Latest / Sorgatron Media Master Feed / Fishing Without Bait 520: Eamon & Merlin on Faith, Curiosity, and Healing
Transcript
- (Müzik) Merhaba, Fishing Without Bait'e hoşgeldiniz. Sonuç olarak, Merlin we help people move from beliefs to facts? I think just kind of living a life in terms of asking yourself constantly, like, what if I'm wrong? Like I can only speak generally for myself. There have been moments in my life where I felt like I knew everything. And honestly, there's nothing worse than when you are in that state and then something happens that challenges that and it feels like you are questioning everything in the world, right? And it makes you, I think that there's such a drop that happens when it comes to that. I think if you live a life where you are constantly curious and constantly like, well, what if I'm wrong? What if, you know, what I think, what I think in this moment is not the full scale of my knowledge of what I will have, you know, a day from now or an hour from now. I think it's a I would just encourage people like it's a more interesting life. It's a more self-fulfilling life. It challenges you. And I think I don't know, I've I've learned a lot through, like, also handling my own anxiety in certain moments where it's like not knowing everything is honestly fine. Like it's there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with developing knowledge. And so I think that's where and again, that's the difference between beliefs. In fact, it's very hard when you have a stringent belief to delineate. But when you let facts play out, when you just live life and, you know what happens, happens in certain in certain respects like, you know, and to not be scared of that, I think is when we grow then more is like a fact based, you know, belief system. I want to make it clear to all our viewers that this is not an us against them podcast. No, no, absolutely not. I know you're not you're not coming across like that at all. But some people may view that as this country has never been as divided ideologically as it is today. Yeah, no, ever. And the we all play in the same team. Yeah. Like, look, America has a very bloody past and a very, a very nasty past built on bigotry. and horrendous things that we have done in the name of that bigotry. But we also have this idea that we're a cultural melting pot and that we are made who we are by blending. Blending culture together, like people that came from Europe, people who came from, you know, like the indigenous people here, people that came from Africa through the chattel slave trade, people who have come from East Asia, you know, all these different regions of the world can come together in America and build something that they can't really anywhere else because nowhere else does culture blend like it does here. Like, we have the most diverse population of any nation. You know, I'm talking out of my ass there, that might not be true, but I'm pretty sure it's true. And the fact that we are so against each other based on those differences, when we could be celebrating the things that we have in common and taking those differences and building from them. - Well, that's the thing too, it's not ignoring the differences, right? - Right, it's celebrating them. - Finding the commonality, but also not ignoring the differences. and I think there's-- - Learning from the differences, right? - Yes, 100%. - Because there are things that they got right that we got wrong. - Right. - And things that we got right that they got wrong. And we can trade information and grow together. - Yeah, and I can only speak from personal experience, but I feel like, I don't know, I feel like there's this lie that I hear sometimes when people talk about the fact, which is the fact that we are more divided now, that prior to that, when we were less divided, we were having less conversations that were divisive. And I actually disagree with that, at least in my personal experience. I think the most, the times in which we have felt more commonality is when we've had more conversations. I feel like, and typically, I find there's a juxtaposition in a lot of people today who will promote the idea of that, but then will stifle conversation in a very subtle way. I think- so subtle or not so subtle. I don't know. I always had, you know, conversations where we let our guard down and sort of like spoke to either biases or perceptions. And it built into something where you had a better understanding of each other. I think that was very much the case for me growing up. And I feel like there is a misnomer sometimes that we have to, you know, not, again, like you said, celebrate the differences and sort of like communicate through those differences. Like I think that's, you know, natural in many regards. Well, that's how you build community. Yeah. A hundred percent. You have to know the other people that you're leaning on and trust that they will catch you when you fall. And the way that you do that is by speaking to each other and learning about each other. And that's how you build trust. It's like, I'm not going to trust the stranger. I need to know this person. I need to know this person and I need to know something about their community. If they are a stranger, I can go, okay, I know these things. Like I know that if I am in danger and I am at a public place and there's a bunch of people running around, find a black woman or find a drag queen. Those are the people who are going to make sure I'm taken care of. You know, like those are the people who are larger than life and who are used to standing up to assholes. And you know, like I know those things because what they've been through, you know, like drag queens are so villainized. Black women are the most villainized people on the planet. Like I just, they have been through so much as a community, so they know how to deal with that adversity. You want to learn from anybody, learn from black women, learn from drag queens and trans women. Like, that is where your real intelligence of building community comes from because they've been doing it for hundreds of years. I think one of the most disrespectful things a person can say to another is, "I know how you feel." Right. Because no one can know how you feel. I think it's a disgust me when a person says that, which really upset me when people tried to usurp the Black Lives Matters voices. - Yeah. - No, no, no, we'll speak for you. No, no you can't. - Yeah. - Well, and that's why we have the black community really backing away now, 'cause they're tired. They have been used and abused by people even on the left who mean well, but who take over these things and decide that, you know, we as white people know the best. No, we don't we've never done this successfully most black women have most people do not listen to learn they listen They listen to respond. Yeah, they do not listen to learn. So Ignorance is one of the most misunderstood words. It doesn't mean a person is stupid. No, it just means they don't have knowledge Socrates once went to the temple of Delphi that Where you get the whatever type of message you get and he came back and he says what did you find out? And they said they said that I was the smartest man in the world I was a wisest man in the world and he says what does that mean to you? And he said I'm the only one in the world who truly understands his own ignorance. Yeah Yeah Like before you are willing to learn you have to know that you don't know Like and that's okay. We villainized not knowing so much so in this Society we like if you don't know you're stupid. No, you're just ignorant and that's okay as long as you are not living in that ignorance. - You can't fill a full cup. - Right, and nobody knows everything. Nobody knows everything. There's always more to learn. And if you are no longer learning, you're dying. That is death to me. That is the definition of death. - That's a stoic philosophy quote. When you stop learning, you start dying. - Yeah, as long as you're willing to learn and grow, you can live a long time. mind. Quite often what we talk about is this expert's mind. Now you often refer to a thoroughbred horse race. Magnificent animals. Do one thing, do it well. But what do they have over their eyes? Blinders. Correct. And so they only see in one direction. I consider that an expert's mind. Have you ever been around a three or a four year old child and you look at everything with absolute wonder? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that was me when I was uneducated, or not uneducated, unmedicated on, uh, with ADHD. Like, like I'm medicated now. My, I can still get distracted, but like, I can also focus on things a lot easier now and can put those blinders on when I need them, but for the most part of the world is still fascinating. And I just don't understand how you remain curious. Always. I don't understand how people like I grew up with the shows like Sesame Street and reading Rainbow on PBS, you know, like those shows encourage children to open their eyes and see the world around them and when they can't see it in person, open a book. Yeah and we always commend children for being inquisitive. Like we promote that idea of like how... Not everybody. Well yeah, but I mean like the sort of like general idea of a child is inquisitive and but I why does that ever Why, like, what changes in a person when you've developed to a certain age? The education system. Yeah, sure. Oh, 100%. But the education system really doesn't teach us to learn, it teaches us to conform. It teaches us to repeat and conform. Yep. They do not teach critical thinking skills. Yeah, they're not, they are not creating people who learn and who engage in the world around them. people to sit in cubicles and do dead-end work for the rest of their lives. We're taught that saying "I don't know" is a terrible thing. Yeah. Like in class, you couldn't say to the teacher, "I don't know." You'd be ridiculed. Yeah. But saying "I don't know" is an actual true statement. I don't know. Yeah. And that's how you learn. Yes. It's like with, I know in recovery one of the things that they talk about is the first step to recovery is admitting that there's a problem. The first step to learning is admitting you don't know. You can't learn something if you don't acknowledge that you didn't already know it. - If I went to a professional, if I went to a doctor and I said, "What's going on with me?" I'd rather him say or her say, "I don't know, but we're gonna find out." - Yeah, because it means that they're actually engaging in something. I know as someone who has a lot of different acronym disabilities under my name. It takes a while and a lot of self-advocacy to get doctors to listen to you. Because some of them believe that going through medical school means they know it all. And they don't. It's the practice for a reason. You know, they're practicing medicine. They're not experts in medicine. Because medicine is constantly evolving and each human is different. There may be some patterns and some echoes from people to people, but every case is unique. Every human is unique. You have to go into that exam room and know that the patient in front of you may be like somebody else, but they are not somebody else. What they're going through is unique to them, and you need to listen to their experiences because no one's an expert in what they're going through but them. Well, they've, some people have already made up their minds. Everyone, there's a core human rights. Everyone has the right to be understood. Everyone has the right to be heard. Everyone has the right to be respected, to be treated as an equal, to be given the benefit of the doubt and the freedom to decide. And here's what I tell people. If you're with individuals who aren't giving you those, what are you doing? Yeah. Plant flowers and pull weeds. Yeah. Like what's the point? I mean, I just, why would you want to look at a desolate landscape around you? Stop trying to grow daisies in a sandbox. It's not what that's for. That's, that's for something else. Don't go there. In the 12 step world. Again, I thought a lot of 12 step talk, but there's a chapter called working with others. And one of the specific things that says, stop knocking on a door. It won't open. You're denying the opportunity to be helpful to someone else. - Yeah. - Yeah. If the door's not opening, it's not for you. Go find a window. Go find another door. Hell, knock down a wall if you need to. - There's always someone you can help. - We're in a country of like, or not just a country, we're in a world of like, you know, billions of people. It's like, you know, you will find someone who will, you know. - We live in an individualistic society that says the self will can conquer any problem. That is not true. We need each other. Yeah, well I mean it comes down to misogyny and how we decided that women had to be devalued in order to lift up men. And that's, the reason I bring that up is because women have always been the cornerstone of community. And there's a reason that they were devalued is because they were the ones that were able to bring people together. they were the ones who were like building community and building connections and making each other stronger because they were afraid of the power we had together. I've often thought that a lot of marriage ceremonies could, it should include a branding ceremony. Geez. Glad we didn't. Although we have considered tattoos. The male puts a brand on the female saying you're mine. Oh, Merlin definitely again wants the, the couple tattoo, but it's definitely a little more more loving. Young ladies begin to lose their self-conscience, self-concept and self-esteem around the age of nine. I didn't make that up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's when a comparison game begins. Well and sometimes earlier, you know, those of us who have been through abuse at young age, you start to do that a lot sooner, you know, and you, you start to devalue your self-esteem self because other people are happy and you're not and you don't understand that the reason you're unhappy is because of trauma and like a kid can't conceive of that. They don't have the words to, to put, they just know this sucks. That's about as much as they know, you know, and they think that everybody's going through that because why wouldn't they think everybody goes through that? Because they're told that it's normal and they're told, Don't talk about it to anyone. No one else will understand. You know, keep the secret. And it's like that again, it's silencing people to take away their power. That is at the root of systems of oppression is keeping people apart because they don't have strength and power in as an individual, they have to separate us so that we don't have that strength. There's a lot of studies that so young boys at the age of three or four are often more emotional than women at the girls at the same age. However, at some point they joined a men's club. I thought that's what I consider and they get into this thing that the only acceptable emotion that a man can share with others is anger. It's anger. Yeah. And it's, it's a poison living with only that is poison. Like, And because the boys who catch on, right, they are then turned around and used to enforce it on other boys. By calling them, you know, sissies. By calling them faggots. You know, that was one thrown at me a lot even before I knew what the hell that was, right? Like, it's, we are villainized, are very, like, people are meant to have both masculinity and femininity inside of them, but the femininity is beaten out of little boys at such a young age that we lose half of ourselves. - I mean, like for me, like that was, you know, and 'cause I was always the shortest, I was always the, you know, not the most manly, I was not the most athletic, I was not all the tenants of what you would expect. And the way my brain worked was even before I came out, like I had thought that I was just programmed in a way where it's like I didn't like, like I thought it was asexual at a certain point, honestly. And I think now, and I'm like, wow, like, you know, the, there is an under, and there are people who are genuinely asexual, but I, there was a thing I was telling myself because of these perceptions that, you know, you're talking about where I thought to myself, I couldn't experience love or something deeper because that's just how I was. And it's a it's a lie. It's a lie that, you know, we tell ourselves. And it's a lie that gets put on us through society and and different messaging. And yeah, it's it's it's just it's you know, it's very sad. In many ways. I mean, I I knew from a very young age that I was gay. I didn't know what gay was, but like I went through, you know, sexual abuse from the age of six to the age of 12. Um, and I knew that even though like knowing now, right, like I know that it was not my fault and I knew that, or I know now that, you know, there was, um, that what was done to me was not okay. But at the time I didn't know there was anything wrong with what was happening. At the time I was just enjoying sex because that's what sex is, right? It should be enjoyable. And I didn't know that that's what it was, you know, but I knew that it made me feel good and so I kind of welcomed it. And then when I had words for it, it was like, "Oh, that shouldn't have been happening to me." response to the trauma because you don't really know What You went through until you have context for it later And so the whole time growing up in this evangelical society, right? I'm Knowing that I'm different and knowing Exactly what's different about me but knowing that that's evil and so I deserve to go to hell as a six-year-old You deserve to go to hell. Yeah Did you believe that I did and I still get into those holes today because it was so Deeply ingrained in me that even through years of deconstruction of that. It's still in there Actually, Jesus would laugh at a thought like that. Oh, I know we would laugh out loud I know he would because it has nothing to do with anything that he taught like I went through in college, I sat down with myself and was like, "Okay, I need to figure out what the truth is here." And so I did, I was going to a Christian college at the time, and I did a deep biblical study on like the clobber passages, which are the passages that people traditionally use to go against homosexuality. I went and dissected all of those things. I looked into the relationship of King David and Jonathan. And I went and like learned all of these things, right, and dug into everything. And what I found was that most of what I was taught, in fact I'd say 98 percent of what I was taught, was absolute bullshit. And the 2% that was real was twisted. And that's, there was a veil ripped out from in front of my eyes. And there was, I was like, you know what? There is truth here, there is goodness here, but I can't be anywhere near this anymore. I can't call myself a Christian anymore. I can still have a relationship with God. I can still nurture that spiritual connection, but I can't be part of this religion because there is so much hate and there are, you know, thousands of years of lies told to oppress people and hurt people and rip them to shreds, and I won't be treated like that anymore. I won't go somewhere for healing and have them rip me apart. It's just, it can no longer be part of who I am. And I deconstructed all of that through years. I learned to look into other world religions, ended up becoming pagan, and still believe in God and Jesus and all of that, but I feel like most of what's written in between is metaphor or lies. There's goodness in the world, there's goodness in the universe, there is energy out there that a lot of people call God. Some people will call, a lot of millions of people call it Allah. There are people from ancient Celtic realms split that up into different gods, Roman deities, you know, Greek deities. It's the same energy. It's the same existence of the divine. Well said, Merlin. And it's the same energy that birthed humanity and will be here long after humanity is extinct. Well said. Well said. We're coming back next week to continue our conversation with Merlin and Eamon. And I know you're waiting for this, the free prescription, Fruits, Nuts, and Vegetables. unplug your television and take up fishing. And for a truly mindful experience, we strongly suggest you fish without bait. Do a kindness for yourself and do a kindness for another. Forgive yourself and forgive another if we're all not God's children and none of us are. Till all are free, none are free. Namaste, my friends. Please check out our website at fishingwithoutbait.com where you can listen to the show, comment on our discussions, and find out where you can subscribe to our podcast. 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