Latest / The Diary of a CFO / Executive Presence Explained: Why Top Performers Still Get Overlooked, with Executive Coach, Jill Avey

Transcript

Executive Presence Explained: Why Top Performers Still Get Overlooked, with Executive Coach, Jill Avey · The Diary of a CFO

• 0:00
  Jill Avey helps women leaders get promoted to
• 0:02
  the director and VP levels with the SisterSmart
• 0:05
  leadership programs. She does this by supporting
• 0:08
  her clients to develop their strengths, increase
• 0:10
  their influence, and improve team performance
• 0:13
  while navigating gender bias. Welcome back to
• 0:17
  the Diary of a CFO podcast. I'm your host, Wassia
• 0:19
  Kamon, and today's guest knows exactly what it
• 0:23
  takes to be seen, heard, and promoted, not just
• 0:25
  what you do, but for how you show up. Welcome
• 0:28
  to the show, Jill. Oh, thanks so much for having
• 0:31
  me. Of course, I will definitely love to spend
• 0:34
  our time talking a lot about executive presence.
• 0:37
  So starting with the basics, what is executive
• 0:40
  presence to you? Executive presence, we can sum
• 0:42
  that up. It's one of these very difficult topics.
• 0:46
  Like it's that thing that you know when you feel
• 0:47
  it, but it's hard to describe. And so that's
• 0:50
  kind of how we can sum it up is it's that special
• 0:53
  something about people that tells you that they're
• 0:56
  the leader. And it's really in how we hold ourselves.
• 1:00
  It's the energy that we bring off, but it's also
• 1:03
  a bunch of behaviors. And so you have to have
• 1:05
  both, though. And there's an author and researcher,
• 1:10
  Sylvia Anhewlett, who is out of Harvard, and
• 1:12
  she's done an incredible amount of research on
• 1:15
  executive presence. She has a real simple model
• 1:17
  that's communication plus gravitas plus appearance.
• 1:23
  is kind of an easier way to think about it. It
• 1:26
  gives us something to grab onto. It's not the
• 1:29
  model that I use. I use a more complicated model
• 1:31
  because I find that gravitas is still one of
• 1:33
  those ambiguous things. And it's hard to explain
• 1:37
  that one. And so I've researched this because
• 1:41
  I saw right away that executive presence was
• 1:44
  something that was kind of mysterious. It was
• 1:46
  something I didn't understand that well in my
• 1:48
  career. I could have done a lot better job at
• 1:50
  this when I was a VP. I just leaned into it as
• 1:55
  a coach because I knew that this is something
• 1:56
  that people really needed. So I've studied it
• 1:58
  for years. And so I feel like I've cracked the
• 2:00
  code, but it is hard to it's hard to explain.
• 2:03
  And even the researchers, even the experts don't
• 2:06
  do a good job at explaining it. I don't think
• 2:08
  so. That's where having a lot of conversations
• 2:11
  about it and talking about the different behaviors
• 2:14
  really makes a difference. OK, so now I'm curious
• 2:18
  to hear because you said gravity is not even
• 2:20
  English. So How would you define with the research
• 2:24
  that you did? What is executive presence? And
• 2:28
  do you think it's something that people are born
• 2:30
  with or is it something that they can learn?
• 2:32
  It's definitely something you can learn. I don't
• 2:34
  think I don't know if anybody's born with it,
• 2:36
  but there are some of those little kids who are
• 2:38
  like, you know, you think I have a nephew and
• 2:42
  I'm like, he's going to be in sales. And so,
• 2:45
  you know, that it can come naturally. Some people
• 2:48
  are naturally more charismatic, for example.
• 2:51
  But it's not charisma. It's not really your personality.
• 2:59
  So we can definitely learn it. So that's the
• 3:02
  good news. My personal models, I break it down
• 3:08
  into five different categories. So appearance
• 3:11
  is one, because that's the critical first filter,
• 3:15
  as Hewlett calls it. People will make a judgment
• 3:18
  on your appearance as do you look like a leader
• 3:21
  and there's there's a look that leaders have
• 3:25
  and you know, I'm you know, I love that we're
• 3:28
  busting that right now because I'm all about
• 3:30
  like breaking rules and You know, for example
• 3:33
  curly hair has been one that like straight hair
• 3:36
  has been an executive thing for women but curly
• 3:38
  hair is now like totally breaking in and you
• 3:41
  know, I encourage my clients to wear it how you
• 3:44
  like it, wear what makes you feel best. And,
• 3:46
  you know, clothing, too. You know, we don't have
• 3:48
  to be in a black suit, but we can really put
• 3:51
  our own signature style into that. So that's
• 3:55
  that's kind of the easy part is the appearance.
• 3:56
  A lot of people get stuck there and a lot of
• 3:58
  people get stuck on like presentation skills
• 4:02
  and, you know, those kinds of things, too. But
• 4:05
  that's. I don't even count presentation skills
• 4:09
  in in executive presence, because that's more
• 4:11
  of a skill set. What I do count is, I say it's
• 4:16
  how I operate, it's how I connect with people,
• 4:20
  it's how I present myself, and it's how I'm connecting
• 4:25
  with others. So it's how, you know, do people
• 4:30
  resonate with me? Do I care? You know, do I have
• 4:34
  empathy? Do I put myself in other people's shoes?
• 4:36
  That's a big part of executive presence. And
• 4:39
  then, the how I operate is do I have practical
• 4:43
  wisdom? Do I know my job? You know, you have
• 4:45
  to have the technical skills to be a leader and
• 4:48
  people need to be able to trust that you're going
• 4:49
  to make the right calls, that you have a vision,
• 4:52
  that it's a vision that people want to follow.
• 4:55
  And that's tough right now with AI changing everything.
• 4:58
  It's very hard to have a vision of where we're
• 5:01
  going. And so, you know, but people need that
• 5:04
  and people need you to Bring everybody together.
• 5:08
  You know, are you I had a mentor once that said
• 5:11
  that Business is at 10 ,000 steps and it's up
• 5:14
  to you as a leader to bring all those steps going
• 5:16
  in the right direction So that's you know, somebody
• 5:19
  who can do that has that presence about them
• 5:22
  And then so you say your model had five you mentioned
• 5:25
  appearance was one I'm assuming practical wisdom
• 5:29
  is the other part. So it's how I connect Yeah
• 5:34
  How I look was the appearance one. Oh, okay.
• 5:39
  So how I look, how I connect, okay. How I operate.
• 5:45
  How I operate, okay. How I treat others. How
• 5:49
  I treat others, okay. And then how I present.
• 5:54
  How I present, huh. Okay. That's like how I present
• 5:58
  myself, not how I present a presentation, so.
• 6:02
  Yeah. Got it. OK. So when you mentioned how I
• 6:06
  operate, can you can you, you know, bring you
• 6:10
  give me more here on how I. Yeah. So for me,
• 6:13
  that's how do I operate in the world? How how
• 6:15
  am I doing my job? How am I? That's that practical
• 6:19
  wisdom piece. It's the vision piece. It's bringing
• 6:21
  everybody together towards that goal. And, you
• 6:24
  know, do people trust you in the thing you do?
• 6:26
  So you're in finance. Do I trust that you're
• 6:28
  really. you know, managing the finances in the
• 6:31
  way that's going to be best for everybody. Or
• 6:33
  do I think that you're somebody without good
• 6:36
  executive presence would be somebody who's looking
• 6:38
  out for their own bonus, for example. And that's
• 6:42
  not good executive presence. That's the me show,
• 6:44
  you know, and a good executive presence, a leader
• 6:46
  cares about the we, not the me. Wow. Thank you
• 6:50
  so much for sharing. So why do you think so many
• 6:53
  capable leaders, especially women, get told they
• 6:56
  need more presence? Because from what you describe,
• 7:00
  it's pretty simple, right? How I operate, how
• 7:02
  I connect, how I engage with others. But why
• 7:06
  is it that you can have all the technical skills
• 7:10
  that you need in your field? So I'm in finance,
• 7:11
  I have all the letters possible. And I was still
• 7:14
  told I didn't have executive presence. the only
• 7:17
  one. So yeah, I think there's a lot of reasons.
• 7:20
  And you know, there's reasons for men and women
• 7:22
  to not be showing the executive presence that
• 7:25
  they could be. And part of it is just that you've
• 7:28
  never worked on it, because there's very few
• 7:31
  places to work on it. There's very few resources
• 7:34
  on how to actually develop the skills. Like you
• 7:37
  can read some books and learn about it, but that
• 7:39
  doesn't actually tell you how to develop the
• 7:41
  skills. And so That would be one thing. There's
• 7:44
  also another factor that I think is huge for
• 7:48
  all sorts of people, but I work with women specifically,
• 7:51
  so I know that this is a factor for women, is
• 7:54
  that if you aren't fitting into the traditional
• 7:57
  male leadership mold. So, you know, for example,
• 8:02
  women don't, you know, they lead in a different
• 8:05
  way usually. They lead with a different set of
• 8:09
  skills. to the forefront. Sometimes, sometimes
• 8:12
  not. You know, women can lead with very masculine
• 8:14
  leadership skills and that's fine too. Generally,
• 8:17
  we're not fitting the mold. And that's why we
• 8:19
  get told, you don't look like a leader because
• 8:22
  they're not used to seeing that kind of leadership.
• 8:25
  And so this doesn't, I feel really strongly about
• 8:28
  building our executive presence in an authentic
• 8:30
  way of figuring out what's right for us. And
• 8:32
  then really being able to understand that and
• 8:35
  describe it to others because you can help people
• 8:38
  along. in understanding you as a leader and having
• 8:42
  them see you as a leader when you can talk about
• 8:44
  those things. And so let's say you're a guy who
• 8:48
  is like, nice guys have as much problem as women
• 8:51
  do in the workplace. So like, let's say you're
• 8:54
  a nice guy and they're calling you saying that,
• 8:58
  you know, you're not a not leadership material,
• 9:00
  you know, and so you can put together. There's
• 9:04
  15 different facets that we work with in executive
• 9:06
  presence. You can put together your own style
• 9:08
  and show how this, I connect with people very
• 9:11
  deeply. I understand people. And so that makes
• 9:15
  them want to come along with me. That makes them
• 9:17
  want to follow my vision because they know I
• 9:19
  understand their world. A guy can say that just
• 9:23
  as well as a gal. So these are ways that we can
• 9:27
  explain ourselves to be shown with the executive
• 9:31
  presence that we do have. Wow, that's quite powerful
• 9:34
  because yeah, I personally started in corporate
• 9:37
  America and there was nobody looking like me
• 9:39
  At the top of the organization like that representation
• 9:42
  was not there especially in finance period So
• 9:45
  I'm curious to hear especially when you were
• 9:47
  talking about Masculine trait of leadership and
• 9:51
  how nice, you know nice guys also struggle For
• 9:54
  women, for example, how can we show confidence
• 9:57
  without having to worry that we're seen as too
• 9:59
  strong or aggressive? Like I feel like it's a
• 10:02
  double edged sword almost in most cases. Yes,
• 10:05
  that's one of those double binds that women face.
• 10:07
  We face a lot of double binds, but that's definitely
• 10:09
  one of them is that it's easy for us to tip over
• 10:13
  from assertiveness to aggressiveness. And there's
• 10:19
  My biggest tip the I'm not gonna say it's easy,
• 10:22
  but my biggest tip is to always add warmth in
• 10:25
  so If you come to the conversation, there is,
• 10:29
  you know, we're gonna pack our times when we
• 10:31
  need to be assertive. And there are times when
• 10:33
  we need to be assertive. And there are times
• 10:34
  when we're gonna, you know, be risk, we're gonna
• 10:38
  risk being called the B word, you know, and we're
• 10:41
  gonna, you know, and that's okay. People can
• 10:43
  think that we're not nice sometimes. And, you
• 10:46
  know, women are expected to be pleasing, helpful
• 10:48
  and nice. And we can go against that. But when
• 10:52
  we bring warmth and like a kindness into it,
• 10:56
  like we're doing this for the good of everybody.
• 10:58
  I'm laying down the line here because we all
• 11:01
  need this. Not because I'm mad or I, you know,
• 11:07
  was trod on or whatever, you know. It's coming
• 11:11
  to it with that we approach and which is, you
• 11:14
  know, what that does is women have different
• 11:18
  gender expectations. our societies are the way
• 11:22
  they are, and men and women have different social
• 11:24
  expectations. And one of the expectations that
• 11:27
  women have to deal with is that we are going
• 11:30
  to look out for the whole. And it's much more,
• 11:33
  it's okay for men to look out for themselves,
• 11:35
  but we will get judged. That's the bias that
• 11:41
  we'll face, and we'll be judged by men and women.
• 11:44
  And so, yeah. Because it's just going to rub
• 11:48
  people wrong. And so when we bring that warmth
• 11:51
  in and thinking about the whole, and I'm making
• 11:58
  a stand for this because I'm looking out for
• 12:00
  the company, for all the teams, for the budgets,
• 12:03
  or whatever it is, that bigger picture, then
• 12:06
  all of a sudden that can be so much more curable
• 12:10
  for people. when we strike against those gender
• 12:14
  norms, then the ears can close and our message
• 12:18
  isn't being heard because they're too caught
• 12:21
  up in how they feel about it. Wow. So let's say
• 12:26
  I walk into a high -stake meetings tomorrow.
• 12:30
  The habit, what is a micro habit or how can I
• 12:33
  apply this warmth to change how I'm perceived?
• 12:37
  Like I still want people to see me as an executive.
• 12:39
  I don't want to be seen as too aggressive, but
• 12:42
  I have a tough message to deliver. So how do
• 12:45
  you prepare for those kinds of meetings? I think
• 12:48
  the best thing is how you prepare yourself. And
• 12:51
  so I'm going to pull from another part of what
• 12:54
  I do in coaching, which is my communication training.
• 12:57
  And we talk about priming for trust. And so that's
• 13:01
  something where that's about preparing yourself
• 13:04
  and, you know, really being prepared with your
• 13:07
  message and why. You know, what is the purpose
• 13:10
  of this? What is the bigger picture? What is
• 13:12
  the mission you're serving with this tough message?
• 13:15
  Or do you have to get tough with the people there?
• 13:18
  Sometimes there's these characters that you really
• 13:20
  have to get tough with, especially at the executive
• 13:22
  levels, like it can be rough and tumble. And
• 13:25
  and so does that character need you to be tough
• 13:28
  with them so they can hear you? You know, so
• 13:31
  if you come in knowing kind of what you're serving
• 13:34
  and why you're doing what you're doing and coming
• 13:38
  in With you know kind of peace in your heart
• 13:41
  about that because if you come in with anger
• 13:43
  About it and you've had it or you've you know,
• 13:46
  you're not taking any more or you know, something
• 13:49
  like that Totally different message you're gonna
• 13:52
  deliver and so it's about really taking care
• 13:55
  of ourselves first our own emotional balance
• 13:58
  and making sure that we're grounded when we come
• 14:00
  into that conversation For me what always worked
• 14:03
  really well was I'm having compassion for the
• 14:06
  other people in the room Because they're just
• 14:08
  trying to get their jobs done too. And if I would
• 14:11
  think about where they're coming from, if there
• 14:12
  are people that you know, then you could think
• 14:15
  about even something that you love about them.
• 14:17
  I mean, you can find something to love about
• 14:19
  everybody, even the most grisly characters. Like
• 14:23
  I could, that was always my challenge was how
• 14:25
  can I find something that I love about them?
• 14:28
  And so if I can remember that before I say what
• 14:31
  I'm going to say, it comes off so much better,
• 14:34
  a lot less aggressive. Okay. And then I like
• 14:37
  how you said preparing for yourself, almost doing
• 14:40
  your homework on the people that you also going
• 14:42
  to be talking to, right? Understanding why, what
• 14:47
  will make their ears closed? Like you said earlier,
• 14:50
  you've dealt with in your practice, you deal
• 14:52
  with a lot of women coming in. What are some
• 14:54
  of the things who usually say, don't do this
• 14:57
  or do more of this so that the ears stay open?
• 15:00
  So that's your message actually lend. One of
• 15:05
  the things that I think is really important with
• 15:08
  the opening the ears part is that people feel
• 15:11
  heard and so I Mean even with your you know in
• 15:16
  your own family, right? I'll argue against my
• 15:20
  husband so hard until I feel heard and I know
• 15:23
  he's doing the same thing and you know I I've
• 15:26
  been a coach for a long time and I've been in
• 15:28
  personal development for a really long time and
• 15:30
  We still do it. We still catch ourselves doing
• 15:33
  it Yeah, it's so hard to listen, but that's why
• 15:37
  the prep is so important because when you prep
• 15:41
  yourself and you're ready for the questions that
• 15:43
  you're going to ask or at least have some ideas,
• 15:46
  you can change in the moment if you've already
• 15:49
  prepared yourself. But the more people feel listened
• 15:52
  to, the more you're asking them, you know, what's
• 15:56
  your viewpoint on that? You know, ears open wide
• 16:00
  up once they've feel heard, they feel you understand
• 16:03
  where they're coming from, it's much more likely
• 16:06
  that you're going to be listened to in a calm,
• 16:10
  receptive manner if you've been listening first.
• 16:16
  And sometimes it's hard to be the first one to
• 16:19
  go. Sometimes you want to be the one talking.
• 16:21
  But you have to think about what do I want out
• 16:23
  of this conversation? What is my goal? And sometimes
• 16:27
  it's, you know, for you to, to do the work of
• 16:29
  doing the listening first. And, you know, often
• 16:32
  you're going to get listened to a lot more when
• 16:34
  you've done that first. And that's, that's a
• 16:36
  better conversation for everybody. True. And
• 16:39
  that's how you're able to show that you're a
• 16:40
  partner in whatever problem you're trying to
• 16:43
  solve too. So thanks for sharing that, which
• 16:45
  is hard for. Us introverts, so I'm an extra extrovert.
• 16:49
  I should say it's hard for extrovert to listen
• 16:51
  Like it's hard for us. So I'm an extrovert too
• 16:55
  So any extra tip for the extrovert listening
• 16:59
  but also For the introverts, right? Because sometimes
• 17:02
  we feel like uh having a strong executive presence
• 17:06
  Is that charisma is presenting? Well, and if
• 17:10
  you're an introvert, can you have some executive
• 17:12
  presence? Introvert definitely listen my poor
• 17:15
  husband. He listens, but I don't so Yeah, and
• 17:22
  I mean I my husband's an introvert too thankfully
• 17:25
  because my first husband was an extrovert as
• 17:27
  well and boy that was competition, you know,
• 17:31
  and so, you know really I think Both of us need
• 17:35
  to listen but a lot of times the extrovert They're
• 17:40
  struggling with the listening, but the introvert
• 17:41
  is also struggling a lot of times with saying
• 17:44
  what they feel. And so one of the things that
• 17:47
  they can do is when the extrovert is actually
• 17:49
  trying to listen and they come in prepared to
• 17:51
  do that, open up a little bit, talk a little
• 17:55
  bit more, give them a little bit more information
• 17:57
  because they want it. And they need you to help
• 18:01
  them continue to listen. you know, if you continue
• 18:06
  the conversation along, that can be really helpful.
• 18:09
  Wow. And then as an extrovert, so I have a post
• 18:13
  -it on my desktop here that literally has listen.
• 18:16
  I wrote listen on the post -it note and put it
• 18:19
  on my on my desktop just so I can remember. But
• 18:24
  it's hard to do when you are in person. Right?
• 18:26
  So I learned that trick being remote and having
• 18:29
  my post -it note right here saying, listen, but
• 18:32
  when you are in the moment, like what are some
• 18:34
  things that could help? I think it's important
• 18:40
  to have a cue for yourself no matter where you
• 18:45
  are. So if you're in person in a meeting, some
• 18:48
  leaders do a thing where they prep themselves
• 18:50
  as they walk through the door. and whatever practice
• 18:54
  they need to have, grounding, breathing, usually
• 18:59
  calming yourself before a meeting. That helps
• 19:02
  us be in the right part of our brain and that's
• 19:06
  where our best behavior and our best thinking
• 19:08
  comes from. So having that kind of, this is what
• 19:13
  I do every time I walk through a doorway, I take
• 19:15
  a breath and I kind of feel my feet on the ground.
• 19:19
  That kind of thing can really help. And I think,
• 19:23
  as I mentioned, good meeting preparation of what
• 19:27
  are the questions? What are the things I want
• 19:28
  to learn from this person? Because if you have
• 19:31
  that all figured out, it's going to be a lot
• 19:32
  easier to listen. Maybe you have some questions
• 19:34
  written down already. You know, that's going
• 19:37
  to prime you to want to ask the questions and
• 19:40
  then listen. And so you'll be totally ready for
• 19:43
  it. Sometimes we don't get to prepare for every
• 19:45
  meeting, though. You know, lots of meetings,
• 19:47
  we're sliding in from another meeting and What
• 19:50
  are we talking about today? And so for me, I
• 19:54
  you know, I always have a notepad with me I like
• 19:57
  to handwrite notes Rather than type on my computer.
• 20:00
  So if you've got a computer you can do the post
• 20:02
  -it note or some kind of like label on your computer
• 20:05
  if you need to, you know, if you're bringing
• 20:07
  your laptop into meetings. But for me, I'm a
• 20:10
  hand writer. So I write at the top of my page
• 20:12
  to listen or it used to be keep your mouth shut.
• 20:16
  I do that too. I do have a shut up posted note.
• 20:22
  KYMS. Whatever works. Whatever works. I'm curious
• 20:28
  to hear with all the years you spent in coaching.
• 20:30
  First, what got you into coaching and especially
• 20:34
  diving in like you've done with executive presence?
• 20:40
  I spent 25 years in marketing and I led a lot
• 20:44
  of cross -functional complex, cross -functional
• 20:46
  teams with all the players. And that is really
• 20:49
  hard work and it kind of wore me out. And so
• 20:53
  I decided I wanted to have a second act in my
• 20:56
  career and that I wanted to do something that
• 20:58
  was going to be more of service. And I personally
• 21:00
  would like to work till I'm 80. And so I picked
• 21:04
  coaching as a way that I could kind of taper
• 21:07
  down, but not have to leave. leave work altogether
• 21:10
  because I love being in the world. You know,
• 21:14
  I spent my career traveling around the world.
• 21:16
  And so now the world comes to me through my clients
• 21:20
  and and I loved leadership. So this is a way
• 21:22
  for me to bring my background into something
• 21:25
  new and just helping people. And for me, it's
• 21:29
  really motivating. It became it became obvious
• 21:32
  right away that I should work with women. And
• 21:34
  it's really motivating for me to help women rise
• 21:37
  up because I think there's just a lot of overlooked
• 21:40
  talent in the workforce that doesn't have the
• 21:43
  leadership training. I work specifically with
• 21:46
  women at the director and VP levels and help
• 21:48
  them move up to the next level. So whether that's
• 21:51
  the VP or C -suite level. And so I think that
• 21:56
  there's not a lot of support in that middle of
• 21:59
  the pipeline, is what we call it, to help people
• 22:03
  get from middle management to upper management.
• 22:05
  It's usually not a place where companies are
• 22:07
  spending a lot. they may do some workshops, but
• 22:10
  you're not getting that personal development
• 22:13
  that, you know, you get all that when you're
• 22:15
  a senior management, but you don't get it to
• 22:18
  bring out the potential to show that you could
• 22:20
  be really good in senior management. And so I
• 22:22
  feel like that's a that's the problem that I
• 22:25
  wanted to solve with my business. And that's
• 22:27
  a big problem because I feel like I was stuck
• 22:30
  at that director level for so long. You're doing
• 22:34
  all the work because you middle management is
• 22:36
  like. You're dealing with employees because the
• 22:42
  first step, so right, you start an individual
• 22:45
  contributor, you move to management and sometimes
• 22:48
  now you're managing your peers, doing performance
• 22:50
  review, you haven't woke up from this nightmare.
• 22:52
  And then now you're thrown into something else,
• 22:55
  but there is very little, like you said, beyond
• 22:58
  the workshop that you do once a year or twice
• 23:00
  a year to really help you break. from that director
• 23:04
  VP to C -suite and more executive roles. So what
• 23:08
  have you seen as being the main obstacle or problems
• 23:13
  that get people stuck at that level? I would
• 23:18
  think we can. I mean, there's a skill set, you
• 23:20
  know, there's the community. To me, it's strategic
• 23:22
  perspective, it's communication and executive
• 23:25
  presence. But And it's also self -awareness.
• 23:29
  So the first step is really understanding yourself
• 23:32
  and what it is that you're bringing that's special
• 23:34
  about you and being able to talk about that.
• 23:37
  Understanding your leadership style and then
• 23:40
  developing that executive presence based off
• 23:42
  of what's special about you. And then when you
• 23:44
  have that package together, now you can bring
• 23:49
  that into the world. And so it all comes down
• 23:52
  to visibility in my mind because If nobody knows
• 23:55
  what you're doing, so many people get stuck in
• 23:57
  the doing part and they're working harder and
• 24:00
  harder hoping that somebody's going to notice
• 24:01
  and move them up. And once in a while that works,
• 24:05
  I'd say 10 % of the time that works. But 90 %
• 24:08
  of the time, it's the visible people that move
• 24:11
  up. And it's not a reward for hard work. They're
• 24:16
  moving you up because they see that you can add
• 24:19
  value at the senior level. They see how you're
• 24:21
  thinking. They see how you're solving problems.
• 24:24
  They see the impact you're making in the company,
• 24:27
  most importantly, and they want more of that.
• 24:31
  And they see that you could do even more from
• 24:33
  a higher level. And until you can show people
• 24:35
  that and do that translation for people, you're
• 24:38
  not going to get the attention. That's very true.
• 24:42
  That's some hard, hard, tough love right there.
• 24:44
  So for somebody listening that feel that they're
• 24:47
  in that stuck level, if I can say, what could
• 24:51
  be one or two things that can start doing differently
• 24:53
  to start having that visibility? Cause 90 % of
• 24:56
  people not being seen for their hard work is,
• 24:58
  is hard. It's a hard statistic. Yeah. Yeah. It's,
• 25:03
  and that's, there's no data behind that by the
• 25:05
  way. That's my field. That's how I felt too.
• 25:10
  I felt like the most visible people would move
• 25:13
  up. Some of them I just felt like were jerks,
• 25:17
  but they were the one that were visible. They're
• 25:19
  the one that were bragging or showing the world
• 25:22
  and networking and in all those dreams. So after
• 25:25
  hours and all these things, but they were visible.
• 25:30
  They were visible. So how do we get more visible?
• 25:34
  The things that you could do. One of them is...
• 25:37
  Check your busyness because the busyness trap
• 25:40
  is something that we work with in our program
• 25:43
  and You know, are you really doing every you
• 25:47
  know? Is everything that you're doing really
• 25:49
  that important because I would love for you to
• 25:51
  trim a couple hours a week off Is it a meeting
• 25:54
  you don't have to go to is it something you could
• 25:56
  delegate? Those are the easiest ways to do Things
• 25:59
  but also, you know check out your workload like
• 26:02
  there may be things that you just don't even
• 26:03
  have to do that you're still prioritizing. And
• 26:06
  so can you trim off a couple of hours a week
• 26:08
  to go out and get yourself visible? And so let's
• 26:12
  say you have found two hours a week. What do
• 26:13
  you do with that time? Now I want you to start
• 26:16
  tracking what you're doing and measuring the
• 26:19
  impact because so often we finished up a project
• 26:22
  and we just run to the next thing and we're not
• 26:24
  even stopping to see for ourselves. What what
• 26:27
  did we do? You know, and that will really help
• 26:29
  you on the business front because you'll start
• 26:31
  to be able to see. out of all the activities
• 26:34
  that I'm doing, what are the things that are
• 26:35
  really making a difference? And so once you start
• 26:38
  measuring all of that, then you can start talking
• 26:40
  about it. You can mention in a meeting, hey,
• 26:43
  this is I'm really proud of our team. You can
• 26:45
  do the brag and thank email, you know, like really
• 26:48
  proud of the team. They worked really hard. Here
• 26:50
  was our results. And here's some contributions
• 26:52
  of the team members that I really want to highlight.
• 26:55
  And, you know, those kinds of things going out
• 26:57
  once in a while make a huge impact. Maybe there's
• 27:02
  I love the book Smart Brevity. I mean, they talk
• 27:05
  about having a little, you know, weak recap for
• 27:08
  your manager, for the people that care about
• 27:10
  what you do, you know, let them know. And then
• 27:15
  you can start to get more personal and build
• 27:17
  relationships. So that's maybe spend an hour
• 27:20
  on the measuring and an hour on actually talking
• 27:22
  to people. And so I always have people think
• 27:25
  about, OK, who are the or what are the departments
• 27:30
  that my job impacts. So what are all the people
• 27:34
  that are tangential to my work that are above
• 27:37
  me? Why do they care about what I'm doing? And
• 27:40
  meet with them. Let them know about how you're
• 27:43
  doing and then have a conversation about how
• 27:45
  can we do this better? How can I serve your needs
• 27:48
  better? Start to understand their world more
• 27:51
  and understand how they're compensated and what
• 27:54
  How do they get bonuses? They care a lot about
• 27:57
  those things and the company cares about it too,
• 28:00
  otherwise they wouldn't be putting money there.
• 28:02
  So you can start to align your work with what
• 28:06
  everybody else is caring about more. And those
• 28:08
  conversations give you incredible availability
• 28:10
  and they give you a lot of support from senior
• 28:14
  management that could turn into a sponsorship.
• 28:17
  It could turn into somebody speaking up for you
• 28:19
  when it's time for a promotion to come around.
• 28:22
  You know, a lot of those conversations happen
• 28:23
  when we don't even know they were happening.
• 28:26
  And so you've got to have those relationships
• 28:28
  up front because the conversation happens. The
• 28:33
  announcements made that somebody is getting promoted
• 28:35
  and you had no idea any of that was going on.
• 28:38
  And you've got to you've got to have those people
• 28:41
  that are going to speak for you. That's true.
• 28:43
  And it remind me like I used to think that, you
• 28:46
  know, thinking about your career was only happening
• 28:49
  once you had performance review. And I wish somebody
• 28:53
  told me what you just said. It should be a year
• 28:58
  round conversation. Yes. It's year round. And
• 29:01
  before you know, you're like, how did that get
• 29:03
  promoted? I thought I would negotiate on my performance
• 29:05
  with you. Give me a three or four. And it already
• 29:09
  happened. Yeah. Yeah. And so you want to be laying
• 29:14
  all those seeds all year long and. creating those
• 29:18
  relationships. They take a long time to create
• 29:20
  a relationship. And so, you know, especially
• 29:23
  with senior leaders, you don't get a lot of access
• 29:24
  to them. You may have 15 minutes, four times
• 29:27
  a year. Maybe that's it. So you got to have a
• 29:29
  good story and you got to be fast with it. And
• 29:32
  you got to have a couple of good questions for
• 29:34
  them. And and then you can circle back and let
• 29:37
  them know how it went. And that can, you know,
• 29:40
  be the next conversation and the next one. So
• 29:42
  it's important to think about your career yourself.
• 29:47
  I think that's another mistake that a lot of
• 29:49
  people make is that if you wait till review time,
• 29:54
  your manager's in charge of your career and your
• 29:57
  company's in charge of your career, not you.
• 30:00
  And so you should be the one driving it. You
• 30:03
  should be figuring out what you need to work
• 30:05
  on because you know where you want to go and
• 30:08
  what it takes to get there. And it's your career
• 30:11
  path, not what can I get? big mindset shift for
• 30:17
  a lot of people because there's this feeling,
• 30:20
  I think, this kind of an employee mentality that
• 30:23
  we get instilled in us of the company's supposed
• 30:26
  to provide all that to me. And, you know, I mean,
• 30:30
  back in the day, companies did provide leadership
• 30:33
  training, but there's very few management tracks
• 30:36
  anymore. And, you know, rotations and things
• 30:39
  like that that used to happen like leadership's
• 30:42
  really in our hands now. Those budgets keep getting
• 30:45
  cut more and more. I don't know of any company
• 30:49
  that's expanding their business people. It's
• 30:57
  a long -term investment that's hard to see the
• 30:59
  return on. I get it, but that means that we need
• 31:04
  to do that work. Ultimately, no one cares about
• 31:08
  your career as much as you do. Your manager only
• 31:10
  cares a couple of times a year. They're thinking
• 31:12
  about you all the time. Very true. Oh, I love
• 31:16
  that. But how how did you get to that? Get to
• 31:22
  that, if I can say practical wisdom, like I'm
• 31:24
  curious, like if you could go back to your younger
• 31:26
  self before you build this level of confidence,
• 31:29
  what would you tell young Jill when she was,
• 31:32
  you know, in her? Maybe first five years of marketing.
• 31:35
  How do you build that confidence and that that
• 31:37
  mindset shift of I have to be like the CEO of
• 31:41
  my career can't just be an employee waiting for
• 31:43
  others to help me That's a hard question because
• 31:49
  when I was that young the resources that we have
• 31:52
  now we're not available so if I think you know,
• 31:57
  I would love to rephrase that in, what would
• 31:59
  I tell somebody who is starting their career
• 32:01
  now? Because there is so much help out there.
• 32:05
  I did all this by trial and error. There wasn't
• 32:09
  even business books when I started my career.
• 32:11
  Now we have so many books, so many things to
• 32:14
  listen to, podcasts, YouTube videos. There's
• 32:18
  so much resource for us. I always thought it
• 32:23
  was all about mentors, but mentors can only give
• 32:25
  you their viewpoint. But when you work with a
• 32:28
  coach, then that person like all I do all day
• 32:32
  every day is think about how to move women from
• 32:35
  middle management to upper management. That's
• 32:38
  all I do. And that's all I've done for nearly
• 32:42
  nine years. And so that's a I've worked with
• 32:45
  over 200 women for over a year. I go deep into
• 32:50
  these careers. I know the blow by blow for sometimes
• 32:53
  many years. And no mentor can give you that.
• 32:58
  True. No mentor can do that. They can give you
• 33:01
  the essential information of the politics in
• 33:04
  your organization that I can't give you. But
• 33:07
  there's like a coach for everything now. And
• 33:10
  so whatever thing that you need. You know, I
• 33:12
  had one client who was making a move into customer
• 33:15
  service and so she hired somebody that it was
• 33:19
  a customer service coach like a skills -based
• 33:21
  coach and so that there's there's so much learning
• 33:25
  that's out there with really specialized skills
• 33:28
  that you can find exactly what you need now versus
• 33:32
  you know joining you know in my case joining
• 33:34
  the American Marketing Association and hoping
• 33:37
  that you were going to learn what you needed
• 33:38
  to learn and of going to an event or two a year.
• 33:43
  That's just not how a smart person is gonna get
• 33:46
  there today. And you have so many more resources
• 33:49
  and finding that guide that is that expert. Just
• 33:54
  shortens it by years You can you could shorten
• 33:57
  your career path by ten years by hiring a right
• 34:00
  coach. It does it did for me. So I Started working
• 34:04
  with an executive coach when I was VP of finance
• 34:08
  and at the time my company would not pay for
• 34:10
  it So I was like, I'm gonna make the investment
• 34:13
  Lord fast forward within two years. I became
• 34:16
  a CFO By working with that coach and now the
• 34:20
  company pays for it, but you know, the first
• 34:22
  time I feel like we are often not always willing
• 34:25
  to make the investment in ourselves. And I think
• 34:28
  it goes back to the employee mentality that you
• 34:30
  said, we want the company to do it for us sometimes.
• 34:34
  And sometimes you just have to take the first
• 34:35
  step. But I do believe that executive coaching
• 34:37
  was transformative for me. And I can only imagine
• 34:41
  for your own clients how transformative it is.
• 34:44
  So I'm curious to hear what's the best way to
• 34:46
  start working with you. You know the best way
• 34:49
  to reach me is on LinkedIn because I'm on LinkedIn
• 34:52
  all day every day and so just send me a DM and
• 34:56
  you know reach out or start following my posts
• 35:00
  I post every day and talk about the stuff that
• 35:03
  I work with and so that's an easy way to get
• 35:06
  in touch with me. Well, thank you so much for
• 35:09
  being on the show. Such a joy. You've confirmed
• 35:12
  so many things for me that work for me that I
• 35:14
  hope other people listening and watching eventually
• 35:17
  on YouTube will also learn. So thank you so much.
• 35:20
  Oh, you're so welcome. Thanks for having me.
• 35:23
  And that's it for today's episode of the Diary
• 35:25
  of a CFO. Thank you so much for tuning in. If
• 35:28
  you enjoyed the show, don't forget to like, review,
• 35:31
  subscribe and share with others. Our website
• 35:34
  is thediaryofacfo .com. That's where you can
• 35:38
  find all the episodes, access all the guest profiles,
• 35:42
  see their bios and the social media links. It
• 35:45
  is also the place where you can apply to be a
• 35:48
  guest on the podcast and having for me about
• 35:50
  how you can sponsor the show. As always, if there
• 35:53
  is any topic you would like me to cover in the
• 35:56
  future, just email me at ask at the diary of
• 35:59
  a CFO dot com. See you soon. Wondering if you're
• 36:02
  ready for the CFO role? Find out with a free
• 36:06
  CFO readiness scorecard at CFO dot score app
• 36:09
  dot com.