Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / Star Trek: Nemesis (2002) - Stuart Baird | Houselights #179

Transcript

Star Trek: Nemesis (2002) - Stuart Baird | Houselights #179 · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

0:03
Welcome to the NED party. Hello everybody at home, and welcome to House
0:22
Lights, specifically the House of Baird. Stuart Baird and we were talking about
0:26
two thousand and two's Star Trek Nemesis, his last film to date that he
0:32
directed, and the final chapter of House of Baird. And I am joined
0:38
as I always am, by John Mills and Darren Moser. My name is
0:42
Tristan Rudel, and we are super excited to talk about this one because this
0:47
is out of the three movies that he's done, this is a very different
0:52
feature and this one has a lot of history with Star Trek, and all
0:58
three of us are big Star Trek fans and actually met, you know,
1:03
like online in a Star Trek fandom space on a Star Trek podcasting network,
1:07
and you know, like we all kind of got started that way, and
1:11
you know, we all kind of got into each other's circles that way,
1:15
and I you know, like there's there's one guy, even though it's interesting
1:19
because Darren, you're literally a member of the five oh first, but yet
1:22
John defines himself more as a Star Wars fan because he thinks that makes him
1:26
better podcast. So I didn't now hang on, I don't say it that
1:32
way because I think it makes me better. I'm better than you and I'm
1:36
a Star Wars fan, so fair important distinction. You know what, I
1:41
took it too far. You're right, You're right. So this was This
1:47
was the last feature film outing of the TNNG crew. This was going to
1:53
be the last outing for everybody involved up and at this moment everyone thought this
1:59
was going to be the last bit. Uh. This was again in two
2:01
thousand and two. This was written by John Logan and this was starring the
2:07
you Know Him you Love Him, Patrick Stewart, Jonathan Frakes, Prince Spiner,
2:09
LeVar Burton, Michael Doran, Marina Curtis Gates McFadden and because there was
2:17
Honestly, for a while, I was like, is Beverly in this movie?
2:23
Once again? She gets screwed? She explained what temporal DNA was.
2:29
Okay, that's important, but I physically was thinking for a moment as I'm
2:36
watching this, I'm like, you know, except for the wedding, I
2:38
haven't not seen Beverly, Like, is she on the enterprise right now?
2:43
I'm pretty sure she is, But man, gosh, now I know that
2:46
this is a director focused podcast and we try to stay on track as much
2:51
as possible to talk about the director himself herself, whomselves themselves and uh,
2:57
you know, like talk about their works and their style and everything like that.
3:00
There's gonna be a lot of side stories here about Star Trek in general
3:04
and Gates McFadden getting the shaft once again in the in the movie verse is
3:10
going to be brought up. But what I was going to say before Darren
3:14
so rudely interrupted me, was that the big one, the Vallid Point once
3:19
the freaking again the unknown Tom Hardy was bad guy. And I remember seeing
3:29
this and you know, like I remember, Okay, so when this came
3:32
out, this one, I was a sophomore in high school and the internet
3:37
was newish and everybody was on dial up and I could get the trailer for
3:43
Star Trek Nemesis. I could download it, and it took like half a
3:46
day in order to download this fort ADP trailer. And I remember being enraptured
3:53
by the bad guy. Immediately. I was like, Oh, this guy
3:55
is gonna be cool. I like this guy. I like his verve so
4:00
naturally I saw this in theaters with bells on. John, what about you?
4:03
Did you see this in theaters? Where did you wait for a rental?
4:08
Tell me the story. I saw this in theaters with my cousin Rob,
4:11
who was like the trekky I knew growing up, so we were all
4:15
we were excited. We were like, yeah, Star Trek, We're two
4:18
people in the movie theater without many others here. Yeah, but we were
4:25
excited. And I remember seeing it in the theater and I know, we'll
4:28
get into this and everything, but like part of part of that is your
4:30
first reaction. And I remember walking out and it wasn't quite what I was
4:35
expecting. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it. And you
4:41
got to keep in mind the first Star Trek film I ever saw in movie
4:44
theaters was Star Trek five. I was a young lad and I came out
4:47
of Star Trek five. I was a very young boy and I came out
4:51
of Star Trek five and I was like, I love seeing that in the
4:54
theater. I had a great time. This is great, isn't it?
4:57
Uncle John? And I remember Uncle John and the aforementioned Robert were there and
5:00
my brother were there, and I was like, isn't this great? And
5:04
both Robert and Uncle John looked at me and they went, well, I'm
5:06
glad you liked it. You know. It was that sort of vibe,
5:10
and we had a similar sort of vibe coming out of Nemesis, where it
5:12
was like, well I like that part. Yeah, you like that part
5:14
too, right, Yeah, yeah, that was good. That was sort
5:16
of us walking out of the theater. Darren, how about you? Yeah?
5:19
No, I man, late late nineties, early two thousand, Darren
5:25
was neck deep in Star Trek. I got the play sets, I got
5:28
the play I got all of it, and yeah, I was where I'm
5:32
trying to think if this even had him in that showing that was definitely more
5:35
of a Star Wars thing, but if this had one, I probably went
5:39
to it. It probably didn't. It wasn't really the kind of thing that
5:42
Star Trek did. But yeah, I remember I was like start, you
5:46
know, back in the movie. And I've tried to think, because like,
5:51
the first Star Trek movie I saw in theaters would have been Generations,
5:56
and I remember that like Event and then First Contact. I remember Insurrection being
6:01
kind of like, Okay, you know, we're hoping it wasn't terrible,
6:04
but it wasn't as good as First Contact, and so we're kind of hoping
6:08
that we return to form. We get our star Trek six. We're sending
6:12
off the crew. You know, TNG had been off the air at this
6:15
point, you know, so we want to you know, they're back on
6:17
the big screen. We got to figure out why Wharf's there again. It's
6:20
all going to be great. But yeah, I'm trying to remember my take
6:27
on it back then. It was twenty two years ago, so I'm maam
6:30
stretching back just a little bit. But I remember not hating it, like
6:35
kind of enjoying it again just as it kind of washed over me. But
6:40
I think I definitely had that same kind of wanting more like it. It
6:46
It could have been like the pieces of the story were there, it just
6:50
didn't quite click. It's probably my general general vibe, and we'll see if
6:56
that's still a vibe at the end of this episode. I think that's a
6:59
pretty good summation there. It's just like none of us were like, oh
7:02
my god, that was garbage. I hated this, you know, like
7:06
I, you know, like I want to start a protest against Paramount or
7:10
anything like that. It was pretty much just like, all right, Okay,
7:13
I guess we wanted more. You know, like, I think that's
7:15
that's what struck a chord with me, Darren, is what you said.
7:16
You're just like, yeah, you kind you walked away thinking that's it all
7:20
right, and uh we kind of went from there and we're just like,
7:25
this is this is the end. This is the end. So when you
7:29
look at the behind the scenes of this movie, you know, like it's
7:32
kind of confusing as to how Stuart Baird got this. You know, he's
7:39
not a Star Trek fan, and we know from Abrams that that's not a
7:42
prerequisite. But not only did he not not only is he not a Star
7:46
Trek fan, he didn't like the idea of directing something, directing a story
7:51
that had a pre existing franchise. Yeah, that like a yeah, I
7:57
think you mythos a pre existing mythos where you had to like he had to
8:00
respect the backstore, the pre existing backstory of characters. Can't kill any of
8:03
these characters because they're Oh but no, like like he hated that he had
8:09
to use pre existing sets he had, he hated that he had to use
8:11
the enterprise E and everything like that. I'm just like, why the freaking
8:16
hell is this? Why did you take this movie? And like what why
8:20
did Berman offer it to him? And then why you know, like why
8:22
did they take it? So all that I can gather from like rumors and
8:26
little bits of pieces and everything like that is that. Apparently Baar did some
8:31
work for Paramount. I think recutting Mission Impossible too. It was Mission Possible
8:37
too, and one other thing I can't remember what it was, but it
8:41
was like they they he was an editing doctor for two films, and I
8:46
think it was a backdoor deal where they said, okay, like, well
8:50
we'll give you if you help us out, well we'll have you direct our
8:52
next project or something like that. And then he's like, and that happened
8:58
to be Nemesis, and he was probably like, Okay, it's either Nemesis
9:01
or nothing. He's like, well Nemesis, okay, fine, And you
9:05
can't talk about directing Nemesis without talking about Jonathan Frakes, who has directed you
9:11
know the best you know, yeah, first for his contact and yeah,
9:16
so I believe he was busy doing Clock Stoppers, which I think was kind
9:20
of his first non Star Trek directed movie, which I also saw because Jonathan
9:26
Frakes directed it. That was all the reason I needed. Well, he
9:28
said that he wasn't asked. He said if he was asked, he would
9:31
have done it. Okay, I seem to recall and correct me if I'm
9:35
wrong, but I seem to recall that there was a rumor that LeVar Burton
9:39
wanted the job and Paramount wouldn't give it to him. No, no rumor.
9:43
That is one hundred percent true. Burton wanted it. He directed some
9:48
TNNG like and Frakes did. He went through the Star Trek school of directing,
9:54
just like Fraks. I think he did some. I know he did
9:56
some Voyager. I can't remember if he did Deep Space nine. Well,
10:01
but he wanted it. He was just like I want what Freaks had with
10:03
First Contact, and I think he had talked about it with Berman and Berman.
10:09
I think Berman wanted him to do it, but Paramount was like,
10:11
nope, we all bear to favor, so this is who you're gonna get.
10:16
And that's just kind of how it goes sometimes, Like I honestly would
10:20
have loved to have seen LeVar Burton picture and that would have been great,
10:24
it would have been amazing. Well, I think the thing that you lose
10:26
with Baird coming in, and I think it's very apparent from both executive Decision
10:31
and US marshals. And now this that Baird is not the type of director
10:35
who in pre production is going to try to steer the script too much.
10:37
I think if you have LeVar Burton in pre production, get that's going to
10:41
make sure that script is locked down the Star Trek before you even start shooting.
10:46
He's probably gonna say, Okay, you know what, let's go back,
10:48
Let's merge these two things. Let's rearrange some stuff. Let's let's give
10:54
Gates two more lines maybe, and Wharf maybe could move a little bit more.
11:01
You know, we'll figure that one out. Don't worry about it.
11:01
Don't worry about it. That's the thing is like, especially when you look
11:05
at and I know Nicholas Meyer. You know, he exists in a very
11:09
special place in the firmament. But you would think if Star Trek had learned
11:13
a lesson bringing in an outsider doesn't always work the way they want it to,
11:18
even if everything had been hunky dory behind the scenes. And I again,
11:22
I know, Nicholas Meyer is our exception. He's we got to throw
11:24
him out. He's the exception that proves the rules sort of thing. But
11:28
you bring in Robert Wise on the first one, and it's like, you
11:33
know, you've got somebody with a steam and and all that stuff, and
11:35
it's like, but not many people really love the motion picture, right,
11:39
I'm building to the point where it's like, but when you have Nimoy come
11:43
in and you get your Star Trek four and okay, Star Trek five has
11:48
its charms and stuff like that, but like, you've had freaks come in,
11:50
and even if you're like, well, insurrection didn't turn it out the
11:54
way we wanted it to. What have they got to lose by giving it
11:56
to somebody who is family freaks? Isn't the reason it's trending down right?
12:03
Is the reason it's leveling out right? So why wouldn't Paramount have the wisdom
12:09
to lean into it and say, you know, haven't a hard enough time
12:13
selling it, Let's make sure the fans at least are happy. And if
12:16
we have LeVar Burton direct this, the fans at least will show up in
12:20
force on opening weekend for this because we've given them another reason to love it
12:24
out of the gate sort of thing. Be predisposed to loving it. I
12:28
think you might be giving, even hypothetically Paramount too much credit. Probably.
12:33
I think Paramount in this case are just a bunch of bean counters that own
12:37
the IP at this time. And I think Stuart and Spiner were kind of
12:43
a headache for them because they wanted a lot of money, and they wanted
12:46
a lot more money, and they knew that they could demand it, and
12:50
like, negotiations went right up until filming, but Stuart and Spiner at the
12:56
last minute agreed to a pay cut in order to make sure that the film
12:58
happened. And it's funny that you bring up Nicholas Meyer because Berman went to
13:03
Nicholas Meyer first and said, hey, would you like to direct Nemesis?
13:09
This is most likely going to be the last TNG movie. And Meyer said,
13:13
yeah, I'll do it under one condition I get full approval of the
13:15
script. And they said, sorry, I already I already gave John Logan
13:20
full approval on the script. He's like, okay, go pound sand And
13:24
it's just really interesting. I mean, I'm looking the budget, so Star
13:31
Trek Insurrection had a seventy million dollar budget. Nemesis had a sixty million dollars
13:37
budget, So you're you're trying to do a lot with a little Paramount has
13:43
a fine tradition of doing that to the Star Trek movies as well, though,
13:46
where they're like, do this for a little bit less, do this
13:48
for a little bit less, and then have the ships just just listen.
13:52
You know. Nimoy was brilliant for having the time travel thing, because it's
13:58
like, fine, we'll set it today and there you go. It's like,
14:01
we just need cameras, all right, just and I'll do some cool
14:05
whale effects and everybody I'll love it. And it's like, yeah, they
14:07
maybe should have just but they'd already gone to the time travel card by this
14:11
point. They couldn't play it again. So they tried to play you know
14:15
again, we keep talking about Nicholas Meyer, but they tried to play Wrath
14:18
of Khan again. You know, like this this movie has so many similarities
14:22
with rather khn in the Star Trek fandom, in the in the in the
14:24
film universe, we've gotten three retellings of the Wrath of con which is pretty
14:31
insane. And when I first watched it, I didn't really get that.
14:35
Like when I watched in the theater, I didn't really think, oh,
14:37
this is a lot like Wrath of Khan. But like when I watched it
14:39
again at home and really kind of like soaked it in, I was just
14:43
like, oh, yeah, they just okay, Well, that's kind of
14:45
a right, I get that, but it's the key piece that's missing is
14:50
the fact that Saint John is a new character. So it's like Wrath of
14:54
Khan without the backstory, which doesn't work. We don't we don't know with
15:00
this is we have to spend a lot of time being educated on that.
15:03
And then, just like John Luck Piccard is expected to feel a certain way
15:09
about this situation because he's his clone, we the audience are supposed to feel
15:13
like, oh, these are the stakes and this is how he's feeling,
15:16
and it just doesn't quite pay off. I agree, it doesn't quite pay
15:20
off. But I will say that Wrath of Khn again is something special because
15:24
I hadn't seen Space Seed by the first time I saw Wrath of Khan,
15:28
and I still got it, and I still cared, and I still understood
15:31
Cohn. But that's because that was a really tightly written and well directed arc,
15:39
and I think that Logan's script is not really the problem here. What
15:43
I find very interesting is that Baird as legendary a film editor as he is.
15:50
I'm stunned by all three of these movies. I don't see that sensibility
15:56
payoff in a large way. And because I remember even the first time I
16:00
saw Nemesis, they are like one or two scenes, one of them being
16:06
Picard discussing why Shinzon wants his blood and stuff like that. It's one of
16:11
the few scenes with Crusher in it, and I remember sitting there and thinking
16:15
this scene belonged earlier in the movie, Like there are actually specific moments where
16:19
like suddenly it slows down and you have this quiet character moment. I'm like,
16:22
this doesn't feel right here. This feels like you should have juggled this
16:26
in some way or done a slight rewrite. And another one that plays oddly
16:33
is when Shinzon shows up as the hologram in Picard's ready room. He's just
16:38
there, He's just there, and and God, forgive me, I hate
16:42
being this way, but it was a sign to me that the movie didn't
16:45
really have my investment when Shinzon's there as the hologram talking to him, and
16:51
I'm just sitting there thinking to myself this time, how the hell is he
16:53
seeing where Picard is right? Like It's one thing to project yourself somewhere where
17:00
the car is not transmitting to him. So what the hell is going on
17:04
here? Right? I didn't even think about that. Yeah, I just
17:10
it hit me this time, and I like it actually probably took this down
17:14
another half. Starks is like, I can't like go with this right now.
17:18
And when I'm not invested in a movie, that's when I fixate on
17:21
those things. Right. That's the thing is like there's so many times when
17:25
like, if you're not you can forgive so much. When you're enjoying the
17:29
ride, you can like handwave so many things by saying, oh, it's
17:33
just a movie, it's fine, whatever. But when you're bored or when
17:36
you're frustrated, you start nitpicking it every single thing. And it's I'm not
17:44
like criticizing you whatsoever. I'm saying that, like, this is just how
17:47
we are as people. This is how we are with as movie viewers.
17:51
Now, one thing I want to talk about is there was again you said
17:56
God forgive me, And I'm going to say this here, God forgive me,
18:00
because I'm going to say a word that will just make people eyes roll
18:04
and then our chest will get tight, all of us will say like,
18:07
oh God, let's not go down this path. Is it mix a click,
18:11
it's close, it's quat low. Oh no, it's cannon. Ah,
18:18
I know what you're talking about. No, don't do this to me.
18:21
I had to know, all right, I'm holding on. I know
18:25
exactly where you're going. Go ahead there, Yes, So okay. One
18:30
thing that really bugged a lot of people is that with Nemesis, it disregards
18:37
a lot of things that happened in the shows in the TV verse. So
18:42
you have Michael Dorn, who shouldn't be in Starfleet anymore, who should be
18:47
an ambassador or some something like he's right, righty ambassador or something like that.
18:52
Something ambassador. He's working with Martalk. Yeah, he's working like he's
18:56
a he's a member of the House of Martalk. He's also an ambassador.
18:59
He's no longer in Starfleet. And I understand, okay, I'm I'm just
19:04
starting the conversation here. I understand why Berman did it, Like we all
19:07
know his reasonings. He's like he wanted to simplify it for the audience,
19:11
Like people who don't watch all of the episodes don't know he's going to the
19:14
wedding, like that's going to the reason. The why iswarf their reason,
19:18
and so that's that's one big thing is that, like you know, like
19:22
for fans would be like, we don't care if he's wearing a uniform or
19:26
not. Just have him be an ambassador, have him wear a sash with
19:30
normal clothes, and he can stand next to the to the new chief of
19:34
security, whatsoever, and just hit a panel and do whatever he needs to
19:37
do whatever. It doesn't matter. But you know, to Burman, he's
19:40
just like, now, I'm not going to introduce it in new information.
19:42
We have the photo of Picard when he's a cadet and he's bald. He
19:48
we've seen him several times as a cadet with hair. Again, this is
19:52
not a big deal for the average movie or and no one cares to be
19:56
bald, so people assume he actually is like patrick'syrut, which is ridiculous as
20:00
it starts. But as a bald man, I can assure you I had
20:04
hair at one point. Like, you're not born this way, guys.
20:07
I hate to blow anybody's illusions out of the water about being bald. Well,
20:11
okay, we are born ballar, Yes, you're born Okay, I
20:15
get that job. Everybody's born bald, but I'm not born with the horseshoe
20:19
male pattern baldness pattern, right, That's what I'm saying. And see John
20:25
came out with the horseshoe pattern smoking a cigar and everybody's like, what the
20:29
hell is going on? It was a pipe actually I was using a pipe
20:32
at the time. But you know, like it's it's stuff like that.
20:33
Also, like Wesley Crusher is there, Why the hell is he there?
20:37
Why is he in a starfleet uniform? He shouldn't be in a starfleet uniform?
20:41
Why is romy Lane's ale is still illegal? You know, Like it's
20:44
all these little stuff that takes you out of it. But then again,
20:47
if you ask the average moviegor they don't give a crap about that, or
20:49
they don't even know. Yeah, but here's my counterpoint to all of that.
20:53
By this point two thousand and two, they weren't in a position to
20:57
appeal to the average movie goer. They needed to appeal to Star Trek fans
21:03
in such a way that the star Trek fans walked out and tried to bludgeon
21:07
their their pseudo cash fans into the movie theater. They needed to win us
21:15
so hard that we walked out and we said, no, I'll go see
21:18
it. I'll buy your ticket. Come on, you'll actually like been wanting
21:22
to show you Next Gen, which just came out on massive VHS box sets,
21:26
So please, you know, but you're gonna love this movie. Watch
21:30
it with me, and then we're gonna go back and watch the series.
21:33
It's like it's like Wrath of Khan, you know, It's like they wanted
21:36
to be like rather Coom where it's just like, this is such a good
21:38
movie you don't need to know crap about anything that came before it. Like,
21:42
like my wife, she is not an original series fan. She knows
21:47
who who Kirk and Spock and McCoy are, but that's pretty much the extent
21:51
of her knowledge. I showed her the Wrath of com Con and she's like,
21:56
holy crap, that's a good movie. You know, she's just was
22:00
It wasn't a Star Trek film in her eyes, it was just a good
22:03
film. Yeah, And that's what. Yeah, that's the thing is that
22:07
like they they needed to do something that was such a good Star Trek film
22:11
that it transited into just a good film as well, so that those Star
22:15
Trek fans could do exactly what you're saying, John, And I think one
22:18
thing that comes to mind is, you know, in two thousand and two,
22:23
this is the fourth film of TNG, this is the tenth film of
22:27
the entire franchise. You're you're not going to win new hearts and minds,
22:33
and so you should at least appease your core base. Like you talked about,
22:37
this is not like Fury Road, where it's it's the fourth Mad Max
22:41
film and you're only going towards the core group. Like no, no,
22:45
no, Fury Road was going towards everyone. So either you go towards everyone,
22:49
or you go towards your core film. This movie aimed for the middle
22:53
right. It tried to It tried to please everyone. Well I think that
22:57
what it what it does is it takes the fan base for granted, and
23:03
that is why it stumbles and it falls. And it's so frustrating because,
23:10
like both of you said, there are there are components of this where if
23:14
you showed me just the scene, I'd be like, oh yeah, okay,
23:17
I'd watch the rest of that. One of those scenes would not be
23:21
the fight between the Viceroy and Freaks over the Pit of Despair. Which is
23:26
not only poor not only poorly shot and bafflingly staged, but also strangely poorly
23:34
edited, Like what the hell is even going on there? I don't even
23:38
know? And and that ties into another scene where Star Trek's not been known
23:44
for having sexy time. Oh my god, and that scene in specific only
23:48
exists to give Riker a reason to kill the viceroy, but defending the ship's
23:56
a good enough reason. So why did you do this? That's where you're
24:00
talking about. They're they're trying to quote unquote play the middle. That is
24:04
very obviously a note where it's like, hey, we've gotta make it a
24:07
little edgier, gotta make a little little edgier, a little sharper. As
24:11
we're in the modern age, Let's make that this isn't your grandpa's Star Trek.
24:15
Let's let's make this gritty and uncomfortable. And it's like, no,
24:21
you really just made it uncomfortable. Honestly. The problem is we spend the
24:26
entire time on the ship. I was thinking back to the other movies like
24:29
Generations, like the card is down on the planet doing stuff and we're up
24:33
on the ship. First Contact. Does this really well? Where you have
24:36
half the crew, like down our main characters on the planet doing something,
24:41
and you eventually split into thirds where you have Picard and Lily, you have
24:45
you know, the Bridge crew, and you have the planet crew all doing
24:48
stuff insurrection, even you have Riker doing the Riker maneuver out in the Briar
24:55
patch. You got the people on the planet. Great, you get to
24:59
the Nemesis, And I think this is the source of the Beverly problem,
25:03
that the character's not getting enough screen time because there's nothing to do because they're
25:08
just all on the ship and Beverly is not on the bridge, so she's
25:14
like basically doesn't exist unless we go to Sick Bay. So it it not
25:19
that you couldn't make it work, but you got to really write your story
25:25
around needing some engineering stuff with Jeordie and needing some medical stuff with Beverly.
25:30
And I know we got like a little dabbles of that, but I mean
25:33
more like you need like put us on Romulus, like have us help the
25:38
Romulin underground or something like I don't know, you were talking major like page
25:45
one changes. Oh, but yeah, big time. But that's I think
25:48
it's core it. You can handle that in an episode of Next Gen because
25:53
you have your Beverly episode and you have your you know, Riker episode,
25:57
and like that's fine, but this is the movie, so you need to
26:02
include everybody. And obviously by this point we all know, like it's the
26:07
Picard Data movies, Like that's really what they all are. I think that
26:11
that's that's the crux of it, Darren, that is the absolute crux of
26:15
it. That was the downfall of this movie before it even began. And
26:18
this is something that has pissed me off ever since Generations. And I know
26:26
that, you know, Data is the fan favorite. I get that.
26:29
I know that it happens all the time. He's the rcle, He's the
26:33
Sheldon. You know, he's the standout robotic character. Literally you know that,
26:38
like you know, like he's the he's the person who's weird and out
26:41
there and like people can project their own emotions onto him and own experiences onto
26:47
him. He's the Spock. I get it. Okay, everybody loves him.
26:49
He was the most popular character on the show besides Picard, and maybe
26:53
more than Percard. I don't know. But the thing is is that in
26:56
Generations, you have you know, Picard is the maincharacter because he's the captain.
27:00
But the secondary character is you know, Data going through his emotional crap,
27:06
and then in first contact you have Picard and then you have Data going
27:10
through the board emotional crap, emotional crap with the board queen, and then
27:15
you have insurrection with Picard and then Data, you know, like his emotional
27:21
stuff is malfunctioning and so you know, like his interaction was with the Baku,
27:26
and then you have Nemesis, which they they they're getting rid of all
27:29
the pretenses. They're like, this is Picard and Data strap in because you're
27:33
not going to see anybody else. Oh and by the way, Troy is
27:37
there just to get raped. You know, it's just and Data is going
27:38
to die, and it's just it just pisses me off because you know,
27:45
there's so much of it was a slap in the face, like you know,
27:48
like John, you talked about the Riker Viceroy fight. Like I remember
27:51
even you know, even my mother was was watching this and she goes like,
27:55
what a wimpy excuse for a fight, you know, you know,
28:00
she she was just like she's like this should have been way more epic and
28:03
way more intense, and it was. It's just I was listening to the
28:08
commentary and it was you know, like you know, Baird talks about how
28:14
it's like, oh yeah, like with the with the fight between Riker and
28:18
Vice and the voice ray, this is like the alien moment of going through
28:22
the as in like really Scott's alien like going through like the bowels of the
28:26
ship. And I'm like, go screw yourself. This was an afterthought like
28:30
this is not the alien moment. No, it's not the alien moment.
28:33
And as far as the violation of counselor Troy, I, you know,
28:41
there is however you want to characterize it. You can have her feel mentally
28:48
attacked without it turning into a salacious thing like it does in this It's such
28:55
a misguided, misdirected moment scene and on top of that, it's actually poorly
29:02
directed. It's not it's so clunkily put together. There are so many things
29:07
that don't work about it. And it's one of those things where wanting to
29:14
presume that nobody has ill intent behind the scenes and that there they have,
29:19
they actually think that they're doing something to you know, make it edgy and
29:25
make it accessible and make it cool. Right, I'm not assessing whether they
29:30
succeeded or not, I'm not assessing whether that was the right impulse to follow
29:33
anything like that. I'm saying there were so many different ways to do what
29:37
they were trying to achieve and in such a way that it would have played
29:42
better and built up instead of being curveball and it's like whoa, whoa,
29:48
what just happened here? Like, because there's a whole cut thing where hinz
29:52
On's like trying to speak to her before that moment too, right, So
29:57
there's like we even get a peak of it in the trailer. You can
30:00
see it. Yeah, there's at least like a build up sort of thing,
30:03
which wouldn't make the scene any better, but at least it wouldn't have
30:07
been like a splash of cold water while you're sitting there going what the hell
30:11
just happened? Right, But you can still have her even if it's just
30:15
kissing Riker and then all of a sudden she fred like, you know,
30:18
like take it back and not take it up the level, take a step
30:22
back for a moment and say, you know, not this, so we'll
30:27
get close, but not that. There's a lot of times in sci fi
30:33
where violations mental violations or other kind of violations become automatically analogous to rape.
30:41
Oh this this alien and impregnated trip he was he was raped, Like no,
30:45
no, no, no, he wasn't like this. This is science
30:47
fiction. This this scene in Nemesis what shins On and the Viceroy did Detroy
30:53
was literally that literally and it was It was completely unnecessary. And this is
30:59
this is one of those things where I'll actually throw it out there because we
31:02
talked about the NPAA in our previous episode with US Marshalls where I was like,
31:04
I don't get why this one's PG thirteen and executive decision is our.
31:08
I don't get why this isn't R That scene alone, I'm on the NPAA.
31:11
Are that's an R rated thing And it's like, well but we're Star
31:15
Trek. No, don't care. Cut that. If you want a PG
31:17
thirteen, you gotta find a different way to do that. Yeah, reshoot
31:19
it, do whatever you want. It's only PG thirteen because it is PG
31:22
thirteen, right, not PG right, it's PG thirte Okay, it's PG
31:26
thirteen. The only reason that gets away with it is because it's Star Trek
31:30
is because it's oh, well, you know, Star Trek's never are rated.
31:33
What are you talking about? Yeah, legitimately right, you know,
31:36
it's it's out there, it's not real. But there's no other way to
31:38
watch that scene. There's no other way to see it that way, And
31:41
it's one of the things that you know, makes me not want to watch
31:47
the movie ever again, because not just from the sense of finding the scene
31:52
objectionable, but the fact that it doesn't really serve any real purpose except to
31:57
have her say, oh, I've got a mental can with it. But
32:00
again, I've got like a thousand different ways I can do that. If
32:02
the whole payoff was simply to demonstrate that she had a reason to hate him
32:07
and go after him, no again, just like, oh, well that's
32:09
why Riker wants to beat him up. I'm like, well, no,
32:12
Riker wants to beat him up and beat him because he's going to kill everybody.
32:15
You don't need an added layer to that, Like, there's no need
32:17
to layer that one. It's just straightforward. The only positive thing that came
32:22
up from that entire storyline. I'm not talking about that scene. I'm saying
32:25
that storyline of shin Zoon's interest in Troy was at the very beginning when they
32:31
first meet Shinzon and he starts walking down the steps and he's going closer and
32:37
closer to Troy and we see fakes that move slowly across the room. Definitely
32:44
noticed that, I mean, not that well done for, but it's like
32:46
he's like, that's my wife. You're getting close to love that bit well
32:52
And if I had to rewrite it, it makes me think of some of
32:54
the TNG episodes where like Troy lost her in pathic power and how much that
32:59
impact to her. What if the Viceroy was more like a jammer, And
33:05
especially in the earlier part of the movie where Shinzon's does what he actually wants
33:10
is not known, so we're kind of trying are we taking him at face
33:14
value and what's going on? So if she can't read him because he's a
33:20
jammer in the room, but she's like, this is really weird, Like
33:22
I like you are like data to me. You are blank, like I
33:25
can't sense you at all, And that kind of also projects to you know,
33:30
so that becomes the whole aspect of it. And I'm being I'm rewriting
33:35
this to kind of remove, you know, that whole bedroom scene, but
33:37
you could still have that connection and the Torpedo basically star Trek six and the
33:44
Gashous anomalies. But yeah, I think, yes, yeah, yes,
33:49
it's my favorite story error ever. I know, I know I remember that
33:53
thinking about it, it's like, wait, who are the ones kind of
33:57
like anomalies that was here? Something from draft one made it through to the
34:00
end. That's fine, having a good time, but yeah, I like
34:05
that. That's the kind of things I tried to pick up on this rewatch
34:08
was like where are the characters? Where's the blocking? How are they shooting
34:13
this? You know, there's often like you know, weird like shooting through
34:17
stuff or the depth of field or how and are I mean to the positive
34:21
because you've kind of been ripping this movie to shreds. But sure have we
34:25
said anything positive? Yeah? Some of the shots, like I love the
34:30
flip over the dual data shot, and it's a great shot where you have
34:35
Before sitting back to back with data and it starts on him and then it
34:39
goes up and over. I'm just kind of picturing the rig to like do
34:43
that kind of word. And I'm pretty sure before was completely inserted that it
34:47
was a data was there for the plate and befour was was added in.
34:53
It doesn't really matter. It could have been either way. But I like
34:57
that shot. All the dual shots are really well done. I never really
35:00
felt like he wasn't with before in the shot, so that I give them
35:05
props for that. I agree. I think that the thing that sucks is
35:10
before I know, right, we're here, we are being I'm keeping the
35:15
negative streak going. I'm trying to pull the nose up, I know.
35:17
But but there's gonna be a payoff here. There's gonna be a payoff here.
35:21
Like with the B four stuff, there's gonna be a payoff and you
35:23
just started with. But the thing that sucks, well, no, the
35:27
thing that the thing that, the thing that sucks is because I would say
35:29
that the B four arc is one that is malformed, it's not. It's
35:35
just like the Troy arc. The idea is there and it's just it's just
35:40
right there. It's like you could almost see where it could have been better,
35:45
and it's just kept just out of reach. The duas is using Jordie's
35:51
visor to learn the shield frequency in generations, it's kind of the same thing.
35:54
It's the ball planted and like I kept thinking of that I'm like,
35:58
we've done this on the big screen. Yeah, I I The unfortunate thing
36:04
as well, is that my least. I mean, it's not my least,
36:07
but like one of the clunkier moments in the movie has to do with
36:10
the the finding of B four. It's so unnecessarily there, like B four
36:19
could have been rewritten into it as like, oh no, hey captain,
36:22
I have a good will gesture for you. I found another data blah blah
36:27
blah blah blah, like a trojan horse. It's just a little it's a
36:30
little but like you don't even have to do it literally like that, but
36:34
like some sort of a trojan horse sort of thing instead of having you know
36:37
what kids love today? They love they love dune buggies, and they love
36:40
going through Like I seriously, the only thing I can think of. Because
36:44
it's two thousand and two, same same year that Attack of the Clones came
36:46
out, they'd originally written this whole thing with like Obi wan Kenobi like rock
36:51
climbing, because kids were into rock climbing at the time. Unfortunately, cool
36:53
wor has prevailed and they were like it's not really necessary and so they and
36:58
also what a gamble, you know, for like Frisians on to say,
37:01
like christ, I hope that they pick up on this positronics. That's true.
37:06
It is kind of the long game. Here's hoping they pick it up
37:08
before they ever get to us too well. And and the more I thought
37:13
about it too, I mean, those aliens saw them in a spaceship fly
37:17
away, so there's a little bit of cultural contamination going on in this pre
37:22
civilization. I always thought that those this could be head cannon. But I
37:28
always thought that those people were mercenaries. Like I don't even know it,
37:34
it doesn't even matter, I don't I'm not even gonna finish that. I
37:37
always thought they were reemans, so you know, which, you know.
37:39
But but but but for for positive stuff, I think that, uh,
37:45
you know, a positive thing would be the score. I think Goldsmith does
37:50
a good job with the score because he balances this weird thing where there's almost
37:53
this like very restrained approach to this bombastic score for executve decision because there were
38:00
some scenes where I felt like he just took it straight from his other but
38:07
it's still second to last film, I think. Yeah, And I think
38:10
that Dina Meyer as a commander Denatra was really good. I actually enjoyed her.
38:16
I would have liked more time with her because I thought she was she
38:20
was actually very good. I think Dina Meyer's actually a fine actress too.
38:23
I do. I like her as an actress. Berman Okay, So so
38:29
Denise Crosby went to Burmant and said, I would like to be in the
38:30
last picture, like, if this is going to be your last one,
38:32
I want to be in it. And he's like, well, let's try
38:35
to. Let's see if we can find a place for you. He's like,
38:37
well, sorry, I can't find a place for you. Bull crap.
38:40
Like she could have absolutely taken up Dina Meyer's role. Even though I
38:44
like Diana Meyer. I think she was a great addition. Uh one could
38:49
have been Dina Meyer's character, Commander Dentra. Anyway, it's neither here,
38:52
no there. Positive speaking of Denatra and everything like that. I love the
38:58
Romulan Senate, love the visual, love the architecture. Loved that we were
39:01
in that room because we've never been in that room. We've never been never
39:06
there. That was the cool. It's like in the movie, like where
39:07
they're flying in to they fly past Remiss, like the opening shot is pretty
39:13
amazing, Like you fly past the dual planet, the sun's like right there,
39:17
which we're not going to talk about, and we go into you know,
39:20
through the clouds down to the Senate like it. It was an awesome
39:23
shot. I agree, and honestly like to I know, again't director focus,
39:29
but whatever, Tom Hardy's shins on is a highlight for me. I
39:34
really do. Like what do you guys think of Tom Hardy's shins on?
39:37
Because I love every scene he's in. I think that Tom Hardy is such
39:42
a great actor that it didn't matter who was in the director's chair. And
39:45
I think that Tom Hardy also at this stage in his career, knows he's
39:50
got to make this count. This is his He's like, I'm if I
39:52
screw this up right. This is a smart actor who knows whether everybody loves
39:59
it or whether everybody he hates it. I want them walking out thinking,
40:01
you know, but that guy was good, And I think that's Tom Hardy
40:05
pulls that off because he is interesting and he demonstrates what pays off later in
40:10
the career is he has a natural screen charisma, a presence that's very very
40:17
magnetic, and it works very well. I think he does a good job
40:22
in the fact that you're either gonna buy him as Picard's clone or not,
40:29
and he kind of I know, this is weird because he's the actor of
40:31
it, but in a way he can't control that. He can do his
40:35
best and the story does its best. But you're either going to buy that
40:38
or you're not. But either way, he's still acting his heart out and
40:43
giving it as all in this Star Trek movie, which I commend him for.
40:46
And there are scenes where I'm like, Okay, I buy that,
40:50
and then there's scenes where I'm like, I don't you're like that opening like
40:55
him in Shadow, like they're trying to create this mystique of like, oh,
40:59
you know, and I'm like, why are you not showing this guy's
41:01
face for like ten minutes? Like who is this? You know? And
41:05
then they finally, you know, bring up the lights and and they's supposed
41:07
to be this done done, it's Picard, and then there is, but
41:12
it's not because Tom Hardy, and it's I don't know if nowadays they would
41:15
have like digitally de duped and made it look like Picard or done something.
41:20
I don't know. The whole clone thing is again, it hinges on it.
41:24
But either way, Tom Hardy is acting his heart out and I think
41:28
he did good. One bit of makeup could have solved it. Is gives
41:30
shins on a really good scar right like that even traversed his face so it's
41:36
like we had a scar on his lip. Okay, I'm talking about like
41:40
like a really nasty pirate scar sort of thing where it's like, you know,
41:45
you're like, oh, he kind of looks like Picard is, Oh
41:47
he got really messed up one time, Okay, And he does say that
41:52
in dialogue. He does mention that, and honestly, that was enough for
41:55
me, Like that, that was enough for me to say, like a
41:58
life of a then the disbelief. I just never like could not see Tom
42:01
Hardy. I never felt like I wanted. I wanted something a little more
42:06
across the nose sort of thing, or even speaking of speaking of nose,
42:10
I watched this. This was the first time I have the four K discs
42:15
of the of the Star Trek movies, and this was the first time I
42:20
watched Star Trek Nemesis on four K HDR on a giant screen. Like his
42:24
nose is so big, but like it's clear obviously as clearly a prosthetic nose.
42:30
But this was the on the Blu ray and you know, like in
42:34
the theater and everything like that. I never noticed like in the in the
42:37
in the four K Blue, why you can really tell the makeup on the
42:40
top of the nose, like you can really see. I didn't. I
42:44
never knew that he had a prosthetic nose. Yeah. And that, yeah,
42:47
that is a Patrick Stewart original that they put on his face. Yeah,
42:51
got it. So they felt like he looked too much not like Patrick,
42:53
even though he's just bald, so they act. Yeah, I think
42:57
the nose really sold it. Like if they didn't put the nose, it
42:59
wouldn't have work. Like his ears are very different from from Yeah, and
43:04
his chin too, which is weird because they could like he has kind of
43:06
that but chin. You know, they could have filled that in all the
43:08
bit left. All I'm hearing is but chin. I think the medical term
43:14
is but chin. Yes, but yeah, like I so apparently, but
43:20
I don't know what to tell you. Behind the scenes, Tom Hardy apparently
43:25
never interacted socially with the crew, with the cast and the crew like he
43:30
he he walked on set set his lines walked off, and I'm actually in
43:36
the middle of reading Patrick Stewart's autobiography, which has been very good. It's
43:42
very long, it's very I got the audio book. I haven't been able
43:45
to started yet, but you know, he's lived a long life. I
43:47
would it's really it's really interesting. But at the same time, you're just
43:51
kind of like, let's get to the eighties and then Patrick Stewart. But
43:59
he he talks about how he said he's like, he's like Tom Hardy was
44:01
never mean, he was never hateful or spiteful or anything like that. Like
44:06
he just came on set, set his lines and left. He's like,
44:08
I never he said it was really hard to get a rapport in kind of
44:12
a chemistry and a rhythm going because he just wasn't invested. And we find
44:15
out later that Tom Hardy was really dealing with some mental issues and substance of
44:22
abuse during that time, like while he was filming Nemesis, and so he
44:25
would just kind of go hide in his trailer and was dealing with a lot
44:28
of a lot of demons inside. And Stewart I think he said he remembered
44:32
like on the last day of filming, he said to Spiner and Frakes.
44:36
He's like, I don't think we're ever going to hear from that guy again.
44:38
And in his autobiographies he said he's like, thankfully, He's like,
44:43
I was very wrong, and he got himself clean and he became a big
44:46
star, and it's just really interesting to see that. And he had like
44:52
he thought, like Hardy thought this was going to be his big break.
44:57
He's like, it's two thousand and two, I'm young, it's a Star
45:00
Trek film, it's a franchise film. This is going to be huge.
45:02
And then when the movie is tanked, he takes it very personally to the
45:07
point where he thinks about quitting acting. And because he's going through so many
45:13
substance abuse problems and so many mental issues, he actually contemplates suicide. It's
45:17
kind of like the a MODD Best situation. Wow, Yeah, with Phantom
45:22
Metas, I can see that, and it's terrifying and it's terrible that,
45:27
you know what we subject public figures to. Thankfully, he got himself clean
45:30
and got himself out of it. Well, I know to your point.
45:36
It is heartbreaking because these are professionals putting their heart into it, and when
45:40
people don't like something. They're so vicious about it. And the thing is,
45:46
now there's the Internet well becoming a thing and you're seeing, let everyone
45:51
rip into this movie. And I'm not trying to pontificate, right, Like
45:54
I mean, back in the old Usenet days in the early nineties, I
45:58
partook of the blood letting as easily as everybody else did. But like,
46:04
trust me, you think you think it's rough now, whoo boy howdy,
46:07
it was gladiatorial combat back then. But like it's still one of those things
46:13
where every so often you hear a story like that and you suddenly you wish
46:17
that everybody before they they said anything would think of the person sitting in the
46:23
room with them across the table. Yeah, would you say that I've made
46:29
mistakes? Everybody's made mistakes where you're like, eh, no, I wish
46:32
I couldn't hadn't said that. But like to hear it like that, it's
46:37
you know, because you think about it, not just in the case of
46:42
like what incredible body of work Tom Hardy has done, but this is a
46:45
human being who you know, criticized the work all that you want to.
46:50
But to bring it back to the fact that this is a director Podcast people
46:53
need to plug into what Roger Ebert said, which is if you have a
46:55
problem with an actor's performance, most of the time you should be pointing at
47:00
the director and saying, why didn't you give that person good enough direction?
47:05
Now, I think in this case, Tom Hardy is such an incredible actor
47:07
that it didn't matter who was in the chair. He was going to show
47:12
up and he was going to knock it out of the parking matage. I'm
47:14
find a story and other pieces that were really nottpicking, but I think that
47:17
there are plenty of moments in this where you can clearly see a director who
47:22
doesn't really care about the material. And I think that Baird benefited in executive
47:29
decision in US Marshals because those aren't really those don't have the emotional weight that
47:35
something like this does. And I'm not even talking about for Star Trek fans.
47:38
This movie is supposed to have an emotional weight about Picard feeling the weight
47:44
of mortality and loss and self reflection change, and none of that is there
47:50
because you have a director that's simply there to get the shots and leave.
47:53
You have a worker and it's clear, it's absolutely clear he does not care.
48:00
Yeah, and It's really disheartening because I mean we both you know,
48:06
I should say with both movies, not we both are three of us,
48:08
but like with both movies, you know, like there was there was a
48:12
level of fun. There was a level of excitement. There was things that
48:15
were like even if we rated it poorly or lower than five stars, you
48:21
know, it was a lot of fun at times with us marshals, with
48:23
executive decision, you know, like with it whatever, you know, issues
48:28
we had with it, we could recognize that it was fun. But I
48:30
think John, you hit it on the head. This is this is the
48:34
the ending of a franchise. After this movie, it gets rebooted. The
48:38
film franchise gets literally rebooted. This is the end. And it was we
48:45
were expecting Undiscovered Country and we didn't get it. And if we had a
48:51
director who cared, I feel like the I feel like the script was there,
48:55
but it needed a craftsman to bring it to life, and we didn't
49:00
get one. We got a worker, We got a utilitarian. We got
49:04
someone who he didn't even learn LeVar Burton's name. He kept calling him Laverne
49:09
on set. He kept not remembering, you know, other characters' names and
49:14
people's names. He's just like, yeah, you over there, Like that's
49:15
how little he gave a shit, And it's just it just really dampens the
49:21
whole thing. Yes, and honestly, it makes me glad that Stuart Baar
49:28
didn't do any other films, because if you can't be professional enough, who
49:31
cares? If you listen, a lot of us go to work and we
49:36
don't really want to be around the people were around. But you still make
49:39
the choice. I was I was talking to one of my kids about this.
49:43
I was like, even if you don't really care for somebody, you
49:45
make the choice to be kind and respectful, be better than you want to
49:50
be toward a person. Because every human being needs that acknowledgment that that you
49:58
know, that that you know whatever you want call it. They need that.
50:00
Every human being craves it. Every human being deserves it on some level,
50:05
even if you think they're an a hole, they deserve that baseline.
50:09
And if the director who is the head of the production on set doesn't care
50:15
to know your name, or your character's name, or your motivation, then
50:21
why would you give a shit? Why would you care? And so the
50:25
fact that Tom Hardy gives a good performance is shinz On boy. That's a
50:30
guy that really cared and that's why he took it so personally. And Ron
50:35
Pearlman, I think benefits from having makeup on because he's awesome. And I
50:40
think that Ron Pearlman's really glad that he's not recognizable in this because maybe his
50:46
voice I can tell it's Ron Pearlman. But you know, if you showed
50:50
me a picture of him, like maybe I see him in there, but
50:52
okay, that's fine. When we have the flashback scene when Shinzun's a young
50:59
boy and we see the viceroy kind of walk up to the to the romulant
51:04
kind of saying like go ahead, start something, I was just like,
51:07
that is pure Pearlman right there, Like in the body language, you can
51:10
see that it's him, and I really appreciated that. And also speaking of
51:15
you know, like of that scene, the flashback scene, uh, this
51:20
one felt like Baird that flashback scene because it reminded me of the beginning of
51:24
Executive Decision when we get you know that that weird black and white, stuttery
51:30
shutter speed, you know, frame rate thing, Like it was just like
51:35
this was this was Baird showcasing myself. And also also during that scene where
51:40
you know this is this is during the dinner scene between shins On and Picard,
51:46
where like there they do a really good job of framing the young shins
51:52
On with modern shins On presentations on and like when they cut and dissolve back
51:57
and forth, like the eyes staying in the same spot, and the framing
52:01
is very similar and it kind of like they're The blocking of this movie is
52:06
quite good, so I have to I have to give that to Bear.
52:07
The blocking is quite good. But that's pretty much where it is, like
52:13
before we before we we round third and get to our ratings and also our
52:17
Lance Reddick reveal. Darren, I want you to give me one big positive
52:23
about this movie. No, I think you know over. I also really
52:30
liked the Enterprise beauty shots. All the space stuff looked really good, like
52:36
and yes you could say, like, you know, a beauty shot of
52:39
Enterprise flag by check, you know, like it did kind of feel like
52:43
that at times, but you know, I mean, man, when the
52:46
Enterprise rammed the other ship, like I remember in two thousand and two,
52:52
Darren was like, oh my gosh, what is happening right now? And
52:55
then you know, science. Darren was like, you can't reverse off of
53:00
an object in space and it just pulls away. But hey, whatever,
53:05
Star Trek it was cool. But all the space stuff, it looks gorgeous
53:09
as it always does. It's taking a pounding. I love that they're like,
53:14
you know, hey, maybe there's shields on top, maybe there's shields
53:16
on bottom. Maybe we got it, Like turn the ship. I'm like,
53:20
brilliant Riker, turn the ship away from the part where the shields are
53:23
low. Yeah, all the space stuff, all the space stuff was really
53:27
great, you know, from data jumping through space, which was always cool
53:32
to you know, just the e was really just the battle, like all
53:37
all everything space. I have really nothing except for the pulling away, just
53:42
physics. But besides that, all the space stuff. I loved John,
53:45
how about you? I agree the space stuff is really interesting and fun to
53:50
watch. I think that, honestly, my biggest plus from this is I
53:53
do enjoy the score. I think that Goldsmith, in a very start trick
54:00
five sort of way, finds this really great spot to exist where it's just
54:06
bumbastic enough when it needs to be. But there's also this weird synth vibe
54:12
sort of like experimental stuff going on with like the the Romulin themes and stuff
54:17
like that, Like it's interesting to listen to. It's not just you know,
54:22
generic score two twenty seven like that that Q when they're going in Darren.
54:28
You mentioned that beautiful shot in the beginning where they go past Remiss and
54:30
they go into the Senate and everything like that. That's that's a really good
54:35
queue and like it gets me in there, and then the space queues get
54:38
me in there and stuff like that. I just wish it was attached to
54:42
a better movie overall, one more space thing, because man, I love
54:45
space. I actually was thinking about this when he goes to full Impulse because
54:50
there was an awesome fan edit where someone took the leaving Space doc at Full
54:55
Impulse and made it like actually fast because full Impulse is actually like it's not
55:00
Thrusters, it's like boom, here we go. And I was like,
55:04
oh, I kind of want to see that in Nemesis, like where he
55:07
because when he tells her like, you know, hey, Troy fuld Impulse.
55:10
Now, no, no, no, it shouldn't be like oh no,
55:14
oh no, they're gonna hit us. It should have been like boom
55:16
and they just like I mean, I think it would have worked just as
55:20
well because we would have all been sitting there in shock, like he just
55:24
literally impulse practically warped into that ship, And I think that would have been
55:30
would have been great as it did, but I think that would have been
55:34
even better. Eight tenths of the speed of light should be very fast.
55:37
Wait. I can't remember if we've talked about this on this show or just
55:42
with the three of us, but in Undiscovered Country, when Kirk says,
55:46
oh, yeah, one fourth impulse or something like that, yeah, all
55:49
startup fans are like, holy crap. Right, Yeah, it's like,
55:55
uh, you know. The impulse is like you know, yeah, thrust
56:00
are like parking impulses, Like I want to get to the other side of
56:04
the Solar system in a couple minutes. It's really fast. Yeah yeah,
56:10
I was so Okay. So for my answer, I really loved the the
56:15
intimate moments between people, Like even though Gates mcvahn had nothing to do,
56:21
when she comes in and talks with Picard like and talks about the photo and
56:24
everything like that, I like that moment like that, it felt like a
56:27
moment of saying goodbye to the character. Thankfully she got some redemption in the
56:31
in the third season of Picard, but the you know, everybody got kind
56:37
of a goodbye, you know when when they said, you know, to
56:40
absent friends after Data's death as a as a you know callback to Spock and
56:46
you know, Patrick Stewart and Jonathan Friggs as Percard and Riker when he says
56:50
he's like, you know, like you've you've been my right arm for fifteen
56:54
years, or I think you might have said that at the wedding, but
56:57
you know what I mean, Like that scene right before the end, right
56:59
before you go to the Titan. I loved the behind the scenes story where
57:02
Picard couldn't I'm sorry Stuart couldn't film that scene. He was getting way too
57:08
emotionally. He kept crying every single time he was filming that scene because he
57:15
loves Freakes so much and he loves the show so much. He loves the
57:21
character so much. They had to keep filming it until he could calm down.
57:23
And like I remember even when he was talking about the scene, like
57:28
there was a I think it was the Captain's table or something like that on
57:31
a bonus disc of the Blu Ray set, like it was Shatner ni moy
57:37
Frakes Picard all being interviewed and hosted by Whoopi Goldberg. He was talking about
57:43
the scene and he was getting like he couldn't even talk about the scene because
57:46
he was getting so emotional talking about how emotionally got I just I felt the
57:52
love from the characters, even though it was crappy direction from someone who didn't
57:55
care the actors, love of the material came through and shown through despite of
58:02
what was going on behind the scenes. So that's what I have to say.
58:06
So before we wrap up and give our ratings, John, who is
58:10
your Lance Reddick placement in this movie? You know, have a lot of
58:15
options here. I know Shin's on, and I would he's bald it works.
58:22
I wish, I wish I can honestly say that there are two possibilities,
58:29
and I know that this might not might not be the best choice.
58:32
Is John, you get one, you get one choice, leave some for
58:37
the rest of us. Well, I will say that my initial thought because
58:40
I didn't want to recast Ron Pearlman because I love him so much and I
58:45
think even though he's under heavy makeup, he's still Ron Pearlman and dig him.
58:49
So I would actually have cast him as I think it's Commander Suran,
58:53
the head of the Romulan military military, who's, you know, sort of
59:00
the impatient one. I'm going with you. Yeah, he doesn't really he
59:04
doesn't really like shins On that much. He's just he thinks he can use
59:07
him. I think he would work really well in that role. Darren,
59:10
how about you? Uh yeah, I'm gonna make him the viceroy. I
59:15
know Ron Pullman was great, but I think man just Lance Reddick with that
59:21
cool stare of just and this oh voice, like I would feel like he's
59:27
more of a threat, you know, like the Ron Perlman viceroy is like
59:30
I got a knife, Like Lance Reddick Viceroy is like I created the new
59:38
chancellor, you know, prey tour of of our government, Like don't mess
59:43
with me. Like I have I have political power, I have the ability.
59:46
I'm with Darren with this one viceroy I thought was the only option.
59:51
Like Lance Reddick absolutely would have killed it as the Viceroy, I I agree
59:57
that that is probably the best choice. I also would have and less likely
1:00:00
to question why the Viceroy had mind powers when no other rieman seemed to show
1:00:06
them at all. For any reason. The power I would offer. The
1:00:13
praetor who's killed in the beginning also would have been played by Alan Dale,
1:00:16
who's a great actor. That would have been a good choice too. Oh
1:00:20
yeah, and even the guy who played Saran Jude can never pronounce his last
1:00:24
name. Uh you know, he's a great actor. Alan Dale is a
1:00:28
great actor. Yeah, And we didn't we didn't even talk about the really
1:00:31
forced Kate mullgrew. Admiral Janeway came where Patrick. But I liked it too,
1:00:39
because I love Janeway. But Stuart, for some reason, acted like
1:00:44
he was acting against a piece of cardboard, Like you could tell he probably
1:00:47
he was probably acting against a piece of cardboard. There was someone off the
1:00:52
screen reading her lines and talking to there was some pa sitting there, and
1:00:57
it's like, oh, put card don't go there. You have all the
1:01:00
best things, you have the Stors and the Romulans to go against. I
1:01:05
think you're absolutely right, That's what I'm like. It's just the way he
1:01:07
delivered his lines. I expected more from such a seasoned actress as Steward.
1:01:12
I mean, I know it wouldn't have happened, but I kind of wanted
1:01:14
them to open up the conversation with like, you know, showing a matching
1:01:17
tattoo and being like borg buddies, you know, and we can assimilate this.
1:01:24
It's what it says. That's what it says. It's like Vulcan script
1:01:30
or something. The left arm says assimilate, the right arm says this.
1:01:34
You put it together and boom, No, man's tattoo assimilate to it's assimilate
1:01:40
on the back of the hand, and then this on the middle finger.
1:01:45
That's how you do it. Assimilate this. Yes, all right, So
1:01:49
I'm gonna go I'm gonna go first here. I'm gonna break with tradition because
1:01:51
I love making Darren's squirm, but I'm gonna go first here. With ratings,
1:01:54
I wanted to give this a higher rating, and I feel like I'm
1:01:58
being generous even with this, But I just I love this crew so much.
1:02:01
I love this crew so much. I start. I kind of took
1:02:05
a break from Star Trek for a while, and I've just started for the
1:02:09
past couple of weeks, started a ting rewatch where I put it on shuffle
1:02:14
and while I'm working at home. It is like a warm blanket. It's
1:02:17
beautiful, it's lovely. It's comforting. And even though I have my issues
1:02:22
with Nemesis and I have my issues with the movie in the direction, I
1:02:27
love it so much. I'm giving this a generous two and a half,
1:02:30
and I'm glad that I'm I'm allowing myself half stars. I'mlike, Darren,
1:02:36
so, John, what are you giving this movie? I'm going to give
1:02:39
it a two and a half. And that is, I agree, generous,
1:02:45
very generous, copiously generous. But I rationalize it by saying that Goldsmith
1:02:50
really just like Star Trek five, he gave the score more than it needed
1:02:54
and it was like, well, at least somebody cared very deeply about the
1:02:59
final problem duct right here, So I will give it credit for that.
1:03:01
So yeah, two and a half. Although between the two, I would
1:03:07
like to know from both of you, would you rather watch Star Trek five
1:03:09
or Star Trek Nemesis. Which one would you put in? Oh? I
1:03:13
love Star Trek five, Like I know why? Okay? Good? Yeah,
1:03:16
no, I have I have. Star Trek five gives me a warm
1:03:19
feeling in my heart absolutely, I mean like, and that's the thing,
1:03:22
like where the crew gives me a warm feeling of Nemesis. The movie of
1:03:27
Star Trek five, even though it's very flawed and there's so much wrong with
1:03:30
it, I smile at so many moments in the final Frontier campfire seat is
1:03:37
so great. Yeah, even Scotty hitting his head like I know, I
1:03:40
laugh like the back of man, I still laugh. It's a cheap joke,
1:03:44
but it's so funny. Darren, give us your rating. Yeah,
1:03:47
so you know, we have Insurrection comes out in ninety eight. The next
1:03:52
best Star Trek movie to come out after that would be Galaxy Quest in ninety
1:03:55
nine for sure. But yeah, now I'm going to give it a two.
1:04:00
And it's also with a little bit of nosalgia generosity. I was thinking
1:04:06
I was going to give it a higher because I had not watched this in
1:04:09
a long time, so I was kind of coming back to it. And
1:04:13
not that I didn't enjoy my watching experience. I think Wharf looks completely rubber
1:04:18
like. I don't know what was up with his makeup, but it looked
1:04:21
bad. They also artificially deepened his voice. That was Baird's idea to make
1:04:27
him sound more alien. It just made him sound not like Wharf dummy.
1:04:30
Well that's yeah anyway, you know, the more we go down the route
1:04:34
of rewriting, which were often very good at and making this The core was
1:04:40
there, it could have been. I don't think they had to throw it
1:04:42
all out. I think they could have made this. I really would have
1:04:45
loved to have seen a LeVar Burton picture of this story. It just hinges
1:04:50
on a couple of things, again, like the selling of the clone concept
1:04:56
and if you if you can't get that, you're gonna kind of just be
1:05:00
treading water the rest of the movie. And it's hard because you there's all
1:05:05
this other great star trek with this cast around it that I would much rather
1:05:11
like pop in. We didn't really talk a lot about Picard and watching this
1:05:15
in a post Picard world. I haven't seen it yet. That's why.
1:05:19
Oh okay, well maybe that's why. But all that to say, it
1:05:23
didn't really impact my viewing. I almost kind of remembered halfway through, oh
1:05:30
yeah, Data ties in this, like I had kind of just dislodged that,
1:05:32
and that probably impacted me way more in O two, you know,
1:05:35
Data dying, and I like their nod to search for Spock and Wrath of
1:05:41
Khan of like we're going to pick the character that has the potential to return
1:05:46
with before and stuff like that. It's not like Jordi dies, it's like,
1:05:49
well, Jordie's dead, because there's nothing that can bring him back.
1:05:55
But all that to say, yeah, two, it's I would There's hundreds
1:06:00
of hours of Star Trek out there that I would probably put in and rewatch
1:06:04
versus this again. But I will revisit it probably in another couple of years,
1:06:09
just as you know, awesome space scenes. For some reason, Scimitar
1:06:15
and Scorpion translate really well from Romulan. That'd always bug me a little bit.
1:06:19
But you know, all that to say it's it's not a one.
1:06:23
It definitely brings our crew back together. Is it the end note we wanted?
1:06:29
Is it the Star Trek six that we wanted to know? But it
1:06:32
exists and I'll give it it too. I still rewatch it more than I
1:06:35
do Into Darkness. Oh so valid. I'll leave that there. Darren.
1:06:44
Can you talk about what we're gonna do? This could be our longest episode,
1:06:47
This could be the longest episode in history. It was inevitable because the
1:06:51
topic was Star Trek. It's not surprising and a derisive Star Trek too,
1:06:57
Darren. Can you talk about where we're gonna do next week, because I
1:06:59
honestly can't remember well. Next week we're jumping into a new house with Spike
1:07:04
Lee, the House of Lee, with Do the Right Thing from nineteen eighty
1:07:10
nine. Here on, House Lights, Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.