Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #249: Killed to Order: The Quiet Takeover of American Food, Medicine, and Minds

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Episode #249: Killed to Order: The Quiet Takeover of American Food, Medicine, and Minds · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: The Chinese Communist Party has a history of creating what are called black classes.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: They wanted to expropriate people's land, right?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: No private property in a communist system.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard for a normal person to be able to grasp mentally that people can think this way.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is just beyond even anything that I would have imagined.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so now you have a large incarcerated dehumanized population.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what sets the stage for kill-to-order organ trafficking.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everybody, it's Dr.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Cena.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have a really special interview, but I did want to give you a heads up because Joel and I consider this a family-friendly show, like a show that you can put on and you know have it aired in the house and have your children listen to it.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: But today's episode is a little bit different.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: From my own personal experience with my children, this is not an episode that I would have playing in my house and having my younger children listen to it.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: My teenager, sure, but not my younger kids.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I just wanted to, as a parent, like from my heart to yours, just give you a little heads up that you might want to review the content yourself.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is content that Joel and I feel passionate about and that we feel like would be important for everybody to know, particularly because it does relate to our food supply and our medical supply.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I just wanted to give you that heads up that this episode may be one that you want to watch without the children in the room.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome everybody to another episode of Beyond Labels Podcast with myself.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: That would be Joel Salatin, the farmer, and our favorite researcher, Dr.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Cena McCullough.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Today we have a very, very special guest.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're both extremely excited.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Cena and I have both benefited a lot from this man's um rendezvous in our lives, if you will, our relationship with him.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And um, our guest today is Jan Yekalik.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: He is the senior editor of the Epoch Times.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: He's been with the Epoch Times for 20 years, uh, New York Times bestselling author, award-winning filmmaker.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: He's the host of American Thought Leaders, his the kind of the Epoch Times podcast.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And he's written a fantastic book that I think speaks to uh the big picture is it speaks to how do you relate culturally with a culture that's very different than your own.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And where do you draw the lines and how do you build relationships with a with a culture that is in a completely different place?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And his book is Killed to Order, China's organ harvesting industry and the true nature of America's biggest adversary.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that um I think that in this this is a little different than some of our podcasts, but we only have guests on uh when we think that they can add something profoundly valuable to our insight and our conversation of how to live in this um in this uh world.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um, Sina, uh let's first of all, Jan, welcome.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh thank you for being with us.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great honor and a privilege to have you with us.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll let Sina throw the first uh question.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Jan.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I read this entire book, which for our listeners, they know how big of a deal that is.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: I usually don't read through a whole book.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was so well written, I could not put it down.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole time I kept thinking, wow, our listeners need to know this information because we are intimately connected with China, even more so than most people realized.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to get into that and break all that down.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: But first, Jan, I was shocked to learn that you weren't always like a human rights activist, I would call you.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: You weren't always an investigative journalist.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: You actually were an evolutionary biologist who studied lemurs in Madagascar.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: How did you get from doing that to this great, profoundly impactful investigative work?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: This is, I mean, it's a true honor uh to be to be with you guys.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think you both do, you know, truly remarkable and very important work, not just for America, but my home country of Canada, and frankly, for the world, right?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: I really believe that the answers to the world's problems lie in the grassroots, in what, you know, quintessentially what we know as civil society, people getting together and solving problems together and creating, you know, grassroots institutions that to deal with that, but nothing more is nearly necessary.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's I think that's the that's where the future lies.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for your work in this vein.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yes, I exactly.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I had studied to be a biologist.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I heard about this very unusual scenario where there were these two species of lemur that were appeared to be mixing, even though they had very different chromosome numbers.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Again, you can imagine like budding biologist, a guy, you know, I was planning to be some sort of biology researcher, professor, or something like this.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I just heard about this and I had the opportunity because one of my uh, you know, kind of supporters, supervisors, Allison Jolly, she had a lot of access in Madagascar.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: I got to know her through uh a friend who I was actually in in university with.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and so I it just a whole bunch of things came through.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: I was able to secure some money for it.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I ended up studying this mixing of lemurs that had very different chromosome numbers.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and that's you know, it's very rare to have when things interbreed that have very different chromosome numbers.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: You don't typically get viable offspring.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: This was uh our big question was does can this thing be really be a mix, right?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: And and and I found that yes, indeed it was, but it took a lot of work to get there and some travel to an incredibly beautiful place, which which I miss.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, that's uh unfortunately was then and continues now to be in rather rough uh uh uh by both uh uh economic, political, and uh you know uh biological shape, even though it's it's it's just it's unique in the world and unbelievable.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: So um I ended up the last time I went came back from the field, I was at a school in Alberta, at the univers in Edmonton, University of Alberta.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um I started getting very ill.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: I ended up with something called Gianberry syndrome.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you may be familiar with that.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Those in the medical professions typically are.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: Those who aren't, unless you know someone who's had it, it's it's not that commonly known.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Your immune system goes haywire and attacks your nervous system.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: I was losing control of my body, and that it basically killed my career.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: And in the process, I just had this.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, I think, given who I'm speaking to, I'll I'll share this part.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, in the throes of this, I didn't know, I didn't have it.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't, I there wasn't any moment where I was gonna die, any moment or something like that.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: But it was kind of heading in that a lot of people don't make it, some people do make it.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know where things would go, and you know, my life was a ruin.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I in the middle of that, I kind of said, as a kind of you know, agnostic, open-minded agnostic scientist, I said, God, you know, if you're up there, uh this would be a time where you you you do something, right?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, and I I promised I would give my life to service if if God helped, so to speak, not really expecting any response, but but being open-minded, I guess.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and what I very quickly uh I was introduced by a guy who had had chronic fatigue syndrome, which is a related autoimmune disorder to Gianberet or uh syndrome uh compared to Gianberry, that he had helped himself using this type of Chinese qigong, these slow motion exercises.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: And this was called Falun Gong.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and this had I didn't know, and people have typically heard of Falun Gong in the context of you know extreme human rights violations by the Chinese Communist Party against these people.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: That that's the that's the more common context that people know about it.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I didn't know anything of this.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: I just, you know, tried from a grainy DVD basically, some exercises that I was copying and on the off chance that it would help.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it did actually make me feel a little better.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I just kept doing it.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, every day I felt, I think, a little bit better.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't fully grasp it, but I saw my neurologist about two months in, and basically she told this is what she told me.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: She said, You are in complete remission.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: You're in complete remission.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I don't know what happened.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever it is that you're doing, keep doing it.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a kind of a funny, the the funny part about this, and my wife pointed this out to me uh later.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I hadn't really thought about it until because of course I tell this story to people, right?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and she said, Well, did she never did she ever ask you what it was that you were doing?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought about it and I was like, come to think of it, no, no, in fact, I I I don't actually remember that.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that apparently is pretty common uh with medical practitioners.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: There they can be very happy for you that you've had this, you know, change.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: But if it's not on the menu of possible methods that Guyan Barry can be helped with, they they they're not sufficiently curious, I guess.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's an oddity.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's just uh something that that I turns out to be pretty common.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, but for me, right, she was she, of course, she was happy.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: I but I was like, I'm healed, you know.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: I was kind of and I but I didn't even fully grasp what it was that I was doing.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I actually started spending some time with with the local Falun Gong practitioners in Edmonton.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: And one of them was uh her mother basically had come from, she was a I think she was a chemical engineer at the school, postdoc, and and her mother came from China, she had been tortured.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, she got what was she tortured for?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, she was tortured because and this is this is what she was explaining to me first.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I was asking a lot of questions, right?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: She was, well, they gave me this piece of paper uh that basically said, I renounce Falun Gong, I agree that it's evil or something like that.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: And and if I sign these, and and I I think it's the other part was I agree to help re-educate others about the error of their ways.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And if I sign this, they would let me go.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: But if I don't sign it, you know, this is what they did to me.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't sign it, and this is what they did to me.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Horrible, horrible things that I won't recount here.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: So the the it it blew my mind, okay, because my parents, see, my parents had come from communist Poland.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: They escaped in the around 1970, okay?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: And they explained to me communism is bad.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I learned about that and and I kind of knew it, but but I didn't, I at until this moment, I didn't fully grasp it, okay?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because, but this moment, this woman's explaining this to me.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just thinking, what?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: How is it possible that you know you're incarcerated, you're being tortured, and all you need to do is sign a piece of paper to go away?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: Clearly, there's there's no justice here.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's what's going on?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then it just, I had this, and I always get the shiver.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: I said, I can't say I'm getting it right now.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: I get the shiver up my spine about this moment because it just dawned on me.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like I've like this bolt went through me, and I go, oh my God, this is communism.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: This is the system, this is how it works.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about justice, it's about control, it's about coercing people, it's about controlling their thing.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: All this stuff, right?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: That I didn't fully grasp, different bits and pieces that my parents had tried to teach me about.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I was, you know, of course, as a kid, we kind of resisted some of it and some of it stuck.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: But it I all got it.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I understood at this moment, one, what this was, that this is a very bad system and kind of how it worked at a deeper level.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: And the other part was that part of my service would need to be helping these people.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's actually what pulled me into the human rights sphere uh pretty quickly.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: I actually had, I was a good, I was good at writing uh grant proposals, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: This is why I was able to do all this work, right?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: That I was able to bring money.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Generally, when you go to a university professor with money, they're very eager to work with you.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: So so I was able to kind of do it, do do what I wanted.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: But I was able to use that ability that I had to write well to actually write torture reports for the UN special mechanisms.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: There was a guy, I remember in 2005 when I was at the UN Human Rights Commission on the NGO side, there was a guy named Manfred Novak who was a special rapporteur on torture.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: And he he would he he would collect torture reports.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: And if there was a credible one, and I would basically take stuff that had been translated into Chinese and kind of reorganize it into what you what I call UN speak, right?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: And and this, this I'm not a huge fan of a lot of the things the UN do, but these special mechanisms actually did really good work because he would send this information to the Chinese mission, and the Chinese mission would look and say, oh, this is total lies.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: The person's in perfectly fine shape.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that we've incarcerated them, but it's because they're evil, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: But and and but the thing that would happen is they knew that an international rapporteur would knew about this person.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then the pressure, the torture, whatever it was that that person was experiencing would lessen and we could save a life that way.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I'm very grateful for his for for that man's work and other people who have done done this job.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, I also got very disillusioned that year when I was at the UN.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: That actually ended up taking me to Thailand and China and it and and introducing me to the Epoch Times because I uh I it was one of the very few media that would write honestly on this issue, right?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: It was in fact, it was founded by Felangong practitioners to to challenge this you know crazy narrative at the time that America was going to liberalize China by pumping tons of cash in there, right?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And anybody who actually worked on the ground on human rights in China knew that that was a falsehood way back then.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, imagine, right?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: For exercising what we call our First Amendment rights in America, they were actually torturing and killing people for doing that.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: That cannot be a liberalizing system.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: And we didn't, I didn't fully grasp at that time that it was actually totalitarian.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't even understand the difference between authoritarian and totalitarian at that point.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: We can we can examine that a bit.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: But that's a very, I hopefully that's not too long uh a version of the story of how I kind of got into all this.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh, Jan, uh the the thought that strikes me as you as you went through that that quick kind of autobiography trajectory is that it's all it it seems almost when you encounter when you encounter something that's this um I mean you can say evil, you can say uh uh abusive.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: It it's hard for uh it's hard for a normal person to be able to grasp mentally that people can think this way.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it it's so it's so foreign, it's so out of our uh spiritual philosophical box that it's just hard to conceive that are you are you kidding me?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean the response is no, you th this can't be.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's so outrageous that it can't be.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and and we all have, I think um we all have a kind of a um an insulation protective mechanism in ourselves because it's just too um disturbing to uh agree that this could that this could be.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Excuse me.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is that is that um I I've been I've been out in uh sawdust.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've been out on the sawmill and uh so I got sawdust all over my shirt here.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um is that is that fair to is that something that you encounter that that people are just almost incredulous because because we can't we can't bring ourselves to believe that this could be.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so okay, so much I could talk about this, okay.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much I could say about this.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: But first of all, remember this was like a 95-5 issue.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like most people what left, right, up, down, Republican, Democrat, whatever, everyone believed this narrative, right?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: That we were gonna change China by putting a lot of cash in there.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: How did that happen?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, but they it was very, it was obviously, you know, very carefully crafted propaganda, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: And they had been cultivating these financial relationships, right?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's this famous Upton Sinclair quote, which a lot of people ascribe to Mark Twain because it's so witty.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: But basically he says it's very difficult to get someone to understand something when their paycheck depends on them not understanding it, right?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: So is it this whole thing?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: There's this whole kind of dimension, right?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: There was a lot of build financial ties.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: This was actually part of the plan, by the way.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the guy that started the Felangong persecution, Jang Zemin, the dictator at the time, he he his job in the past had been a handler of the barbarians, so to speak, right?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Someone that that would that would handle them and basically like kind of bring people along.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that there's there's that whole dimension, okay?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so then there's the part what what I just told you, right?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard to, it was hard for me to imagine that that they're just torturing someone for no good reason, right?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just like it's a weird quirk in our psychotic.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: There's no like there's no reason.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's no legitimate reason.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: You just sort of imagine if something's being done to someone, there must be some legitimate reason.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: You that that's kind of in the back of our minds, right?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: And now that's I couldn't even understand that.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: But now imagine I'm talking about this, you know, kill to order industry, right?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Which is a very extreme form of organ trafficking, which frankly, I hope at some point you let me explain how it works because it's it's very, again, it's very difficult to grasp what it is, right?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: I would talk to people, Joel, uh uh, about this, and they would mentally leave in the middle of conversations.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: This is like 2006 when I kind of got hit over the head with the evidence and realized it was real.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'd heard kind of rumors about something like this.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to believe them, right?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: And but I would talk to people about it and literally I could see the lights kind of go out, right?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and I and initially I was really frustrated by this, right?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: But after a while, I kind of sympathized because uh, you know, it is horror.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: It is horror, right?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I I'd already been somewhat desensitized.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Listen, I was putting together torture reports, right?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and these were like detailed things.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: I knew who did it, where it was happening, how long, how many times.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, some of I'm not gonna tell you, I even makes me feel a little ill thinking back to some of it right now.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: They would do terrible, terrible things.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, one I just one example which I can describe, but you can kind of imagine the horror, is like they would take a w they would take women and strip them naked and throw them in an all-male jail cell overnight, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that would be with the implicit understanding you can do whatever you want in there, right?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, just that, just that in itself, right?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Using rape as a form of torture, right?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not even describing to you, you know, the details of some of the machinery they used and all sorts of crazy stuff, right?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I was already desensitized a little bit to to to this stuff, but it's still, it's still it was still hard to fathom.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: So can you walk us through the the organ harvesting that's happening?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because um and and this ties into the um Falun Gong that you were talking about, right, right?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's tying directly into it.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And they're actually some of the people that they're harvesting organs from.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I want people to keep that in mind as you're explaining the situation in China, and then we'll tie this back to why this is important for us as Americans to know this.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: But keep in mind that this practice that you learned that healed you from this, you know, what could have been a really devastatingly dire condition is the same practice that people over there are being killed for, that the Chinese government is calling a cult.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'm not mistaken, it's legal to just kill them without having ramification over there.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not exactly legal, but it it works like in tr in China, see, the law doesn't mean very much because the communist party's dictates always supersede the law.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: That is the that is official.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: So if if the communist party has a dictate were to eradicate a group, that doesn't necessarily mean kill everybody.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: That means re-educate them, make them compliant, right?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever, right?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: That means that means that any laws that would prevent you from being able to do that become superseded, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's just that's just how that system works.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually a very important point.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: We could talk about this later, but it that's a unique situation in communist societies.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: There's this, there are people that have their official roles.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: There's like a there's uh, you know, uh uh there's official government roles that people hold.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like, for example, um the chairman of this, the state chairman would be the kind of the best translation for the title of Xi Jinping in the government.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Government.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: But that's not the source of Xi Jinping's power.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: The source of the Xi Jinping's power is that he's the he's the leader of the Communist Party.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: And for example, the military, a lot of people don't know this.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: The People's Liberation Army, which the name I hate because you know it's not people's and it's not liberating anybody.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's actually the party.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: That that that military is the military of the Chinese Communist Party.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the military of the country, right?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people don't know this, right?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it was it would be like a political party having a military with the biggest in the world, right?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, jumping back to this forced organ harvesting scenario, okay?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's this unique, I argue, and I think it's pretty clear that the the the Falangong persecution and the way it went down created the unique circumstances of being able to create this killed to order industry, which is also unique in the world.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it starts.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first of all, let me just explain how it works in a normal system, okay, where there's transplant in the US.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Let's say I need a new heart.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: Someone has to have a catastrophic accident.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Typically, it's a car accident or a motorcycle accident.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then that person has to be not completely dead.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: If there's no more circulation in the body, you actually can't transplant from that body anymore.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: The organs degrade very quickly.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it has to be a very specific kind of accident where there's still a little bit of circulation.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then an ethics team, that person has to end up at a hospital.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: An ethics team has to look at this person and say, yes, this person is actually dead, right?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because you don't want to transplant from someone that has a chance of coming back.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: We actually we've, and another thing to talk about is we've decertified two transplant systems in America last year because they were too aggressive in deciding people were dead.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to be careful about that.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then on top of that, our bodies reject foreign things.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: They eject, you know, foreign objects, including organs.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: So to control for that, we control for blood type, match it, tissue type, the histology, match that.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: The size also needs to match.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: The whole sort of picture here is that the supply, because you need to find exactly the right match, right?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: In all these different ways, the right fit, the supply is always a lot less than the demand.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: You have this one person, the accident happens, there's one person, and there's this field of people waiting for that heart transplant.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's an algorithm these days, it's an algorithm that's used to decide who gets to the front of the queue and who gets it based on compatibility, based on how long they've been in line, all sorts of things like that.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's a normal system.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: In China, it works in the exact opposite way.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll and I'll explain that in a moment why I say that.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: But there's a few pieces of the puzzle that I have to add before I kind of give you the whole picture.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Number one is that in China, they have this history.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: The Chinese Communist Party has a history of creating what are called black classes.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: A black class is a group that's designated as the regime designates as an enemy.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: One of the first uh black classes were landowners.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: So they they wanted to expropriate people's land, right?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: No private property in a communist system.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: But there were all these people that own the land, so you have to take it.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Typically, people aren't going to be like, hey, yes, all of a sudden I am a big communist believer, right?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: And here's the land.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: They're not going to do that.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: So you may have to take it.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: So if you do that, they also have friends, and those friends might turn against you, right?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: So what how do they deal with that?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: They pushed mass dehumanizing propaganda through the system because they control one of the things in communist science, they always control all the tools of information dissemination.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's one of the key things they they grab at right at the beginning and control fiercely.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: So they said these people are less than human.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: They said you mentioned the cult word.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: They said these people are cult members.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: They said they uh, you know, uh some of the things I don't even want to repeat, but basically they said these people deserve your contempt.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, they're lesser than you and they're dangerous.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and then and they push this.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there were 500,000 individual pieces of propaganda in the first year to this effect.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: They're vermin, okay.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so what this does is it activates kind of a quirk in our psychology as human beings, which allows us to go along with bad things being done to people, be it desensitized, bit go along, and in some cases even participate in, as happened during the Cultural Revolution.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Now remember, they did this with many different groups over during the Cultural Revolution.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was like the intellectuals and the artists of the traditional arts and things like this.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: In 1999, the Falun Gong became the newest black class.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Falun Gong was a system, these are people that practice truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, these are the core principles.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's these slow motion exercises that you could think of as qigong or like a type of yoga, Chinese yoga, okay?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: And these things work together.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the the other thing that's really interesting about Falun Gong, and this actually speaks to this cult question which you raised earlier, right?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: Is it it's actually kind of works in a way almost the other the opposite of that, because there's a lot of teachings done by a man named Li Hong Zhu put together, like voluminous teachings, but there aren't a lot of rules.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually unbelievably self-directed.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the rules might, you know, things that all Fion Gong practitioners agree on.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's no enriching yourself from it.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you're not allowed to collect money around it.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: There's no hierarchy.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no leaders.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's it's a you your growth in level, your rising of your level is internal.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: You measure yourself against yourself and your progress.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's no worship of the teacher or the master.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes people have that need, but in Falun Gong, that isn't something that you do.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: You follow the teachings.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's no even roster, you don't join anything.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: What makes you a Falun Gong practitioner is living the teachings, right?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: There's a there's a few other things like this, but what and another thing, actually, I don't get to mention this very often, but this is what's really interesting.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: If I let's say you're a great Falun Gong practitioner and I just want to copy you guys, you know, and I I think you guys probably actually practice truthfulness, compassion, tolerance pretty well, both of you, for what I know, okay.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't be allowed, okay, to copy you.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: I can be inspired by you.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: I can notice some things about what you're doing and and and and and and gain some ideas from it, but I can't copy you.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: I have to find my own path through the teachings and apply them, right?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: And when I thought about all this, it just fosters a really interesting amount of agency in people.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, in a society, in a communist society, which is totalitarian, which doesn't like that.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, this is just part of the, and I this dawned on me only many decades after I started with all of this, like just having thought about it a lot, right?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this actually featured into why, how this all happened.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because so now getting back to uh the Fengong persecution beginning, right?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: They notice there's 70 to 100 million people, they do a survey, 70 to 100 million people doing this practice, grassroots, right?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: 10,000 practice sites in Beijing alone, people outdoors.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's no houses of worship or anything like that, right?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's just people getting together in parks or in people's apartments or whatever, right?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: So the Jiang Zemin, the dictator, decides to crush it.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: He says, We're gonna eradicate it.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: And for the first time, perhaps, in in the history of communist China, the Felongong resist being re-educated at some significant scale.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: Some large number of people just say, I'm not evil.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm not gonna agree that that land is evil.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm just bringing back the landowners, of course.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: That wasn't the issue with Gong Gong, but but they I'm not gonna agree with you, the crazy things you're saying about us.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, no, I'm I I practice truthfulness, compassion, tolerance.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm about.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, what they did was they started incarcerating mass numbers of them.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, maybe a million people.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: In 2005, the State Department estimated that about half of all the people in the re-education through labor system in China were Fengong practitioners.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: The entire system has a capacity of millions.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, of all the black jails, re-education through labor, prisons, all of it together.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so now you have a large incarcerated dehumanized population.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what sets the stage for kill-to-order organ trafficking, because they start blood typing and tissue typing and organ scanning these people and they create a database.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: And now, if I'm a wealthy transplant tourist with very loose morals, okay, I can pay my hundred or two hundred grand.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: I show up and they go, uh-huh, let's look in our database.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: And because there's so many people in the database, that perfect match already exists, right?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you can see how this is the opposite.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: In a normal system, it's the donor that's the kind of lone wolf, and there's all these recipients waiting.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Here, the donor, the recipient shows up, and there's all these so-called donors waiting.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: They're not really donors, right?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: At least not in the correct sense of the word.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: They're innocent prisoners of conscience, ready to be shipped and killed to order on demand for that person.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's how the system works, and that's why it's unique in the world.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, and the fact that nobody really did anything about this for about 15 years or so when they started in around 2000, they added a second group, the Uyghur Muslims, which you may have heard about.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very isolated group in the northwest of China.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: The whole area up there is ran as a police state.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: In that country, in that part of the world, they've actually started blood typing and tissue typing people in their homes.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: They did, they dehumanized them, they incarcerated over a million of them.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: But then, since the whole area is basically under police control, they can get these, they can build this database out of people's homes.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we're talking about.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and these uh so many questions here.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so these Fulang um, the the Falun Gong practitioners, they're actually very good candidates for organ donation because of their healthy lifestyle, correct?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and this is this is my my own experience with it was this kind of amazing, I mean, almost miraculous health benefit, right?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: That that I got from, but a lot of people, this is part of why it grew so quickly, was there was a lot of a lot of people experienced health benefits.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: And of, and also there's this thing where you generally, as a Falun Gong practitioner, you won't generally put kind of bad things into your body.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: So people don't drink, don't smoke.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it it's subject to your own understanding of the teachings, but like I I I really haven't met many Falun Gong practitioners that that do a lot of those kinds of things.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, products or whatever.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think you refer to this as um transplant tourism, where there'd even be people, it's my understanding from maybe the United States that get wind of you know this transplant tourism system, and they will actually go pay and go to one of these.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think those are done in military hospitals, usually with military doctors.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: So they'll fly out there and get a transplant, right?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: That and they may not even know, they may not even be aware that it's coming from one of these people who have been imprisoned, you know, with with no even reason to imprison them.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is that is that a correct understanding?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell Well, the incredible thing is one of the pieces of evidence we have from the early years is actually a book called Larry's Kidney, which was written by a guy who was a cousin, I believe, of a guy who needed a kidney and went to China to get it.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: And in the book, it's actually becomes obvious as you read the book that that they're aware that someone's being killed for this organ, a prisoner.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: And they're also aware that the official line, which is that it's a death row prisoner being killed, might not really be the case, right?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: That it might be something worse.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really, it's a really strange book in this respect.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: It was actually very well reviewed, again, extremely bizarre because it's sort of a it's it's a confession of being an accomplice to murder, right?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, right, uh, of sorts.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: And there's actually a woman, I write this into kill to order, who proposes a type of like she just looks at existing statute on how you could prosecute people who go and get organs in this kill to order type way.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: And she uses Larry, the Larry's Kidneys book as the evidence for a prospective prosecution, right?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: That that that could be run.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: But it's just it's the here's the the thing, right?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like clearly, the neither Larry nor his the the author of the book, you know, sort of imagined they were really doing something terribly wrong in this, right?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: Which is really just kind of weird to the point that they got it published.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: Nor did the publisher, not the nor did the editor, you know, it took it took some time, but and no nor did the reviewers who said this was a great rambunctious journey into China or whatever it was, right?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of crazy, right?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: That that that things like this can exist.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: It it's it's like the epitome of casuistry.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, ca casuistry is uh ends justifies the means, uh, in in in debate.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's one of the words that we use.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um and you know, the guy, the guy that got a kidney and he got a longer life.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so uh you know, the the good the good outweighs the bad.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, that's that's kind of the you know, in in the balance sheet of justice.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you you can make you can make a case for there's so much good from this that it I mean, I mean, obviously I'm not agreeing with it, and it's a very warped, it's a very warped sense of of justice, but um that's the problem with cadestry.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh ends doesn't justify the means.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh means means are part of the formula that to determine, you know, no no nobility and righteousness and sacredness and all sorts of things, you know, on on your way to a means.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if the are on the way to an end, and and if the means are horror, um it's it's not good that you end up at a good place, even.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it it's a it's a very strange thing.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the themes in my book is this distinction between what we what what I would call Hippocratic medicine or a Hippocratic approach to medicine and what's called utilitarian bioethics.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: Where the Hippocratic medicine, of course, is you know, the do-no-harm model, where as a medical practitioner, I look at you and I see the totality of who you are, and I try to understand who you are.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: And if I'm gonna make an intervention, if you need one, I'm gonna try to minimize the harm that that intervention requires to save your life or to help you, right?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's it's a very specific way of looking at the world, right?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: The other way, uh, and on and this is it gets very interesting.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, as I was writing this book, I realized a whole bunch of things about utilitarian bioethics.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: But utility that's basically the greatest good for the greatest number approach or greatest happiness for the greatest numbers, another way it's described sometimes.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so you can imagine this sort of the the righteous, I say that in quotes, utilitarian bioethicist, because I don't, I've come to believe it's not a righteous way of looking at things, uh, is uh thinks to themselves, well, if I can really help the whole, the most, if most people will meaningfully benefit, it's okay to sacrifice a few for that purpose.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now, here's as I was, and I've been thinking about this a lot.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: There's a man named Wesley Smith who's written on it extensively in a book called Culture of Death, which I only got fairly recently.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: I learned about him in the context I was looking at this medically assisted suicide or euthanasia, but it speaks very, very directly to this, to this particular issue, right?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: It dawned on me as I was looking at utilitarian bioethics in a different context that have you ever heard to make an omelet, you need to break a few eggs?
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: Have you heard that?
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so that's typically attributed to Stalin, okay?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: This is Stalin or perhaps Walter Duranti, that's another attribution, explaining to how to get the great glorious utopia, there might need to be some human attrition.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it just and I again, I had this moment of just that flashed through my mind thinking through all these things together, because that act statement is actually quintessential utilitarian bioethics.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because in a communist society, you see the greatest good.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: This is what the party sets the greatest good, and the greatest good is the survival and supremacy of the communist party.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: And this is why you always get atrocity in communist societies, by the way, why the Chinese Communist Party is the greatest killer, I think, uncontested in the history of the world.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: But but but here's the crazy part, right?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's just it how does this apply in an in an ethical situation?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, someone has to decide what that greater good is.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so you kind of have to understand a system perfectly.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: This is the problem with this kind of expertise, right?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: You in a way, you're just you're gonna be playing God.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's this way of thinking, right?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: And especially if you get it wrong, right?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you'll be you'll you'll recognize this phenomenon, right, of utilitarian bioethics being applied in the West in all sorts of ways.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: If you if it allows you to justify, for example, lying to people about things in order for the greater good, because you're seeking to accomplish a particular end, which is for the greater good, but maybe that end isn't really for the greater good, right?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, as in like obviously in the communist system, the greater, you know, the survival and supremacy of the communist society being the great, that's insane, right?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: But that's how those societies work.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I I kind of in this process I realized that that that utilitarianism, there is one example, there was one exception.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: This dawned on me too, in a way.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: If you're in the military and you're a medic and you have a triage situation where you you have all these people on a battlefield, they're dying, and some of them are gonna die, and you have to pick, then you play God.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's what you're doing, and you put the black marks on the foreheads of the people you're not taking, and you do your the best you can.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: And in that situation, you're being utilitarian bioethics, is you're deciding who's gonna live and who's gonna die for the great and the greater good being you try to save the people that you that you think you can save, right?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: But but that's not normal life.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: We shouldn't be making decisions like this, right?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: And in in normal life.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I I've come to the realization that it really for medical bioethics to work, we really have to have this foundationally Hippocratic approach where you you really each medical practitioner considers the individual and tries to do the best for that individual person, whatever their scenario, because otherwise we're kind of creating these value judgments, right?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: And in effect, we're dehumanizing people.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what strikes me, as you have, if you've explained this so articulately, what strikes me is the American the American system is all about uh protecting the minority, but protecting the you know, the lunatic fringe, the you know, the the protecting the ability of a person to um to represent something that is not a majority view.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: That that is that is quintessentially the American Bill of Rights to protect the um the survival uh of the uh of the minority.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, uh in his uh wonderful book um about permaculture, Peter Bain uh has a wonderful little sentence there.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: He says, in times of epochal change, you'll appreciate because he uses the word epochle.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in in times of epochal change, the most important thing to preserve is the is the right of the minority view.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because that that's where that's where true solutions come from.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh a hundred percent.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Again, you're giving me shivers up my spine, right, when I think about it, because this is, I mean, this the whole American system, right?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: This is this this republicanism, right?
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's to it's basically to protect our rights from the tyranny of the majority, which can happen in democracies, right?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's these protections that are so critical.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's why it's so scary that when those when those protections are encroached upon.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, again, so the communist China, right?
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is why I this is my point of the book, like the second part, it's the true nature of America's biggest adversary, right?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: They are the quintessential example of of the opposite, right?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: Where it's the the the dictate of the party reigns supreme and oh and is is actually overcomes everything else.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever the need is of the party in a given one, that's what people have to agree to.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: If not, well, there will there can be hell to pay if it if it matters.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's it and so this kill to order system, this is not fringe.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: In communist China, it's actually what you will get, right?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's quintessential utilitarianism in play.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, and I don't know if you remember, there was this hot mic moment uh back in September, Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un, and Tian Min Square.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: They're talking, they get caught on a hot mic.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'll paraphrase super quick, okay, what they say, but she says to Putin, when we're 70, we're just babies.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: Putin responds and says, through continual organ transplantation, this is a paraphrase, we can even achieve immortality.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: Through continual organ transplantation, we can achieve immortality.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: And she says, We believe we can reach 150 years, or our target is 150 years.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: We might be able to get there.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so this was really a crazy moment for me.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, a lot of people are calling me because they know I'm into talking about organ transplantation in China.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but but imagine this, okay.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: In China, what this moment explained to me was that if you're a Chinese super elite, you have unlimited access to organs to you in perpetuity on demand.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: They have an elite longevity project, which has a target of 150 years.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's called Project 981.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, they say that they people live 16 years longer that are part of that.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is a super, super elite project.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that's true.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: Again, Chinese numbers you have to take with a grain of salt.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: They have a propaganda purpose primarily.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: Secondarily, they may have a reality orientation.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's always you know possible, but but never never the purpose of providing those statistics.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: But here we have a situation where the forced organ harvesting, I only realized at that moment, this is funny how we compartmentalize things in our minds, that this elite longevity project was a centerpiece, that the forced organ harvesting was a centerpiece of the elite longevity project.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: So this is what we're talking about.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: And a former uh state counselor who lived to be 108 years old.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, the desire was to live to be 150, um, which I thought, wow, this is this is just beyond even anything that I would have imagined.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like we talk about health all the time on this show, and like, how do you live to, you know, how do you live well to 100?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we're thinking of, you know, clean food, clean water, herbal medicine, but it would never have crossed my mind, oh, I'll just take organs from, you know, some imprisoned person.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like that leap is so huge, which is why, you know, it's a good thing that your book is so well written and like easy to read, because I may have put it down, because it's so it's so heavy and it's such, it's a lot to take out, it's almost like a cognitive dissonance that comes over you because you're wondering how could this even be real that this is happening?
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how does somebody even get to that mindset where they even think that I am more important than the person sitting next to me?
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so much so that I can have that person killed to get my, to get organs from them so I can just live longer and longer and longer.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's so foreign to the to the American psyche that I know we keep harping on this, but it's true.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like reading your book, it was a perfect timing for me because we have we're right on the cusp of our of America's 250th birthday.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, you know, we have so many problems here in America and we complain about the system, and you know, there's things that all of us, Joel and I in particular, as libertarians, things we'd like to change about the system, you know, and we want more freedoms.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but at the end of the day, I walked away from reading your book with a profound sense of gratitude for what we have here in America amongst all of our complaining, you know, and all of our, oh, it's so bad here, and we're all we're we're oppressed and whatever.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying that people don't feel that way and that they aren't justified to feel that way, but seriously, when you consider what's happening in China alone, we are so blessed to be in this nation.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that is that is one of the things I walked away with most.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh like I walked away with tears in my eyes many times, you know, putting the book down and just hugging my kids and being like, we are so blessed to live here.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's not take it for granted, you know.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so here I have I have be I don't want to run out of time.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: I have several questions left for you.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: And one of them is um I'm gonna I'm gonna combine these two quotes into one, because I think these are related.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: Two really impactful quotes from your book.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: The first is Western elites and Western media are being steadily co-opted and made complicit in the CCP's crimes against humanity.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, wow, they're being co-opted and made complicit in these crimes.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I want you to talk about that.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's related to here when uh we are talking about global implications, like what are the implications for Americans, for example?
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you said uh CCP-inspired Marxist ideology is infecting, corrupting, and orally debasing Western societies at an alarming rate, and the true nature of it is going unnoticed.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: So can you unpack that a little bit for us?
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, these are profound, you know, really out there bold statements.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: So this is um okay, first of all, I'll say, you know, I have a whole chapter in the book committed to explaining how the Chinese Communist Party makes both us here, right, but also even the Chinese population or any communist societies in general make their own populations complicit.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very important part of operational communism.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: Not gonna be this is worth a whole podcast, frankly, right?
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: This this this this part of this this discussion.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, one of the ways in which this is done, right, is by creating um basically strong financial relationships and partnerships.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: That you mentioned media.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um part of the way that it's done with media is that there's a, you know, if to work in China, actually, this was very interesting.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: Just a couple of days ago, a New York Times journalist got kicked out of China, basically.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh there I mention New York Times because New York Times has covered the whole Falun Gong thing very poorly since 2001, when you know Salzberger and in with a whole bunch of people in tow went to China and interviewed Zhang Zemin and you know got New York Times unblocked.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know what happened in the conversation.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: I can't speak to that, but I do know that they've just covered it very poorly and the forced organ harvesting, you know, barely got a mention.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that was only when a certain journalist kind of heroically, I think, kind of made them do it and shame them into doing it, and then had to leave the company soon afterwards.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: But but that's that's a whole thing.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: But basically, anybody working in China, that to be fair, right?
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: Not you have to make a deal with the devil.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: And the deal with the devil is that you just don't cover certain topics, right?
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: And if you do, you just don't get your visa again.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's it it you can understand the difficulty in making that decision because you want to have access.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: On the other hand, inadvertently you become partially a propaganda organ for the regime by, you know, through select, just even by the things that you're allowed to choose to cover, right?
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know you you you're gonna get you're gonna get booted.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I saw people commenting on this New York Times Journal.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: The journalist actually was gonna cover, uh, I think back in 2021, they tried to cover uh uh a story of someone kind of speaking out in Hong Kong.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I think that story got killed ultimately.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, but but basically you're just uh they create, they make it, it's an impossible situation, right?
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: Where they kind of they they're and and of course, never mind the media now that where they uh you know all the big media, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, carried these giant supplements of of from state basically pure Communist Party propaganda inside with a little mark that said, This is sponsored content or something like I can't remember.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a while since they've carried them, I think, right?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: But um, but this so this, I'm just giving you a picture, right?
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: So there's these financial incentives, there's a kind of a blackmail uh of sorts happening um on the media side, but on the sort of corporate government side, I mean, you know, part of it was just believing this thing that we're gonna change China.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: And you can kind of imagine the um the handler, right?
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_02: The handler will tell you of the barbarians, the barbarians being us, right?
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: The handler basically says, hey, look, you and me, we're working to change China.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna make it a better place.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_02: And your contribution, your investment is helping that happen.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: Look at all the great stuff we're doing.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: By the way, you're making good money.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm making good money, but just don't raise too much of a fuss or those hardliners, they'll come back and crack down on the great stuff that we're doing and won't be able to do it anymore, right?
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and we won't be able to create the great change that you're doing.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: And now you're kind of so you're now once you're in the financial relationship, right?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: And we're talking, you know, really, you know, I Apple in China, uh, Patrick McGee, you know, he uncovered that there was one point when Apple was investing 80 billion with a B uh annually, like bigger than the they were investing more than the entirety of the Marshall Plan of the US and Europe, you know, in China in a variety of ways.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you when you when you build these kind of deep, deep financial ratios, it's very hard to unplug because you know you're it's basically rocking the boat, right?
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, uh, and of course, this is not just we're we're and and when it comes to organ harvesting itself, my God, we've trained some of the surgeons.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: We have financial relationships with the hospitals and universities, we provide some of the technologies and the solutions that are used to do the organ transplantation.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: There's all sorts of ways in which we're involved that we don't, we really shouldn't be.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't, you know, it even if you're someone who doesn't just let the Chinese do whatever they want.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say, you know, it's the communist, it's not saying let it the Chinese do whatever they want, because most Chinese do not want what the Communist Party is delivering for them, right?
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_02: It it would work out much better if they could just kind of have a little more agency and figuring things out, you know, incredibly hardworking, entrepreneurial, you know, thoughtful people.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, the dissidents are a testament, the many millions of dissidents are a testament to that.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: But uh let's say that you don't want to, you should just let them do whatever they want.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm talking to libertarians here, right?
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we still shouldn't be a part of it.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like we shouldn't be, you know, training surgeons that are gonna kill people to order, right?
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and and so forth.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of my and and and ultimately, right?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: I really think that people need to understand that we're talking about a regime that thinks like this about us, right?
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: In this extreme cold, calculated utilitarian way that thinks zero sum, doesn't believe in win-win, right?
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: Believes that oh, they're win the two win-win is two wins for me, is one way I've heard it described.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: And and but but I I still think that even though we've made progress in understanding the nature of the regime, I don't think we fully grasp that because I think we uh uh certain policies I think have been excellent of late, but but I I don't think we fully grasp what we're dealing with.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well all all cultural all cultural uh interactions like this um create tension, don't they?
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm thinking of, for example, the the Europeans and the Native Americans here.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this was this was a um this was a clash of cultures and and um cultures cult culture clash um the the more you intertwine the whatever the the the the easier it is for a dominant one to really take over another one.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: The the the thing with here, right, that's important to understand, and this is something I actually I talk about a lot of this, that uh communism is not a normal communist society is not a normal culture.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, it might be something like you know uh Andrej Wobachevsky uh is a guy that wrote a book called Political Ponderology, an incredibly important book, under while in this in the under Soviet occupation and with a whole group of people.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: And they argue in this book that that communism is pathocratic.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, that in it's a un it's in this unique system, it it's set up so that people with psychopathic and sociopathic tendencies rise to the top.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, generally in normal societies, because these this obviously, you know, does horrible things to societies, in normal societies, we have caps on that, we prevent that from happening, right?
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_02: You kind of need to have normal people.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's sort of selection measures for that.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and this is, you know, we you you you read something earlier that we were kind of co-opting, we're our own societies kind of being co-opted in the wrong direction.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_02: I would argue that that that's precisely we're precisely allowing uh people with sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies more agency to to enact their madness in our in our societies by you know, by by being influenced precisely by this ideology, okay?
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_02: By being influenced and and and the so-called engagement, right?
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we're being, we, you know, the we we said we're gonna change China by you know putting all that investment in, but actually the changes happen in the other direction because they never had any intention of changing.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: They were like, well, we're gonna subvert you because that's what we do.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: We have a whole department, right?
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't know if you're familiar with the United Front Work Department, but that's a think of it like a department or a ministry in some countries, right?
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_02: It would be called one of the most funded, great, most funded in China.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_02: Its entire purpose, we don't really have an analog for this, but its entire purpose is to subvert or destroy, if it can't be subverted, all civil society.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_02: All of that emergent thing that that is kind of the greatest, I think, of about it.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: This is what the Tocaville noticed about America, right?
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: He predicted very presciently that this phenomenon of Americans getting together around issues and forming institutions and kicking butt, right?
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: Fixing create, you know, dealing with those things.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, for example, uh, in you know, for example, uh the type of bottom-up grassroots agriculture, which you all are involved in, right?
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's a kind of the perfect example of that.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: The Chinese regime jealously destroys or subverts all of that.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's only things that can be under direct control which are allowed to survive.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a whole massively funded institution department committed to precisely this purpose, not just within China, by the way.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: This is the same group that subverts diaspora communities overseas, co-opts, you know, has this like committee of uh hundred, like basically people that recruits people out of American society to work on behalf of the regime and so forth.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: And this is one reason why I wanted you to come on the show to explain this because you know, a lot of us will say, Oh, we don't want to buy things that are from China, or like, you know, we're gonna try not to.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: But that's a good thing, by the way, Saina.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yo, yes, yes, and I agree.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and let's get into that.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think it's more after reading your book and really starting to understand um China and the history of it, and you did a great job laying that out.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: And just um how different it is, and that when you do buy a product made in China, what you are actually supporting it to me, it made it made me feel like before when I said I'm not gonna buy things from China, it was just kind of this, oh, you know, because they don't treat their citizens well.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't really know what that meant, but I've heard they don't really treat their citizens well, and we've had some contamination issues from their food supply, you know, or supplements or whatnot.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: But this uh this really hit home to me in a different way.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Joel and I are both free market supporters, and we talk about you have to use your money to feed the good and starve the bad.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, it's now more of a mission that I'm I don't want to, absolutely do not want to support any of what they're doing.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you and you talk in the book about how the US built China into what it is today.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: That it was US money, U.S.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: ingenuity, U.S.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: technology, U.S.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: patents, because I didn't know this either.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned that any American company wishing to partner with the Chinese um enterprise, they have to agree to transfer their intellectual property to the Chinese counterpart.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: And this is amongst things like Segway, solar panels, steel, electronics, pharmaceuticals, you mentioned fentanyl.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we have transferred our like and we have transferred our industrial base and a lot of critical supply chains to China.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um you mentioned in the book that how we rely on China for a staggering amount of goods, services, technologies, and resources.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to take a moment on this because with President Trump's executive order on glyphosate, he made that blatantly clear to all of us that we are our food supply, at least this monocropping industrial food supply, is dependent on China for glyphosate, for example.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then you get into the rare minerals that are we're also dependent on them for that, and part of that is even to make weapons.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um but if you look into what we're consuming as Americans, things that a lot of us consume every day, like synthetic vitamins or additives or other food sources, a lot of these come from China.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you look at the amount of dollars that the US imports in food and agricultural products from China, it's only like roughly four to bil$4 to$5 billion a year of food and agricultural products that we import from China, and we export many more.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's somewhere around like$35 billion back to China.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: But what most people don't realize is that they don't they're not usually sending us whole foods.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: They do some.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: So they might send us like about 80% of our tilapia, 50% of our cod, 20% of our garlic.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: But China dominates the market for isolated food ingredients, things like vitamins that are used to fortify our food or additives.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: So just a couple of stats to drive this home.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people are into consuming vitamin C, like in supplements, and a lot of times vitamin C is used as an antioxidant and a preservative in food and to fortify juices, meats, and snacks, for example.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: 90 percent of the vitamin C that we use in those instances comes from China.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_00: About 75 percent to 100 percent of B vitamins like folic acid and thiamine, these are manufactured and brought to us by China.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: And just think of all the things, all the foods that we have in America that are enriched with vitamins like flours, cereals, infant formulas, energy drinks.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you're consuming these products with ingredients, these chemicals that are made in China.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_00: 70 percent of our citric acid comes from China.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: They're the world's leading expert in MSG, synthetic sweeteners like aspartame, urethra um ureth, urethrol, urethitol, um, they even they are even the premier global exporter for like xanthan gum.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_00: And if you flip over packages of like dressings or sauces or ice creams or a lot of baked goods, they have xanthin gum in it, or um kerogenin, or soy protein.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: So though we could go on and on.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: Our apple juice, 70% of our apple juice comes from China.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: We could go on and on and on.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: But my point is China dominates this industrial chemical management.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Manufacturing and microbial fermentation system.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it is our primary source for a lot of these chemicals that are put into America's processed food.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we eat a lot more of food coming from China than you would think the statistics actually bear out.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem is, I will tell you also, this is part of the whole illusion that you can't really track the global supply chain.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's just relating to the organ harvesting as well.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is that we have these labeling loopholes where those even though those chemicals are coming from China, it doesn't have to be listed on that label.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as it's put into these other products and it's mixed together, that's actually this labeling loophole that you don't have to declare it coming from China.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not going to know if it's Chinese-made xanthan gum.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you can have like uh a domestic food producer, like one that's in America.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: They can drop in like a few kilograms of xanthin gum or ascorbic acid made in China into like a 10,000 gallon vat of American-made soup.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end, it can carry a stamp on it that says made in America.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the person is going to walk away thinking, oh, this is from America, right?
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: But no, you're actually eating these chemicals that are processed in China.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_00: And after reading your book, now I'm even more convinced that I don't want that in my body, right?
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: If they're willing, if if the Chinese party is God, right, there's nothing higher than that party, right?
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: Than the c than communism, nothing higher.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's God.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: Who are they accountable to is that party.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: They don't even have the right to their own body, right?
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's owned, in my understanding from your book, the body is owned by that party.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's totally different than what we have in America.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want somebody with those lack of morals making foods that I'm eating or vitamins that I'm eating or that I'm giving to my to my pets, even.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, but and we know that they're buying U.S.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: farmland.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: They bought Smithfield Foods, right?
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: So they are controlling a lot of our resources and our inputs.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: That isn't that part of the plan?
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's a case in point here, right?
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um in 2018, there was uh this contamination of a type of heart drug called Valsartan.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a really it's a very interesting case, but it kind of speaks exactly to this.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, they control a lot of the medical precursor supply chain.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like a lot of the things, like there's a lot of those products that you would be able, we'd be able to replicate pretty quickly.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like we can produce vitamin C at scale relatively quickly, okay?
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_02: But some of these medical precursors, which you know, you could argue debate the utility of some of them too, to be fair, okay, but uh are actually manufactured in China, especially the generics.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_02: And this has been, you know, this we only really fully realized it uh, you know, 2015, 2016, I think when Rosemary Gibson wrote China RX, a very important book where she just sort of figured out that a lot of this is really happening.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_02: The the the pharmaceutical companies were telling us, okay?
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_02: Surprise, surprise.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so what what what happened was they basically substituted part, an ingredient in this heart drug, you know, kind of life-saving heart drug, with an analog.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_02: And the thing is, this analog was actually designed to pass through the screens, because you know, there is some testing that happens, not nearly enough of these products, but the analog was designed to mimic the original component, okay, and not be noticed, okay, if when when it's being screened.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_02: It was put into this heart medication.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_02: And the only reason we realized it was because a very prominent doctor ended up having basically his heart explode after bringing himself into a hospital after having taken this adulterated version of Alcertan.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And what had happened, now we we don't think this was because there was this ill intent in particular to cause this problem.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_02: We think that the company basically just wasn't able to produce the correct product and they just had something that they could produce that just and substituted it in because it was cheaper, because it was easier, because it would keep the cash flow flowing, right?
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Though this lack of morals that you're describing.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_02: But the case illustrates how easy it would be to adulterate the US food or medical supply chain.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, it may, you know, and there's even testing being done now by the US military of several key drugs that are used in the US military, and they're finding that the stuff that's coming from China is very low quality.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, like some of it isn't, doesn't work very well, even.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Some poor, like the batches, there's a lot of variation in the batches themselves.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Could that, you know, some of that it could, that could actually very easily be by design.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Again, right?
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_02: You're saying, oh, Jan, you're getting you're getting into conspiracy thinking here.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, no, right.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned the fentanyl.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about those medical, those fentanyl precursors, you know, the whole supply chain is driven from China.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_02: They make the pill presses, they launder the money for the Mexican cartels.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_02: They just provide the goods.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_02: The cartels put it all together and are financed by China.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's what they call it drug warfare.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's part of their unrestricted warfare doctrine.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_02: Something uh I have a whole chapter dedicated to that in the book, where they use non-military techniques to attack America.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Now we're talking about taking 40,000 military-aged males off the map a year, right?
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's what that actually amounts to.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_02: Imagine.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think that I don't know how that compares to um Vietnam, but it's probably about what the US lost in Vietnam.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that's annually now, right?
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: That that and the the the the point here is, and they're actually, it seems like they're actually taking some action because, you know, uh Kash Patel went to China, started, you know, tried to kind of stop some of these precursors.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_02: It seems they actually have responded to that in a in a positive way.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, I don't believe that's it with good intent.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like the US has built a lot more leverage against communist China.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's the only way to get them to actually do anything that you actually want them to do that they don't feel that's in their interest.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_02: You have to kind of have a big stick, you know, that you're that you're that you're that you're holding beside, right?
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_02: So basically leverage, right?
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_02: So they've built, we're in this situation right now where they've built a whole lot of critical leverage against America.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned rare earths, that's a great example.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Some of the critical minerals, these medical precursors are another piece.
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, uh, there's there's other things as well.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they've insinuated themselves deep into the global economy, uh, that sort of try to make your yourself too big to fail.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, if you're if you're gonna make us suffer financially, i.e.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_02: by withdrawing your massive amount of money, which you give us every year, there's that.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_02: I I think I honestly think that that that that that's a big reason that economy still functions because it'll it's a almost entirely an export economy now.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Their whole real estate part of their economy has collapsed because of corruption.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_02: And again, all sorts of other reasons we could discuss another time.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_02: But but that's that's where we're at.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're we're heading in the right direction, right?
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_02: There's a almost zero foreign direct investment into China.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_02: People finally realize that when they're investing in there, they're not getting that money back, right?
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is another thing.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_02: They have a closed capital account, right?
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_02: You can say, Well, I've invested, I have billions invested in China.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, try taking it out.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_02: How much are your billions worth now if they can just say no?
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right, which is which of course they can and do and have many times.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_02: So um it's a it I thank you for for thinking so deeply about these questions from the con you know, from your vantage point of food, which is of course here, this is this is the heart and soul of what you work on, um, because it's incredibly relevant.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um what and we're almost at a time.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I have one more question and then I'll throw it over to Joel.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um I thought this was a very profound statement, and I thought this would resonate with Joel as well.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_00: When you talked about them infiltrating our system, and by the way, I love how you talked about the CCP draws on the art of war, where they balance competition with cooperation and avoid direct confrontation.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that it just nails on the head exactly what they're doing.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you talk about the psychological warfare on Americans, and that this is in part through TikTok.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a great quote in here, you talk about how TikTok, quote, maybe a more powerful weapon than China's nuclear arsenal.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Can you explain?
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, Joel, I thought you would really appreciate this too, because Joel and I are not on TikTok.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're we are opposed to TikTok.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Even, you know, our um our wonderful editor uh mentioned getting on TikTok because you know, that's where it's at, and you could grow your business.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and he's looking out for us.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_00: But both of us said, no.
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I read this and I was like, oh, Joel's gonna love this part.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_00: So can you explain how is it that TikTok may be a more powerful weapon than China's nuclear arsenal?
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'll I'll I'll explain.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm I'd love to learn.
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have to cover this now, but I'd love to learn why you don't want to use TikTok.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because for me, the number one reason I don't want to use TikTok.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Now imagine, right, how powerful there.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_02: There's a there's a whole documentary that I'm forgetting the name of now, right?
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_02: That sort of explains how social media companies gather these very detailed pro.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's called the not the social network.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm confusing, I'm confusing documentaries.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_02: But basically they develop extremely detailed profiles of you.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_02: They know everything about you.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_02: You're looking when you do a video, they're looking at everything that's behind you, right?
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_02: And ingesting that information, right?
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's a they're basically building these profiles of you that are so deep that they're deeper than you even know, right?
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_02: And they can figure things out predictively based on your behavior and so forth.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_02: This is actually their bread and butter, right?
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_02: This is how social and the social media companies then feed you ads based on that information, right?
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's this is uh this was the business model and not just social media companies, Google and and and so forth, right?
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_02: So now imagine that unbelievable amount of information that is almost unfathomable in the hands of this untethered communist regime that seeks to subvert America and frankly anything that's not under its direct control.
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I to me that that puts the fear of God into me.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_02: And and there's we can offer all sorts of examples in which that's been utilized uh already.
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, uh, but like for example, right, during uh you remember there were these all these kind of riots uh uh during uh you know kind of twenty uh 20 Black Lives Matter time, 2020 time, uh TikTok was kind of feeding people how to do this effectively, you know, at significant at significant margin.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_02: So basically they can with some plausible deniability, right?
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because remember, they control the algorithm.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_02: So on the one hand, they're collecting insane amounts of information on everybody.
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_02: They know who, for example, are the people involved in national security in America, and they can particularly look at them, right?
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_02: So there's this whole one side of it is this collection of information and being able to identify who people are based on their particular behaviors, right?
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and the the that's one piece, and it's a very it's a huge mash national security, you know, risk from that perspective.
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_02: But the more uh problematic part, even, is the ability to give people directed information that doesn't look like it's directed, okay?
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like there be because people just see what they see, and no one will ever know what they saw because it's not recorded anymore.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_02: So it's called an ephemeral moment.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's a term in this in in the industry, it's like an ephemeral effect, right?
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like someone saw an ad or they saw something come up, but no one will ever know that is unless someone took a screenshot, right?
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so you can actually subtly influence people to start thinking differently.
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_02: If someone has uh a particular predisposition towards violence, for example, you could feed them things which you've learned because you have this massive database, you can feed them things that it will make them more violent.
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_02: You could encourage their tendency to want to, you know, attack the government, whatever it is, right, that that is in your particular interest.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_02: And on top of that, right, there's a national security law in China, which basically says if you're under our auspices, you're required to spy uh and you're not allowed to tell people that you're doing so.
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_02: That actually applies to any Chinese that's working in America.
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_02: This is a pro this is one of the big challenges we have, right?
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_02: With I I don't believe in being completely isolationist and saying no Chinese allowed in America.
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I don't think that's right, right.
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think that in any sensitive industries, like remember, right?
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like people have families back in China, even if someone doesn't want to do this, right?
• 1:20:02
  SPEAKER_02: And they resist doing uh, you know, spying, even though the law explicitly says they have to and not say that they're doing so, their their family can still be leveraged very easily.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, why aren't you doing what you're supposed to be doing?
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_02: That kind of thing.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, but in a context of TikTok, you can imagine how pernicious it is.
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very extreme, extremely powerful tool to can be like shape people's thinking without them realizing that they're being shaped.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's uh it's called in advertising, it's called subliminal seduction.
• 1:20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Subliminal seduction.
• 1:20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_01: I remember studying that.
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Cena, we are really we are out of time.
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, I know you're just you're just busting to to do more, but uh, we've taken um Jan's um time more than more than uh we bargain for.
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think we just can't uh it's it's it's a powerful thought.
• 1:21:01
  SPEAKER_01: It it brings to me the the verse in the biblical verse in Hosea that asks the question, can two walk together except they be agreed?
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's um that's something that we that that has not only personal implications, but corporate government you know implications um to to to walking together.
• 1:21:24
  SPEAKER_01: So Cena, are you bursting for one or are we okay to uh can I can I just briefly comment on that, Joel?
• 1:21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Just super briefly.
• 1:21:34
  SPEAKER_02: I know, I know nothing's gonna be brief, but welcome to the show.
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party, doesn't know how to walk together as one.
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_02: They don't think that way.
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is one of the it's I'm so I love that you mentioned that verse because we we want we want that, right?
• 1:21:56
  SPEAKER_02: We want it, we want to create those situations where we're working together, we're trying to build something together.
• 1:22:03
  SPEAKER_02: They have this very cold, zero-sum way of thinking.
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_02: They even have a measure, I know on another podcast we can talk about, but con comprehensive national power.
• 1:22:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:22:13
  SPEAKER_02: And they basically use this to measure themselves against others.
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_02: They don't, they just simply they don't agree to things which are win-win, genuinely.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_02: They only agree to things that may have the appearance of win-win, uh, but but really they're they're getting the lion's share of the win, if you will, because it's just it's just part of the way of thinking.
• 1:22:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it's very appropriate that as we kind of finish, uh, that that you would mention that.
• 1:22:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a kind of a key message of the book, is that, you know, whether it's TikTok, whether it's working in the medical profession, whether it's food, right, you're working with a regime.
• 1:22:51
  SPEAKER_02: Not not everybody, by the way, there's there's incredible people at in China.
• 1:22:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Falun Gong forms a civil disobedience movement that's possibly the biggest in the world that's peaceful.
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's it's it's not, we're not talking about just the Chinese people as a whole, but we are talking about a regime which demands obedience or at least performative obedience and requires people to do things which they would never, you know, based on a uh on the type of morality that that that we value, uh requires them to basically co-opt their morals.
• 1:23:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I I actually I think you know, when I look at you know, some of the traditional Chinese approaches, there's a lot of compatibility.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's not the same, but there's a lot of compatibility with traditional Judeo-Christian values, with Falun Gong in particular, right, which is a kind of quintessential traditional culture.
• 1:23:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of compatibility with traditional Judeo-Christian values.
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Not again, I'm not saying it's all is the same, not I'm not saying that at all, but but what we're talking about here is something very different, right?
• 1:23:57
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about communist culture, very different.
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, so seeing up my question for our listeners, our community, um, see what this sounds like.
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if you say after we've listened to Jan and really uh dug into the kind of the Chinese, the Communist Party psyche, if you will, if you say that 250 years ago, when America was founded, you know, here we are celebrating our 250-year anniversary, um, if if America was on a scale of one to ten, how closely we um how closely our society um uh adhered to to this communist thought that we've listened, that we've kind of dug into today.
• 1:24:54
  SPEAKER_01: If we were a zero on a scale of of one to ten 250 years ago, where are we today on that scale?
• 1:25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Are we a two, three, nine, eight?
• 1:25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, love to hear your feedback on where you think we are uh as a as a society now, 250 years after being a zero.
• 1:25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Where are we on that scale?
• 1:25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Can we have Jan answer?
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love that question.
• 1:25:21
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to have Jan answer since he's our expert here.
• 1:25:25
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to have, but but I don't I don't want him to prejudice our listeners, but yes, I would love to hear what Jan thinks.
• 1:25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, well, so maybe maybe we I can add I I this is actually something I really have to think about because you see, I'm super bullish on America, right?
• 1:25:43
  SPEAKER_02: I really I I I I feel this progressivism, right?
• 1:25:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh unfortunately, this sort of progressive approach to the world, rule by expert class.
• 1:25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, you know, there's a great article written by a guy named N.
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_02: S.
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Lyons, that's his pen name, called the China Convergence, right?
• 1:26:03
  SPEAKER_02: And the China Convergence is how essentially about how we're we're kind of heading into the same in the same direction.
• 1:26:11
  SPEAKER_02: China's coming from one angle, right?
• 1:26:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we're coming from another angle within this information society where there's a lot more top-down control.
• 1:26:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we have headed in that direction.
• 1:26:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the governance, there's another book called The Information State, written by Jacob Siegel, very important book that's talking about how the nature of our governance has actually been shifting because of the technology.
• 1:26:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like the, you know, we say politics is downstream from culture, culture is downstream from media.
• 1:26:39
  SPEAKER_02: And the Gutenberg press is the textbook example of that.
• 1:26:42
  SPEAKER_02: It has trans changed the world, created wars, democratized faith, you know.
• 1:26:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:26:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's just so many things happen, right?
• 1:26:49
  SPEAKER_02: We're in we're in a situation like that now.
• 1:26:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd really have to think what kind of a number I would put there, right?
• 1:26:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's it's not obvious.
• 1:26:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think, like, and and also like we've discovered in the last few years that there's a heck of a lot of people that are uninterested in it deeply.
• 1:27:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've been uninterested in a very long time.
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_02: I've been mostly uninterested, but I didn't realize how far down that we had already moved.
• 1:27:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that tells me where that lowers my number, you see.
• 1:27:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I was just looking at, you know, you know, five years ago without knowing how many people are deeply committed to the founding principles, right?
• 1:27:29
  SPEAKER_02: Which is a heck of a lot of people, right?
• 1:27:31
  SPEAKER_02: Then I would have might have said a higher number.
• 1:27:33
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, how about I give you that number as part of the people?
• 1:27:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna think about it a little more, okay?
• 1:27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe maybe maybe we should maybe we should refine the question like you have, and saying it in saying that the the CCP is not necessarily the average Chinese, or you know, it's it they're they're like two different entities.
• 1:27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe my question is too broad.
• 1:27:58
  SPEAKER_01: It should be it should be um where is the um where is the Washington political system it it it in this, you know, not not not not American culture, American civilization, but where is the um where is the the Washington political system in this?
• 1:28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because it in in a lot of ways um the the divergence between the average uh person in America and the sensibilities of Washington, D.C.
• 1:28:35
  SPEAKER_01: uh are almost as divergent sometimes as as the a as as a a regular Chinese person and the elite of the Communist Party.
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, no, and especially those people which like, for example, the I mean, I uh however many tens of millions of Falun Gong practitioners there is very difficult.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, you know, very, very, very different view of the world from the Chinese Communist Party.
• 1:29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's um, I don't know.
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'll I'll I would say I would give it a five.
• 1:29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:29:08
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason uh I'll just say the reason I give it a five, because that there's still a long road to get to kill to order.
• 1:29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:29:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's a there's still and and I I hope that's a road that we we just say today, let's kind of stop that road, right?
• 1:29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we don't we don't we we don't want to go any further.
• 1:29:29
  SPEAKER_02: By the way, if the one thing I wanted to mention before we jump off, because I keep forgetting to do this, if you do want to get the book, killtoorder.com, that I have a short link which I created.
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's the Amazon link.
• 1:29:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now you guys might not like Amazon.
• 1:29:42
  SPEAKER_02: You can also get it in your local bookstore, library, request it, all of that.
• 1:29:46
  SPEAKER_02: But for those that want the one-click option, killtoorder.com, right?
• 1:29:51
  SPEAKER_02: This is that's that's the book.
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Killtoorder.com.
• 1:29:55
  SPEAKER_01: I we just can't tell you, Jan, how um privileged and honored we are to have you on and sharing this this amazing story that is uh uh uh relational, um international, spiritual, physical, psychological.
• 1:30:14
  SPEAKER_01: It it it it colors all of that.
• 1:30:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um and you're such an eloquent spokesman for it, and we just appreciate your time and being with us.
• 1:30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, and thank you all for joining us on another Beyond Labels podcast, and we'll look forward to visiting with you again next week.