Latest / Only Fee-Only / #76 - Navigating the Complexities of Estate Planning and Elder Law - Jenny Rozelle

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#76 - Navigating the Complexities of Estate Planning and Elder Law - Jenny Rozelle · Only Fee-Only

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: How's it going everyone?
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the OnlyFeeOnly podcast and, as always, thanks for being here.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: In this episode we talked to Ginny Roselle and this was a phenomenal conversation.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: She's the owner, partner and attorney at Indiana State and Elder Law and also the host of the Legal Tea podcast.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: She was a phenomenal guest because we got to talk about everything from business development to her buying the business that she currently owns, to advice that she has and thoughts that she has around some of the software that are out there that are making it a little bit easier for estate plans and how those make sense sometimes and other times maybe they're not as comprehensive as they could be.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: So a lot of the stuff that you all are thinking about on a daily basis we talk about in this episode.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: So enjoy this episode with Ginny Roselle on the OnlyFeeOnly podcast.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: What's up everyone.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of the OnlyFeeOnly podcast.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: I'm Peter Travelo.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: I'm here at my co-host, brock Buckles, today.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: How's it going today, brock, exceptionally Pete, how are you Doing?
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Phenomenal as well.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Refresh off your GIF at the Colts game.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Here we are.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: We had a good laugh about it beforehand, but today we have Jennifer Roselle jumping on.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Really excited to have her on.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: She's an estate planning attorney, just a great voice, also in the Indianapolis area, but we know that she works with a lot of RIAs and financial planners, so really looking forward to having her on today and sharing her story along with her expertise.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: So, ginny, welcome to the show.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: Thank you very much, and I don't have any air guitar skills like Brock, so I hope that's acceptable with your audience.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: It's 100%, and you're a fun lawyer, so it should be a great conversation.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: I don't think there's any other way to be, but yeah, I love it.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: I love it Absolutely love it.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Well, for those who don't know who you are, you want to give just a quick like 30, 60 second overview of who you are, who you're currently serving and what your niche is.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so my name is Jenny Rizel.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: I'm the owner and attorney at one of the attorneys at Indiana State and Elder Law.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: We do only estate planning and elder law for folks really all over the state.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: A lot of my clients really prefer that, that they that they meet in person, and so I actually have a physical location in Fishers, indiana, as well as up north in Wabash, indiana and out west in Rockville, indiana, and you know I serve, I help clients that are in their you know, 30s and 40s that maybe you know just considered a young family getting some basic estate planning done, all the way up to individuals over 100 and, you know, navigating all the life issues that are relevant to to that.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: You know demographic as well.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, so how'd you decide?
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: you wanted to be an attorney.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's a.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: We got to ask that question.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm one of those weirdos that in second grade I wrote on some assignment that I wanted to be a lawyer, and honestly I'm sure it's just because I saw something on TV and thought it looked cool, like I don't have any you know, exceptionally cool story, but it stuck with me.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: And then let's see.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: After college, after undergrad, I was smart enough to also realize that law school is just as much as the financial venture, as it is, an educational endeavor and, honestly, probably more so.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: And so I actually started working at the law firm that I now own, and working I really really started in like more of like a support, kind of paralegal, kind of like role and started going to law school while I worked at the firm.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: So I went to law school in the evening, I got out of law school and that's when the founder wanted to retire, and so I always describe my I started here when I was a young buck, after undergrad, and just never left there you go Sounds very cool.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: You're very consistent in your like.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: Second grade decided to be a lawyer, did that, found a place, stayed there, bought it Love it yeah.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Second grade Ginny's very proud of you today.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very cool, I love it, and you're a Hoosier through and through.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if I remember, you grew up or were born in Green Castle, indiana.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: Yes Wow.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm, I'm from.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: I always say Green Green Castle's the closest civilization to where I grew up.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I grew up more in like the country of that area.
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: But, yeah, yeah, I've been here.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: I'm the daughter that went to the big city and never went back home.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Hoosier, through and through.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: I mean you went to Butler and then also I mean law school was also IU McKinney, so very cool.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: So like you're starting, I mean that's so cool.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: I mean just seeing like your progression.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: So you're starting kind of as a paralegal assistant, kind of Swiss Army knife, if you will really learning the business.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: But I mean, did you ever see yourself?
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, because you are a lawyer by trade and both of my parents are lawyers, but you know, when you're in private practice you are very much also a business owner.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Your service is law.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: So like, did you ever think you would be a business owner?
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Like, was there a Jenny lemonade stand, one you know time as a kid?
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Like, did you ever have that business sense or did you just kind of fall into it?
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: And maybe I more fell into it, probably more than anything.
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: But I also do things.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: Either do things at 0% or 200%, like doing things you know just enough or just like like just enough is never okay for me.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: So when I look back at my progression, it's also speaks to just how I am as a person, as a human.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: I've always been much like very education focused.
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: I've been working since I was 14.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: It's just like who I am, so it's also not surprising either.
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: So I did fall into it a little bit, because you know my little, I don't know how old are you when you graduate college like 22,.
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: My little 22 year old self didn't know I'd be owning this business one day.
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: But I'm also not surprised because I just don't ever stop.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: I don't ever settle yeah.
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Well, I just saw an opportunity to educate the listeners.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: I think a little bit, because obviously I want to get into the conversations that you have from like an elder law state planning attorney conversation, but like from a continuity standpoint and like getting the business and starting, starting where you started and now owning the business.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: What did that process kind of look like?
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Because I know we have a lot of financial planners that are listening right now that are thinking like I have to deal with this with business owners all the time.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: So how did that look for you and your firm?
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: So let me know if I don't answer this.
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: I want to make sure I understand your question appropriately.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: So if I answer it like some weird way, just tell me that that's totally not what you were expecting.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: So, from a standpoint of where I sat, I always tell people that the hardest part of my job is running the business.
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: Being a lawyer is easy.
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: That's the easiest part because once you learn it, as long as you stay up with it, you got that down and so a lot of now running the business has just been from experience.
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: Thankfully, I had the founder of the law firm.
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: She stayed on as kind of like a consulting role for a while, just to help us equip ourselves with.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, they don't teach you on law school how to you know like any accounting, like any like that business side or even like with your listeners just how you market yourselves and like just all of these very like real life skills.
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: They don't teach us that in the more professional educational setting, so we just had to kind of stumble our way through.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: We thankfully had the founder as like a consultant kind of role.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: But, otherwise.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: I mean that's about also when my husband joined the firm was when we decided to purchase the firm.
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: My husband joined the firm at that time and he comes from a you know family farm that operates as a business, so he was a little bit more business savvy than I was.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: So he brought a, he brought a skill set to the firm and to the team that just otherwise really wasn't there yet.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: So super thankful that he we were only engaged at the time when the founder came to me and was like hey, you want to buy this firm.
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, let me go talk to my fiance, yeah.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: That's another interesting part of it.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: I didn't even know about that.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: That's crazy.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: So you're in business with your oh my gosh.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: My poor husband, he's still going strong.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: And what's so?
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: He does a lot of the traveling to the other satellite offices, so today he's in our Wabash office, so I really don't see him all that much when we get home.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: So it does feel very like normal.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, did I answer your question, Brock?
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: I think I did.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: No, I think you covered all the parameters, including your husband is there too.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, that covered all the parameters.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: That's really cool.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: So the evolution of the firm is obviously you're the business owner, you're doing all those things.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Now let's talk a little bit about kind of the people that you're serving and what that looks like, because a lot of people think estate planning and elder law immediately is like older people, right, but I know when you kind of earlier you mentioned I'm talking to a lot of people in their 30s and 40s.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: What are those conversations going?
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: How are those going and where are they kind of like?
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: Because a lot of people think they don't need to have these conversations until later in life.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's also a product of now that we're in charge and the other attorneys here are kind of on Like.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: I'm in my mid 30s, my husband's about to turn 40.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: And so I think because of our age we have attracted more of that kind of younger side, whereas the founder she was in her 60s and so I think that kind of played into maybe that sort of stereotype a little bit more than what's going on nowadays.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: But most of the time those sort of conversations, a lot of those clients are most, most, most, most concerned about their kids and getting someone in a position to, if something happens to them, take over for the kids, called guardians.
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: I can throw around all the fancy legal words of like wills and trusts and all these other things, but at the end of the day that is what they are always most concerned about is the guardianship piece of this whole conversation.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: And so that's definitely the driving force oftentimes with that demographic kind of the younger side, because sometimes those that group as well they're seeing their own parents age and they're seeing their own parents health decline and it kind of is like an unfortunate wake up call of like yo we're not.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: None of us are getting younger and I, unfortunately, have been doing this for 12 years now that I've had clients passed away in the 30s and 40s and I've had clients have strokes and heart attacks at these ages.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: And so sometimes it's these like wake up calls to this demographic to say like, yeah, you may be young, but you're also not immune either.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: Yep, yep, yeah, the good, the bad and the ugly of it.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: I mean that's the thing I mean.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: You see, I'm sure a lot of people who you know they have like the forethought, they're thinking ahead, you know they're really on top of their things.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: And then there's the ugly where you're maybe trying to like unravel some mistakes or lack there of planning, but would you just say it like a high level, does you know?
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Like when is the time Do you think clients are?
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Just they're getting asked, or it's part of a financial planning process, or a personal experience, like a parent just passed away, like what do you think actually prompts people to say, hey, you know what I'm not going to say like today, but this month or this quarter, you know we're going to address actually getting our estate plan worked on.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's such a perfect question because I always tell people.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: Actually, let me back up, yeah, nearly any time that I tell people what I do like.
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: If I'm in like a social event or social gathering and it comes up what I do and I say, you know, I'm in a state and elder law attorney, like 95% of the time someone will respond, oh, I need to get my will done or oh, I need to get my will updated.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: And I always respond with why haven't you?
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: And it just prompts them to kind of flip that in their minds like, yeah, you know, why haven't I?
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: But in my experience, to directly answer your question, there is some sort of trigger to cause someone to finally pick up the phone.
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: I am, I can shout from the rooftops about how important planning is.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: Most people know how important it is.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: So I'm not, like you know, saying anything that's earth shattering, but the trigger it can be good or bad.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: So sometimes I have clients that are about to go on like some super cool vacation and like going to, you know, fly across the pond and be like you know, maybe I should get my stuff in order.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: So it could be something good like that.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: But it's also, you know, sometimes surgeries will prompt it.
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: Or you know, definitely, if someone sees a family or a loved one go through it, there's most of the time some shortage.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: And maybe another trigger is like a financial professional, like causing them to realize that they've got some you know issues going on that they really need to consider doing planning.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: So there's always some sort of trigger.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: No one is just, like you know, busting down my door to talk about this sort of stuff just for fun.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Insurance is the same way.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, insurance is the same way.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: How about, like this question Like how much do you think that, like some of these other professionals like our audience are fee only planners like you know, and obviously they're fee only planners than they're not lawyers and a lot of them they know enough to be dangerous.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: But like when do they kind of start bringing you into the conversation?
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: And you know, like no lawyer is going to do everything for free?
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: So, like you know, you also want to make sure that you're not out there just like kicking tires with people who aren't serious.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you are a business owner.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Like when does that kind of discussion happen?
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: And like what's like an ideal, kind of a handoff, look like, or as working as a team.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: I'm such that I feel like this is such a cliche answer, but it's true that I feel like as professionals, generally speaking, we have a duty to educate ourselves on behalf, like for our clients, on behalf of our clients, and so like, just this morning I was talking with a financial advisor that I met online through Twitter oh, it's X, I'm going to forever call it Twitter and you know he was just picking my brain and you know what would you do in this situation?
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: What about this odd and in situation?
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: And at the end he was like are you sure you don't want me to compensate you for your time?
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: And I'm like that's not how I roll.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: If I can equip other people to be more educated, they will know who gave them that information.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: So it's kind of a little bit of a you know good karma sort of thing, but you know a big red, you know huge thing that I keep getting asked about.
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: If you don't want to go down this rabbit hole, we totally don't have to.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: But you know what my feelings are on all these, like you know, online estate planning platforms and like when they make sense, when they don't, and oh yeah, let's jump down that rabbit hole oh Lord.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: You got some time, let's do it yeah.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: So I should say the caveat is I feel like I may be a little bit of the minority side, but I think I comment this question from my business owner hat of there's nothing I can do from my seat to eradicate these kind of platforms out there.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: And so what I have chosen to do is say how can I work with them?
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: How can I like go, you know, lock arms with them and figure out how, you know, I'll scratch yours if you scratch mine, kind of thing, and so you know, I definitely see that there's potential for advisors utilizing those kind of services, especially if they have, you know, say, clients that are super duper, duper busy or whatever, being really cost conscious or whatever.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: What I always caution people is you're never going to be able to replace what an attorney's counseling is going to provide.
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: So you just have to understand that that's the risk that you have to be willing to take.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: But otherwise, I mean, I don't have like a bad opinion on those sort of platforms.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: My best work is for people that those kind of platforms will not help, like beneficiaries that are, you know, minors, or beneficiaries that have special needs going on, I think, like addictions, alcohol, you know, all those sort of you know, or maybe we don't want beneficiaries to inherit in like this, you know, super outright manner.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's where a lawyer is going to best serve those kind of people.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: That's what I supposedly learned in law school, but really I learned it in practice, yeah, yeah.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing I mean.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: No computer's ever going to and these are touchy subjects, right?
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: And you know like, are these people capable of inheriting, said whatever?
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: How does it need to be handled?
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: It's very interesting.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: But if anything, you know, maybe some of these larger, you know law tech I'm spacing on the word for it right now, but you know they are marketing well and they are bringing attention to the subject and I think you might start seeing this is just me speaking aloud, but you might start seeing people who they've done it.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: That's like their entry level plan.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: They got something but they still know like, hey, in a few years this is going to get ironed out.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: We'll really get it done when we're budgeting for it.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: What are maybe?
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: some like.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: It sounds like, jenny, you're not condemning it right.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: You're like it's better than nothing but at the same time, we do reach a point where, like, all right time to do something a little bit more right, like it's yeah, it's like.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: When you said rabbit hole, I was like, oh no, but you're really, we're like, you know it's better than having nothing.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: But when situations get a little bit more complex, right, you're not going to be able to replace the counsel that you're going to get and the opinions and the dialogue that you're going to get from actually sitting across the table or the zoom or whatever from an actual attorney.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think the even.
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, if you got 10 attorneys on this conversation, you're probably going to get 10 different answers, because there would be people that even disagree with the statement that it's better than nothing, because you can imagine a client where you know, maybe they think the kind of documents that they're doing, or doing X, Y and Z, but really the legal impact is A, B and C and they just didn't know.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: And what if A, B, C is actually worse than had?
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: They just not done anything.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: So there, that's what I mean Like there's a lot of.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: No that is the rabbit hole.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: That is the rabbit hole, yeah.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: That's why I'm like it's just the risk you have to be willing to take, Like if it's kind of the classic, like you know, get what you pay for, sort of thing.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Those are going to be cheaper than someone like me Every day of the week.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: They're going to be cheaper.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah love it.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: So what are some like common, like misconceptions that people may have when they think of a state and elder law, like is it only old people are?
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Like you know what services outside that?
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: People like huh, you know what?
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: I didn't Recognize that it fell under that bucket of a state and elder law like what are maybe some outliers that you're starting to see more and more.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so probably A big differentiator for my practice specifically is that elder law piece.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: There are a lot of estate planning attorneys that do not touch elder law with a 10-foot pole, but basically every elder law attorney will do a state planning.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: So it's kind of a weird sort of thing but Elder law is really helping people Navigate.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: So when people don't get, say, long-term care insurance, I mean we can beat our heads against a wall and tell people that that is a massive cost that could hit them down the road.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: What I can tell you from my seat is most people end up in my conference room that they do not have long-term care insurance and Then crap hits the fan.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: And then they come do it someone like me, an elder law attorney, to say what are my options now.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: And when I say crap, it's the fan.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: I'm saying like someone's needing like home health care to come in or Someone's going into a nursing home, and so that elder law piece of my practice is really navigating and helping families qualify for the Medicaid Not Medicare Medicaid benefit and there's lots of ways that we can protect a lot of assets by playing still within the Medicaid rules.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: So that's often using like irrevocable trust planning.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: So that's a big differentiator.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: That, if that's a, if that's a topic or something that you know a client of your audience you know is something that they may be bringing up, I would really recommend that they seek an elder law attorney's advice, because in a state planning attorney Like if you don't see that they don't do elder law, they're not even going to bring this kind of stuff up Because they don't touch that field.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: I don't know if that's a different scope.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, different scope.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah different scope.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that that makes perfect sense.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: And you know, I mean you got to work with people that specialize in what you need At the time that you need it, right.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really interested in like the psychology and conversations and the way that the dialogue happens.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: And Insurance not fun to talk about, right.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: You're talking about morbidity, mortality, people passing away all this stuff your line of work also.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: You're gonna have some conversations that are not fun to talk about, right.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: So when you're sitting across from those people and having that conversation like, what are you doing and and how are you Explaining it to them, how are you making them feel comfortable?
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: For the financial planners that are listening, that are wondering, when I refer my clients to someone like Jenny, how does that conversation actually go?
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: I Feel like I have failed at my job if I have at least not made my client laugh at least one time in a meeting.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: Because and it's you hit the nail on the head.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, both of our fields are talking about not fun things and it's never lost on me what I'm talking about because it's I know it's very normal For me for what I'm talking about.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: I know that it's not normal for most people.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: I think one of my favorite sayings in the in the world is you, you have to be responsible for the energy that you bring into a room, and I often tell myself that before I enter into a client meeting, that it's my job.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: They there's that client is usually scared or they're nervous or whatever, because they've made up the stereotype in their head about lawyers and honestly, a lot of stereotypes are warranted.
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: I totally that's not me, but that is a lot of lawyers.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: But I consider it that it's my job to make that Vibe, that feel of that meeting, comfortable.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: It's my preference that it's fun, that's.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: I'm a very, you know, charismatic, personable person, if you haven't picked up on that.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: But I also have to recognize that some of my clients also.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: I'm a lot for them, and so I will slow down, I will bring my volume down, I Will go through things more thoroughly.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's just, you have to.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: I think it's just really important that and this goes across for any Professional is not just 100%.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, yeah, chameleon yeah.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and I'm convinced that if you are hyper aware of what you are bringing to that room, you will be doing them a Significantly better job.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: One and two, they don't forget that and they refer their family and friends all the time.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, listening is one of the largest parts of it, right?
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: I mean?
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: They always say like whoever talks more loses, and to an extent it's true, right?
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, how do you know what to say if you're not listening?
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Here's one now.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I love how you brought up that.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: You're just different.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: I mean the stereotype kind of like even with financial planners.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: You know just like older white men making decisions.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: So, like what are some other ways?
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: I mean I know the way that you markets awesome.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: That's how we've really met, got to know each other's brands and stuff.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: But I mean you're on LinkedIn.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: You know an ex Twitter.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: You know you have your own podcast.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Like what are some different ways that you've been growing, just as you know a female business owner in an interesting space.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: You know how have you been able to stay cutting edge with it?
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: First of all, I'm really bad at LinkedIn.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: No, I just feel like X is so much more of my vibe.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: I am like an inform like and I'm over there on LinkedIn, but I'm much like Twitter X, whatever Is much more like me, and so I gravitate towards that platform.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: Like you said, I have my podcast, legal tea.
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: I just I don't know whether to say unfortunately or fortunately Lawyers often really stink at marketing.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: Like I said, they don't teach you how to market one your firm, but to yourself in law school.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: And I think it just comes back to my age and just like I just see things from a 50,000 foot over you, I'm like, well, there's no one out there, why can't I be the one that's?
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: stealing all that and so I think you know, if I had to generally respond to that, I would just say I just do things different, like in all facets of how I operate personally and professionally, mainly professionally from this center, from this conversation, I just do things different.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: I talk to like I don't use fancy words, I am very relatable and very personable.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: My office we do everything flat fee, do a free initial meeting, like we just do things different.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a beautiful thing for I mean, like there's something to be said for the Midwest, like treatment, right.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Like like wrote it down in second grade country girl turn lawyer, came to the big city but still has the country girl values.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: I love it's cool.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: I mean it really is.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, makes you more personable.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: I totally have to interrupt you and tell you the country girl, never.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: I actually live on a farm.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm from a small town, worked on farms in high school.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Totally relatable I get it.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: I get it.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: Jenny's making me want to buy an estate plan and I'm single in 27.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, you have, we always joke, we always joke.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: When we first met each other, I was like this kid from a country town borrowing my dad's suit to do an internship and he's from Jersey and Carmel.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: I'm like who is this guy?
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: So, and it's worked out beautifully, but it's like it's funny.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, we all come from different backgrounds and that all contributes to who we ultimately become and you could appreciate everybody from where they come from.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: So I think I think that's a really cool piece of your story.
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you want me to send you pictures of my cows so you can put it on your podcast.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: We will.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: We might put a little bit of straw hat on you for the thumbnail, like just yeah, yeah.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Well, Brock is an urban cowboy and has his Dodge Ram.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: So if you ever need a truck, that is true.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, brock, I can put dirt on it yeah you can finally use the thing, love it.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: So a couple more questions.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Where do you see the firm going in the next few years?
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: I mean I know you got a good size team already.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: What's the future look like?
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: And I mean you guys are mainly in Indiana, but like what other states are you guys helping in?
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: So lawyers are weird and that we can only, we're only allowed to help people.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: Lawyers are weird generally speaking, yeah both my parents are lawyers.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, hopefully they would agree with that statement.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: So I'm only licensed in Indiana, and so I can only help.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: Like I have no desire to take the bar exam again in another state.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: I took, like, the old school bar exam, where they just don't make it easy on us that took the old school bar exam to be able to get licensed in other states.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: The new bar exam that they're taking now it's really easy to get licensed in other states.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: So I digress, but you know from a, you know in a year, five years, 10 years, whatever I describe my husband and I as like bright-eyed and bushy tail.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: We're ready to like take over the state.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: Be like the.
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: You know, when people think estate planning, elder law in Indiana, like my firm, is the one that they think of and where we really see our growth occurring is.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: Our Fisher's office is like the main hub.
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: It's like the, where most of the team members work, and then the Rockville and Wabash offices are just satellite locations.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: Our growth strategy is to I always say, go where they're not.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: So in the Rockville and Wabash communities we're like the only show in town.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: People trust us because we go to those small towns and then we go home at night Like we're not going to see them at the local fish fry, or like the granddaughter's baseball, or grand, I guess the granddaughter could play baseball.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Anyway, we go because a lot of times in my field people are disclosing some pretty heavy stuff, so they really like that.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: So we're.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: Our growth strategy is really to open office locations in other parts of the state that just need a resource, like me they're and they're.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: They're so needed in those smaller communities.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Well, and it's appreciated too.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: And that goes back to like I speak plainly, I'm not trying to use all of these fancy terms Like I'm talking.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: The first and foremost, we're both humans.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: I just happen to have an expertise in law because that's what I went to college for.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah Right, so we're both human level and then we can get into all of the other stuff.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: So that would obviously give you an advantage over, you know, some big wigs, slick back hair, nothing to get slick back hair, but like you know what I mean, like walking in with a pinstripe suit.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: You know that is just trying to talk over these people's heads and they're just like a lot of them are small time or farmers, or people that are blue collar workers that just make an honest living and need honest advice about the people that they love and care about.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: Exactly, I just mic drop right there, right there, yep.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: Well, anything else that you wanted to make sure you shared before you came on, jenny?
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I feel like if I said anything, we'd start going down a rabbit hole.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: So we probably shouldn't.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: That's fair, that's fair.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Well, so everybody can follow along.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: I know we kind of mentioned it, but talk about your social media.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Where can people follow along?
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: And then one more mention of your podcast.
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so um firm wise, ndnsd and elder law we have an awesome website, ndnsd elder lawcom.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: Or social wise we have all of our like firm, you know, social pages, but me specifically, like I said, linkedin.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: I think I am Jennifer Roselle.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: Over there I go by Jenny, everyone calls me Jenny and then on X I'm Jenny Roselle as well.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, and my podcast Legal T T-E-A, not just a T um T-E-A yeah.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Very cool, love it.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: So, jenny, thank you so much for coming on sharing your background and your expertise.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Really enjoyed it.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: I know it probably was too much fun, no, that was great If that's possible.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: It was a good way to spend the day.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Thanks a lot.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: Thank you.