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What I've Learnt - Sue Blashki · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

0:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, today I have a very special guest joining me on the podcast, Sue Blashke, my beautiful mother.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: As her 80th birthday is around the corner, we've joined forces to tell her story and capture her legacy and wisdom in honour of mothers across the world.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: Mother of four, wife, barrister, magistrate, and now a mediator, Sue has been a role model for many.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Friends, some of who went into law inspired by Sue, her children, grandchildren, and of course me.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: Life has not always been easy for Sue, suffering an illness that saw her bedridden as a young 15-year-old girl, tragically losing her own mother when Sue was only a 27-year-old young mum, and later taking care of a seriously ill brother who she adored.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: But for her, it's all been about finding that piece of blue sky, letting the sun shine in during the storms, that at times we all have to weather.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: As a writer and publisher, working with Mum to write her memoir is one of the greatest honours.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: I feel such trust and responsibility to try and reflect this incredible woman who has shaped mine and so many lives with her love, kindness, intelligence, and warmth.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: I've always had such huge respect for Mum in every way.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: As a professional woman as well as a mother, she's my guiding light on almost everything I do.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: There's not much I don't share with her, as her advice is often thoughtful and very on point.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: There's barely a day I haven't had a catch-up call with Mum.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: We discuss everything from relationships, work, politics, literature, the arts, children, friendships, and there's not a major life decision I've made without serious counsel with her.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Often her advice is sound, sensible, but always with a lateral perspective.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes mum feels like a sister or a best friend.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: At a time when only a few women tackled the challenges of the law, Mum showed how it was done.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Humble, capable, and transformative with carefully honed skills, there are also many families who are grateful to Mum for her guidance in navigating the often challenging family law system.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: I've always been so proud of Mum's determination to work and have a family.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: It's inspired me to know you can have it all, just not necessarily all at once.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: We reflect often on the balancing act, and mum is always open to considering new ways of doing things.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: Mum listens and is always learning, even at 80.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, I feel so blessed to have had such an inspirational, intelligent, caring woman to guide and nurture me through life's journey.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: No matter what the curveball, and we've both had many, it's mum's perspective to stay calm, adapt, consider carefully, and you'll get through it.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: She's helped me navigate the river of life so many times.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: I feel she's always there in my canoe, paddling alongside me, no matter where I am.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: She has such a joie de vive for theatre, music, travel, and she's always loved to party.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: I think that's where I get it from.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: Dressed beautifully with her maroon lipstick, Mum loves a celebration.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, we have had so many.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Also a ninth generation Australian with convict ancestors, we often joke that her family has gone from one side of the bench to the other as she became a successful magistrate.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: So as she turns 80, we reflect on her history, wisdom, and lessons learned on the ever-ebbing river of life.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: So Sue, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Deb.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: First of all, thank you for having me on your beautiful podcast.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm so proud of the work that you're doing and the wonderful interviews that you have.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, I wait for them each week to hear the next one, and each one is better than the last.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: So it's a great privilege to be on this with you and thank you for your beautiful introduction.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: And what more can I say?
3:50
SPEAKER_01: What a relationship we've had over so many years, a lifetime.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: And let's hope it's going to go on for a lot longer.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much, Mom.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm very, very happy to get your vote of confidence.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: This one's going to be beautiful.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: I think it's really special to have you joining me.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: I'd like to start talking to you about life as a young girl.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: Your parents traveled quite a lot for work, and I think you learnt resilience and self-sufficiency quite early.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: Can you talk to me about some of the earliest memories of that time?
4:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes, well, that's true.
4:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, my father was um uh a businessman.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: He was self-made, he started his business in the middle of the Great Depression in 1929.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: Um he started it um on his own.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: Eventually, his um brothers came into the business with him, and then other male members of the family came in with him.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: It was um he he managed to build um with my mother a very successful life and a very successful business.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: But it did involve during um my early life a great deal of travel because uh that's the way business was in Australia.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: We were a long way from the rest of the world, and his business involved uh other other countries and bringing in products from other countries, and it was a very different way of working.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: So he would actually, here my mother would go overseas um quite regularly, and sometimes my father would go away for six months at a time because the only way in the very early days to get to Europe was by ship.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: And so that's why it would take so long.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: And it's true, I think it did give me a feeling of self-sufficiency, resilience, and independence, but also we often had visitors from overseas visiting our family home and coming for dinner, and I was all meant, was made to feel quite important at the dinner table.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: And what I had to say, um, they would listen to me and taught me to speak for myself, I think.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: So that was a good start.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that was unusual at that time because often children were seen and not heard, but you were given a voice at the table.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: I I think that's very true.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: And it's only as I've reflected later in my life that I've thought about that.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: I didn't really think about it when I was younger at all, but I realized that I was never told to keep quiet, or what do you think, or what do you know?
6:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, I was included, and I think that that uh was a very positive thing.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, I had two brothers, one a lot older and one a lot younger.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: Um and we were all included in whatever family activities there were.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: And it shows how that sometimes sets the stage for a child to have the confidence to go on and out into the world, because you went in to be you went on to be quite progressive in the way you pursued your career.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: But we'll get on to that.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean, as a teenager, you were a very good student, but you got quite seriously ill.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: I think you were 15.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm interested in how that changed your perspective of life, because I think you were bedridden for about a year.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: Can you talk to me a little bit about that?
7:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, well, well, that's true.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, I um I started school as a five-year-old at a girls' private school in Melbourne.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: But uh, when my mother came to pick me up the first day from PrEP, um, the teacher said, Look, I'm sorry we can't keep her in this class because she's been taught to read.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, so my mother said, Well, um, that's interesting.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, so what happens?
7:23
SPEAKER_01: And they said, Well, we haven't got room in the next class, but we'll put her into the next one and she'll be fine.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: So within two days, I went from PrEP to grade two, and that meant by the age of 15, I was in year 12, doing what was in those days what's now a VCE, but in those days was called matriculation.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, I developed a virus of some sort, nobody quite knew what it was, and that put a bit of a halt to my studies, but only temporarily.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: Eventually, I managed to get back and complete them.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: But that was that was my early beginnings at school.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: So you graduated at 15?
8:00
SPEAKER_01: 17-year-olds doing doing matriculation.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: Probably um in this day and age, I don't think that would really happen because it was for practical reasons, really.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: It just worked for the school.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: Probably didn't work that well for me.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: But I did clamber my way back um with some degree of fortitude and finished eventually.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: Story of my life.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's right.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: I think fortitude is a very good word for you, mum.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's also interesting because I know that was quite a difficult year for you.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of things do in life.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, when things are challenging, you put them in the box they need to go in, and you put them on the shelf, and then you move on.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: Is that very much what you had to do with that year?
8:42
SPEAKER_00: Or how did you handle it?
8:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, yes, I think that's right.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I didn't actually continue my studies that year because I was ill.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, I didn't want to stay home feeling ill either.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: And I looked up the newspapers and I managed to get a job um at a law firm in William Street in the city, the by the name of Blake on Riggle, which was a very significant law firm in those days.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I worked there for a few months and loved it.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: And I wandered around to Little Burke Street um to see my father in his office, and I asked him if he knew the law firm.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: And he said, yes, of course he did.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: I said, Oh, well, I work there.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: And there's history, so to speak.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's quite amazing because I suppose what you did is just pick yourself up and saw that.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, from a very early age, you had a sense that you're in charge of your destiny.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh, where do you think you got that from?
9:34
SPEAKER_00: Is that something that was just genetic or was it something enculturated from your mom, who had a different journey, I know, but where do you think that came from?
9:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm really, I'm not sure, but I do think um that um my parents always um allowed me to make my own decisions.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, there was not a great deal of discussion.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, there was always approval of what I wanted to do.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was only if I was going to get out of line a bit and then they'd stop it.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: But um, but otherwise, I sort of learned at a very early age just to make my own decisions about my own journey.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: And they were never critical.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: There was no judgment or criticism of what I wanted to do.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: Which was probably reasonably unique for that era.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it probably was.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, but of course, um if you think of it, um I was born in 1941, so right in the middle of the Second World War.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the world was such a different world.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, we're in a bit of a different world right now, but the world I was born into, um people were really just trying to survive, even here in Australia.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, and of course, it was different, but there were hard times generally.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: And so um to try and build a business was a a major, major feat, um, say for my father.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: And so the preoccupation really wasn't with it, was looking after the children, but not how the children were feeling particularly.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: Children had to fit in a lot more than they do today.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure that's such a bad thing.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I hear you.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: I think that in some ways what you're saying is that the focus was on the survival of the business and making sure that everybody was working and functioning.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: And I know my grandfather worked very hard.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you're essentially saying, you know, it wasn't helicopter parenting.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: In fact, it was quite the opposite.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, my mother didn't drive a car until um until I was about five or six, I think, when my younger brother was born.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so she finally got her license, um, but was always very nervous driving a car.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: It was not really her way of doing things.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: So I would walk down um a road and catch the 69 tram to school, or I'd ride my bike, or I'd walk.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that was the way of the world.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: Children were not picked up from school by parents.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: So it was a bit of a different world.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: But it makes sense because there was a bigger priority of people just trying to manage their lives, and kids were part of it, but they weren't the whole focus in the way that they are now.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: And then obviously, I'm speaking more generally, it's different with everybody, and there's a spectrum of different families as such, even now.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: But I find that a really interesting reflection.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: Later on in life, your mum became very unwell.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: You were 27, your husband was doing medicine, you had three kids under 10.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, oh, younger than that, um, no younger than that.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: I at that time it I had a six-year-old, a three-year-old, and I was having another baby, and a year later I had another baby.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: Very easy time, um, a very challenging time.
12:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, but of course, the children, those four children that we had, of which you're one of them, have been so precious to us in our lives, the very central focus of our lives.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think you know that.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: I think also the fact that you had to, you're quite the exemplification of a multitasker.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: You were trying to support dad, trying to run a family, you had a sick mum, and so often um, you know, you become the central piece of that by virtue of your role.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what did you learn during that time?
13:27
SPEAKER_00: How did you sustain yourself?
13:29
SPEAKER_00: And what do you think were the key elements that allowed you to survive that period when Nan was particularly sick?
13:35
SPEAKER_01: Yes, um, I look, I I think that um when when things go wrong, I mean, I did come from a very happy family, um, and life had been wonderful.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: And I traveled overseas with my parents um when I was 16, and and that was a long eight months traveling all around Europe, and it was wonderful.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: Um so I think things changed very dramatically when my mother had um an operation that was really unsuccessful and was then um in a coma really for a number of years, and that was a very difficult time.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: But um, I trust tried to focus on caring for her, caring for my father, caring for all a few children, and something there was some impetus that just got me going to keep my own career going alongside all of that.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, my mother-in-law lived in Sydney.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: I didn't have a sister, you're very lucky you have sisters.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you're all a bit like my sisters anyway, and so are the granddaughters.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: Incredibly blessed to have all of you around me, popping in and out at all sorts of times.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: Always.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: So, what do you think with the resources you drew on?
14:50
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that making sure you maintain some focus on your own trajectory in a way equipped you uh during that time?
14:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I think that I do think that.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: I I think that there was some some feeling in me that I needed, well, I just wanted to do um something else uh with my life, um with my career.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: And I guess that was a little bit unusual at that time, but 1959, um, by that time I was 17, and I went off to Melbourne University and started law.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: So you graduated young, you chose law.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: Your father had a very successful business, as you mentioned, with about 2,000 employees at one point.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: He was doing extremely well, but there was no option for you to go into the family business as many people do now.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me a bit about that and then come back to your pursuit of law?
15:47
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm interested in that.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but really, there was no option for you to go into the family business, was there?
15:53
SPEAKER_01: No, look, there was a sort of a vague conversation at one time um that um maybe um I would be interested in doing something in the business.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was pretty peripheral and it was a pretty demanding business anyway.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it really wasn't where women seemed to belong at that time.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: Not that I think they belonged in the law either, but I think I just went off on my own journey.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, and um I think that proved to be the right thing for me at that time.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: So going back to teach, you did that after you had your children, a few children, I might add, and that allowed you to be home with the kids at a reasonable time and to manage and juggle that family work life.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: And then you completed your law degree, one of 15 out of 300 law students approximately.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: That's pretty daunting.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, were you concerned or were you confident among the 15 women in the cohort?
16:54
SPEAKER_00: What was your take on that time?
16:56
SPEAKER_01: It's really when I think back now, I think yes, I suppose um, I suppose it might seem like a big thing, but it didn't so much at the time.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: This little group of women, um, and and some of whom remain my closest friends, um, that I started law with in 1959.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think the girls who started law at that time were all pretty committed, all pretty serious about it, um, mostly, uh, and just charged on wanting to um do something with themselves, I think.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: And and the law course was Melbourne University, was the only university in Victoria um in the late 1950s.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: So there wasn't anywhere else to go.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think uh when I'd been at school, a lot of the girls I'd been at school with, which was a girls' school, private girls' school, and many at that time uh either took up teaching bursaries or did nursing.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't feel that was for me.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think that was how I actually landed in the law faculty, thinking, well, I think I could do something with this.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: I think I could make it into something because it interests me.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: I think it's worthwhile.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, you certainly made it into something, Mum.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: A very, very extraordinary career.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: Just an overview.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've worked in the family court, the children's court, the coroner's court, you know, as a barrister, you really were involved in so much across the legal sphere.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: Can you talk to me about what were some of the most challenging times?
18:31
SPEAKER_00: Let's start with what it was like as a barrister before you went on to become a magistrate.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: What were some of the most challenging times and what were the most rewarding?
18:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think um just just going back to how uh how it was for me in the law and my career, it was never a big plan.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: It was all this happened and then that happened, and because that was the way of the world then, and there were other priorities for me, my family, my parents, um, Tim's parents, um, and all the children.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: So it was just a happening in a way, and then it gradually evolved.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like there was a great plan.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: However, um, after I'd finished law uh and um suddenly realized no one's going to give me a job as a lawyer with four little children at home and a very busy husband.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: So um I went to a function one night and I was talking with a friend who was doing a diploma of education.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: I thought that sounds like a good idea.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: So by then Monash University had started, and I went to Monash University and I did a diploma of education.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: And that then gave me the opportunity, which was very lucky for me.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I spent the next 10 years as a lecturer in what was then legal studies.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: It was the very beginning of legal studies, and it was worked very well um with the family, with the children, because um I could do a lot of work at home.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: I was working from home.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: We started one of the very early courses, um, women's women's courses, um, where I was teaching, and I really enjoyed that teaching for that 10 years.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: And then after that, uh I thought, well, uh I'd done a master's of law during the time I was there, and I thought, I think I want to get back to the law.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I did, and that's when I became a barrister, and that was really challenging because when I got to the bar, there were about a thousand barristers, and I think there were about 20 female barristers.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: Wow, 20 out of a thousand.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: That's just incredible.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: It was a there was a coffee shop on the top floor of Owen Dixon Chambers in those days, and it was the dumb thing to go up and listen to the older, successful barristers telling their war stories about how clever they were.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: And they asked this and they asked that, and they won that case.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: And you think, oh, that's interesting.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, um, I'm about something different, but I'm just gonna go for it.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I did.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, you sort of had to seem to be a part of the general cohort of the barristers, but behind the scenes, you had your own idea of where you wanted to go, and it was going to be a different trajectory.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: I remember being told um by my mentor uh at the bar, and that's like in 1981, um there was something called the bar dinner, and that still goes on today.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: And I was told you have to go.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, and there might be 10 girls at the bar dinner, 10 female barristers, um, and the rest will be male.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: And so I went and I was seated very um carefully next to one male judge on one side and another male judge on the other side, and they'd look at me and sort of say, Well, girly, what are you doing here?
21:52
SPEAKER_00: And it was quite daunting, but you felt your core was pretty strong.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: It seems clear that it didn't phase you all that much, Mum.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: Just On with it, I'm just gonna go for this.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh there was a bit of a challenge, I suppose.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: And you love a challenge, you always rise to a challenge, Mom.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: And so do you think that obviously statistically that Barrister Challenge has changed a lot, but at the time, did it feel like this very steep mountain to climb?
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Look, I suppose because it was such a different world then, and um, you know, we're really talking about, I mean, feminism was very sort of women's rights, women's liberation.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: This was all very early at that time, and I wasn't particularly focused on any of that.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: I never felt like a victim.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: I it's not really ever been my position in life to be a victim, um, because I think you've just got to get on with it in a way and make it work.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, and and that's what I did.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: And the and the bar was quite a challenging place um in the early 1990s, late 1970s, early 80s.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was also quite exciting because um I had a clerk and when and and my clerk had a whole lot of young barristers on his list.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: And I was amazed that I'd keep getting work.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: They keep asking me to do a case, and I think, oh, that's great.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: This is really working.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: But it was very hard because I'd be in court during the day, then I'd come home, do the shopping on the way home, pick up something for dinner, make the dinner, and then after all the children had gone to bed by about half past nine, I'd sit up and I'd work during the night and be ready for the next day in court.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: And that was that was hard.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I remember you reading those briefs, pink ribbons everywhere, and I'd come in to say goodnight, and you'd be sitting there with briefs all over the bed.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: And so it really is interesting because men at the bar at that time would not have had that same requirement.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: It may have changed now, but then it was like it was like the man wouldn't have had to come home and cook dinner and pick the kids up.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: You just took it in your stride.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: But I think one of the themes um often spoken about is that there's no point in complaining about your position, especially at that time, but rather just getting on with what you have to do and show what you can do, and that that's your best toolbox in a way.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think people are expressing themselves a lot more, and obviously men and women are sharing the load a lot more.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so tell me a bit about that.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: Look, I think that's absolutely right, but I think the other thing that I do need to say is it was my choice.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, it wasn't, you know, I had um a wonderful, very supportive, successful husband.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, so there was no pressure on me to do this.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's quite important.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's right.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: And also Dad was quite progressive in that sense, in that he completely respected and revered what you were doing.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: And not all the men were like that.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: And there would have been a lot of men threatened by what, you know, that role that you were taking on.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: But he was always really supportive.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I I think that's right.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: It's something that that we've reflected on over the years.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he was totally preoccupied with his world and his work, which was also very demanding.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: He couldn't really support me, um, but he certainly supported me in the sense that he was never critical, never judgment of what I was trying to do.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: So he was supportive in that sense, but he also um was very preoccupied um with his own world and making a living and providing for the family.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: As it turned out, then uh I was doing the same thing.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: So that's worked pretty well.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Pretty good teamwork.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: Tell me, so then you went to the bar, and that obviously had some extraordinarily rewarding experiences as well, as you say, because you got to not only be intellectually challenged, but you got to reach really good outcomes and sometimes not so good outcomes for your clients, which requires, you know, I don't know, it's quite an emotional area that you worked in, predominantly family law at the coal face of some pretty tough stuff from domestic violence to custody issues.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: How did you cope when you had to deal with some pretty tough stories?
26:13
SPEAKER_00: It's not always a pleasant place to be.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: So, how did you navigate that?
26:17
SPEAKER_00: And how did you protect yourself from that emotionally disturbing and at times daunting experiences?
26:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, I suppose fundamentally I really liked helping people getting out of the mess that they were in.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: And virtually everyone, every client I had had some sort of a mess, otherwise, they wouldn't have been there.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Even then, I think that um uh a very experienced um Queen's counsel had said to me very early in my years at the bar uh never never take if you take on a case, only fight the case, actually, only take it to court if you're pretty sure you're going to win it.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: And otherwise try and settle it.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: And it was very, very good advice.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I did take that advice, and it still makes sense to me today.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: You don't you don't fight a losing case.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: That's a waste of everybody's time.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: See if you can get some resolution to it.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: And that's something I've learned later on in my career as well.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: But it was a very, very good advice that I was given.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you certainly didn't want to see a client in court when you didn't have to.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: But what about your personal experiences?
27:31
SPEAKER_00: How did you protect yourself emotionally from some of the tougher themes that were intrinsic to what you were doing?
27:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, things that you had to see and hear, was that something you got better at?
27:42
SPEAKER_00: Was it down to a capacity to separate yourself from what was going on, to compartmentalize?
27:49
SPEAKER_01: I think that I do think that that's a challenge.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, and of course, as you know, your father was a psychiatrist and I was a barrister.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, and we um didn't really uh have a discussion about that, but he his work was his work and mine was mine, and we virtually never discussed each other's problems in the world of work.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: And I think that was a very positive thing.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: And I the other thing I learned to do was, which you can't do today if you work from home, but I basically left my work um at the court or in my chambers.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: So I didn't get home.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: I just by the time I got home, I was facing um a barrage of children with a whole lot of other issues, and um that's where I landed.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: And so I whatever I'd done with the day would be waiting for me again the next day.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: But I didn't, I didn't let it keep me awake at night.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, interesting.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think that maybe in a strange way, having that homework delineation ensured that you had a separate experience and you delineated carefully between the two.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: Did you find that the men did the same?
28:58
SPEAKER_00: Or do you find that the women, because they were multitasking, particularly your friends who were working at the bar, were better equipped to do so?
29:06
SPEAKER_00: They could do that separation more effectively, or is that too generalizing?
29:12
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's said that women are pretty good at multitasking.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I don't know, I think that's probably changed a bit though now, because I think that men and women play um uh different but sort of the same roles with within a family.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: Um it was much more delineated in um in my time, where um, you know, the women went to hospital, had the babies, um, and the husband was at work.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that in a way sort of, you know, it makes sense.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: It was just a different world that we live in.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's been progress.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: I think it's much better.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: There's much more sharing uh today.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: Working from home, I think, is a whole other story, which will be interesting to see how that develops, because I think there are certainly some benefits about going away from home, keeping home as a bit of a sacred place, a bit of a sanctuary, and going to work in a different place and having um the camaraderie of people you're working with.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, but that's been my experience, and I really enjoyed all of that.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: And then to come home and leave the work at work, I found was that worked for me and for Tim.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: And so tell me, working in family law, you witnessed the first changes in domestic violence legislation, the introduction of the Family Violence Act in 1989.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: Yet, as you mentioned, when we chatted, that women would call the police and they would respond with something along the lines of, oh, it's just a domestic issue.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, it was a different time and quite a challenging time, and still is, as you can see in the news at the moment, it's still a really serious issue.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: But when you were working in family law, you must have seen and heard through some pretty vulnerable stories the challenges that women were facing with domestic violence issues, which are once again at the forefront of our minds with a number of shocking stories this week.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: Do you think anything has changed much since that 1989 act?
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, I know there's been amendments since then, but do you think we're making any progress in dealing with these issues?
31:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think look, this became um uh quite a major focus for me um when I became a magistrate, which was in 1991, um, because it was just after the Family Violence Act had um come in in Victoria, and people were coming um conscious of the seriousness of family violence.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: And and before that, it it had been said the police were not trained to understand that this was a criminal act that was occurring um within the family, and it's not acceptable, uh, and it needs intervention.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: But prior to that, um there was a uh a police, a female police commissioner uh who was appointed, um, who I think had quite a big impact on the recognition, um, and there were uh a lot of family violence resources set up and there were safe houses established.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: So this was the beginning of the change.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: And if you ask me what's changed, I think it's the recognition and acceptance that this is a serious issue.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's what we're dealing with is not most families.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: Most families are not exposed to this sort of behaviour.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: This is criminal behaviour, and it needs to be dealt with in a criminal way.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: And it was the in 1989, that was the beginning of intervention orders.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: And I think in New South Wales, they're apprehended violence orders and throughout the world, given various names.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: But there is now a way to uh stop this or attempt to stop this behaviour, and at least to recognize that it's not acceptable.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: And prior to that, I don't think it was really given proper recognition.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's a whole issue in itself.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: So it was really an interesting time for you becoming a magistrate, as you say, in 1991, just after that act had been established.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: So you got to see the coal phase of that transition.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: And so you'd have cases before you in the court, obviously broad spectrum, but many of them would have that tinge of particularly custody issues of family violence.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Was this regular in your court and what sort of frequency?
33:37
SPEAKER_00: And is it something that you felt challenged by?
33:42
SPEAKER_00: Uh, because it seemed to be quite a regular occurrence.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: There's a huge amount of um crime.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so uh one of the things I really liked about the change from um being a barrister was suddenly being, in a sense, thrown at the deep end yet again, um, and not many women there still at that time, in fact, just a handful of women.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, there were no women on virtually any of the courts in Australia um in 1991, which is just extraordinary if you think of where we are now.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: So there has been a great deal of change.
34:21
SPEAKER_01: No women on the county court, the Supreme Court, and of course, now the Chief Justice of the High Court is a female, Chief Justice of Victorian Supreme Court is a female, um, there's been a female Chief Justice of the Family Court.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: So that's all changed.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: So when you first started, uh having women on the bench uh was not commonplace, um, although it's much more common now, which is great.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, but do you think the changes that uh women bring by being in the workforce and particularly on the bench, do you think that that is helping the discussion and the perspective and giving uh uh context and perspective to the way we treat women in the court system?
35:05
SPEAKER_01: Look, I think I think that um it was just part of a transition.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was probably uh a bit of a shock for some at the time, particularly for some men who'd always been um exclusively the ones on the bench in any court.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: But very quickly, I think there was a great acceptance of men and women working together um collaboratively, in a sense, being able to talk about issues and bring a different perspective.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: And I must say I've found that been very effective, really, throughout that part of my career.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the things I've really enjoyed.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, the the men listen to the women and the women listen to the men.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: You've always had that philosophy, and I like that.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: You see that both have a role to play, and you have great respect equally for both.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: In fact, the very role of a magistrate is obviously to be independent and fair and deliver justice.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: So, male or female, that is their obligation.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: But having females now throughout the court system in a more prevalent way, would that redress the perspective in terms of diversity?
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that's working?
36:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you take an oath of office when you're appointed to a court to deal with all cases without fear, favor, or affection.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: And everybody's uh takes the same oath.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: And generally that's what people abide by.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: And um, if there's any reason they can't feel that they can deal with a case independently, then they should take themselves off that case.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: And do you think now with the discussion and changes uh in the family court, do you have a view on what's going on at the moment?
36:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, um, I think it's it is quite a fraught situation at the moment because I think that the um resources in the family court have been diminished.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, and of course, what was originally the federal magistrates court is now the federal circuit court, and these two courts have been merged and it's very early days to see um exactly how that's all going to work because this is such a major, major factor in our society to protect families and children and to give them an opportunity to get a hearing before a judge if that's what they need.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: Could you elaborate a little bit in terms of do you see this as a financially driven government strategy?
37:32
SPEAKER_00: Is it coming from a place of trying to create a better system or is it driven by, shall we say, economic restraint?
37:38
SPEAKER_00: What are the motives behind these changes and do you think they're going to be effective?
37:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's an interesting question, because um resources are always a factor and politics is a factor.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: Um so uh look, I if if I just took that in a positive way, um, because I don't know the answer to it at this time, um, because uh there are huge delays in the family law system at the moment.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's partly because of COVID, um, and the courts have been limited in their capacity function.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think also uh philosophically, it probably needs a rethink because people are really struggling to get their situations resolved.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, as you probably know, the magistrates court does have jurisdiction to deal with some family law matters, and that's quite a good thing because that's throughout the country, throughout Australia, and there are magistrates' courts in every region and town throughout the country.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, but the magistrates aren't necessarily particularly focused on family law, and of course, they have they also have very heavy demands on them in terms of um crime, which has to be dealt with, and civil disputes, and and whole other lot, and coroner's court matters, so there are a whole lot of other matters that have to be dealt with.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think we've seen the answer yet to resolving family law issues between families.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: But as you know, one tiny little um way that I think there can be some assistance and support is through mediation, and I have found that to be very effective.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: And I've done that, as you know, been involved in that um since I retired from the magistrates court about 10 years ago.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: It's interesting because you know, you've been working as a mediator with the Federal Circuit Court, which your profession focuses on resolution and diplomacy.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: It's not combative or you know, adversarial, it's about healing and trying to find a solution.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: It's very different to the role of a barrister, where you represent one side of the story and you go into the court in a different role.
40:02
SPEAKER_00: How have you found that transition?
40:04
SPEAKER_00: My observation is that you're good as a mediator because generally you like diplomacy and resolution, and that's sort of fits with the way I've observed the way you deal with things in general.
40:14
SPEAKER_00: But do you think that's been uh a difficult transition?
40:18
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely interesting, because um, as you know, um, when I retired from the magistrates court, I went up to Bond University and um studied mediation there.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: And one of the first things that some of the people who were taking the course there said to me is, Well, you know, judges really don't make good mediators because judges are directive and they like making decisions, and so they're not really conciliatory.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, I like to think that perhaps I proved them wrong in a sense with that, um, because uh I do find uh sitting with people where um often people come into a mediation and they say, Oh, I couldn't sleep last night.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: I was just so um concerned about what was going to happen.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: And when they realize that um sometimes there might be an intervention order against one of the partners, and I quickly resolve that and say, Well, you don't have to be face to face.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: In fact, you can't be, but we can still, they come with their lawyers and we can we can deal with it.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, and we do, and we nearly always settle these cases.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, mum, you do have a very good strike rate and tend to settle most things in that context.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: And really, you're working at the coal face of humanity.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of what you do requires arm's length structural, administrative approaches, but also great empathy to try and find that resolution.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: Mediation tends to be a much more intimate experience from what I've seen and what I've learned.
41:49
SPEAKER_00: Do you agree with that?
41:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: It's one of the things I always say to people in mediation um, look, this is in your hands.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not going to be a perfect solution because you get this is what I've been doing is mainly property.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, issue, but often when the property cases resolve, then people seem to say, well, we can talk about the children as well, and things start to settle down.
42:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh look, it is a very different situation, and that's what I say to people.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, you can uh take this into your own hands.
42:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, you've got lawyers, they always come with their lawyers, sometimes with a barrister, uh, and we can try and resolve this, and you can walk out of how here three hours later, and we can just send it off to the court, and the court will approve it, and that will be the end of it.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: And that's actually what happens.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: And people are absolutely overwhelmed at the fact they can get that sort of a result, but it does take quite a lot of give and take, and um but it's not as expensive as going to court because the case has got to be prepared, um, barristers have to come up, they've got to get their case on.
43:01
SPEAKER_01: So it does, in my view, that's a very effective process.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: And also, I suppose there's an expediency that, you know, the backlog is um certainly helped.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, they can get resolution through a mediation process because they're not waiting two years to get their case heard.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: And from what I understand, there's a lot of benefits.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you've seen a lot of benefits for custody issues because it's quite a crisis for children when they're stuck between parents who are feuding and there's no resolution in place.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: In a form uh that I think is quite effective, mediation seems to be able to um find resolution somewhat more expediently.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: So I'm just curious, do you think that this is the future?
43:48
SPEAKER_00: And do you hope that mediation becomes uh even more prevalent?
43:54
SPEAKER_01: Very effective mediation in children's matters as well.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: So it is it It's in my view, it's a very effective process.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: It's interesting because you and I often talk about this, but you mentioned that one of the biggest issues for many women is how to sustain independence when going through milestones of motherhood and pregnancy and mothering children.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: And you did reflect on maybe pressing some stay-at-home government motherhood support, not dissimilar to JobKeeper, which I thought was really innovative.
44:26
SPEAKER_00: Could you reflect on how you think that could work and why you think it's important?
44:31
SPEAKER_01: Look, I think that uh of course, you know, we come back to economics again and uh budget, um, but it does seem to me over a lifetime um that I've always been aware that pregnancy, um, childbirth, and child rearing of very young children is economically undervalued.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: And until we give some recognition to the fact that this is a provision of the next generation for the community.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: And this is a way we we should be supporting people to have their children in a safe environment, have some independent protection during that short period of time before children are school age.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: I it just makes sense to me, but um it I don't I'm not sure um whether our economic managers would see it make sense, but that would be my position.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: I tend to agree with you.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: I think many women have their children and don't have the capacity to continue to work at the same time, and so they may lose professional uh traction, you know, in a way.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's eight years of their professional journey that gets put on hold.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know there are working barristers and women in different arenas who've had to stop and have their kids and chose to stop, um, but wanted to have the time with them uh while also not losing their place in their professional journey.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: So that's an interesting discussion.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: Um I think the idea is quite innovative to uh include or develop some career projection, protection of sorts, uh, so that women can stop and be with their kids, but also know that they can slock back in easily and be financially protected during that time.
46:28
SPEAKER_00: It's definitely a discussion worth continuing, I think, putting on the agenda.
46:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, I know family's always been paramount for you, mum, and being married to dad for almost 60 years this year has been a pivotal anchor.
46:40
SPEAKER_00: Talk to me about that and how you've juggled career and home life, which we've touched on briefly, but also what are some of the key lessons that you and dad have learned in both working full-time, raising successful children, and juggling elderly parents?
46:54
SPEAKER_00: Do you have any little gems you can throw this way?
46:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, um, it is interesting when you look back and you reflect, because I said to you um earlier that this was not the grand plan, because life sometimes just takes its own course and you work within the way it is developing.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think to have a strong relationship is an enormous benefit.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, and to be able to communicate within that relationship.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we talk virtually every day about various issues, as you would know.
47:30
SPEAKER_01: And if it's not just the two of us, when the children were all at home, we would always probably have breakfast together and certainly have dinner together, and we we discuss life and issues and politics and philosophy and whatever else it might be.
47:44
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's enabled us to um maintain a very strong relationship through all sorts of decisions that we've had to make um over a lifetime uh about ourselves, um, each other, ourselves as a couple, the children, all of the children.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: And now we've got this ever-expanding, wonderful family, and we feel so privileged to be here, to have the opportunity to still have that communication.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: So uh I do remember many, many years ago when I hadn't been working all that long, and I remember someone coming up to me and saying, Well, are you still working?
48:26
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Yes.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: And they said, Well, what about the children?
48:30
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, what about the children?
48:33
SPEAKER_01: And um I think it's quite possible to work, as long as you always keep your eye out for what is happening with the children, and there'll always be ups and downs, be ups and downs in a relationship, ups and downs with your children, with the grandchildren.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: But I still love talking with all of you and all of the grandchildren, and they come and visit us and they talk to us, and we love that.
48:57
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a good point.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: Communication is something you're very good at.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: You're definitely not short of a good chat.
49:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you're also always open to learning new things, which I think really relates to what we were talking about before.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, very in theme.
49:12
SPEAKER_00: Also, I just wanted to touch on uh the time when you're a board member at the Montefiori Aged Care Facility.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, like you were quite involved with that.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: With an aging population of which you are a part, how do you think our society is managing growing older?
49:26
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that we're getting better at it?
49:29
SPEAKER_00: Because when you look at the statistics, we really need to address the aging population in the way we take care of our elderly and community members.
49:36
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not sure we've got it right yet.
49:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
49:39
SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
49:40
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a whole, whole subject in itself, isn't it?
49:44
SPEAKER_01: We do have an aging population.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, and part of that, I think, is due to the fact that um our health system in Australia is um probably just about the best in the world.
49:56
SPEAKER_01: So we have wonderful access to providing good health for our community.
50:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, but with the aging population, I think there are a number of factors that really have to be thought about.
50:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, one is the care of people as they're getting older, um, the other is their financial position and their support, um, particularly if people retire earlier.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh and the other area that I've been interested in is elder mediation, uh, which is part of the mediation process that I've been participating in.
50:36
SPEAKER_01: But it's a very important area, I think, where if there may be a conflict within a family uh as to what is to happen, there will be, there can be an independent mediator can sit down with the family and try and resolve some of the issues uh as to what should happen in terms of the care of the age, in terms of their financial situation.
51:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and in fact, um there is something called elder abuse, which is um awful to think about, but um, it does exist, where uh people might say, well, um Mum lives in a lovely home, but she's on her own and she doesn't need that big house anymore.
51:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, we'll move her into something else.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: And that can be elder abuse, and uh there's a lot of work, a lot of work being done.
51:30
SPEAKER_01: There's um someone from the University of uh South Australia who's been very involved in this whole area of older mediation, and there is an international organization which is set up in Toronto, um, which also um they've come and spoken to people like me attending um alder mediation seminars and conferences.
51:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh so it's it's alive and well, it's a very important subject for the future, I think.
52:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh important subject for your generation too.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
52:06
SPEAKER_00: You mentioned the future.
52:07
SPEAKER_00: What are your hopes?
52:08
SPEAKER_00: What are some things that are first and foremost in your mind regarding the future?
52:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, it's interesting when you get to this time of life, and you've also got to remember, and you're well aware, that I lost my mother when she was not quite 60.
52:24
SPEAKER_01: So um I'm feeling very privileged to be the age that I am and still be able to um have lovely times with you and the rest of the family and with my husband.
52:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh, so the future, the future for me is really to watch all of you um doing the most amazing things, children, grandchildren.
52:49
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and it's it's very, I think despite COVID and despite the problems that have um come up, and I don't think we're finished with it by any means yet, but I love the enthusiasm and positivity of the next generation.
53:05
SPEAKER_01: So it's to watch what's going to happen with the next generation for as long as we can.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, mum, on that note, I'd like to thank you so much for joining me on the What I've Known podcast.
53:15
SPEAKER_00: It's been an absolute pleasure, and I've loved hearing all of your words of wisdom, as I often do.
53:22
SPEAKER_00: But this time I get to share with all my listeners who I'm sure will love and appreciate your lessons learned and your advice, many of whom often ask, can I just ring your mom?
53:32
SPEAKER_00: It's so funny.
53:34
SPEAKER_00: So happy Mother's Day and lots of love.
53:37
SPEAKER_00: And thank you for joining me.
53:39
SPEAKER_00: And look forward to many more gems of wisdom.
53:44
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Deb.
53:45
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for the privilege of being on your What I've Learned podcast.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: And happy Mother's Day to you as well.
53:55
SPEAKER_00: So this month, my weekly podcasts come to you courtesy of the Witchery White Shirt Day campaign, raising funds for the Ovarian Cancer Research Foundation.
54:05
SPEAKER_00: Shirts created by designers, including Tony Matacheski, are gracing everyone from ambassador's comedian Celeste Barber to politicians like Julia Bishop.
54:14
SPEAKER_00: So go grab your own white shirt from Witchery and Camilla and Mark stores across the country.
54:19
SPEAKER_00: Every dollar helps fund urgently needed research into the treatment of this insidious disease, which affects over 300,000 women daily worldwide.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: Yet no early detection test exists.
54:31
SPEAKER_00: For the sake of our sisters, daughters, mothers, and grandmothers, let's get this early detection test to clinical trials in five years and save millions of women globally.
54:40
SPEAKER_00: We can do this.
54:42
SPEAKER_00: Ovaries, let's talk about them.
54:47
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly, with new episodes released every Tuesday.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
54:59
SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
55:02
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind and curious.
55:05
SPEAKER_00: Love it.