Latest / From the Founding of the City Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies / Episode 131 – Dictators by the Dozen
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- Unknown Speaker 0:01 Hello, my name is Tom dinos and I'm the creator of the deleted legacy podcast. Join me to time travel together through food to explore archaea, astronomical mysteries, unknown herbs and long lost recipes that will take you to the lavish feasts of ancient Greece all the way through to Ancient China and in the kitchens of kings in mediaeval Europe. Who made the first cheese and why how beer was made. What is Garo? silphium? And can I find these now, through the accounts of ancient writers and talking to experts have a dinner we find out. So subscribe or follow now wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple podcasts, Google and Spotify, and listen for free, other delicious legacy podcast. Dr Rad 1:02 Welcome to the partial historians, Dr G 1:05 we explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 1:09 Everything from the political scandals, the levels as the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. Dr G 1:19 And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 1:29 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 1:51 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historian's. I am Dr. G, Dr Rad 1:59 and die and Dr. Brad Dr G 2:01 looking fabulous as usual. Dr Rad 2:02 Give me such a nice compliment. And I always forget to give you names just because you're just a naturally beautiful, I don't think I need to see the camera can see you this time so they can see the truth. Dr G 2:16 So we have been tracing rooms history from the foundation of the city that we have, and it's been a wild ride so far. And it's only gonna get worse. I think we're entering into this Dr Rad 2:28 period. Wait, wait, we promised at the end of the previous episode that it was going to be better. Dr G 2:34 Oh, like I can't make any guarantees about what I may or may not have promised at the end of the last Samsung. I don't know we're entering into this period where we're going to see more and more dictators. So I think you know, we've seen some already, but just you wait, you ain't seen nothing yet. Yeah, we're heading down that kind of half Dr Rad 2:52 definitely. So to do a quick recap, Dr. g of where we're at, in this journey of Rome, from the founding of the city, deep in the Roman Republic that we are, we just covered the year 436. And in 436, we saw quite a few things happening in my account. So a little bit of reading happening, but nothing too serious on the military front. And then you had some detail about some of the domestic occurrences Dr G 3:17 that were going on. I did but I mean, my sources are pretty thin on the ground right now. And I feel like I'm not really building any sort of narrative momentum myself and sort of understanding what's happening in this period. And it's partly because my great friend, my soloists in hard times Dionysius of Halicarnassus, is music. Dr Rad 3:34 Well, certainly what we saw in the bits that you put together and the bits that I had from levy was that there is seemingly another tribune of the plebs called spurious. Malleus will trying to seek vengeance or in his words, justice against the men who were involved in either murdering or triggering the murder of the regional spirits. Dr G 4:00 I think it's far more likely that spurious maelys came back from the dead. Dr Rad 4:05 We'll let the audience decide. But anyway, and so he seems to have been going after a holla or at least a house property because a holler of course is in exile and then also Manoukian is who was the prefect of the green? Who reported me aliases suppose and treachery doesn't get very far though I don't think because even though he's got the name a pestilence breaks out. And also I don't think people who were digging his his whole vibe Dr G 4:34 Yeah. Which is weird. I feel like the narrative who's not making a lot of sense right now Dr Rad 4:39 look, I think it just goes to show that it is not the case that a rose by any other name. Well, I think you Shakespeare right, any so yeah, there's a few things happening. Definitely the plague. I think it's the most significant for 36 But I feel safe now saying that we can delve into For 35 Dr G 5:22 We have some consoles we have Gaius Julius okay. Yes son of grandson. Oh of question mark. Ooh, this question mark. So much is unknown, a patrician console for the second time previously console in 447. Dr Rad 5:41 Definitely so fairly recent Dr G 5:44 fairly recent. Yeah. Doesn't stand out in my memory is significant. Maybe I forgotten something. Dr Rad 5:49 Now that was that time period right after the for the second December when it was kind of a bit like, like there wasn't a lot of detail. Yeah, Dr G 5:57 okay. Yeah. And we also have Lucien or propolis. The guinea Yes. Son of grants on off, try Costas Dr Rad 6:08 also a patrician. Also a protrusion. Definitely yeah. Gonna have some other night yesterday. So this year. Dr G 6:16 We are out we are going to have some sensors, huh? So we're going to have Gaius Dr Rad 6:23 furious nice to return the fury AI Dr G 6:28 pack Ulus versus patrician previously consoling 441 and Marcus Gurgaon is son of Marcus Massa Rhenus. Yes console many times 447 So with old mate Euless. 443 Yeah, and 437 only like a couple of years ago apparently Dr Rad 6:53 made such an impression. Dr G 6:55 And but wait, things get out of hand this year, who knew? There's going to be a dictator. Dr Rad 7:01 Wow. Dictators recently, Dr G 7:07 not really giving that the Quintus Sebelius, son of Publius, grandson of spurious Priscus muddiness Dr Rad 7:18 patrician, yeah. Dr G 7:20 Yeah, the guy who captures for DNA, Dr Rad 7:23 yes. And we've also got a dictator. And you know, you've also got to have a master of Dr G 7:27 the horse. Everybody's got to be in charge of Horses, Don't They? Yeah. costumers a beauteous Hoover coolican. Sounds like he has Gordon's I hope that's not true for Dr Rad 7:37 him. But there are so many Roman names which have medical connotations to me, but that's probably because. Dr G 7:46 Yes, yeah, infiltration of Latin into western medicine console of 442. So a lot of people that we've seen before in various guises. Now, back for some action. And I'm really excited for what you're going to tell me about this year, because I have always literally nothing else. But this list of names. Dr Rad 8:06 Well, look, I'm not gonna lie. This is the period. I think that's probably the murkiest I've ever seen Big Core. I know, that way. It's because there does seem to be a lot of blending of years in levies account, I don't think it's quite as clear cut as it usually is. So to be honest, we enforce anywhere. I mean, yes. That's why Dr G 8:29 I keep saying I think spirits Malleus could have just come back from the dead. So we don't know what's happening with this chronology right now. Dr Rad 8:35 This is true. This is true. The chronology is all shutter Hill, I am dividing them up into 436 and 435. But it's probably slightly arbitrary. I don't know there seems to be a lot of blending going on here. Certainly, I think with the whole plague situation. This might be part of the problems, after all. Leary himself said it's problematic period. In that last episode that we were we talked a lot about his Dr G 9:01 song. Yeah, it's troublesome. I mean, if everybody's tick, who's going to be writing up the fastI? And we're like, guys are going to take leave? Dr Rad 9:07 Good question. It's good question. So anyway, so we've got our consoles to start off the obviously. So we've got our Gaius Reus. And we've got our looses the Guinness as consoles, the people of room are terrified. They've got a really big job on their hands. Now, as often happens when you've got domestic problems of this magnitude, nobody's super concerned about campaigning outside of Roman territory at this point in time. So you may wonder, why am I saying that? Well, that's because we've been dealing with these issues with the Etruscans for the last couple of years. And there's question mark over the loyalties of a Roman colony, kidney. So I'm mentioning it in the sense that this is a time where that almost makes it backburner in the face of you know, worse. Exactly. So both the patricians and plebeians are happy. That is a peaceful time In Rome, because they got just oh, I don't know, so much to deal with. However the people from feed may Dr G 10:12 decide it's time to make. They don't have the plague. Dr Rad 10:16 Well, I mean, that's just Yeah, it is infectious disease. So there have been some people from you know, who all holed up in there, you know, in the mountains hiding behind their city walls and that sort of thing. They decide, clearly, this is a prime time to start pillaging Roman territory because the Romans just you know, keeping to themselves isolating Dr G 10:42 maybe socially distant Dr Rad 10:43 Yeah. Anyway, and so they summons people from they to you know, help them out. Oh, yeah. Then you allies. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, the Phyllis skins are not really interested in restarting the war at this point of time. Now they have been involved as allies in this conflict up until this point, we've mentioned them briefly. Dr G 11:05 I have sought Yeah, I have some details on the full list. Dr Rad 11:09 Okay, because I always I must admit, I really like their name for lists. Dr G 11:12 Skins. Yeah, it is nice. It says it rolls off the tongue mostly Dr Rad 11:16 that a classy Dr G 11:19 Well, apparently the skins are a distinct people. Dr Rad 11:23 I think so. Yeah, I think so they're Dr G 11:25 not they don't consider themselves to be Latin, and they don't consider themselves to be a Truscott. So they are from Northern Latin, like geographically speaking southern or TURia. So they kind of on this really sort of hazy border line between these two regions. Yeah. But they actually have a language, which is separate from both. Interesting. Yeah, so they have a capital city, which is thought to be on a tough spur. So tough is a type of stone on the eastern Monte Cimini. So for those who are like, wait a minute, let me get out my Italian maps, and sitting between two tributaries of the Tiber, the Macondo and the Faso majority of Maggiore, I should say, my Italian, correct, yeah. And so this is also known as the trust inside of the Tiber. So they're right on this sort of river edge as well. They have a tradition that they're founded by an algo of hero. So a great comes over a guy called how lesses and this is a story that often tells us in the fasting, and they also have a competing tradition that they have a child study and foundation. Okay, so different Greeks. Yeah. And despite the fact that they their language is separate and distinct, it is considered a dialect connected mostly to Latin, okay, rather than a trust gum. Dr Rad 12:55 I'm suspicious. By Greeks. Dr G 12:58 I mean, one should be suspicious. And the politicans throw in their lot with V. Yes. And, also, and then for DNA, what as that evolves there, Dr Rad 13:09 but one at this point in time, yeah, in many ways, but anyway, but at this point in time, they're not interested in taking part in anymore according to Livi, even though the airlines had like really good news, and also the fact that I think everybody knows that Rome is experiencing this pestilence. So even though they've seen like, the weak member of the herd, the flu skins not having it. Okay, so as a result, it is just the people of they and feeding me that ended up crossing over the Ania River and setting up their standards near the climb gate, one of the gates of room because it is surrounded by a wall. Dr G 13:52 It is surrounded by the wall, the calling gate is if you're in Rome, today, it's near terminus station. Yes, it's also where the Vestal virgins get buried. Dr Rad 14:01 And it's also where Crassus the guy who defeats Spartacus has one of his most notable military successes. Brandon fat is Dr G 14:14 Yeah, famous gates. That's the sort of quality content wherever you to this room, and Dave will Dr Rad 14:19 come on in anyway. So of course, the people of Redmond are freaking out because people are Dr G 14:25 at the gates of Rome. And they're like, You know what, I haven't been able to control my bell for weeks. Exactly. Not up to a battlefield confrontation. Dr Rad 14:32 Exactly. It's the last thing that you need when you have to play to have enemy camped right outside the gate. So as a result, console Julius Ulis, whatever, bring it into action that's placing troops along the ramparts and the walls of Rome. Meanwhile, the other console we're getting is is consulting with the Senate in the temple of queerness, which I believe is on the Rule Hill, funnily enough, don't know. I'm just going to say it sounds reasonable. Yeah, exactly. All right now it's at this point in time, obviously. Tough times. What do you need if you're in a tough time? I take Dr G 15:14 Oh, dictator. Yeah, it's time for a dictator. You know what would be good right now? Somebody to take charge? Dr Rad 15:19 Exactly. Yes. So this is where we have quinti as Sir William this question marks around the rest of his name being made dictator. Now we're getting us is feeling a little awkward at this point in time because his his colleague is not there to consult about this suggestion. Okay, so he wants to discuss it. She's very sweet. And Ulis Ulis gives his consent dictator is officially named and he then gets to choose his master of the horse, his little lieutenancy type person. And that is of course one customers a booty is helva who is chosen. So the dictator Sebelius he also springs into action. There is no time to be lost. He orders everyone to assemble outside the Colin gate at dawn. Dr G 16:08 Get there? Yeah, we will face the enemy directly. Absolutely. Dr Rad 16:11 Anyone who is capable of fighting needs to show up now. Dr G 16:17 Just drag yourself out of bed. I don't care if you agreed about the gills. Dr Rad 16:21 I was gonna say there's a question about the definition of this. Because normally I would say that probably involves most of the men in the population. At this point in time, Dr G 16:30 dear Marsha, I wrote to you from Bostick, Ben where I've just Dr Rad 16:36 was usually Lucretia Dr G 16:39 not in this case. He's just like this. Dr Rad 16:44 Dear Lucretia. I write to you from Asik to do well to fat Dr G 16:52 the order has just come through that we must be at the gate if we're able to fight but I can't I can't even keep myself up rat for any length of time. Will you go to my place the creature will you fight for me? Dr Rad 17:07 No you will not because that would be an abomination. Dr G 17:10 Don't you dare emasculate me but going out there you get Dr Rad 17:14 even though I may be as sick as a little baby You are not to fight under any circumstances and you're so rude. Anyway, so anyone who could fight supposed to show up at this point in time they remove the standards from the Treasury and they are brought to the dictator the enemy I presume notice that there is some activity in Rome itself and they withdraw to higher ground smart move always a good move in a military engagement to have the higher ground Dr G 17:44 I have a detail about the standards if you're interested why Dr Rad 17:49 tell me about the standards Dr G 17:50 yeah look for on Tinus and his Street hedge funds okay up to Section Eight subsections eight to nine on restoring morale but Dr Rad 18:01 I'm liking where this is going Yeah, Dr G 18:03 I had so little to add to this year but yeah, the standards is one of them. Hey, I will just read about it. This is hardware Dr Rad 18:09 right here Dr G 18:10 the dictator civilians Priscus yes having given the command to carry the standards of the Legions against the hostile for less guns ordered wait whoa is it just the feet are nicer with it Dr Rad 18:25 for less guns? Yeah. Very emphatically said Dr G 18:30 and yet reduce have this detail you know, I think that probably come up later. Yeah. Okay, I Dr Rad 18:35 think this is showing the blending I retract by friends. I'll come back to No not at all I would not put money on like me. I think that this just goes to show like the blending that's happening. Yeah. All right. Anyway, Dr G 18:47 all right. The standards of allegiance to be brought against the hostel for skins Yeah. The removal of the standards out does that put me in mind and I was like this is my time to shine but maybe it's not Yeah. But he does this and then immediately orders the standard bearer for to be executed for hesitating to obey. So the first one is like the word now you won't be you really want me to go the standards. It's like kill that man. I'm the dictator kill that man. Wow, the rest coward by this example, advanced against the foe. Dr Rad 19:21 Wow. Okay. Well, I mean that is your right as a dictator is it not? Yeah, to just execute someone on site. That's the point of having a dictator they can make quick snap decisions which is really helpful when someone's life is involved. Yeah, anyway, somebody's Dr G 19:35 life was involved. Dr Rad 19:37 All right, well, any here so. So sorry. Dr G 19:46 Not not trying to we wait for you. Dr Rad 19:50 We really do. Anyway. So Willie is starts marching his Roman forces to meet the enemy and they end up meeting they meet, they ended up meeting up near no momentum, not in momentum. Need to mention I say that because momentum is no pot. So I just want to make that very, very much not involved yet. It's also one of those interesting areas which is in Latin and apparently, neither say bye and frontier but it is Latin. Yeah. It has also been mentioned as being originally a colony of Alba. Oh, yeah. Interesting. I'm also throwing those details in there. So it's also a colony of Alba along with your favourite named place. Crust you Mariam is great and fini. Of all places. It's about four miles from the Tiber. Hmm, all right. Anyway, so battle ensues with the Etruscans and the rumours appearing to be able to hand because the trust can end up retreating. So really, this dictator that he is ends up pursuing the retreating foe, pushes them back into the city of Feeny, the Romans that of course, kick into siege mentality. Saturday mentality moving varies where they surround feed night with a rampart. So obviously some kind of temporary fence. Yeah, defensive or we're not defensive in this case. Dr G 21:28 Offensive more, I'm offended by that fence. Dr Rad 21:30 Exactly. But unfortunately, they are unable to capture the city using scaling ladders. Classic siege technique, because feed a is apparently very well fortified. Huh? Yeah, you'd Dr G 21:46 want to be after switching sides. Be like I'm ditching the Romans For the Etruscans for prepare the defence? Dr Rad 21:53 Well, funny, you should say that actually, because there's another thing to their defences, which is very impressive. They also aren't going to be able to starve them out because they had plenty of corn. They were very well prepared. Oh, yeah. Maybe that's Dr G 22:09 why there was a grain shortage. Hoarding grain for years at this point be like we can hold up, still get some delicious something. Dr Rad 22:19 Exactly. Got plenty of Doritos. They last forever, even when they say oh, they still taste Dr G 22:24 good luck and do what you got to do when you're hungry. Exactly. Dr Rad 22:27 Now, this is a bit of a pickle. And it causes Sebelius to say, free viewing of the situation. At the third act Oliver in case any of you were fans of musical theatre? Anyway, he's very familiar with the region. He's got to rethink how everything is going. I mean, obviously, we're not far from Rome. So I think most people are pretty familiar with the region. It's not really like a kudos to him or anything like that. Anyway, but he decides that he's going to attack cDNA in the on the father's side of the city, because in this particular area, the way that the city is positioned, it's I guess they felt when they were originally setting it up and setting up the defences that it didn't really need to have as strong defences because naturally it was kind of Dr G 23:15 got a natural defence. Yeah, like its element to it. And it also Dr Rad 23:19 I guess, wouldn't be maybe the most logical place for any attacking armies to Dr G 23:23 launch their attack. Well, we wouldn't want to accuse the Romans of logic now, would we? Dr Rad 23:28 So he decides that what he's going to do is another classic siege technique, which he's going to start to drive a mine into the citadel of Finney. So I gather from that that what he's probably doing is he's digging under the fortifications. Dr G 23:44 I have a real problem with the idea that they're going to tunnel into somewhere Dr Rad 23:48 Hey, did it they didn't Castle Dr G 23:51 Well yeah, but this I mean, this takes a long time that you get to be dictated for six months. Dr Rad 23:55 Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on like, how substantial are the walls we're talking about here? I mean, sure. It's well fortified for 435 BCE. What is that? Dr G 24:04 What is What does that even mean? I don't think Dr Rad 24:07 we should envision like a Lord of the Rings style castle at this point in time, which is very disappointing, but it is this is a technique that they do use in this sort of warfare I mean even think of World War One trenches they were battles for undergrad I'm Dr G 24:21 not completely against it. I'm just a bit like I feel like logistically it's just not the greatest strategy where there's history Wait, Dr Rad 24:29 you haven't heard the whole Oh, okay so severely is also only dedicates part of his army to digging this oh, well, that's good. Because Because because the rest of the army is going to maintain the siege in like an obvious place like hey, look at us besieging you. Okay. moustache 12 And so the people In the city are like, well, this is the Dr G 25:01 attack. So that's, that's the siege. Exactly. They're Dr Rad 25:05 distracted by that. And therefore, they had no idea that they were being attacked by the sneaky mine into their Citadel until the city was already taken care of all the doubts that you like, but it works. Dr G 25:19 According to Livy. Hey, all right, Dr Rad 25:23 gets his information from Augustus Caesar. Thank you very much. And that should be good enough for you. Alrighty, what? Anyway, so, back in Rome, we forget about this very quickly. We're back to the senses. Oh, yeah. So we've got our senses. This is apparently when they approve a public building the villa publica. Okay, which is set up in the Campus Martius. And it is in this year that the census was taken there for the first time. Now, I believe that this building, unfortunately, no longer remains. But we have a rough idea of what it looks like because it has appeared on some coins, I think. Dr G 26:09 Okay, so this Philip publica is supposed to be the spot where the census is now conducted. It is like rock up to the Canopus marshes to be counted. Yeah, Dr Rad 26:16 this is we need an official building. Hmm, yeah. Well, fair enough. Yeah. Now, this is again, one of those years where I'm like, is at the end of 4:35am. I blending into 434? I don't really. I would, I would say that this is where I would end for 30. Dr G 26:35 Okay, I do have some more details. Okay. You actually, it's gonna seem a little bit odd, I think. But maybe it's in keeping with the fact that we're dealing with plague and pestilence. Yeah. But there is this idea that comes through in the scholarship. And I'm referring here to Wilson's 2021 book, dictator, the evolution of the Roman dictator. What a handy volume to have on it seems like the thing to read when we're heading into this kind of territory, yeah, but he talks about sort of Julius Priscus. dictator for this year. Yeah. As somebody who may be a candidate for being in a slightly religious position as dictator as well. Okay. There's this idea of a nail driving dictator. And you might be like, Dr Rad 27:23 what? Oh, he drives the nails into the walls of the temple. Right? Dr G 27:27 Yeah. So driving some nails in? Dr Rad 27:29 That was my hearing. I was like. Dr G 27:34 Yeah, so this is a thing that is attested in certain cases. This idea of I'm going to quote a little passage from Livi. The Senate ordered that a dictator be named on account of there being a need for driving a nail. Okay. And this crops up later as well. Right. But it's thought that potentially this idea of the nail driving ritual, pushing it into the door of the temple, yeah, is something that might be of interest and origin, right. which symbolises? I'm not sure. Okay. Yeah. Like, this is a detail that I haven't I haven't pursued in in its absolute form. So Dr Rad 28:16 you know, I feel like that's a question. I probably should know the answer to myself. I've just temporarily forgotten. Dr G 28:22 I mean, yeah, man, maybe hold that space. And when I know what the templates are, I'll just Dr Rad 28:30 okay, sorry. Yeah. So, Dr G 28:31 yeah, so this idea that somehow you can fix a problem? Yes, with iron and prayer. And it is also obviously has tangible sort of military connotations as well, because it's been done by the dictator. Right. So there's this odd sense coming through that we're potentially in this early period of the dictatorship, right. Like many things in Rome, nothing is necessarily just political, everything is bound up in ritual process as well. And the relationship with the gods and the dictator doesn't is no different from anybody else in that regard. In having to make sure that the gods are appeased. Oh, yeah. Dr Rad 29:10 I mean, all magistrates. There's always there's religious connotations to their role and thinks that they have to carry it out in a religious capacity, even though they're not holding like a priesthood or something. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Dr G 29:22 That's that's the only day No, I Dr Rad 29:24 like it. I really liked it. Yeah, keen to can hear more about the temple. Alright, so does that mean we can pass now on to 434 430? Okay, 434 B, C, E. We got Dr. G, who's the man History. Dr G 30:00 Ah. Well, in the spirit of things being complicated there's a lot of people involved. So it's 434 BCE. Yeah, I'd love to tell you the dinosaurs. How can I ask this has returned to me but he has not. But we have two pairs of consoles. Awkward times already, frankly. The first pair will be the pair that gives their name to the year. Weirdly, that's guys Julius. Oh us. patrician former console in 447. And last year. Yeah, and Lucia is all propolis we're guineas. Try Costas patrician counselling for 35. If those names don't sound familiar, I don't know if anything ever well. Dr Rad 30:47 This is this is the awkward thing about them being consoles, right? There is some there are some questions about can people hold the Consortium for two years in a row. But then again, it is early days in room. Dr G 31:00 It is early days. And this seems to be something like something funny is going on. It seems for some reason they carry over maybe it's because I've only completed Part of their term and the dictator has come in and gone but seems odd anyway, Dr Rad 31:11 or maybe it's kind of the military situation. Yeah. We'll talk about that a bit more detail. A second pair. We do have a second pair. Dr G 31:20 Marcus Manlius. Capital. Linus Russo. patrician. Yeah. And Quinta. So pikas, son of civilians, can marinas pride text Hodges, also a patrician, then we have some military children's with cultural power so this year is a bit of a feels like a bit of a train wreck already two sets of consoles and some military trophies with Godzilla power and you like these guys, they're not doing it for us, sweep them out, bring in somebody else. Then we get Sebelius Cornelius cosas Ooh, Patricia this Yes, Marcus mentally as Capitoline is also so seems to transition from being a console to being a military shooter with cultural power naturally, and also his companion. We just saw pickiest can Marino's protests TARDIS. Wait a minute? Yeah. I mean, why would you listen to going on? Yeah. Why would you? It doesn't make any sense. I'm not gonna pretend that this makes sense. If you've got a pair of consoles, and it's working. Don't change it. If you need a third person. Maybe just allocate one military tribunal or cultural power to join the two consoles. Why did they have to change their position? Nobody knows. It gets worse though. Yeah. We have a dictator. Dr Rad 32:30 Of course. This is the trifecta. 434 at the trifecta, Dr G 32:35 you can have it oh, just gotta keep putting people into power. Yeah, it's Mercosur millions. Son of markets members are kindness. Dr Rad 32:45 I always hate this name. Actually. I don't like it. I mean, they're messiness. I think we decided last time never seen Dr G 32:51 us. Yeah, I guess it Yeah, I feel like with Latin is like, do I see your dog if Dr Rad 32:57 it sounds very hip hop. I agree. Like the has is awkward to say. So I prefer my messiness. But it sounds like you know, most seniors, it's house. Dr G 33:07 Upper tuition. Yeah. They were a military tributing with consular power and for 38. Yeah. Appointed to face the threats of the fullest skins and the Etruscans. And also seems to be the person who limits the censorship to one and a half years Dr Rad 33:23 spoil my story. Dr G 33:27 Well, I don't know how it happened, and how that comes about. And they appoint monster of the horse, earliest stimulus to Bertus to Plutus. Dr Rad 33:39 I had no idea I was kind of like it. That's a bit like not a fan of patrician sounds like rice potatoes. Anyway. Alright, so I do have some detail about this year. Now once again, Livi is actually telling me a little bit about his source material to try and explain the train wreck. That is this list of magistrates that we have here. So apparently, Dr. G, it is like hideous metre, or maker. I mean, it's the saucy whatever. He's the one that says there are same, the same consoles from 435 into 434. Sorry. Dr G 34:15 Okay, so a source that's reasonably closer than Livi is Yeah, and we've Dr Rad 34:19 also we know that Libby cites this guy quite a lot. He's obviously someone that Libby relies heavily on. However, we also have the larious anteus and Quintus to bairro sources. Dr G 34:32 I did my study on these two, yeah, because I have nothing for this year. Dr Rad 34:36 They say that it is markers Manlius and Quintas or piccies. And they apparently were drawing on linen rolls for their information. And we have mentioned the linen rolls before. They are literally rules made of linen, with records of magistrates, etc on them. But both say that all the historians had claimed Ain't that these guys were, in fact, military tributes with consular power. It's a confusing time it really is. Yeah, like any ice maker, he basically apparently very confident with his version of things. He's just like, This is how it is. No questions to Barrow, however, apparently said that he was uncertain about what was the truth, like who consoles were their military treatments with consular power, who knows he was a bit more uncertain. Libya as a result is also in a total heat right now. Cannot make sense of it. And he says to you, you know what, this will have been a really long time ago, I get off my back Dr G 35:39 doing the best that I can. resources I have available to me, let's not get caught up in it. So I think one of the things to keep in mind when we're thinking about Valeria is anteus. And alias Toubro is that we're dealing with other writers from the first century BCE. So they're writing a little bit earlier than Livi. But they're writing in the same century as the beers. So there's Mesa Mesa is a little bit earlier than that. And so these two only maybe know quite as much as we could possibly find out anyway. And their chances of getting hold of better material is pretty slim. Dr Rad 36:15 I guess the thing is, we do know that whilst Livy gives us these little insights in his process, which make him seem like a decent historian, we know that he doesn't often actually like leave his home to go and look at source material himself. So I guess it's a question of we don't really probably know very much about these guys. And whether they actually did they like travel around and look at, you know, lists of magistrates? Did they? You know, did they have other things? It's they're just a fragmentary, it's hard to say, Dr G 36:47 yeah, they are fragmentary. And we're not really sure we have a little bit of detail. Yeah. Hilarious. anteus is listed as one of the younger analysts, which is quite cute. Nice. And he is thought to have only written after 50 BCE. De is very close to living. So and he's worked goes from the foundation of the city. Yeah, the hypothetical to around about 91, which we have a fragment for. Okay. So covering a good stretch of time. Yeah. But yeah, because we've only got him in fragments. He wrote heaps, but we don't have a lot of it. Yeah. And he was interested in, wait for it. He's kind of like one of those sort of military ask historians, he's super interested in, like, the distribution of troops in the provinces, things like that, and interested in colonies being founded and how omens are navigated. Right. So it's all like sort of process driven in a way. It's part of his focus. Yeah. Nice. Which is quite would be interesting to have more of Dr Rad 37:56 it. Sounds like a bit of a loss. Yeah, Dr G 37:59 it definitely is. And I think Likewise, with Ilyas Toubro. So he's a jurist, Rand historian. Yes. And he is the son of luteus eylea. So to grow, who was also a historian, and also a friend of Cicero, so like, tomorrow is mixing in you know, some interesting circles, definitely he fought in the army of Pompey at for solace. Yeah, so you know, he's got some experience. So he dedicates himself ultimately to jurisprudence, and historiography, Dr Rad 38:35 okay. Dr G 38:37 And so, this seems to be the thing that really drives his career is like, you know, being involved as a senator ultimately in Rome, but also publishing works, some of them judicial in nature, some of them historical in nature. So he has a 14 books that we know of Roman history from the Punic Wars at the very earliest, it seems, and it seems like he does become a source for others to use as well. But we don't really know the substance of like, what he was trying to do with that work or like what his focus was necessarily, okay, such as the fragmentary nature of the source. Dr Rad 39:15 Well, look, it's comforting to know that levy was at least using multiple sources and comparing their accounts. So for those of you who think Libby is a bad historian Dr G 39:28 I don't think he's gonna add his story and he's doing the best you can Dr Rad 39:32 because a lot of flack that you have to bid anywho so to return to what's actually happening outside of I'd love to know what's actually happening, quite actually. So the trust skins are obviously terrified because at the end of the previous year, the Romans have captured feeding the people ave a very worried that they might be next on the roomies list, and I think that's probably a fair assumption. foreshadowing for sure. To make fortune. Now this is where the Phyllis skins come into my story. Okay, so Dr G 40:04 the standard story again, Dr Rad 40:08 you could apply here it could apply, hey, they're feeling a bit guilty about the fact that they had technically backed out of an alliance you know they weren't there in times of need and the city they and the solicitor has decided to send invoice around to the 12 cities in a true area. And what they want is they want to have this council proclaimed for all of the people in a tree out at the Shrine of full thomna Bolton now. Now the Roman Senate are worried that tensions are going to flare up again. And so they decide that they're going to choose a dictator. Now that seems a little preemptive. I mean, sure, okay. You can see the Etruscans potentially rallying around Dr G 40:49 shiver me timbers, my bones, something's common a dictator? Yeah, it Dr Rad 40:53 just seems a little you know, maybe they're just getting into the habit of like a muscle reflex. You know what this needs? Yeah. So this is where we get Amelia is coming back into the story. And he chooses all this post genius to Virtus as his master of the horse, as we mentioned. So then we've got our Trifecta there. We've mentioned consoles, we've mentioned military champions with concealed power, and now we've got a dictator, the Romans are putting a lot of energy into getting ready for the war that is to come. And I can kind of again, understand if there's potential for the Etruscans to unite, it's not just going to be two cities that they're facing. This is a more serious threat, for sure. However, things are not going to quite turn out the way that they're anticipating. So I'm going to fizzle out quite quickly as it would turn out. So merchants end up reporting that the people have they had been refused assistance. So they're, they're not going to help out the people have they? Now, presumably, the reason why merchants are involved in this story at all, is because if all the cities are meeting together in a council, it might have become the scene for like a fair or like some trading or something like that. Dr G 42:09 This is feels like the first time we've ever heard about merchants being involved in any of these. Dr Rad 42:14 Honestly, I know specifically a thing anyway. And so their response the merchants is that you started this war all on your own, you're going to have to use your own forces, and not drag other people into the Alliance. Because you know what, when you started the war, you were probably hoping that things are gonna go well for you. And you were doing all that on your own, and you're probably gonna enjoy that success all by yourself. Now that you're struggling, you want to share it around, you want to share around that struggle? No, thank you, you are fairweather friends. And we have no interest in pursuing this with you. You had no contact with us when everything was going? Well, it's only when you're down on your luck that you want to speak to us now. So it all kind of fizzles out is no bigger task and alliances happening. There is no war coming right at this moment. But we have a dictator, we do Hurrah. Now this is a thing mercurous He feels ripped off. Dr G 43:13 But didn't get what dictatorship? Dr Rad 43:15 He wanted. He wants to do something meaningful with his dictatorship. So he decides, I know, I'll do something that will benefit the city of Rome itself if I can't conquer an external enemy. So this is where he decides the senses are becoming a little worrying things that need to be cut down to size, either because they hold too much power, or because they hold that power for too long pill. Danny, hi, no. So I would like to go into the details about the censorship in a sec. But let's proceed with the narrative announced so he summons and assembly. And as the gods have seen fit to take care of rooms, enemies so kindly and made it all come to nothing. He wants to put forward this law that's going to limit the censorship to a year and a half. And not a day more. Thank you very much. The law was passed the very next day because the people are like, yes, we are on board with this idea. You're right. We want to limit the power. I wonder Dr G 44:23 what we don't know about the censorship in this early period, because this does seem to come out of almost nowhere. I agree. Dr Rad 44:29 And that's why I want to come back to that in a second. After this is past America, Sam lays down his dictatorship. The people are thrilled with him super thrilled that they walk him back to his door like it's a first date. Everything's going very well. It's all very joy. He's a very popular little champion. However, there are some people in Rome that are not so happy with the situation. And you'd be right if he gets it. Those people are the sense. Dr G 44:58 I mean, I just got voted Didn't I thought I was gonna have at least I don't know, more than a year and a half to like, go around do my business. Yes. Got to build this building that's going to take longer than this time. Yeah, so Dr Rad 45:09 they're furious. So in response, they remove members from his tribe. Dr G 45:16 Oh, and lucky. Yeah. Okay. Dr Rad 45:19 And I also increased his taxes eight times over. Wow, ouch, ouch, ouch. Okay, well, you Dr G 45:27 can live with the power of the senses in some ways, but you didn't think far enough ahead, members. Dr Rad 45:32 So this means that he has lost the right to vote at this point, Dr G 45:35 it was gonna say Sophie is removed from his tribe is he placed into a different tribe? Dr Rad 45:40 I'm going to come back to that in just a moment. No. Dr G 45:45 So this is making him a non citizen. Dr Rad 45:47 Well, it's a weird, it's kind of like a weird Limbo land, in that he still pays taxes. But he's lost a lot of the political rights that come with that, gee, it's like being a woman in almost any period in history up until the last 100 years. Dr G 46:03 Anyway, maybe we can turn America into an ally. Dr Rad 46:06 Now America is apparently endures this all very well. I mean, this is quite the blow Dr G 46:11 really rich. Eight times his usual tax rate. Come on. I mean, furious. Leave me alone. Dr Rad 46:19 Exactly. Yeah. But look, he apparently is like, Look, I know where this is coming from. It's coming from a place of hurt and trauma. And he doesn't say, but he doesn't understand why he's being targeted this way. So he's just like, I'm going to be going about it. Now, that patricians come into the story. The patricians are not actually happy with the Office of sensor being restricted. Dr G 46:42 Well, of course not. I mean, it's part of their purview. Dr Rad 46:46 They are the ones that are sense. I Dr G 46:47 mean, it is weird, because he's kind of gone rogue, because we're Marcus is a patrician himself. The weird part seems to be some sort of fractionalization going on here between the ones that get into the censorship and the ones that don't well, Dr Rad 46:59 I mean, we did talk to him being an ally. Maybe he's one of these weird patricians that I know believes in equality. Maybe there's other people like him so much, not a quality that's too far out, I mean, more a quality, greater equality and getting close, but not too close. Anyway. However, they also are not impressed by the way that the censors have chosen to react to his Dr G 47:24 the patricians is the patricians Dr Rad 47:25 with a great yeah, not impressed by the home first by America is all the sensors that they just don't Dr G 47:31 like. And you know, what I'm annoyed, annoyed about this, this. And this, Dr Rad 47:35 however, they kind of look at it is like a column a column B situation are pros and cons. They're like, look, we know that we're going to be living our lives under the power of the sensors for longer than any of us could ever possibly personally hold the office. And that is dangerous. Okay, what does that mean? Well, I guess it means that you're always going to be under the, you're gonna be under the power of multiple senses in your life, if you live a decent, okay, Dr G 48:05 but you could only be sense of once at the very most, if you like, that's the Dr Rad 48:09 implication, or at least, if you hold the office, you're only going to hold it for a set amount of time, you know, so I think that's what it's trying to say. Dr G 48:21 But yeah, the legacy of the censorship exceeds those Dr Rad 48:25 exactly the exact wording here because it is a little tricky. Maybe we'll have a translation of it anyway, says, since each of them perceived that he should be subjected to the censor for a longer period and more frequently than he should hold the census office. They recognise the danger. I think that's what it means. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so then, there's, the people are completely outraged that America is being treated this way. And nobody could have stopped them at this point in time from attacking the senses, ripping them limb from limb, except Medicus. himself, of course, being very zen. Yeah. Now this is where so this is roughly where I think we come to the end of 434 BC. This is roughly where I thought it might be a good moment to pause and think about this position of sense. Because it was actually not that long ago, that we were talking about holding the census for the first time in a while. And yet, all of a sudden, here we Dr G 49:30 are, and it's now time for Census reform. Yeah. Dr Rad 49:32 Now, as with all the offices that we talk about, in this early Republican period, if you ever look up the office of sensor, you will see the same thing, which is that the practice vary greatly in the early periods. It's not as set in stone as it will become later on, where they you know, they hold it for for, you know, a limited amount of time they hold it, you know, this frequently, that sort of thing. So there's definitely some variation happening here. However, the general gist of being a sensor. It's not just all about data collection. Dr G 50:04 Oh, that's a real shame. Just Dr Rad 50:07 when you thought we were about to get statistical weed out. Is it religious? Yeah, well, it the sensors job is to basically overlook the morals of the community. Okay, which is why I think the patricians feel the way that they do about, you know, a potential threat that this division holds. Which is funny, because it got created officially because the consoles didn't want to do Dr G 50:34 that, like I'm sick of this paperwork. Yeah. Create a new position for this bureaucracy. Dr Rad 50:38 There's a lesson in there somewhere, anyway. But basically, yes, at some point it they develop the capacity to, since you're somebody I'm trying to over exaggerate my pronunciation of that. So it's very clear, I'm not saying since so, since you love somebody, the idea being that if they did that, then someone would be removed from their tribe, and could potentially, therefore lose the right to vote, because that is how you vote in your tribe. But you still get the incredible pleasure of paying your taxes. Now, this is the this is the Dr G 51:13 scenario taxation without representation. Exactly. Dr Rad 51:17 But you presumably did something to deserve that punishment. So I guess it's like, if we send people to prison, if you look at how historically we've treated criminals, sometimes they lose, you know, certain rights, not just freedom, but Dr G 51:32 the censorship functions as a way of policing, essentially, who gets to do what, in particular areas of society? Dr Rad 51:41 Yes, absolutely. Now, technically speaking, I think you could be placed in another tribe. But if they're obviously removing you from your tribe, because you've done something wrong, that is, Dr G 51:50 well, the idea that you could join another tribe, it's not like, like, you should only be in your tribe, your tribe. So if they remove you from your tribe, your only options are really to go back into your tribe, when they agree that it's okay to do so. So like, you can be like, Well, I'm just going to draw those guys over there. Like this is not your tribe. Dr Rad 52:11 Yes, exactly. So that's what we can see happening here in this situation. I think it's definitely definitely the first case, we've come across this sort of thing happening now, eventually, not sure about at this point in time, maybe at this point in time. They also supervise membership of the Senate. So they also Yeah, police their behaviour and that sort of thing. This is Dr G 52:33 something that the the senses are famous for, definitely, I'm not sure that we can really confirm one way or the other for that period. Dr Rad 52:40 It seems unlikely to me that that would be the case, but just mentioning it, because you know, it's part of the office, we might do a special episode on them later on. And they could also take the horse and status from equestrian. Oh, not the Bernese. So Dr G 52:56 take Matilda, how do they get to battle now Dr Rad 53:00 not like beauty, it's a whole different story. And eventually, they will Dr G 53:06 know Mr. Ed. Dr Rad 53:10 Eventually, they're going to recruit even more powwow where they're involved in kind of business dealings for room. So they can also oversee the leasing of revenue producing public property like lands, forest and mines, they can also arrange for the collection of revenue, they could sell the right to collect taxes to the public colony, okay, not a popular group of people in Roman society, and do all sorts of things like that. And so they eventually will get all that kind of power. But again, at this point in time, I don't think they have that kind of power, nor does room have quite the resources that would require this sort of thing. So this is, I think, a much later part of their role. Yeah, Dr G 53:55 yeah. I think we're seeing the stirrings of the what will become this kind of censorship with all of this kind of particular power? Yeah. Beginning to come into it's for clearly there's something the suggestion here is that there's an overstepping of the expectation of what they would do. Yeah. And there's an attempt to curtail that. Yeah. And so, and this is generally how rules develop anyway, it's like people do something and you're like, No, no, not that. Yeah. And then they put it on a stone being like, not that Yeah. And you're like, oh, man, exactly. Dr Rad 54:28 loves it. I always think if Augustus wanted to get his greedy little paws on the power of particular office, then they had something going on for it. And this is no exception. Dr G 54:40 Oh, no. The censorship by the time we get to Augustus the censorship is incredibly powerful. Yeah. But yeah, what's actually happening here in what for 34 BC. It's a little bit more up for grabs, I think. Yeah. So Dr Rad 54:53 I'm going to therefore close the curtains on another very confusing, mystifying Oh, yeah, in Rome's history Goodbye, 434 and hello to the partial pick all right, Dr. G. So the partial pick is where we sum up. Howard has been tracking for the last year or two. They have five categories. Each category has 10 Golden Eagles up for grabs, meaning that they're gonna get a score out of a total of Dr G 55:29 50. Yeah. It's a struggle. I mean, humanity's for a reason. struggle is real. Okay. Okay. So row, I'm not anticipating a great score. But let's see what happens. First category military cloud. Well, okay, actually, there was that whole siege and sneaky tunnel system. Yeah, that was pretty impressive. Absolutely. If you believe such tales, which I do. Read it in Libya, it must be true. Dr Rad 56:00 Yes, it was. I think that's gotta be what like a six baby? Well, I Dr G 56:03 mean, just for the sheer effort involved and give them an aid. It's like a total system like a mine under a wall to get into a citadel. Like, that's not easy work while you're keeping up the facade of a real siege at the front of this. Dr Rad 56:17 It does make you wonder, given that people have been very ill with plague recently. How are they so many people that you can divert their attention? Is it just one guy throwing rocks? Dr G 56:29 They're fleeing the soft leavings that they've created along the way. Dr Rad 56:35 Nice, nice, very elegantly phrase. Alright, so we're gonna go with look, I think eight might be too much, I think, Okay, let's go to seven. Dr G 56:41 All right. 777 is okay. Our next category is diplomacy. Dr Rad 56:47 Well, as we always say, There's rarely diplomacy when there's warfare in Rome. And I don't think that there is really anything to talk about. Dr G 56:56 It does seem like everybody was like, Don't drag me into your mess. And then there was like, maybe we could limit the powers of the censorship. And they were like, No, we punish you. So it doesn't seem like there's anybody negotiating anything Dr Rad 57:09 around here? Not really. So yeah, I'm gonna unfortunately, give them a zero for that. Yeah, Dr G 57:13 I think that's fair. Yeah, I agree. Next category is expansion. Dr Rad 57:19 No. Dr G 57:22 I mean, expanded out mines. Dr Rad 57:23 Well, look, I mean, they have captured for DNA. This is true. However, cDNA was technically Dr G 57:32 there's typically they had already captured it. Yeah. Like a couple of years ago. Dr Rad 57:36 Yeah. So look, I'll give them a one. recapturing there. Okay. Yeah. Dr G 57:42 All right. We're tourists. Hmm, how much of a man? Are you ancient Rome? Let's find out together? Dr Rad 57:48 Well, I mean, there are some things going on here. I mean, we do have quite a number of dictators to choose from. does it amount to we to say this is yeah, Dr G 57:57 lots of men in positions of power. How much we it was, I mean, it seems like Rome and chaos, Dr Rad 58:02 not it. Whilst there are some clever ideas and that sort of thing. I don't know that anything is quite at that level Americas Dr G 58:09 is quite popular. And I wonder why that might be. And I'm not sure that we've received enough information to be really sure whether it's from Dr Rad 58:19 iCloud class traitor. Dr G 58:21 I do love the class traitor. Join us in the working class. I Dr Rad 58:25 have no idea honestly, what he's up to. And Sibelius the dictator from the previous year like he has won an impressive victory, but there's no mention of like, a triumph for I mean, like it's through siege. I don't think the Romans respond as well to siege warfare of that nature. Unless you see Besiege them capture the city, and whilst you're capturing it, do something badass. Dr G 58:53 I don't know the requirements are so high. Dr Rad 58:55 I don't know. I don't I'm not getting a strong sense of that. Like he's being held up as any particular. Yeah, we're not really sure. Yeah, yeah. If there's a question mark. I think we'll leave it if in doubt, leave it out. Dr G 59:09 If it's a maybe it's a no, yeah. And finally. Oh, it's just like, it's just like online dating. It's the citizens go. Dr Rad 59:20 Okay. Well, kinda in the sense that, Dr G 59:25 I mean, they seem pretty happy with this since Oriole reforms, like the plague Dr Rad 59:29 seems to have lifted Oh, that's good news. There's their victory with feed and a which is good for them, obviously. And then there's also yes, as you say, the censorship thing, and the fact that war didn't happen again. Oh, yeah. It could have you know, it could have been really bad Dr G 59:46 or absence of Dr Rad 59:47 war is a huge positive. They wouldn't be ready for it. Oh, yes, troops were coming for them. And then all of a sudden, they weren't. Yeah, even though they're mad about the fact that their champion has been treated bad only, I don't know that that really affects their quality of life so much. So, I think to say maybe like a three or four, maybe Dr G 1:00:07 it's fair to say on the balance, it's like maybe a five. I mean, they had to do some generous military work, but they also didn't get invaded by all of a trio. So yeah, Dr Rad 1:00:16 look, why don't we say 404? Okay, well, I significantly better score has eventuated. But mind you, we have been doing two years Dr G 1:00:28 together. Yeah, they've got chance for redemption, two years of history. Dr Rad 1:00:32 So for these two years effigy, we have a total of 12 Golden Eagles. Well done. So not passing. Dr G 1:00:43 Still subpar. But there we have. Dr Rad 1:00:45 And you know what? I think we have fulfilled our promise. I think there was more cheerful stuff in this episode than the last episode. There you go. We're on the up and up. Yeah, indeed. Dr G 1:00:54 Well, it has been an absolute pleasure as always to chat with you. Thanks. Thanks. Until next time, Dr Rad 1:01:02 indeed. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. This episode we'd like to give a special shout out to Pete and and Gordon, who shattered us some coffees using our cofee account. That's right, you can support our show by buying us a coffee with a one off donation on kofi whenever you feel like it. However, we do, of course, have a Patreon account as well. And in return for becoming a Patreon you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and getting to see us in action in some of our recording sessions. However, we love to see reviews and nice comments in social media. So follow that's a bit beyond your means. That's completely fine. Or you can do it old school, you can actually tell someone in conversation, just slip it in subtly, partial history and it's a great podcast. It's how Augustus would do it. The master manipulator well until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome. Unknown Speaker 1:02:38 Hello, my name is Tom Dina's, and I'm the creator of the deleted legacy podcast. Join me to time travel together through food to explore archaea, astronomical mysteries, unknown herbs and long lost recipes that will take you to the lavish feasts of ancient Greece, all the way through to Ancient China and in the kitchens of kings in mediaeval Europe, who made the first reason why how beer was made. What is Garin? silphium and can I find these now, through the accounts of ancient writers and talking to experts have a dinner we find out so subscribe or follow now wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple podcasts, Google and Spotify. And listen for free, other deleted legacy podcast Transcribed by https://otter.ai