57
  Alicia: And so then it was like, hey, did you hear she unfollowed me like in class?
• 25:02
  Alicia: And it was just, and by the fourth or the fifth day, and this was a boy doing it.
• 25:06
  Alicia: And, you know, I just was like, look, at some point, she's got to be able to be in class and focus on class.
• 25:13
  Alicia: Like, this is not okay.
• 25:15
  Alicia: So at that point, I I said something to um, I don't know, somebody at the school.
• 25:20
  Alicia: And they called him in and then, you know, just leave her alone.
• 25:22
  Alicia: And at that point, it was like, now, you know, she, why didn't you go tell?
• 25:25
  Alicia: And, you know, as opposed to not just leave her alone, just be like, you don't taunt somebody in class because they unfollowed you.
• 25:33
  Alicia: What did you like?
• 25:34
  Alicia: There's no accountability placed where it needs to place.
• 25:37
  Alicia: And I believe that it's much easier to have the person who's being who's the victim, because they're usually a high achiever, because they're usually not a troublemaker, it's easier just to tell them to just rise above it than it is to really deal with the problem.
• 25:54
  Mary: Yeah.
• 25:54
  Mary: And that's and and I think it's important for for young people the whole way up to whomever is in the workplace to know that it's not uncommon.
• 26:06
  Mary: And you said you reached out to get help.
• 26:08
  Mary: I did the same thing.
• 26:09
  Mary: I went to a therapist because I'm like, I'm losing my mind.
• 26:12
  Mary: And she said, You have PTSD.
• 26:14
  Mary: I'm like, I do not.
• 26:15
  Mary: She goes, You totally do.
• 26:16
  Mary: And I'm as a therapist, I have I don't have PTSD.
• 26:19
  Mary: She said, You don't understand how serious this is.
• 26:21
  Mary: And there were other things.
• 26:22
  Mary: It wasn't just the mobbing.
• 26:24
  Mary: But what happened was I got FMLA so that I could have a break.
• 26:30
  Mary: And I think as women, again, we can think, oh, that's weak, or I should be able to stand up to this.
• 26:35
  Mary: And I think we have to normalize that.
• 26:38
  Mary: Believe what you feel because we talk ourselves out of it.
• 26:41
  Mary: Like you said it earlier, I would never do that.
• 26:44
  Mary: I this has to be a mistake.
• 26:45
  Mary: I must be misreading it.
• 26:47
  Mary: And we have to believe our gut and take the steps that we need to get support.
• 26:54
  Mary: And if that means that, you know, you get FMLA and you have you don't have to explain that.
• 27:00
  Mary: You don't have to say what it is.
• 27:01
  Mary: And that way, when you really need that mental break, you can get it.
• 27:06
  Alicia: I mean, that's a great point.
• 27:07
  Alicia: I'd never even thought about that being an option to tell people because the reality is, I mean, it that break would have been nice, you know.
• 27:15
  Alicia: So I think that's that is really that's a powerful piece of advice.
• 27:19
  Alicia: It is PTSD.
• 27:20
  Alicia: It's so funny.
• 27:21
  Alicia: I interviewed, I mean, I've interviewed so many people.
• 27:24
  Alicia: And I interviewed a woman about two weeks ago that, you know, she had relocated her family for a job.
• 27:28
  Alicia: She got mobbed, had to relocate back on their own dime.
• 27:31
  Alicia: And this was, she was fresh out.
• 27:33
  Alicia: It was like a year after this happened.
• 27:35
  Alicia: And I, it was, you could see her PTSD, even though she's in her new job, but she was almost reassuring me that she was really good at her job.
• 27:46
  Mary: Yeah.
• 27:46
  Alicia: And it was, you know, and and and and you know, somebody that used to work for me, they they they wanted to work for me again when I moved back.
• 27:53
  Alicia: And and I'm like, I don't doubt it.
• 27:54
  Alicia: You're a great person, you know.
• 27:55
  Alicia: And you find I found myself like just, you know, making sure that she felt the love because I get it.
• 28:00
  Alicia: You feel like something's wrong with you.
• 28:02
  Alicia: And then you carry that through into every experience.
• 28:06
  Alicia: And, you know, my hope, I think we talked about my daughter's movement to college now.
• 28:09
  Alicia: And I know that she's kind of guarded as she goes into these new relationships because she's worried about, you know, this happening again.
• 28:18
  Alicia: And unfortunately, you know, the world is a cruel place.
• 28:21
  Alicia: But um, hopefully now she's built the resilience to be able to deal with it and and continue to deal with it.
• 28:27
  Alicia: But the difference with this is if it's happening in a classroom or a, you know, or a job, like that's not okay.
• 28:35
  Alicia: But if it happens, you know, I hate to say this, but on the playground, you know, or you know, at the at the city park, you know, look, there's not much that, you know, this, but um, you can't arrest people for this.
• 28:46
  Alicia: But, you know, when it's happening in a place where the team dynamic is how the engine runs, yeah, think about it.
• 28:53
  Alicia: In classes, even as young as elementary school, they're doing group projects now.
• 28:58
  Alicia: And that was a really that was where you really saw the mobbing in action at uh with my daughter, people that she was normally in groups with to work together, you know, not making eye contact, things like that.
• 29:12
  Alicia: How does a teacher not notice that?
• 29:14
  Alicia: So at a small school.
• 29:16
  Mary: Yeah, they do.
• 29:16
  Mary: And it's, you know, it's it's kind of along the same lines as the bystander.
• 29:20
  Mary: Like it's easier to just kind of like, oh, it's probably not that bad.
• 29:23
  Mary: But I mean, how great that she has you.
• 29:26
  Mary: And now you're basically championing this whole thing to the point that her brother is, you know, by just being around it, he's getting that education, which is so cool.
• 29:37
  Alicia: And she's on on her way to her psychology degree, and she has co-written the book with me.
• 29:43
  Alicia: And um, and so yeah, I mean, I think it's great.
• 29:46
  Alicia: And, you know, I think we can champion it in different ways.
• 29:49
  Alicia: Um, so that, you know, I just I love the name of your podcast.
• 29:53
  Alicia: So no shrinking violet, so that people just don't don't shrink.
• 29:57
  Alicia: And and it's exactly what you talk about in your in your books and everything, just about the surroundings and how that can completely shape the trajectory for how people just live.
• 30:07
  Alicia: And it's um, you know, I think as humans, if we don't realize that, the impact, man, at some point it's getting worse with social media, and we got to dial it down a little bit because it's getting bad out there.
• 30:21
  Mary: Yeah.
• 30:21
  Mary: And it's similar to abuse, and we I we don't need to go down this road, but that starts very subtly.
• 30:26
  Mary: And I think with some of this stuff, the mobbing, it starts with just a look like, oh, nice skirt, or oh, that's a nice outfit.
• 30:33
  Mary: And it's all in that tone of voice that girls do so well.
• 30:37
  Mary: So well.
• 30:38
  Mary: So, okay, this is not a political show, but I I really need to bring this up.
• 30:43
  Mary: There is an there is an example set how we treat people.
• 30:47
  Mary: And I feel like right now in the United States, there is a lot of attention given to behavior that is teaching fear, is teaching stay quiet.
• 30:58
  Mary: Are you seeing any any kind of blowback from that?
• 31:02
  Mary: Are you seeing anything different?
• 31:04
  Mary: Because we sort of now have this.
• 31:07
  Mary: Um, there's not a lot of uh, I'm just gonna say there's not a lot of democracy in a sense.
• 31:13
  Mary: You know, it's very much about we're using fear to mold people to do what we want.
• 31:20
  Alicia: Right.
• 31:20
  Alicia: So, you know, it's interesting because I think that, although now I think there's there's the biggest light on that.
• 31:29
  Alicia: Um, but I'll give you a story.
• 31:31
  Alicia: Um, because you told me that your your listeners like stories.
• 31:35
  Alicia: Back in, I forgot what year it was, I think maybe 2020.
• 31:39
  Alicia: Um, you know, you're on these group chats with all the parents in your class.
• 31:43
  Alicia: And, you know, obviously 2020 was was a year on many fronts, right?
• 31:48
  Alicia: And I remember on that group chat, which is supposed to be, you know, and especially then, like when all the kids were virtual, homework and this and that, and who got this, or you know, whatever, help the parents trying to support their kids.
• 32:00
  Alicia: And at the time, my son was in, I want to say like first grade or kindergarten or something, you know, so it's it was tiny.
• 32:05
  Alicia: And so um ironically, there became a big fight on that.
• 32:10
  Alicia: And there was between masks and no masks, and you know, um, you know, voting for Biden or voting for Trump, and and both sides were just as nasty.
• 32:22
  Alicia: Both sides.
• 32:24
  Alicia: So I'm not a political person in the least, and I'm not trying to sideswipe your question.
• 32:29
  Alicia: But the reason I say that is I'm not okay with anybody doing it because at the end of the day, you know, we that's what makes a democracy is your ability to choose.
• 32:41
  Alicia: And so we should be able to, in safe space, you know, not um just disparage people for having a different point of view.
• 32:51
  Alicia: Or, you know, so I, you know, do I think that that's contributing to mobbing?
• 32:56
  Alicia: No, not as much as mobbing, because on that group chat, if somebody disagree with me, like I don't have to listen, I can leave the chat.
• 33:04
  Alicia: To me, where I'm really trying to make the most impact is, you know, we're places where you just can't leave.
• 33:10
  Alicia: You know, if somebody's doing that and I can't vote, for example, then that's a different story.
• 33:14
  Alicia: But, you know, for the most part, I think we it's it's just we've just gotten so out of control that maybe it's this mobbing is getting so unchecked in society now, it's now escalated to this point, right?
• 33:27
  Alicia: Maybe.
• 33:28
  Alicia: So, so yeah, I just I think at some point everybody's just got to check themselves and and you know, and really just say, you know what, get back to humanity.
• 33:38
  Mary: Well, and being empowered in smaller spaces, like you have a good point.
• 33:42
  Mary: Like I got to the point where I resigned.
• 33:45
  Mary: You know, I could.
• 33:46
  Mary: Some people couldn't I mean they would be in a position, they can't do that financially.
• 33:49
  Mary: So I was, you know, was pretty blessed to be able to do that.
• 33:52
  Mary: But I think it does start small.
• 33:54
  Mary: It starts with, you know, what is happening in that smaller space.
• 33:58
  Mary: And I think dialogue, you know, being able to say, you know, here's what's happening.
• 34:05
  Mary: Let's call it out, let's empower people.
• 34:07
  Mary: What does it feel like when you get sucked into that?
• 34:09
  Mary: What does it feel like to be the target of that?
• 34:12
  Alicia: Right.
• 34:12
  Mary: And the more we communicate, the better.
• 34:14
  Mary: And yes, it's not one side versus another.
• 34:17
  Mary: It's just sometimes we see some situations.
• 34:19
  Mary: And I can say in the workplace, for me, it started with a supervisor and it started with that next person, with HR, not feeling like they wanted to address it, which I know your book is really looking at leaders, right?
• 34:34
  Mary: Which is that's what I think is important.
• 34:36
  Mary: That you're not, I think it will support people that might have experienced it to feel seen, but you're really looking at, okay, you have a position of power.
• 34:46
  Mary: Here's what you need to know to address it.
• 34:49
  Mary: Like, yeah.
• 34:50
  Alicia: Oh, absolutely.
• 34:51
  Alicia: And I actually just met with somebody this morning that um she's gonna give me some data for the book, but she really focuses on the victims and giving them the tools, which is great.
• 35:01
  Alicia: I'm focused on the leaders because if we don't, it's just getting worse, to your point.
• 35:06
  Alicia: Just getting worse in schools that are starting younger and younger.
• 35:09
  Alicia: And so, you know, I'm really trying to focus on leaders.
• 35:12
  Alicia: If leaders either don't know what to do with it, don't care, or are participating in it, then it's not gonna change, right?
• 35:21
  Alicia: Because that that feeling of fear that makes the bystanders, kind of going back to that, yeah, feel like they don't have a choice, then you know, then it's never, it's never gonna get solved, unfortunately.
• 35:34
  Alicia: So, and it starts with having a tough conversation uh with people and just being able to, you know, sit down and respectfully have a conversation.
• 35:42
  Mary: So well, I think you're doing something really important.
• 35:45
  Mary: And I did not know the term till I read your, you know, your your message to me.
• 35:51
  Mary: So I'm I'm glad I have the term now.
• 35:53
  Mary: And it just, you know, it brought back memories, it brought back a lot of things.
• 35:57
  Mary: And I think being able to shine a light on it, again, to for people to know that a lot of times we don't talk about it.
• 36:04
  Mary: We are ruled by shame often, but it's not shameful to be a target.
• 36:09
  Mary: It's power comes from using your voice and finding safe spaces and doing what you know you need to do.
• 36:16
  Mary: If you are not, if you don't have an advocate or you don't know how to get that advocate quite yet, I think being able to have that voice is important.
• 36:24
  Mary: So share again the name of your book.
• 36:27
  Mary: And if you, I don't know if you know yet when it will be published and what else do you do and where people can find you.
• 36:32
  Mary: I will put all your info in my show notes.
• 36:35
  Alicia: Oh, wonderful.
• 36:36
  Alicia: So the name of the book is Stop the Mobbing.
• 36:38
  Alicia: It should be coming out later this year.
• 36:40
  Alicia: Um, so I'm excited to get it out the door because I have a lot of people have been asking me about it, which I'm excited.
• 36:45
  Alicia: Um, so my company is Kindethos, E-T-H-O-S.
• 36:50
  Alicia: Um, it was, it was born my marketing company is brand ethos.
• 36:54
  Alicia: Um, but we started Kind Ethos.
• 36:56
  Alicia: So the best way is find us on Instagram or LinkedIn or Kindethos.com, send us a message.
• 37:03
  Alicia: Normally on social media is the fastest way.
• 37:05
  Alicia: We are, in addition to me writing the book, I have a team and we consult with leaders, um, with teams on the dynamics.
• 37:13
  Alicia: And it's more than just about mobbing, it's also about just creating a healthy work culture, having tough conversations.
• 37:19
  Alicia: You know, we're as we promote the next generation of leaders, that ability to give feedback in a respectful, constructive, and loving way and that work around people, which can look like mobbing when you start working around people.
• 37:32
  Alicia: That's how men do it, by the way.
• 37:33
  Alicia: Um, that that ability to do that is is is the consulting practice.
• 37:38
  Alicia: We have a very rigorous process, and um, and we're excited to continue to work with companies to make the change.
• 37:43
  Mary: So that's great.
• 37:45
  Mary: I love the name.
• 37:46
  Mary: Kind Ethan.
• 37:46
  Mary: Thank you.
• 37:47
  Mary: That's great.
• 37:48
  Mary: Thank you.
• 37:48
  Mary: Well, thank you so much for being here today, Alicia.
• 37:51
  Mary: I appreciate it.
• 37:52
  Mary: Thank you very much, and good luck to you.
• 37:54
  Mary: Thank you.
• 37:54
  Mary: And I want to thank everyone for listening.
• 37:56
  Mary: If this episode brought to mind someone who might benefit from our discussion today, please share this with them.
• 38:02
  Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.