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Episode #93: We’ve Been Duped By “Regenerative” · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: The most common idea is find a category and jump in.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas I'm I'm I'm never trying to find a category, you know.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but that's the difference between uh whatever uh an entrepreneur maverick and you know everybody else, I guess.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everybody else is looking looking for the for the pond they want to jump into, and I'm jumping out of the pond heading somewhere else.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I haven't used the you know the categorized terms.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's because you actually live beyond labels, right?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, welcome to another edition of Beyond Labels.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Stina McKella here with my favorite co-host, farmer Joel Salatin.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: And today we're actually going to talk about the label of regenerative agriculture.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think most of us have actually been duped by this label.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: It is not what we think it is.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: And now the USDA is funding big ag in their efforts to become, quote, regenerative, which Joel, that's our first clue that regenerative may not be what we think it is.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, you know, the truth, Cena, is that uh that that all all of these words, all these words, I mean, you know, I I lived through, you know, the the sustainable, everything was sustainable, and then the the big tech, you know, co-op is sustainable, and then it was uh organic, and then the big tech uh got organic.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: So then you know the new one was regenerative.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, you know, um that there's never gonna be a time when big tech doesn't try to co-opt whatever whatever words um that we, you know, that we use to try to differentiate.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's this, you know, it it's a constant, it's a constant tension between uh trying to differentiate and then trying to um whatever, you know, trying trying to glum on, trying to glum on to the differentiation.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah, that's exactly it's exactly what we've got.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and I'm not surprised.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: So most of us, I I bet most of us think of the labels as like it starts with conventional, right?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the one that you they can use GMOs, they can use um chemical spray, and they do, they can use biosolids, which we've discussed, which is like a liquid slurry from KFOs, for instance.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: They can use all that in conventional.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it would start with conventional, and then the next best thing would be organic, right, on this continuum, right?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because organic doesn't allow the biosolids, it doesn't allow the GMOs, it doesn't allow um most pesticides and herbicides, for instance.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then on this continuum, we would go to regenerative, which is what most of us would say is beyond organic, right?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we think of it as like this is a um, and this is how it's marketed, that it's a climate change solution, um, that it is beyond organic, that they're like regenerating this soil, right?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this real misconception about it.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And what actually I've been I've been actually redefining this continuum so that it makes more sense based on what we see in practice.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: The continuum is probably this conventional to regenerative, to organic, to beyond organic, or as you would call like ecologically, um, you like to call it like ecologically raised or ecologically grown.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the terms that you've used in the book.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that is the actual continuum.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And now I'm gonna talk about why I think that's the actual continuum.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and you know, seeing the reason the reason I've used uh those terms is because I I just in all my books and all my writing, I I have refused to just let myself get um whatever, get um co-opted by whatever the the the the word de jour, you know, the word of the day is.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and I I just find that here's what I find that as soon as a word becomes the orthodox word, you know, the the mainstream orthodox word, it it cre it creates a category.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh and and then we we get and and as soon as as soon as you have a uh a mainstream category, there's no conversation because people assume they know what it means, and so it shuts off the conversation.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I so so you know, years ago I invented the term you know salad bar beef and pastured poultry and all that, because these are not mainstream terms and and they they simulate a convers.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what's that?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: What's that, you know?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and so so I I've done it's interesting how it seems like the um the most common idea is find a category and jump in.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas I'm I'm I'm never trying to find a category, you know.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's the difference between uh whatever, uh, an entrepreneur maverick and you know everybody else, I guess.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everybody else is looking, looking for the for the pond they want to jump into, and I'm jumping out of the pond, heading somewhere else.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and so that that that's why I haven't used the you know the categorized terms.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's because you actually live beyond labels, right?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what are you so what are you finding, Cena?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so here's a quick rundown of what I have found.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that the the motivation behind regenerative was not the same as the motivation behind organic.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Organic, from my understanding, was largely crafted to focus on the soil health, the fertility of the soil.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, regenerative, it's actually marketed, like I said, as a climate change solution.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: But according to the Real Organic Project, they put on this great symposium, they talked about how um it wasn't actually created to address climate change.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was actually created in the Midwest to decrease costs.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the way they wanted to do that was they wanted to spray less chemical.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: So they came up with this idea if they didn't till, they wouldn't have to spray as much chemical.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: So what the bottom line is here between the difference is that both organic and regenerative agree on certain what I would call positive changes.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Those would include using cover crops, using livestock to, you know, to increase biodiversity and whatnot, and using crop rotation.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: The difference, the main one of the main differences stemmed around the tillage.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So organic would accept tillage over the chemical spray.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we're not talking about plows, right?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about mixing the first like four to six inches of the soil by turning carbon underneath the soil to create, you know, turning plants into the soil to create the carbon.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas yeah, yeah, here's the thing people have to understand.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh that if you're if you're gonna raise a if you're gonna raise a a specific annual crop, not a perennial, not a perennial, but an annual, you know, this is something that you're gonna plant a seed for barley, wheat, oats, corn, soybeans, uh, watermelons, squash, uh, cucumbers, okay.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: If if you're gonna plant, and and and I'm using those because um, you know, there are there generally, you know, when we think of of uh garden of garden vegetable garden produce type stuff, we're thinking in terms of of a little garden.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, if you go to the main, well, I was just in Florida last week and I saw uh you know uh 100-acre fields of watermelons, you know, being picked.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so so if you're gonna grow a hundred-acre field of watermelons, you somehow you have to kill the weeds, kill the side, you have to have a a clean seed bed, or just gets taken over by weeds.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so do you do that through through stirring, through stirring the ground, you know, uh on a garden scale, you'd hoe on a grand scale, you'd you know, you'd run a tractor with a cultivator through of some sort, something that would stir the soil, versus do you use a broad spectrum herbicide?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I'm just trying to bring people along here that if you're gonna uh if you want to plant carrots in your yard, somehow you've got to you've got to get rid of that sod.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just throw carrot seeds on the sod and have them grow.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to do some sort of of seedbed preparation.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what we're just that's what we're talking about here, is how do you how do you get that seedbed preparation so that you can plant a crop?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, scale, scale has a lot to do with this.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're just doing it uh in a in a little garden scale, you can use a spade, a broad fork, you can put down some cardboard, let it sit for three or four months, uh, uh, uh, a tarp like JM Fortier in Quebec, uh uh, and let the earth let the worms till it up.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, we've done that.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've done uh the Paul Gauchy back to Eden, you know, put on uh uh like uh 18 inches of leaves and and chips, let it sit for a year.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you know, let that the let the worms dig it up.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: There are numerous ways to do that, but you can't you can't do that on a hundred-acre watermelon field.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do that on a on a thousand-acre uh corn field.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so things, you know, the the practices uh as a as a practical matter, the practices have to change when you scale to you know uh uh a commercial scale stuff.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and so um the organic, as we as Joel just so eloquently explained, they would rather use like you know the this the tillage, not from a plow, but just tilling the tap of the soil over spraying, and regenerative would rather spray than till, right?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think most of us actually don't realize that, right?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like Joel was saying, regenerative has become a big misunderstood buzzword because big media got involved at the behest of the big industrial interest, right?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so now we have all these big players that are claiming to be regenerative, like Bayer Monsanto, and Singenta and Cargill and Walmart.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like Walmart committed to change 50 million acres of you know their land to regenerative agriculture, right?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's why that was a red flag for me.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, wait, what?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like yeah, well, well, what's what's happened?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think the uh the genesis of this um is also a part of that that the the term regenerative uh kind of was the was the next permutation from what was called conservation agriculture.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, so we we kind of had this this um the sustainable sustainable words which was real early.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, there there was a there is a um an industrial agriculture thread, green thread, if you will.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's the there's the more aggressive the the outside, the outsiders.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: The outsiders grabbed the word organic early on.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Rodale came up with that word back in the back in the uh whatever 50s.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and um and and so uh Rodale basically invented that word, but but those but that was always the outliers.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: The conventional was you know uh uh conservation tillage, um, and then you know, sustainable, and now regenerative.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you have kind of two parallel, you have you have the outlier verbiage, and then you have the the the more uh you know industrial verbiage.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and so the you know the the industrial the industrial was always looking for terminology um uh and and and felt felt like they they couldn't use organic because it was always it was always the the outliers.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was never a USDA, what I call the US duh.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was never a US duh uh um you know accepted word.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, uh your your your evolution of the terminology is exactly right.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was it was conservation tillage, then sustainability, then regenerative.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why the herbicides in in conservation tillage, it was all about replacing the plow with herbicide um and and sustainability, the same thing.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: And now so and I think the word regenerative is actually right for co-opting because it's my understanding that there's no legal definition of what regenerative is.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for instance, the government hasn't come out and defined regenerative, but that I think is starting to shift.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think regenerative, the word is starting to be formalized at the level of the USDA.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's under this term of climate smart.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like they have that climate smart commodity program.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you and I previously reported on this earlier this year.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the USDA um talked about how they were adding on to their new program.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's called the Organic Transition Initiative.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was actually launched in August of 2022.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's part of their um here.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is a quote from the USDA.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I want you to pay attention to the buzzwords that they're using in this quote.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: They said that this organic transition initiative is the USDA's quote, food system transformation effort to support local and regional food systems, expand access to markets to more producers, and increase the affordable food supply for more Americans while promoting climate smart agriculture and ensuring equity for all producers.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: They like, if that's not a grouping of fantastic buzzwords, I don't know what is, like they're saying all the white lingo, right?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Who wouldn't be supportive of all those different things?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: All right, but that was the problem.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: When we when we reported on this during our podcast earlier this year, I said red flags raised in my head, something's wrong with this.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And there's all these people in our movement, food activists, you know, the health and wellness people that were cheering this on.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, yes, by me.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: The government's on our side.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're promoting organics, and we're spending billions of dollars now to turn everything organic.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you and I previously discussed about the car the clibin climate carbon credits, right?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then and they created a system where if you lose carbon in your soil, you actually have to pay them money.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there's all of these problems with this system.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: But now I found some new information regarding what this climate smart agriculture is and who's receiving the funding.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so this is their way of having a regenerative climate smart solution.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: It is actually conventional no-till agriculture.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: So this is no-till with chemical spray.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously, this is not organic based because it's using uh, you know, common pesticides and herbicides.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Again, they aren't tilling, right?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Which is what they're saying is the enemy, right?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: The enemy is tillage.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: So don't till at all costs.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: So they're not tilling, but they are using chemical spray.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And they can legally claim it is regenerative because, like I said, there's no definition.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's actually some reports that some of these main companies are using more chemical spray than conventional farming with tillage.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: So there's so there's more toxins on your food, even though it says regenerative.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then I looked into on the USDA's own website who was actually receiving the funding for this quote organic agricultural initiative.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there are a handful of some small actual organic farms that are receiving funding.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: But by far, the majority of the funding went to major industrial agriculture outfits like these.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um see if any of these raise a red flag to you, Joel.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Tyson, Bayer, Casco, McDonald's, Target, Hershey's, Nestle, Walmart, Kellogg's, Mars, Free-Delight, Urena, Campbell Soup, Singenta and Cargo, Lando Lakes, and Um Butcher Box, which I know you and I have talked about ButcherBox before.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: But does this sound like companies that we you and I would go and support with our dollars?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, I mean, Coca-Cola and McDonald's are definitely uh definitely on my sp special list of of um you know uh uh clean clean food producers.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it it just it it yeah, it's just more it's just it's more of the same, Cena.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's more just uh you know, you you can't the the the the the federal the USDA has uh poo-pooed uh you know poo-pooed you know authenticity from day one, and you can't suddenly give the USDA a bunch of money and expect them to spend it in an authentic way.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it just it just doesn't work that way.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, I uh um what a what a list um and what a what a fraud.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's true, it's a true fraud.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I'm glad you've dug into it.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my main point here was um, like I said, I think a lot of us are being duped, even in this space that that we're in, even the people who are aware of you know the organic loopholes and stuff.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of us, if you go out and ask your friends what does regenerative mean, a lot of them are gonna say something like, oh, they're regenerating the soil, it's beyond organic, it's you know, it's the climate solution, and they're looking for the word.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you're looking at um procuring your food and you're you're looking at different farm websites and whatnot, you're looking for the word regenerative, right?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And because like I said, media grabbed hold of this at the big at the interest of you know, big ag and they've really pushed this word.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't want at least our listeners to be duped by this word.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like saying natural.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is this is natural.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Natural means nothing, any you know what I mean?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can play for anything.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so I just want everybody to be aware that it is not what you think it is, and you've just you've got to know your farmer.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: You you've got to go in there and ask the hard-hitting questions of, you know, do you spray, do you use GMOs and and whatnot?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, wouldn't you think, Joel?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, yeah.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and and and Sina, I th I think it's important for us to just appreciate the human, the human psyche in this.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Look, look, the the easiest way, uh the the two the two things that we as humans, you know, want to embrace.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, everybody wants a bogeyman.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: They they want a bogeyman, they they want they want um they want a clear uh uh understanding of this is bad.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh and so um in you know uh in in conventional agriculture um or in in the narrative tillage because tillage has been so abused uh with the plow, uh uh tillage is is the bogeyman.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: So so so we make a bogeyman, tillage, all right.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And boogeyman?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh a boogeyman, well, bogeyman, bogeyman, whatever, but but anyway, you we got a bad guy, all right?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've never heard it called bogeyman.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'll have I'll have to grab my dictionary here and and and check it out.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm sure you're right.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: You are the master editor.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: I've you don't want to correct my grammar in my emails.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just always call that a boogeyman.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well are you actually grabbing your dictionary?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'll grab the dictionary here and uh and check it out here.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're right.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: You're my walking dictionary.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: I have a I have a I have a paper, a paper dictionary, see?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh you know, it's a book.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's called a book.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, if I said that to my kids the other day, we'll have to look it up in the dictionary.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I've got younger kids, obviously, and they're like, What's a dictionary?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Here you go, Cena.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Here it is, Cena.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Bogeyman.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh now you know what's interesting?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it can be pronounced either.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Huh, so we're both right.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um bogey, bogeyman can be pronounced either boogeyman or bogeyman, either one, but there isn't, but but it's Spelled B-O-G-Y-M-A-N.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have two O's.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: So so uh it can it can be spelled two ways.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: It can either be spelled B-O-G-Y or B-O-G-E-Y.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: So either spelling is correct.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: And if you spell it B-O-G-E-Y, it's Boogeyman.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And if you spell it B-O-G-Y, it's Bogeyman.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's your uh I'm not wrong on one of these.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, you're not.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're both right.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, so so back back to the initial idea.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: The initial idea is we we love we love, I'm gonna say bogeyman.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: We love we love a bogeyman, you know, and so so anything that deals with that bogeyman, we want to embrace.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I mean that that's a natural human tendency.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: The other tendency is to always hope that somebody has a solution.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean, we're you know, we we're always grasping for hope.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: That that's a human, you know, in a human instinct.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: We we we want hope.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you combine uh we combine the the bogeyman with the perennial hope, it it makes us duplicitous.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: It makes us uh um uh want to accept things uh you know quickly and early in the game.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um and we don't we don't want to think we're being duped.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to think that we're that that that the the promised solution is really uh just clever speak and word speak and and greenwashing.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we don't want to believe that.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh so you know I understand why and how you know uh uh people you know people run onto this because oh finally, you know, uh some people are seeing it my way, you know, and and and that's encouraging.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we love that.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but uh but you know, if you're if you're expecting, you know, Coca-Cola, McDonald's, and Cargill uh to see it your way, um uh it's gonna be a you know, it's gonna be a gonna be a long time.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's difficult too, because you know, even us that are in this space that people are looking to, that like they would consider you an expert in your field.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an expert in my field.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: People look to us um and others like Zach Bush and whatnot for answers, for some, you know, at least give me some guidance, put me on the right direction, you know, and we're happy to do that.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: But the point I'm making is we're also human.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I also didn't really understand the terminology of regenerative.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: I have used that word in the past when I'm saying, like, oh yeah, I'm looking for, like, I buy organic, you know, slash or regeneratively grown food.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because in my mind, I thought it was beyond organic.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we are fallible as well, you know?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's very confusing for people when you're hearing people throw out these terms um and they have been co-opted, and there are no definitions, like legal, legally defined terms.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we hear someone else say it.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm I've heard Dr.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Bush talk about it quite often.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like, yes, that makes sense.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I want regenerative actually move beyond organic too, because I know about all the loopholes they have.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I glommed onto that word too.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you and I were writing the book together, you were like, I don't think we should use that word.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I was like, but why?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like Zach Bush is using it and he's all about the soil, and I don't know, you know what I mean?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so finally, now I get it.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm understanding.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: They're just they're using the word.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: If there's no, even if there is a definition, okay, that as like there is with organic, they're still co-opting the word, finding the loopholes, twisting it into something that it's not.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: But particularly when there's no definition, like regenerative or natural, you can make that into anything that you actually want.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like when we're speaking in this space, we almost have to constantly define what we mean as we're talking about it, right?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because regenerative sounds like you are regenerating the soil.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that was what I always thought about, you know, like, oh, of course I want to do that.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that a lot of um large-scale producers in the organic industry that are actually certified organic, they're not regenerating the soil.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they just don't do that.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so, of course, I'd want to go toward a term that other people are saying is regenerating the soil, right?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, one other thing, Cena, we're gonna we're gonna close this out.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh one one other just little thing that I'll say is that I I think I think that there is a there is a an emotional fatigue.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's an emotional fatigue factor in this.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Those those of us, um, and I'll I'll include both you and I in this, those of us who have fought for authenticity, we fought for integrity, we fought for, you know, clear uh clear explanation, and and um and and and whole organizations, you know, whole organizations have been devoted to this for a long, long time.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh some and this this uh this battle we're in, you know, um if if Rodale I've got I pull another book off the shelf here, the complete book of uh composting, uh back you know, from 19 or mid-1950s when Rodale invented the term organic.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um or or you know, uh back in the in the 40s, actually, the the organic gardening and farming magazine started in the 40s.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the the term organic has been really around with us since about night the mid-1940s, right about World War II.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and so we're in a we're in we're in the 60, we're in the 60s years of this battle.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um and what happens is over time um f fatigue sets in, and and people just uh I'm so tired of wrangling.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so tired of wrangling over this all the time.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, you're right.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh Alan Savory uses the term uh regenerative all the time.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I hear it, I hear it on our side, routinely used, and and as soon as it came out and and I knew that it was being used by the you know, by the same people who'd used sustainability uh uh and and and and conservation all the time, I knew that it was uh that it was gonna be too too blanket a word, too broad a word.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was not gonna, it was not gonna have precision of of meaning.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and I think what happened among you know some of some of my friends is they just they've just fought it so hard and fought it for so long that that you finally just fatigue sets in, you say, okay, you know, um we'll we'll just we'll just use their word, you know, and and and and we shouldn't do that.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: We should and I don't like regenerative because it's just so hard to say.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's so long, you know, it's it's a big long word.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it it clogs up your books, it clogs up your speaking, it clogs up everything.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: So um I you know I I just don't like uh I just don't like the word because it's so hard to say.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but anyway, that that that's just me as a as a wordsmith.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I I really appreciate you digging into this, Cena.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think um I think this is very helpful, and I think it's a little bit eye-opening for a lot of people uh to realize how how um how the movement itself uh um you know ebbs and flows through you know enthusiasm and fatigue and how we ourselves, how we ourselves, our own, you know, subconscious um grasps for the bogeyman and the hope, and that and that tension, um that tension clouds our, you know, it clouds our discernment, it it clouds our understanding.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so it we we you know you you gotta you gotta dig into it.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Any last words before we close out?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um well two things come to mind.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really grateful to have you as a partner so you can help us understand, you know, slew through this um weed-infested space.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not talking about the good weeds, the herbal weeds you can eat, the medicinal weeds, yeah, yeah, bad weeds, you know.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that's number one.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and number two, to me, this is just I keep thinking as we're doing this podcast, you've really got to go beyond the label.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know we say that, but come on, seriously, we we can't even trust the regenerative word anymore.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've got to just stop trusting these labels.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: You you've got to find people, you know, in your sphere.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now you can buy from a lot of farms online and have them shipped to you.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I like we have lots of options now, more so than we've ever had.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like we've got to just really put our dollars and our faith and our trust into those people that we find that are trustworthy, and even stop labeling the food if we can't.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm sitting here thinking on the spot of what am I gonna say?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like when people, what do you eat?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, food I trust.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know what I'm saying?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm eating, I eat trustworthy food, and I define what that means.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: So just like them, I'm gonna change my definition as I learn more and more about the system and what they're putting in my food, right?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and and get and guess what?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as you use that word, that's gonna stimulate a conversation.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you say, well, I'm using organic or or I'm using uh sustainable or uh I'm using um uh regenerative, oh yeah, I do that too, you know, or whatever.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it it there's there's no there's no additional conversation about it.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so so here we are, we're we're talking completely past each other.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: We think we're communicating, but we're actually not communicating, which is the worst kind of communication when you think you're communicating and you're not communicating, right?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh this is this is this yeah, this has been really helpful, Cena.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I appreciate your openness and transparency to to appreciate, you know, uh uh how easy it is for us to get whatever uh caught up, you know, in a in a in an exciting um you know what we hope is a is a solution to our bogeyman.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um we we we we bring all spheres here, you know, dictionaries, the whole thing.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, good old good old uh Webster.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Good old Webster here, you know.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um thanks everybody for listening to this uh podcast with us Beyond Labels.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you like this, share it with your friends, and we look forward uh Cena and I to visiting with you on our next Beyond Labels podcast.