Latest / Kaleidoscope - Perspectives Beyond The Surface / Same Magic, Different Work

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Same Magic, Different Work · Kaleidoscope - Perspectives Beyond The Surface

• 0:03
  Good evening, listeners, one and all. Welcome
• 0:08
  to Kaleidoscope. My name is Ruby Ray Liu and
• 0:11
  today I am joined by Kim Litko, South African
• 0:17
  award -winning LGBTQIA plus activist. Chair of
• 0:21
  the Hate Crimes Working Group and founder of
• 0:25
  Same Love Toti, a non -profit organization advocating
• 0:28
  for LGBTQIA plus rights in South Africa. And
• 0:34
  human rights international speaker. I'm super
• 0:37
  honored to have you here, Kim. I'm also joined
• 0:40
  by my co -host, Luigi. Hello. Hello again. We're
• 0:48
  back. We're back. My name is Ruby Ray Liu. I
• 0:51
  am what happens when you are a teacher playing
• 0:56
  Shadowrun on Friday evenings and you discover
• 0:59
  a new hobby for painting tiny figurines. Which
• 1:02
  is something I've watched my friends do and find
• 1:05
  myself being sucked into. Good evening. Ruby,
• 1:09
  is Shadowrun a video game? Shadowrun is a tabletop
• 1:13
  role -playing game. Okay. Okay. Now it makes
• 1:17
  sense. I don't have enough hobbies. I should
• 1:19
  get an interesting hobby like that. Don't worry,
• 1:22
  I'll keep you busy. Bring your figure in next
• 1:26
  time. Yeah, well, I think spacing would be great,
• 1:31
  man. Yeah, maybe not so small though. My glasses
• 1:35
  wouldn't be able to cope, you know? You can get
• 1:39
  the big band around your head with like the magnifying
• 1:42
  glass that you pull over. Yeah, yeah, and the
• 1:46
  flashlight. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It makes you
• 1:50
  look more... What's the word? More knowledgeable
• 1:54
  about your subject. Your weird hobby of painting
• 1:56
  figurines. Like an expertise. Okay. Could be.
• 2:03
  Luigi, do you have a way for us to... Do you
• 2:05
  have an introduction for us today? Yes, my name
• 2:09
  is Luigi and the rule of thumb for this episode
• 2:13
  is there is no rule of thumb. And neither is
• 2:17
  there for painting tiny little figurines. Do
• 2:19
  it however you want. Okay, cool. Exactly, this
• 2:22
  one was done. Good morning, and sorry, go ahead
• 2:24
  Ray. Show us your figurine. I was just on the
• 2:29
  topic of no rules. This was painted with nail
• 2:33
  polish, not the proper paint at all. There you
• 2:37
  go. At least it's gonna last longer than everybody
• 2:41
  else's. I think so. Yeah. And it has a certain
• 2:47
  gloss about it too, that regular pain won't have.
• 2:51
  Yeah. Maybe I started a new trend. There you
• 2:55
  go. Yeah. Yeah, so my name's Kim and I'm a mother
• 3:04
  of two very grown boys. So they're men and they've
• 3:09
  married with two kids, now three. So yeah, I
• 3:13
  got three grandsons and very happy. Just had
• 3:18
  my, well, I didn't have it, thank God, but my
• 3:22
  daughter -in -law just had the third grandson.
• 3:26
  So we've had like first Christmases three years
• 3:31
  in a row. So my painting will be on a Christmas
• 3:35
  bauble, you know. First Christmas. So that's
• 3:42
  going to be my painting exercise for the year,
• 3:46
  I think. That's beautiful. I love that. Thank
• 3:49
  you for sharing. I know that you're already very
• 3:56
  busy. I've been trying to get a hold of you to
• 3:59
  speak to you for so long. And to now know that
• 4:02
  you're also a grandmother of three just blows
• 4:06
  my mind. You are a superwoman. Yeah, I think
• 4:10
  all mothers are though, you know, at least to
• 4:13
  their kids. For sure. So on Kaleidoscope, we
• 4:17
  like to start off just to warm things up a little
• 4:21
  bit with... with a quick question for the other
• 4:26
  two participants in the podcast to answer. I
• 4:29
  would like to open the floor to see if either
• 4:32
  of you have a question you would like to start
• 4:34
  with, and then we'll go kind of on the screen,
• 4:38
  just let's say counterclockwise today. Counterclockwise?
• 4:41
  What? Who does that put first? All of our screens
• 4:44
  have a different number. Right now the floor
• 4:47
  is open. Whoever wants to go first. Wait! Kim,
• 4:51
  was that mug just a Santa Claus mug? No, no.
• 4:56
  The rest of my house will be though, very soon.
• 4:59
  We're going to start, especially for the kiddies,
• 5:02
  we're going to start decorating our house until
• 5:05
  it looks like a shopping mall has exploded. My
• 5:12
  mother comes in and she goes, it's too much,
• 5:15
  it's too much. I'm like, well, I don't think
• 5:17
  so. Can't have too much glitter, too much Santa,
• 5:21
  too much presents. But yeah, my family have different
• 5:25
  views. Like my son, he says to me, mom, you can't
• 5:28
  now buy the kids like loads and loads of presents.
• 5:33
  And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, first plan is dashed.
• 5:37
  So. I said to him, okay, no problem. I went out
• 5:40
  and I bought a keyboard and brought it back,
• 5:43
  give it to the kid. And I said, okay, this is
• 5:47
  not a Christmas present. I'm buying him an everyday
• 5:50
  present. So that way I can still buy my presents
• 5:54
  for the kids. You're lucky to have you. That's
• 5:56
  good. Man, I miss, I miss insane like holiday
• 6:03
  Christmasy decoration, whatever. I'll tell you
• 6:08
  both. I, for the first time ever, I've been in
• 6:10
  China for 12 years. And this is, I just yesterday,
• 6:14
  and this is why today I'm a little tired. I was
• 6:17
  up late. I put up a tree for the first time ever
• 6:20
  and decorated it. Yes, thank you. Took a lot
• 6:24
  of courage. You'll see it Ruby next time you
• 6:28
  come over. I got a full blown tree, but now I'm
• 6:30
  a little worried I've opened. Some kind of box
• 6:33
  because I want to get more decorations. I don't
• 6:35
  know. I don't know if it's a good idea I don't
• 6:37
  want my apartment. I would love my apartment
• 6:39
  full of decorations, but also at the same time.
• 6:43
  I Don't know. Maybe it's too much. I need to
• 6:45
  finesse it. Where? Not for me. I mean I Love
• 6:52
  decorations. I hate cleaning them up and my contribution
• 6:56
  to Christmas this year will be Secret Santa gifts
• 7:00
  and teaching my kids the Charleston Swing. Not
• 7:04
  by my kids, I mean my students. We're doing students.
• 7:09
  Jingle Bell Rock, but with the Charleston Swing
• 7:12
  song. Dance. Very nice. I hope you're going to
• 7:15
  post a video of this. Well, because of like child
• 7:21
  protection laws, I can share it individually.
• 7:24
  Yeah, but not online. Well, it sounds very good.
• 7:29
  It sounds lots of fun. That's nice. Yeah, if
• 7:33
  it's good enough, it will go through on the schools
• 7:35
  like public one and then from there I will be
• 7:38
  able to share it. Yeah, beautiful. Well, that's
• 7:42
  lovely. No decorating though, Ruby? No decorations.
• 7:45
  No decorating. No. All right. Not for me. Fair.
• 7:53
  Anyway. Was that your quick fire question? Mine?
• 7:58
  Yeah. Well, I guess it could be. No, actually,
• 8:00
  I saw the mug, and then I just thought Santa
• 8:02
  and Christmas. But now I'm curious, Kim, are
• 8:03
  you a purveyor of mugs like I am? I have many
• 8:06
  novelty mugs. Yes. I love mugs. That's my other
• 8:11
  addiction. Oh, there you go. Kindred's here.
• 8:14
  I've now been banned. My family have told me,
• 8:17
  that's it, Ma, no more coffee mugs. Really? Do
• 8:21
  you have a favorite? This is my favorite. I have
• 8:25
  it all the time. Oh, nice. I'm going with this
• 8:29
  gimmick, but yeah, it is my favorite. Yeah. No,
• 8:35
  I don't. I don't. I just buy sort of, I guess
• 8:42
  it's gimmicky. So maybe Ray, you can look down
• 8:46
  on me. Not at all. Look what I have. That's gimmicky.
• 8:51
  That's the most gimmicky thing anybody can buy.
• 8:54
  Their own name. I can't see it. Yeah. Wait, what?
• 8:59
  Yeah. Yeah, probably. I have a decoration in
• 9:03
  my house that is my own name. That's, it doesn't
• 9:06
  get more gimmicky than that. Okay. Okay. No,
• 9:10
  no. My, my family get mugs. Like if it's Easter,
• 9:14
  they get... Easter mugs. If it's Christmas, they'll
• 9:17
  get Christmas. And of course, mom and dad have
• 9:20
  to get like the best mom or best dad. That's
• 9:23
  great. Yeah. So everybody gets their own sort
• 9:27
  of special ones. My one son, he's a Marvel addict.
• 9:33
  So anything superhero on a mug goes to him. But
• 9:39
  everybody's now mugged out. So yeah, so now we'll
• 9:44
  have to think of something different. I do love
• 9:48
  a good mug. I love buying mug sets, pairs that
• 9:52
  are interesting. Like I have this set from Starbucks
• 9:55
  that has like dopamine and caffeine and serotonin
• 9:59
  on it. And one's black and one's white. Otherwise
• 10:02
  they're the same mug. But I've been banned from
• 10:05
  buying mugs. I'm not allowed to. Now we only
• 10:07
  have four mugs. I never knew this about you.
• 10:11
  Yeah, that's why I love your unicorn mug. Yeah,
• 10:15
  but why didn't you ever tell me you have a bunch
• 10:16
  of novelty mugs? Even when we work together,
• 10:18
  I never saw you have mugs at your desk. Yeah,
• 10:22
  performative minimalism. You're saying I'm performing.
• 10:26
  Let me, okay, on the topic of mugs real quick.
• 10:29
  I've started, whenever I go home, I've started
• 10:32
  getting my mom mugs whenever I see them. So like
• 10:35
  I do a lot of thrifting. Obviously I'll go to
• 10:38
  bookstores and then there'll be a mug. But it
• 10:40
  has to be a really like sac, what's the saccharine?
• 10:44
  Is that the word? Sweet. Like it always, I've
• 10:48
  been getting my mom every mug I see that's like
• 10:51
  best mom, number one mom to a point where it
• 10:54
  just annoys her. Okay, that's sweet. But also
• 10:57
  very cringey. It is, it's great. I'm doing it.
• 11:00
  It's been great. Yeah, well my mom's favorite
• 11:03
  mug is the one I got her for receiving tears.
• 11:06
  You know, it's got a lovely lady on it and 70
• 11:12
  is fabulous or something. Yeah. So she, that's
• 11:16
  her favourite mug. So I'm glad. Shane, they said,
• 11:19
  cause they're busy moving to a retirement village
• 11:23
  now. And they said to me that I'm the only one
• 11:26
  who buys them all of these like sentimental things.
• 11:30
  So yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad I'm a soppy thing
• 11:34
  like that. Yeah. I think it's good too. I'll
• 11:37
  keep buying my mom's mugs even if she gets annoyed.
• 11:43
  The other thing that I collect that is kind of
• 11:46
  strange is odd dictionaries. Like normal dictionaries,
• 11:50
  dictionaries that are very different. Not words.
• 11:55
  In what way? No, they are words. For example,
• 11:59
  there's this really old bookshop in... England
• 12:03
  called Foyle's Bookstore, I think. It's this
• 12:06
  guy, Christopher Foyle, who is a logophile, a
• 12:09
  lover of words, and he has been going through
• 12:13
  the English language for many years in his bookstore,
• 12:16
  and he curated two books called Foyle's Fallavory.
• 12:22
  Fallavory is a collection of strange and wonderful
• 12:24
  words. into these two books. And they're just
• 12:28
  like the most rarely used books in the English
• 12:31
  language. They are gorgeous. And then I have
• 12:34
  the big book of Talking Dirty, which is a collection
• 12:37
  of historical slurs. I'm into it. Yeah, so tell
• 12:43
  us something interesting then in words. What's
• 12:46
  your interesting words? What's the most interesting
• 12:49
  slur in the world, Ruby? You know, I don't remember
• 12:51
  any of them now. I'm drawing a total blank. Well,
• 12:55
  how about this? For an old word for lesbian was
• 13:02
  companion. So if two ladies lived together, nobody
• 13:07
  said that they were, you know, those terrible
• 13:10
  words. It was, this is companion. And everybody
• 13:14
  would be like, their eyes would be, oh, she has
• 13:16
  a companion. Right. That's, that's, uh, is this
• 13:21
  before? or after the star tattoos. Oh lord, no,
• 13:25
  I'm sure it was way before the star tattoos.
• 13:28
  I'm sure it's somewhere around like the twizz
• 13:31
  or something. What do you mean when you say that?
• 13:35
  The star tattoos. What do you guys mean when
• 13:37
  you say the star tattoos? Is there an inside
• 13:40
  joke you don't know about? No, it's not a joke.
• 13:43
  Off you go, Ray. Okay, I might be wrong on the
• 13:49
  history here. The star tattoos come from American
• 13:58
  culture, bar culture, and lesbian women would
• 14:02
  tattoo a little star on the inside of their wrist
• 14:04
  that was easy to cover and it would mark them
• 14:08
  out. I think it's also etymologically where maybe
• 14:13
  gold star lesbians come from and a gold star
• 14:16
  lesbian is someone who has never had relations
• 14:19
  with a man. Learning something new every day.
• 14:26
  I do not know that. Well done. I'm curious if
• 14:30
  that's real fact or just like folk lore. Lesbians
• 14:35
  folk lore. Gold star lesbians are a thing. It's
• 14:37
  a point of pride. But I do think that kind of
• 14:41
  leans into potentially like a, it's a sub category
• 14:47
  of purity culture in a way. It sounds like it,
• 14:51
  yeah. Yeah. Personally, not totally into it,
• 14:55
  but to each their own, yeah. Yeah. It sounds
• 15:00
  like... Carry on, Kim, you go first. No, no,
• 15:04
  I was just, I was just speculating. I had thought
• 15:08
  maybe it was something to do with, um, like the
• 15:11
  Holocaust, you know, because of the Star of David
• 15:14
  and how, like, the Jews and the gays were all
• 15:17
  like... executed together. So I thought maybe
• 15:21
  that's why the star was a thing. Yeah, yeah,
• 15:26
  yeah. And the pink triangle. Yeah. Yeah. No,
• 15:31
  I think this is just a five -pointed star. It's
• 15:35
  not the star of David. I might be wrong. I'm
• 15:38
  not a lesbian. I'm a bisexual person. Okay. Um,
• 15:46
  now I'm blushing. It sounds like we're about
• 15:47
  to touch on the meteor stuff of this podcast,
• 15:49
  so I'll ask my quick -fire question quickly and
• 15:53
  then we can share our... I'll take us away with
• 15:59
  the first perspective. My question is, what is
• 16:02
  a hobby that you always wanted to try but never
• 16:05
  did? Small figurine making. You never wanted
• 16:08
  to try that. I introduced you to it today. No,
• 16:12
  let me tell you real quick. Actually, actually,
• 16:15
  when I was young, I had a whole bunch of toys,
• 16:18
  like figurines, as most kids do, just garbage,
• 16:20
  because I had a big family, I had a lot of sisters,
• 16:22
  so there was a lot of junk. And there was a time
• 16:24
  when I got the idea from seeing some other artist,
• 16:27
  I guess, of dissecting the figurines and mismatching
• 16:31
  them and putting them all together in different
• 16:33
  ways. So, like, taking... a troll doll's head
• 16:36
  and putting it on the body of, like, a velociraptor.
• 16:39
  So I made up those weird art, and it really freaked
• 16:42
  my mom out. And she... I had a lot. And she all
• 16:46
  threw them all away. Because she thought something...
• 16:49
  Well, I mean, she was concerned. I guess it had
• 16:52
  serial killer vibes. But that wasn't the case,
• 16:55
  so... Ever watch Toy Story? Because you're giving
• 17:00
  antagonist vibes. Yeah, it's like, you know,
• 17:01
  Toy Story. Yeah, you're right. But it wasn't
• 17:03
  that weird. I think... If you saw them, you know,
• 17:06
  they had more artistic merit. They're really
• 17:08
  creative. I really thought about them. Like the
• 17:12
  potato man, the potato man. You're like Mr. Potato
• 17:15
  Head, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, they were
• 17:20
  small. Okay. But, okay, so yeah, I did dabble
• 17:25
  in figurines when I was a child. I gotta say.
• 17:28
  Well, you sound exactly like my brother. He was
• 17:31
  like he was younger than me. So he literally
• 17:35
  broke everything so yeah, your your exploits
• 17:39
  are very sort of Nostalgic for me, I guess Yeah,
• 17:45
  and for me my one my thing is playing the violin
• 17:50
  I love the violin And I don't think it's in many
• 17:55
  songs today, but yeah, because I'm not exactly,
• 18:00
  I am talking, I guess, about the operatic kind
• 18:03
  of violin, but then you also get the really jazzy
• 18:07
  kind of violin that was in songs like Shania
• 18:11
  Twain had a lot of violins jumping around in
• 18:15
  the back, but you know, jazzy kind of fun violins.
• 18:21
  I'm trying to think of the song now because it
• 18:25
  was a formative song for me from Shania Twain.
• 18:28
  I know exactly the one you're talking about with
• 18:30
  the violin. Where they're playing violin, I think
• 18:32
  in the rain. It's like multiple... Yeah, yeah,
• 18:35
  something like that. So I've always been really
• 18:38
  impressed with people who can play violin and
• 18:40
  I've always thought, well, one day. We possibly
• 18:46
  will do that, but right now we're super busy.
• 18:48
  So that's not going to happen. Instead, I play
• 18:54
  keyboard and guitar. It's enough for me. Very
• 18:59
  cool. Luigi, what were you saying when you think
• 19:03
  of violins? When I think of the violin, there's
• 19:05
  one song. I think it's the violin. It's obviously
• 19:09
  classical music. I think it's called the Dance
• 19:13
  of Death or something like that. Not literally
• 19:15
  English, the Dance of Death. It has some other
• 19:17
  kind of weird name. Is it that one where it's
• 19:22
  the devil, the dancing, the dueling with the
• 19:25
  devil or something? Maybe that's it. And then
• 19:26
  it's got a fiddle that... Yes. Yeah, it's like
• 19:31
  a... You know, like a country song. You know
• 19:35
  that one? It's the dance macabre. That's the
• 19:40
  song. That's the song I think of. Okay. I don't
• 19:43
  know if there's violins in it. Okay. It's got
• 19:47
  it. It's got like a fiddle. That's what I think
• 19:48
  of when I think of violence. Anyway, okay, that's
• 19:51
  a good answer. Yeah, something you wish you could
• 19:53
  learn. Yeah. Really? I think once you hear it,
• 19:56
  you'll go, ah, yes, I know what song he's talking
• 19:58
  about. But then you'll say that there are no
• 20:00
  violence. We'll send it to you after. You will
• 20:02
  see. Okay. Yeah, I also play guitar and keyboard.
• 20:09
  I guess it's an electric piano, but not so much
• 20:14
  anymore. I got busy. I used to watch TV too and
• 20:18
  now it's always just online posting videos and
• 20:23
  looking for people to talk to. And I love it
• 20:26
  way more. I find this extremely fulfilling. And
• 20:30
  that kind of brings me to my perspective today.
• 20:35
  I want to talk about the challenges in life because
• 20:41
  that's so broad. There are things that I've always
• 20:45
  wanted. to do and am doing now, but they're not
• 20:51
  easy. I've said before that I accidentally became
• 20:57
  a teacher. Being a teacher kind of happened to
• 21:00
  me through the course of my life and for a long
• 21:05
  time I just kind of accepted that. Much in the
• 21:08
  same way that I accepted my assigned gender at
• 21:11
  birth and in many ways Resilience came through
• 21:16
  from staying alive, staying subscribed to this
• 21:20
  thing that we call life and not electing to unsubscribe.
• 21:24
  But now also all of those skills kind of helped
• 21:28
  me to keep on doing this and not get tired and
• 21:34
  do crazy things like running two jobs. And now
• 21:38
  just last night I posted the first episode of
• 21:42
  a new second podcast. And yeah, I'm cheating
• 21:49
  on you, Louis. You didn't even tell me. It's
• 21:53
  called Freaky Friday with Ray and Bun. It's a
• 21:56
  drive -along. I'll tell you about it. Yeah, you're
• 21:59
  gonna have to. Jeez. So multiple social media
• 22:03
  accounts running all by myself and I... I just
• 22:07
  think that basically what I'm trying to get to
• 22:09
  is the perspective. We often let life hold us
• 22:14
  back because we are afraid to do the things that
• 22:17
  are hard. I feel like we talked about this. It
• 22:21
  seems so familiar. It's universal. Yeah, I guess
• 22:25
  that's why. I agree 110%. It is certainly hard
• 22:33
  to... I was talking about this with someone else
• 22:35
  today, actually. Are we really doing the things
• 22:37
  we really want to do? And if we think we're doing
• 22:39
  the things we really want to do, are those really
• 22:42
  our thoughts? Or is there like, that's the problem
• 22:44
  with ideology. It's the thing, we think we know
• 22:48
  what we're doing, but really there are other
• 22:51
  factors really pushing us or influencing us.
• 22:54
  You know, like the tip of the iceberg and everything
• 22:57
  underneath. So, yeah. I mean, do you mind doing
• 23:01
  what I want to do? I would say by default, yes.
• 23:04
  But like you, Ruby, I didn't exactly set out
• 23:06
  to do this. I did, when I was young, I wanted
• 23:08
  to teach in a university setting. And then it
• 23:11
  transformed into me teaching in an international
• 23:14
  school, K to 12 setting. So a lot of that was
• 23:18
  just because of where I was. And obviously other
• 23:20
  factors, like making a good wage. Yeah. I lost
• 23:25
  my train of thought. I had something even more
• 23:27
  important to say, but I'll leave the floor open
• 23:29
  to you two. And then when it... comes back in
• 23:32
  my head, I'm going to interrupt. Yeah. Look,
• 23:35
  I think you're right though, Luigi. It is a case
• 23:39
  of like, you know what, a lot of times we're
• 23:41
  pushed into either through circumstance or through
• 23:45
  expectations of other people. We're pushed into
• 23:49
  a certain way. And sometimes if it fits for us,
• 23:53
  you know, we don't mind going along. Um, and
• 23:56
  yeah, I think, um, you know, yeah. Yeah, we all
• 24:01
  make decisions though for ourselves. And I think
• 24:04
  for myself, at least it's been a case of, yes,
• 24:08
  you know, I spent a lot of time, people pleasing,
• 24:12
  you know, even without realizing it. But, but
• 24:17
  definitely, I mean, you want approval from your
• 24:19
  parents. You want approval from your peers. You
• 24:22
  know what? I mean, I think that as well, that's
• 24:26
  a universal thing. So, um. So yeah, I think that
• 24:32
  if you're finding yourself in a place where,
• 24:35
  you know, you're not sort of happy or what have
• 24:39
  you, I think you need to then do soul searching
• 24:42
  and find out why exactly because then you'll
• 24:46
  know, you know, and perhaps you'll know more
• 24:49
  of your own self, you know, when you do a bit
• 24:52
  of soul search and that, yeah, then you'll know
• 24:56
  more of your own self of what. What's going to
• 24:58
  make you happy and what's going to fulfill you
• 25:03
  more than perhaps we are. Kim, you've done some
• 25:08
  pretty incredible things in your life. My question
• 25:13
  is, do you think that now you're doing the things
• 25:17
  that you really want to do? Because for me, I
• 25:21
  feel a sense of responsibility, urgency, need.
• 25:28
  to have this podcast, not only to speak to people,
• 25:34
  but to also normalize my existence to other people
• 25:38
  and not just for me, for others as well. So am
• 25:41
  I doing the things that I really want to do?
• 25:44
  Yes, absolutely. I also feel a calling. My question
• 25:47
  is, is that the same for you? Yes. So very definitely
• 25:51
  that's where I started out. So a little bit of
• 25:53
  history. So I was married to a guy for 17 years,
• 25:57
  had two sons with him, and then we divorced.
• 26:01
  And after the divorce, that's when I started
• 26:04
  dating women. Then when I met somebody who was
• 26:08
  really amazing, who I've now been with for 21
• 26:12
  years. So yeah, so we committed. And yeah, so
• 26:20
  I met this amazing woman and told my parents,
• 26:25
  and bear in mind by now I'm like, I don't know,
• 26:28
  40 or something plus, and I'm telling my parents,
• 26:32
  and of course they're horrified. Yeah, no. Really?
• 26:36
  So they're like, but you were so normal. Why
• 26:39
  don't you just go back to being normal? And you
• 26:41
  know what? And so, so I struggled with that.
• 26:45
  Okay. And because of the struggle that I had
• 26:47
  with that, I was like, no, come on. I'm an adult.
• 26:51
  What the hell am I doing wanting approval from
• 26:55
  my parents? You know, and then I thought, well,
• 26:58
  Shane, what about these poor little teenage,
• 27:01
  you know, how they just. don't know anything
• 27:05
  about love, anything about themselves and like
• 27:09
  their parents are just like everything and the
• 27:13
  struggle that they face. So between me and a
• 27:16
  couple of friends, we decided to then start something
• 27:19
  and very much it was a case of, look, we know
• 27:23
  how we feel and we can't imagine how a kid would
• 27:28
  feel, you know, how much worse it would be for
• 27:32
  them. So Yeah, we wanted to be able to give them
• 27:35
  a safe space. And more importantly, we wanted
• 27:38
  to be able to speak with parents and just help
• 27:41
  parents go through that shock and that lack of
• 27:45
  information that they have. You know, because
• 27:48
  as well, I'm like really aware that that World
• 27:51
  Health Organization only declassified being gay
• 27:56
  as a mental illness in 1990. Okay. So. That's
• 28:03
  kind of really soon ago in our history. Anyone
• 28:09
  born or brought up before 1990 was taught it's
• 28:14
  a mental illness. There's something wrong with
• 28:17
  you. There's something physically wrong. Kids
• 28:20
  are all born heterosexual and cisgender. They're
• 28:24
  all fixing the box of boys and girls. And anything
• 28:27
  other than that is wrong. It needs to be fixed.
• 28:30
  or it's somebody's fault, definitely. So, talk
• 28:35
  that. And so really it's a case of, look, let's
• 28:39
  get more information out there and bring people
• 28:43
  along with extra information and that certainly
• 28:48
  helps. I see you there, Ray, and I'm thinking,
• 28:53
  you know, I know that information is not the...
• 28:56
  only thing that gets rid of transphobia and,
• 29:01
  you know, barphobia and homophobia. It doesn't.
• 29:06
  Information isn't the pill, as it were. It's
• 29:12
  one stepping stone in helping people come to
• 29:15
  terms with it, you know, if they're open to it.
• 29:19
  Absolutely. I agree with you. And that's one
• 29:22
  of the things that I struggled with in thinking,
• 29:25
  because I I had this kind of awakening and I
• 29:30
  know that sounds to anybody not trans I can sound
• 29:34
  very strange or anybody who hasn't gone through
• 29:38
  this realization that they aren't authentically
• 29:41
  themselves and when I did I had a lot of information
• 29:46
  available to me because I'm quite adept at doing
• 29:50
  things online and existing as a person. Really
• 29:54
  the first expression of my femininity was online
• 29:57
  in the form of an alter ego or at least a pseudonym
• 30:01
  that I had. And that's true for many trans women.
• 30:04
  There's a good reason there are so many trans
• 30:07
  programmers. What I had was information. Carry
• 30:14
  on. I'm so sorry about that. That happened to
• 30:23
  me two podcasts ago, right, Ruby? Yeah, it did.
• 30:26
  Yeah, exactly. With actually, you know her, Shay.
• 30:32
  We had Shay on here. Yeah. And Luigi had to leave
• 30:36
  for like 10 minutes. Just outside my door. Trying
• 30:41
  to fill in a form with a Chinese delivery, man.
• 30:45
  It was fun. My therapist, Luigi, and guest and
• 30:50
  friend of Kaleidoscope is the person who introduced
• 30:54
  me to Kim way back when I was desperately finding
• 30:58
  out about or getting information, which is exactly
• 31:02
  what we're talking about now. And I'll cut my
• 31:06
  story a little bit short. I had information.
• 31:08
  What I wanted was there are also trans personalities
• 31:12
  online that are really great. giving information
• 31:16
  and providing kinship. What I wanted to do is
• 31:19
  show existence with cis people. And I think all
• 31:26
  of it is needed. Everything is needed. It is.
• 31:29
  It is very much so. And I think that also, you
• 31:33
  know what, it brings a depth. So what you're
• 31:37
  doing is different to what they're doing. And
• 31:40
  while it's important, It brings a depth when
• 31:43
  you see different people doing different things,
• 31:48
  you know, and then the public can kind of understand
• 31:53
  that being trans is not a sort of a single -celled
• 32:01
  thing. You know, all trans people are like this,
• 32:04
  all trans people do that. Right, not one dimensional.
• 32:06
  You know, it's like, no, there's actual depth
• 32:10
  here. There's, there's, um, you know, different
• 32:13
  personalities, there's different skill sets,
• 32:16
  there's different everything, just like with
• 32:20
  cisgender people, they're complex, they're multifaceted.
• 32:26
  Transgender people are exactly the same. And
• 32:29
  yeah, it also leans a lot into the work that
• 32:33
  I do as well, is in bringing those together,
• 32:37
  you know? Yeah. How do you think a service like,
• 32:43
  or I guess platform, I'm not sure how to fully
• 32:47
  define Kaleidoscope as we continue to grow. How
• 32:51
  do you think something like us serves? the community
• 32:55
  that we're in and how do we link in and help
• 33:00
  people doing their, like, really hard groundwork,
• 33:04
  like what you're doing, creating laws. How do
• 33:08
  we help? How do we contribute to that? Yeah,
• 33:10
  look. So for myself, because the work that I'm
• 33:15
  doing is very much activism on a sort of a...
• 33:19
  Well, I'm not sure if your listeners will...
• 33:22
  will know exactly what I'm doing. So we started
• 33:26
  off as a nonprofit organization providing services
• 33:30
  to LGBT youth and to their parents. So basically
• 33:34
  we were looking at the family unit and trying
• 33:36
  to keep that together. And then I got to a stage
• 33:39
  where I was like, you know what, I'm so tired
• 33:41
  of putting people together after they've been
• 33:46
  hurt. by homophobia, transphobia, all that. So
• 33:50
  how about we stop it from happening before, before
• 33:54
  it gets to hurt somebody. So that's how Come
• 33:58
  Then Up went more into advocacy. And advocacy
• 34:02
  is where you actually like, for example, I used
• 34:05
  to go to speak at schools, I still can. That
• 34:08
  would be one way is to invite people to come
• 34:11
  and speak. wherever you are, if you're at a school,
• 34:15
  if you're at work, you know, if you're having
• 34:17
  a woman's breakfast or something, you can always
• 34:20
  have somebody come and speak and share, you know.
• 34:24
  It's about getting the word out there and it's
• 34:26
  also about offering whatever type of support
• 34:30
  you can, whether it be in kind. or whether it
• 34:34
  be financial or whether it be other resources,
• 34:37
  but yeah, it would be about that. I started off
• 34:41
  working in schools and then after that I was
• 34:44
  like, you know what, I'm one person. I can go
• 34:47
  to one school and maybe five, ten and near me,
• 34:52
  but if I go to the Department of Education, the
• 34:57
  National Department of Education, they If I can
• 35:02
  tell them what to do, they can just do a blanket
• 35:06
  thing over the whole of South Africa and say,
• 35:09
  look, every school has to do this. And so that's
• 35:15
  how my sort of journey in advocacy started. Yeah,
• 35:20
  we've done that. We've gone to the Department
• 35:24
  of Education. And when I say we, I mean, I think
• 35:27
  it's important to note that advocacy is never
• 35:30
  a one -person thing. You know, there's so many
• 35:34
  other people involved, whether it's lawyers or
• 35:39
  researchers or just lots of people involved.
• 35:45
  So then you get to actually make changes where
• 35:50
  they count, where the power is to affect that
• 35:56
  change over four more people than you could ever
• 36:00
  hope to meet. So yeah, so that, and yeah, obviously
• 36:05
  then it went a lot further than that. I just
• 36:09
  want clarification. So Kim, you have, so when
• 36:13
  Ruby told me about you, she said you were an
• 36:19
  advocate and you're fighting against hate speech,
• 36:22
  is that right? Correct, yes. Right. So, it sounds
• 36:27
  like you do a lot of things. And at the beginning,
• 36:30
  when we first started, you introduced yourself,
• 36:33
  and what was the place called? Same love. I'm
• 36:37
  sorry if I'm saying this wrong, because I've
• 36:38
  not said that ever again. Toady? Yeah. Okay,
• 36:41
  so that's your kind of like group or your, I
• 36:45
  don't know, can I say company? What do you call
• 36:47
  it? Yeah, so that's our sort of non -profit organization.
• 36:53
  There you go. I founded that. Yeah. And that
• 36:57
  is what provides, does service provision per
• 37:01
  se. And then from that, I also, we also got together
• 37:06
  an advocacy team to be able to do more, more
• 37:12
  work with, with, with people in power. So basically
• 37:16
  that comes to things like, like we've just had
• 37:19
  the Do you want me to go on and do the G20? Cause
• 37:23
  that's the most recent. Yeah. Okay. So the G20
• 37:30
  is just when 20 different countries get together
• 37:34
  and basically the presidents have a chat and
• 37:38
  decide, okay, these are changes that we can make,
• 37:42
  policies that we can draw up, laws that we can
• 37:45
  make to make our countries better for the people
• 37:48
  who live there. And yeah, so essentially there's
• 37:53
  also a C20, which is civil society. So now we're
• 37:58
  a nonprofit organization and our nonprofit organization
• 38:03
  has joined a coalition called the Hate Crimes
• 38:07
  Working Group. Now the Hate Crimes Working Group
• 38:10
  specifically advocates it for hate crime legislation
• 38:14
  in South Africa. That as well, that's a whole
• 38:17
  new... Different story, but essentially we got
• 38:20
  it passed in 2024. Oh wow, pretty recent. 23,
• 38:27
  yeah, 23, I think it was. And, um, and now we're
• 38:30
  focusing on implementation. And this is where
• 38:33
  now all of this other advocacy comes. Cause now
• 38:36
  the G20, it's G for governments. Okay. Government
• 38:41
  leadership and all that. C20 is for civil society.
• 38:45
  So the civil society gets together and Brazil,
• 38:48
  you had the G20 last year. This year it was South
• 38:52
  Africa, next year it's America. So this year
• 38:56
  we had the G20 and we got the policy pack from
• 39:03
  Brazil. Essentially, it's all the things that
• 39:06
  they thought was great. They give to us now and
• 39:10
  we see if we can improve on it. Okay. And so
• 39:14
  we looked and now in the C20, there's all of
• 39:18
  these different groups. There's a women's group,
• 39:20
  there's a disability group, a business group,
• 39:23
  whatever, whatever, whatever group. And there's
• 39:26
  nothing for LGBT people. Not at all. So we're
• 39:32
  like, well, okay. But then, you know, we went
• 39:35
  into the women's group and looked at their policy
• 39:38
  to see if we were included in there and we were
• 39:42
  not. We looked in the education policy. We were
• 39:45
  not included in there. We looked in all of the
• 39:48
  policies. There was not one mention of LGBT people
• 39:53
  anyway. And we were like offended, to put it
• 39:58
  mildly, to put it mildly. So we were quite annoyed.
• 40:04
  And so we decided, okay, fine. The C20 though,
• 40:10
  I'll give credit where credit is due. They did
• 40:14
  realize that there was a gap. So they said, no,
• 40:17
  no, no, no, no. We do want to meet with the LGBT
• 40:21
  community and we do want to hear what they have
• 40:25
  to say. And so we're going to make the guy in
• 40:28
  charge as the Sherpa. And then he has a Sue Sherpa,
• 40:32
  which is like deputy. But they said, no, they're
• 40:35
  going to two Sue Sherpas. And the one has to
• 40:39
  be from the queer community to represent them.
• 40:43
  So I thought, well, okay, that's, you know, that's
• 40:46
  great. So anyway. Yeah, makes sense. They did
• 40:49
  that, but then we, we still had to go into all
• 40:53
  of the policies. So there were 14, 14 different
• 40:58
  policies. and making sure that LGBT voices and
• 41:05
  let's be honest I mean LGBT people have very
• 41:09
  unique and separate challenges to what other
• 41:14
  people have so we had to make sure that those
• 41:18
  challenges were acknowledged and that there were
• 41:22
  suggestions on how to solve those problems you
• 41:26
  know so we did that and And I think we did the
• 41:30
  first draft on all of these policies. Then they
• 41:34
  said, all right, now we're going to do the second
• 41:35
  draft. And we went and we looked at the policy
• 41:39
  we had already done and, you know, we'd put stuff
• 41:41
  in. Now we were going to take it and do a second
• 41:44
  draft with it. And all of our LGBT stuff had
• 41:47
  been erased, just deleted. I know. We were so
• 41:54
  angry. So we went back into all of these meetings
• 41:57
  and said, No, we need to be in there. And we,
• 42:02
  we argued with everybody and got ourselves put
• 42:05
  back in again. Thank goodness. And then we decided,
• 42:09
  no, hold on. It's just too easy to just erase
• 42:12
  us. So let's, let's create the Q20, queer 20,
• 42:20
  you know, so that. Okay. Going forward, there
• 42:27
  is a working group that governments have to consult
• 42:30
  with. You see? So we literally made history.
• 42:37
  You can't take it away. And I'm honest, I am
• 42:42
  so proud of the LGBT people that, that, that,
• 42:46
  that, you know, worked, that, that we worked
• 42:50
  with and worked so hard to get this done. We
• 42:53
  created our own declaration that we submitted
• 42:57
  to the C20 because even the W20 and the Education20,
• 43:06
  they all have to submit their own declarations
• 43:09
  to the C20. And then the C20 takes all of that
• 43:15
  and makes one C20 declaration. So anyway, we
• 43:23
  created this Q20. We created the declaration.
• 43:29
  We launched it at the C20 summit. Yeah. So it's
• 43:35
  been done and going forward, like I said, that's
• 43:39
  the most important thing is going forward. You're
• 43:42
  always going to have to ask the queers. Yeah.
• 43:47
  And this happened. Like just last month? Yeah.
• 43:52
  Yeah, we've only just finished the G20 now. We've
• 43:55
  only just finished it. Yeah, because after the
• 43:58
  C20, once they make their declaration, which
• 44:02
  included us, and they listed all of the different
• 44:05
  working groups, and we were there, right at the
• 44:08
  bottom, but we were there. Yeah. Yeah, and then
• 44:15
  they give that to the G20, which is then the
• 44:20
  president of South Africa was given that. And
• 44:25
  at the G20 social summit, that's where we went
• 44:28
  and we gave this to the president. The president
• 44:33
  himself said, thank you very much for making
• 44:36
  this, you know, an inclusive policy and for,
• 44:40
  you know, all the months you've been working.
• 44:44
  Look, he was speaking to hundreds of us, but
• 44:48
  it was nice anyway. And he even mentioned all
• 44:51
  of these, you know, different groups like the
• 44:55
  D20 and the Q20. And of course all the gays are
• 45:00
  going... Yeah, yeah. You know, the president
• 45:04
  said our name. So, so yeah, so it was, it was
• 45:09
  fun and it was, it was exciting. Yeah. And we're
• 45:12
  just not thinking about next year. Right. When
• 45:17
  it goes to Trump, cause he's already said he
• 45:20
  won't accept our declaration and we're not invited
• 45:24
  to the G20 in America. And why do I, why do I,
• 45:28
  why do I? So he's already done all the... He's
• 45:30
  a whiny baby. Come on. It's not forever. He's
• 45:33
  not forever. No, well, I think that's what people
• 45:37
  like Trump forget, is that, you know, this is
• 45:40
  not our first time around the block. You know,
• 45:44
  we are used to fighting to exist, you know? Yeah,
• 45:48
  and it's... Yeah, it's... I mean, I understand
• 45:53
  why Trump would say it because he's Trump, but,
• 45:55
  you know, for America to... not have something
• 45:58
  like a Q20, I think. It's just... Yeah. It will
• 46:05
  happen. America can't not, because America, I
• 46:08
  think, historically, is always the first to kind
• 46:12
  of, you know, lead the way in things like that.
• 46:16
  Have you been watching America lately? I mean,
• 46:20
  I have. It's not in a good state. Well, look,
• 46:27
  we'll see however he reacts. So we will respond
• 46:32
  the way we respond. And the thing that we are
• 46:37
  encouraged about is that it is just America.
• 46:42
  Other countries are pretty much over it. They're
• 46:46
  saying, listen. We're an independent country.
• 46:49
  We're not, you know, we make our own rules for
• 46:51
  our own country and we'll do our own and we want
• 46:55
  to be inclusive. So we're having a lot of countries
• 46:58
  saying that. For example, the UK, the activists
• 47:03
  that we spoke to said, listen, you know, after
• 47:06
  America, the G20 comes to the UK. So whatever
• 47:11
  gets squashed in America will just revive. Yeah.
• 47:16
  You know, it's fine. It's fine. It's part of,
• 47:19
  it's part of just fighting to be alive. But this
• 47:24
  is one of our wins. So we've made history. You
• 47:27
  can't take that away. You can ignore it. You
• 47:30
  can try and, you know, break it down, whatever
• 47:33
  you're going to do. But at the end of the day,
• 47:36
  the history books have been written. Yep. So,
• 47:40
  okay, just to clarify. Yeah. So Q20, a creation
• 47:45
  of South Africa. We're more specifically your
• 47:48
  group. Very first to do it. Yeah, exactly. The
• 47:52
  very first. I am honored. The only thing is we're
• 48:00
  quite a raggedy bunch. No, we're not like these
• 48:03
  high people. We're just regular people. Yeah.
• 48:08
  Well, I think that's what the world needs to
• 48:10
  see. Examples of that. Just everybody being able
• 48:14
  and capable. not having to come from any particular
• 48:18
  point of privilege to, you know, achieve something
• 48:21
  great that makes the world a better place. Yeah.
• 48:27
  Yeah. And to be honest with you, that is kind
• 48:31
  of my message that I really want to go away with
• 48:34
  is to be saying, listen, you know, I come from
• 48:38
  a sort of a thing of I'm just a housewife. I
• 48:43
  don't have it. degree, um, I'm not a lawyer.
• 48:48
  I'm not, but it's just a case of look, um, I'm
• 48:52
  there and I'm put, you know, you can always learn
• 48:56
  what the laws are. You can always learn how to
• 48:59
  change them. You can always, you know, that's
• 49:02
  the only way I've done it is sort of learning
• 49:05
  on the job and just going from, from strength
• 49:08
  to strength, but you know, being supported by.
• 49:12
  all the other activists and that as well around
• 49:15
  us. So I think just it's a case of what I've
• 49:20
  done, anybody can do it. If you want to do it,
• 49:23
  you can do it, you know? Yes. One foot in front
• 49:27
  of the other and you can do it. Yeah, I think
• 49:31
  the, I think, yeah, I mean, to put it bluntly,
• 49:34
  knowledge is free, more or less. It's only the
• 49:38
  idea that... It isn't, and that stops people
• 49:41
  from even trying to learn because I think in
• 49:45
  the past, at least for me, maybe in my generation
• 49:48
  growing up, it was that you have to go to school,
• 49:50
  for example. You have to pay for knowledge, but
• 49:53
  nothing stops a person from, especially nowadays
• 49:57
  with the internet, let's say, but nothing stops
• 49:59
  a person from going into the library and opening
• 50:02
  a book or talking to people who had the privilege
• 50:05
  of going to education. A friend of mine growing
• 50:07
  up, their family, were very wealthy and just
• 50:11
  because of the success of that person's father
• 50:13
  who explained to us all he did was when he was
• 50:17
  young he just went to the library and he learned
• 50:19
  and then he you know grew this like incredible
• 50:22
  business and they were such a really successful
• 50:25
  family again yeah anyone can do it it's just
• 50:29
  a question of knowing the only person that might
• 50:34
  be getting in your ways yourself 100%, you know?
• 50:39
  And I think this does come back to what Ray was
• 50:42
  saying about resilience. You come against these
• 50:46
  things that bring you down, and sometimes one
• 50:49
  of those things is yourself and your lack of
• 50:52
  confidence, you know? And if you can just put
• 50:56
  yourself in a place of, look, I'm just gonna
• 50:59
  try this, you know, and then just not give up.
• 51:03
  For example, when we started, Okay. We, we, we'd
• 51:06
  made this decision in my lounge that we were
• 51:08
  going to start this organization. Okay. And,
• 51:12
  and, and, um, and so all we did was put an ad
• 51:17
  in the newspaper that we were going to have the
• 51:19
  support group and we spoke to the library and
• 51:22
  asked them if we could use one of their rooms.
• 51:24
  And then every month we went to the library and
• 51:28
  we took coffee and tea and muffins and nobody
• 51:31
  came. Nobody came. Right, yeah. And the next
• 51:38
  month was the same. So we were giving out our
• 51:41
  muffins to, you know, the homeless people on
• 51:44
  the street and the security guard. So they liked
• 51:47
  us very much. And my partner even said, what
• 51:51
  are we even doing this for? Like, nobody's coming.
• 51:54
  We must just give it up. People were coming,
• 51:56
  but the security guards were stopping them because
• 51:58
  they wanted the muffins. They wanted the muffins.
• 52:03
  Yeah, they were beating off the gays. Go! It's
• 52:06
  our mother! Nobody ever knew, eh? Yeah, no, but,
• 52:10
  um, so we just continued. And eventually people
• 52:14
  started dribbling in, you know, little bit by
• 52:17
  little bit. And we grew from strength to strength.
• 52:20
  So yeah, it's a case of, yeah, it is a kind of,
• 52:24
  it is a tough road to go. But you learn on the
• 52:28
  way. I mean, you know, and there's so many more
• 52:32
  people more qualified than you, but they might
• 52:36
  be more qualified, but they also either don't
• 52:39
  have the time or that's not their focus for their
• 52:43
  life or what have you. You're, you're filling
• 52:47
  a gap that other people are not. So yeah, it's
• 52:51
  a case of just going, even though you don't have
• 52:53
  the confidence. or the skills, just do it anyway.
• 52:58
  It's like my dating life. Just do it. Ruby, we've
• 53:03
  mentioned something like this before, haven't
• 53:04
  we? It sounds so familiar. We've talked about
• 53:06
  this. Remind me. Just do the things that you
• 53:11
  want to do. Definitely. It's a topic that often
• 53:15
  permeates the conversations I'm in. But I don't
• 53:18
  remember anything particular right now. Yeah
• 53:21
  It's something that I've told my kids because
• 53:24
  they're like well, they're like everybody else
• 53:26
  You know, I mean everybody has some something
• 53:29
  they don't like about the world around them You
• 53:32
  know, this life's fair whatever whatever but
• 53:35
  then change it Change it. I could change it and
• 53:41
  that takes hard work and and Yeah, so But it
• 53:47
  is at least something you can do. Right. And
• 53:53
  I think also the thing is also don't be too comfortable.
• 53:56
  Don't be too comfortable. Don't take things for
• 53:59
  granted. Yeah, always good advice. Definitely.
• 54:04
  Yeah. Yeah, for example, yeah. Go ahead. No,
• 54:09
  in South Africa, we've had a marriage equality
• 54:12
  since 2006. Okay. Thank you to the lesbians.
• 54:18
  Thank you lesbians. That's a funny story. The
• 54:26
  lesbian, there was a lesbian couple and they
• 54:29
  wanted to adopt these kids. They weren't allowed.
• 54:32
  And so they said, no, no, no, no, they're going
• 54:34
  to go to court first to adopt the kids and worry
• 54:38
  about getting married later. So we were, and
• 54:40
  lesbians were, and gay. gay couples were allowed
• 54:43
  to adopt kids from 2005. Really? Yeah, they were
• 54:48
  allowed to adopt kids first before they got married.
• 54:51
  Then, in 2006, we were allowed to get married,
• 54:56
  actually get married. It was probably happening,
• 54:59
  and the government was thinking, we look really
• 55:01
  silly. Yeah, yeah. So we've had that, and you
• 55:06
  know what, we could be really comfortable and
• 55:09
  say, yeah, that's great, but... Guess where I
• 55:12
  was yesterday. Guess where I was. I was sitting
• 55:16
  in front of parliament online like this though.
• 55:20
  Okay. And they're looking at the marriage bill
• 55:24
  and at the moment South Africa has three marriage
• 55:28
  laws, one for heterosexuals, one civil union
• 55:33
  for same -sex couples and then one for traditional
• 55:37
  and religious marriages. And they all have different
• 55:42
  rules and what not. So they've decided, okay,
• 55:51
  now they're going to have one law, but first
• 55:53
  they have to have a public hearing, you see,
• 55:57
  and see what the public think. Well, of course,
• 56:00
  so all of the religious nuts are out there. We
• 56:04
  can't have the gays getting married. So yeah,
• 56:08
  we're responsible apparently for a lot of things.
• 56:11
  Like there's a 5 % drop in marriages across the
• 56:15
  world. Clearly, it's because the gays have been
• 56:17
  allowed to get married. That has nothing to do
• 56:19
  with the economy. No, not at all. So, okay, jokes
• 56:26
  aside. Jokes aside. There are real people that
• 56:31
  are well funded and well connected and are very
• 56:36
  keen to get rid of the rights of LGBT community
• 56:41
  in general. So it is so important for us to be
• 56:46
  in those spaces where we say, okay, we've got
• 56:50
  this law and this new law that they are speaking
• 56:54
  about introducing is inclusive. of everybody,
• 56:59
  it's really good, you know? But unless we have
• 57:04
  people standing up and saying, no, this is a
• 57:06
  good law, then all the government is going to
• 57:11
  hear is how terrible the law is, how we can't
• 57:14
  have gays getting married, how we can't have
• 57:16
  this, how we can't have that. Yeah, that's a
• 57:18
  really good point. So yeah, so although we've
• 57:21
  had marriage equality for like 20 years, you
• 57:26
  know, we can't ever take that for granted. So
• 57:29
  yeah, so that's, that's what we've been doing
• 57:32
  as well. Yeah. You make a really good point.
• 57:34
  It does need to be simplified. Like, when I actually
• 57:38
  was aware of the fact that you were in parliament,
• 57:41
  because I was speaking to another person who
• 57:45
  was also in parliament. Who? Leanne. Oh, Leanne!
• 57:52
  Oh, she's, she's... She's one of my favorite
• 57:55
  people. She's amazing. I had the privilege of
• 57:58
  meeting her when I was in South Africa and I'd
• 58:03
  like to think that we've become somewhat friendly
• 58:07
  and I asked for her help because I'm not able
• 58:12
  to get a hold of DHA to find out if my changes
• 58:17
  have been affected and if I can apply for a new
• 58:20
  birth certificate and what my new ID number is.
• 58:24
  Um, because I'm in China and I tried to call,
• 58:28
  I was on hold for 12 minutes and I got a 300
• 58:32
  Rand bill. Uh, that's 150 RMB for Luigi and it's
• 58:38
  about $30, $40 for Americans for being on hold.
• 58:45
  No, less than that. Not even. Oh, sorry. $15.
• 58:49
  $15. Yeah. Yeah. Not that much for an American,
• 58:52
  but still. Yeah. So anyway, I was like, Leanne,
• 58:55
  please help me. Please, please can you check?
• 58:58
  And she said, I will, but on Thursday because
• 59:01
  I'm in parliament now. That girl is everywhere
• 59:09
  and she knows everything and she's got the skinner
• 59:12
  down on everybody. And I'm like, oh my gosh.
• 59:16
  She's on fire. Like I'm scared of her. She's
• 59:20
  supposed to be reckoned with for sure. She is
• 59:24
  she is and yet she's got a heart of gold. Hey,
• 59:27
  she really has I mean and an Integrity like you
• 59:31
  won't believe such integrity. I've got so much
• 59:35
  time for her Honestly, and she said such a good
• 59:40
  advocate for trans and gender rights Yeah, absolutely
• 59:44
  Luigi. Hopefully you get a chance to meet her
• 59:46
  as well As I make the rounds in South Africa.
• 59:50
  I like it. Sorry, what was that? He said, I like
• 59:52
  doing the circuit. It's great. Yeah, it's a lot
• 59:55
  of fun. We had a lovely conversation with a man,
• 59:59
  Chase King in Cape Town, who started a different
• 1:00:04
  sphere. But again, within that context of we
• 1:00:07
  need everything. Yeah. He started this expressly
• 1:00:13
  LGBTQIA plus inclusive hostel in Cape Town called
• 1:00:17
  SoulFam Hostel. Wonderful. That is so needed.
• 1:00:22
  Yeah. Exactly. Because a lot of hostels are diverse,
• 1:00:27
  but they're not inclusive. And this one is, I
• 1:00:31
  had the privilege of staying there when I was
• 1:00:33
  in Cape Town. So dear listeners, if you are traveling
• 1:00:36
  to South Africa, please do go to Cape Town. That's
• 1:00:41
  also where really the Cape Town mafia is, isn't
• 1:00:46
  it? They're the number one antagonists to our
• 1:00:50
  rights in the country. Okay, who exactly are
• 1:00:54
  you talking about? I'm not exactly sure. I'm
• 1:00:58
  speaking from rumor here. Theorically, I have
• 1:01:02
  heard of the Cape Town mafia, quote unquote,
• 1:01:06
  a conservative think tank. that is hell bent
• 1:01:09
  on demolishing trans and or LGBT rights in South
• 1:01:14
  Africa. Well, we've seen it very much when it
• 1:01:16
  comes to education. The education side, we got,
• 1:01:20
  like I told you, we were trying to get the national
• 1:01:24
  department of education to do something. So what
• 1:01:28
  they did do, because to be honest, they're on
• 1:01:31
  the sides of LGBT people because in South Africa,
• 1:01:38
  We have the laws that say you're not allowed
• 1:01:42
  to discriminate. And then kids go to school and
• 1:01:44
  then they get either bullied or discriminated
• 1:01:47
  against by the teachers. So then the Department
• 1:01:50
  of Education gets sued. And the Department of
• 1:01:53
  Education comes to it every time because it's
• 1:01:56
  clear the child's been discriminated against
• 1:01:58
  and so therefore they have to pay the fines.
• 1:02:01
  And so they're not happy about that, obviously.
• 1:02:04
  So yes, they're wanting. things like SOGIE AC
• 1:02:07
  education and schools. So we worked together
• 1:02:11
  for about two years on a sort of a, what's the
• 1:02:16
  word I'm looking for? But like a book on SOGIE
• 1:02:20
  AC issues for schools. And it was done. It was
• 1:02:25
  passed. The heads of department had all passed
• 1:02:27
  it, everything. They went to every province,
• 1:02:31
  the Department of Education went to every province
• 1:02:33
  and did training on it. And once everything was
• 1:02:37
  done, they were just about to put it into place
• 1:02:39
  when, as you say, the Cape Town mafia came into
• 1:02:44
  place and said, no, they feel that they don't
• 1:02:48
  feel like we've had enough. What was it? Consultation.
• 1:02:52
  There wasn't enough consultation, so they didn't
• 1:02:54
  want it. And we, me and Leanne, and a number
• 1:02:58
  of people jumped up and down and lost our minds
• 1:03:00
  a little bit and said, how can one province hold
• 1:03:04
  the rest of us to ransom? If we are a democracy,
• 1:03:10
  surely the other, I think we have nine provinces.
• 1:03:15
  Geez, I should know this. Nine provinces. I think
• 1:03:21
  we have nine provinces. And we do. And only one
• 1:03:29
  said no. And so now it's been put back in the
• 1:03:35
  box and everybody's quiet about it. So we're
• 1:03:39
  still trying to get that out again. But yeah,
• 1:03:43
  at the moment it's a uphill battle. But it's
• 1:03:47
  there, it's created, it's done. We just need
• 1:03:52
  to get it into the hands of the schools. But
• 1:03:56
  yes, so we have somebody in Cape Town just causing
• 1:04:02
  nonsense. Yes. And, well, let's not name names
• 1:04:09
  today because I do feel there are certain public
• 1:04:13
  figures around the world that... are the loudest
• 1:04:16
  voices and they should really just... Sometimes
• 1:04:20
  just hush. Well, unfortunately, if you tell a
• 1:04:24
  lie often enough, it sounds true. I won't say
• 1:04:28
  it becomes true because it never becomes true,
• 1:04:31
  but people begin to believe it. So, this is why
• 1:04:34
  as well, it is so important for us to just speak
• 1:04:38
  out so that you don't only hear these negative
• 1:04:42
  voices. It's important... us to speak and it
• 1:04:45
  doesn't mean you have to know everything. Even
• 1:04:48
  if you don't know anything, then just, just speak
• 1:04:51
  out anyway, you know, even if it's just from
• 1:04:54
  your heart and it, you must just speak out. One
• 1:04:58
  of the reasons I'm hesitant to name the people
• 1:05:00
  that I know are loud voices is because naming
• 1:05:04
  them platforms them. It gives them, it makes
• 1:05:07
  other people go there and it makes the algorithm
• 1:05:11
  push their names higher into societal sphere
• 1:05:15
  of knowledge. And I just think that for the most
• 1:05:20
  part, they should be entirely ignored, mentioned
• 1:05:23
  in passing. Right. Yes, I agree. Um, yeah, I
• 1:05:32
  do agree on that. Luigi, what's your perspective
• 1:05:35
  for tonight or question that you want to delve
• 1:05:37
  into? Yeah, I want to I want to delve into Well,
• 1:05:43
  let's talk about hate speech because I'm curious
• 1:05:47
  curious what Kim can teach us about it and how
• 1:05:51
  it well like operates in what she does because
• 1:05:58
  Yeah, how does how does hate speech manifest
• 1:06:01
  in antagonizing your your I won't say journey,
• 1:06:08
  but, you know, your goal and what you want to
• 1:06:12
  set out to do. Because when I think of hate speech,
• 1:06:15
  I think of just, like, outright vitriolic language
• 1:06:19
  to people that's, like, violent and aggressive.
• 1:06:22
  But I think maybe it's more finessed. And I'm
• 1:06:26
  just wondering, Kim, if you can define it for
• 1:06:28
  us or tell us, like, how do we know it? How do
• 1:06:33
  we recognize it? How do we stop it? Yeah. So
• 1:06:37
  that was one of the things that we did is we
• 1:06:40
  actually wrote the hate crime legislation that
• 1:06:44
  we advocated for. And so in that legislation,
• 1:06:48
  we were then, you have to actually define what
• 1:06:53
  constitutes hate speech. So the way we defined
• 1:06:58
  it was that it had to be hateful towards a group.
• 1:07:03
  All right. So not, I could say. I hate Joe Soap,
• 1:07:08
  but I can't say I hate Joe Soap because he's
• 1:07:12
  gay, you know, and all gays are rubbish and what
• 1:07:14
  have you. So that, that, that, but then also
• 1:07:19
  to go even further and say it must be against
• 1:07:23
  a group and it must create harm or incite harm
• 1:07:27
  and encourage other people to, to be harmful
• 1:07:31
  towards. towards a particular group. So that's
• 1:07:35
  how we've defined it. So what I've found is that
• 1:07:37
  a lot of people still come to us and say, you
• 1:07:41
  know, this and this happened and this is hate
• 1:07:44
  speech and, you know, we must sort of get them
• 1:07:48
  kind of thing. Yeah, many, many times we have
• 1:07:51
  to say, just calm down. That actually doesn't,
• 1:07:54
  uh, legally, no, it doesn't. meet that standard,
• 1:07:59
  it might be hateful, it might be offensive, it
• 1:08:03
  might be hurtful, it might be whatever, it might
• 1:08:07
  be horrible, you know, but it has to be raised
• 1:08:13
  to the sort of height of being a crime as well.
• 1:08:21
  So officially for us, it has to also do that.
• 1:08:26
  I can give an example. For example, may I try?
• 1:08:31
  Yeah. If I were to say group X are all stupid
• 1:08:37
  and they don't know what they're doing as a demographic
• 1:08:42
  of an entire country or society, that technically
• 1:08:46
  isn't hate speech. But if I said group X should
• 1:08:50
  be banned from society and beaten whenever possible,
• 1:08:54
  that would be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 1:09:00
  So that is pretty much it. We've just had an
• 1:09:04
  example that we're working with now. So let's
• 1:09:07
  do what you say. Let's not give more airtime
• 1:09:11
  to the actual need. But this person said that
• 1:09:15
  gays were to be killed and then they have a fairly
• 1:09:19
  big following. So their followers online... were
• 1:09:23
  like, yeah, we got the guns, we got everything,
• 1:09:26
  come on, let's go. He then took a mob, literally,
• 1:09:31
  from Durban to Joburg, where he tried to get
• 1:09:35
  the gays over there. And yeah, the police were
• 1:09:40
  called in and what, what, what. Then he came
• 1:09:43
  back to Durban and continued with saying all
• 1:09:47
  these horrible things that he was saying, and
• 1:09:49
  literally it had a negative effect on LGBT people
• 1:09:52
  here. People were thrown off public transport.
• 1:09:58
  A transgender woman was stabbed because this
• 1:10:02
  person's, yeah, the perpetrator was like, no,
• 1:10:07
  you're not allowed to be here. He even went on
• 1:10:11
  to stab the family because the family was allowing
• 1:10:14
  their transgender child to stay at their house.
• 1:10:22
  So it really went into a thing. So we've actually
• 1:10:26
  now taken him to court, the quality court on
• 1:10:30
  this whole thing and recharging him with hate
• 1:10:32
  speech. And yeah, he really is a sort of perfect
• 1:10:40
  case if you want to describe hate speech because
• 1:10:44
  This is the hate speech results in violence hate
• 1:10:49
  speech results in her and yes So yeah, and then
• 1:10:53
  to go on your next thing because you said and
• 1:10:56
  how do we stop that? Well, first of all prevention
• 1:11:00
  is a different thing altogether Because now prevention
• 1:11:04
  means that now we're looking at ways to stop
• 1:11:08
  the behavior, you know? So legislation is one
• 1:11:13
  of the first ways you can do it, because without
• 1:11:16
  legislation, how are you going to know? I mean,
• 1:11:20
  we all know technically, but when it comes down
• 1:11:24
  to research and that there's no, like currently,
• 1:11:28
  there's no data, and you can't collect data because
• 1:11:34
  it's not documented. Whereas now that we have
• 1:11:38
  hate speech and hate crime as a law, now it can
• 1:11:44
  be documented. Now we can say, all right, there's
• 1:11:48
  a hundred cases of hate speech. And why was there
• 1:11:52
  this? It was there because of maybe it was a
• 1:11:55
  religious group or something. So then we would
• 1:12:00
  go to churches and try and educate them. get
• 1:12:05
  them on board, you know, to at least say the
• 1:12:08
  simplest thing like, please don't kill gay people.
• 1:12:12
  Right. You would think that churches would want
• 1:12:14
  to say, please don't kill people. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:12:20
  So, but anyway, yeah. And then in schools, it's
• 1:12:25
  easier to teach in schools to say, listen, guys,
• 1:12:29
  if you don't want to end up in jail, you know.
• 1:12:33
  Don't break the law. And this is one of the laws
• 1:12:35
  you're not allowed to break. So prevention comes
• 1:12:40
  down to education and just awareness. One of
• 1:12:46
  the things I like to ask politicians is to do
• 1:12:49
  things like, you know, like we did with AIDS.
• 1:12:51
  With AIDS, we put posters everywhere. There were
• 1:12:57
  billboards on the freeway. Adverts on the TV,
• 1:13:01
  all these public announcements, public service
• 1:13:04
  announcements were just plastered everywhere
• 1:13:08
  you can think of. And that's what we need to
• 1:13:12
  do with LGBT rights as well. We need to be saying,
• 1:13:17
  listen, gays are allowed to get married. So don't
• 1:13:21
  complain if you see them get dating, you know?
• 1:13:26
  Transgender people are allowed to transition.
• 1:13:29
  Don't complain if you see a transgender person.
• 1:13:34
  There's a high chance that what you think is
• 1:13:36
  a transgender person isn't actually a transgender
• 1:13:38
  person. Exactly. Exactly. Stop stereotyping people.
• 1:13:46
  Yeah. That's another one. I mean, there's so
• 1:13:49
  many we could put out there. This is why we need
• 1:13:52
  flags. Yeah. I do believe it would help, you
• 1:13:57
  know, but... But yeah, it won't always because
• 1:14:01
  if a person is hateful and they're just looking
• 1:14:03
  for a reason to hate, hate is gonna hate. It's
• 1:14:08
  just the way it is. True, truer words. But I
• 1:14:12
  suppose, you know, it sounds like the law is
• 1:14:15
  pretty good in protecting the people. I mean,
• 1:14:18
  the laws are set up and all that, you know, all
• 1:14:22
  that can happen is that people become aware of
• 1:14:25
  these laws and maybe that will... incentivize
• 1:14:28
  them from doing anything really bad, as opposed
• 1:14:33
  to a place where there aren't any laws made.
• 1:14:35
  So can you stop that? South Africa has a really
• 1:14:38
  incredible constitution. Sorry, you carry on.
• 1:14:43
  Okay. I was just going to say South Africa has
• 1:14:46
  an incredible constitution and a lot of really
• 1:14:48
  good laws. The part where we struggle is application.
• 1:14:53
  Well, yeah, I guess so. But to me, that just
• 1:14:57
  doesn't, it's a paradox to me. It doesn't make
• 1:14:59
  sense because you have all these laws, really
• 1:15:02
  good laws, but the applications. So why? Why
• 1:15:05
  is that? It's governmental incompetence. It's
• 1:15:07
  because of the homophobia. Yeah. Sorry, Kim.
• 1:15:11
  I think that we struggle with application because
• 1:15:15
  of corruption and incompetence. That's all. Once
• 1:15:18
  those problems are solved, almost all of South
• 1:15:21
  Africa's problems disappear. Yeah. Yeah. No,
• 1:15:25
  but I also think it is homophobia and transphobia
• 1:15:29
  and that because we can go and educate people.
• 1:15:34
  Like, for example, we went and did a sensitization
• 1:15:38
  on this one police station that was known for
• 1:15:43
  being homophobic. Wow. The thing is not only
• 1:15:48
  did we give them sensitization. All right. There's
• 1:15:52
  also a protocol that all police and all police
• 1:15:57
  stations are supposed to follow. It's called
• 1:16:00
  the standard operating procedures. Okay. Right.
• 1:16:04
  And they have special standard operating procedures
• 1:16:08
  for LGBT people. And that's not even coming from
• 1:16:13
  an activist. That is, the police themselves have
• 1:16:19
  standard operating procedures. The problem is
• 1:16:22
  police on the ground either don't know they're
• 1:16:25
  there or they don't care that they're there.
• 1:16:28
  But that certainly was the case where we found,
• 1:16:32
  we went there, we did what's his name with them.
• 1:16:36
  So we had... trained them essentially and then
• 1:16:40
  it was about I think six months to a year later
• 1:16:44
  we had a case of someone going there and being
• 1:16:49
  treated horribly quite humiliating you know and
• 1:16:53
  it turned out then they didn't want to open a
• 1:16:56
  case at all and they walked out and thank goodness
• 1:17:00
  they phoned me and they told me darn, darn, you
• 1:17:04
  know, police station. They won't open my case.
• 1:17:07
  These are the terrible things they've said to
• 1:17:09
  me. And I was like, just wait there. And I got
• 1:17:13
  in my car, drove over there. And yeah, I just
• 1:17:18
  walked in and said, okay, can I speak to your
• 1:17:21
  station commander? And then you see all of the
• 1:17:24
  police like, pardon? Why, why, why do you want
• 1:17:28
  to speak to them? And then, yeah. And then once
• 1:17:31
  I started talking, because obviously I didn't
• 1:17:35
  go there as little old me. I went there as like,
• 1:17:39
  I'm the chair of the hate crimes working group.
• 1:17:42
  We document hate crimes. We believe we have a
• 1:17:46
  victim here that's trying to open a case and
• 1:17:48
  like, what is the problem? You know? And then
• 1:17:51
  they're like, ah, but, but. We didn't know. And
• 1:17:54
  I'm like, okay, so here's the poster that you
• 1:17:56
  have on your wall. Why aren't you following those
• 1:17:59
  steps? They're on the wall. You put them there.
• 1:18:03
  I didn't even put them there. And what about
• 1:18:06
  your standard operating procedures? They say
• 1:18:08
  boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then you see,
• 1:18:12
  okay. So tell us what's your name? Ha, ha, ha.
• 1:18:17
  And suddenly we had four policemen. on the case
• 1:18:21
  and then later, can't remember how long later,
• 1:18:25
  but I was quite impressed. They were really quick.
• 1:18:28
  I think it was about eight months or something
• 1:18:30
  and they'd caught somebody, you know, being identified
• 1:18:34
  by the victim and yeah, put through the court
• 1:18:39
  system and put in jail. So I was impressed. They
• 1:18:45
  did a jolly good job. That's awesome. That's
• 1:18:48
  a really good story. Yeah, don't call you Kim.
• 1:18:54
  Every jolly police station and puts a firework
• 1:18:57
  under their bum. Yeah. But maybe what, I don't
• 1:19:02
  know, maybe what you did, maybe someone will
• 1:19:04
  find, I mean, I mean, we're finding out about
• 1:19:07
  this from you, but surely someone has heard that
• 1:19:10
  story because of you and maybe they will do the
• 1:19:14
  same. So, I mean, I feel like you are. having
• 1:19:16
  a pretty... Now a lot more people are going to
• 1:19:19
  hear it. There you go. There you go. And you
• 1:19:24
  see, the thing is a lot more people are able
• 1:19:27
  to do exactly that same thing. You don't need
• 1:19:30
  a degree to do what I did. You know, you just
• 1:19:33
  go in there and... Yeah. This is all I do is
• 1:19:38
  with all LGBT people that come through me, I'm
• 1:19:43
  saying to them, right guys, these are your rights.
• 1:19:45
  And they're like, yeah, but the police won't
• 1:19:47
  listen. I'm like, okay, so these are their responsibilities.
• 1:19:52
  And yeah, it is a case of knowing your rights
• 1:19:57
  and just getting that information out there.
• 1:20:02
  This is a really interesting conversation for
• 1:20:05
  me. I'd like to share something that I'm doing
• 1:20:07
  through Be True To Me. transgender nonprofit
• 1:20:14
  organization, Focus on Transgender Folk in South
• 1:20:17
  Africa have a support group online. And I'm in
• 1:20:21
  that group. Through that group, I have met a
• 1:20:25
  couple of trans women, which is really just a
• 1:20:29
  big relief for me. Since meeting these women,
• 1:20:33
  with one of them I am entering into business
• 1:20:36
  with. We will start selling LGBTQIA plus jewelry,
• 1:20:40
  hopefully in February. in South Africa. Thank
• 1:20:45
  you. We're busy building the catalog. Moving
• 1:20:48
  on. We have also started, I started my own Discord
• 1:20:52
  server, which is supposed to function as an inclusive
• 1:20:56
  online space that is adult -friendly, sex -positive,
• 1:21:01
  and trans -focused. So this is a kind of a...
• 1:21:06
  opaque group. It's closed, right? It's got a
• 1:21:09
  specific audience. But through establishing that,
• 1:21:13
  I met another Discord server, which is trans
• 1:21:17
  -focused and information -based and open to all.
• 1:21:21
  And I started talking to that trans woman who
• 1:21:25
  has been running that server for quite a while.
• 1:21:28
  And we have since become sister servers with
• 1:21:31
  different purposes in slightly different audiences.
• 1:21:35
  We would like to grow. So we started another
• 1:21:38
  platform, which is meant to be community run
• 1:21:42
  online space for the, again, trans focus, but
• 1:21:49
  open to all providing information because it's
• 1:21:52
  hard to find. Sometimes you need, you need an
• 1:21:56
  active group of people contributing. socially
• 1:22:00
  to create a space that is open for newcomers
• 1:22:03
  to say, Hey, I need help. It's sometimes it's
• 1:22:07
  daunting to go to a nonprofit organization from
• 1:22:11
  the start, right? So anyway, we have this third
• 1:22:15
  platform, which is meant to serve as a filter
• 1:22:18
  and information page. And if you would share
• 1:22:23
  it to me, I would love to. put the posters and
• 1:22:26
  the standard operating procedures for police
• 1:22:29
  and all of that on there and provide guidance
• 1:22:32
  for more people. Make it into jewelry, Ruby.
• 1:22:36
  Sorry? Make it into jewelry. You want the jewelry?
• 1:22:42
  You want the jewelry, yeah. I want you to make
• 1:22:44
  those operating standards as jewelry. As jewelry.
• 1:22:48
  One standard, one necklace. One standard, one
• 1:22:52
  necklace. There you go. That's a great idea,
• 1:22:54
  I think. Yeah, so there's a whole range of right
• 1:23:06
  now focused on coming out, proud parent, transgender,
• 1:23:12
  gay, and lesbian are the focus for now. And later
• 1:23:16
  we will expand to be more more sexualities, more
• 1:23:22
  identities, and also more allies. And when you're
• 1:23:26
  talking about coming out, please remember that
• 1:23:29
  it's not safe for some people to come. Of course.
• 1:23:34
  Literally. Literally. It can be life threatening.
• 1:23:38
  So just bear that in mind as well. Absolutely.
• 1:23:44
  Yeah. Like, I think... It's really important.
• 1:23:49
  A couple of times when I was thinking about coming
• 1:23:51
  out, I would read online, not everyone, but some
• 1:23:55
  of the guides will say, look, if it's not safe
• 1:23:58
  for you, do not come out. Don't. Safety first
• 1:24:03
  is the most important thing. Absolutely. And
• 1:24:08
  I mean, there's plenty of time to come out. You
• 1:24:11
  got the rest of your life. You know, and just
• 1:24:15
  choose it at a time in your life where you're
• 1:24:18
  safe, you're self -sufficient, you've got a job,
• 1:24:22
  you've got a roof over your head, you know, you're
• 1:24:25
  there. When, when you are self -sufficient, then,
• 1:24:29
  then, then come out if that's, you know, your
• 1:24:32
  safest time. Because then if people reject you
• 1:24:37
  or, you know, That's it's kind of fine. It's
• 1:24:41
  not nice, but it's fine. Yeah Yeah, but is sometimes
• 1:24:48
  you don't want to be in a financial financially
• 1:24:52
  dependent on somebody and then when you come
• 1:24:55
  out to them They're like, okay. Well now I'm
• 1:24:57
  going to withdraw that financial Support, you
• 1:25:01
  know, so yeah, and then that that is that is
• 1:25:05
  really not fine On that, I think we should wrap
• 1:25:11
  up today. Kim, it's been fantastic speaking to
• 1:25:15
  you. Thank you so much for your time out of your
• 1:25:19
  busy schedule, juggling all of the things that
• 1:25:21
  you are juggling to speak to little old us online.
• 1:25:27
  Yeah, no, it's been an absolute pleasure. And
• 1:25:31
  lovely to meet you, Luigi. Likewise. I met you,
• 1:25:35
  so it's been lovely. chatting with you virtually.
• 1:25:40
  And Ray, we've chatted quite a lot, so it's nice
• 1:25:45
  to see you again. Always, always a pleasure.
• 1:25:48
  We'll keep chatting for sure, I think. If you
• 1:25:51
  ever want to come back, please do. And where
• 1:25:54
  can I send people that want to contribute to
• 1:25:58
  Same Love Shoti? Well, we're available online,
• 1:26:01
  so you can go to either our Well, it's not called
• 1:26:07
  Twitter anymore. Our X page, you can go to Instagram.
• 1:26:13
  I think we're most of the time we're on Instagram
• 1:26:16
  and Facebook, or my personal page as well. But
• 1:26:21
  yeah, so anyone who wants to help us to further
• 1:26:24
  this work, because yeah, certain people who shall
• 1:26:27
  remain nameless have caused there to be a lack
• 1:26:31
  of funding, I think globally, but specifically
• 1:26:35
  in in South Africa. So we're always happy for
• 1:26:41
  any form of support that people can offer. Thank
• 1:26:47
  you. Kaleidoscope will also be reaching out in
• 1:26:51
  that capacity. If you want to find Same Love
• 1:26:53
  Toti, you can find them on Facebook at samelove
• 1:26:58
  .toti or Instagram at the same handle. You can
• 1:27:03
  find me, Ruby Ray Liu, at Fire From Heat or TikTok
• 1:27:09
  at Heat From Fire. And you can find Kaleidoscope
• 1:27:13
  on YouTube at Echo Perspectives. You can find
• 1:27:17
  Luigi wherever you can find Kaleidoscope. Living
• 1:27:22
  in a drawer. I take him out when I need him.
• 1:27:28
  That's right, Ruby takes me out for every podcast.
• 1:27:31
  Yeah. Alright, thanks for listening. Bye.