Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / BODY BAGS WITH JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN " From The Black Dahlia to Ed Gein, The Five of Dismemberment!

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BODY BAGS WITH JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN " From The Black Dahlia to Ed Gein, The Five of Dismemberment! · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:01
Speaker 1: Quality times. But Joseph Scott More, I'm not.
0:07
Speaker 2: By any means the brightest guy in the world. I
0:10
Speaker 2: think that a lot of it, Any knowledge that I
0:13
Speaker 2: have that I've been blessed with, comes from repetition and
0:17
Speaker 2: being around it. What I do you know for so long,
0:21
Speaker 2: you know, you just kind of absorb it after a while.
0:24
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that you're that you're intuitively makes sense there,
0:30
Speaker 2: intuitively intelligent. It just means that you can absorb information.
0:36
Speaker 2: And my my area is very specific, okay, in death investigation,
0:42
Speaker 2: And granted there are all kinds of subcategories within death investigation,
0:47
Speaker 2: but for me, it always has been the best way
0:52
Speaker 2: to learn things is to compartmentalize them, and I picked
0:55
Speaker 2: them up. I was a big advocate when I was
0:57
Speaker 2: an undergraduate in college of using index cards to run
1:01
Speaker 2: through before I would do testing and that sort of thing.
1:04
Speaker 2: I love that because it really made me learn the information.
1:08
Speaker 2: But you know, that kind of breaking down of things
1:15
Speaker 2: lending itself to absorption of knowledge. It's certainly a way
1:22
Speaker 2: that we work in the Morgue. We don't just essentially
1:26
Speaker 2: do all of our dissections at one time. We take
1:31
Speaker 2: it peace by peace and learning from each individual element
1:39
Speaker 2: of the human body what we can to try to
1:42
Speaker 2: arrive at a cause and ultimately a manner of death.
1:48
Speaker 2: But you know, there are people out there, and we've
1:51
Speaker 2: talked about them on the show, who do their own
1:57
Speaker 2: compartmentalizing of human remains. They break them down into various
2:02
Speaker 2: elements and also for various reasons, which we're going to
2:07
Speaker 2: discuss today. Today we're going to talk about the five
2:13
Speaker 2: the five types of dismemberment that we come across in
2:18
Speaker 2: the field in forensic science, in medical legal debt investigation.
2:25
Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bats and Dave,
2:32
Speaker 2: you know you can verify this. I had already mentioned
2:37
Speaker 2: to you that I wanted to do this going into
2:41
Speaker 2: the end of the year, that because we've talked so
2:43
Speaker 2: much about dismemberment, I kind of wanted to cap this
2:47
Speaker 2: thing off relative to what we're trying to do when
2:52
Speaker 2: we bring these cases, and just to go ahead and
2:55
Speaker 2: get this out of the way. I do, in fact
2:57
Speaker 2: believe that there is an uptick in the number of
2:59
Speaker 2: dismemberments that are covered in the news. I can't scientifically
3:03
Speaker 2: verify that. Hopefully I can, maybe I can get my
3:06
Speaker 2: graduate assistant on that and start collecting some data. But
3:11
Speaker 2: people dismember for all different reasons. But the reason I'm
3:15
Speaker 2: saying to you I need you to validate upfront that
3:18
Speaker 2: I had already said this to you maybe a week
3:21
Speaker 2: or so back, that I wanted to do this episode
3:24
Speaker 2: Body Bags, because just yesterday, without any prior knowledge, there
3:30
Speaker 2: has been an article that has dropped that where it
3:36
Speaker 2: is that, I think it was in the Post, I'm
3:38
Speaker 2: not sure. I think it was in the Post and
3:39
Speaker 2: maybe the Daily Daily Mail, Elie Times, where they are
3:45
Speaker 2: now saying that there is a connection between the Black
3:50
Speaker 2: Dahlia and the Zodiac Killer. Now I'm not here to,
3:55
Speaker 2: you know, to talk about those cases necessarily, particularly the
4:00
Speaker 2: Zodiac because I don't know that that'll ever be solved,
4:04
Speaker 2: and certainly at this distance in time, I don't know
4:08
Speaker 2: that the Black Dahlia case, but it's one of the
4:10
Speaker 2: first cases I think that many people ever heard about
4:14
Speaker 2: where there was and really made a big splash where
4:18
Speaker 2: there was a dismemberment. Well, and it was a very
4:20
Speaker 2: particular kind of dismemberment.
4:22
Speaker 3: In the case of Elizabeth Short, who was the Black Dahlia.
4:25
Speaker 3: If you remember Joe, this case, we have on this program,
4:31
Speaker 3: talked about how b roll footage for television and pictures
4:36
Speaker 3: actually means a lot about getting coverage for a case.
4:40
Speaker 3: There are always there are always cases. I don't want
4:43
Speaker 3: to knock any missing person's case or death or anything
4:48
Speaker 3: like that, but I'll give you an example, John b
4:51
Speaker 3: and a Ramsey. She had Granted, she's a child who
4:55
Speaker 3: is found dead in her own home. They thought she
4:58
Speaker 3: was kidding. I mean that whole story. But the reason
5:01
Speaker 3: it caught the attention of the world was all the
5:03
Speaker 3: b roll video that was shown every time they mentioned
5:06
Speaker 3: the case. Here we go, we got the girl on stage.
5:09
Speaker 3: We've got her dancing, We've got her you know, trust up,
5:11
Speaker 3: wearing makeup and all that at five and six years old.
5:14
Speaker 3: And as newspeople cover stories, they look for that. They
5:18
Speaker 3: look for things that will make their story stand out,
5:21
Speaker 3: whether it's the producer trying to make your leg up
5:23
Speaker 3: on the next gig or whatever, and so that actually
5:26
Speaker 3: matters in the coverage that happens, especially when a story
5:29
Speaker 3: is static, meaning there's no new information coming out. In
5:32
Speaker 3: the case of Elizabeth Short, the very first time I
5:35
Speaker 3: ever saw the story, Joe, it was photos, pictures taking
5:40
Speaker 3: at the scene of this dismembered woman and how her
5:44
Speaker 3: body was positioned in pieces, and the description of how
5:49
Speaker 3: her body was found and people were walking you know,
5:53
Speaker 3: you are talking about in the post World War era
5:56
Speaker 3: of it was after World War two.
5:58
Speaker 2: Right, forty yeah, it was forty second.
6:03
Speaker 3: But Elizabeth short her she was called the Black Dahlia
6:06
Speaker 3: because she was seen by a woman walking with her
6:11
Speaker 3: child and a stroller and by others before the police
6:16
Speaker 3: were ever called. And you had a newsperson with his
6:20
Speaker 3: camera taking photos as police arrived on the scene.
6:24
Speaker 2: Yep.
6:25
Speaker 3: So before any official photos were taken of this victim,
6:30
Speaker 3: they were already produced. They were already going through the film,
6:33
Speaker 3: you know, and getting it on the paper the next day.
6:36
Speaker 3: So that story gained a lot of momentum because of
6:41
Speaker 3: the physical description and the pictures that fit that. Because
6:44
Speaker 3: no matter what you say, a body that is dismembered
6:49
Speaker 3: and is sitting in grass for all to see is
6:52
Speaker 3: a shocking thing, no matter who you are or where
6:55
Speaker 3: you are. It's not something we ever expect to see
6:58
Speaker 3: in our life.
6:59
Speaker 2: No, it's not. And can you imagine this, this mother
7:02
Speaker 2: pushing you know, her her baby down the street, and
7:06
Speaker 2: this is kind of a and this is a weird
7:07
Speaker 2: thing to say now, an undeveloped area of Los Angeles.
7:12
Speaker 2: It was like and when you take a look, you
7:15
Speaker 2: can actually see where I'm not going to say that
7:19
Speaker 2: things had been you know, that things had been stubbed,
7:22
Speaker 2: you know, ready to build a house over them, relative
7:24
Speaker 2: to plumbing and all that, but it looked like that.
7:27
Speaker 2: You could tell where sidewalks had been poured and and
7:30
Speaker 2: so forth and so on. And her body is laying
7:32
Speaker 2: that out there, and she, Elizabeth Short, had been bisected
7:37
Speaker 2: and bisected here obviously by too. And again this goes
7:43
Speaker 2: to the the process of dismemberment. She's cut across it
7:48
Speaker 2: if you just think about it in the well, if
7:52
Speaker 2: she's standing up, she's cut in the horizontal plane or
7:55
Speaker 2: you know, around her equator of her body. Okay, and so,
8:01
Speaker 2: and when you see her, her arms are actually bent
8:05
Speaker 2: at the elbow and over her head, palms up. Her
8:09
Speaker 2: legs are spread, which I've actually seen that before in
8:15
Speaker 2: a series of serial killings where the legs were always
8:18
Speaker 2: spread apart. It's like it's like a humiliation kind of
8:22
Speaker 2: thing that's going on, and you know, you're literally laid
8:26
Speaker 2: bare before the world and in the margins the margins
8:30
Speaker 2: of the incisions were very very neat what do you
8:33
Speaker 2: mean margins? The margins like where the dissection actually took place.
8:39
Speaker 2: So when she's cut in this kind of equatorial position
8:44
Speaker 2: around her midline, there's not like, you know, how we'll
8:48
Speaker 2: get these cases and we'll talk about them. It's like,
8:51
Speaker 2: you know, if somebody had done this like in a fever,
8:53
Speaker 2: they were using all manner of tools. This was very specific,
8:56
Speaker 2: all right, And this this goes to someone that that
9:00
Speaker 2: you know, I hate to use the term training, but
9:03
Speaker 2: it was someone that had a certain level of comfort
9:06
Speaker 2: and probably privacy, and most important time, very little blood
9:11
Speaker 2: left in the body, so that gives you an indication
9:13
Speaker 2: the body had probably been drained. And here's something else.
9:17
Speaker 2: Did you know that her bowels were actually neatly tucked
9:22
Speaker 2: beneath her body as she was laid out? I don't know, right, yeah,
9:29
Speaker 2: but when you look at her body down the long axis,
9:32
Speaker 2: so if we're standing at the top of her head,
9:34
Speaker 2: looking down the long axis from the top of her
9:37
Speaker 2: head to her feet, did you know that the body
9:40
Speaker 2: is actually offset, which is really weird, like the lower.
9:44
Speaker 1: To I'm sorry, it's on purpose.
9:46
Speaker 2: I don't know. You went to the person that did this,
9:50
Speaker 2: went to so much trouble to do a need incision
9:54
Speaker 2: or a bisection, actually taking the body completely apart, but
9:58
Speaker 2: yet you don't take the time to align the body.
10:02
Speaker 2: The body is kind of offset. Now you know, I'm
10:05
Speaker 2: not caring with a c stark out here. I can't
10:07
Speaker 2: sit here and as a forensic psychologist, which I ain't
10:12
Speaker 2: and don't want to be, I can't sit here and
10:15
Speaker 2: tell you what kind of profile this person had. However,
10:17
Speaker 2: I can tell you that the body is obviously askew
10:20
Speaker 2: the other thing, and I find this fascinating. We'll talk
10:24
Speaker 2: about movies in just a second, but when you think
10:26
Speaker 2: about her body, I think about the Batman with Heath
10:33
Speaker 2: Ledger in it, because she actually had a smile cut
10:37
Speaker 2: into her face. Her face was actually was just so
10:43
Speaker 2: disfigured and it goes from the corner of her mouth
10:45
Speaker 2: up just turning up, and I swear, Dave, it looks
10:48
Speaker 2: just like the smile that Heath Ledger had in the
10:52
Speaker 2: Batman movie, which to me, in that canon of movies
10:55
Speaker 2: is probably the best. Heath Ledger was incredible as a joker,
10:58
Speaker 2: and I think very disturbing, but you know, just that
11:01
Speaker 2: was carved into her face, and I wonder if if
11:06
Speaker 2: they got that idea and reflect that. You know, you
11:09
Speaker 2: and I talk about movies every now and then on
11:10
Speaker 2: the show. I got to tell you there was a
11:13
Speaker 2: movie that came out in two thousand and six which
11:17
Speaker 2: was directed by De Palma, and it was a complete
11:22
Speaker 2: dumpster fire. I cannot tell you how disappointed I was
11:25
Speaker 2: in that movie. I was really really hoping that it
11:28
Speaker 2: was going to be one of these things that really
11:30
Speaker 2: knocked our socks off, and it was a dumpster fire
11:34
Speaker 2: with really bad smell to it. I don't know how else.
11:37
Speaker 2: But interestingly enough, going back to the Zodiac connection, David Fincher,
11:43
Speaker 2: who did I think he did seven? He was slated
11:47
Speaker 2: to do that movie. He didn't do it. He's the
11:51
Speaker 2: one that winds up doing the Zodiac movie, which was fantastic,
11:55
Speaker 2: that had Jake Gillenhall in it, and that movie was
12:01
Speaker 2: was actually even though you didn't see like a slash
12:04
Speaker 2: or anything, it was quite terrifying.
12:06
Speaker 3: All right, now, Joe, what is happening now? And we
12:10
Speaker 3: did talk about this. You and I talked about the
12:11
Speaker 3: Black Dahlia story. Like last week and for there to
12:15
Speaker 3: be some movement on this story now this week and
12:19
Speaker 3: today it's all over. I'm surprised at a connection between
12:26
Speaker 3: the Zodiac, which is predominantly San Francisco, northern California exactly.
12:32
Speaker 3: You have, you know, the Black Dahlia, which is one
12:35
Speaker 3: murder case in southern California in the you know, in
12:38
Speaker 3: a neighborhood in the forties, residential neighborhood in the south
12:42
Speaker 3: part of Los Angeles. I guess I'm trying to figure
12:46
Speaker 3: out based on a number of things that have been
12:51
Speaker 3: said about the Black Dahlia case. There's a man who
12:54
Speaker 3: has written a book about his father, believing that his father,
12:57
Speaker 3: who was a surgeon, actually was the murderer. And he
13:01
Speaker 3: has this whole thing cooked up where his dad got
13:03
Speaker 3: her home and I say, just drain it over blood
13:07
Speaker 3: in the bathtub kind of thing.
13:10
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, And I actually went off. There's a tape
13:13
Speaker 2: of me on YouTube, I think, and I was on
13:15
Speaker 2: with Vinnie Politan on h l N years ago, and
13:20
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's the same guy, but I
13:22
Speaker 2: go off.
13:23
Speaker 1: I was.
13:23
Speaker 2: I was actually I did a phoner. I was nowhere
13:26
Speaker 2: and they said we want you to comment on this
13:28
Speaker 2: book that's just come out. I said, oh, I'll be glad.
13:31
Speaker 2: It was says, if you've got this much information. At
13:34
Speaker 2: that time, there were still a lot of family members
13:36
Speaker 2: that were alive. I guess there still are of Zodiac victims.
13:39
Speaker 2: If you've got this information, get an attorney, go to
13:43
Speaker 2: San Francisco, to the PD and these other associated and
13:47
Speaker 2: get in their face and say, I've got this information.
13:49
Speaker 2: What can you do with it? Was let's get some
13:51
Speaker 2: resolutions for this. It just seems so mercenary for me.
13:56
Speaker 2: Yeah about it, Yeah, because my daddy did it. And
14:00
Speaker 2: then of course I get these responses like, well he
14:02
Speaker 2: made an attempt to go to the chief of Police
14:04
Speaker 2: of San Francisco. Yeah, well nothing ever came of that,
14:08
Speaker 2: you know, because there was supposed to be DNA connectivity.
14:11
Speaker 2: But with this case, what they're saying now and again,
14:14
Speaker 2: this is another amateur sleuth that has come on to
14:17
Speaker 2: this thing. They're opining that this case in particular is
14:23
Speaker 2: connected to the Zodiac. And the one suspect is a
14:27
Speaker 2: guy that was a combat medic in World War two, okay,
14:33
Speaker 2: and that he had some disturbances and this sort of thing,
14:36
Speaker 2: and he had gotten into fights and was really unbalanced,
14:39
Speaker 2: and so he actually winds up changing his name because
14:43
Speaker 2: they were initially looking at him as a witness into
14:46
Speaker 2: Black Dahlia. And eventually he changes his name and bounces
14:49
Speaker 2: out of town right and abandons like his family and
14:52
Speaker 2: everything else. Well, he makes his way back to the
14:58
Speaker 2: Bay Area. I think in the early sixties. I might
15:01
Speaker 2: be way off here, but that's kind of how the
15:02
Speaker 2: story is going, makes contact I think with his daughter
15:07
Speaker 2: maybe again, I don't really know, and he essentially has
15:15
Speaker 2: gone off his nut apparently and involved himself somehow in
15:20
Speaker 2: these so called Zodiac killings. And I still don't know
15:23
Speaker 2: that there's substance proof that these kind of interlaced that
15:28
Speaker 2: what they have said or interlaced cases are actually connected.
15:32
Speaker 2: I don't know that there's ever been positive proof that
15:35
Speaker 2: that you know, that actually happened was.
15:37
Speaker 3: In the Zodiac, similar to Berkowitz, you know, shooting couples, and.
15:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was the elements of that. You had the
15:44
Speaker 2: one cab driver that was like, what's that area that's
15:47
Speaker 2: like really really ritzy in or used to be in
15:50
Speaker 2: in Is it spy Spyglass Hill or whatever? It's like
15:53
Speaker 2: a naghtor I can't remember that. I love Samrich, I
15:55
Speaker 2: used to love San Francisco. But he was shot. He Cabby,
16:00
Speaker 2: he was shot. He was a single that was shot
16:02
Speaker 2: there in his car and they had the lovers on
16:04
Speaker 2: lover Lane, the lover's lane. Then he varies and attacks
16:09
Speaker 2: this young couple out by lake with a knife, right,
16:12
Speaker 2: you know that sort of thing, kind of change. But
16:14
Speaker 2: with those cases there was this is a big standout
16:17
Speaker 2: to me. There was no dismemberment.
16:18
Speaker 3: This I was going to ask you, Yeah, I don't
16:20
Speaker 3: remember anything ever being And yet the Dahlia is a
16:23
Speaker 3: one off. You know, we don't have another case in
16:25
Speaker 3: southern California within that same time frame where anything like
16:30
Speaker 3: what happened with Elizabeth Short was reported as happening again.
16:33
Speaker 3: And somebody who would go to this great effort to
16:38
Speaker 3: present the body in such a way where the sharp
16:41
Speaker 3: where it wasn't an amateur or wasn't somebody who didn't
16:45
Speaker 3: know what they were doing cut up her body. Right,
16:47
Speaker 3: you were talking about how her body was positioned a
16:49
Speaker 3: little off center, but still the cutting was professional or experienced. Yes,
16:55
Speaker 3: straining of the blood was experienced. I mean, there was
16:58
Speaker 3: a lot going on with that one body. And it
17:01
Speaker 3: doesn't seem like people start at that level. It's like
17:05
Speaker 3: they grow into that level.
17:08
Speaker 2: Right, And a corpse is a corpse, you know, like
17:11
Speaker 2: if you can turn someone by your own hand into
17:15
Speaker 2: a corpse, in other words, kill them that body.
17:21
Speaker 1: That body.
17:21
Speaker 2: People love to throw the around, the term around objectification
17:25
Speaker 2: all the time, and they use it, I think incorrectly.
17:29
Speaker 2: This is truly the epitome of turning turning a person
17:34
Speaker 2: into a doll, if you will, and breaking that person
17:38
Speaker 2: apart by any means necessary. But it fits this case,
17:42
Speaker 2: does at least the black Dolue fits into one specific category.
17:46
Speaker 2: Some of the stuff I'm going to reveal might just
17:49
Speaker 2: shock you. I hate the wide question, but dismemberment is
18:09
Speaker 2: one of those things where you'll get that a lot.
18:13
Speaker 2: Why why why would? And I think that it's one
18:15
Speaker 2: of these things that people cannot take the measure of,
18:20
Speaker 2: Dave because they it's so foreign, because it's so grotesque
18:26
Speaker 2: and over the top. And you and I have spoken
18:29
Speaker 2: about this in the past where you know, I'll say it.
18:35
Speaker 2: It wasn't enough just to kill the person. You've got
18:38
Speaker 2: to go another step deeper into evil here. And so
18:43
Speaker 2: with that said, I felt that it was incumbent upon
18:47
Speaker 2: us to kind of to kind of talk about, you know,
18:50
Speaker 2: some of these some of these cases, and you know,
18:53
Speaker 2: the first the first stop along the tour here is
18:57
Speaker 2: something that's called defensive of dismemberment. And most of the
19:03
Speaker 2: time this is more of a this this is dismemberment
19:10
Speaker 2: is used. It has specific utility. In other words, you
19:15
Speaker 2: can't you cannot move the body. You have to do
19:20
Speaker 2: something after you have killed an individual, to fragment or
19:25
Speaker 2: to parse up or however you want to frame it. Uh,
19:31
Speaker 2: you have to break this body down into elements just
19:34
Speaker 2: to make it manageable. David. Some some of these cases,
19:37
Speaker 2: these people can be rather rotund because that's very difficult
19:42
Speaker 2: to manage. Or there's a reason they call it dead weight.
19:47
Speaker 2: And what's you know, really kind of ghastly about this.
19:50
Speaker 2: Dismemberment of a morbidly obese person is particularly nasty business.
19:59
Speaker 2: And there are a multiplicity of reasons why. But it
20:02
Speaker 2: just it takes it to a whole new level. But
20:06
Speaker 2: I think if I remember correctly, Dave, there was a
20:11
Speaker 2: case that you and I and it wasn't so much
20:15
Speaker 2: this case. It was out of Oklahoma. This case had
20:20
Speaker 2: anything to do with you had somebody that was morbidly obese.
20:26
Speaker 2: You had and you and I were both shocked by this.
20:29
Speaker 2: I remember when we laid this down, we had multiple
20:33
Speaker 2: people that were dissected.
20:34
Speaker 1: Dave. I know.
20:35
Speaker 3: And when you're talking about four men, Okay, immediately, I'm
20:41
Speaker 3: gonna be honest with you, that shocks me. And I
20:44
Speaker 3: don't think it should shock me anymore than any other
20:46
Speaker 3: group of four that were found dead and are pulled
20:48
Speaker 3: from a river. But Joe, the fact that we've got
20:51
Speaker 3: four men and they were all very young, and I
20:54
Speaker 3: mean we're talking twenty nine, thirty and thirty two. That
20:59
Speaker 3: just tells you a lot about the men who were killed,
21:04
Speaker 3: But it doesn't tell you a whole lot else. Show
21:07
Speaker 3: are police chief there at the time, his name of
21:10
Speaker 3: Joe Prentiss, and he actually said at a news conference
21:14
Speaker 3: all four bodies were dismembered before being placed in the river,
21:19
Speaker 3: and that is what caused difficulty in determining identities, and
21:23
Speaker 3: that's why it took so long. So do they know
21:27
Speaker 3: where they all killed at the same time, in the
21:30
Speaker 3: same place and then taken out in a job boat
21:33
Speaker 3: and tossed over the sidelight.
21:34
Speaker 2: Chum that's an excellent question, and there's not too much.
21:39
Speaker 2: You know, there's not a lot you know, in a river.
21:43
Speaker 2: River is going to act. You know, in some landlocked
21:46
Speaker 2: place like Oklahoma where this took place, river is going
21:50
Speaker 2: to primarily.
21:51
Speaker 1: Be used to.
21:53
Speaker 2: Disguise a body, all right, because there's not It's not
21:56
Speaker 2: like you're going to the Everglades or South Louisiana. You
21:58
Speaker 2: know where you got the swamp. Crawfish will feed on bodies.
22:02
Speaker 2: Most lakes, most ponds and creeks and rivers in that
22:08
Speaker 2: area of the country have got plenty of crawfish, and
22:12
Speaker 2: there might be as the body begins to soften, you
22:16
Speaker 2: can have other scavengers that might come along, like catfish.
22:22
Speaker 2: Probably to a certain degree. Other species might feed on bodies,
22:27
Speaker 2: but you're not going to have kind of the wholesale
22:31
Speaker 2: total disruption of the body. Now, the aquatic environment is
22:35
Speaker 2: going to break break these bits down quicker because the
22:39
Speaker 2: body is in fact dissected. If I'm not mistaken, was
22:44
Speaker 2: it in this particular case. I can't remember the the
22:48
Speaker 2: guy used tools in this and it seems like they
22:52
Speaker 2: were power tools. I'm not mistaken. And what had happened
22:55
Speaker 2: is the perpetrator in this case, coffees fell stealing from
23:00
Speaker 2: him and he owned like a junk yard or something
23:04
Speaker 2: like this. And what's really weird is these guys had
23:07
Speaker 2: showed up on bicycles to do this. That kind of
23:09
Speaker 2: stood out in my mind as what.
23:11
Speaker 3: It does because you're dealing with you know what, if
23:14
Speaker 3: you're twenty nine years old, thirty thirty two and you're
23:17
Speaker 3: riding a bicycle, Yeah, everybody does that when they're seven.
23:21
Speaker 3: Not when you're thirty, unless you're mountain biking or in
23:24
Speaker 3: a race for something. Unless you have you don't just
23:26
Speaker 3: tool around town or.
23:27
Speaker 2: If you live in London or New York, right, but
23:31
Speaker 2: not in rural Oklahoma, and I can't. And these guys
23:34
Speaker 2: were These guys were big guys, and you know, they
23:36
Speaker 2: were like outdoorsy kind of guys. A couple of them,
23:39
Speaker 2: they're they're they're they obviously used you know, the news
23:42
Speaker 2: media use these images of these subjects wearing like utility
23:47
Speaker 2: worker vests. These guys or like they were road crew.
23:50
Speaker 2: These guys had worked out, they were hard workers, you know,
23:54
Speaker 2: or worked, you know, worked in the real world. They
23:57
Speaker 2: both got those kind of farmer tans going on in
23:59
Speaker 2: this sort of thing. But apparently this guy thought that
24:02
Speaker 2: they were stealing from him. And you know, I remember
24:06
Speaker 2: after this guy facilitated this, and I remember telling you
24:09
Speaker 2: at the time, there's no telling what type of instruments
24:12
Speaker 2: this guy had because he ran he ran a junk yard,
24:16
Speaker 2: and you know, you if you're doing dealing with things
24:18
Speaker 2: like scrap metal, there's all kinds of ways to break
24:20
Speaker 2: up bodies. But this is going to be a defensive
24:24
Speaker 2: dismemberment because he's trying to put as much distance between
24:29
Speaker 2: himself and these bodies as he can. He's got to
24:32
Speaker 2: do something to dispose of them. When you begin to
24:35
Speaker 2: think about, you know, what am I going to do
24:38
Speaker 2: with with four grown men and their bodies. What's kind
24:42
Speaker 2: of odd about this is that even after this had done,
24:46
Speaker 2: he went to all the trouble to dissect the bodies.
24:48
Speaker 2: I guess he's sitting around wringing his hands, because he bolts.
24:51
Speaker 2: He hops in a car and drives off to Florida.
24:54
Speaker 2: At this point in time. Of course, they eventually catch
24:56
Speaker 2: this guy. But you know, one more point I'd like
25:00
Speaker 2: to make about this case is the fact that when
25:04
Speaker 2: they're trying to put these bodies back together, you've got
25:10
Speaker 2: four guys that probably all approximate the same size. And
25:15
Speaker 2: when you take four bodies and let's just say they're
25:18
Speaker 2: all bisected, okay, which just means cut in two. I
25:22
Speaker 2: think that there was probably more extensive cutting than that.
25:25
Speaker 2: You still have to put pieces together to make them match.
25:29
Speaker 2: And it's not like it's some kind of toy set
25:32
Speaker 2: where it's you insert slot B into slot A and
25:35
Speaker 2: you've got a connection with this piece. It's not like
25:38
Speaker 2: that because you're having to scientifically connect them together, which
25:43
Speaker 2: can be problematic. But in this case, you've got an
25:47
Speaker 2: individual that used the facility of his location in order
25:53
Speaker 2: to make this happen and try to get as much
25:57
Speaker 2: distance between him and the bodies. It's because many people
26:02
Speaker 2: will essentially kill people and not put distance between themselves
26:06
Speaker 2: and leave them around. This guy made an effort to
26:09
Speaker 2: get these bodies away from him, and it's still the
26:12
Speaker 2: wheel still came off, Dave.
26:13
Speaker 3: You know interesting you use that term because they never
26:18
Speaker 3: located the bicycles that these four men took out of
26:21
Speaker 3: the house. You know, they'd leave one of the family
26:23
Speaker 3: member's homes and all four of these adult men go
26:28
Speaker 3: tooling at nine o'clock at night. Down the road, they
26:30
Speaker 3: end up at Joseph Kennedy salvageyard, where they're up to
26:33
Speaker 3: no good. And by the way, police got this information
26:36
Speaker 3: from a fifth man who was invited onto the crime spree,
26:41
Speaker 3: and he's the one that went to police. I don't
26:43
Speaker 3: know if he came to them after they went missing,
26:46
Speaker 3: before the bodies were found, don't know, but they did
26:48
Speaker 3: have an insider that came up and said, hey, they
26:51
Speaker 3: were stealing stuff and I was invited, but I didn't
26:53
Speaker 3: go or I'd have been in there with them. And
26:56
Speaker 3: that's how they were able to tie this together. Because
26:58
Speaker 3: if you just find body parts floating in a river,
27:01
Speaker 3: you know, that's a that's a tough sell. And you
27:04
Speaker 3: mentioned Kennedy. Joseph Kennedy takes off, you know, for Daytona, Florida,
27:07
Speaker 3: which is where they got him. And they rested him
27:10
Speaker 3: there in Daytona, Florida, and had to a Daytona beach
27:13
Speaker 3: and had to actually extradute him back to Oklahoma where
27:17
Speaker 3: he was formerly charged with four counts of first degree murder.
27:22
Speaker 3: And they never I don't think they ever found the
27:24
Speaker 3: gun that he shot them first. Okay, he kills them
27:27
Speaker 3: with a gun. Then he dismembers them.
27:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you can't. What's he going to do. He's
27:32
Speaker 2: going to try to knock each one of these guys
27:34
Speaker 2: in the head with a ball pen hair. You have
27:36
Speaker 2: to do this quickly in order to knock these guys
27:39
Speaker 2: down and take them by surprise. And you know that,
27:43
Speaker 2: you know that that goes into the elements of what
27:46
Speaker 2: would be the motivation. Because I don't know about you,
27:49
Speaker 2: but I've had things stolen from me and I do
27:53
Speaker 2: have rage. I'm sure you've had rage. When you've had
27:56
Speaker 2: things that have stolen from you, you have anger it,
28:00
Speaker 2: you know, on the surface, it does make you, I think, aggressive,
28:05
Speaker 2: But it's not the same as the second type of dismemberment,
28:10
Speaker 2: which is actually referred to as aggressive dismemberment. Now, you know,
28:16
Speaker 2: how do we kind of break this down with aggressive dismemberment,
28:20
Speaker 2: which is number two along our continuum here of dismemberments.
28:26
Speaker 2: It's the second most common. It's most of the time
28:30
Speaker 2: it is there is a little fire that's burning within
28:35
Speaker 2: somebody where they are angry over probably a protracted period
28:42
Speaker 2: of time. They might see themselves as failure. They might
28:48
Speaker 2: not want to be held accountable for something horrific that
28:53
Speaker 2: they have done. And I say horrific, that's not the
28:57
Speaker 2: correct word. Let's just say that. In the case of
29:02
Speaker 2: Chandler Halderson out of Wisconsin, his whole thing was he
29:07
Speaker 2: had been lying to both his mom and dad, Dave
29:11
Speaker 2: for a protracted period of time, deceiving them, you know,
29:14
Speaker 2: trying to you know, trying to make them think that
29:17
Speaker 2: he was out in the job market, that he's working,
29:20
Speaker 2: and they're confronting him about this, and all of a sudden,
29:24
Speaker 2: this kid snaps. You have to think that, you know,
29:29
Speaker 2: it was his motivation, anger and laziness, you know, and
29:34
Speaker 2: that one moment that he decided to put ford motion
29:37
Speaker 2: into his life. He didn't do it in the area
29:39
Speaker 2: of studying to improve himself or whatever. I know what
29:44
Speaker 2: I'm going to do. I'm going to kill my parents
29:47
Speaker 2: and then I'm gonna you know, split them up into
29:50
Speaker 2: pieces and try to get rid of their bodies.
29:53
Speaker 3: Dave, and he actually, I had to cover this case. Yeah,
30:00
Speaker 3: I think you run it a lot too.
30:02
Speaker 1: I was, and I was.
30:03
Speaker 3: We spent a lot of time looking at the case
30:06
Speaker 3: piece by piece literally to try to determine what really
30:10
Speaker 3: was going on. Here because I think sometimes when we see,
30:13
Speaker 3: especially a child that attacks parents, we try to think
30:18
Speaker 3: was there something underlying? Was there something else here? Because
30:22
Speaker 3: for us we think there has to be something more.
30:26
Speaker 3: It couldn't really have just been that he had been
30:29
Speaker 3: lying for so long and he knew he was caught
30:31
Speaker 3: and they were going to cut off funding his lifestyle.
30:34
Speaker 3: You know that he was the jig was up, and
30:36
Speaker 3: now he's left with, well, if I kill them, I'll
30:38
Speaker 3: get all their stuff and live my life. You know,
30:41
Speaker 3: that's where we get stuck with that sometimes because we
30:44
Speaker 3: have to we in our own minds have to figure
30:46
Speaker 3: out why would anybody do this? Yes, and there is
30:49
Speaker 3: no rhyme or reason to it. It really makes no
30:52
Speaker 3: sense when you've got a young person that chooses this
30:56
Speaker 3: path as a decision they think is a good way
30:59
Speaker 3: to go about life right now for them and their parents.
31:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that he you know, I guess again,
31:07
Speaker 2: this goes to motivation and it's not necessarily my Bailey Wick.
31:11
Speaker 2: But when you see what he did to their bodies,
31:16
Speaker 2: he's got them, you know, he's got He's got them
31:21
Speaker 2: in multiple pieces, and he's you can tell that he's
31:23
Speaker 2: kind of frenzied because he's trying to decide how he's
31:26
Speaker 2: going to divest himself of his parents' remains. Can you
31:29
Speaker 2: imagine being that? Well, I don't think you can. Hopefully
31:32
Speaker 2: you can't, but hopefully neither can I. But all of
31:34
Speaker 2: a sudden you're faced with kind of eye popping situation
31:38
Speaker 2: where it's like, oh, okay, I've literally pulled the trigger
31:41
Speaker 2: on my parents, and what am I going to do now?
31:45
Speaker 3: Multiple gunshot wounds, you know, yeah, they did it was
31:48
Speaker 3: a hunting accident. You're not you know, you're not out
31:50
Speaker 3: hunting with Dick Cheney. You can't say it was an
31:52
Speaker 3: accident right to your parents. They've got multiple gunshot wounds.
31:56
Speaker 3: So your next best choice, I mean, think about it.
31:59
Speaker 3: The best choice this guy had made led him to this.
32:02
Speaker 3: So we're not dealing with a mental or mature individual.
32:06
Speaker 3: We're dealing with an idiot who chose one idiot action
32:09
Speaker 3: after another.
32:10
Speaker 1: Man.
32:10
Speaker 3: You mentioned frenzied in his way of dismembering. Yes, how
32:16
Speaker 3: would that be different in terms of what you would
32:18
Speaker 3: see as you're looking at the I hate to make
32:20
Speaker 3: it sound like you're putting a puzzle together, but I
32:22
Speaker 3: would imagine that's what you're doing trying to figure out everything.
32:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, you are you.
32:28
Speaker 2: You're in a situation where I think that you cannot.
32:32
Speaker 2: You don't your brain is not ordered to the point.
32:36
Speaker 2: And this actually goes, I think to the fact that
32:39
Speaker 2: he's not some psychopath, because a psychopath could actually sit
32:44
Speaker 2: there and think about very in a very ordered manner.
32:48
Speaker 2: If they're going to do this, this is you know,
32:51
Speaker 2: part A, Part B, Part C. That's not what he did.
32:56
Speaker 2: He even attempted to burn the bodies in in the
33:00
Speaker 2: I think, in the fireplace in the home. He winds
33:04
Speaker 2: up distributing the bodies at a cabin that was up
33:09
Speaker 2: the road, you know, from the family home. And you know,
33:14
Speaker 2: he's lied about what became of them. Where did they go?
33:19
Speaker 1: He's the one that reported him missing.
33:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if I remember correctly, he walked down the
33:24
Speaker 2: road to neighbors' houses and asked them, have you seen
33:27
Speaker 2: my parents? And the one thing that really stands out
33:30
Speaker 2: to me is there's that that one woman they had
33:33
Speaker 2: a video of her. I don't know if she had
33:36
Speaker 2: her phone out or whatever it was, she let him
33:38
Speaker 2: in her house. And this is in the wake of this,
33:41
Speaker 2: and he's like I'm just here looking for my parents.
33:43
Speaker 2: Can you help me? And I'm thinking, oh, my lord, boy,
33:46
Speaker 2: did she dodge bullet? This case, Dave, and I don't
33:50
Speaker 2: know if you remember this, but this case is not
33:54
Speaker 2: too dissimilar from one other one that was an aggressive
33:59
Speaker 2: dismemberment and it was the two women. It was a
34:03
Speaker 2: daughter and a granddaughter. And this was in Maryland.
34:06
Speaker 1: Oh yes, I remember, in the basement, yeah.
34:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, where the daughter had killed the grandmother and they
34:16
Speaker 2: they had used or she had used a chainsaw and
34:20
Speaker 2: made her daughter act as a lookout to see if
34:24
Speaker 2: the sisters of grandmother were going to show up. And
34:28
Speaker 2: what makes this so I think that this was again
34:32
Speaker 2: another aggression related kind of thing with the dismemberment, what
34:37
Speaker 2: are you going to do? Because they tried this is
34:40
Speaker 2: the part that got me. Not that the rest of
34:42
Speaker 2: it with a chainsaw and everything doesn't get me. But
34:45
Speaker 2: they tried to render her down on a barbecue grill
34:48
Speaker 2: in the backyard.
34:49
Speaker 1: Yep.
34:50
Speaker 2: And again that goes to you this anger. There's no
34:53
Speaker 2: honoring of the dead here. And actually she retained the
34:57
Speaker 2: body parts. They were in the basement, in the basement,
35:00
Speaker 2: down down in the house where she had actually been killed.
35:03
Speaker 2: She had been killed up in her room, and so
35:06
Speaker 2: there was a lot of blood deposition. You've got a
35:09
Speaker 2: chainsaw that generates high velocity blood deposition almost looks like
35:14
Speaker 2: high velocity gunshot wounds, and it would be everywhere. One
35:18
Speaker 2: of the most messy undertakings that you can possibly have.
35:24
Speaker 2: But you know, we've left you with two at this point,
35:29
Speaker 2: we've still got, believe it or not, three more different
35:33
Speaker 2: types of dismemberment to go hold onto your hat. We've
35:52
Speaker 2: had this discussion going Dave about the types of dismemberment,
35:57
Speaker 2: probably one of the most chilling ones that you know,
36:01
Speaker 2: they're all chilling by their own right, but there is
36:05
Speaker 2: there is a type of dismemberment that is out there
36:08
Speaker 2: that actually drives a person. It's I think that that
36:15
Speaker 2: the actual dismemberment of the body is the end game.
36:22
Speaker 2: It's the thrill of it.
36:23
Speaker 1: Wow.
36:24
Speaker 2: Because there is a sexual connotation. I think that even
36:28
Speaker 2: if you look perhaps back at the Gainsol Ripper, you
36:32
Speaker 2: know that the movie screen was based on there was
36:37
Speaker 2: a sexual element to that. I believe. I believe there
36:40
Speaker 2: were at least one, maybe two. I can't recall. My
36:44
Speaker 2: brain's foggy, right, now the decapitations, but you know, with
36:48
Speaker 2: with with offensive dismemberment, there's an element that they believe
36:55
Speaker 2: that is sexual in nature. The person probably has a
36:59
Speaker 2: taste of sadism. That's part of who they are. It's
37:03
Speaker 2: part of the person that they are. The you know,
37:07
Speaker 2: the case I think that first came to mind for
37:10
Speaker 2: me and I mentioned this case a lot because it's
37:13
Speaker 2: so horrific is the murder of Ingrad Lynn up in Seattle,
37:18
Speaker 2: you know where she had been on a dating app
37:21
Speaker 2: and you know, she was a nurse, had two small kids,
37:24
Speaker 2: had a good relationship with their ex husband. I think
37:27
Speaker 2: the ex husband was Yeah, she was gorgeous, had you know,
37:31
Speaker 2: the ex husband had the kids, so she could go
37:33
Speaker 2: out on a date. They went to a Mariner's ball
37:35
Speaker 2: game in Seattle, and they being the person that she
37:40
Speaker 2: hooked up with on the dating app, David, This this did.
37:44
Speaker 1: Not end well.
37:45
Speaker 3: John Robert Charlton was his name. Yeah, takes her out
37:49
Speaker 3: to us a Seattle Mariner's game. What a great first date,
37:54
Speaker 3: you know if you're.
37:55
Speaker 2: That's I Hey, nook, I got to say that was
37:57
Speaker 2: mine and Kim's first date.
37:58
Speaker 1: Man.
37:59
Speaker 2: We went to see the Toronto Blue Jays in interleague
38:03
Speaker 2: play against the Braves. Wow, it took her on a
38:05
Speaker 2: Friday night. Yeah, I'll never forget. It was nineteen ninety eight.
38:09
Speaker 2: John Smoltz pitched and he lost four to Oh.
38:12
Speaker 3: Wow, you should have never gone out with her again
38:15
Speaker 3: after that. I'll come on at any rate. So Charleton
38:19
Speaker 3: takes her out and they go on this date. And
38:23
Speaker 3: you mentioned the ex husband watching the children so she
38:26
Speaker 3: could go on this date, which is there are a
38:28
Speaker 3: few people that I know, thankfully, who have survived the
38:31
Speaker 3: divorce and maintained a good relationship for their children, and
38:35
Speaker 3: that's what they were attempting to do. Which that tells
38:38
Speaker 3: me a lot about the person we're talking about here
38:40
Speaker 3: in Ingrid's case, because it takes a certain intestinal fortitude,
38:44
Speaker 3: but others first, and to put herself in a position
38:48
Speaker 3: with this person she doesn't know, and to go to
38:51
Speaker 3: a very safe first date in the ball game, she's
38:56
Speaker 3: reported missing the next day and she's last seen, you know,
39:02
Speaker 3: going out on the date. The thing that got me
39:07
Speaker 3: about this one, and you might have to correct me,
39:08
Speaker 3: because wasn't it a homeowner?
39:11
Speaker 2: Yeah?
39:12
Speaker 3: That had because Seattle being what it is, not knocking,
39:17
Speaker 3: and my sister lives in Seattle and.
39:18
Speaker 1: She's a school teacher.
39:21
Speaker 3: But my sister they have they have cans, you know,
39:25
Speaker 3: between recycling and not recycling, and boy, if you put
39:27
Speaker 3: the wrong thing in the wrong can, you're in trouble.
39:30
Speaker 3: And that's what came to mind on this, because this
39:34
Speaker 3: had something to do with the recycling that caused this
39:37
Speaker 3: neighbor to look and go, hey, this ain't mine.
39:40
Speaker 1: I didn't put this here.
39:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, he went out there and goes to you know,
39:46
Speaker 2: when if you live in a city that does trash
39:50
Speaker 2: pick up and you go you put your ben out
39:54
Speaker 2: by the road, when you go to pull it back in,
39:56
Speaker 2: you don't expect it to still be heavy. No, okay,
40:00
Speaker 2: So this guy is pulling the trash ben back in.
40:04
Speaker 2: It's heavy. He's like, what is this? He opens the
40:07
Speaker 2: lid up. If I remember correctly, he's staring down at
40:09
Speaker 2: a foot yes and yeah. No, it's one of the
40:14
Speaker 2: most horrific things.
40:16
Speaker 1: And here's where my mind went.
40:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, when we first had this, Joe, my first thought was, Okay,
40:22
Speaker 3: the case is broken because this homeowner, because the homeowner
40:26
Speaker 3: had the body was in his trash hand as he's
40:28
Speaker 3: pulling it back up. If the killer had been a
40:33
Speaker 3: couple hours or minutes earlier. Yep, she would have been
40:38
Speaker 3: in the trash and nobody would have known.
40:40
Speaker 2: No, I'm so glad you said that, because that's indicative
40:45
Speaker 2: of a tom Stamp relative when that particular remain was
40:50
Speaker 2: placed in there. So you know that he must have
40:53
Speaker 2: deposited this after the trash run had taken place, you know,
40:57
Speaker 2: because you wouldn't have had this reaction from the home, right,
41:00
Speaker 2: So dragging it back in looks down and I can't
41:03
Speaker 2: even imagine, you know, I've got visions of myself walking
41:06
Speaker 2: up my bathroom with a cup of coffee in my hand,
41:08
Speaker 2: and I'm walking back up the driveway, you know, with
41:12
Speaker 2: the bind trailing behind me, and you feel this weight
41:15
Speaker 2: and you open it up. And as it turns out,
41:18
Speaker 2: when she did not show up to pick up the
41:22
Speaker 2: kids or no, wait, that wasn't the way it was,
41:25
Speaker 2: the husband ex husband brought the kids back to their home,
41:29
Speaker 2: she didn't answer the door, and he's like one of
41:33
Speaker 2: the first people I think it was. It was one
41:35
Speaker 2: of her relatives that he alerted to call the mom.
41:39
Speaker 2: They made entry and she's nowhere to be found. And
41:43
Speaker 2: that was just so far outside of the norm. But
41:47
Speaker 2: you know what was eventually discovered other than her remains
41:54
Speaker 2: after a period of time that had been you know,
41:56
Speaker 2: subsequently deposited in various bends around the air area. They
42:01
Speaker 2: discovered that whoever did this had actually used a limb saw,
42:07
Speaker 2: which if you think about the big curved handle, you know,
42:11
Speaker 2: with a thin.
42:11
Speaker 1: Blade hands like a handsaw, not a power saw.
42:15
Speaker 2: No, not a power saw, but like a limbsaw. And
42:18
Speaker 2: so and he did this in the bathroom because you
42:22
Speaker 2: could see they still had they had trace evidence around
42:27
Speaker 2: the drain. They had it in the drain trap of
42:30
Speaker 2: blood and tissue. Because you're going to generate if you,
42:33
Speaker 2: I urge everybody, if you get a chance to take
42:36
Speaker 2: a look at one of these saws, look down the
42:37
Speaker 2: long axis of the saw, and you'll see that the
42:39
Speaker 2: teeth are not perfectly aligned. They're kind of offset a
42:42
Speaker 2: little bit. Well, have you ever wondered why when you
42:46
Speaker 2: look at one of these saws, if you ever saw
42:48
Speaker 2: the limb off, there's a lot of sawdust that gets
42:50
Speaker 2: caught up in there. And that's because it's very destructive, okay,
42:54
Speaker 2: very very destructive. It really goes through these limbs in
42:57
Speaker 2: a very efficient way. However, it gather up all of
43:00
Speaker 2: this dust and the bark and everything else that's particulated
43:04
Speaker 2: at that point in time. It's the same thing with
43:07
Speaker 2: bone and muscle and any kind of sinew that it
43:10
Speaker 2: goes through, and the skin and the hair. You know,
43:13
Speaker 2: you'll get that caught up on the blade as well.
43:15
Speaker 3: You know, Joe, how they got him, you know how
43:17
Speaker 3: they figured out who it was? Please tell me it
43:19
Speaker 3: was her mom.
43:19
Speaker 1: Okay?
43:20
Speaker 3: When when the mom is called by the ex husband
43:23
Speaker 3: and they make entry into her house, Okay, she's not
43:26
Speaker 3: Lynna's not home, angry, she's nowhere to be found. And
43:29
Speaker 3: so they look around and they find her purse, and
43:31
Speaker 3: they find her phone. Mom picks up her phone and
43:35
Speaker 3: she knows who she was going to go out on
43:37
Speaker 3: a date with, knowing that she was going out with Charlton.
43:41
Speaker 3: So what does she do? Using the cell phone in
43:45
Speaker 3: the residence, Lenn's mother calls Charlton and hey, what happened?
43:52
Speaker 1: Where is she?
43:53
Speaker 3: And as soon as she hung up from the phone,
43:55
Speaker 3: she called the police. She used herself, her daughter's cell
43:59
Speaker 3: phone to call the police and say hey, or actually,
44:03
Speaker 3: you know what, she sent a text to Charlton that's
44:05
Speaker 3: what it was. It was not voice of his text. Sorry,
44:07
Speaker 3: and then she called the police and that's when they
44:10
Speaker 3: discovered the blood and everything else a Charlton's place.
44:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're trying to say, you know, the police
44:17
Speaker 2: are trying to pet upon attended. I keep following in
44:20
Speaker 2: that trap. They're trying to put this thing together relative
44:23
Speaker 2: to who she had finally had contact with. And look
44:26
Speaker 2: at the top of this. And what's really weird, Dave,
44:28
Speaker 2: is this perpetrator is homeless man, you know, and he
44:32
Speaker 2: when you see him in the interviews, he looks like
44:35
Speaker 2: a kind of a well put together guy, but he's
44:38
Speaker 2: living on streets, you know, up in Seattle, unlike you know,
44:43
Speaker 2: the case involving and we're I can't say we're just
44:46
Speaker 2: coming off of this. It seems like it has been
44:48
Speaker 2: going on forever and ever. And this is that damn
44:52
Speaker 2: Taylorship business case as well. And again I think this
44:55
Speaker 2: falls into the category of offensive dismemberment because this poor
45:00
Speaker 2: guy that she just absolutely wrecked, he he's kind of
45:07
Speaker 2: this to me. He just he always came off and
45:10
Speaker 2: everything that I read about him, everything that I saw,
45:15
Speaker 2: he kind of came off as as kind of a
45:19
Speaker 2: passive kind of guy. She's twenty five. Shad Tyron, who
45:25
Speaker 2: is the victim here, is twenty four. You know, she's
45:29
Speaker 2: actually charged in this case, Dave of you know, like
45:33
Speaker 2: I said, and that's why I believe it goes to
45:35
Speaker 2: this homicide obviously because she killed him, but third degree
45:39
Speaker 2: sexual abuse and mutilating a corpse. Yeah, and you know
45:43
Speaker 2: she had she had actually done this down in the
45:48
Speaker 2: basement of his mother's home.
45:50
Speaker 1: Man.
45:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know it was it was Shad Durian's
45:57
Speaker 3: mom who actually discovered yeah, and parts of his anatomy,
46:04
Speaker 3: parts of his body.
46:05
Speaker 2: Yep.
46:06
Speaker 3: And police found that her business used knives that were
46:12
Speaker 3: found in the home. Okay, just knives found in the
46:15
Speaker 3: home Joe to dismember a body after after she killed him,
46:22
Speaker 3: she continued to have sex with his dead body. Now,
46:27
Speaker 3: there are so many questions I have about that that,
46:30
Speaker 3: to be honest with you, I don't even want to
46:32
Speaker 3: ask because I don't want my.
46:32
Speaker 1: Brain to go down that path. Right, But immediately I'm thinking, really, that's.
46:38
Speaker 3: I know that you cannot just say just because I
46:40
Speaker 3: don't understand the proclivity that it makes that person insane.
46:45
Speaker 3: I just can't think of a sane person who would
46:47
Speaker 3: do that. But based on her activity and what she
46:50
Speaker 3: did after and the way she presents herself, yep, I
46:53
Speaker 3: think she perfectly knew exactly what she was doing the
46:56
Speaker 3: entire time, because it wasn't oops, messed up it was
47:02
Speaker 3: you know, it wasn't. Hey man, we're into this really
47:04
Speaker 3: kinky stuff. We like to take it really close to
47:06
Speaker 3: death as we climax. It wasn't any of that, Joe.
47:09
Speaker 2: No, No, it wasn't. And that's why I think that
47:13
Speaker 2: she's touched by sadism here. I don't mean satanism, I
47:16
Speaker 2: mean sadism. She has this desire, I think, to inflict pain,
47:21
Speaker 2: and I think through the pain and the sexual dominant
47:24
Speaker 2: dominance that she exerted over this guy, not just in life, Dave,
47:28
Speaker 2: but in death as well. I think that that came
47:31
Speaker 2: out at the end game here. Just like with all
47:33
Speaker 2: of these offensive dismemberment cases, it plays out so that
47:39
Speaker 2: it's a it's it's an event where these individuals can
47:44
Speaker 2: in fact bring themselves to sexual satisfaction, even if it
47:51
Speaker 2: means murder and dismemberment. That was part one of the
47:59
Speaker 2: types of implement Part two is coming up. I'm Joseph
48:05
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan and this is body backsh