Latest / Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney / Is marriage about to change forever? With Zadie Ward

Transcript

Is marriage about to change forever? With Zadie Ward · Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney

• 0:00
  You don't have to do all the things all at once.
• 0:02
  That is one sure way to burn yourself out quickly and be no use to anyone.
• 0:49
  I'm Becca Poundey, wedding business marketing expert, strategist, speaker and author.
• 0:55
  Over the last decade, I've combined my love of marketing with my knowledge of the wedding industry to help thousands of wedding pros and venues just like you learn new skills, strategize, get re energized and grow their businesses.
• 1:07
  Because after all, that's how you stay top of your game.
• 1:10
  Whether you're brand new into this industry or been here forever, I want to help.
• 1:14
  So grab a cup of tea or a cocktail, sit back and enjoy a brand new episode of my award winning podcast, Wedding Pros who Are Ready to Grow.
• 1:22
  Let's get going with today's episode.
• 1:28
  Today I'm chatting with Zadie Ward, a wedding celebrant from Milton Keynes.
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  She specialises in creating wedding ceremonies that are joyful, inclusive, meaningful and always full of personality.
• 1:39
  As a self confessed Disney and musical theatre lover, Zadie and I have a lot in common, so it's no surprise that we hit it off when we met.
• 1:46
  It's also been my pleasure to work with Zadie on a one to one basis across this year to help her stay on track and move her business forward.
• 1:53
  At the time of recording, the biggest shake up to UK marriage law in nearly 200 years was recently announced.
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  And as a celebrant herself, Zadie finds herself right at the heart of it.
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  So I'm thrilled to have her on the podcast today.
• 2:05
  Zadie, welcome to the podcast.
• 2:07
  Oh, thank you for having me.
• 2:08
  So excited to be here.
• 2:09
  It's an absolute pleasure.
• 2:11
  And we were just saying before we hit record, the timing couldn't have been better for us talking about the marriage consultation.
• 2:16
  So we're going to talk about that later in the episode.
• 2:19
  But first of all, I want people to get to know Zadie a bit better.
• 2:22
  So let me know your background, tell us about your career so far, what have you done in the past and what led you up to this point of becoming a celebrant?
• 2:30
  Yeah, so I first started out training as an actor, so I was an actor.
• 2:35
  Realized that that quite wasn't for me with all the rejection and the hardened ships of that.
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  I liked knowing where my next paycheck was coming from, but also liked.
• 2:44
  I realized basically that acting itself was great, but the industry and the job that went with it just wasn't for me.
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  So I retrained in event management.
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  I actually my mum gave me £500 as a sort of like graduation present when I finished my studies to go to New York with.
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  And instead I used it on a one week event management course.
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  So always love studying.
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  And I met my first ever hirer, I suppose job employer on that course.
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  So that took me into events.
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  I did lots of different types of events, incentive travel, children's luxury parties, family events.
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  And that then led me to mind the mental health charity doing events and communications with them.
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  And then I worked with the film and TV charity which was close to my heart being back in the creative sector.
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  And now I'm back at mind part time.
• 3:33
  And how I got into celebrancy is kind of really a personal story.
• 3:38
  I had a celebrant who I've met at mind for my wedding, my own wedding, and then a friend of the back of that asked me to do their wedding.
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  They said we want kind of similar to what you have, but we want you to do it, we think you'd be good.
• 3:50
  So I did their wedding.
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  It was an honor.
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  And then after that I thought, oh my goodness, this is it, I've got the bug.
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  This, how amazing is this job?
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  Everybody should know this is an option.
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  And I want to, I want to be at the heart of that and help other people have what I had and what my friend had.
• 4:02
  So I trained with Humanist UK because my celebrant had trained with Humanist uk, recommended that training to me and I, you know, didn't not identify with the humorous principles.
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  I thought, yep, that all makes sense.
• 4:14
  Did that and then, then now I'm sort of in my second full season of weddings, but trained in 2022.
• 4:21
  Okay, so you had a little bit of a gap where you trained and then you started going into a full season.
• 4:26
  And it makes perfect sense to me because I feel like there is a link between being a celebrant and being an actor.
• 4:32
  Although you're being yourself, but your performance background must come into some of what you're doing and has come into your training.
• 4:39
  Oh, a million percent.
• 4:40
  It's, I always say, obviously people think, oh actor, you're a performer, you're going to perform the ceremony.
• 4:44
  And I think, no, actually the closest character I've played in that is a narrator.
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  I narrate your story, I tell your story.
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  It's not about me, it's about creating an experience which is where my event side comes in, of understanding what people, you know within that ceremony, but also watching that ceremony need to feel engaged and feel they're taking something
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  away.
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  As a memory, not just, you know, a moment in time that gets forgotten.
• 5:08
  But yeah, my acting experience, I guess the public speaking side of it, you know, being engaging, that sort of thing and understanding a storyline and how the arcs of that work all marry up, marry up into what I
• 5:22
  do now.
• 5:23
  Yeah.
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  And you said earlier on that when you wanted to be an actor, you realized it wasn't for you because you wanted to know when your next paycheck was coming.
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  And all I thought was, uh, oh, well, that's the life of an entrepreneur.
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  So is that why you decided to keep going with your part time job as well as your business?
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  Because you want that stability and you want a bit of both worlds?
• 5:41
  Partly, yes, 100% that's played into it.
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  It's certainly something that I wanted to take on for the enjoyment and where I lost the enjoyment for acting because it became my full time thing and it became more consuming and stressful and when am I going to
• 5:55
  get my next job?
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  And then doubting yourself, I didn't want that with weddings.
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  I really wanted to enjoy doing what I do for couples.
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  And I think couples can tell the difference.
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  They can tell if you're desperate for your next booking or you know, to pay your bills and it's like, oh, I'll take anything.
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  Or you know, that's more important necessarily because it has to be not, you know, it's not a bad thing, it's a necessity of business.
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  But for me, because I have mind that that pays my bills but also keeps me on the pack of at the path of know what's going on in the event world and knowing a different sort of side of
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  that keeps me in the loop with that.
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  So again, it helps me pass on certain learnings and things to my couples that maybe I wouldn't have if I only focused on celebrity.
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  But yeah, it's a conscious decision for me to make sure that I give the best of me to my couples and do it in a way that I continue to enjoy and give my best side to, to my
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  work.
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  I think that's really important for us to talk about because I think sometimes people feel that pressure that if you've got a business, the aim is to quit your day job and go your business full time.
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  And you know, we talk a lot about when's the right time to quit your business and go in, into, sorry, quit your job and go into your business full time.
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  But actually it's absolutely perfectly fine to decide not to do that and to do both.
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  I had a DJ that I worked with for a number of years who had a really great full time job and he loved his full time job and he had a hugely successful DJ business and he absolutely could
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  have quit his day job to grow the business, but he didn't want to and that's absolutely fine.
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  I always say we go into business often because we want the freedom, we want the ideas that we want to do, we want to spend time time how we want.
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  And actually as soon as we give ourselves that pressure of well, I need to earn a certain amount of money and it needs to look a certain way, a lot of those things can go out the window.
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  So I think there'll be people listening that will be encouraged by the fact that, you know, having another job alongside your business isn't a failure, it's actually can be a great opportunity and it's a great option for people,
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  they don't have to have one or the other.
• 7:47
  Exactly.
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  I think you've hit the nail on the head there.
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  It's around what you want from your business and I think with the part of failure where people get that from is that people think you're not going to give your all to something because your whole brain's not on
• 7:59
  it and you're not going in full heart.
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  But actually making a conscious decision to keep that job for the opposite effect is actually important and it's how you frame it and how you set that up in the first place.
• 8:10
  So you talked about your first booking being friends who basically said they wanted you to be a celebrant.
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  You did your training.
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  But what I want to know is where your next bookings came from, your first bookings that weren't people you knew.
• 8:21
  Where did you find those from?
• 8:23
  Yeah, that's a good question.
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  A lot of it was around networking.
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  In the beginning I realized I had no photos.
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  So as you know from working with me once, when I'm quite ambitious, quite a go getter, I don't sit there and wait for things to come to me.
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  I like to be proactive.
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  So you know, I sorted out a photo shoot in Milton Keynes, a venue that we're looking to do micro weddings, got a team of people together so that I could build my network but also have photos and then
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  off the back of that made friends with other, some other celebrants.
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  And actually my first few jobs came from covering for other celebrants when they fell ill or, you know, couldn't do a.
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  I very gratefully took up those jobs that came that way and that gave me extra Photos, extra, you know, reviews, still things that could just build my name and establish me in that way.
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  And then other.
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  My first other bookings sort of came from a myriad of places, really.
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  I hadn't built my socials at that point to a point of getting inquiries, but I was getting inquiries from Humourous UK directories, a couple from Directories, My website, word of mouth, other celebrants who maybe were booked on a
• 9:24
  date.
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  So referrals have always been quite important for me, which I'm a people person.
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  So I find that, you know, one of my favorite things to network.
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  And again, that's a really fresh way for you to come into our industry.
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  Because I meet two types of people when they come into the wedding industry.
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  Some people who are very kind of closed off and feel like, well, I'm a celebrant, so the last person I want to speak to is any other celebrants.
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  They're my competition.
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  And then the people like you that are open and willing to network and you've reaped the benefits of it.
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  I always say the best people to network with are the people who do the same as you because they're the people that can handle work, that understand the struggles, can understand the things.
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  So again, it's really refreshing to hear not only did you come into the industry with that perspective, but it paid off.
• 10:03
  Yeah, 100% and I love it.
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  I love meeting other people, even if it doesn't pay off.
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  In bookings, I think you always have something to learn from somebody else or gain from them, and I'm always conscious to try and give as much as I get.
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  So it was my favorite thing once I was able to pass a booking to other celebrant that gave me, but I was like, oh, I've got an inquiry for a date, I'm already booked.
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  Here you go.
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  And that was just the loveliest feeling.
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  I remember that so well vividly because I was finally able to give back what they'd given to me.
• 10:29
  Yeah.
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  And again, that's why people should listen to, to work with, talk to newer people in the industry.
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  Again, just because someone's established and someone else comes in you, they're not a threat to you.
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  And actually, as their business grows, as their business builds.
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  Exactly.
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  Like you said, suddenly they're a great contact for that established person to have as well, because you can also send people their direction.
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  So, yeah, I think there's loads of lessons in there in terms of networking, in terms of building relationships and I love that your first bookings came from that area.
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  Now we talk about the wedding industry and I've, I've been getting on my high horse recently about how TikTok glamorizes the wedd industry.
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  You know, we make it sound like such an amazing industry to work in.
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  It's this, it's this dream job, but the reality of it can be very different.
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  It can be a lot of weekends, it can be a lot of hard graph.
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  There's a lot of competition.
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  So I would love to know, what do you think are some of the hardest parts of being a celebrant or being in your business that nobody else sees?
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  I think it's the loneliness actually, having spoken about networking and why I love it.
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  It's the loneliness of being at home, of sometimes not having anybody to sound board off and say, am I doing this right?
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  Like working with you has been amazing.
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  To have someone say, you don't have worry about this or let's work on this.
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  Because sometimes you are sat there going, I don't know if what I'm doing is right, I'm going in full pelt.
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  But what if I'm getting it wrong?
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  Or you're doing all the work but actually you're not seeing the benefits of it straight away.
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  So you have no idea until six months later whether it's worked or not.
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  So it can be quite hard to second guess and self doubt yourself when you go a few weeks or months without an inquiry coming in, even though you've put in more hours than you did say this time last
• 12:00
  year when you were getting inquiries at that time of year.
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  So that for me is the hardest, it's the second guessing in the loneliness.
• 12:06
  Yeah.
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  And I think with that comes self doubt for people sometimes as well.
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  And definitely a struggle.
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  And you probably struggle with this, but I know a lot of people who struggle with this is the personal feelings.
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  You know, we talked earlier about the feeling of rejection from being in the drama world and acting and actually I think sometimes we feel so close to our businesses and that feeling of rejection when a couple books someone
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  else is a struggle that a lot of people have.
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  Because especially when you're starting out and you're newer, it can feel really personal and you can feel like, why didn't they want me?
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  And I'm always saying to people, it's probably not anything to do with you.
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  There's so many reasons.
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  I say, sometimes I go to Starbucks, sometimes I go to Costa, but I like them both, there's no reason.
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  Or sometimes it's just I feel like One more than the other.
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  Is that something you struggled with?
• 12:57
  Oh, a million percent.
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  It's something I've had to really focus on reframing, actually, because in the beginning it was.
• 13:03
  I mean, I was lucky that if I get someone on a call I would typically had quite a high conversion rate, especially in that first, first year.
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  Then I upped my prices and that's when I found a bit of a discrepancy with that.
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  With less people necessarily booking straight away as, as they would if once they put the inquiry in.
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  See, I've had to reframe around thinking that it's not me.
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  And the way I've done that is think about, okay, how do I shop?
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  How do I, you know, look at.
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  When I looked at something to do my website, I inquired with maybe five or six people and then there was one person that gave me a feeling.
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  It was a feeling she got excited about my ideas, you know, said all the right things.
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  And it was, it was based on a feeling I could have gone with, with, you know, two or three of the other ones.
• 13:41
  So I then had to remind myself, okay, that's probably what other people are doing when they inquire with me.
• 13:46
  And so that makes you feel a little bit better because if you look at your own behavior and you just remember that it's human.
• 13:52
  That's true.
• 13:52
  And then the other thing that happened to me recently, which was so lovely and really reaffirming and it's just made me think about things completely differently.
• 13:59
  I had one couple who got in touch with me, said they looked at my website, thought I'd be perfect for them, sent me a really long inquiry, detailed.
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  So I thought, great, I've got this one.
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  Because, you know, they're not just ask about my price if I'm available.
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  They've really gone into detail to tell me why I'm the right.
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  Why they think I'm the right fit.
• 14:14
  So we had our vibe check call which went really well and they said they'd let me know within a week.
• 14:19
  And then within a week I hadn't heard, so I just said, you know, checking in if there's any questions.
• 14:23
  And they came back and said, you know, we loved our call, we thought you were amazing.
• 14:27
  We have gone with a different celebrant, but here's why, and actually wrote me a really lovely detailed email to say it was nothing to do with you, you were amazing.
• 14:35
  And to be honest, it was a really tough choice between you and this other person.
• 14:39
  The only thing that made us then go with the other person was it.
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  It came with a recommendation.
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  And so that just gave us that extra trust value.
• 14:45
  And to hear that put out in plain English by a couple who'd taken that time to do that.
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  I'll never be.
• 14:50
  I could never be more grateful than that because it.
• 14:52
  Yeah, it.
• 14:53
  It just gives you the reassurance that all those things that you're thinking and being told are true.
• 14:57
  Most people, you know, they're choosing a really difficult.
• 15:00
  You're making it difficult for them to choose, but they have to pick one way, you know, some way.
• 15:04
  And actually all the.
• 15:05
  You're doing all the right things and you are being put in front of the right people.
• 15:09
  It just sometimes doesn't go away.
• 15:11
  Yeah, absolute sometimes.
• 15:13
  It's nothing that you could have changed.
• 15:15
  Like, you.
• 15:15
  You can't change that someone happened to have recommended them, and it could have easily gone the other way that someone had recommended you and they didn't get the booking.
• 15:22
  But, you know, going back to your earlier example with the websites, just because you chose one doesn't mean you hated all of the others.
• 15:29
  And I think sometimes people I talk to go to that extreme.
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  Why does everyone hate me?
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  Is my price is crazy?
• 15:35
  You know, like, we just.
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  We rip our whole business up because it feels so personal.
• 15:39
  And sometimes we do just have to take that step back and reframe and remember how we shop.
• 15:43
  And I think unfortunately, unfortunately, you know, we see ourselves as these small business owners, but the couples don't.
• 15:48
  They just see us in the same way as they see any other business.
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  They're doing business with us.
• 15:53
  They.
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  And, you know, they don't expect.
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  If they.
• 15:55
  If we don't go into Costa one day and go into Starbucks, that the manager of Costa is going to be crying in a corner because, you know, and it's the same.
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  They.
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  They see us in that same light.
• 16:03
  They don't necessarily realize, you know, the personal effect it has.
• 16:07
  And so we have to see ourselves as that business and take that step back.
• 16:11
  Okay, let's talk marketing then, because it's my favorite kind of subject.
• 16:14
  What have been some of your highs and low when it's come to marketing since you started your business?
• 16:20
  How much time I spend on social media?
• 16:23
  Oh, it's too high.
• 16:24
  It's way too high.
• 16:25
  I think the other day I looked at my stats and I think online screen time was like eight hours or something on average for the week.
• 16:30
  I was like, oh, it's just too long.
• 16:31
  But it's hard because in my personal life, I'd love to Take a step back from social media.
• 16:35
  But you just can't when you run a business.
• 16:37
  And I am getting inquiries now from social media so you know, I can't afford to do that.
• 16:42
  And I do enjoy making content.
• 16:44
  But it's hard when you spend so long on certain things that get hardly any views and then you go viral with a random 2 second cap cut meme that you've made about burying too many sausages because it's hot.
• 16:56
  And I'm like, well if that's what's gonna do it then why am I spending all these hours?
• 17:00
  Of course I know deep down once I reality check myself that that's a shot window and people are going to look at that once you've got the visibility from them, you know, silly reels, they are coming to look
• 17:10
  at the other stuff.
• 17:10
  So it's important.
• 17:11
  But it's hard to keep reality checking yourself on that and how long to spend on social media versus versus the roi.
• 17:18
  Like I have no concept of the return on investment really other than how many inquiries I get because of the marketing theme park that you so well established that they're looking at so many different things.
• 17:29
  So it's hard.
• 17:30
  I think that's my hardest thing with marketing is not knowing exactly what's working and what to continue doing and what to spend most of my time on without it feeling overwhelming alongside a part time job in events and
• 17:42
  the day job of being a celebrant.
• 17:43
  And I think the struggle with social media for so many people is that they're not necessarily necessarily creating, they're just scrolling.
• 17:51
  And so I think sometimes when people say I spend way too much time on social media and I hate it, often it's because they're spending way too much time looking at what everyone else.
• 17:59
  Is doing on social media.
• 18:00
  Oh my God.
• 18:00
  Yeah.
• 18:01
  Rather than actually going on there and creating.
• 18:03
  Because actually the act of going on and creating a reel and doing that doesn't necessarily have to be you spending that much time on social media.
• 18:10
  And of course we want to engage and we want to reply to comments and we want to check, but it sucks us in.
• 18:15
  And then we start scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and comparing ourselves.
• 18:20
  And I think, you know, I always have a love hate relationship with social media.
• 18:24
  I love it because it's a really powerful tool.
• 18:26
  It can be a great place for marketing.
• 18:28
  It doesn't have to cost us very much.
• 18:30
  The exposure that we can get these days from reels is insane.
• 18:34
  I mean, you know, we talk about, I don't know the amount of people that may have seen a poster in a magazine or see us a wedding fair compared to the thousands of people that we can reach on
• 18:43
  social media.
• 18:44
  But on the other hand, it is a necessary evil.
• 18:47
  There's a lot of things we don't like about it and it can suck.
• 18:49
  Time.
• 18:50
  Time.
• 18:50
  But I do think you should be encouraged because you are creating and I think a lot of people listening to this are not creating and hopefully that's a wake up call for them.
• 18:58
  That if you are just someone spending time scrolling and not actually getting out there and doing something, that's when it's becoming a big problem and there are things we can do.
• 19:06
  You know, I don't know if you're very good at like putting your phone to one side in an evening or are you just completely addicted?
• 19:11
  I'm so addicted.
• 19:12
  It's so annoying.
• 19:13
  Like I'm like in bed trying to sleep.
• 19:14
  I'm like, I'm so tired, but I just need to see one more.
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  Or like, what if the next one's really good?
• 19:18
  Like you just can't.
• 19:19
  And I know, I'm aware of it, but it's so hard.
• 19:21
  Hard.
• 19:22
  But the other thing I will say is I've got better at when I'm creating, not getting sucked in in that moment.
• 19:28
  Like, I'll spend time, you know, I spend the last week of each month typically trying to do the next month's content.
• 19:34
  So in that week I'll pick one evening where I do plan out ideas and the next evening where I'll write the scripts for the reels and the next evening where I write the caption, you know, and I'll do
• 19:43
  that and then I do the filming as I go once I've got makeup on.
• 19:45
  Because that's not every day.
• 19:46
  That's another thing I hate about marketing, having to have makeup in your head.
• 19:49
  I done.
• 19:50
  But yes, I try and do it like that so that I don't get sucked in.
• 19:53
  Just do a reel each day as and when my emotions feel like it.
• 19:56
  So then I do that my three posts a week.
• 19:58
  And then if I see something as I go like a trend, I can add it in those other days where I'm not posting.
• 20:03
  And that just takes the pressure off for me now and then, then I know when I'm scrolling I don't have to feel guilty.
• 20:08
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:09
  It's interesting because recently in the members lounge we had a masterclass with Zoe from.
• 20:13
  Zoe loves creating.
• 20:14
  And one of the things she talked about in that masterclass was how much time are you spending looking at other people's content copy rather than being creative and her kind of idea.
• 20:25
  And yes, we can look at other people and get trends, but her idea was that instead of spending that time looking at what everyone else in the industry is doing, instead you should be spending that time looking back
• 20:33
  at your own content, looking back at your own analytics, seeing what's worked and then recreating and being creative with something you've already done that's worked in the past.
• 20:42
  And I thought that was a really interesting perspective to have because I think often we are just scrolling for ideas, scrolling for sounds and sometimes there's good stuff.
• 20:50
  Right.
• 20:50
  And sometimes we can come up with those fun tricks, friends.
• 20:53
  But she's also right that sometimes it does suck the creativity because we're actually just copying what everyone else is doing rather than being unapologetically ourselves.
• 21:01
  Yes, exactly.
• 21:02
  I think someone, someone once said to me, it's always stuck with me, you either have to be the first person to do something or someone who can do it better or the best.
• 21:09
  And I think that's the thing is be a first rate you rather than a second rate someone else that, that I live by that.
• 21:14
  Like it's hard because I get sucked into and I look at everyone like, oh, I've not done that and they're doing really well and it's hard.
• 21:21
  It's human nature.
• 21:22
  But yeah, if you can be a first rate you rather than a second rate somebody else, you'll go far that you know that that person's already taken be completely you and you have the creativity in your brain that
• 21:31
  you're doing the job, you have the stuff in your phone.
• 21:34
  It's not hard once you get started, but it's the getting started, it's the confidence, isn't it?
• 21:38
  Yeah.
• 21:39
  And sometimes you just got to get out there and do it.
• 21:41
  But I love that mantra.
• 21:41
  I think that's one that will resonate with a lot of people.
• 21:44
  Really, really helpful.
• 21:45
  Okay.
• 21:45
  We talked about getting bookings when you started, started your business.
• 21:48
  What about right now, 2026, you, you said that we're living in this crazy marketing theme park world.
• 21:54
  It's chaotic, it's quite hard to work out the return on investment in various areas.
• 21:58
  But what do you think is working for you this year in terms of attracting new clients?
• 22:03
  I think it's being everywhere.
• 22:04
  So my work is now starting to pay off with consistency on social media, on Tick Tock and Instagram.
• 22:09
  You know, my followers have grown quite well on Instagram.
• 22:12
  Not so well on TikTok, but they're both still trending upwards.
• 22:15
  And I think that's the thing, is it's not going to happen overnight, which was someone who's as impat as me is quite a bit of pill to swallow, I won't lie.
• 22:22
  But yeah, it's starting to pay off.
• 22:24
  My SEO work for my website, referrals from venues and other vendors, you know, my networking work.
• 22:30
  So having a little bit of time in each thing rather than focusing on one too heavily and then ignoring the rest is really helpful.
• 22:38
  But that comes with the caveat of not doing too much and not doing any of them well enough.
• 22:42
  So, you know, I'd love to be on LinkedIn because I'd love to actually network with more suppliers and businesses, but that's just too much for me right now.
• 22:49
  I did one post the other day and it got some impressions, but like, one, like.
• 22:52
  And I'm like, oh no, that's really sad.
• 22:53
  And then my husband, right when he said to me, but that's your first post in like, how long?
• 22:58
  I was like, oh, yeah, Becca would tell me off for think, thinking and feeling like this.
• 23:02
  I think that's the thing is sometimes you can try and spread yourself too thin and it's about having that strategy of which platforms you're going to take on and do them as well as you can before you try
• 23:11
  and overreach.
• 23:12
  Like, I tried Pinterest in the beginning, I hated it, so I stopped it.
• 23:15
  I was like, why am I doing this?
• 23:16
  It's not.
• 23:16
  Not.
• 23:17
  I'm doing it again because everyone else is doing it because everything I see online tells me to do it, not because I enjoy it and that I'm going to get the most from it.
• 23:24
  Because like you said, if we try and do things that we hate, like, if we don't like, we're just not going to do them.
• 23:30
  We're not going to do them to the best of our ability.
• 23:31
  So what's the point?
• 23:32
  Pick ones where you actually enjoy or feel good at doing them, or get good at doing them and stick with them because people are looking everywhere.
• 23:39
  So you don't need to be on all the platforms because they're looking in different places anyway.
• 23:43
  Like, if they don't find you on Tick Tock, they'll probably check Instagram.
• 23:46
  That's what I do as a shopper.
• 23:47
  If I don't find something on Tik, I'll go and check Instagram because I'm like, oh, they haven't got one on there.
• 23:51
  They're probably on There they're not thinking, oh, they're not on TikToks, that's it, I'm not going to book them.
• 23:55
  Yes, obviously you have higher visibility if you're on both because you can gather both audiences, but just being on one or the other and doing one really well doesn't mean you're limiting yourself, I don't think.
• 24:06
  Yeah, really helpful advice.
• 24:07
  And I think the other thing to remember is that everyone's different, everyone's personalities are different.
• 24:12
  And I don't think there is a one size fits all way to market a wedding business.
• 24:16
  You know, we joke about, you see these courses, like, here's the exact formula that need to do to make six figures in your wedding business.
• 24:22
  I bought them.
• 24:23
  I bought them.
• 24:24
  Becca now tells me off for buying too many and I have to message Becca to say, please don't.
• 24:28
  Do I need to buy this?
• 24:29
  Tell me.
• 24:29
  No, no.
• 24:30
  Exactly.
• 24:31
  But they're out there and they're promised the world and of course there's best practices and of course there's things that will work.
• 24:36
  But one of the joys that I get, particularly when I get the chance to work with people one to one, is that we can then actually do something that works for their personality.
• 24:44
  So one of the things we've spoken about is how good you are, are people to people.
• 24:48
  Right?
• 24:49
  So you're really suited to wedding shows, wedding open days, you're really suited to networking and you're really suited to showing up on social media and on videos.
• 24:56
  You're really likable, you've got that performance background, so those things work for you.
• 25:00
  But other people are not particularly good on camera or don't have that same way of doing things.
• 25:05
  So actually going all in on TikTok isn't probably something I would recommend to them.
• 25:10
  So we have to play to our strengths.
• 25:11
  Whereas other people love writing blog posts, love going all in on SEO and data.
• 25:17
  Right.
• 25:17
  And so they're more, much better suited to going really deep with that stuff and looking at the analytics in that way.
• 25:24
  So again, I think it's a reminder that there is no one size fits all.
• 25:27
  So there may be another celebrant listening where actually doing all the reels that you're doing on TikTok and Instagram wouldn't work for them.
• 25:33
  It wouldn't be the right fit.
• 25:34
  Doesn't mean it's not a good marketing strategy.
• 25:36
  But sometimes something else works for one person that doesn't work for someone else.
• 25:42
  So social media, I just want to briefly talk about, you're Going viral because you mentioned it a little bit earlier and it is quite amusing.
• 25:49
  But again, I think think it's funny because in some ways that seems to be what we're all striving for.
• 25:53
  Right.
• 25:53
  But it's a pointless metric really because, I mean, your post.
• 25:57
  Well, tell us about your post.
• 25:58
  Tell us about how many people it reached.
• 25:59
  So I made a post.
• 26:00
  I remember it Monday night before I went to bed.
• 26:02
  I just thought, I'm gonna make a cap cut meme.
• 26:04
  I was looking at through them and I was like, oh, that's a fun one.
• 26:06
  And it was the Barbie doll sort of falling over with some fun music behind it.
• 26:11
  And it been really hot.
• 26:13
  It was in the heat waves.
• 26:13
  It's boiling hot.
• 26:14
  And I was like, brilliant.
• 26:15
  I'm just gonna put that with.
• 26:16
  I think too many people have buried, you know, buried too many sausages or something because it's now 40 degrees, something like that.
• 26:23
  And it went viral and I think it's 1.5 million views now, which is mental.
• 26:29
  Like, I've never had that many people look at anything I've ever done, so.
• 26:31
  And I just remember it getting higher and higher and just constantly checking it being like, oh my goodness, this is getting ridiculously out of hand.
• 26:37
  But it was so hard to keep up with like the comments and replying because I wanted to try and reply to everyone and I had to delete a couple if they were like misogynistic and stuff.
• 26:44
  And I didn't really want them on, on there.
• 26:47
  And so, yeah, so that felt like another job on the Tuesday, Wednesday when I was like, I've got other things to be doing.
• 26:52
  So, yeah, it is a pointless metric.
• 26:54
  And you do have to think like, how, how worth it is for that extra work that it took me.
• 26:59
  But I did get, you know, quite a considerable amount of extra follows.
• 27:02
  So it did get me in front of people and whether that.
• 27:04
  But it's hard to know whether that got you bookings or inquiries or whether then people would have found you anyway.
• 27:09
  So again, you can't, you can't plan for those.
• 27:11
  And that's why I don't plan to go viral.
• 27:14
  I like to do fun little posts like that every now and again because that's my personality and I find it funny.
• 27:18
  But it's certainly not what I strategize around.
• 27:21
  Yeah.
• 27:21
  And I can't imagine that suddenly, you know, I think people think, oh, if I go viral and my post reach 1.5 million people, suddenly I'll have a diary full of weddings.
• 27:29
  But it doesn't work that way, does it?
• 27:30
  You know, that's, that's not how it works.
• 27:33
  And actually, you know, I'll go for it.
• 27:35
  Sorry.
• 27:35
  Although someone did tag Greg James in it and that was.
• 27:38
  That for me was the pinnacle.
• 27:39
  I was like, I've made it, I've made it.
• 27:40
  Greg James has been tagged in my, in my post.
• 27:43
  I've it done, done this.
• 27:44
  Peace out.
• 27:44
  I love it.
• 27:45
  And it makes you feel good about yourself for a while, for sure.
• 27:49
  I think ultimately we know that actually the consistency piece, the other videos that don't go viral but reach 3, 4, 5, 600 people, but actually reach the right people with the right messaging can be just as effective.
• 28:01
  And I think, you know, going viral is a lot of fun, but also it can be a lot of work as well.
• 28:06
  So I think we need to bust that myth that the only way to do well is to suddenly go viral.
• 28:10
  Actually, you can do incredibly well on social media media by just reaching the right people and a couple of hundred of them.
• 28:16
  And I said it before and I'll say it a million times again.
• 28:19
  Sometimes we look at our stats and we think, oh, oh, she got 1.5 million and I got 200.
• 28:24
  But then you're like, actually 200 people.
• 28:26
  You know, how many people do you meet at the average wedding fair?
• 28:28
  Probably not even 200.
• 28:30
  No, actually 200 is still 200 eyeballs.
• 28:33
  We need to not kind of get carried away and think that we failed because only 200 people have seen us.
• 28:39
  Because if 200 people see your post every day and they're probably not the same 200 people, actually, that is quite a lot of exposure.
• 28:45
  So I think again, we kind of become immune to the metrics.
• 28:48
  We're very good at comparisonitis and looking at everyone else.
• 28:51
  But, you know, you've had it both ways now.
• 28:53
  You've been viral and, and you've had the average views and really the results are probably not that much different.
• 28:58
  Exactly, exactly.
• 28:59
  And you can't ever think, I've done one reel now and it's done really well, so I'll just stop.
• 29:04
  I think that's the thing, is consistency is key.
• 29:05
  And that's what I've learned is no matter how well or bad a reel does, I'm still gonna keep turning up three times, three times a week, and I'm still going to keep prepping it at the end of each
• 29:14
  month for the following.
• 29:15
  You know, that's not going.
• 29:16
  You look back at your data analytics, worked out what went well, and you hope for something good to come out of it.
• 29:21
  But you can't let your emotions in those moments of viral, non viral change your approach and your strategy.
• 29:28
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 29:29
  So as we said earlier, and we've alluded to a couple of times in this episode, we've been working one to one together this year, which has been an absolute privilege for me.
• 29:37
  Why did you decide to invest in some support rather than just figuring things out alone?
• 29:42
  I spent the first couple of years, or first year or so once I was, you know, building everything and training, training, wondering if what I was doing was right.
• 29:48
  And there was, you know, there was so many conflicting things out there online and I went to all the free summits and the free things and got all the free learning because I didn't have money yet and you
• 29:57
  know, did all those things and all it did was make me overwhelmed because, you know, I would try and fix something and then it wouldn't change and then I'd do something else.
• 30:04
  It wouldn't.
• 30:05
  I had no one guiding me and I hate that.
• 30:07
  I'm a very much a black and white person of if you do X, you get why.
• 30:11
  Which again is awful in this job because that doesn't work.
• 30:14
  And as I've realized working with you as well, marketing just doesn't work that way.
• 30:18
  So I've to get used to that and be accept being okay with it.
• 30:21
  But for me, I needed that guidance, someone to look with clear eyes without the objectives, you know, that I have and my emotions and be objective and say, this is where you need to focus on next.
• 30:32
  So focus was a big one for me because I was trying to do all the things all at once and burning myself out and then realizing that actually that's not effective.
• 30:40
  It's not getting me any more bookings, it's not actually doing what I want it to do.
• 30:42
  It's just making me tired.
• 30:43
  Tired and fed up, to be honest.
• 30:45
  So then I thought, well, I need someone to actually look at everything holistically and tell me, tell me where to focus on next to move the needle the most.
• 30:52
  I think sometimes people get confused about that when they think about working one to one as well.
• 30:56
  I think sometimes people think, oh, if I work one to one with someone, they're going to suddenly give away their big secret.
• 31:00
  Like there's some secret thing that they've been hiding back and they're only going to tell people if they work with them one to one.
• 31:06
  But actually, and I say this a lot, you know, there is loads of information out there about marketing.
• 31:10
  There's loads of podcast Episodes you can listen to, there's loads of summits, there's loads of YouTube videos.
• 31:14
  Really, the joy of the one to one isn't particularly learning something new.
• 31:19
  It's what I just said earlier about that personalized approach.
• 31:22
  It's that, okay, here's the knowledge, but this is how it actually applies in your business.
• 31:26
  This is the things that we can ignore, this is the things we're going to go double down on.
• 31:30
  And also here's how we're going to stay accountable for getting them done.
• 31:34
  Because we've all been to a conference, we've all watched the summit, we've all listened to a podcast episode and gone.
• 31:39
  I am going to do X, Y, Z and they're not done.
• 31:42
  Whereas I've got a list.
• 31:44
  But you also know, and I'll know, I know this from you as well, that if you're about to meet me the next day and you've got a list, you've got to go and get that list done.
• 31:52
  Because otherwise you've got to turn up to that meeting and go, yeah, I didn't do it.
• 31:56
  It's the same as I.
• 31:57
  I have a pt, a small group PT that I work with and I work with her for a couple of years, like one to one and then stop because I thought, well, I can't continue paying this every month.
• 32:06
  I know what I'm doing now, just go to the gym and do it.
• 32:07
  And had a friend put me some online workouts together and I just wasn't getting anywhere.
• 32:13
  I was going, I was hating it, I was crying because I didn't want to go to the gym.
• 32:16
  Oh, I hate this.
• 32:17
  And, and so went back and I joined her again and then her small group now and I love it.
• 32:21
  And I go twice a week.
• 32:22
  I never hate it, I never dread it, I do it every time I work really hard.
• 32:25
  And that's the difference is having someone because I've paid the money, I don't want to waste it, I don't want to waste that money.
• 32:31
  18 pound a month for the gym, what's that?
• 32:33
  But 200 or whatever I pay a month now, whatever it is, that's a lot more to lose.
• 32:37
  So I've invested that money, so I'm going to use it and I'm going to make sure I get the most out of it.
• 32:41
  And that's the difference by working with someone like you or a coach or what you know in any way is that you've paid that money, you want to get the most out of that session.
• 32:49
  So you're going to do the work and having a deadline of accountability and someone to be disappointed in you if you haven't done it is.
• 32:56
  It works wonders.
• 32:57
  It really does.
• 32:57
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 32:58
  Now, I've written down three things that I think have been some of the biggest shifts that we've had this year of working together.
• 33:05
  I'm going to give you each one and I'd love you to kind of expand on it more.
• 33:08
  So the first one is one of the first things we implemented was tracking data and KPIs.
• 33:14
  Yes.
• 33:14
  Oh, my goodness, what a change that has made.
• 33:18
  Just knowing your data.
• 33:19
  Like, I remember thinking, oh, I'm really rubbish, this is really rubbish.
• 33:22
  It's not working.
• 33:23
  And then we look at the data and be like, no, it is working.
• 33:25
  This is exactly what you want.
• 33:27
  It's just not going fast enough for you.
• 33:28
  And I think that's having that awareness of something, of your emotions versus the reality is really important because it just helps you calm down about it.
• 33:37
  Like, you're not so worried about it, you're not so in your head about it, you've got it there on paper.
• 33:41
  But it also means you have that to do, like year by year comparisons.
• 33:46
  Like, I just worked out, I, you know, I was like, oh, my goodness, I've not got enough bookings for 2027.
• 33:50
  Oh, this is a nightmare.
• 33:51
  It's already July.
• 33:52
  And then I worked out how many inquiries I had this time last year for 2026.
• 33:56
  And I'm in exactly the same position, if not almost a bit better.
• 33:59
  So I'm like, why am I worrying then?
• 34:01
  That's.
• 34:01
  But I wouldn't have known that if I didn't check out the data.
• 34:03
  I'd have been in my head and worrying and being anxious and upset and trying to change things on the floor.
• 34:08
  That would have hurt my business.
• 34:09
  So, yeah, data and tracking has been life changing for me.
• 34:13
  I'm still not 100% there.
• 34:14
  I need to get better at it and there are other things I want to track and.
• 34:17
  But now I'm getting into it, I'm getting really into what else can I track?
• 34:20
  Can I track this?
• 34:21
  I want to track that.
• 34:23
  So, yeah, it's been amazing.
• 34:24
  Yeah.
• 34:24
  I'm flying the flag at the moment for data because it really doesn't sound very exciting.
• 34:29
  But it is actually.
• 34:30
  It is, though.
• 34:31
  Once you get into it, it's actually quite exciting and you find out stuff and I think so many people in this industry, and I say it time and time again, make decisions on emotions, make decisions on how they're
• 34:41
  Feeling make decisions on what other people are saying to them so they'll hear something where it's like, oh, directories are dead or wedding shows are dead or social media is pointless and that gets in their head and then
• 34:50
  they make decisions on those things.
• 34:52
  But actually, like, before you start making decisions, if you've got the data in front of you, then you can make a better, more methodical decision otherwise.
• 35:01
  And I think that's when people get into that feeling of overwhelm because they, they start being more scatty and changing things and everyone's telling them something different because as we said, everyone's business and personality is going to work
• 35:12
  slightly differently.
• 35:13
  And actually what works for one person might not work for someone else and vice versa.
• 35:17
  So, yeah, data points and tracking those is so, so important.
• 35:21
  Some of the things we've been tracking for you, social media, how many, not only followers but how many views you're getting on social media, we've looked at your acquisition.
• 35:29
  So where are people coming from?
• 35:30
  Are they coming to your website from search?
• 35:32
  Are they coming from social?
• 35:34
  We've looked at sales, we've looked at costs going out every month and looking at balancing those.
• 35:39
  We've looked at inquiry numbers, conversion numbers.
• 35:42
  I get really excited about it.
• 35:44
  It's exciting because actually you can go, like you said, you then find discoveries, right?
• 35:49
  It's like digging for gold.
• 35:50
  So finding that discovery of, oh, actually this time last year, I had the same amount booked for the next year as I do today.
• 35:57
  Actually, that's a discovery because it's a huge weight off your shoulders from thinking, you know, I had the same recently, I was panicking.
• 36:04
  WED Pros Live.
• 36:05
  So we've got WED Pros Live next year and I'm going to a bigger venue.
• 36:08
  And a bigger venue means more costs involved and that's kind of scary.
• 36:11
  And I was looking at ticket sales and thinking, oh, I haven't sold a ticket for a while.
• 36:15
  And then I realized I've actually sold double for next year than I had this time last year.
• 36:19
  So why am I worrying about it?
• 36:20
  Once you look at the data, you realize, oh, okay, that it's not as bad as I think it is in my head, but caught up in it 100%.
• 36:28
  It also gives you a ability to plan, whereas you feel helpless and you feel scattered and you're like, oh, it's not working.
• 36:33
  I'm not getting enough inquiries, enough.
• 36:34
  I need to do this, I need to do this, I need to do that.
• 36:36
  And you do all the things because people like to feel proactive.
• 36:39
  And that they're doing something about it, but when they're not all the right things because you don't have the data and you can't be focused on what to.
• 36:46
  To do to achieve a specific goal, that's when you feel overwhelmed and like, like nothing you're doing works.
• 36:52
  Whereas if you have the data and the things to back up, you can say, okay, well, if I haven't sold enough to say, if you weren't in a position where you were doing really well against last year, you
• 36:59
  could then focus your efforts on making sure you do marketing around that to make sure that changes, rather than doing a little, little bit this, little bit this, and none of it working.
• 37:09
  See, I think it's just so powerful to make you feel at ease because then you can plan and when you have a plan, you feel better.
• 37:14
  Ultimately.
• 37:15
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 37:16
  Okay, the second thing on my list, and again, you alluded to this earlier, but I want to talk about it in more detail, is a new service that I think I should advertise because I do it for more
• 37:24
  than, more than one person, which is the Becca says no service.
• 37:28
  Tell us about that.
• 37:29
  Oh, basically, what was it?
• 37:31
  I think I'd done your TikTok course.
• 37:32
  It's Simona and then I follow Georgie Mitchell and I'm like, you know, fangirl of her, she's amazing what she's done and waited for her tick tock course to come out and then I bought that too.
• 37:41
  And whilst like, both were great, you know, I didn't need both.
• 37:44
  I didn't need both.
• 37:45
  And, and yours was in like live and more in person and coaching, whereas Georgie's was obviously all online so you don't actually get access to her.
• 37:52
  So if anything, I probably didn't need that one once I'd done your one because I had actually in person coaching, so I didn't need to do that.
• 37:59
  And when I sort of told you, I had a little guilty look on my face because I knew, I knew deep down that was silly.
• 38:05
  And we worked out I was probably spending too much money based on what I need to be spending and investing back into the business.
• 38:12
  And you're like, right, these things have got to go.
• 38:13
  And I was like, yeah, but they get me, they get me.
• 38:15
  I'm such a marketer's dream, you know, I get sucked in.
• 38:18
  What am I going to do?
• 38:19
  And you're like, message me.
• 38:20
  Next time you see something on Facebook or you want to order something, you message me first and I'll tell you why you don't need it.
• 38:26
  And that's what I do now.
• 38:27
  I think I've done it three, three times since I found some random on Facebook.
• 38:31
  And again, you have this way of making people feel guilty, but in a, in a nice way, because you were like, who is this guy?
• 38:37
  Have you done your research?
• 38:38
  I was like, well, no, I don't know, it just popped up.
• 38:40
  And then you feel so stupid because of course I should have researched him.
• 38:43
  Why would I think of buying something where I've not researched him?
• 38:46
  But sometimes you do need that extra person to just remove you out of your emotional brain and be your logical brain.
• 38:52
  Well, yeah, and we're in a vulnerable state, right?
• 38:54
  These things hit us late at night.
• 38:55
  They hit us when we're feeling down about our business.
• 38:57
  They hit, hit us when we've had a rejection or a couple's book someone else.
• 39:00
  And we are feeling that need of like, there's something wrong with me, I need a fix.
• 39:04
  And obviously a marketer is coming in to solve your problems.
• 39:08
  That's, you know, as marketers, that's what we teach people to do, but sometimes we don't need it.
• 39:13
  And you know what's funny is that there may be a time when you message me and I say, yes, actually, that is worth buying.
• 39:19
  I mean, I think we have actually had a yes.
• 39:21
  I think when we were talking about UK wedding association and it was like, yeah, that is actually right now that that one is worth it.
• 39:27
  You need the networking.
• 39:28
  It's a great opportunity.
• 39:29
  And so I think for me, it's not that I don't want people to buy anything else or I want them to only buy things from me.
• 39:34
  Of course I don't.
• 39:34
  But what I see is that people buy the wrong things at the wrong times.
• 39:39
  They get sucked in, in a vulnerable moment.
• 39:41
  And sometimes you do just need someone to ask those kind of probing questions.
• 39:45
  It's a bit like, you know, when you get scammed in the bank, but when you go into your banking app now and you try and make a payment, it sometimes it comes over those extra questions and it's like,
• 39:52
  are you sure that you're paying this person?
• 39:54
  Are you sure they haven't asked you?
• 39:56
  Like, and it's a bit like that.
• 39:57
  You just need that like, little buffer before you make the purchase.
• 40:01
  To go to art, to self reflect and to go.
• 40:04
  Actually, do I need that?
• 40:05
  You know, I'm a big advocate for courses and I will send people to particular courses at the right time.
• 40:10
  So for example, you know, if something just pops up out of the blue, the chance of it being the thing you need in that moment is quite low.
• 40:16
  But if I was working, working with a client one to one and we really identified that there was a big gap for their SEO and they needed to go all in on SEO, I would then send them to
• 40:26
  my friend Sarah at Sarah does SEO and say, you know, take this course, this is the best course in the industry on SEO, I believe.
• 40:33
  So this is worth you investing in.
• 40:35
  Go all in on it.
• 40:36
  Don't do any other courses at the same time.
• 40:37
  Make the changes and then we look.
• 40:40
  Whereas I think often we just buy things because they pop into our inbox or they pop up and we think we need it now.
• 40:45
  Well, I ended up buying from Brian Lawrence and Sarah does SEO.
• 40:48
  So I mean I paid twice for SEO.
• 40:50
  This is what I mean, I'm a nightmare.
• 40:52
  But I've learned from that.
• 40:53
  And that's thing is that that's been the biggest, one of the biggest learning curves for me is learning that not everything, there is no quick fix.
• 41:00
  And actually you need to do your research because that money and the biggest thing I think you ever said to me that taught me was you could have put that towards a Disney trip.
• 41:07
  And I was like, that £100 you spent with Georgie, that could have been like, what was it, a fifth of your plane ticket?
• 41:14
  Oh my goodness, I could have been going to Disney.
• 41:15
  And that for me I think is what people have to remember.
• 41:18
  Why are you doing it?
• 41:19
  What, what is motivating you make to have a business.
• 41:22
  And yes, while for me it's not just money, like I say, it's not here to pay my bills, it's about fun and experiences and being, you know, a part of people's special day.
• 41:31
  That is genuinely for me, I still do want my Disney trip.
• 41:35
  You know, I still want to be able to have a nice life.
• 41:37
  And I'm not doing it for the, you know, for completely goodwill.
• 41:40
  Like I do want to make, you know, something back for my time.
• 41:44
  So I think that that's really important as well is looking at that angle.
• 41:47
  And something I wanted to say is what you said earlier around how you don't want people to just buy from you and buy courses.
• 41:52
  I can att to that because something that made me really want to work with you is how you literally said to me, you don't need my members club right now.
• 42:00
  Like you, you weren't trying to sell to me, you were like, don't join anything else, don't join in members clubs.
• 42:04
  You were like, don't even join mine.
• 42:06
  Like it's not right for you right now.
• 42:07
  And I think that's what I got from working and get from working with you is that honesty rather than selling to me.
• 42:12
  You genuinely care about what I need.
• 42:15
  So I just wanted to say that.
• 42:16
  Thank you.
• 42:16
  Yeah, but that's why I'm not a dream salesperson because I probably shouldn't do that but.
• 42:21
  But I.
• 42:21
  But again bit like you are with your couples.
• 42:23
  Like that's where my heart is.
• 42:24
  I genuinely want people to.
• 42:25
  To do the things that's going to help them raw and that's what helps us sleep better at night.
• 42:29
  Right.
• 42:29
  When we know that we haven't sold someone something they don't need and that's pointless to them at that time and actually that they spend their money in the right places.
• 42:38
  Whether that's with me, whether that's with someone else or whether it's.
• 42:40
  They save it for a Disney trip.
• 42:41
  Which also brings me a lot of joy when I see people on Instagram going to Disney.
• 42:46
  Okay, one more thing that I want to talk about that we, we discussed in our one to ones was wedding shows.
• 42:52
  Now I think this is an interesting one and we're still kind of in a testing phase days with it.
• 42:55
  But when you first met me the first time we talked about where your inquiries had come from over the last year and you said that you've kind of given up on wedding shows.
• 43:03
  But when again when we drilled into the data we saw that actually quite a lot of your couples had met you or first found you at a wedding show.
• 43:12
  So we said we were going to test that out because my belief is that you're a people person.
• 43:16
  People resonate with your personality.
• 43:18
  They like you when you meet you.
• 43:19
  And a good place to meet the them is wedding shows.
• 43:23
  So that's kind of where we're at at the moment.
• 43:25
  And I think we've had a.
• 43:26
  It's still a bit hit and miss but we've definitely had some success from the wedding shows.
• 43:29
  Definitely.
• 43:30
  I think that that's a big learning curve as well is that.
• 43:32
  And I'm glad you pushed me to do it, but in a.
• 43:34
  In a way that was controlled looking at KPIs and return investment rather than just going to whatever ones I can get.
• 43:39
  Because in the beginning I was going to wedding shows that were free that I would, you know, do a lot of.
• 43:44
  I did a lot of work on reaching out to venues and trying to connect with venues and get to that open days, that sort of thing.
• 43:49
  Um, and some of those were good.
• 43:51
  Some of the ones I didn't expect to be good were actually good.
• 43:53
  Some of those now don't run anymore.
• 43:55
  So it's, it's a case of you might build a relationship with one venue and do really well there, but the next year that's not on.
• 44:00
  So it.
• 44:00
  I'm still now working out which ones, the free ones are worth my time and not.
• 44:06
  And which ones paid ones are worth my time and not.
• 44:09
  Because some of them are massive investments and when you are newer, you don't have that money to invest on a chance because let's be honest, they're not guarantees of booking.
• 44:16
  Yes, I can work out as hard as I can and be that good personality and vibe with people, but even people I vibed with who I thought, oh yeah, they're going to call me, never do.
• 44:24
  So it's a lot of money to input and time.
• 44:27
  It's your time as well, you know, like working another job.
• 44:30
  I'm working this and doing weddings and weekends and, you know, you could sign up to a wedding show, pay £300 and then get a wedding booking coming in.
• 44:36
  So then you've wasted 300.
• 44:38
  It's always a bit of a risk, but I do love meeting people so I do want to carry on doing them, but I want to make sure I go to the.
• 44:44
  The right ones in the right for the right reasons.
• 44:46
  Yeah.
• 44:46
  So, so important to make those decisions.
• 44:48
  And again, now you're tracking it, we'll be able to look back at the ones you've done and gone.
• 44:52
  Okay.
• 44:53
  This one was really powerful.
• 44:54
  This one was a bit of a waste of time.
• 44:56
  This one, you know, may not have resulted in any bookings, but my relationship with the venue is stronger and they're now recommending me.
• 45:03
  So it's worth me going to the.
• 45:04
  The weaker wedding show, but for the good of the relationship.
• 45:07
  And so actually you can make kind of better decisions and it is always going to be difficult.
• 45:11
  And I think as well, it depends on the supplier type and how much your bookings are worth.
• 45:15
  Because if someone charges, I don't know, £2,000 a wedding, they might not need as many bookings from a wedding show to make that return on investment.
• 45:22
  Whereas if you're a lower ticket kind of supplier, then you're going to need a lot more volume.
• 45:27
  So you do have to weigh it up and you do have to work it out for yourselves.
• 45:30
  But we're getting there and it'll be exciting to see.
• 45:33
  Yeah.
• 45:33
  What happens over the next few months as well.
• 45:35
  Now, before I let you go, Zadie.
• 45:37
  We cannot let this conversation pass by without talking about the new marriage consultation, because as a celebrant, you are going to be right in the middle of this.
• 45:45
  So we know that the UK launched a consult consultation on 16 July, and they are proposing to change the way marriage looks in the UK or in England particularly.
• 45:55
  And they're looking at the idea of regulating efficiency rather than buildings.
• 46:00
  So give us in really basic terms practically, what that actually means.
• 46:04
  What that means is that in line with Scotland and parts of Ireland and Jersey and places like that, that England and Wales would, would come up to their standard of being allowed to have a legally recognized service.
• 46:18
  So what it doesn't mean is, you know, we're not getting rid of.
• 46:20
  Rid of registrar weddings, not getting rid of religious weddings.
• 46:23
  They'll still happen.
• 46:24
  It just means that the law is becoming more in line with modern families and traditions.
• 46:31
  So in England and Wales, you'll then be able to get married pretty much anywhere because it's the person who's marrying you that will be licensed to do, to carry out that legal wedding, rather than the building itself or
• 46:43
  a structure.
• 46:44
  So it means you could get married at the beach legally, maybe in a pub legally, maybe in a forest legally.
• 46:52
  So you won't have to go to the registry office to do your paperwork alongside having your celebration that is personalized to you.
• 47:00
  What that doesn't mean, hopefully, because the consultation is live and it is pending lots of feedback and thoughts and feelings around what's proposed as to whether it goes ahead or not.
• 47:10
  What that hopefully doesn't mean is that it will trivialize marriage in any way or make it.
• 47:13
  Suddenly everyone's getting married underwater or on a roller coaster.
• 47:16
  Because what they.
• 47:18
  What officiants like I will have to do is actually follow a framework to see if that place where they want to get married is, is suitable.
• 47:26
  So it has to be without distraction, you know, not trivializing so that the actual marriage piece, that the joining of two people is the main part of what's happening in that moment.
• 47:39
  So I think that kind of hopefully gives you that in a nutshell.
• 47:42
  Yeah.
• 47:42
  And I think a lot of people don't realize even when they get married today that there are still such outdated laws.
• 47:48
  I think people think that they, because they watch things in America or they see stuff in Scotland and they assume that they can just get married anywhere, even within a venue.
• 47:55
  They don't realize that there's certain places in that venue that are the only places that they can get married or the licensed parts of it or that some venues aren't licensed at all and so they have to do
• 48:06
  it somewhere separate.
• 48:07
  So.
• 48:07
  So as for you as a celebrant, we know that not all the details of this at all are clear yet, but what will it mean for you and your business if this change or some changes go ahead?
• 48:18
  Hopefully it means less resistance to people who want what I offer as a celebrant because it won't be the legal wedding on the same day.
• 48:25
  So less resistance to that from couples, but also from their families and friends.
• 48:29
  You know, often get the whole classic thing of oh, it's a fake wedding, that's not the real wedding.
• 48:34
  Often what I say is that wedding and marriage are separate.
• 48:37
  Marriage is an administrative thing that allows the government to know your status.
• 48:41
  So that's why it's called first deaths and marriages.
• 48:44
  You're either alive, dead or married.
• 48:46
  They're the three statuses that you can be in the uk.
• 48:50
  So that then doesn't have to negate such a large part of you justifying yourself as to why you're choosing this route.
• 48:57
  I guess as a personal thing for me, what it allows my couples to do is something I'm very passionate about and how having choice and being able to make an informed decision because more people will, it will be
• 49:08
  more well known and less resistance from venues saying, you know, just go and book your registrar, things like that, because the whole game has changed.
• 49:18
  Which then means that couples can truly have that personalized, meaningful day and be legalized without having extra payment of a registrar out to your venue or statutory ceremony at the registry office, without having extra pressure of yet justifying
• 49:32
  or explaining it to family and friends and without having the stress of such a formal scary process.
• 49:40
  For some couples, that's how they find sometimes the civil weddings.
• 49:44
  But it also means they can be in line with more modern families.
• 49:48
  Like we have more blended families now.
• 49:49
  We have more, you know, mixed cultured families that for them either a religious wedding because only one of them is religious, or a civil ceremony where it's, you know, quite standard, scripty isn't for them.
• 50:01
  It's not right for them.
• 50:02
  They want to feel acknowledged as the family that, that they are, not as what the law needs them to say.
• 50:09
  So yeah, it just puts the choice and much more ability into the couple's hands.
• 50:14
  And that's, that's the most important thing for me.
• 50:15
  Yeah.
• 50:16
  And personally, that's what I'm really hoping to see off the back of this.
• 50:19
  I think, I think we definitely will See that people can get married in different places, but I.
• 50:24
  I think it would be a shame at this point if they could get married at different places.
• 50:28
  But it still has to be so black and white.
• 50:30
  I think one of the, you know, I talked about this before, but one of the things that makes me sad is that if someone does want a grandparent to say a prayer or they want a hymn that they
• 50:38
  remember from school played, they're not actually allowed to do that at their civil wedding at the moment, and which is absolutely balmy to me.
• 50:46
  And so I hope that they will be allowed to have choice in their ceremony as well as the location.
• 50:51
  And they don't always know that until the day the registrar can turn around on the day and say, no, you're not allowed that piece of music.
• 50:56
  And I think that's the.
• 50:57
  The thing is, is it's not well signposted.
• 50:59
  It's not well clear.
• 51:00
  We have registrars, you know, calling themselves, which they are allowed the term celebrant, because they actually came up with the term celebrant before, you know, independent celebrants were a thing.
• 51:08
  But like, they try and say that they'll tell your story, they'll make it personal, which is quite misleading for couples because obviously they're trying to keep some more of the market and feel that celebrants may be coming in
• 51:18
  as a threat to that.
• 51:19
  But for couples, they don't understand the difference.
• 51:21
  It's like, I was liking it when I was at university and they put on a student, student event and it really mattered to the university and the students union who owned that event.
• 51:28
  Right.
• 51:28
  The student union are paying for this event.
• 51:30
  It's a student union event.
• 51:31
  The uni students did not care whether that event was run by the students union or the university.
• 51:37
  They just wanted to go to the event.
• 51:38
  And that is how I look at this today, is like, couples don't care that, you know, it's your quarter, celibate your quarters.
• 51:44
  They just want the truth and what they can and can't have.
• 51:47
  And that is not being clearly signposted at the moment, I feel.
• 51:50
  And that's.
• 51:50
  Hopefully this, this marriage reform will help rectify some of that.
• 51:53
  Yeah, I hope so, too.
• 51:55
  So what does it mean for the wider industry then?
• 51:56
  Because obviously we know that it impacts you greatly as a celebrant yourself.
• 52:00
  But what do you think the impact is going to be on the rest of the industry, from venues to florist cake makers?
• 52:07
  Why should they be paying attention?
• 52:08
  It's a really good question.
• 52:10
  And it's hard for me to, you know, I can't answer on behalf of other people, but the things I foresee happening, obviously venues no longer having to, to pay a license fee to have their venue license, which in
• 52:20
  some ways is great, but in other ways they might feel or worry that people are going to go and get married elsewhere because they don't need to pay for a venue anymore.
• 52:28
  They can get married at the beach.
• 52:29
  But what I would say to that is people are still going to want to have a party somewhere.
• 52:32
  People still, a lot of people won't feel akin to run off down the beach or in a forest.
• 52:36
  They will still want a venue to make that easier for them.
• 52:38
  So I would say to venues that, you know, hopefully you'll be able to come up with more creative, creative ways to offer for your offerings without the stress of having to have that venue license.
• 52:47
  However, my understanding is in the current proposals, venues can still opt to have their venue licensed once every however many years so that it's pre approved because as a celebrant I will have to go to the venue to
• 52:59
  approve it.
• 52:59
  Whether that be the beach or a hotel or a, you know, stately home.
• 53:03
  I would have to go to that venue and approve it based on the framework.
• 53:06
  So if they can get that pre approved and that that makes it easier.
• 53:09
  So who knows what will actually happen with that.
• 53:12
  And hopefully that won't be the same cost, I imagine, for florists and stylists and things like that.
• 53:18
  I'm not sure it's going to have too much of a difference other than they will suddenly have a lot more creative opportunities in other types of venues.
• 53:28
  So they will be able to actually do things they never done before, have new photos taken, have new exciting experiences, I suppose, and move away from that or be able to niche down into something specific like we are
• 53:40
  wedding stylists who do woodland ceremonies, something specific to that.
• 53:45
  In terms of other wedding businesses.
• 53:47
  I think it will affect everybody in terms of couples knowing what they are allowed to have and asking for more.
• 53:54
  Basically that the couples will now know that they have more rights than they used to have.
• 53:58
  So they'll be able to ask more and probably higher exposure expectations.
• 54:02
  But hopefully the whole wedding industry is behind couples having more choice.
• 54:07
  A lot of wedding suppliers I work with already often say to me, oh thank goodness, it's a celebrant wedding.
• 54:12
  We much prefer these.
• 54:13
  So again, it gives people a little more excitement around what can be achieved for couples when they're more invested in.
• 54:19
  What they can have, and I heard someone else say as well, which I thought was an interesting perspective, is that potentially couples may have more money to spend in some of the other creative areas, because if they decide
• 54:29
  that spending a lot of money on a bigger venue isn't for them and it will.
• 54:32
  Will still be for some people, of course it will be, but maybe there isn't.
• 54:35
  But actually maybe they want to spend more money on their flowers instead, or they're.
• 54:38
  Or getting a bespoke dress or, you know, so actually it may free up budget for other areas of the wedding if they decide not to go in the venue.
• 54:45
  And I think we're a creative industry, I think creativity will go through the roof.
• 54:49
  I cannot wait to see some weddings in some really cool different kinds of places because those restrictions are lifted.
• 54:55
  And also hopefully, depending on, depending on what comes through, seeing some of those blended weddings happening in different kinds of places, rather than just feeling like they're restricted to certain areas of society.
• 55:06
  So it will be a really interesting thing.
• 55:08
  Now all of the wedding industry can get involved and I think we should all be getting our thoughts in whether they're positive, negative, whether we're worried about things, whether there's particular things we want to see happening.
• 55:18
  And I believe that we have until the 24th of September to go and comment on the government consultation.
• 55:24
  I'll make sure I put the link so it's easy for people to find inside the show.
• 55:28
  Notes.
• 55:29
  What, what should people be saying on this consultation?
• 55:31
  Why should they be getting involved even if they're not a celebrant?
• 55:34
  So I think you should be getting involved on behalf of all your future couples, ones that you can be knowledgeable about it and talk to it, to your couples.
• 55:41
  You know, it's great that everyone gets behind it, but also because this is the biggest reform change we've seen in hundreds of years and the only chance you're going to get input on that.
• 55:50
  So even if you just read the paper and don't fill it, you know, be knowledgeable about it.
• 55:54
  But if you can fill in the consultation, then all celebrants, all couples, you know, the whole industry are going to be better for it, and I'm really grateful to you for that and just fill in your honest opinions.
• 56:04
  A lot of the questions are quite like you do need to have read the paper.
• 56:07
  I read what I did was read each section and then go and answer that question.
• 56:11
  A section.
• 56:11
  Go and answer that question.
• 56:12
  Because the question won't make sense unless you've just read that section and make you know, make sense of it.
• 56:16
  But if you aren't sure, if something doesn't make sense to you, reach out to me.
• 56:19
  I'm always happy to talk it through as to what that might mean in practical terms, if you aren't sure how to answer that, and you don't have to answer every question, so you might not have an opinion on
• 56:28
  every question, but there'll be definitely ones in there that you can input into, and I really, really hope that you will.
• 56:33
  Yeah.
• 56:34
  And I think as well, like, often the negative voices scream the loudest.
• 56:37
  And I think that's why we need the positivity of the wedding industry, because we might think, yeah, well, everyone's behind it.
• 56:42
  But I guarantee there'll be lots of people out there who are shouting that they don't want this to happen, that they want to keep it as it is, and they will be making their voices heard.
• 56:51
  So if we don't make sure our voices are being heard, because I guarantee almost everyone listening to this podcast will be thinking, yeah, this is a good thing.
• 56:57
  I want this to happen.
• 56:58
  But actually, if we don't make our voices heard and stand up for it and go and fill in that form, the negative voices may win out at the end of the day.
• 57:05
  So I would encourage you, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, yeah, I'm behind this, this, like, take 20 minutes, half an hour out of your day, go fill it in.
• 57:12
  Even if you don't fill in every section and, and show your support if you are in support of it, because not only will the celebrants.
• 57:18
  Thank you.
• 57:18
  But I think for our industry as a whole is going to be a really positive thing.
• 57:22
  And I think the other thing is it's actually going to lead to a lot of pr.
• 57:25
  It's going to lead to a lot of people talking about it in the media, and suddenly weddings are going to be on the agenda again in a way they probably haven't been since COVID when everyone was talking about
• 57:32
  them then.
• 57:33
  And it's an opportunity for you to have.
• 57:35
  Have your say, to talk about it on social media, to, you know, to engage, because couples will be engaged and a lot of couples, as you said earlier, won't even realize they couldn't do these things.
• 57:43
  And so that's going to open up a lot of conversation if it starts entering the mainstream.
• 57:48
  And, yeah, I think it's a really interesting period ahead for our industry, and I can't wait to see what comes out of it next.
• 57:55
  I'm sure there'll be some twists and turns along the way.
• 57:58
  Sadie, before I let you go, I cannot end this conversation without us having a very brief chat about something we both love, and that is Disney.
• 58:05
  I am a big Disney.
• 58:07
  I know that you are as well.
• 58:09
  And one of the things I love about Disney is their incredible customer service.
• 58:13
  I talk about them as a business a lot because I think the way they make you feel, the things they do, like they have such a positive impact.
• 58:21
  And that is why so many people love the place so much.
• 58:24
  So I guess I wanted to know if there's any lessons you personally have learned from Disney or any kind of Disney ideas or inspiration that have informed things you did in your business.
• 58:34
  Yes, definitely.
• 58:35
  I think a lot of it is around the immersion.
• 58:37
  So for me, having my acting background and my events background, immersivity is that word immersivity.
• 58:43
  Immersion is a big thing for me.
• 58:46
  I think people need to feel part of a moment and connected, and that's what Disney does.
• 58:51
  My husband and I, we don't have children, but we love Disney anyway.
• 58:54
  All adults should.
• 58:56
  We went on a Disney cruise on our first wedding anniversary, and we're going again this November.
• 59:00
  I cannot wait.
• 59:01
  Just after our fifth birthday anniversary.
• 59:04
  And one of the things they do really well is as soon as you step on that ship.
• 59:07
  In fact, before you step on the ship, even in the lounge bit where they're on boarding you, you know, the characters are there, every staff member is happy.
• 59:14
  They're very Disney fied, they're very on brand.
• 59:17
  And I think that is key to everything.
• 59:20
  You can never switch off that.
• 59:21
  And that's.
• 59:21
  That's who I am as a person.
• 59:22
  You know, if you see me anywhere, I've always got a smile on my face.
• 59:26
  The energy's the same.
• 59:27
  And that's what Disney do, is that.
• 59:28
  Bring that energy in a way that creates.
• 59:30
  Creates a space that a bubble, almost a bubble where you don't think about anything else for a while.
• 59:35
  And that's what I create in ceremonies and what I try and create in my whole customer experience, that you were allowed to just be in this bubble for a little while, in a trusted, safe space where we're gonna
• 59:46
  create something that people are gonna remember forever.
• 59:48
  Yeah, it's so true.
• 59:49
  I love the Disney bubble.
• 59:50
  That's why I love to go back.
• 59:52
  I went without my children when I was first married.
• 59:54
  Now I've got children.
• 59:55
  I'm taking them too.
• 59:55
  And my oldest son, when I booked our latest trip, he said, I'm so glad we're going back because it's the only time when I don't think about anything else other than just being on holiday.
• 1:00:04
  And I thought, yeah, you know, at that age, he's just about to become a teenager.
• 1:00:08
  And actually it does.
• 1:00:09
  It's a safe.
• 1:00:10
  It feels.
• 1:00:10
  I don't know how they do it, but it just feels like a safe space where the outside world is shut out.
• 1:00:15
  And I think that's what's magical.
• 1:00:17
  And if we can make people feel like that when they're planning their weddings and on the happiest day of their life, then we are absolutely doing something right.
• 1:00:24
  Sadie, it's been so much fun chatting to you.
• 1:00:27
  Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
• 1:00:28
  If people want to find out more, more about you, chat with you, talk to you about the marriage consultation, where are all the best places for them to find you?
• 1:00:35
  I'm normally always on Instagram.
• 1:00:37
  Sorry, scrolling away.
• 1:00:39
  Ceremonies by Zadie is my handle on both Instagram and TikTok.
• 1:00:43
  And then my website is ceremonies by zadie.com fantastic.
• 1:00:46
  And I would encourage you, if you've got questions or if you just want to chat with Zadie, do reach out to her.
• 1:00:50
  She is more than happy to chat with you about marriage consultation, about business, about data, I'm sure.
• 1:00:55
  And then do reach out and chat to her.
• 1:00:58
  Now, I can't let you go before I ask you the question I always ask at the end of my podcast, which is this, what's one thing you personally wish you'd known sooner in your own business?
• 1:01:07
  The one thing I really wish I knew soon as you don't have to do all the things all at once.
• 1:01:11
  That is one sure way to burn yourself out quickly and be no use to anyone.
• 1:01:15
  I tried to do SEO whilst in my website, my brochure, my sales journey, my nurture emails, all of that all at once.
• 1:01:22
  And I end that you end up not doing any of it well.
• 1:01:25
  So finding a way to focus on one thing at a time rather than learning all this stuff online, all the free learning and trying to action it all at once and then ending up just being overwhelmed and not
• 1:01:34
  doing any of it.
• 1:01:35
  So pick one thing at a time and tackle it that way.
• 1:01:38
  And sometimes it's okay to say no.
• 1:01:40
  Yes, yes.
• 1:01:41
  And getting better at that.
• 1:01:43
  Love it.
• 1:01:44
  Zadie, it's been so much fun talking to you.
• 1:01:46
  Thank you so much for your time and I look forward to seeing you soon.
• 1:01:49
  Thanks for having me.
• 1:01:50
  What a great conversation with Zadie.
• 1:01:52
  She is fantastic.
• 1:01:53
  Definitely a kindred spirit with her love of Disney and musical theatre.
• 1:01:57
  But she's got a really smart business brain on her as well.
• 1:01:59
  And I think what she's learned over the last year of us working together is that when she focuses on the data and she focuses on one thing, that's when she starts to see results again.
• 1:02:08
  Once again, encourage you to get involved in this marriage consultation.
• 1:02:11
  If you're based in England or Wales, I'll put the links in the show notes.
• 1:02:15
  And if you've got questions about it, reach out to Zadie.
• 1:02:17
  She'd love to chat.
• 1:02:18
  I'll see you all next time.