Latest / Sex Advice for Seniors Podcast / Why Couples Lose Desire (And How to Get It Back) | Dr. Anna Elton

Transcript

Why Couples Lose Desire (And How to Get It Back) | Dr. Anna Elton · Sex Advice for Seniors Podcast

• 0:00
  [music]
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  SPEAKER_01: And a quick note from our friends at Oh My Bod,
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: because sexual wellness deserves attention at every age.
• 0:13
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• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's O-H-M-I-B-O-D dot com.
• 0:20
  [music]
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  SPEAKER_01: Hi, this is Suzanne, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: And today we're talking about one of the most misunderstood parts
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: of later life relationships, which is desire.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And our guest is Dr.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Anna Elton,
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: a licensed marriage and family therapist,
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: clinical sexologist, author of a newly published book,
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: She's a relationship expert whose work explores how intimacy,
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: attraction, and emotional connection evolve across the lifespan.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: She's got more than 15 years of clinical experience and research.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Sex Advice for Seniors.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me here.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this whole project, my book, my research, it's also personal to me.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've been with my husband for 25 years.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: So he is my first subject as subject.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Before I can recommend anything to my clients.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So 25 years is good going.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've lasted about 25 minutes.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering how this all came about then.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I met my husband in high school.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's been 25 years.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And again, ups and downs in a relationship, like any relationships.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: We have three kids.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: We have three boys.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: He promised me a girl three times.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Can't be trusted.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I got the point.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm boy mom.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this is where I was looking at my relationship with my husband.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was looking at my couples coming in to ask for help.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: And what's interesting that I realized that me and my husband were able to maintain
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: that desire through the years, right?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then I started seeing couples who are in their 20s, early 30s, and they have no desire.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: They're in sexless marriages.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it was something fascinating.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking like,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: what am I doing right with my husband that some of the younger couples not doing
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: in their relationships?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when I was going through my PhD in clinical sexology.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: And when I had to pick my topic for dissertation,
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I decided to focus on low desire and mismatched desire in long-term couples.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm curious,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: the word desire often gets misused, I think, and often used alongside arousal.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they are two very,
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: very different things that I think people often mistake one for the other,
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: like not having desire, not being able to get aroused.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: What does desire actually mean?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So desire is the psychological part of things.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's in your head, right?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's when you have the cocktail of different neurotransmitters and hormones
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: and everything that's going on.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's all mixed together, right?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: We have dopamine, dopamine.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Which is the motivation, the persuasion, that's the gas pedal for your desire, right?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: It helps us to feel good and connected and start the process, right?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: We have adrenaline, which helps with fueling that desire.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: We have oxytocin, lavenbundin hormone.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: We have serotonin.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a lot of different things that are going on in our brain for us to feel desire.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: We also have a little bit of stress hormone, the cortisol that's good in early relationships.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: In this honeymoon stage, it can be extremely damaging in long-term relationships.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: When it's the chronic cortisol, it's actually adult's desire.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: So desire in your head is psychological.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Arousal is in your body.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's physiological.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's where you have two separate types of desire.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you have spontaneous desire and you have responsive desire.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: So spontaneous desire, that's when you have desire psychological part first.
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  SPEAKER_00: You have desire in your head.
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  SPEAKER_00: Then you have the physiological part.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: You have the arousal, right?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have the act.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: So with spontaneous desire, it actually starts with connection.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have the arousal and then you have the desire.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, I see.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because often the word spontaneous arousal and responsive arousal also get used in
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: a very similar way to indicate that One of them is more kind of context-based,
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: like responsive arousal is more context-based.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Spontaneous arousal is more like you see somebody and you're like,
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: whoa, I really, you know, am feeling juiced up about this.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: I want this to go somewhere sexual, right?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you often say that desire changes, but it doesn't disappear in long-term relationships.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And what does that actually mean for couples in later life?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Before I even go there, I want to actually challenge the idea of spontaneous desire.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what's interesting,
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: because when I was doing my research,
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about like, what is spontaneous desire, right?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of couples come in and say like, I want to have that spontaneous again.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: I have responsive, right?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, we plan our sex and then we have the responsive and it's great,
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: but I want that excitement.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And when I started thinking back and when I was interviewing couples and
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: when I was thinking back to my relationship, uh,
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Realize that you actually put a lot of work,
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: attention and attention into that spontaneous desire.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually well-orchestrated desire because think about,
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: early on,
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  SPEAKER_00: you meet someone, you're excited about them, you prepare for that date, right?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: For women, you do hair and makeup, you pick your outfit for men.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Probably they also pick the outfit and they shave, they do whatever they need to do, right?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then you also anticipate.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And when you anticipate,
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: it does a lot of legwork for your desire because now you're fantasizing how
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: the night ends, what are you going to do, right?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe even sexting.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of,
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you do a lot of work to have this spontaneous desire in the end of the night.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: In long-term relationships,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: you have half an hour on a schedule, you're thinking about chores, right?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you put your sex somewhere in between, you know, doing dishes and doing laundry, right?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: I often get confused by this,
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  SPEAKER_01: if I'm really honest,
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  SPEAKER_01: because for me,
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: spontaneous desire has always suggested to me,
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: going back to when I'm a young person,
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm meeting somebody in a club,
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm all dressed up,
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm dancing, I'm had a bit to drink, I'm talking to somebody in a club.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's no physical contact, but I'm super attracted to this person.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like...
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Reflecting on when I met my husband, for example.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: I met my husband at a party.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're not married anymore.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: He looked really handsome to me and I was really like...
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I looked across the room and I saw him and I was like,
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: oh my God, that's the most handsome man I've ever seen in my life.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I went over and I talked to him and we had a bit of connection.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then I literally made a pass at him and, you know, and snogged him, as we say in the UK.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: I would not be able to do that now because I don't have that intense feeling now
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: at my age that I had back when I was 25 years old.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: If my same husband was in the room, I could be talking to him.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: I could have a really nice time.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: It would all be great.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: But would I be snogging him at the end of the night?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I would.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because I just don't have that same stuff going on inside of me.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: The estrogen, the progesterone, like all of that stuff.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not there anymore to kind of push me into...
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you're saying that all of this stuff that I'm associating with responsive desire,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: which is all that sexting,
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: all of that preparation, all of that stuff, I associate that with responsive desire.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're saying that that is also part of spontaneous desire.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so you actually put a lot of work in.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And what's really interesting, so I work with older couples as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I've been seeing more and more couples in their 60s,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: 70s coming in to work on their relationship.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And usually,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I would say 99.9% of couples come in to work on their communication,
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: but then eventually they talk about sex.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is what it is, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember specifically this couple, they were in their late 70s, like 76, 78s.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, they've been together for many, many years, kids, grandkids, right?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, they weren't really connecting as much.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And what I told them, you know, we talked about, you know, this emotional connection.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: I also talk about, you know, the novelty that brings desire back.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: And what I gave, I gave them a simple exercise.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I told them, okay, let's do this thing, fun thing.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: So take the alphabet, okay?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And do this A3Z date night.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: So take all the letters and think of different things that you can do as a couple again.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: So A could be axe throwing, A could be arcade night, A could be art gallery, right?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: B could be bowling, beach walk, burlesque, right?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: M is my favorite movie and massage.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Usually I do this with my husband.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: He picks a movie, I get a massage.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: I pick a movie, I get a massage.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: So my absolutely favorite.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: So this is one of you,
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: what the whole thing about desire and research on desire,
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: that novelty, the new experience with your partner can actually increase desire.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Or you could be doing just fine,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: but then if you didn't have new experiences, if that's all part of routine.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have that excitement.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was talking to a journalist about traveling.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Some people say that they don't engage in intimacy all the way until they go
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: on vacation somewhere.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: And why?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because you break out of that routine.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: You have the new experience together.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're able to give that attention to your partner.
• 10:56
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• 11:00
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• 11:04
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• 11:10
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• 11:32
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• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Esther Perrault always has a distance breeds desire and that there always needs
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: to be some degree of mystery.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And often, as you say, mystery can just be novelty.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Mystery can just be something which is around the unfamiliar.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't necessarily have to be something that's an inherent characteristic
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: in your partner that you're just unfamiliar with.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: It can actually just be putting yourself into a new scenario that's unfamiliar
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: that creates an opportunity to see your partner perhaps in a new way or
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: to share new experiences together that bring you closer together.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: but like if you do something, right,
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: and then you feel like you know your partner well,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: so you're not curious,
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: maybe you're not even seeing them through that sexy lens, right?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden you do something, like,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: you go like,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: so that couple, they start, they went salsa dancing, they did a bunch of things.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then the wife, she shared and she said like, oh, wow, he's actually such a good dancer.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: He's so sexy.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And all the women looking at him and I was like, he's mine.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that was like,
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: you don't see your partner doing this at home,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: but then now like, or like axe throwing, oh, wow, he's strong.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, things like that helps you to feel more desire.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, and also like what I was thinking with,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know, that whenever there's a routine, you need to bring novelty.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then what's the novelty?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things that I talk about in my book is...
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Consensual uncertainty.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the new way to go on dates.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: And again, if it's possible, it doesn't have to be every single date, right?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's impossible to do it every single time.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: But when you do it, you can do it right.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So the way it works,
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: you take your partner on a date,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: but instead of going in the same car from the same home, right?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: You tell them where to meet.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you make it the mystery, right?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: You just tell them, okay, meet me at this place.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the outfit.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is it formal?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is it sporty?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, whatever it is.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is it casual, business casual?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then the rest,
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: you just kind of like almost like,
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: have this first date again and have different experiences and you take turns.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I suspect lots of women, and I'm one of them, fall into the category of the planner.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure that you've heard from many couples that one of the things
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: that women hate is when men say to them,
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, honey, what would you like to do?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it becomes this familiar dynamic where he goes, what are we doing this weekend?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And suddenly,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: in addition to all the other activities that she's got to plan,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: especially if she's got grandchildren,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: caring responsibilities,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: all of this,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: now she's got to figure out what they're going to be doing for the weekend as well.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that can feel like the most unsexy thing in the world to be cast in that Yeah.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it could be both things, right?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like he knows that she does it well and he's never done it before.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the courage to actually take the first step and do it.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And also from the wise perspective,
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: if maybe he's saying like,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm afraid to do the wrong thing,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: maybe because every time he made an attempt,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: he would say, well, I would not do this this way, right?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Just give that, you know, feedback, positive feedback to your partner.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you're not 100% like it, you can always say like, that was, you know, thank you.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for doing it.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: And You know, maybe next time you can give some feedback later on, but then to make it better.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say, try to focus on the moment.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you're not allowed them to try, you know, they're not going to be able to do it.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's the do for, do with, cheer on.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I usually teach parents and also wives.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Do for, do with, cheer.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Cheer on.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you do for them, you know, you plan, then you do with.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: So this is some of the things that could be helpful.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: This is the I was speaking to somebody and she said to me something about,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know, when he does those little
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we do.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we do.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we do.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason why is because if we only notice what's not being done,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: right, that's what we see.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's what we say.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: So then when we look back, all our interactions or our thoughts are more of the negative, right?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like what's missing, what's absent, but not what we're grateful for.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: So when we actually say it out loud, first of all, we start focusing on good parts, right?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: We start thinking about it,
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: we start seeing, and then it changes the lens and the climate of the relationship.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: So let's move on to the idea of desire diversion.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Where does erotic energy go when it's no longer invested in the relationship?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that was really interesting because when I was doing the research
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: and I was talking to couples and,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: individual,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: not sometimes individual because maybe they will not admit,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: in front of their partner that something's going on there on the side, right?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: But when I talk to individuals and I would ask them,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: so you don't have desire for your partner, right?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Who do you have desire for?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes they say, well,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: there's someone out there,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: I have someone I feel emotionally connected or sometimes not emotionally connected,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes they say like, no one, I just don't have desire.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, it was not enough because I feel like it just doesn't fade, right?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: It changes direction.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And what's interesting, yes, it can change direction unto someone else, right?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: When someone gives you more attention,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: when you feel more desired by them,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: when you feel like they're fulfilling your needs or,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know, fantasies, whatever it is, right?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, that's the more infidelity path, right?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: But also it could be you focus on something else that you feel like you need attention.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: When you're with your partner...
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: You focus on your partner, but then things are good when your relationship is committed.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you feel like you're done.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: The job is done.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then now you need to focus on parenting.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: You need to focus on your career.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: You need to focus maybe on getting back in shape after giving birth to children, right?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then you give that 100% attention or 90% attention on that.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you take away that desire from the relationship.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: So originally when I was writing the book, The Formal of Desire...
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was the formula of relational desire.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: So where your relational desire goes to like, and then again, like desire is multiple things.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's the sexual, but again, being in relationship with your person.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say when it's internal, right?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And again, like you think, well, I'm a good parent, so why is it a bad thing?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: But in my book, I talk about the three selves, three personas.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're individual,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: you create your individual self,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: but your hobbies,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: things that you do for yourself that makes you feel fulfilled and happy.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: When you meet someone else, you create additional personas, a couple's persona.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you do things with your partner.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: At that point, you need to juggle both, right?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just be with your partner because you will be codependent,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: potentially toxic relationship, and you can lose yourself as a result.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: But then also you can't just focus on your own individual things, right?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: When you have your partner,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: you can't just keep going out with your friends and playing soccer,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: like whatever it is,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: and then don't give any attention to your partner because
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: that relationship would not last, right?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: You need to juggle both.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you have children, if you decide to have children, you have another persona.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's a family persona.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: So what I see with a lot of couples who come in and who struggle
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: in their relationships, they try to fulfill their family persona.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: They try to fulfill the individual persona, but their couple's persona is neglected.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the big aha moment was in 2017.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: I talked to this couple and asked them,
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: like, when was the last time you spent time together when you did something?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, oh, we go out to eat all the time.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, so when was the last time?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, oh, just last week.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, just two of you, right?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, oh, no, no, no, with kids.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I said,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: so when was the last time just two of you did something together as a couple,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: romantic couple, not as parents, right, but as a couple?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: They said, oh, before the kids 10 years ago.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my God.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I see this all the time, right?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And again, sexless marriages.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: So usually when you don't have that connection,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know, emotional connection, physical connection, intimacy declines.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: I see a lot of couples in sexless marriages and sometimes you would never assume, right?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're young, they're healthy, successful, and they're not intimate.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: And what's the definition of sexless marriage?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's 10 or less times per year.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's about once a month.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Some couples who come in and say like, oh, that's the definition of sexless marriage.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'll take that over anything,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: whatever we have right now because we haven't been intimate for six months.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: I actually work with a couple who haven't been intimate for 10 years.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Holy cow.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's the time when you want to have this hot sex, right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're missing out on all the years and all the experiences.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I suspect that a lot of it is societal pressure that often young parents feel
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: to be perfect parents.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: That suddenly when the kids come along,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: parenting becomes their primary role and they lose their sense of self in favor
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: of becoming this great parent to their kids.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it was actually my father who told me
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: that I should always put my primary relationship with my partner before my children
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: because my kids are going to leave home, but my partner is still going to be there.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't feed that relationship,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: eventually when the kids leave home,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: you'll just be two people living under the same roof.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is a very, very common occurrence.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And what I'm seeing,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: as you've just said,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: is that this sort of relationship where people are just not being intimate
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: with each other is happening earlier and earlier as people are being stressed out
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: through work.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like raising kids, being the perfect parent, you know, taking the kids to all these activities.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my son used to yell at me that I didn't want to take him to football.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I just said to him, do you know what?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's only so many hours in the day and I don't have enough time for that.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Either figure out a way to get there yourself or get someone else to take you,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: but it's not going to be me, you know?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: I suspect some people thought that was bad parenting on my part,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: but I just thought I need to create some space for myself in this family dynamic.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's clear that that's becoming more and more evident in relationships
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: that there's just no sex.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, look, I didn't have sex in the last four years of my marriage, so...
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very familiar with this pattern of behavior,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: but I think,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: as you said,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: it all goes back to A,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: the communication that you've got between yourselves, and B,
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: carving out time for actual, like,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: genuine,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: not just intimacy,
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: but just quality time with your partner, which most people don't do.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: What do couples who maintain passion over decades do differently from those
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: who drift apart from
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: So a couple of things, right?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say, first of all, couples flirt with each other.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think flirting is a huge, huge piece of the relationship.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that was something that when I was thinking about,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know, my relationship with my husband, right?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was always flirting, right?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: We always have this shared language, you know, inside jokes.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Even when like kids in the room,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: we say something,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, not inappropriate, but something that we can't end that like, hey, you know.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of nice.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking forward to spend time with you tonight, right?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: When kids are asleep, you know, things like that.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And signs that you want your partner, you desire your partner, even if you're tired, right?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Just letting your partner know like, hey, I'm tired right now, but I want to take a rain check.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I want to rip off that clothes, right?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes like from the research perspective,
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: it's enough to feel relationship satisfied with your partner,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: just knowing that your partner desires you.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing I think with emotional connection,
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of women say that if they don't feel emotionally connected to their partners,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: they can be intimate with their partners.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then emotional connection, it always starts with communication with talking.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: So back in the day,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: in 1970s,
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: researchers developed social penetration theory,
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: which is kind of interesting, right?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: If there's no social penetration, there will be no actual penetration.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: So the way we communicate and create this more intimate connection.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we start, it's like an onion.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: So they envision it as an onion.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then you always start on the outer layer of that onion.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: When you meet someone,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: you share just general details about you, your name, your likes, dislikes.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then as you get to know the person,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: you go deeper and deeper and deeper into the core of that onion.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're sharing your Inspirations, your dreams, your fears, right?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And all the intimate details that someone else would not know about you.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: But what happens to long-term couples,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: they actually regress back to that outer layer of that onion.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: And they stop talking about intimate details.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: They stop talking about, you know, big things, important things.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: I guess they talk about important things, but it's mostly chores and logistics.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And what I hear for some of my couples where,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: like, they would say, like, well, my co-workers know me better than my partner.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I always say,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: try to bring the check-ins back into your relationship,
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: even if it's,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know, five,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: ten minutes a day,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: like something small,
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: but if it's consistent, it helps with creating this connection again.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: I have this couple who's been together for,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: maybe over 15 years, they came in, wife said, like, I don't have desire, right?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: She felt like her desire, she's like, I just don't know, I just don't have any desire, right?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And again, like, is it medication?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is it stress?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is it like, what's going on with desire?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: What diminished desire, right?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then I told them like, well,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: start small,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: like you need to start with,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know, trying to see what's going well in your relationship, right?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Start with the check-ins.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: So start with hugs.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: So a 20-second hug helps brain to release oxytocin, love, and bonding hormones.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that helps you to feel more connected with your partner.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: And actually it Decreases your stress level.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's good for you.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Higging is good.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, and they started with the check-ins, right?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: they come in like a couple of sessions later and they're like,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: yeah, we have sex again.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, good.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I said like, do you have desire?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, yeah, I just have desire.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we have this special time.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: We put kids to sleep and then I look forward to go back to my husband and give him a cuddle.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm actually excited.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: they've been coming and then they said like, okay, like, I think we're doing good.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: So now let's do monthly chickens.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then when something happened, you know, they stopped checking in.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then when they came and they said,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: so because we work on their sex life to,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: go from the sexless marriage,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: like less than once a month to more of the golden standard,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: which is about once a week.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then I said, like, so what happened?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, like,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: one thing that happened for me, she said, it was like we stopped checking in.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a huge part for me to feel more connection towards my partner,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: which was really interesting.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was talking to a therapist the other day and he'd gotten married
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: to his high school sweetheart and that had just ended.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then he was now in his second or his third marriage and he was, you know, all loved up.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: But he said, you know, one of the things he said is never marry your high school sweetheart.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's what he said, right?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously you would challenge that.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: And generally I would say that a lot of people that marry very young, it doesn't work out.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: But clearly there was something about the two of you when you were young that
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: That must have been the thread that's running through your relationship.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious to know what that is.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I feel like that was like something important that you mentioned before, right?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: So when it starts with us, it ends with us, right?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: We always were trying to remind ourselves whenever we felt disconnected
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: or resentful, right,
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: of Something that happened,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: we remind ourselves that we love each other and we always would reconnect and try
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: to kind of figure out what happened so it doesn't happen again.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then, as I said, like we always would come with a place of positive lens, right?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: I know like you're like,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: I know maybe in the moment I was upset with you, but I know you had good intentions.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Let's figure out, let's talk about it.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that helps to recreate that empathy towards each other and puts you back on the same team.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Anna, it's been delightful talking to you and I'm really looking forward
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: to reading your book, Formula of Desire.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds really amazing.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: And for those of you who are listening in the States, it's out at the beginning of August.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And for those in the UK and Europe, It's out on the 24th of September.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be available on Amazon and all good bookshops.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: So please do go and check it out.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: The Formula of Desire by Dr. Anna Elton.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's been wonderful to speak to you and have a fantastic day.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Just a quick nudge,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: if you haven't visited sexadviceforseniors.com yet, what are you waiting for?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's the place where curiosity, experience, and a little mischief all meet.