Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Killers Amongst US: Bride sends out 'Save-the-Dates,' found stabbed 20 times, RULED SUICIDE! (episode 4)

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Killers Amongst US: Bride sends out 'Save-the-Dates,' found stabbed 20 times, RULED SUICIDE! (episode 4) · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, welcome back to Killers amongst Us,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: the production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online on the elevator,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: on the stairs in and out the front door of
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: the apartment complex. Who would know there is a killer
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: amongst us? What happened to twenty seven year old Ellen Greenberg?
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Her parents demanding answers? I, Nancy Race, this is Killers
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: amongst Us? Thank you for being with us, with me.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Stephanie Farr, investigative reporter, Philadelphia Inquirer. You can find her
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: at Twitter at Far Far r Away. Joe Scott Morgan,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: star of a brand new hit series on True Network,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Poisonous Liaisons. Tom Brennan, private investigator working with the Greenberg's
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: for justice. Doctor Angela Arnold, psychiatrist joining us out of
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at Angela Arnold
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: MD dot com. Veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor, now defense attorney.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Darryl Cohen you can find him at Cohen Cooper, Estep
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: and Allen Law Firm, and special guests Josh Greenberg, Ellen's
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: father and Sandy Greenberg her loving mother. You can also
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: find both of them at Facebook dot com slash Justice
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: for Ellen two thousand nineteen, Repeat Justice for Ellen two
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: thousand nineteen. Stephanie. I still and all homicides I've worked
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: and investigated, I've never seen this many stab wounds on
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: a person, including on the back of the neck, deemed
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: a suicide. And I actually tried a case where the
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: death was first deemed a suicide, but based on blood
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: spatter and computer searches, that theory was disproved and there
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: was a guilty verdict. So I'm very curious about how
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: the case was first ruled a suicide and procedurally what
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: happened after that. Yeah, So, according to my conversations with police,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: when they get to the scene that night, they carry
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: it as a suicide for the reasons that we've mentioned before,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: the lack of defensive wounds, the locks, the fact that
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: the fiance stated at the scene. It was only the
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: next day at homicide that all that excuse me, The
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: only next day at the medical examiner's autopsy report that
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: the case was ruled a homicide when he discovered all
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: twe of the stab wounds that Allen had suffered. At
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: that point police had already cleared the scene unless the apartment.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: People had been in and out of the apartment, and
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: so they had to scramble. The homicide unit now had
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: to scramble to start in mestigating this case again as
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: a homicide. So White ant let me understand. Stephanie said
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: the scene had been contaminated at that point. People have
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: been in and out. Correct. Correct, according to my conversation
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: with the building manager. Yes, people had been in and
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: out of the apartment after police had left it. Guys,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend Amanda Duarte. At accident,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: suicide or murder. An autopsy was performed the day after
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Ellen died. At autopsy, ten stab wounds to the back
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: of the victim's neck were discovered. The autopsy revealed the
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: proximately nineteen stab wounds and one cock wound. The seeding
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: had multiple wounds to the front of her body as
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: well as to the back of her neck. She had
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: a ten stab wounds to the back aspect of her neck.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: It's difficult to inflict those type of wounds on yourself.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: The examination also revealed that Ellen had multiple bruises over
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: parts of her body. What caused the bruising someone though
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: more relatively knew somewhere a little bit older. She could
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: have engaged in some contact sports. She could have bumped
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: into certain things could be done from a blow of
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: the fists. Contacts sports. Wait a minute, Sandy, I believe
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I recall you, Josh Jell. I mean she played softball
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: earlier in her life. But what contact sport would that
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: have been at age twenty seven? There was no contact sports.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: It was the middle of winter. Just ridiculous contact sports. Guys. Also,
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend jan Carabeo at CBS
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: three Philly. She was stabbed twenty times. Half of the
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: wounds to the back of her neck. You talk to
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: any reasonable person and they all say, what the hell
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: is going on. Tom Brennan logged twenty five years with
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: the Pennsylvania State Police and worked at the FBI's Behavioral
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: Science Unit in Quantico, Virginia. Now retired, he has worked
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: nearly seven years pro bono with the Greenberg's investigating Ellen's death.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: I said this is a homicide, but the medical examiner's
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: report says there was no sign of a struggle, nothing
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: was obviously missing or disturbed. Only Ellen's DNA was found
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: on the knife in her chest, and Ellen had no
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: defense injuries to her hands or forearms. Still, Brennan says,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: none of that prooves this was suicide. Didn't they ever
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: hear a blitz where a victim doesn't get the opportunity
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: to defend themselves. Or if you had your back toward
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: the intruder and you're standing at the sink slicing up fruit,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: you never would know what hit you. But a light
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: of now twenty stab wounds, take a listen to this.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: When the autopsy was over, the medical examiner issued a
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: ruling that directly contradicted the initial findings of police investigators,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: the medical examiner and leave it was a homicide. One
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: of the most striking things was the fact that a
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: knife was still embedded in this young woman's chest. There
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: is a significant degree of force probably needed to inflect
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: that type of wound that certainly is indicative of a homicide.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: The Emmy's homicide ruling officially turned Ellen's case into a
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: murder investigation, as the Greenbergs prepared to bury their only child.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: So Stephanie far with me from the Philadelphia Inquirer. Stephanie.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: At first, it was damed as suicide because cops apparently
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: didn't realize the number of stab wounds that Ellen sustained.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: But then after the autopsy, the medical examiner declared it
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: was a homicide. Right, So after the medical examiner declared
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: that a homicide, police have to then go back and
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: open a homicide investigation on the case. In my thirteen
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: year career in Philadelphia, this is the only instance where
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: I have seen that police actually publicly went against the
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: findings of the medical Examiner's office. So the medical Examiner's
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: office releases their homicide finding and on January twenty ninth.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: By January twenty ninth, police are telling the media in
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Philadelphia that despite the homicide ruling, authorities were leaning towards
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: suicide in Ellen's case and looking into quote in mental
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: issues she might have had. I don't understand how a
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: police officer, and I've been in law enforcement myself as
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: a prosecutor, but I certainly know my limitations. How what
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: a cop better, no cod than a medical examiner. They
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: would not to my understanding, And you know, there was
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: a back and forth, it seems, between a medical Examiner's
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: office and the police department for some time before the
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: medical Examiner's Office made the rare decisions to flip flop
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: it's ruling and label Ellen's case a suicide instead of
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: a homicide. Did the Medical Examiner's Office give any reason
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: for reversing their decision it was a homicide. No. The
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's Office gave no public reasoning to the press
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: here in Philadelphia, and to the best mile out knowledge
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: at the time, gave no reasoning to her family either,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: and police didn't explain to us either. And at the
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: time in Philadelphia, all we knew were that there was
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: multiple stab wounds. We did not know the nature and
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: extent of the wounds that Ellen had suffered that day.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: To Ellen's dad Josh Greenberg, Josh, I just at her
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: funeral there the synagogue, you divulge. This is no longer
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: damned as suicide. This is a homicide. What was the
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: look on the fiance's face when that came out? Stunned.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: Let me point out yet again, no one has been
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: named a POI person of inches, much less a suspect
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: in this case. I would like to go back for
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: a second, Nancy, if we could. Tom Brennan and his
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: investigation spoke to the Medical Examiner about this event of
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: the change. I'd like Tom to explain the conversation he
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: had with the Emmy. Oh yes, please do Tom. When
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: I first got involved in the investigation, one of the
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: first things I wanted to do was speak with the
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: apologist that performed the autopsy, doctor Osborne. Wilon Osborne. I
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: called the Medical Examiner's office, the director's doctor Sam Galino,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: and doctor Sam mcglino stated that he would not permit
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: me to interview doctor Osborne, but over time I was persistent,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: and over time, once I got doctor Ross involved, doctor
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Gallino relented and sent me an email and said that well,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: since doctor Ross and doctor Osborne are medical professionals, he
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: would permit a conference call to occur. So we had
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: a conference call and we hit. That conference call took
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: place in the Duffin County Corner's Office. President was doctor Ross.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: The Ductin County Corner Graham, Hetrick and myself. Doctor Ross
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: asked doctor Osborne a number of questions. There was a
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: lot of back and forth. Then I began asking doctor
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Osborne's from questions. My last question to him was tell
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: me why you would change the cause and manner of
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: death from homicide to suicide. And he said, well, I
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: did that at the insistence of the police, because the
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: police said there was a lack of defense. Wolds and
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: I said, does any of those police officers have a
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: degree in pathology? And with that the call ended. So
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: and that call was witnessed by doctor Ross in the
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Dolphin County corner Graham, hetrick, So what about it, Jessicot,
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: I hear you break it in, go yeah, I got
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: I don't even know where to begin with this. I
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: think the biggest question I would have is that we've
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: heard all about the cops at the scene, all right.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: I want to know what representatives from the from the
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office were physically at the scene. It's
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: my understanding that they employed their own investigators. Did anybody
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: go there and do an assessment? Because let me tell
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: you what happened. I know what the conversation was. The
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: next day after the autopsy, there was a phone call
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: that was made to the p D and there was
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: a conversation among the detectives that started with words, oh shit,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: because they realized at that moment in time that they
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: had screwed up at the scene. I agree with what
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Tom is saying here, relative to you, who are they
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: to make a determination as to whether or not something
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: is suicide or homicide? And let me tell you one
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: more thing if you like that bit. When you tell
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: police officers at a scene, whoever made this grand diagnosis
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: at the scene, When you tell them at that moment
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: in time that this is a suicide and you make
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: that proclamation at the scene, guess what you see, Nancy,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: elbows and tailholes headed for the door. Because at that
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: point their interest completely diminishes, completely diminishes. So the steps
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: that we normally take at a crime scene and examining
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: bodies and relative to evidence and at bloodstaining and all
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: that stuff, it goes out the door. So, yeah, they're
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: having a backtrack now. And this is what happened. I
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: can tell you this is this is where the proverbial,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: you know, chain got all kinked up at this point.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: There's one word to describe it, laziness. They're covering their
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: rear ends on this based on everything I've heard, and
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: there's also a particular aspect of the medical examiner findings
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: in addition to everything else, if you can imagine it,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: that has me very puzzled. Take a listen to our
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: friend Amanda Duarte. When I was assigned to the homicide
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: unit in the DA's office, I was given the blessing
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: to officially look into this file and review it. When
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: examining the crime scene photos, several things struck the prosecutor
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: as odd. She's seated on the kitchen floor, most of
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: her upper body is leaning up against the cabin entry
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: alongside of one of her nostrils. There was a straight
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: line of blood that ran from the nostril to the
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: back of the ears. No drag marks, there's no dripping,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: and so it was a straight line. So if you're
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: in a seated upright position and there's blood running horizontally,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: it's impossible. That would have been physically impossible for blood
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: to run horizontally from the nose to the ear. Absolutely impossible.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: So let me understand what's happening now. So the cops
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: say it's a suicide because they don't know they're twenty
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: plus stab wounds. They say there's no defensive wounds, even
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: though the leg and the arm on the right side
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: are covered with stab wounds, signifying to me she may
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: have curled up in a ball and continued to be stabbed.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: That's a sort of defensive wound you get on your
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: legs and arms on one side because you're lying on
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: the other side. The next day, when all of this
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: comes out, it is then ruled a homicide, but under
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: intense pressure, the medical examiner turns flips and makes it suicide. Okay,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Stephanie Farr, Philadelphia Inquirer. What happened then? Once the case
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: was ruled a homicide by the Medical Examiner's office, the
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Philadelphia Police Department then has to come back and start
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: an investigation pretty much anew according to my understanding, I
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: will just add that I believe that Ellen's body from
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: my conversations with the building manager was actually less in
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: that apartment till three or four in the morning. She
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: actually had to call police to come and take Ellen's
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: body to the medical Examiner's office. So police, after the
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's office rules that a homicide, they have to
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: come and redo their investigation. So they go through those steps,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: and one of the major things that they ended up
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: relying on for their suicide finding is a neuropathology report
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: that was supposed to have been conducted on spinal cord
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: by a very famous neuropathologist here in Philadelphia, doctor Lucy
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Rourke Adams. In that report, there's only a single line
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: in that report mentioned in Ellen's final autopsy report, and
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: it just says neuropathologist, doctor Lucy and then they spell
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: her name wrong, examined the spinal cord and concluded there's
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: no defect to the spinal cord. But when I contacted
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: doctor Rourke Adams about this report, she said that she
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: did not remember doing it and that if there was
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: no reporter or built for her services, which Guy DeAndrea
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: could never find in his looking through the case files,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: then she would conclude that she may have not done that,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: you know. So that's a huge question remaining, is that
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: there supposedly was this neuropathology report done on this section
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: of Ellen's spinal cord to determine whether the ninth stabbed
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: it and would have made her made impossible for her
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: to move, But nobody has ever seen that report. There
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: is no bill for that report, and the person who
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: supposedly conducted that report did not remember doing that examination. Well,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: speaking of the spinal corps, take a listen to our
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: friend Amanda Duarte and accident suicide or murder Guy. DeAndrea
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: discovered that a portion of Ellen's spinal cord was still
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: at the Emmy's office. When I learned that they actually
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: kept a piece of Ellen's spinal column, I said that
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: should be examined. It was around the time that I
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: knew I would be leaving the Attorney's office. Once I leave,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: I have no more efficient capacity or this file. DeAndrea
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: contacted Tom Brennan to let him know about the specimen.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Spinal column exists. It's at the Medical Examiner's office. I
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: have spoken to the chief Medical Examiner, who has given
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: a blessing bring someone in here. I contact the Medical
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Examiner's office in Philadelphia get permission to have my neural
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: forensic pathologist come in and examine the specimen. And I
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: didn't hear anything for quite some time. It was months.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Tom Brennan reached back out to me and said, we
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: have the findings. You have two scenarios. Spinal column unpierced suicide,
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: spinal column pierced murder. Through findings were when the knife
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: entered it severed the spinal cord. Well, there's really no question,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: but yet there is more evidence. Listen, the Greenberg's expert
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: discovered something else. From the autopsy photos. Not only did
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Ellen sustain multiple bruises over her body, but there were
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: also other suspicious markings. Forensic pathologists found what appears to
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: be a scratch on the neck and finger marks, and
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: there was a hemorrhage found near the throat. Neural forensic
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: pathologists said, that's an indication of man strangulation. We know
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: that Ellen had extensive bruises all over her body. We
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: don't know how they occurred, and we frankly can't explain
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: them because she was not involved in physical sports and
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: there were no other activities that we can think of
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: that she was involved in that could attribute or cause
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: those kind of injuries. I want to know why there
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: was bruising in various stages of healing. That is a
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: question I have as a mother, Why was my daughter's
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: body bruised? To you, Tom Brennan, private investigator on the
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Greenberg case. After it was flipped and determined to be
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: a suicide, what happened next, Well, that's when you know,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I I informed the Greenberg said because of all the
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: pushback we were getting put you know, from a political standpoint,
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: I said, there are some you know, we have to
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: get we have to get to the media and get
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: this out, because with the media, that's stronger than a bullet.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: So that's when I contacted several journalists who were involved
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: initially in doing stories, and I contacted Stephanie, and Stephanie
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: was the only one that that call that returned my call.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: And that's when Stephanie. I provided Stephanie with all the
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: information that I had. She went out spending a little
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: over a year validating everything that I gave her, and
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: that's when she published her story in the inquire As
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: a result of that. In the meantime, we were doing
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: the examinations with the examinations were being conducted by doctor Ross.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: I had befriended Guy DeAndrea in the District Attorney's office,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: and Guy got permission to review the file, and then
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: I subsequently I asked the Greenbergs to there was a
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: change in district attorneys. Mister Larry Krasner, Okay, you know
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: what I'm getting This all lost in the sauce. So
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: first suicide, then homicide, then suicide. Okay, in a nutshell,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: what happened next? Did it go to a higher arbiter?
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Did the Attorney general look at the state ag what
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: happened next. I got in touch with the District Attorney's
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: office mister Krasner, and he wouldn't speak to me. So
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I had the Greenberg since mister Krasner was their first
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: attorney initially when he was had his civil practice, I
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: had them asked for their personal file, and they contacted
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: him and asked for their personal file, and the sunse
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: that they got I gave it to you, which is
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: not true. Then I asked that, and then I asked
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: them to file a complaint with the State Disciplinary Board,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: which they did. The State Disciplinary Board came back and said,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: mister Krasner said he gave it to you. At that time,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: mister Krasner recused himself and forwarded the file to the
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: attorney State Attorney General's office the DAS file and the
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Attorney general his office got involved. Following that, for a year,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: or approximately a year, we heard nothing right. Prior to
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Stephanie publishing her article. Getting her article published, she contacted
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: the Attorney General's office. Stephanie far from the Philadelphia Inquirer,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: leading the charge to sign the truth alert. The media
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: take a listen to what Matt patrol I was CBS
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: three Philly has to say their attorney is using a
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: technology called photogrammatry to prove the case is a homicide.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Greenberg's legal team recreated her anatomical and physiological attributes, showing
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: it would be impossible for Greenberg to stab herself in
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: the back of her head multiple times. One of the
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: wounds was so deep it would have paralyzed her, which
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: means she could not have completed the remaining wounds. How
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: powerful is this evidence? I think it's so powerful that
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: it's clear to me that there's a murder remarking among
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: us or murderers, and ad is frightening from my vantage point.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: And the attorney also tells us that photogrammatry is not
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: the only evidence that points to Ellen Greenberg's death as
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: a homicide. Stephanie Farr, Philadelphia Inquirer, What happened then? So
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: early and on early on in my investigation, I contacted
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: the Attorney General's office and told them that I was
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: looking into this story. They told me they were doing
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: their their own investigation, but I never heard from them
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: about any finding. So right before my article was published,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: I reached back out to them to see where their
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: investigation stood, and according to the spokesman for the for
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: the AG's office, the Attorney General's Office, they provided me
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: a statement that said their office had done a thorough
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: investigation into the case and that a search history from
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Ellen's computer and records from her cell phone indicated that
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: she had, you know, done searches on her computer for
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: terms related to suicide. Now, that information directly contradicts information
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: in the in the Medical Examiner's report from twenty eleven
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: that said that investigators searched her computers and found nothing
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: indicative of suicide. So, Stephanie Farr, Philadelphia Inquirer, you're telling
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: me that at the time police revie her computer and
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: found nothing regarding searches for suicide or anything to indicate
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: she had committed suicide. But then later you learned the
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: AG says, oh, no, no, no, we found evident searches
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: of suicide exactly exactly, And they could not explain to
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: me the discrepancy there, you know, when I asked about it.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: You know, why does the report from twenty eleven indicate that,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: you know, her computers were searched and nothing was found,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: while your report seven years later, seventy years later, says
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: that things were found and according to the spokesman for
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: the Attorney General's office, he said, we cannot say if
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: anyone police or prosecutor ever looked at the computers, even
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: though it's indicated in the reports from twenty eleven that
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: he did. Back to the Greenbergs Josh, her father joining
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: us along with her mom, Sandy Josh, isn't it true
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: that you guys hired your own own expert who found
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: nothing on her computer relating to death or suicide? That
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: is true since the Attorney General was saying his thorough
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: investigation and putting such an emphasis on this, the FBI
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: had already told the Philadelphia police they found nothing. We
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: hired a forensic computer expert and they found nothing. What
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: they found, they found nothing that Ellen had looked up
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: suicide or had a fetish or interest in suicide, either
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: none hurting or hurting. So we really feel that the
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: whole thing the Attorney General did was bogus. But I
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: don't understand their motivation. And isn't it true you asked
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: and asked and asked to see the OAG Office of
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Attorney Generals report that they did the computer forensic search,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: and you couldn't get it, couldn't get it couldn't get it.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: They still haven't produced it. We this day, I'm we
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: approached the Attorney General, we had a former Attorney General
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: for the Commonwealth working with us. We offered the Attorney
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: General's office all of our information, our mountain of evidence.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: But I think something that I'd like Tom to talk
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: about is a classic pivotal meeting that he had with
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: two former Philadelphia District Attorney assistant district attorneys who now
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: worked for the Attorney General. Tom Um when I, when
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: I learned of these um findings on the searches, we
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: arranged for a meeting with the Attorney General's office, and
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: it's it's this is almost comical. The same individuals who
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: were in the DA's office at the time this incident occurred,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: or the same individuals who are now in the Attorney
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: General's office and supposedly conducted this thorough investigation of theirs. Okay,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: But in the course of things, I had a meeting
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: with the supervising Attorney of the Criminal Investigation Division for
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: the Attorney General's Office and the Attorney General's chief of staff.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: And in the in the course of that meeting, they
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: mentioned that they're finding and I asked them when when
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: was the tennis performed? They couldn't. They couldn't reply. I
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: asked them who did it? Could they identify the forensic
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: analysts for the FBI that did it? No, no response. Um,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: I asked them several questions and I didn't get a
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: response for any of any of my questions. They asked me,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: they said, why are you asking me these questions? And
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: I said, well, I know where those computers have been
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: since September of old five, so when in the hell
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: did you people conduct this examination? And they no response.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Then two days later, the former attorney general that was
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: working with us received a call from the chief of staff.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Then she said that she told this, She told the
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: attorney general, that former attorney general that she informed the
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: senior Attorney general that was in charge of the investigation
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: to supply us with a copy of their report. To date,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: we still haven't gotten a copy of that report. Isn't
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: it true? As a matter of fact, your forensic analysis,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: your expert forensic analysis, and the FBI analysis both refute
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: the Attorney General's conclusion regarding searches on Ellen's computer had
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: any obsession with death or suicide leading up to your death.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Both your independent expert and the FBI analysis are diametrically
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: opposed to the Attorney general's analysis. Is that correct? Tom
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Brennan's correct. That is correct. Let me ask you, Sandy
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: and Josh, the idea of pursuing a lawsuit over the
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: medical Examiner's suicide ruling. A Philadelphia judge ruled that Ellen's
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: family with us today, Josh and Sandy can move forward
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: with a lawsuit against the Medical Examiner's office to remove
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: the suicide ruling as her official cause of death. What
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: led you to that lawsuit? Josh Greenberg? Justice for Ellen?
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Who wants the truth? I don't know, and that's the
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: only way I can answer your question. I'm sorry, Nancy,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: it's more involved. I apologize, but this makes no sense.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: This is total bs. There are a number of simple things.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: I know we talked about technology and professional things, but
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: just some simple things out there that we didn't even mention.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: The fact that our forensic pathologists found that there were
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: two types of knife wounds, a smooth and as serrated.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: The fact that three months, three years, excuse me, three
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: months after the case was closed, somebody in the police
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: department sent the photos to another forensic pathologist, in Florida,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: and she couldn't believe that they had said this was
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: a suicide. And Tom, just by happenstance, serendipity, happened to
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: be talking to her and she told the story. I
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: don't know what else. There are other things. The note
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: in the autopsy by doctor Rourke bs. Doctor Rourke never
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: saw that. We met the fraudulent paragraph. We met with
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: the medical examiner and we questioned him, does doctor Rourke
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: the day before send in a bill and a report
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: on a case? Yes day after she send it? Doctor
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Rourke is noted, And I mean it's in the strictest
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: and nicest way I can put it. If you ask
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: doctor Rourke what time it is, it's going to be
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: part of an itemized bill. She's going to give you
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Doctor Rock bills very strictly. But it's all BS and
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: the Attorney general is BS two and Nancy, what you
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: have to understand when it comes to the technical part
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: of this investigation. Though the fiance's laptop, the victim's laptop,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: personal laptop, and her work laptop in her cell phone
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: were removed by a prominent attorney uncle the morning of
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: the twenty seventh of January, when the autopsy was being performed,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: the uncle and his son entered the apartment with the
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: guys of we have to get a suit for the
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: fiance for the funeral. But at that time they removed
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: all of those items. So in the court of law
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: anything and the police never never got access to those
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: items until the twenty nine So as far as a
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: chain of evidence is concerned, would the court accept anything
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: that came off those came off those items. Yeah, and
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: that's what the Attorney general is trying to use as rationale. Well,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: you know what, you can contest the chain of custody,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: but that does not necessarily indicate that item will be
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: thrown out of evidence, right, Darryl. I mean you can
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: contest the chain, absolutely, and that doesn't mean that that
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: contest is going to be successful. Absolutely, you can complain,
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: But what we really need is what the forensic evidence
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: says that was in the computer. Whether they were physically
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: removed the computer is one thing. Whether or not they
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: were able to bleach the items in the computer that
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: is clearly another. Well, I have a question to Ellen's mom, Sandy.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: The other side keeps throwing up a text, a particular text.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Did they say Ellen sent to you quote, I'm starting
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: the mad I know you don't understand, but I can't
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: keep living with feeling this way. Did you get a
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: text like that? I suppose I did. Did anybody ever
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: think she meant living in that relationship? I thought it
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: was I can't keep all like this. I thought it
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: meant it was in reference to how she felt on
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: the medication. Ah, I see what she means or not
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: taking the medication. That aside, that text, it could be
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: construed in so many different ways. I thought it man
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: that I can't take the relationship anymore. But it could
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: be that aside that has nothing to do with a
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: physical aspect of the autopsy and what the findings were.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: I could write a text like that in a moment
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: of anger about my husband, I can't keep living like this,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: and then the house burns, damn. But that doesn't mean
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: I struck the match? Does it? Because I wrote that text?
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: I think that's Josh, go ahead, that's it, Nancy. If
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Ellen had put sandwich boards on and walked around rittenhouse
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: square saying what this says was and then you go
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: look at the crime scene, it's incongruent that she committed suicide,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: has nothing to deal with it. So what if anything
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: can be done now, Josh, outside the lawsuit that you
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: were bringing in, what's the status of the lawsuit? Well,
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: I believe we have a court date. I believe Philadelphia
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: has tried to prevent us from having a court date
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: and they were turned down. I believe we are trying
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: to depose witnesses, like the medical examiner who makes an
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: appointment and then canceled appointment saying he has things to do.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: I believe we're being stonewalled like we have for ten years.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: January twenty sixth I'm bad with dates. January twenty six,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: twenty eleven was ten years after Ellen's death, and aside
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: from time, there's been an emotional effort, immense financial effort
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: to bring the truth out. We're not just doing this
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: for Ellen, Yes, Ellen, justice for Ellan, but there are
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: other families and other people who have suffered this type
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: of treatment. I'm going to call it from political officials.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: We don't know the why, but we know that we
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: have a mountain of evidence, and we know that a
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: mountain millions of people in this world have reviewed this
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: case as not experts necessarily and don't believe this was
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: a suicide. So we don't know why, and we don't
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: know how, but they are trying to stone Wallace and
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: we're not happen words of my wife, we're not working anywhere.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Oh how I want justice, And again let me point
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: out that no one has been named a PI person
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: of chure is much less a suspect in this case.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: No one we wait as just as unfals. And I
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: guarantee you, and that case goes to trial, I'm going
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: to be on the front road by God, Nancy Grace
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Killers amongst us, signing off, goodbye friend,