Latest / Constellations and all that... / 91. Ancestral Healing, Body Wisdom & the Ripple Effect of Family Constellations with Aleksandra Shymina

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91. Ancestral Healing, Body Wisdom & the Ripple Effect of Family Constellations with Aleksandra Shymina · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:03
  I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators from, and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Kia ora, everyone.
• 0:34
  Welcome to Constellations And All That.
• 0:37
  This evening I have the pleasure of chatting with Aleksandra Shamina.
• 0:43
  Kia ora, Aleksandra.
• 0:44
  Welcome.
• 0:45
  It's so lovely to have you here.
• 0:47
  Thank you, Tracy, and good morning to everyone.
• 0:50
  Yes.
• 0:51
  It's winter, and it's evening, and it's f- for me, and it's summer and s- and morning for you, so- Yeah it's, it's the beauty of technology, hey?
• 1:01
  Yeah.
• 1:02
  I'd love for you to please introduce a little bit about yourself for the listeners and the viewers so they can get to know you a little more.
• 1:08
  Sure.
• 1:09
  Thank you for having me.
• 1:11
  I am based in the UK.
• 1:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:13
  Uh, I'm originally Ukrainian, Russian.
• 1:17
  Um, I was born in Soviet Union.
• 1:20
  I'm practicing constellations, systemic ritual, and, uh, shamanic work, and, uh, recently also transpersonal psychotherapy for the last 10, 15 years, uh, in the UK.
• 1:34
  Before that, uh, I trained in law, and I worked in the charity sector.
• 1:39
  But in the recent years I'm very focused on healing work, basically I would call that, and healing work on a, on a global scale.
• 1:49
  Yeah.
• 1:50
  Of course- Yeah … I, I work with individuals and groups, but my kind of, uh, my own inner picture of that is the, the globe, the planet.
• 2:00
  It's like the ripple effect Ripple effect and also ripple effect, uh, temporal, uh, you know, in time as well as- Mm … in, in space.
• 2:10
  'Cause the, the work that we do as you know, that, uh, ripples out into the past, into the future.
• 2:17
  So it's kind of a very beautiful, big- Mm … multi-dimensional work.
• 2:23
  Yeah.
• 2:24
  It is.
• 2:25
  It's interesting how I… You said, um, that you used to be a l- a lawyer, and I've actually interviewed and spoken to a number of facilitators that used to be lawyers, and now they're facilitators.
• 2:37
  And I wonder, I mean, um, s- surely it's worlds apart.
• 2:41
  That's my assumption, but is it?
• 2:43
  I imagine.
• 2:44
  I don't know, actually.
• 2:45
  But I, I do know, uh, also several of my colleagues from the law a- uh, you know, training who, um, went into psychology after that, and who are practicing psychotherapists.
• 2:58
  So maybe there is some, um… I, I don't actually know.
• 3:02
  I never thought about it.
• 3:04
  'Cause in, in law there is also something about how humans operate, you know?
• 3:09
  It, it, like- Yeah … in, in, in the very beginning, law was developing as a way to set boundaries, to regulate the, um, relationships between, between people.
• 3:24
  So at, at the foundation level, maybe there is a correlation with, uh, psychology and, and trying to understand and maybe, um, find ways on how to improve the relationships between people.
• 3:37
  Mm. But of course on, on another level they're, they are, uh, a world apart.
• 3:42
  Yeah.
• 3:43
  We don't see it like that, right, but yeah.
• 3:44
  It's beautiful when you think about the roots of different things too, isn't it?
• 3:48
  When, like how do we know where something actually originated?
• 3:52
  Yeah.
• 3:52
  I think on the, uh, both of them- probably originate from the philosophy field, right?
• 3:59
  So, uh, at the, at their core, their foundation, they, they're both having roots into the philosophical, uh, attempt to understand how the world works and, um, but then law goes one direction and psychology goes another direction, and then applied psychology is something else completely, right?
• 4:17
  Hmm.
• 4:18
  I don't know.
• 4:19
  I, I don't know what applied psychology- Well, it's s- psychotherapy.
• 4:22
  So it's psychology as a, as a science- Right … tries to understand how, but the applied to psychology or psychotherapy is actually working with the person on what, you know- Right.
• 4:33
  Okay … yeah I get it.
• 4:35
  Yeah … how to have a better, better life.
• 4:37
  Yeah.
• 4:38
  Beautiful.
• 4:39
  Ab- absolutely.
• 4:40
  So tell me, how did you, how did you get into constellations?
• 4:44
  How did you first meet it?
• 4:46
  It was my own journey, right?
• 4:48
  I was, I was on a journey of ancestral healing and, um, not because I was lacking something, but, um, more because… Well, I, I discovered, I, I had, uh, several conversations with people who were into that, and they asked me some questions about my, um, my ancestors, my grandfather's family that experienced a lot of tragedy and, and pain.
• 5:19
  And the question they asked me was, "What happened to that pain?
• 5:22
  Did they have a chance to mourn?
• 5:24
  Did they have a chance to grieve?
• 5:26
  Did they have a chance to, you know, attend to it somehow?" And I had no answers to that.
• 5:32
  I never thought about that before.
• 5:34
  They, they were just, uh, stories that, uh, were in the family about what happened before, but I've never actually looked at them as something that happened to real people.
• 5:45
  And, um- What a potent question… so that, that really started me so alive and real that I was like, how did I never think about it?
• 5:56
  Mm. So I started, uh, researching more and asking questions, and then looking for, um, frameworks or modalities or ways how, how can I do something about it, you know, if, if I am to do something about it.
• 6:11
  And, uh, since I was asked this question, I thought I am probably meant to be doing something about it.
• 6:18
  Um, so I tried several different modalities and came across constellations as part of that.
• 6:26
  It actually happened after my grandmother died- Hmm… in, uh, 2013.
• 6:33
  Yeah, and, and as, uh, s- straight after, somebody suggested to, to try a constellation, and I booked the first workshop that came up on Google.
• 6:43
  And, uh, uh, when I came to the workshop, sat down in, in a circle, never, never done anything like this before, or sort of, and, uh, the person sitting next to me had the same name that my grandmother had.
• 6:57
  Wow.
• 6:57
  And I thought, "Hmm." So, um, so then after the workshop I was so impressed that, um, I thought that I would train in it just to understand the mechanics behind it.
• 7:11
  Mm. And, uh, the guy who ran the workshop was the director of the Centre for Systemic Constellations in London.
• 7:18
  So I went to train in it, and I was doing it all, all for my own, uh, understanding, for my own healing, for my own journey, for my ancestral journey.
• 7:29
  And then with time and more training, friends started asking to do it for them, and, uh, and, and that's how I started.
• 7:37
  Um, never meant to actually do this as a- Mm … as a profession, but now I can't imagine doing anything else.
• 7:45
  Wow.
• 7:46
  That's beautiful.
• 7:47
  Yeah.
• 7:48
  It's amazing when you find something that fits you so well, right?
• 7:52
  Absolutely.
• 7:53
  Uh, I've had a few different, um… What's the word when you've got a few different careers or a few different hats I've worn over the time, and then when you find the one that, like, fits really well, it's like, wow.
• 8:06
  Yeah.
• 8:06
  This is, this is amazing stuff.
• 8:09
  Yeah, exactly.
• 8:10
  Mm. When, when you meet new people, how do you describe it?
• 8:14
  If they ask you, "Oh, what do you do?" Well, it depends on who they are.
• 8:18
  Yeah.
• 8:19
  'Cause I, 'cause I believe that, uh, the, this, uh, this work can be described in a variety of different ways.
• 8:25
  Uh, and because, you know, I have a slightly academic perspective on it, and I have a shamanic perspective on it, um, so I can either talk about it from a, a deeply spiritual way or- Mm from quite a psychotherapy related way, because it did come out from the field of psychotherapy.
• 8:46
  It is connected very much to Gestalt, to psychodrama.
• 8:50
  You know, the, it, there is quite a bit of research now around it, and the impact studies.
• 8:56
  But it also has this mystery around it, right?
• 9:00
  This, uh, ceremony like, um, quality and the knowing field, and… Mm. So it depends.
• 9:08
  But, but I would definitely, um, refer to generational trauma transference, and how we know that the pain that is not attended to in one generation will travel to the next generation.
• 9:22
  And, you know, the tests and the trials that they did, um, on flies and on animals, how it gets transferred, uh, epigenetics, and yeah.
• 9:33
  And can you share a little bit about that?
• 9:35
  I haven't heard about the test on flies.
• 9:36
  I've heard about the test on animals.
• 9:38
  Yeah.
• 9:38
  The, the, the test on flies is, uh, was, uh, the one where it was connected… It, it was with the jar, where the one generation of flies was, uh, was kind of prevented from leaving the jar, and then they had babies, and when the jar was opened, the babies never left the jar either, or the grandchildren of the flies.
• 9:59
  Oh.
• 9:59
  So there was this kind of all next generations took the jar as the whole world.
• 10:06
  There was not even an attempt to find a way out.
• 10:08
  They just perceived it as their reality.
• 10:11
  Wow.
• 10:12
  I hadn't heard of that one.
• 10:13
  I've heard of- Mm … a few different things, but not that one.
• 10:16
  Wow.
• 10:16
  Okay.
• 10:17
  Yeah.
• 10:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:18
  Yeah.
• 10:18
  It's, it's something about how we might identify- Mm-hmm with our own reality thinking that's, that's what it is.
• 10:26
  But actually, you know, it's something that we inherited, and where the leader's no lo- no longer there, we are not the, the carriers of the trauma.
• 10:35
  We didn't experience it ourselves, but it's still, uh, a reality for us even though we're not its original owners.
• 10:45
  Yeah.
• 10:45
  Mm.
• 10:46
  That's fascinating.
• 10:47
  So I know that you, you often share beautiful meditations, and you run a lot of, um… You, you lean more into the shamanic, um, side of constellations.
• 11:00
  Would you like to share a little bit about that?
• 11:01
  'Cause I know that I've, um, been receiving your emails for a very long time, and they're, they're beautiful the things that you share.
• 11:09
  Thank you.
• 11:11
  Um, well, after I finished my, uh, um, classical constellation training, I met, uh, Dan van Kampenhout, who is- Mm … the, the founder of the systemic ritual, which brings together constellations and shamanism.
• 11:26
  And I've done a lot of work with him.
• 11:29
  The original, uh, to be the facilitator, and then all other trainings that he offered in Europe.
• 11:36
  Um, and I've, uh, supported him, uh, on some of the workshops after that, and now supported the training in Berlin.
• 11:45
  So it's, uh, because I've done so much of it, it's very, it is very much part of my, uh, of my work the way the field communicates with me.
• 11:55
  Um, I believe that we are in a relationship with, um, with the knowing field, with this, with this, uh, field that surrounds us that allows constellations to work, that allows representative the information and the sensations and the feelings that are relevant for that family system.
• 12:14
  And my belief is that that's an intelligent being, and I am in a relationship with that being.
• 12:19
  So, um, yeah, so, so my, my lens is, uh, animistic towards that.
• 12:27
  So I see it as, as something where I am communicating.
• 12:31
  And the, um, one, one of the, uh, differences I guess with, uh, bringing shamanic work into it is really- emphasizing the resources and the support.
• 12:45
  So one of the things Dan often says is resourcing comes before interventions.
• 12:51
  Maybe not exact- not exactly his words, but that's sort of my take on it.
• 12:56
  That before we do any interventions within the constellation, we're making sure that the representatives and who they're representing are well-supported and resourced.
• 13:06
  So before, say, one of the, um, common movements in a constellation is giving back what doesn't belong to us, right?
• 13:13
  With, with, um, with love and respect, we return it to, to where it, it really belongs.
• 13:21
  And for me, it's important before we do that to resource those to whom it belongs so that they're able to receive it back.
• 13:30
  Yeah.
• 13:30
  Because they gave it away for a reason, right?
• 13:32
  Uh, there was not enough, um, not enough to hold it well, to process it well.
• 13:39
  So I would Add the support first, and then make a movement of giving it back.
• 13:46
  Beautiful.
• 13:47
  Yeah.
• 13:47
  And with, with the meditation, it just started to, it started to happening last year, I think.
• 13:53
  I've been doing it for about a year, where all this, uh, knowledge, systemic knowledge, ancestral knowledge, you know, the principles that I hold about family systems, my, my ongoing inquiry is around sort of preventive ways rather than intervention ways, you know?
• 14:16
  If, if a constellation is already intervention at the point where something doesn't work, is there a way to do something before it, it gets, you know, unbalanced?
• 14:27
  So al- al- almost like a self-care routine.
• 14:30
  And, uh, uh, these meditations for me are that, that, um, they, they are a way to attend to the ancestral relationship and connection before it needs a constellation, you know, before it needs fixing.
• 14:46
  So it's something where you invest and you spend time and you offer gifts and there is an exchange.
• 14:52
  So what started happening is, uh, we would just go into a meditative state and a process will arrive where I would guide, um, a meditation, and I don't know where it's taking us, but it would take us either to the ancestors of the land or our own ancient ancestors or towards the, um, movement of inclusion where, um, you know, we know from the constellation work where somebody's excluded, um, we want to re-include them.
• 15:23
  So we do that, um, in a meditative state, kind of working with the dream world, with imagination, with images, to the extent tending to our own inner reality of where we are with our ancestors.
• 15:39
  Almost like developing a habit of they're there and they're well, and they are there to support us.
• 15:47
  So like, uh, like, uh, training our mind to include them into our own perception of the world.
• 15:54
  Yeah.
• 15:56
  That's great, 'cause that's not something that has happened for many, many generations, right?
• 16:01
  Yeah.
• 16:02
  It's been- Yeah, well, de- depending where you are in the world, of course.
• 16:06
  Exactly.
• 16:06
  Yeah.
• 16:07
  And depending on culture.
• 16:07
  But yes, especially in, in, in the West, um, I think we are… I was just reflecting on this before our call, that, uh, we are probably the first, uh, generation, or maybe, uh, the second generation who is actively reaching out towards this healing movement.
• 16:28
  I, I don't think before us, or maybe before the '60s, but on a more global scale before us, um, there was enough time and resources and kind of, um, awareness to be able to look backwards and to, to look at how much trauma, how much pain.
• 16:49
  I think all the knowledge that we now have from, from the psychology field of how pain is being transferred and what it does and the effect of trauma on the body and on our wellbeing, that we hold so much information and we can apply it backwards towards all the tragedy that was happening in the last several- Yeah centuries and beyond, that we're probably the first people who are actively seeking to somehow relieve that, that pain f- of the past, for ourselves and for the future.
• 17:23
  Mm. And I think that in some, you know, to, to a degree, some of that is supported, like, through the fact that it's so much easier for us to all connect through the, you know, through the internet and, um, which means that we can spread our knowledge more and, um, you know, prior to the- And then we… Yeah … as I say, prior to the'60s, they had the, they had the television, they had the radio.
• 17:48
  Um, or the radio and then the television and, and yet that was all kind of, um, controlled, wasn't it?
• 17:55
  You know, like, what was in the air.
• 17:56
  And so it's… There's so much more freedom in this space.
• 18:01
  And there is so much more pain.
• 18:02
  Yeah.
• 18:02
  You know, 'cause now we have, we've received this, this, uh, um… W- we're plugged in into the global pain- Mm … into the whole world.
• 18:11
  Um, which, you know, I believe our hearts are not designed for, and, and that's why there is such a massive movement, uh, to seek healing- Mm … because it gets unbearable very, very quickly.
• 18:26
  So true.
• 18:27
  So what, what are some things that you do that you, or you offer to people to do, um, to, like, protect their hearts?
• 18:34
  I'm thinking you've just did… That's fu- so funny, because I wanted to sh- playing with my background today, and I was like, "Oh, should I do this one?" And then I was like, "Put the hearts in.
• 18:43
  Oh, okay.
• 18:44
  There you go." Yeah.
• 18:45
  Mm. Uh, for, for me, the, recently, this, uh, theme of a heart comes up everywhere.
• 18:52
  I, I don't know, I don't know why.
• 18:55
  I think it, the, the path is taking me somewhere.
• 18:58
  But, uh, it's, it's literally everywhere I look there is something around the way of the heart.
• 19:04
  In my own, what, spiritual practice, in the meditations, in the journeys, uh, in the shamanic journeys, it has been coming up a lot as the heart intelligence, heart wisdom, the love, the softening.
• 19:22
  Um, so in my own practice, I, I meditate and I journey.
• 19:27
  That's, that's, uh, the two things.
• 19:29
  And very much being in nature and because I am relational, I would, uh, go on, like, dates with, uh, with the sea or with a tree or with, with the earth.
• 19:42
  You know, I go and spend intentional time- Mm … in conversation and kind of, uh, listening and offering, just being together or, uh, you know, asking for guidance or for, you know, to be held when it's a bit difficult.
• 20:00
  Um- Mm … bringing some food or water or, uh, sometimes if I don't have anything I would leave a coin if, if I, if I have one.
• 20:12
  And I think being in nature really drops me into the heart.
• 20:17
  Uh, it really helps to let go of the stress that is sort of up here in the head and to stay in the body and, and grounded.
• 20:26
  I love that.
• 20:28
  And you've just moved near the ocean too, haven't you, if I remember correctly.
• 20:33
  That's wow.
• 20:33
  Yeah.
• 20:34
  Technically it's not an ocean, but it looks like one.
• 20:37
  Oh, right.
• 20:37
  'Cause I'm on the, on the, on the English Channel, you know, the La Manche, the bit of sea that separates, uh, uh, UK from France, like that.
• 20:47
  I'm on the south coast, so it's technically not an ocean, but- Okay it's connected to the ocean.
• 20:54
  Yeah.
• 20:55
  Yeah, yeah.
• 20:56
  Salt water, it's technically.
• 20:58
  Yeah.
• 21:00
  Yeah.
• 21:00
  Uh-huh.
• 21:00
  Still, still call it big water.
• 21:02
  Yeah.
• 21:02
  It's still bigger.
• 21:03
  Yeah.
• 21:04
  Yeah.
• 21:05
  Oh, that's lovely.
• 21:06
  It'd be a great practice for people, too.
• 21:09
  What if people are living in the city?
• 21:10
  How would you recommend that they do something?
• 21:13
  Do something like what?
• 21:15
  Like what you were just sharing.
• 21:17
  You know, something for their heart if they wanted to get out into nature and… or into… You know, like, s- I don't have that problem here 'cause I live in a very open n- natural place, but some- Mm… pe- people in the bigger Well, I, I was in London for 20 years, and, uh- Mm that was my practice in London as well.
• 21:40
  I had a tree next to my… That really supported me during COVID, you know, when we went into lockdown, and, uh, we could only sort of, uh, in, in the UK, we could only move around sort of, you know, walkable distance around where we lived for an hour a day.
• 21:59
  Uh, so I would just go to that oak and sit with that oak, and we would have conversations, and I would really try to feel in and merge with the oak and kind of feel the, the, the connection of the oak that, uh, that the oak had through its roots, you know, going in and then spreading into the rest of the world- Mm and all the trees being connected, and the root system sort of spreading out e- all over the island.
• 22:28
  So I was imagining that I would go into the roots and go wherever and, uh, meet all these different trees, and, uh, so I had a lot of fun with that oak.
• 22:39
  I love that.
• 22:40
  That's so cool.
• 22:41
  That's so cool.
• 22:42
  Do… So in the Ukraine and Russia, are oaks something that grow there?
• 22:50
  They are.
• 22:50
  Yeah.
• 22:50
  Oh, yeah.
• 22:51
  Yeah.
• 22:52
  Yeah.
• 22:52
  They, they are p- pretty sort of north- Northern European trees.
• 22:56
  ' Cause we have some here, but We- it's not a native tree for us.
• 23:00
  Oh.
• 23:00
  Yeah.
• 23:01
  Uh-huh.
• 23:01
  Okay.
• 23:01
  Well, any tree will do.
• 23:03
  It doesn't have to be an oak.
• 23:05
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:06
  Oh, we've got some pretty majestic trees down here.
• 23:09
  But, uh, yeah, I still, you know, I nod to my English and my, uh, Northern ancestors.
• 23:15
  Mm. Yeah.
• 23:17
  I do like the oak.
• 23:19
  Let me ask you, how do you attend to the heart?
• 23:21
  What do you do and what do you recommend to people?
• 23:24
  Well, for me, one of the biggest things is cacao.
• 23:28
  I have a cacao every day, and that really helps me to deepen and connect into my heart in a deeper way.
• 23:35
  Um, on the physical, the mental, and the emotional levels, 'cause it has so many good, good things in it.
• 23:43
  But it also allows me to pause, you know?
• 23:45
  'Cause it gets so busy and just I take time when I have my cacao to stop and, and, um … So that's probably the biggest way.
• 23:52
  And then I also do a l- a meditation where I take people through, and I've been practicing it more and more in my own self, not just when I'm sharing it with others, 'cause it's one of the things that I do when I work with people one on one and I, I invite them into the front of their heart- Mm-hmm and then the back of their heart, and then, you know, we go the left and the right and through the center.
• 24:12
  And so just practicing that space, like feeling into the front of your heart.
• 24:17
  And, and I've had people say, "I've never, never thought that there was different parts to my heart." Mm. Yeah.
• 24:24
  Love that.
• 24:25
  Yes.
• 24:25
  Yeah.
• 24:26
  That reminds me of, of a meditation when, when, uh, I offer to, uh, especially when there are strong feelings- Mm … uh, to imagine opening the windows on both sides and create like a bit of a draft through the heart so that the feelings can go through and come out on the other side and the other way around.
• 24:48
  Mm. This, this movement like a breeze through for the- Yeah … feelings to move rather than get, uh, stuck.
• 24:55
  Yeah.
• 24:55
  So you know when the heart feels heavy and something sits there, and you open, imagine opening and then let them- Oh … yeah.
• 25:02
  I love that.
• 25:02
  That's great.
• 25:04
  Yeah.
• 25:05
  Yeah.
• 25:06
  What has family constellations taught you about yourself and life maybe?
• 25:10
  Yeah.
• 25:11
  I think for myself, one, one, one of the key things it did for me was reconnect me to the body.
• 25:18
  Because I came from a very heady background, right?
• 25:21
  A c- academic and, and legal and all that stuff.
• 25:25
  When I started representing and started doing the work and did a lot of it, 'cause I was in love, right?
• 25:32
  So I would be in it, uh, several times a week.
• 25:35
  Um, it really taught me to notice what happens in the body and to start trusting it.
• 25:43
  Because there was so much confirmation from the issue holders around the, um, relevance of the, uh, feelings or sensations towards the, the, you know, the piece of work that we were doing.
• 25:58
  It… So that you can't but begin to trust that your body has intelligence that you don't understand, but that is there.
• 26:07
  So with time, that became almost like a tool in itself.
• 26:13
  So when I am, say, struggling with decision-making, I would use my body as a guidance, as a yes or no when my mind can't- Like a pendulum.
• 26:21
  Yeah, yeah.
• 26:22
  Like, like that.
• 26:22
  Or like, you know, uh, representing.
• 26:25
  I would, uh, set up blind choices, like on pieces of paper.
• 26:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 26:31
  Uh, mix them so that I don't know which one, and just stand in each to see what feels better, and then see which one is that.
• 26:39
  And then go, "Oh, this is my choice." This is, this is the one that the body says yes to.
• 26:44
  Or like a pen- yeah, yeah, like a kinesiology when, like muscle testing when you go into a yes or a no.
• 26:51
  Yeah.
• 26:51
  Um, yeah, so I think w- personally, this is one of the key moments that really changed the way I exist in the world, that I am much more In the body now.
• 27:03
  And with shamanism, of course, that's also, um, very useful, and there is much more around energy and picking up energy.
• 27:10
  And I think becoming a facilitator now when, when I'm setting up the constellation, this is the main instrument that tunes into the energy and what's happening in the room and when it needs to stop or… So there is much less, um, analysis and much more tuning in and following the flow of the energy.
• 27:34
  And what was the other part?
• 27:35
  One was personal and the other one- Um, what has it taught you about life?
• 27:39
  Life.
• 27:40
  Ooh, well, the whole, the whole philosophy of, uh, you know, the, the, um, the orders, the… They're almost imprinted now in terms of assessing the situation and looking for the patterns.
• 27:54
  And the… I think one of the big ones for me is, uh, exclusion, is looking for who is excluded, who is not here, who is forgotten, who is pulling on the, you know, on the consciousness of the whole to be seen, uh, creating all this little distortions in the field.
• 28:17
  And, um, probably the exchange.
• 28:21
  Like, I'm mi- I'm much more attuned to where it's the exchange is not right, where it's give and take is not really respected or, um, in, in that way.
• 28:33
  And also that- A- a- can I just ask that ques- a question to that… Sorry, before you go onto that one.
• 28:39
  That's okay.
• 28:39
  Was that different to how you were taught in your family system, or did it just enhance that?
• 28:46
  You know, the exchange of give and take.
• 28:49
  Yeah.
• 28:49
  That's, that's a good question.
• 28:51
  Um, I think it definitely created an awareness of it.
• 28:56
  I probably was not thinking about it before that at all.
• 29:01
  Yeah.
• 29:01
  You know, I would just… I th- I think for, for, for, for many of us, giving is much easier Mm-hmm.
• 29:11
  W- one, one of the things that was very difficult for me to process in my training in constellations, specifically in this, um, exchange, uh, concept, was, you know, this, this requirement to reciprocate even when it's in a negative way.
• 29:30
  So when somebody does something good for you, you pay back with good but a little bit more, so you're growing the positive in the exchange.
• 29:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 29:39
  Right?
• 29:40
  Um, that's easy.
• 29:42
  We can all do that.
• 29:43
  Uh, you know, giving is easy.
• 29:46
  Giving more, of course, you know, like, it's, it's… it feels generous and beautiful and, um, and right.
• 29:55
  But then the way we were taught that the other way is also, um, right, when somebody hurts you, you need to hurt back but a little bit less.
• 30:06
  So just ignoring or letting it go or, let's say forgiving, brings in imbalance and leaves the debt for the one who hurt you.
• 30:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:18
  So I think the phrase that they used, uh, when I was training was something like,"Living with a saint is impossible." Mm-hmm.
• 30:26
  When you are the one who constantly let go, let- lets go and says, "That's okay. That's okay, that's okay," you're kind of building up this, uh, imbalance of giving, giving, giving, and not taking, or the other way around.
• 30:41
  That is a really- So for me, that was- Yeah, difficult… that was difficult, yes.
• 30:45
  Because, uh, of course, I was, uh, trained as forgiveness, forgiveness, forgiveness, unselfishness, unselfishness, you know?
• 30:56
  So, so that somehow was so counterintuitive.
• 30:59
  But actually in my practice when I work with people- It brings relief when- Mm … there is at least in some way some reciprocation.
• 31:11
  It doesn't have to be hurting somebody, but it needs to be somehow tended to, and some counter movement needs to happen rather than nothing.
• 31:23
  Can you give us an example of that so that people can understand that?
• 31:27
  It's, it's, it's difficult to, to just tap into it quickly.
• 31:31
  Mm. I'm trying to think of something that would be mine, uh, so that I can talk about it freely because of the, and, um, you know, because of respecting confidentiality of what's happening in, in sessions.
• 31:42
  Absolutely.
• 31:43
  Absolutely.
• 31:43
  What if, what if… Let's, let's make up, let's make up a, um, hypo- a story, and see if we can find something that might be something that could happen.
• 31:53
  So say, uh, a brother stole the family inheritance.
• 31:58
  Would that be too big a thing to put into the field, like, as in for this conversation?
• 32:03
  Or is that the type of thing that- I think it's, it's a slightly… It's, it's slightly, uh… Yeah, it's, it's a bit too hypothetical in terms of we'll, we'll need to narrow it down with whom is the- Mm … relationship.
• 32:16
  You know?
• 32:16
  Who… The, the, the most common relationship where it shows up, I believe, is the, um, say, like, a, um, partnership or a, um, a marriage of two pe- Okay two people being together, you know?
• 32:32
  And there's little, um, situations where… or big situations, you know, like, uh, infidelity or fighting or, you know, if one, if one partner is eager to fight quite a lot and the other is constantly on the fence and trying to ignore that, that relationship will start going out of balance.
• 32:55
  Yeah.
• 32:55
  Yeah You know, if, if one, if one is hurting somehow, in, in any way, small or big, the other one, if they are always letting it go and, and kind of finding excuses for it, or finding justifications or, you know, or, um, they're just in a bad mood, they had a bad day or, uh, something like that, there is no relationship happening.
• 33:21
  Their, their relationship is- A- and you can s- it could get quite explosive, couldn't it?
• 33:25
  Like, it would just get so much,'cause it's so out of balance.
• 33:29
  Exactly.
• 33:29
  Yeah.
• 33:30
  Exactly.
• 33:31
  And it will, and it will grow, and at some point this partner who is not receiving anything back will potentially do something even bigger to get the, to get the- Mm-hmm the response.
• 33:43
  So it's q- it's quite difficult to be hypothetical about it.
• 33:46
  Yeah, yeah.
• 33:47
  No, you just got me thinking about my grandparents actually, because I, when I was nine I, um, I kind of lived with them.
• 33:55
  I, I would go home at night, but I spent days and days with them for about a year because I'd been unwell, and they would look after me during school time.
• 34:04
  But my grandpa… And I loved sitting next to my grandfather, and he would always say things and dig at Nana, and then he'd chuckle at me.
• 34:12
  And I, and I, one day I asked him,"Why do you do that?" He goes, " 'Cause then she bites back and we have a conversation." Otherwise, I think Nana was just busy doing her thing.
• 34:23
  Yeah.
• 34:23
  And so he, that was his way of getting a conversation out of her.
• 34:27
  Yeah.
• 34:27
  Staying in the relationship, yes.
• 34:28
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 34:30
  Yes.
• 34:30
  The, the way we were taught was that, uh, if, um, for as long as there is this exchange, either into the kind of red zone or the green zone, the relationship is active.
• 34:43
  The moment you are neutral, no exchange happening, that's when there is no relationship.
• 34:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:50
  Yeah.
• 34:50
  The exchange is what holds the relationship together.
• 34:56
  Yeah.
• 34:57
  It's fascinating, isn't it?
• 34:58
  The, the, the ebbs and flows of give and take, give and receive, and- Yeah.
• 35:04
  Yeah.
• 35:05
  I must say this, uh, for me, this is much more difficult to notice when I'm in it myself.
• 35:14
  Mm. Yeah.
• 35:14
  You know, when I'm in this, uh, difficult relationship myself, it's always so much more helpful to go to somebody so that they can mirror it back to me and go, "Oh, but are you noticing what you're doing?" And then I'm like, "Oh, no, I'm not." When it's about my own relationship- Mm … and where I am, for example, the one who is not reciprocating or who doesn't get the response and I start getting, I don't notice it when I'm in it.
• 35:43
  Mm.
• 35:44
  But I think it's helpful to not try and be self-diagnostic about it and to actually, uh, have somebody.
• 35:53
  Yeah.
• 35:53
  Yeah, yeah.
• 35:54
  Fascinating.
• 35:55
  There's so many, um, facets to that I think- Yeah … with the different dynamics of different relationships and- Yeah.
• 36:01
  And, and I, and I think it's also, like, like, you know with, with constellations, because we work with phenomenology, it's also so useful to actually represent it.
• 36:12
  That's why we do it because- Mm … we can, you know, uh, we can use theory, we can create hypothesis about it, but actually until we set it up and look at the specific dynamic and the specific pattern, um, it m- might present as something completely different.
• 36:32
  Exactly.
• 36:33
  Something, something that we assumed while we talked about it might be something completely else when we externalize it and, and, and have it re- Mm.
• 36:44
  Yes, yes, absolutely.
• 36:45
  I see that often y- when you're having conversations with clients and in, in their, you know, in their own blindness, like if the client's blindness, um, they're seeing it in this light rather than in the whole, so the field.
• 37:01
  Yeah, having it in the field is great for that awareness and their felt sense and, uh, allowing for the shifts to happen or- Or the insights to pop in.
• 37:12
  Yeah.
• 37:13
  Beautiful.
• 37:14
  Your family back in… They are all back in the homeland?
• 37:18
  Yeah, they're in Ukraine.
• 37:19
  Have they experienced family constellations?
• 37:22
  Um, I think my sister did some.
• 37:25
  Does she know… So they know what you do?
• 37:27
  Oh, yes.
• 37:28
  Yes.
• 37:28
  They, they- Yeah … uh, they know.
• 37:30
  They know.
• 37:30
  But my parents, my parents didn't experience it, but they know what I'm doing.
• 37:35
  We're- Yeah… we're very much, uh, kind of that, go, the, the, the weirder we get.
• 37:44
  So all of us go deeper and deeper into the realms of, uh, you know, dream work or meditation- Oh, wow… or transpersonal or… My Uh, my mom is very deep into dream work, and she has these prophetic dreams.
• 38:03
  Um, and my dad is very much into meditation and yoga and silence and working on feelings, emotions, and manifesting and things like that.
• 38:15
  Oh, beautiful.
• 38:16
  So being a lawyer- Yeah … must have been a little bit left of center.
• 38:19
  They are all lawyers.
• 38:20
  Oh, they're all lawyers as well?
• 38:22
  Wow.
• 38:24
  Okay.
• 38:24
  Except for my sister.
• 38:25
  Except for my sister, both of my parents, uh, were lawyers.
• 38:28
  My h- my dad had a whole career in, in law.
• 38:32
  Now that he's retired, he was very… he's very deep in esoterics and, uh, things like that.
• 38:39
  Wow.
• 38:39
  That's great.
• 38:40
  Yeah.
• 38:40
  And I think that's partly, uh, what this work allowed for.
• 38:45
  Yeah.
• 38:46
  I think, I think the, the, the more I did this work, the more permission there was in the, in the family field To tap into the talent- Mm gifts and this kind of ancient wisdom that, that exists.
• 39:03
  To start with, I think there was a bit of resistance, 'cause everyone was a lawyer, and, uh, for me to start moving into this, uh, into this area of… I don't even know how to call this area.
• 39:15
  Let's say personal development.
• 39:18
  And for my parents to start with, it was very strange.
• 39:21
  But then the more, the more I did it, the more I explained to them the connections between what happened in one generation and how it impacts us and how it will impact, uh, the future, the more they were sort of, uh, getting open to it.
• 39:39
  And then we got, uh, grandmothers on board, and then, um, you know, the, the wider family is into it, uh, indirectly.
• 39:47
  But anything that I share with my mom, she shares with the whole family back at home.
• 39:53
  So she'll send it on the grapevine to kind of everyone.
• 39:57
  So I now need to be quite mindful around explaining things so that I, I… it's, it's, it's, it's understandable to somebody who has no idea what I'm talking about.
• 40:08
  Exactly, yeah.
• 40:10
  That is fantastic.
• 40:10
  And when you were talking about the, uh, the ancestors and stuff, and I, I can imagine, I have a vivid imagination, very shamanic, very… and like going back obviously.
• 40:22
  Well, factually, you know how it often happens in, in constellations, there are no facts available- Mm … but the energy field is very telling of something, right?
• 40:33
  So you would- Yeah … hypothesize about it.
• 40:36
  So am I factually, I, I don't know.
• 40:40
  Um, and because of, because of how, you know, because of the realities of those times and those lands, that would be information that wouldn't be allowed to be… and that was the reality for the majority of population.
• 40:55
  Um, but from doing this work and from doing shamanic work and from, uh, working with, um, seers from a variety of traditions, um, my sense is that I have- quite a lot of distant, um, very wise ancestors who were- Mm into all sorts of stuff.
• 41:21
  Yeah.
• 41:22
  Yeah.
• 41:23
  And, uh, whether that was, uh, a fact or not, I don't know, but, uh, I have a personal connection with them, and they're regularly showing up, and, uh, and I'm not limiting it to the recent generations, right?
• 41:39
  So they, they… I think some of the guides, ancestral guides who come through, they come through maybe, um, several hundreds of years back or maybe even- Mm a couple of thousand years back.
• 41:53
  Yeah.
• 41:53
  Um, all identifying as ancestors, which of, of course I have no way to verify, but I work with them as they present themselves.
• 42:05
  If they say they identify as ancestors, I take it.
• 42:09
  Um- Yeah… I have enough trust in this trust what, what comes through.
• 42:17
  And there are millions, right?
• 42:19
  There are millions of them behind us, billions of ancestors.
• 42:23
  So the likelihood that you're gonna have at least one, but I think there have been way more than one.
• 42:30
  Yeah.
• 42:30
  But, but when we're open to that, that's… Yeah.
• 42:34
  Absolutely.
• 42:35
  And also in my work, uh, I go beyond biological lineage, right?
• 42:41
  Because we also have, say, if, if the cosmology allows for other lifetimes, they would be full of ancestors as well.
• 42:50
  And then it gets slightly more complicated when we imagine that we ourselves were incarnated as our ancestors at some point.
• 42:58
  So we are all within one lineage, but, uh, multiple lifetimes.
• 43:03
  Yeah.
• 43:03
  So, so there are definitely, definitely wise ancestors and, uh, uh, witchy ancestors and shamanic ancestors and, uh, you know, um, for everyone.
• 43:15
  What a gift you are giving to your family by, uh, having opened- Mm … that pathway for them to be remembered.
• 43:21
  Absolutely.
• 43:22
  And this is, this is, uh, um, I think one of the, one of the main missions of what I do is do that for the lineages.
• 43:33
  You know, I know in, especially in the constellation work, also in systemic ritual, we work with the issue that is current, right?
• 43:41
  Something that we want to change now.
• 43:44
  And that desire and intention takes us to somewhere in the past where there is an entanglement that is going to impact the resolution of this issue.
• 43:55
  But part of my, let's call it, mission or vision for this work is the actual attending to, um, to the lineages, to the pain within the lineages, to the, to the soul of the lineage that holds everything that happened for thousands of years, and how much of that is still sitting there unseen, unacknowledged, unprocessed, unforgiven, you know, forgotten.
• 44:25
  Um, and the more of this work that we do for ourselves, 'cause it makes sense to do it for ourselves, the more we release the energies in the past.
• 44:37
  The more we release the energies in the past, the more this… I call it the human soil layer- Mm … around the planet.
• 44:45
  You know, this, uh, multiple thousands of years of people dying and being buried in the earth, this kind of layer of the soil around the planet that is made of humans, that gets nurtured.
• 44:59
  You know, that- Yeah … gets looked after.
• 45:01
  Like, like when you prepare the soil for the planting of the new year, you know, it needs to rest, it needs to be aired, it needs to be de-weeded or however you call that.
• 45:13
  You know, there is attention given.
• 45:15
  Yeah.
• 45:15
  So what we're doing by doing this work, we are attending to this human soil around the planet, which allows for the next planting to be more, uh, successful, to be- Mm-hmm you know, for everyone who comes after to come into the soil that is beautifully nurtured rather than suppressed and forgotten.
• 45:40
  Yes.
• 45:40
  So that's, that's, that's what I mean about the scale of the work.
• 45:44
  We do it one person at a time, one issue at a time.
• 45:48
  But actually, because of the ripple effect, and because of how many ancestors we get to work with through doing this work, we attend to the beautiful planet and to- That's right.
• 46:00
  You're doing something here, but it's rippling back to this one over there and this one over here and yeah, it's… And then that's- Yeah … trickling out to the, all the other descendants too that's unraveling the threads there.
• 46:14
  Mm. Mm.
• 46:15
  Mm.
• 46:16
  Yeah.
• 46:17
  I really liked, uh… I did recently, uh, in, in the summer, I went to Georgia, to Tbilisi to attend a workshop by Daniel Foor.
• 46:26
  I don't know if you've heard of him.
• 46:27
  He's doing… Dr. Daniel Foor, he created this, uh, framework that he calls ancestral medicine, and this process of ancestral healing And I'm not going into details, but there was one part of it in the end that I really liked and I haven't met in other places.
• 46:49
  After the healing was done There was a request to the healed ancestors to, to have all their current still existing possessions on the planet reflect their healed energy.
• 47:05
  Oh.
• 47:06
  So all their remains that are still in the earth, all their human possessions, like if they had any furniture left or if they had letters left- Mm … you know, whatever is still existing on the planet that used to be theirs, to reflect the healed energy that they now have.
• 47:25
  I love that.
• 47:25
  After they've experienced all the healing, to, to fill up their possessions with that energy.
• 47:32
  I really loved it.
• 47:34
  Ooh.
• 47:34
  I was like, imagine if all the bones in the earth hold this frequency of healing, of… Then that will ripple down.
• 47:42
  That would just shift the vibration of Earth, wouldn't it?
• 47:44
  Wow.
• 47:46
  Exactly.
• 47:46
  Yeah.
• 47:47
  That, that, uh, that concept really stayed with me, and I thought what a beautiful movement.
• 47:53
  That's something that I, I… Th- that's not something I have, but it's a random, random thought there.
• 47:59
  But something that I have that, say, belonged to my great-grandparents, you know?
• 48:03
  Yeah.
• 48:03
  And it suddenly is going to start, you know, uh, giving out this healed frequency.
• 48:09
  Mm.
• 48:10
  So all the little things that I have from my family in the house are going to be that.
• 48:17
  Yeah.
• 48:17
  So my whole environment will start resonating on a different, uh, on a different frequency.
• 48:23
  I love that.
• 48:24
  Absolutely love that.
• 48:25
  I've got a picture.
• 48:27
  I've got some pictures even of them, um, that were theirs, you know?
• 48:31
  So yeah, I love that.
• 48:34
  It's beautiful.
• 48:35
  Thank you for that and, um, sharing and the beautiful nuggets of wisdom and, yeah.
• 48:41
  We, we, we, uh, covered a lot- Mm-hmm … in our wee conversation.
• 48:45
  It was beautiful.
• 48:47
  Thank you so much.
• 48:48
  Um, thanks for coming and giving us your time and sharing your wisdom.
• 48:53
  If people wanna get a hold of you, 'cause I know you do, uh, you do beautiful offerings online as well- Mm-hmm … how would someone get in touch with you?
• 49:02
  The easiest is through my website.
• 49:04
  It's, uh, S, asconstellations.co.uk.
• 49:07
  Okay.
• 49:08
  AS for me, Ale- uh, Alexandra Shimina, ASconstellations.co.uk.
• 49:14
  There is an email there and, uh, all the offerings are there as well.
• 49:19
  Fantastic.
• 49:19
  We'll add that into the link as well, but it's always good to hear it and have it spoken into the field.
• 49:24
  So thank you- Okay … once again.
• 49:27
  Um, yeah.
• 49:30
  And thank you for this opportunity to talk about this work.
• 49:33
  I love doing it and talking about it, and I can talk a lot.
• 49:38
  That's great.
• 49:39
  Love talking with ya.
• 49:40
  Love sharing.
• 49:41
  Yeah.
• 49:41
  And, uh, and I'm really pleased- And thank you for the, uh, for the hearts today Yeah That's, that's a lovely background Pleasure.
• 49:51
  Thank you for listening.
• 49:52
  Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 49:57
  You'll find me at tracey.cartwright.
• 50:00
  That's Tracey with no E .cartwright.
• 50:03
  And, or head over to my website traceycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
• 50:13
  So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it