Latest / Legally Brunette / KILLER THRILLER DOCU: How Utah Influencer Ruby Franke and Therapist Jodi Hildebrandt Used Faith to Justify Child Abuse

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KILLER THRILLER DOCU: How Utah Influencer Ruby Franke and Therapist Jodi Hildebrandt Used Faith to Justify Child Abuse · Legally Brunette

0:13
Speaker 1: Hi, you guys. Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition.
0:16
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jen Fessler, and we are going in
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Speaker 1: depth and behind the scenes of the most watched and
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Speaker 1: most binged true crime documentaries and docuseries. And today we're
0:25
Speaker 1: diving into the Netflix documentary Evil Influencer, the Jody Hildebrandt Story.
0:29
Speaker 1: This is a story that I remember hearing about and
0:33
Speaker 1: it was and is a horrific story about, in my mind,
0:38
Speaker 1: crazy people, evil people. But we will get to that.
0:41
Speaker 1: Ruby Frankie was a well known parenting YouTuber. Behind the scenes,
0:45
Speaker 1: she had fallen under the influence of another evil person
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Speaker 1: and in my humble opinion, Jody Hildebrant, a therapist who
0:52
Speaker 1: preached extreme religious based beliefs, teaching the children who misbehaved
0:56
Speaker 1: were evil if you can imagine this, and needed to
0:59
Speaker 1: be punished. So in August twenty twenty three, one of
1:01
Speaker 1: Ruby's young sons escaped from JODI's home. This scene in
1:05
Speaker 1: this documentary is so devastating. He was malnourished, he was injured,
1:10
Speaker 1: he was bound with duct tape on his wrists and
1:13
Speaker 1: his ankles, and he ran over to a neighbor and
1:16
Speaker 1: I think he knocked on three neighbors doors and begged
1:19
Speaker 1: for help. Finally, finally a man came out and helped
1:22
Speaker 1: him and call the police. And when they arrived, they
1:26
Speaker 1: went back to the house and found another child inside
1:28
Speaker 1: in a similarly horrific, disgusting condition. So what followed exposed
1:33
Speaker 1: a pattern of severe abuse hidden behind the language of discipline,
1:36
Speaker 1: faith and control. It is wild. Both women were arrested
1:41
Speaker 1: and later pleaded guilty to child abuse. And today I
1:45
Speaker 1: am speaking with licensed marriage and family therapist Natasha Helfer,
1:49
Speaker 1: who appears in the documentary and also overlapped in that
1:52
Speaker 1: same therapy community as Jody Hildebrandt saw a lot of
1:56
Speaker 1: her ex clients, and hopeful she can make some of
2:01
Speaker 1: this makes sense to me because it's still keeping me
2:03
Speaker 1: up at night. So you guys, Natasha, Hi, Natasha. Before
2:07
Speaker 1: I ask you anything, I want to say that you know,
2:10
Speaker 1: sky Boardman, We've we've interviewed her, that the brilliant sky
2:16
Speaker 1: the director. Yeah, and she's you know, she's huge. But
2:20
Speaker 1: she makes these choices and I assume you were having
2:23
Speaker 1: you on with one of them in terms of casting,
2:27
Speaker 1: and what a great choice, because I feel like without you,
2:32
Speaker 1: first of all, it was you know, terrifying and depressing
2:36
Speaker 1: and upsetting, but having your point of view was brilliant
2:41
Speaker 1: and in a way sort of just so helpful because
2:45
Speaker 1: how does this happen? Right? This craziness and our listeners,
2:50
Speaker 1: whether or not you guys have watched your this is
2:54
Speaker 1: not something that you won't be able to follow because
2:57
Speaker 1: happily we're talking to Natasha, who is is a certified
3:01
Speaker 1: sex therapist and licensed marriage family therapists. Right, so you've
3:06
Speaker 1: spent decades on this.
3:10
Speaker 2: I'm thirty thirty years in Wow.
3:13
Speaker 1: We're gonna have to talk afterwards. Maybe we'll exchange numbers.
3:17
Speaker 1: I could use your help, everyone can, right, but I
3:21
Speaker 1: feel like no one more than the people that had
3:24
Speaker 1: been through the nightmare that was Jody Hildebrant. Yeah, okay,
3:27
Speaker 1: so tell me I was unclear you met Jody or
3:32
Speaker 1: I know you have clients that left Jody and needed
3:35
Speaker 1: you just to help, you know, get through the trauma
3:38
Speaker 1: of Jody and what she was teaching. Had you ever
3:41
Speaker 1: met her?
3:42
Speaker 2: I have never met her in person?
3:43
Speaker 1: Okay, lucky you, yes, but in terms of hearing you
3:47
Speaker 1: know her clients are her former clients. Did you have
3:50
Speaker 1: a lot of them? And again a lot of this,
3:52
Speaker 1: you guys will be answered in the dock, but I
3:54
Speaker 1: could just talk about it forever. So and did they
3:56
Speaker 1: have similar stories?
3:58
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I've met with quite a few. I mean,
4:02
Speaker 2: I would say more than fifteen or twenty clients personally
4:06
Speaker 2: that have been affected by her practices, and then anecdotally
4:10
Speaker 2: just with other professionals and other colleagues of mine who
4:13
Speaker 2: have also had a lot of people coming after that
4:18
Speaker 2: kind of service is offered. And I think one of
4:21
Speaker 2: the things I want to say really clearly is that
4:24
Speaker 2: although Jodie Hildebrandt definitely took it to an extreme that
4:27
Speaker 2: I don't think is as likely for as many professionals.
4:31
Speaker 2: I do consider her a bit of a dime a
4:33
Speaker 2: dozen problem in space.
4:35
Speaker 1: Are you serious?
4:36
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, yeah. I mean we have like Maurice Harker
4:39
Speaker 2: who's running Sense of Healiman that that site is still
4:42
Speaker 2: up that hasn't been shut down by regulatory boards or
4:47
Speaker 2: the state of Utah. And I also come from a
4:49
Speaker 2: history of living in Wichita, Kansas for over a decade
4:52
Speaker 2: where it was very evangelical. So this is not just
4:55
Speaker 2: a Mormon problem. This is a conservative religious problem right
4:59
Speaker 2: in regard to to this porn panic that gets infiltrated
5:05
Speaker 2: by clergy members usually you know, prophets and bishops and
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Speaker 2: priests and pastors and you know who are talking big,
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Speaker 2: big consequence type stuff when it comes to people's sexuality
5:16
Speaker 2: and how they express their sexuality. And then Christian or
5:19
Speaker 2: religious or Mormon or Jewish or Catholic, you know, therapists
5:24
Speaker 2: who are not able to unwind their own religious bias
5:29
Speaker 2: fall into these kinds of narratives very, very readily. I mean,
5:35
Speaker 2: the porn addiction model is alive and well, especially in
5:39
Speaker 2: religious communities, and it's it's a debunked model. It's not
5:44
Speaker 2: an effective model. It's not supported by any type of
5:48
Speaker 2: association that is that has any weight in its association.
5:54
Speaker 1: Well, I'm relieved to hear you say that, Yeah, this
5:57
Speaker 1: is a way.
5:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is an extreme example of something that's happening
6:02
Speaker 2: on the regular and people are being harmed by religiously biased,
6:07
Speaker 2: non trained, especially in the sexuality field therapists. It's happening
6:11
Speaker 2: all over the place.
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Speaker 1: You know, Natasha, I thought back to something that happened
6:15
Speaker 1: to me when I was young, which this is not
6:18
Speaker 1: about me, but that really affected I think for so
6:23
Speaker 1: many years my sexuality, and it was nothing like a
6:25
Speaker 1: Jodie Hildebrant. It was just the shape, this shame based
6:29
Speaker 1: message that I got and once, so I can only
6:33
Speaker 1: imagine having And I grew up Jewish and we didn't
6:37
Speaker 1: talk about a lot about this, and certainly I've had
6:39
Speaker 1: my share of therapist and I never felt shamed by
6:42
Speaker 1: my sexuality. But that happened once to me, and I
6:46
Speaker 1: think it affected me and my sexuality for years and
6:50
Speaker 1: years and years. So I can only imagine having, you know,
6:55
Speaker 1: this kind of rhetoric thrown at you, this shame based rhetoric.
7:00
Speaker 1: It's just criminal. Which obviously she's in jail now, so
7:05
Speaker 1: you know.
7:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, although it's not criminal, unfortunate.
7:09
Speaker 1: Right, it feels criminal, right, right, It's not right.
7:12
Speaker 2: To right shame people in a therapy type setting, and
7:16
Speaker 2: it's very difficult and even with the Supreme Court, you know,
7:19
Speaker 2: just recently talking about therapy speech is free speech instead
7:23
Speaker 2: of trained speech. You can see how that, yeah, or
7:27
Speaker 2: open right, or a lot of therapists to basically function
7:31
Speaker 2: from their own religious bias instead of their training, which
7:35
Speaker 2: are basic training, basic ethics. One oh one in any
7:39
Speaker 2: type of therapy program is to leave your religious bias at.
7:43
Speaker 1: The bable bias right to write.
7:46
Speaker 2: Which grunted is impossible. I mean, we are all biased
7:50
Speaker 2: individuals in some way or another. But there's a lot
7:52
Speaker 2: of work and ethical treatment that a practitioner should be
7:57
Speaker 2: really you know, thinking about their own positions, how they
8:00
Speaker 2: come forward and when these churches and the reason that
8:05
Speaker 2: a lot of these the reason why Jodie Hildebrank could
8:07
Speaker 2: be as successful as she was is that she was
8:10
Speaker 2: supported indirectly by the Church of US Christ of Latter
8:13
Speaker 2: day Saints, akay, the Mormon Church, right. And I saw
8:15
Speaker 2: this also in the big kind of mega churches and
8:19
Speaker 2: evangelical kansas. I saw it in the Lutheran and Catholic
8:22
Speaker 2: churches when I lived in Wisconsin and Michigan. And so
8:26
Speaker 2: it's this idea that instead of really looking at our
8:29
Speaker 2: ethics and our regulatory boards to manage how we practice,
8:34
Speaker 2: we look at our religious leaders, and the Mormon Church
8:37
Speaker 2: in particular specifically looks for therapists who are not going
8:42
Speaker 2: to challenge their doctrine, their ideas. And when the church
8:46
Speaker 2: basically says, you know, you can't be homosexual, you can't
8:50
Speaker 2: be you know, non monogamous, you can't be looking at porn.
8:53
Speaker 2: You can't be having premarital sex. You can't be masturbating.
8:57
Speaker 2: I mean that is so, that is right. And you've
9:00
Speaker 2: got therapists who are crazy and their treatment plans saying
9:03
Speaker 2: things like working on not masturbating as part of the goal.
9:06
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Religious so scary to walk around feeling
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Speaker 1: such shame right.
9:14
Speaker 2: Of normal human sexual diversity issues, right, and this is
9:19
Speaker 2: the challenge we have. And so I understand that Jody
9:24
Speaker 2: Hildebrant brings a lot of like, you know, awe and
9:27
Speaker 2: like wow, and I can't believe this happened, and it
9:30
Speaker 2: seems so extreme. But when I'm hoping if people are
9:33
Speaker 2: listening to me, is like, if you come from any
9:35
Speaker 2: religious background, some of this happened to you too, right,
9:39
Speaker 2: and this is much more common. Maybe we don't have
9:42
Speaker 2: marks on our hands and legs. Maybe we weren't strapped
9:45
Speaker 2: by duct tape like this, you know, this poor young
9:48
Speaker 2: person was. But all of us have been in a
9:51
Speaker 2: lot of ways spiritually and sexually abused psychologically as far
9:55
Speaker 2: as feeling like we need to bypass our own identities,
10:00
Speaker 2: our own eroticism.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think about friends I have that
10:05
Speaker 1: are Catholic, or church. And I'm not commenting on anybody's religion,
10:12
Speaker 1: believe me, but I just you're reminding me of times
10:15
Speaker 1: that friends of mine have used let's say, elders in
10:18
Speaker 1: the church as sort of therapists, right, So I would
10:22
Speaker 1: think that that's that's a little scary, right, Like, I've
10:26
Speaker 1: been in therapy for so many years and I feel
10:30
Speaker 1: no judgment and no bias. I mean, you're saying that
10:34
Speaker 1: therapists obviously have biased but I don't feel that from
10:37
Speaker 1: my therapist. Just seems so contrary to everything that therapy
10:42
Speaker 1: tries to be has been for me. So yeah, tell
10:46
Speaker 1: me how you were how you first realized that Jodie
10:51
Speaker 1: was bad news? What were you hearing that was sort
10:54
Speaker 1: of common?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I've been involved in the Utah scene
10:58
Speaker 2: for most of my career, mainly because of my faith
11:00
Speaker 2: background and I grew up.
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Speaker 1: Now, that's what I was about to thank you for
11:03
Speaker 1: saying that. I was about to ask you, and can
11:06
Speaker 1: I ask you something personal? I don't want to totally.
11:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I'm uncomfortable, I'll let you know, but you can.
11:12
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I should your therapist, you would know when
11:14
Speaker 1: to set your boundary. So but My question is where
11:18
Speaker 1: are you now? Did you is it called X communicator
11:21
Speaker 1: or is it did you leave the Mormon Church? Are
11:23
Speaker 1: you still part of the Mormon Church now?
11:25
Speaker 2: I was formally excommunicated in twenty twenty one, specifically for
11:29
Speaker 2: a lot of the sexual advocacy work that I was
11:31
Speaker 2: being very public about.
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Speaker 1: How old were you? May I ask that?
11:35
Speaker 2: So this was four years ago. I'm fifty three now,
11:38
Speaker 2: so forty nine.
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Speaker 1: Wow, that's recent. So you you were doing therapy for
11:42
Speaker 1: thirty years as a member of the Mormon Church. That
11:47
Speaker 1: is so, and still you were able to separate that out.
11:51
Speaker 1: That must have been very challenging.
11:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a whole journey. You know, I started
11:56
Speaker 2: very young. I did not follow the classic Mormon timeline
11:59
Speaker 2: ofting married and having children. I did actually go to
12:02
Speaker 2: I got my education and became a licensed therapist intentionally
12:07
Speaker 2: before I had children, so that I would be able
12:10
Speaker 2: to be more flexible with the whole you know, kind
12:13
Speaker 2: of directions that we get as women in the Mormon
12:15
Speaker 2: Church to stay at home with our children. That's kind
12:17
Speaker 2: of like seen as the ideal righteous thing to do
12:20
Speaker 2: instead of having a career. So that's a whole other
12:24
Speaker 2: gender type of thing that's happening, which is also interesting
12:27
Speaker 2: to see Jodie Hildebrant being a female, you know and
12:30
Speaker 2: having the success that she had when a lot of
12:33
Speaker 2: times that's discouraged in the Mormon church is not to
12:36
Speaker 2: be so career focused as a woman in particular. So anyways,
12:40
Speaker 2: I did that. So yes, I'm like twenty three years old,
12:43
Speaker 2: twenty five years old, you know, becoming a little baby
12:45
Speaker 2: therapist and very entrenched in my own religious upbringing and
12:49
Speaker 2: belief system and loved my faith, you know, and found
12:54
Speaker 2: it very useful to me at the time. I mean,
12:56
Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of critical thinking skills and
12:58
Speaker 2: at the time, yeah, as far as so then having
13:02
Speaker 2: to you know, be confronted with people who did not
13:06
Speaker 2: fit my faith, communities, values system, people who are having
13:10
Speaker 2: sex outside of marriage, gay people, trans people, women who
13:15
Speaker 2: wanted to be feminist and have their careers, but all
13:18
Speaker 2: within the primarily of the Mormon community, is where I,
13:21
Speaker 2: you know, saw eighty to ninety percent of my clients.
13:24
Speaker 1: I have to be careful because I could just grill you,
13:28
Speaker 1: well maybe grilled, but like I just want to know
13:29
Speaker 1: more about you and your background and house. That's a
13:33
Speaker 1: whole other. I feel like that's that's maybe you'll come
13:36
Speaker 1: back for that because I find it absolutely fascinating. So
13:39
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to stick. Okay, Jody built, as
13:44
Speaker 1: you know, a massive following. What do you think her
13:49
Speaker 1: greatest tactic? What was the hook? How did she get
13:52
Speaker 1: so many people on the line for such madness?
13:57
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I think one of them, I think guilt.
13:59
Speaker 2: Maybe one of the things that she did which is
14:01
Speaker 2: really unethical is to promise results that were aligned with
14:08
Speaker 2: church doctrine. Right, So, if you think about how this
14:13
Speaker 2: the pornography dilemma runs so deep in the Mormon psyche.
14:18
Speaker 2: First of all, we really expect people to fit in
14:21
Speaker 2: just a very very tight box of what you're what
14:24
Speaker 2: healthy or worthy sexuality can look like.
14:27
Speaker 1: Right.
14:28
Speaker 2: It is it almost impossible for anybody to actually be
14:30
Speaker 2: in there authentically, right. So and so then you have
14:35
Speaker 2: all this erotic energy that's really kind of in a
14:38
Speaker 2: lot of ways castrated, and a couple a lot many
14:42
Speaker 2: times doesn't know how to talk about sex, doesn't know
14:45
Speaker 2: how to have good sex, doesn't know how to have
14:48
Speaker 2: even the sexual language to negotiate their sexuality together. And pornography,
14:54
Speaker 2: erotic materials are very accessible, and they're primarily used to
15:00
Speaker 2: for people to masturbate, and when people are feeling lonely
15:03
Speaker 2: in their relationships or just libido discrepancies, erotic discrepancies five
15:08
Speaker 2: hundred thousand reasons that are actually quite healthy for people
15:11
Speaker 2: to turn to solo sexuality, which you know, ak's masturbation,
15:15
Speaker 2: and so people will use erotic materials to masturbate. That's
15:18
Speaker 2: what most people are using pornograph.
15:21
Speaker 1: I think that even now, I have shame around it. Yeah,
15:24
Speaker 1: and I have now, And you know, I think about Ethan,
15:30
Speaker 1: who is listeners. I'm sure you've seen the doc, but
15:33
Speaker 1: if not, this sweet young man who was newly married
15:39
Speaker 1: and put through the ringer. I mean, I even I'm sorry,
15:43
Speaker 1: not that it matters, but like his face looks so
15:46
Speaker 1: you can almost see the shame. His face was so
15:49
Speaker 1: sweet and rite Ethan, that was from what I remember,
15:53
Speaker 1: and the shame in his when he was describing porn
15:57
Speaker 1: and the wife leaving him, it's just heartbreaking.
16:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, awful, right, And that's what these churches do. And
16:07
Speaker 2: again I'm not trying to be anti religion. Like I said,
16:10
Speaker 2: I've been religious my whole life until they kicked me out.
16:26
Speaker 1: Do you still consider yourself Mormon. See, I can't help it.
16:29
Speaker 1: I can't help it. I'm sorry. I have to like
16:31
Speaker 1: try to talk about the doc.
16:32
Speaker 2: No, that's okay. I myself as Mormon, although they wouldn't
16:36
Speaker 2: want me to identify that way, and although I wouldn't
16:40
Speaker 2: identify as a traditional or legalistic believer, I would say
16:46
Speaker 2: abstract in my beliefs, I've become much more spiritual than
16:49
Speaker 2: I would say, you know, following certain dogma. But there
16:52
Speaker 2: was a lot of spirituality that I found a value
16:55
Speaker 2: in my upbringing and that I've taken with me. So yeah,
17:00
Speaker 2: But you know, when you talk about this young man,
17:01
Speaker 2: that was my experiences. These really good people, like really
17:07
Speaker 2: terrible trying to do their best, trying to be the
17:10
Speaker 2: best dads or moms or you know, church members, and
17:14
Speaker 2: they're volunteering their time, and she.
17:16
Speaker 1: Took his daughter from him, Jody, that's the best people.
17:20
Speaker 1: Disgusting And because.
17:22
Speaker 2: This inability for us to have any tolerance for solo sexuality,
17:27
Speaker 2: we cannot touch our own bodies. This is this is Christianity,
17:31
Speaker 2: this is Judaism, this is is it?
17:34
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I'm not a religious Jew,
17:36
Speaker 1: but I guess that makes sense if I.
17:37
Speaker 2: Think if you go into the Orthodox, yes, that's all
17:41
Speaker 2: of these religions right, right, there is this inability to
17:46
Speaker 2: really be sexual with yourself and your sexuality. I call
17:50
Speaker 2: it ownership model is really trickled down into this. Everybody
17:54
Speaker 2: else owns your sexuality. God owns it, your parents own it,
17:58
Speaker 2: your religious leaders own it. Your future spouse even if
18:01
Speaker 2: you haven't met them, own it. So then they can
18:03
Speaker 2: be mad if you had some premarital experiences because you
18:06
Speaker 2: were supposed to hold out for them, right, pretty own
18:09
Speaker 2: sexuality instead of yourself, right, Yeah, already sets everybody up
18:14
Speaker 2: for sexual failure, for erotic sexual failure, especially relationally, because
18:19
Speaker 2: if you can't be in touch with yourself, how in
18:21
Speaker 2: the heck are you supposed to be in touch with
18:22
Speaker 2: another person. So these communities are rife with sexual shame,
18:28
Speaker 2: purity cultures, and other terms that's used a lot to
18:31
Speaker 2: basically contain people in containers that were never meant to
18:36
Speaker 2: be human containers. And therefore everybody's failing. Everybody's failing.
18:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like even as you're talking, I mean I remember
18:45
Speaker 1: as a teenager, you know, sneaking magazines into a bathroom
18:49
Speaker 1: and feeling such shame around it, right.
18:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, asking a question, Yeah, like I can't ask that question.
18:57
Speaker 2: And so yeah, that's what I was seeing so much,
19:00
Speaker 2: which is that people, really great people, really great couples
19:02
Speaker 2: who otherwise are getting along pretty well or are are
19:06
Speaker 2: you know, parenting well or doing you know, they're doing
19:09
Speaker 2: their goals and they're going to church and they're having
19:11
Speaker 2: their families. But because pornography enters the picture now, especially
19:15
Speaker 2: in a heterosexual relationship, the woman is trained by the
19:19
Speaker 2: religion to see that as the biggest threat of all time.
19:23
Speaker 2: And now you're potentially married to an addict, You're married
19:26
Speaker 2: to somebody who's out of control, somebody deviant or like right,
19:30
Speaker 2: a person is a threat to your children, who's a
19:34
Speaker 2: threat to your family system, who's a threat to your marriage?
19:38
Speaker 2: And it's so gendered because oftentimes, when I saw it
19:41
Speaker 2: that the woman was the one who was looking at pornography,
19:44
Speaker 2: the religious man didn't usually have such an issue with it,
19:47
Speaker 2: and it was actually a way, once we could talk
19:49
Speaker 2: about it, that they could actually enhance their eroticism. But
19:52
Speaker 2: when it hit this other gender norm, which is the
19:56
Speaker 2: husband is looking interesting, is right, And it falls into
19:59
Speaker 2: this this whole gendered war that we have about how men,
20:03
Speaker 2: and we do this outside of religion too, right, we
20:05
Speaker 2: talk about men in some really horrible ways. And granted
20:08
Speaker 2: sometimes men have earned that reputation, but a lot of times,
20:12
Speaker 2: these really great, good men who are just trying to
20:14
Speaker 2: be good church members, husbands, fathers, and are really doing
20:19
Speaker 2: a great job are seen as perverse, objectifying, thinking only
20:23
Speaker 2: with their dicks, and so they feel awful. And then
20:26
Speaker 2: the woman is kind of propped up by the church
20:29
Speaker 2: as the righteous one. We've got to help her, We've
20:32
Speaker 2: got to, you know, keep her away from this horrible
20:35
Speaker 2: man who's doing these horrible, perverse things. Yes, and you
20:39
Speaker 2: can see then why Jodie Hildebrandt had so much power,
20:42
Speaker 2: because it wasn't so key love power. She tapped into
20:46
Speaker 2: the church's power.
20:47
Speaker 1: I would think that as on opposite ends of the spectrum,
20:51
Speaker 1: you have tapped in two in the opposite way, right
20:55
Speaker 1: in the best way into communities where this is so pervasive.
21:01
Speaker 1: I don't even know how you have time to sit
21:03
Speaker 1: down with me today, So I'm sure your phone does
21:06
Speaker 1: not stop ringing because just you know, my own experience,
21:11
Speaker 1: which was nothing like this, but there is so much
21:13
Speaker 1: shame around around all of that. And you know, I
21:17
Speaker 1: think about how Ruby, Frankie and her husband was so
21:24
Speaker 1: like open to Jody, and I don't know if that's
21:27
Speaker 1: the word, but they were so I don't even know
21:29
Speaker 1: if it was susceptible because they were just horrible humans.
21:31
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that you, as a therapist can say
21:33
Speaker 1: they weren't horrible humans. Maybe their background or however you
21:37
Speaker 1: see them, you know, set this up. But the misery
21:41
Speaker 1: they caused, the abuse that they practiced, and could Jody
21:46
Speaker 1: sort of see an in there was Jody, do you
21:48
Speaker 1: think I feel like, no, you maybe you'll say no,
21:53
Speaker 1: but intrinsically evil. I hate her, So there's that after
21:56
Speaker 1: watching this, and that's not healthy either. I hate her
21:59
Speaker 1: and I hate Ruby because it's the kid thing, right
22:01
Speaker 1: that just yeah, it kills you. So but did you
22:05
Speaker 1: think that Jodie saw something in Ruby that could be manipulated?
22:09
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that they wanted each other's followings, right,
22:12
Speaker 1: even their social media followings, and they use each other
22:15
Speaker 1: to create a business. But what was it that she
22:19
Speaker 1: maybe saw in Ruby that she thought she was like,
22:21
Speaker 1: this will this is perfect, this is this is you
22:25
Speaker 1: know a great partner for me.
22:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I would agree. I think that they were
22:28
Speaker 2: both very successful social media influencers, and anytime you can
22:32
Speaker 2: connect with another influencer, I mean I do that as well.
22:34
Speaker 2: You know, that's necessarily inherently an evil thing. It's just
22:37
Speaker 2: kind of like a collaboration. But I do think that
22:40
Speaker 2: there was an intrinsic vulnerability there for both of them.
22:44
Speaker 2: You know, I do think, although I agree with you
22:47
Speaker 2: that these actions were evil, I don't, you know, I
22:49
Speaker 2: don't have an evil meter for people.
22:51
Speaker 1: I know, and I shouldn't. I'm trying, well.
22:53
Speaker 2: Okay, but I think what happened. We see this all
22:56
Speaker 2: the time, and it's so much easier to see it
22:58
Speaker 2: and another person's religious upbringing. Right, so when nine to
23:02
Speaker 2: eleven happens, for example, we're all like, well, look at
23:05
Speaker 2: all these scriptures that the Islamic people have about destruction.
23:09
Speaker 2: But we have those in the Bible too, you know,
23:12
Speaker 2: and we so it's harder to look at your own people,
23:15
Speaker 2: your own community, your own group, and it's easier to
23:18
Speaker 2: other all the other people. But these her abilities are
23:22
Speaker 2: very common, right, So for Jody to be to see
23:26
Speaker 2: herself as a therapist, who is I'm not going to
23:29
Speaker 2: follow exactly what the therapy community wants because I know
23:33
Speaker 2: better because my church is telling me that I know better,
23:37
Speaker 2: and this is the way, not the therapy way, is
23:40
Speaker 2: not the way. The church way is the way to
23:42
Speaker 2: be the therapist.
23:43
Speaker 1: But does the Mormon church? But the violence look okay?
23:46
Speaker 1: So the fact that she was able to it, it
23:50
Speaker 1: feels like they were partnered up in the abuse. So again,
23:55
Speaker 1: listeners who've seen the doc probably if they haven't known
23:59
Speaker 1: the story, but they it feels like they together. Right.
24:02
Speaker 1: So Ruby and Jody abused these children, and you guys,
24:09
Speaker 1: when you watch her, if you watch it, it's so hard.
24:12
Speaker 1: It's so hard to see that poor little boy knocking
24:14
Speaker 1: on that door, emaciated and with his wrist bound. But
24:17
Speaker 1: my question is that doesn't feel like it's a Mormon thing,
24:21
Speaker 1: Like that level of abusing children is not a religious thing.
24:25
Speaker 1: I mean, they found each other and they were both
24:28
Speaker 1: capable of these heinous acts. Do you think they saw
24:31
Speaker 1: something at each other.
24:32
Speaker 2: More complicated than seeing it in each other? And although
24:35
Speaker 2: I would agree, I don't think that the pope or
24:38
Speaker 2: the prophet or any you know, major leader would say yes,
24:42
Speaker 2: it's okay to abuse children physically. Boy, boy, are they
24:47
Speaker 2: role modeling psychological abuse? They are in psychological abuse. The
24:52
Speaker 2: churches that basically say you're evil, you're pernicious to your perverse,
24:57
Speaker 2: if you're gay, if you're trans, if you're premar at
24:59
Speaker 2: all sex person. They use very provocative, horrific language that,
25:04
Speaker 2: as you say, just one time in a space that
25:08
Speaker 2: downloaded for you in a way that you had to
25:11
Speaker 2: you know, work through that and that at once. And
25:14
Speaker 2: we are growing up in churches hearing this kind of
25:17
Speaker 2: stuff on the weekly.
25:18
Speaker 1: Right. They both grew up Mormon, right, both Jody and Ruby,
25:22
Speaker 1: and so they had there was already an indoctrination. But
25:27
Speaker 1: tell me how you think, Like, Okay, so this is
25:31
Speaker 1: what you're going to do, Ruby, or this is what
25:33
Speaker 1: we're gonna do Jody. We're going to tie them, we're
25:35
Speaker 1: going to tire our children up, and we're going to
25:39
Speaker 1: starve them and we're going to torture them. There's where
25:44
Speaker 1: is God? How do you? How did how did they
25:48
Speaker 1: justify it? Like to me, Ruby and Jody, again, I
25:51
Speaker 1: know people aren't evil, their acts were evil, but how
25:54
Speaker 1: did they make that? Okay? Like I look at these women,
25:57
Speaker 1: like you must know that this is a use right.
26:00
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that this is church based that any
26:04
Speaker 1: part of the Mormon Church condone, you know, tying your
26:07
Speaker 1: kids up with duct tape and torturing.
26:09
Speaker 2: That's not. However, the reason why I place the blame
26:15
Speaker 2: on the churches and not just the Mormon Church as
26:18
Speaker 2: well as the individuals is because this doesn't usually happen overnight.
26:23
Speaker 2: This is kind of like the classic metaphor of that.
26:25
Speaker 2: You know, if you're going to boil frogs, if you
26:27
Speaker 2: put them in super hot water, they're going to jump
26:29
Speaker 2: right out. But if you put them in the pot
26:31
Speaker 2: and then you you know, warm it up and warm
26:34
Speaker 2: it up and warm it up, they kind of stop
26:36
Speaker 2: noticing and they die. And so that that's a that's
26:39
Speaker 2: a pretty good metaphor for I think what happens for
26:42
Speaker 2: any religious fanatics, you know, whether it's people you know,
26:45
Speaker 2: we have you know, we have the day Bells, we
26:47
Speaker 2: have and not just the Mormons, and we have all
26:50
Speaker 2: kinds of issues that are in these religious communities that
26:53
Speaker 2: obviously that the religious community is going to go, oh,
26:55
Speaker 2: they're an outlier. They're an outlier, and they are they
26:58
Speaker 2: are outliers. At the same time, they wouldn't have become
27:02
Speaker 2: those outliers without of this some of this foundational indoctrination.
27:06
Speaker 1: Or was it something in them that was that something
27:11
Speaker 1: in let's say, Ruby, how not? I don't almost, I
27:14
Speaker 1: can't imagine. I think it's a very teeny tiny percentage.
27:18
Speaker 1: I hope of mothers capable of that. I'm not saying
27:22
Speaker 1: they don't exist. They obviously do. But what was it
27:25
Speaker 1: in her? Do you think it was just the Mormon
27:27
Speaker 1: indoctrination or trying to please Jody or was there something
27:31
Speaker 1: in her that was getting off on torturing these poor
27:34
Speaker 1: children and Jody as well, like the violence of it all,
27:38
Speaker 1: even with everything that they had been taught. You know,
27:42
Speaker 1: how did that become okay? How does a mother get
27:45
Speaker 1: to that point? What was it inside of her that
27:48
Speaker 1: made that okay? Or didn't you know, didn't stop her? Well?
27:53
Speaker 2: I do think that all of us have a capacity
27:58
Speaker 2: for good and all of us have the capacity for evil.
28:02
Speaker 2: And I don't think in the moment if you would
28:04
Speaker 2: have asked her are you being evil? I think she
28:07
Speaker 2: would have had some type of And it's so interesting
28:09
Speaker 2: that they talk about distortion so much, because yeah, right, wow,
28:14
Speaker 2: are you all having some disdaining right right, It is
28:18
Speaker 2: distorted thinking and you kind of have it make sense.
28:20
Speaker 2: This is psychologically, like we know through groupthink studies, the
28:24
Speaker 2: Stanford study with the people who were incarcerated, you know,
28:27
Speaker 2: the students, they turned on each other within days. So
28:30
Speaker 2: we know that we as humans have capacity for evil
28:33
Speaker 2: if we sure justified somehow.
28:36
Speaker 1: But do you think that it was that that they
28:37
Speaker 1: felt justified or that they were again like they have
28:41
Speaker 1: that met like they were almost enjoying it. Because I
28:45
Speaker 1: remember before we delved in in terms of the doc,
28:49
Speaker 1: I remember watching Ruby sitting in front of her little
28:52
Speaker 1: girl and wanted to cut off the head of the
28:55
Speaker 1: stuffed animal. Right she was She had already had this
28:59
Speaker 1: repation for you know, hard parenting, and that was a
29:04
Speaker 1: turn off for me just even watching it. But there's
29:07
Speaker 1: this again. I don't know what word to use help me, Tatasha,
29:11
Speaker 1: but this ability for a mother to do that feels
29:14
Speaker 1: to me like there's something wrong in there, out above
29:17
Speaker 1: and beyond what her religion has taught her to be
29:21
Speaker 1: able to stomach hurting your children feels like it had
29:24
Speaker 1: to come from also. I don't know if it was
29:26
Speaker 1: her upbringing or you know, something else. Do you think
29:31
Speaker 1: it's something else.
29:31
Speaker 2: Do you think it's I think that a lot of
29:34
Speaker 2: us can find pleasure when we feel justified, when we
29:38
Speaker 2: feel just scary scary, feel pleasure because we think we're
29:43
Speaker 2: in the right.
29:44
Speaker 1: Like the devil. Did she think the devil was in them?
29:46
Speaker 1: You think, oh, yeah.
29:47
Speaker 2: She basically would say those things, right, Yeah, I know
29:50
Speaker 2: she would. And so's when she's threatening her children. And
29:54
Speaker 2: this is giving her a lot of credit, which I
29:56
Speaker 2: don't really want to do either, because I think they
29:59
Speaker 2: absolutely to be held responsible regardless of the indoctrination, and
30:02
Speaker 2: doctrination does not give you an excuse to be evil, right,
30:06
Speaker 2: and yes, accountable for those us. But yes, I do
30:10
Speaker 2: think that when you have this mindset that what really matters,
30:14
Speaker 2: what really matters, Jennifer, is that we all make it
30:17
Speaker 2: to the celestial Kingdom or heaven or whatever. That thing
30:22
Speaker 2: that's really that's where the most of our existence is
30:26
Speaker 2: going to be is in the afterlife. You can justify
30:29
Speaker 2: a lot in the short amount of mortal life to
30:32
Speaker 2: make sure you get there, right, And I mean, if
30:37
Speaker 2: we're going to get really kind of dark, I mean
30:39
Speaker 2: I've known of people like, for example, in the Mormon Church,
30:42
Speaker 2: we have this doctrine about the age of accountability. It's
30:45
Speaker 2: an eight eight years old. At eight years old, you
30:48
Speaker 2: become accountable for your actions. Before that, you're seen as innocent.
30:52
Speaker 2: And there are stories again outliers and the Mormon Church
30:55
Speaker 2: would never say you should do this, but there are
30:57
Speaker 2: people who will kill their children and kill themselves when
31:01
Speaker 2: their children are coming to that age of eight because
31:04
Speaker 2: they're like, well, I would rather just be done with
31:07
Speaker 2: this life now and save my innocent child as they
31:10
Speaker 2: are and let them get to Heaven before they turn
31:14
Speaker 2: this age of accountability, so that then we made it
31:18
Speaker 2: in the real in the real existence that really matters.
31:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's yeah.
31:22
Speaker 2: When you think of that, psychologically, you can just buy
31:26
Speaker 2: all kinds of horrific things. And the Bible and of
31:29
Speaker 2: itself has the whole you know, spare the rod, spoil
31:33
Speaker 2: the child scripture, and that was very much in my
31:36
Speaker 2: evangelical world with all my evangelical neighbors. That was talked
31:39
Speaker 2: about a lot. And that's how you know, beatings are
31:43
Speaker 2: justified spankings. And then of course the psychological abuse right
31:48
Speaker 2: of like you're going to go to hell. I mean,
31:50
Speaker 2: this is where I'd like for people to pause for
31:52
Speaker 2: a minute. Is it psychologically healthy? And many of us
31:56
Speaker 2: do this, many of us who are like just shocked
31:58
Speaker 2: that they would tie these kids up. But many of
32:02
Speaker 2: us are teaching our young, impressionable children that they have
32:06
Speaker 2: two voyeurs that are constantly watching them, God and Satan.
32:12
Speaker 2: We're just teaching them that as a reocity and for
32:16
Speaker 2: a little brain that already starts you in a space
32:20
Speaker 2: where you have no privacy because God can always know
32:23
Speaker 2: what you're thinking. Satan is always trying to tempt you
32:26
Speaker 2: horrible things. So you're walking the world already feeling like
32:30
Speaker 2: you're completely all, always exposed. Wow, that's psychologically abusive.
32:37
Speaker 1: Yes, it's most certainly.
32:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, you a little child. But would we see ourselves
32:42
Speaker 2: as psychologically abusive? No one. Does it give us pleasure
32:45
Speaker 2: to teach our children about God and Jesus and Satan
32:48
Speaker 2: on all those things, Yes, because we think we're doing
32:50
Speaker 2: something for their best behalf. Well.
32:54
Speaker 1: I remember Jodie saying when she was being brought to
32:58
Speaker 1: prison that she thought that it was still like a journey,
33:02
Speaker 1: God's journey, right.
33:04
Speaker 2: It was part of their trials. This is when they're
33:07
Speaker 2: held accountable, when they're really forced to look at what
33:09
Speaker 2: they're doing, and they can't shift gears because you know,
33:13
Speaker 2: it's very hard to change your mind about things, very
33:16
Speaker 2: very challenging to do them.
33:17
Speaker 1: Do you think she has now now that she's I
33:20
Speaker 1: doubt know, I really doubt it.
33:22
Speaker 2: I think that they feel very justified. This is part
33:25
Speaker 2: of their trial. People don't really understand. This is also
33:28
Speaker 2: a very common theme in religion and religious stories is
33:32
Speaker 2: the martyr, the person who's you know, everybody makes fun
33:35
Speaker 2: of because what they're saying, which is all those kind
33:39
Speaker 2: of supernatural things, people are treating them like they're crazy, right,
33:43
Speaker 2: and all the prophets that are in the Bible were
33:46
Speaker 2: treated kind of like they were crazy by the wider population.
33:50
Speaker 2: God Religio people are like, well see they were really
33:54
Speaker 2: they were martyrs and nobody understood them. And God's ways
33:58
Speaker 2: are not the world's ways, and so you can justify.
34:01
Speaker 1: But Natasha, we watch this. I watched this, and I
34:07
Speaker 1: see it makes complete sense. Everything you're saying. I get.
34:11
Speaker 1: It's just that piece of it that you know, we
34:14
Speaker 1: all come from, let's say, being having some shame around sexuality.
34:18
Speaker 1: I've been through lots of bad things, like most of
34:21
Speaker 1: us have. I'm fifty seven years old, but I still
34:24
Speaker 1: look at this and it feels like was she? It
34:31
Speaker 1: make more sense to me if, like was Jody abused
34:35
Speaker 1: as a child? Was Ruby? Because I know that cycle
34:37
Speaker 1: can repeat itself. I get that they were coming from
34:40
Speaker 1: a place where they really believed in what they were
34:42
Speaker 1: doing right. And when you say that they want to
34:45
Speaker 1: get accepted into eternity and heaven or whatever that looks
34:50
Speaker 1: like in the Mormon religion, I understand that. But please
34:54
Speaker 1: tell me that most Mormons, even being taught that there
34:58
Speaker 1: was something different about Jody and something different about Ruby.
35:02
Speaker 2: Yes, I would say that they are extreme cases. They
35:05
Speaker 2: are the extreme. And I guess what I'm trying to
35:08
Speaker 2: get across is well, we can all ooh in awe
35:11
Speaker 2: about the excess and be like, oh my gosh, none
35:14
Speaker 2: of us would never do that. That's so horrific, because
35:16
Speaker 2: now it's comfortable to other them and not to see
35:21
Speaker 2: ourselves in them. Yes, we're so horrible. And what I'm
35:23
Speaker 2: trying to invite everybody to do is actually, let's not
35:26
Speaker 2: hold them so separate, because when you do that, you
35:29
Speaker 2: have more of a chance of becoming them. So we
35:32
Speaker 2: actually really this as like there it makes sense, and
35:38
Speaker 2: if we're not careful, any of us, right, vulnerable to
35:42
Speaker 2: become an extreme example, right, actually of an indoctrinated type
35:46
Speaker 2: of space where there isn't a lot of critical thinking
35:51
Speaker 2: that's right, right, a lot of conformity that's encouraged. It's
35:55
Speaker 2: a lot of leaders.
35:56
Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm sorry, but also a lot
35:59
Speaker 1: of money.
36:00
Speaker 2: And a lot of money. And I don't think that
36:02
Speaker 2: most people would turn into the Rubies and JODI's, but
36:06
Speaker 2: I do think what is happening so much that I
36:10
Speaker 2: would say it's happening ridiculously so much is that people
36:14
Speaker 2: are turning into the Ethans. And because they are, they're
36:19
Speaker 2: trying to do what's right. They've got these people that
36:21
Speaker 2: seem to have authority, that seem to have keys that
36:24
Speaker 2: are backed by the church.
36:26
Speaker 1: Right.
36:27
Speaker 2: I mean, like, when I'm excommunicated, do you think a
36:29
Speaker 2: bishop is going to refer to me? They're going to
36:33
Speaker 2: look me up and be like, oh, she's not She
36:35
Speaker 2: wouldn't be a good influence on our church, of course, right, Hildebrand. Oh, yeah,
36:39
Speaker 2: she thinks pornography is really bad, and she's she's going
36:42
Speaker 2: to take an addiction model approach, and she's going to
36:45
Speaker 2: you know, take an approach ate totally you know, meets
36:48
Speaker 2: right kind of our belief system. So yes, and she was.
36:52
Speaker 2: This is where her success started was by with tons
36:56
Speaker 2: of referrals from the Mormon Church to her instead of
37:00
Speaker 2: to practitioners who are either not LDS or who are
37:04
Speaker 2: LDS progressive and are not falling for these you know,
37:07
Speaker 2: quack quack alternative types of you know, sources that are
37:13
Speaker 2: not even evidence based.
37:29
Speaker 1: I remember when Jodi was arrested and she was being
37:33
Speaker 1: taken to jail, and she said, don't let the kids
37:34
Speaker 1: around other kids. Don't let these kids around other kids.
37:38
Speaker 1: And I thought that was one moment where I thought, Wow,
37:42
Speaker 1: she really believes this shit, like she believes that these
37:44
Speaker 1: children are evil and so right. That was because for me,
37:50
Speaker 1: that was the disconnect. And I agree with you. I
37:53
Speaker 1: see how what you're saying and that people, if they
37:56
Speaker 1: are they're evil, they're evil. You said that your other them.
38:00
Speaker 1: It feels like it's far away and it can happen.
38:02
Speaker 1: It can have maybe to any of us, but I
38:05
Speaker 1: hope not. But but that sort of like surprised me,
38:10
Speaker 1: and that she really fucking believes that what she's doing
38:12
Speaker 1: is right now this crazy person, and it was hard.
38:16
Speaker 1: That's hard. That's a hard pill to swallow. Like I
38:19
Speaker 1: hate the idea that they're in jail thinking that they're noble,
38:22
Speaker 1: Like I really hope that they are in jail looking
38:26
Speaker 1: at what they did with deep and utter regret and remorse.
38:29
Speaker 1: Do you think that they are?
38:31
Speaker 2: I from what I can tell, I mean, you know,
38:34
Speaker 2: I have not interviewed these people. I can't say anything
38:36
Speaker 2: with great you know, I guess confidence. But from what
38:42
Speaker 2: I saw in the post interviews, it seemed like maybe
38:45
Speaker 2: there was more hope of that for Ruby, but it
38:48
Speaker 2: didn't really like Jody was moving in that direction. Wow,
38:54
Speaker 2: you can see the history there, right. I mean, they
38:56
Speaker 2: interview her niece that goes to live with her, because right,
39:00
Speaker 2: because she probably mastered right, I forget what she did.
39:02
Speaker 2: She didn't strong her little Mormon community, which again it
39:06
Speaker 2: doesn't take much. You know, smoke one joint, or you
39:10
Speaker 2: get caught looking at porn, or you have a boyfriend
39:12
Speaker 2: that you know you're heavy petting with, and all of
39:15
Speaker 2: a sudden, the whole community is up in arms that
39:18
Speaker 2: we're about to lose this child to Satan or something.
39:21
Speaker 2: And so they her over to Jodie to help raise
39:24
Speaker 2: her right, extremely abusive. And this is another problem that
39:28
Speaker 2: is systemic, systemic that I don't want us to look
39:32
Speaker 2: away by just saying, oh, these extreme examples, we protect
39:36
Speaker 2: adults over children in our country one percent, including this
39:41
Speaker 2: whole religious freedom thing. Right, we allow parents to teach
39:45
Speaker 2: and to be quite cruel in their parenting styles because
39:50
Speaker 2: of religious freedom. So she went forward, Right, this niece
39:54
Speaker 2: came forward and reported her community did not believe. Yes, right,
39:59
Speaker 2: this is a and this is what we do to children.
40:01
Speaker 2: Oh you're not you're not smart enough, you're not wise enough,
40:05
Speaker 2: You're you're just causing. You just want attention, and we
40:08
Speaker 2: ignore big things that adults are doing to children, all
40:13
Speaker 2: under the guise of religious freedom.
40:15
Speaker 1: That's it. Well, tell me this, how how do how
40:18
Speaker 1: do these kids get to the place where her niece
40:22
Speaker 1: was so in other words, you know, now this has
40:24
Speaker 1: happened to him, this horror show. They've grown up in
40:26
Speaker 1: this this horror show for lack of a better term,
40:29
Speaker 1: And now how do they all How hard is it
40:32
Speaker 1: for you? And I don't know if you see children
40:33
Speaker 1: as well or young adults to get to a place
40:37
Speaker 1: like Jody's niece and she's free. Now it sounds like
40:40
Speaker 1: I hope, so I hope that she feels fulfilled and
40:43
Speaker 1: happy and healthy. But how do the kids get past this?
40:47
Speaker 2: The reality is that most kids are not going to
40:49
Speaker 2: do what the niece did, right. The reality is the
40:51
Speaker 2: kids staying the systems they're raised in, and then they
40:54
Speaker 2: become the next parents in that system for the next
40:57
Speaker 2: Yeah kids. I mean, that's the reality of most communities.
41:01
Speaker 2: And it doesn't even have to be religious community, any community,
41:04
Speaker 2: political communities. You know, if you're raised by Democrats, you're
41:08
Speaker 2: probably gonna be a Democrat. If you're raised by Republicans,
41:10
Speaker 2: you're probably going to be a Republican. Some people shift
41:12
Speaker 2: and make those changes, but the majority don't, and so
41:16
Speaker 2: these kids usually turn into the next the next parents
41:21
Speaker 2: who raise their kids in this religious community as well.
41:25
Speaker 1: You have an uphill battle, my friend.
41:27
Speaker 2: You choose.
41:28
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know how you how do you get
41:31
Speaker 1: these these people that have been doctrinated, indoctrinated to get
41:36
Speaker 1: what is the word extoctrinated? I don't even know how
41:39
Speaker 1: how do you get these messages out of their heads,
41:42
Speaker 1: especially to kids.
41:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, very challenging. Yeah, my favorite work is when they
41:48
Speaker 2: already kind of started that and then they come in
41:50
Speaker 2: for help. Right in religious trauma work, we're doing sexual
41:54
Speaker 2: shame work, We're doing you know, all kinds of things
41:56
Speaker 2: because they're already in that space of wanting to deconstruct.
42:00
Speaker 2: But when I'm working with believers who you know, I
42:03
Speaker 2: also want to respect their values and their beliefs, and
42:07
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not there to destroy their their religious
42:11
Speaker 2: belief system. I'm there to help them with their with
42:13
Speaker 2: their value, with what their goals are. At the same time,
42:17
Speaker 2: if they want sexual health, if that's part of their goals,
42:20
Speaker 2: but they're so limited in the tools that I can
42:23
Speaker 2: offer them because that goes against their values their religion. Right,
42:27
Speaker 2: It's like hitting a wall.
42:28
Speaker 1: But Natasha, what do you do when you know that
42:30
Speaker 1: it's crossed over, Let's say, for a parent into an
42:34
Speaker 1: abusive situation. I don't know how many parents go you
42:38
Speaker 1: deal with that, you know, in terms of the Mormon Church,
42:41
Speaker 1: but in any what do you do when you find
42:43
Speaker 1: out that the parents are, you know, abusing their kids.
42:46
Speaker 1: And I would think that would come out during therapy
42:49
Speaker 1: or maybe not.
42:50
Speaker 2: People are pretty protective, including kids. Kids understand that if
42:55
Speaker 2: they say certain things, it may be the end of
42:58
Speaker 2: their family unit as they know it. And of course
43:00
Speaker 2: I'm a mandated reporter, and so sexual abuse are very
43:04
Speaker 2: you have to report and I have to report, yeah,
43:06
Speaker 2: of course, and psychological abuse is that's reportable and not
43:13
Speaker 2: to really do anything about it. And I think if
43:15
Speaker 2: we went down that road, you know, we already have
43:17
Speaker 2: a foster care system that is not run well and
43:20
Speaker 2: that is you know, busting at the seams, and so
43:24
Speaker 2: psychological abuse will remain I think something that we just
43:28
Speaker 2: all have to kind of deal with. So then my
43:30
Speaker 2: options are to try to, you know, carefully, non judgmentally,
43:37
Speaker 2: question and hopefully get some self awareness going of how
43:41
Speaker 2: some of these tactics may be impacting their children in
43:45
Speaker 2: ways they don't realize.
43:46
Speaker 1: Do you think you could have helped someone like Ruby
43:49
Speaker 1: before it got to the point that it did. Do
43:51
Speaker 1: you think therapy? I won't use, let's not, but do
43:54
Speaker 1: you think that there was help out there? Could Could
43:57
Speaker 1: it have gone differently if she had been in therapy
44:01
Speaker 1: like with someone like you? I mean obviously she never was.
44:04
Speaker 1: But can you help those people that are about to
44:07
Speaker 1: become extreme? Well?
44:08
Speaker 2: I think so.
44:10
Speaker 1: I guess you have to believe that that's this is
44:12
Speaker 1: what you do, yes, I think.
44:14
Speaker 2: So the problem is that it's hard for somebody like
44:18
Speaker 2: Ruby to have access to somebody like me because she's
44:22
Speaker 2: already It's like any religion, people are going to vary widely.
44:27
Speaker 2: You're going to have really orthodox people in the same
44:29
Speaker 2: religion as you have very progressive people in the same religion.
44:32
Speaker 1: Right.
44:32
Speaker 2: Seems to me like she was a bit more on
44:34
Speaker 2: the orthodox side of yes, yes, and you've even raised
44:38
Speaker 2: more orthodox So that's all right a challenge and a
44:40
Speaker 2: lot of these churches, I mean, even the Mormon Church
44:43
Speaker 2: has a history of saying, you know, the field of
44:46
Speaker 2: psychiatry is like an enemy to us. I mean that
44:49
Speaker 2: was a long time ago that they were saying things
44:51
Speaker 2: like that, like in the nineteen fifties or sixties. We
44:54
Speaker 2: do have history, and I see that a lot in Christianity,
44:57
Speaker 2: especially in the more conservative religion. It's like the pastors
45:01
Speaker 2: will actually make you doubt mental health practices, you know,
45:05
Speaker 2: they'll down blow yeah, or you just need to pray her,
45:09
Speaker 2: you just need to be more righteous, you just need
45:10
Speaker 2: to get good of God, and I save you from depression,
45:14
Speaker 2: you know, right, And when that that's not how depression.
45:17
Speaker 1: Works right, right, Yeah.
45:19
Speaker 2: People are left to think, well, it's still me. It's
45:22
Speaker 2: never the church is wrong. I must not be doing
45:25
Speaker 2: something right right right, And it's a self blame right
45:28
Speaker 2: and looking for more and more people. And then there's
45:31
Speaker 2: that guest bias. So you're going to go to a
45:33
Speaker 2: religious therapist who shares your own views and beliefs, and
45:36
Speaker 2: they may not be, you know, watching their own biases
45:39
Speaker 2: and giving up kind of non evidence based, non effective treatment.
45:43
Speaker 2: So if she would have earlier on come to somebody
45:46
Speaker 2: like me that was more.
45:48
Speaker 1: You know, just evidence you would have had it, she
45:50
Speaker 1: maybe would have had a chance. Sure, yeah, I think so.
45:54
Speaker 1: I hope I hope that that's who more people do
45:57
Speaker 1: come to you. So, Natasha, I cannot thank you enough
46:00
Speaker 1: for joining us. You guys, you have to see this
46:02
Speaker 1: documentary and you are you were the one easy part
46:05
Speaker 1: to watch in it, because it's very hard to watch,
46:08
Speaker 1: very sick, it's very dark. Yes, they are. Your community
46:12
Speaker 1: is lucky to have you so and like.
46:15
Speaker 2: Me, you know, I yes, I work with amazing colleagues.
46:18
Speaker 2: I run a group practice inmentry counseling. We have amazing
46:22
Speaker 2: people able to work in that intersection yes, religious trauma,
46:26
Speaker 2: but also holding space for people's religious beliefs if that's
46:29
Speaker 2: what matters to them. Right, And hopefully churches can become
46:33
Speaker 2: more and more trauma informed.
46:35
Speaker 1: Yes, and yes to do the work.
46:37
Speaker 2: To educate their you know, their parishioners on what good
46:41
Speaker 2: mental health looks like and good mental health treatment and
46:45
Speaker 2: good sexual health. So we've got a long way to
46:47
Speaker 2: go in our truth.
46:48
Speaker 1: Yes, amen, Natasha, thank you so much for joining us.
46:52
Speaker 1: Really appreciate you. Please come back. Oh I will have
46:56
Speaker 1: you back. Bye. Thank you.