Latest / Think Twice Show / The Philosophy of Anarchism

Transcript

The Philosophy of Anarchism · Think Twice Show

0:00
Anarchism I'm not even sure it's viable in small community.
0:05
Anarchism is a good reaction to oppression, but as as soon as
0:09
you have to do everything communally I'm just not sure if
0:13
people want that. But the fact that the examples
0:16
were preceded by oppression doesn't mean that anarchism is
0:20
not a legitimate system of governance going forward,
0:23
Kropotkin says. It's not the love of my
0:25
neighbour that makes me douse out the fire that's setting his
0:30
house ablaze. It's a general solidarity I have
0:33
with other human beings. I don't think that's a great
0:35
example though. Only because your neighbour, he
0:37
still falls part of your own community.
0:39
If it was someone on the other side of town, you're not going
0:42
to run over there to help them. I would absolutely.
0:45
I don't believe you're actually black in reality doing that.
0:47
Black. Hello.
1:02
What's going on? Welcome, welcome, welcome.
1:05
My name is Benz. My name is Santa.
1:07
And you're watching things twice.
1:10
That was cold. You.
1:14
Know that is like red in the back now and today as you can
1:17
see, we're going to discuss anarchism.
1:19
Anarchism is basically the belief in a society without
1:23
rulers or coercive authority. Anarchism basically wants to
1:28
remove powers above us. They think all power above us is
1:32
oppressive or authority is pretty much oppressive.
1:36
And the way they sort of do this is to like, decentralise
1:39
authority or government, to remove government really, if
1:42
anything. And through mutual aid and
1:44
social equity. Like there's like a huge part of
1:48
anarchism that relies on the cooperation of humans in order
1:52
for it to be successful. And if you understand how I
1:56
think of humans, that's going to be a problem.
1:59
Yeah, you. Might get why?
2:01
Well, I don't jive with it. And you, man, would know where
2:03
I'm going to land. Yeah, exactly.
2:06
Yeah, I think. I think, I think you covered all
2:08
the bases there. I think a big part of anarchism
2:11
is to deconstruct power in relationships.
2:14
That is illegitimate power between an employer and an
2:17
employee or the state and its subjects, or even getting into
2:22
like family dynamics, the church and the people who go to church.
2:27
There's power dynamics in all of our lives, the anarchists
2:30
believe, on some level or illegitimate.
2:33
Anarchism is a philosophy that is maybe misunderstood because
2:41
essentially, like when you hear the word anarchy, you hear
2:44
chaos, you hear destruction, you hear like a lot of madness going
2:48
on. But anarchism isn't so much that
2:52
it's finding clarity through that sort of chaos because the
2:56
only what we understand to be the right way to live, or we
3:00
understand to be the system in which we exist, is now thrown
3:06
away with anarchism. And that's why it seems like
3:09
chaos. That's why it seems like crazy
3:12
to us. But it's not crazy.
3:14
It's why it has that quotation. Exactly.
3:16
It's functional and it's understandable, and we're going
3:19
to explain it today, or try to at least.
3:21
But in short, if anyone out there is anti government, you
3:25
might be anarchist, you might be anarchist, anti anti government.
3:29
So as as the episode progresses, I'm sure, I'm sure there are
3:32
lots of. Snow and our first question is
3:35
anarchism only viable in small communities, or can it work at
3:39
scale? I think anarchism can work at
3:42
scale, Yeah. Do you know what?
3:48
Not only do I think it can work at a scale, I think it's
3:50
actually worked at scale in the past.
3:52
And the past can be a blueprint for an anarchist future,
3:56
potentially. It's probably at this point I
3:59
should preface by saying I'm not an anarchist necessarily, but
4:03
it's not for the lack of love for anarchism.
4:06
It's just that I don't think I've done enough reading to call
4:08
myself an anarchist. But I might get there one day.
4:11
So how? How do you think that works?
4:12
Because obviously, like if someone's watching, they don't
4:16
understand anarchism to maybe the level that we do at this
4:20
point. So why?
4:22
Why do you think it would work at scale?
4:24
Well, I think it would work at scale is the examples from the
4:27
past. So there's a guy called Peter
4:28
Kropotkin, actually born as part of the Russian nobility in the
4:33
1800s. He lived in exile and he wrote
4:36
loads of books. One of the books he he wrote
4:38
that I've read is called Mutual Aid.
4:40
And part of what he does in that book is he tracks the history of
4:47
solidarity, not just human solidarity, but also solidarity
4:50
within the animal Kingdom. So he starts the book talking
4:52
about how animals work in solidarity with one another.
4:55
Then he tracks early sort of human settlements and tribal
4:59
living. And then he moves on to like
5:01
mediaeval cities and towns. And he talks about Italy in the
5:07
sort of like 12th century, 13th century.
5:09
So he talks about like Florence, Venice, these were called free
5:13
cities, right? So if I take you back to like
5:17
the year 500, the Roman Empire collapses, Europe goes into
5:20
chaos, as you can imagine, right?
5:22
Violence. Around that time, feudalism pops
5:26
up, right? Feudalism is the mode of
5:27
economy. You've got a Lord, you've got
5:29
serfs. Serfs work for the Lord.
5:31
The serfs work to eat and survive.
5:34
And that's, that's all they can do, right?
5:36
In the sort of context of feudalism, these three cities
5:39
pop up and the way they work is like you have a Guild.
5:44
So say you're a Baker, you've got a bakery Guild, you've got
5:47
like a document that explains what you do as a Baker, and
5:52
everyone else in your community has their own Guild.
5:55
That Guild then elects one or two people to go and work in
6:00
government, right? So that person who's elected
6:04
goes for like two or three months to go work as part of a
6:06
committee. That committee elects what that
6:09
town or that city does, and you work up from a Guild into
6:14
government, and then you rotate back out of government, come
6:17
back to your Guild, and this is the way the city operates,
6:20
right? And for Cropopkin, that was a
6:23
great example of how an anarchist community can actually
6:27
thrive and survive in a human context.
6:32
Now, that happened hundreds of years prior to Cropopkin, right?
6:36
And it was Mediaeval. There's better other case
6:39
studies around the world. There's obviously anarchism in
6:42
African context. Like for example, the Igbo tribe
6:45
is a famous example in Nigeria of communal living.
6:49
Like you make decisions as a community, no one's got
6:52
authority over anyone else. And you have direct democracy.
6:56
If someone, if you want to do something in your town, people
6:58
need to vote on that. Like you need to have consensus
7:02
among your town to be able to do anything.
7:05
And that way, like no one has coercive control over anyone
7:08
else. So that's a quick sort of
7:10
example as to how anarchism might be able to work from
7:14
Copopkin, from Africa. But what do you think of those
7:17
examples? I'm not.
7:18
Even sure it's viable in small communities, anarchism is a good
7:26
reaction to oppression. OK, and that is how it exists.
7:30
And even in your example, that's how it existed.
7:34
That's how, yeah. That's how it, you know, I
7:36
didn't even know he was about to give that one.
7:38
It's. Red, I give you ammunition like.
7:40
That I just gave you a freebie. You didn't answer it.
7:44
But I see it as opposition like. So yeah, I guess it can work for
7:48
a short period of time when everybody is fed up with a
7:52
system that they're currently living in and they're motivated
7:56
to change it and exist in a new context.
8:01
And so they fight and they overcome it.
8:04
And it's it's based upon conflict.
8:07
But as as soon as you have to now live in an actual society
8:11
that has to make decisions communally, has to do everything
8:18
communally, I'm just not sure if people want that.
8:21
And in the second question, we'll look at the human side of
8:25
why I don't think people want that.
8:27
But there is one like sort of contemporary example called like
8:31
Ro Java. The actual like full name for it
8:33
is the Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East
8:37
Syria. But everyone just calls it Ro
8:38
Java because. It's easier to say this is like
8:41
an example of a potentially anarchist community.
8:44
Yeah, it's more democratic confederalism, but they have
8:48
like a lot of anarchist principles.
8:50
So there's no like penal justice system.
8:53
The way they sort of face justice is the community come
8:56
together and you have the victims and you have the
9:00
perpetrators, and they discuss it amongst the family, amongst
9:03
the community. Why did this happen?
9:05
And they fix it. And as a result, they have a
9:07
really low crime rate. Do you like that part of what
9:11
they do? Yeah.
9:11
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's brilliant.
9:13
And they've got like equal, proper equal rights.
9:16
So you've got like a you've got like a women military, you've
9:19
got male military. They do set apart, but like they
9:22
also have like police and with what you said, it's similar,
9:26
like they have this sort of rotation system.
9:28
So someone gets sort of not elected, but delegated to be a
9:34
officer, I guess for for a better word.
9:36
And you can be removed at a win. So you've got, you've got always
9:41
like put the community first or the community just removes you
9:43
from. The role?
9:44
Yeah, exactly. But Ro Java was sort of created
9:48
out of conflict as well. They're currently fighting,
9:52
they've been fighting against ISIS and Turkey.
9:54
Turkey are trying to sort of encroach on their territory.
9:57
That is basically my argument that like if there is conflict,
10:00
it's it's wonderful for that, it's great for that time and
10:04
it's everyone's mobilised and motivated for a particular
10:08
'cause, right. But once, once you've finished
10:13
with your conflict, a people as motivated to feel like a
10:17
community, and I'm not so sure they are.
10:19
I I do hear that obviously like fear is a massive motivating
10:25
like emotion. And when you feel like even your
10:29
liberty has been encroached upon by a state or like a an
10:34
oppressive force in your community or you think someone
10:38
else is going to come and like inflicts like war or like
10:42
violence on you. Those two situations are like
10:46
you say do do motivate people to come together 100% I do agree
10:49
with that. But the fact that the 2 examples
10:54
were preceded by oppression doesn't mean that anarchism is
10:59
not a legitimate system of governance going forward.
11:03
It doesn't in. Isolation.
11:04
It doesn't. Yeah, in isolation it doesn't.
11:06
But then you have to like factor in mankind and what humans are
11:10
I? Hear that, I hear that.
11:11
I mean like one of the things that Kropotkin does in his book
11:16
is he documents why those three cities like failed eventually.
11:21
In the Italian case, the reason they failed isn't necessarily
11:26
like people didn't feel solidarity because they didn't
11:30
have conflict or didn't have fear anymore.
11:33
It was like a lot of it was that it was hijacked by external
11:36
factors. So like you've got the formation
11:39
of like nation states, you've got war, you've got the betrayal
11:44
of like certain classes. So like, you see those guilds
11:47
that I was talking about, certain guilds just happened to
11:51
become more powerful than others, and they were able to
11:54
hijack the political process in a way that was unnatural.
11:57
Do you know what I'm trying to say?
11:58
So in particular, it was the merchant class, The merchant
12:00
class which traded with other, like, other countries and did
12:04
long distance trade of like materials and goods and stuff
12:07
like that. Those guys became too powerful,
12:09
too rich, and they hijacked the system.
12:11
So it doesn't mean that the people didn't want anarchism
12:15
anymore. Do you get what I'm trying to
12:17
say? It was like hijacked.
12:19
Yeah, I get. That but it just didn't exist
12:21
though. Like, is this not the people?
12:23
Look at why they don't exist no more, right?
12:25
That's that's a fair thing for us to do.
12:27
It's those same people that are part of that community that made
12:29
it not exist anymore. That's fair, that's fair.
12:32
That's what I mean. Like it's not, it didn't just
12:34
happen. It's not like some came to it
12:36
from. Yeah.
12:36
But obviously like when you're talking about a mass group of
12:38
people, like a city or like a community, you've always got
12:43
certain people that like we've always got bad actors of.
12:46
Course, and those bad actors are the reason why it's not viable,
12:49
and that's basically what I'm saying.
12:51
All I'm saying is that we can't say those bad, bad actors are
12:54
indicative of how the community felt.
12:56
I get that a part of the community, but it's a minority.
13:00
And I, I, I agree with what you're saying.
13:02
Yeah. But I feel like we're finding
13:04
different endpoints. And the endpoint I'm finding is
13:06
that means that anarchism can't work then.
13:09
But I guess. What I'm saying is that we can
13:11
go back in history, we can even look at the Syrian context, we
13:14
can look at the the, the historical context.
13:17
Do it again, except safeguard against the things that failed
13:21
the last time. Like we can't.
13:23
We can't find perfection. Like, you know what I mean?
13:25
It's not of. Course, we don't even have
13:26
perfection now in current system, but what I'm basically
13:29
saying is I can't see how we're ever going to avoid that.
13:34
Yeah, but So what you're saying is that you wanted the Guild and
13:38
that set up to basically have lasted since then till now for
13:43
you to call it, but not till? Now.
13:45
OK, So what you're. Saying then not till now but
13:47
maybe like. It lasted hundreds of years by
13:49
the way, 200 years minimum. Got me there.
13:53
That's a long time. That was a long time, yeah.
13:55
Obviously it wasn't like a, it's not a linear thing where like
13:58
we're going to say it started today and ended in 200 years.
14:02
There was a bit of a like come up and then a fall.
14:05
So like it was a bit of a like roller coaster and even the the
14:11
mediaeval 33 cities I'm talking about, they weren't perfect
14:14
anarchist systems. They they still had like
14:16
coercion. You still had to like pay tax to
14:20
like external forces. Do you know what I mean?
14:22
Probably one thing that we probably haven't touched on is
14:24
what does viable mean then? Like, to me, viable is like a
14:28
system that that can run for a long period of time and be
14:35
efficient and have a happy society, right?
14:38
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, a majority.
14:39
Happy society. I would agree, yeah.
14:41
And I'm just struggling to find why the system always breaks
14:47
down then like obviously what you what you mean most welcome
14:50
back talking about 500 like that's a long time ago.
14:56
You know, I don't know what we're going to eat this, but
15:00
what we're talking about today, I don't know.
15:03
You know, that song was crazy. But what I see it as is I think
15:10
it's brilliant for a period of time.
15:12
And I just think it has its endpoint and it's not inherently
15:15
bad. And maybe even today, with how
15:18
we all feel about capitalism, it might be valuable.
15:21
Do you know what I mean? But it would have a period of
15:23
time and then we shift to something else.
15:25
So if, if I were to agree with that, like if I, if I, if that
15:28
was the case, I would call that viable, that's viable to me.
15:33
You've just described. OK, so we cannot it's.
15:35
On the same page, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:38
Obviously, we also need to bear in mind that we've talked about
15:41
two situations where it's in response to in my in my case, it
15:45
was feudalism for for Syrians, it might have been like
15:48
totalitarianism or something. Yeah, but that's not unique
15:51
though, because like if you look at like the Spanish Revolution,
15:54
yeah, which was like had a big anarchism focus in it, or you
15:59
look at the French Revolution, anarchism wasn't really
16:01
something at the point of the French Revolution, but it took a
16:05
lot of the same principles and deconstructing hierarchy,
16:09
etcetera and direct democracy. So all the examples of it having
16:14
worked for a period of time seems like a response to
16:18
oppression. Like I hear that, but why too?
16:20
Much oppression. What I was going to say was that
16:22
if we come away from Europe for a second in in Africa prior to
16:29
colonisation there, there's documented hundreds of years of
16:33
sort of anarcho, quasi anarcho like communities and tribal
16:39
living in Africa that I mentioned, the Ebo tribe.
16:42
But there's there's there's examples all across Africa.
16:45
And it's like that is an example to me of what can happen because
16:50
when we look at Europe, there's always something coming before
16:53
the thing. Yeah, like there's always
16:55
something and I'm saying like in Africa, if we look pre colonial
16:59
times, there's a long history of tribal community based living.
17:03
But community based living is different.
17:05
Yes, but it, it has anarchist principles in that you don't
17:08
have illegitimate coercive power in your community.
17:12
You've got maybe like a, a tribe of elders, you've got like a
17:15
smoke. You see those?
17:16
Elders. Yeah, that's against anarchism.
17:20
Even those elders like. I don't think we can go back in
17:22
history and have a perfect anarchist society like, but the
17:26
anarchist principles are there. Like you don't have career
17:30
politicians, you don't have people who own and dominate like
17:34
capital. You don't have people who you
17:36
have to rent property from. You're going to know, you're not
17:39
trying to say a lot of the things that like cause coercive
17:42
control in our society weren't there in Africa.
17:46
Yeah, OK. OK.
17:46
I'm with you on a. Lot of principles.
17:48
Yeah, yeah. OK, there we go.
17:53
The question to now does human nature make anarchism
17:57
unworkable? I.
17:59
Don't think it does. I think human nature is
18:02
inherently social and our predisposition is to work
18:06
together in solidarity rather than fight against each other.
18:11
A big part of Kropotkin's work is the rejection of Hobbs.
18:16
So Hobbs, he very famously said the state of man is war of every
18:21
man against every man. And what what I'm pointing to
18:25
there with the state of man is how are humans outside of the
18:29
context of organised society? If you're stripped away
18:32
governments, you're stripped away control of society.
18:35
How would humans behave? Hobbs thought.
18:38
They would behave like beasts. We'd be selfish.
18:41
Life, he said, would be brutish, violent, lonely and short.
18:45
And when I read that I just think relax bro it's not that
18:50
deep, just don't believe. That's the truth.
18:52
Just like, take it easy, bro. Do you know what I mean?
18:54
And I think that part of Kropotkin's critique I I love
18:57
because a lot of the prevailing thought up to that point was
19:01
people are selfish. People only look out for
19:03
themselves. And that causes this chaos if
19:05
you take away government, if you take away the police and take
19:08
away the army. And that's at its core why I
19:11
think Kropotkin's work was so revolutionary for anarchism.
19:15
So I think human nature actually makes anarchism workable.
19:19
If anarchism doesn't work, it's because human nature has been
19:23
corrupted by society, not because humans were born in some
19:26
way. I don't agree.
19:27
OK, it can make it workable and also unworkable and I'll explain
19:32
like my thought. Process start with unworkable.
19:34
Why I think it's unworkable is because of the fact that humans
19:40
are wired for tribalism and aggression.
19:43
OK, evolution suggests that although we lack working as a
19:47
group, we also have to fear other groups that aren't part of
19:52
our group. That is because of resources.
19:55
Because of scarcity, humans then become quite fearful, although I
19:59
do believe humans are empathetic.
20:02
They are empathetic to people they have generated bonds with
20:06
already. Generally speaking, it's not for
20:09
random people. It's generally for people that
20:11
you know and have experienced what you've experienced.
20:13
That's where. I get.
20:14
That there are examples of humans working together to
20:19
achieve something, but the overarching power that has
20:25
prevented that from truly happening is always the fear of
20:31
something being taken away, which I think is more powerful,
20:33
right? And as a result, it then makes
20:35
it kind of unworkable. I, I hear what you're saying,
20:38
but it's funny that you mentioned that people have a
20:42
predisposition to help those that they love, right?
20:45
One of the things Kropotkin says is, and I'm going to try quote
20:49
him, I'm going to get it wrong. He he basically says it's not
20:53
the love of my neighbour that makes me pick up water to douse
21:00
out the fire that's sitting in his house ablaze.
21:02
It's a general solidarity I have with other human beings.
21:07
You cannot know who your neighbour is.
21:09
You can even despise your neighbour, right?
21:11
The guy who lives next to you. But when his house is on fire,
21:14
you're going to help. And the, the sort of like
21:18
Darwinian like theory of evolution take would be that why
21:23
would you help if it doesn't help you, right?
21:27
Like, how does that benefit you? And it doesn't benefit you,
21:30
right? You might even put yourself in
21:32
harm's way, right? You might inhale smoke, you
21:33
might put yourself in danger. But I guarantee most people
21:38
would go and help their neighbour.
21:39
I agree. So how do you square that with
21:41
like the the sort of Darwinian like theory or like the
21:46
Hobbesian view that like, unless we are compelled to do stuff,
21:50
our state of nature, like our default state is to be selfish.
21:55
Like surely the two there's a conflict there.
21:57
I don't think that's a great example though, only because
22:00
your neighbour, irrespective of the fact you may not know them
22:03
intimately, say you. Don't like them?
22:06
Like say he's annoys you, like he's always talking about bins
22:08
and shit like he's annoying. He still feels part of your own
22:11
community, whether you kind of like it or not.
22:13
But one of the examples is COVID-19.
22:16
You see when they had a toilet. Roll shortage, yeah.
22:21
It's because people thought they weren't going to have toilet
22:23
roll, so they took as much as they could for themselves.
22:27
They tried to keep it for themselves.
22:29
Yeah, but bro. During COVID-19, us as young
22:32
people, we knew we weren't going to die from COVID-19.
22:35
Yeah, we stayed in our yards for two years.
22:39
Yes, for our parents, but also for the general elderly public.
22:45
I totally, I don't know. I don't know.
22:46
None of them. I totally and I did.
22:48
That for them, and I don't know if you did that for them or you
22:50
did that for. I absolutely did.
22:52
I don't know if you really did that for them.
22:54
Like like you said the whole reason was solely for that or
22:58
because you were told to do it of.
23:00
Course there's a complex. Exactly.
23:01
Is that what I'm saying? So like to say like, I only did
23:04
this because yeah, like. To.
23:05
Save these people. A big part of it is like my
23:08
parents who I was in the house with that those years.
23:10
That's that's also a big part of it.
23:17
On to Segment 3. A gang is taking control of your
23:21
anarchist community, extorting and attacking people.
23:24
You can form a militia to fight back, risking the creation of
23:28
hierarchy and centralised power, or trust in a decentralised
23:33
resistance, hoping people will organise without enforcing
23:36
authority. Which do you choose?
23:42
I'm forming A militia. Yeah.
23:45
I think you've got to protect your people.
23:48
Like, as much as we're talking about the creation of hierarchy,
23:54
and this actually touches on like, one of the things that is
23:57
tricky within anarchism, and I'll get to that in a second.
24:00
But there's a there's a present threat that needs to be dealt
24:03
with. I think you formed the militia.
24:07
I'd agree with that too. Yeah, I think you just have to
24:10
just because you have people to protect and you can try and form
24:14
the militia in the most anarchy because that works.
24:18
Yeah, sort of way possible. I mean, in, in your Syrian
24:21
example that you mentioned in segment 1, you have people who
24:24
rotate in and out of like the officer corps.
24:27
Yeah, in the Italian free Cities, people in the city
24:32
rotate on militia duty kind of. And they, you pay for like
24:36
mercenaries to, to sort of to help your, your city.
24:40
So on some level, like some anarchist communities would
24:42
already have a militia, they'd already be ready for conflict.
24:45
Like we've got to defend our people, we've got to defend our
24:48
loved ones. So they might actually have a
24:50
militia on the go. But those Italian free cities, a
24:54
big part of why they collapsed was actually war.
24:56
It was conflict. So it does feel like a little
24:59
bit of a weakness of anarchist communities because if someone's
25:03
big enough and bad enough, they can come do damage.
25:07
Yeah, do you? Know what I mean?
25:09
I mean, you mentioned French Revolution.
25:12
Like if, if you if someone really wants it.
25:16
I always think philosophy is sort of a thing where you should
25:19
employ it per circumstance, right?
25:23
It's not a universal thing for every single circumstance.
25:27
And like in an extreme scenario, I think you may have to employ
25:32
another philosophy in order to get a result.
25:35
And that's just what you have to do at this time, yeah.
25:37
It is tricky because what what this question actually gets at
25:41
is one of the problems in like anarchist conversations.
25:46
Let's say you study anarchism your whole life, you're a
25:48
professor, you know, you know what you're talking about.
25:50
Even that guy cannot say this is how we should organise anarchist
25:55
community and he can't or she can't describe to other people
25:59
what a modern day anarchist community would look like.
26:02
Because by actually saying that they are creating a hierarchy
26:05
themselves. Yeah, because now people are
26:07
listening to you and doing what you're saying and setting up the
26:11
society in a way that you said. Yeah, exactly.
26:13
And now you're an authority. Do you know what I mean?
26:15
Even if it's like a soft authority, you are still an
26:17
authority. And it's anti anarchic to do
26:19
that. And I think sometimes in in
26:22
conversations and like when I've studied anarchism, I struggle
26:26
with that because I'm not hearing an actual like this is
26:29
how it could be in 2025, you know what I mean?
26:31
And I think other people will like struggle to buy in because
26:34
you don't hear that you sort of. Have to figure out as you go.
26:36
Exactly. The community themselves have to
26:38
figure. Out the best way to live.
26:40
Yeah, yeah. And that's, that does keep the
26:42
purity of that the the anarchist principles, and you can find the
26:47
way to have direct democracy within that community, what
26:50
works best for them. But from the outside looking in,
26:53
it makes it a bit difficult to like buy, buy in and be like,
26:56
yeah, yeah, yeah. This is exactly the thing I want
26:58
for my That's that's. Kind of why it has to be from
27:02
conflict really, or like your current systems have to be
27:05
decimated and true anarchism, when there's actually a system
27:09
in place, there has to be a sort of overthrowing of that system
27:14
and then there needs to be space for anarchism to exist.
27:18
Would you say that the current system we are in in 2025 is
27:22
appropriately like defunct it's? Getting close, it's.
27:26
Getting close. This has been a mad year.
27:32
Real close. Yeah.
27:34
I think everyone's starting to realise.
27:36
It 100 percent, 100%. I think capitalism is under the
27:39
last legs. Yeah, I think so too.
27:41
Yeah, there will be some sort of revolution.
27:45
Something's, I don't know if it will happen in my lifetime or
27:47
towards the end, but there will be some revolution.
27:50
I hope so, yeah. Lovely, thank you for joining
27:54
us. I hope you got like a good idea
27:56
of anarchism and maybe we can like steal a couple of things
27:59
from them and I'll kiss because I think it's obviously good for
28:02
revolution. But see you soon.
28:05
Take care. We'll see you next week.
28:20
We're live. Yeah, got it.
28:22
Well, I'm just saying. That you just made a mad
28:25
situation. We should have about 5 minutes,
28:28
4 to 5 minutes. No, all cooked.
28:32
No, Yeah, we're done.