Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / AFANT CEO David Ciaravolo hopes the group will be involved in negotiations around Blue Mud Bay so that recreational fisher can still have access to tidal waters next year

Transcript

AFANT CEO David Ciaravolo hopes the group will be involved in negotiations around Blue Mud Bay so that recreational fisher can still have access to tidal waters next year · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Now joining me in the studio right now is David Girrovolo,
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  Speaker 1: who is the CEO of afat the Amateur Fishermen's Association
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  Speaker 1: here in the Northern Territory.
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  Speaker 2: Good morning to you, David.
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  Speaker 3: Good morning Katie, and good morning listeners.
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  Speaker 2: Now great to have you in the studio.
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  Speaker 1: We did get you on the show this morning because
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  Speaker 1: we want to talk to you about the NT Fishing
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  Speaker 1: Made app being relaunched. But before we get to that,
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  Speaker 1: very much some breaking news throughout this morning. We know
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  Speaker 1: that the ABC's Jarno Gibson has a report this morning
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  Speaker 1: regarding the Blue Mud Bay decision. Now, obviously we know
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  Speaker 1: that decision was made back in two thousand and eight.
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  Speaker 1: Documents leaked to the ABC express concerns about the agreement
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  Speaker 1: between the Northern Territory Government and the Northern Land Council,
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  Speaker 1: describing the agreement as flawed, lacking in transparency and heavily
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  Speaker 1: skewed in favor of traditional owners with no consideration of
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  Speaker 1: the broader fishing industry.
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  Speaker 2: David, from your.
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  Speaker 1: Perspective, from our fan's perspective, where are things at in
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  Speaker 1: relation to this and in relation to these negotiations.
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  Speaker 4: So firstly, Katie, I think it is regrettable that this
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  Speaker 4: conversation is occurring as a result of this information coming
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  Speaker 4: out the way that it has, And I think you
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  Speaker 4: know there are sensitive negotiations and traditional owners' rights around
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  Speaker 4: the sole right to speak for their country needs to
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  Speaker 4: be respected. So the public discourse around this does have
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  Speaker 4: the perspective to the chance or possibility of making things
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  Speaker 4: worse in terms of negotiations.
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  Speaker 3: So that is a real shame.
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  Speaker 4: Having said that, it is there is some characterization in
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  Speaker 4: that report from Jarana that you just quoted that talks
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  Speaker 4: about a lack of transparency or other stakeholders not being included,
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  Speaker 4: and that is certainly the case. The agreement the implementation
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  Speaker 4: plan was reached between the NLC and the previous Chief
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  Speaker 4: Minister prior to the last election.
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  Speaker 3: It didn't include other parties like.
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  Speaker 4: The Amateur Fishing Association or our sector or seafood sector.
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  Speaker 4: And so we have a situation where a number of
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  Speaker 4: things have been delivered by the territory government for the
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  Speaker 4: Northern Land Council and traditional owners.
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  Speaker 3: We've had ten million dollars for an Aboriginal sea company.
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  Speaker 4: We've had increased fishing rights or commercial fishing rights through
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  Speaker 4: the aboriginal coastal license rangers, getting fisheries powers and consultation
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  Speaker 4: on a review of the Fisheries Act to better incorporate
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  Speaker 4: Aboriginal fishing interests. But we've not had any positive progress
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  Speaker 4: on fishing access for recreational or commercial fishes. And what
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  Speaker 4: we have had is a loss of access to places
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  Speaker 4: like the Finnis River and the Mini Minis. So in
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  Speaker 4: recent times since the new Chief Minister, Natasha Files, has
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  Speaker 4: taken over, it's been some promising signs, some more inclusive discussions,
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  Speaker 4: but generally speaking, the last two years have been very
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  Speaker 4: difficult and have been heading in the wrong direction from
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  Speaker 4: our perspective.
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  Speaker 1: And so David talk us through, I mean, with these negotiations,
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  Speaker 1: where are they ash or who do they need to
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  Speaker 1: be had with to make sure that we've got some
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  Speaker 1: progress in this space.
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  Speaker 4: So the decision of the previous Chief Minister was to
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  Speaker 4: sideline the roles of voices like mine in those negotiations
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  Speaker 4: in favor of negotiations between the government and the NLC.
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  Speaker 4: More directly, it's also those negotiations have gone away from
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  Speaker 4: the Fisheries Minister and the Department of Fisheries, where all
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  Speaker 4: of that knowledge and expertise and history around fishing resides,
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  Speaker 4: and it's been placed into the Department of Chief Minister
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  Speaker 4: and Cabinet and there has been the progress has been
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  Speaker 4: very frustrating, to say the least, and I think coming
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  Speaker 4: into next year, it looks like we're staring down the
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  Speaker 4: barrel of everyday territorians either not having access to vast
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  Speaker 4: swathes of rivers and the coastline or having a permit system,
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  Speaker 4: which is very uncertain. We don't know how much it's
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  Speaker 4: going to cost, where it's going to apply to, how
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  Speaker 4: long before you want to go you'll have to apply
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  Speaker 4: for one, or if they'll even be offered, And after
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  Speaker 4: so much negotiation, after so many years, it's really disappointing
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  Speaker 4: that it's come to this, and I just really hope
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  Speaker 4: that with the changes that we've seen in government and
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  Speaker 4: leadership in the government, there is an opportunity to be
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  Speaker 4: more inclusive moving forward.
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  Speaker 2: I mean there has to be, Like this is quite unbelievable.
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  Speaker 1: We know that the Northern Territory is somewhere where everybody
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  Speaker 1: loves to fish, and like you said, right from the outset,
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  Speaker 1: we all respect the rights of the traditional owners. There
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  Speaker 1: is no doubt about that, but the fact that these
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  Speaker 1: negotiations have now broken down or have not happened, and
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  Speaker 1: from what you have said, you know, come January one,
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  Speaker 1: if there's no an agreement in place, or if there
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  Speaker 1: is not, you know, some kind of understanding in place,
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  Speaker 1: what is that going to mean for fishing more broadly
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  Speaker 1: in the territory.
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  Speaker 4: Well, for fishing and also just for living in the territory.
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  Speaker 4: I think it's really really important to clarify.
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  Speaker 3: I don't want to pick up on that point you
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  Speaker 3: made there.
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  Speaker 4: The Northern Territory, the traditional ownership and the rights of
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  Speaker 4: traditional owners is not in question here. The Northern Territory
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  Speaker 4: has the strongest regime of Aboriginal land rights in the country.
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  Speaker 4: Traditional owners have the sole right to make decision for
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  Speaker 4: what happens on their country and that is not in dispute.
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  Speaker 4: What we're talking about here is the fact that the
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  Speaker 4: places that traditional owners own and own outright are places
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  Speaker 4: that everyday Australians have a lot of love and interest for,
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  Speaker 4: and we do need the government to do the best
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  Speaker 4: it possibly can to create a way that we can
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  Speaker 4: all live together in harmony and have a way of
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  Speaker 4: accessing the places that we love and that we care about,
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  Speaker 4: so we can have the health and well being benefits
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  Speaker 4: that come from accessing nature and being on our rivers
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  Speaker 4: and being on our beaches, just like all of the
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  Speaker 4: other Australians across the country, but not here in the
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  Speaker 4: Northern Territory.
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  Speaker 1: Now, I think it's well worth pointing out. My understanding
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  Speaker 1: is that, you know, when you talk about these documents
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  Speaker 1: that have been leaked to the ABC expressing these concerns,
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  Speaker 1: my understanding is that the Minister Responsible, Paul Kirby, didn't
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  Speaker 1: sign off on, you know, on on those draft documents.
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  Speaker 2: From my understanding is that yours as well well.
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  Speaker 4: From from the report it does say that it's that
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  Speaker 4: it's unsigned. I mean, I think that's a question better
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  Speaker 4: answered by the minister. But look, I have to say
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  Speaker 4: in my engagement with the Minister, of course he has
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  Speaker 4: been very concerned about things that we've raised with him,
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  Speaker 4: or he's been let me say not, he's been very concerned.
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  Speaker 4: He's listened to what we've had to say. But also
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  Speaker 4: you know, he understands the law in the Northern Territory.
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  Speaker 4: He understands that traditional owners have the right. We all
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  Speaker 4: understand that this is not about questioning the rights of
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  Speaker 4: traditional owners. This is about trying to see if the
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  Speaker 4: kinds of arrangements that could be put on the table
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  Speaker 4: by the government might be acceptable. Now I would accept,
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  Speaker 4: I would expect that that's a negotiation that takes time,
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  Speaker 4: that it involves a lot of to and fro, and
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  Speaker 4: if we could see that to and fro happening then
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  Speaker 4: and that would be a positive sign. We need to
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  Speaker 4: look beyond January one, and we need to look towards
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  Speaker 4: a shared future. It shouldn't be about finger pointing, but
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  Speaker 4: it should be about suspending our disbelief looking at the past.
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  Speaker 4: That's been a difficult series of negotiations, but saying can
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  Speaker 4: we just try to see what is possible and work
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  Speaker 4: towards the future that everyone could be part of.
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  Speaker 3: For that many people in.
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  Speaker 4: My office and ringing us either in tears or on
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  Speaker 4: the verge of it, and wondering why and if they
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  Speaker 4: want to continue to live in the territory, And I
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  Speaker 4: don't think it's because they might have to get a permit.
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  Speaker 4: I don't think it's because traditional owners should be able
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  Speaker 4: to rightly benefit from their ownership of waters. It's because
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  Speaker 4: of the uncertainty, and it's because they don't feel like
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  Speaker 4: we're making any progress and putting things forward that are
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  Speaker 4: mutually agreeable and successful.
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  Speaker 1: I mean to me and David you may be hesitant
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  Speaker 1: to say anything in this space, but to me it
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  Speaker 1: does feel like that holly and solely falls at the
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  Speaker 1: feet of the government not actually continuing with these negotiations.
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  Speaker 4: Well, look, I think there have been people working on it.
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  Speaker 4: As I said, I don't think the arrangement has been
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  Speaker 4: ideal to date. I think this had its I we
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  Speaker 4: had heads of agreement signed by the Territory government. I
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  Speaker 4: was in here talking about how excited we were signed
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  Speaker 4: by AFAN, the Northern Land Council, Seafood Council and Guided Fishes.
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  Speaker 4: What followed on from that at the just prior to
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  Speaker 4: the twenty twenty election was a deal signed between the
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  Speaker 4: then Chief Minister, Michael Gunner and the Northern Land Council
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  Speaker 4: that didn't include the other parties. It only progressed certain
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  Speaker 4: parts of that heads of agreement and so we haven't
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  Speaker 4: had that involvement in more recent time. We've had more
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  Speaker 4: updates than we've had over the last couple of years
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  Speaker 4: since Minister Files or Chief Minister Files has taken over.
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  Speaker 4: I think that heralds an opportunity to be more inclusive.
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  Speaker 4: A lot of the things that have been promised to
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  Speaker 4: the Northern Land Council and traditional owners appear to have
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  Speaker 4: been delivered, but we do need to see some progress
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  Speaker 4: on those negotia and to be flexible about what they are.
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  Speaker 3: Some areas currently have permit free arrangements.
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  Speaker 4: Talking to fishes, what they really want is to be
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  Speaker 4: able to access the place they love and care about
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  Speaker 4: and to have certainty. And I would hope that we
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  Speaker 4: can meet traditional owners where they are because they want
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  Speaker 4: to know that people are on their land are doing
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  Speaker 4: the right thing. If people do the wrong thing, they
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  Speaker 4: want to be able to stop them. And there is
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  Speaker 4: nothing wrong with any of that, but we need to
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  Speaker 4: have conversations that entertain all of that possibility, not have
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  Speaker 4: some people putting forward something that's been put forward for
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  Speaker 4: a long time and rejected or not having enough detail
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  Speaker 4: conversations or enough resources into that. You can't just wait
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  Speaker 4: for the NLC to come to the government. The government
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  Speaker 4: does need to put its best foot forward and I
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  Speaker 4: hope that's what's going to happen.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope so as well, because you know from
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  Speaker 1: those previous discussions that you and I had in this studio,
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  Speaker 1: but also that we'd had with the NLC. At the time,
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  Speaker 1: it all did sound as though, you know, things were
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  Speaker 1: quite positive and people were trying to all work together
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  Speaker 1: to make sure that it was the best possible outcome
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  Speaker 1: for everybody involved.
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  Speaker 4: Well, look, if the politics could get out of the way,
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  Speaker 4: we've got good people on all sides, with a lot
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  Speaker 4: of good will. Since the two thousand and eight Bloom
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  Speaker 4: My Bad decision, the vast majority of traditional owners have
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  Speaker 4: either made an agreement with the government to facilitate access
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  Speaker 4: or allowed interim access.
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  Speaker 3: With no benefits going to them.
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  Speaker 4: Now, some traditional loans have got frustrated and closed their waters,
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  Speaker 4: and places like the Finish and Mini Minis have become closed,
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  Speaker 4: and recreational fishes are feeling that very acutely. But there
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  Speaker 4: has been a lot of good will out there over
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  Speaker 4: that time. When you've had years of goodwill, you should
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  Speaker 4: be able to turn that into enduring agreements and a
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  Speaker 4: shared future that people can live with. The fact that
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  Speaker 4: that appears not to have happened to date is very disappointing,
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  Speaker 4: But I hope we can tap into that good will
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  Speaker 4: reset where this is at it's regrettable we're having this
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  Speaker 4: conversation out in public, but people do need to be
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: informed and to know what's going on, and I think
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  Speaker 4: they'd be very disappointed to hear that come January one,
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  Speaker 4: a lot more uncertainty headed our way.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Look, I'm surprised to hear that, and you and I
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  Speaker 1: talk fairly regularly. I'm surprised to hear that come January one.
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  Speaker 1: We're now in this situation, so I know that a
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  Speaker 1: lot of listeners will probably be as surprised as I am.
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  Speaker 2: Look, we'll try our.
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  Speaker 1: Best to see if we're able to get the Minister
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  Speaker 1: on the show tomorrow, also see if we're able to
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  Speaker 1: have a discussion with the NLC. But by the sounds
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  Speaker 1: of it, it's actually the Minister that we need to
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  Speaker 1: have a chat with to try to work out how
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  Speaker 1: they are progressing these negotiations and discussions.
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  Speaker 2: Now, David, while I've got you, I will ask you about.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: The topic that we got you in here to talk
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  Speaker 1: about this morning, and that is obviously, we learned that
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: the Fishing Mate app it's been relaunched. It's renamed INNT
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Fishing and Boating Mate with a new look. Now the
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: app offers anglers and voters who user friendly one stop
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  Speaker 1: app is what we've been told. I've had a few
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  Speaker 1: people get in contact though and say that they preferred
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  Speaker 1: the older version.
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  Speaker 2: Talk us through though, firstly, what this new version is
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  Speaker 2: all about.
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  Speaker 4: Sure, So this app has been developed by NT Fishery
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  Speaker 4: so that Northern Territory Government in conjunction with Marine Safety,
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: which is part of the Department of Infrastructure, Planning Logistics.
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  Speaker 4: And what they've done is they've pulled together all of
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  Speaker 4: the information that recreational fishes need when they head out boating,
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  Speaker 4: fishing size limits and fishing rules, boating safety requirements, areas
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  Speaker 4: where people shouldn't enter with their boats or where people can.
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  Speaker 3: And can't fish.
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  Speaker 4: But they've also put that together with tied times and
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  Speaker 4: peak fishing times and information that's really useful too fishes.
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  Speaker 4: So it is a really handy app and to have
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  Speaker 4: all that information at your fingertips is really, really real,
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  Speaker 4: really great.
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  Speaker 2: So hopefully a bit of a one stop shop for people.
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  Speaker 4: Look, it certainly is one stop shop for people. It's
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  Speaker 4: been designed to be that one thing. If people open
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  Speaker 4: it before they go fishing, it'll even work when people
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  Speaker 4: go out of range. The map service will work on there,
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  Speaker 4: so it is really handy in that regard, and I'll
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  Speaker 4: certainly encourage all fishes to update the.
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  Speaker 3: App or download the new app and give it a try.
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  Speaker 4: There's always an adjustment to new technology, but if people
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  Speaker 4: do have feedback, I'm sure that they could give that
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: to anti fisheries and they'd really like to hear it well.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: David Tirovolo, the CEO of a f and here in
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  Speaker 1: the territory. We really appreciate your time this morning. Thanks
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: so much for coming in and having a chat with us.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks Katie,